-144

Moderator Note: We appreciate the community's feedback on this and are not moving forward with this rule as currently proposed. We still recommend not leaving these comments, and moderators will delete them if seen or flagged (which has always been the case).

We'll get to the rule stuff in a moment, but we, the moderator team, need to start off with an apology. We've been wrestling with this issue for some time. We've modified some existing Meta posts to match our policy shift, but we never really made that obvious to the community at large. We've been enforcing it without that clear communication and it's frustrated some users who were genuinely unaware. To that end, we're sorry. This is an attempt to clarify what we're wanting to do and why. Please take this as an opportunity to understand our aims and add input on this proposed policy change.


What we're trying to change

Our guidance isn't terribly different from this post by Martijn in 2015

You have two options:

  • Flag the comments as No longer needed; badgering for votes, bounties and accepts is not what comments are meant for.

  • If there is a widespread pattern, flag one of posts by the user illustrating the problem, and explain the pattern in a in need of moderator intervention message.

What changed was we removed this section below that

* Teaching new users how accepting works is fine. If you posted an answer, the user gives you a hearty thanks! comment and it turns out they are pretty new and never accepted an answer before, feel free to show them how accepting works. Personally I use

Glad to have been of help! Feel free to accept my answer if you feel it was useful to you. :-)

Why we're wanting to change it

  1. Such comments are noise
    This part really hasn't changed. Stack Overflow continues to grow in moderation needs, and the less noise we can have generated, the better. Last year moderators removed over 400,000 comments. While some of that includes bulk removals and moving comments to chat, it doesn't account for all of it. All those comments must be reviewed by a human, and that number doesn't account for comment flags reviewed and declined.

  2. Voting on and accepting answers are, and always have been, optional
    We don't want to see users pressured into doing either. Having users call attention to it when they've made a post brings a sense of pressure to do it, regardless of the merits.

  3. The system now guides users in this area
    The system provides suitable guidance to new users in terms of voting and accepting answers. Martijn's original post was made when such guidance didn't really exist. Both the tour and tooltips cover this

  4. Accepted answers are not as important anymore for visibility
    As of Sept 2021, accepted answers are no longer pinned. While having the green checkmark helps, it is no longer the main metric for how useful the community sees an answer (as this comic once noted).

What we would look for

Comments that are

  • Asking for upvotes
  • Asking for accepts
  • Linking to the Help center page about the subject, Meta.SE, or any other resource describing voting and accepts
  • Any other roundabout way of implying that the user should somehow reward the post with voting or an accept

How enforcement would work

We generally will overlook the odd mention here or there by new users. They routinely add comments for us to clean up anyways ("Thanks!", "This works!", "+1", etc.). We tend to notice veteran users, however, and will hand out warnings first. Our hope is to not have any suspensions, save the routine violators who insist on continuing to remind others to vote or accept.

Once the community has discussed this, we hope to have another formal post with a final rule that is placed into , as we did for this prior (now obsolete) rule.

Discussion is welcome.

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  • 99
    This seems way too draconian. You're prioritizing the clueless newbs over the seasoned users who are trying to make the site better. Commented May 19, 2022 at 3:52
  • 32
    In what way is any "prioritization" occurring, @Mark? Our primary goal here is to reduce the amount of noisy comments that waste everyone's time: they waste the time of users who have to post them, they waste the time of everyone who looks at the Q&A and stumbles over them instead of useful, relevant content, and they waste the time of flaggers and/or moderators who have to delete them. There is no reason to, and multiple disadvantages entailed in, sharing this kind of information via comments. It is better provided as just-in-time help by the system, which it already is, obsoleting comments.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 4:25
  • 45
    @CodyGray if that system were truly obsoleting the comments we wouldn't be having this discussion. Commented May 19, 2022 at 4:33
  • 14
    I even see a significant percentage of the users who leave these types of comments stating explicitly (or at least implying) that they are less willing to help the user because they haven't accepted answers. That's so horribly wrong that I don't even know where to begin, and it's a large part of why moderator attention started getting focused on this particular matter. Contrary to what some appear to believe, this site isn't about reputation or badges or shiny fake Internet bling. It's not even about helping specific people. It's about building a knowledge repository. Accepts don't do that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:08
  • 16
    We absolutely do not care about the contest. What we care about is the content. Going above and beyond to produce a high-quality answer should be done because you, too, care about the content, and, in general, our overarching goal of creating a high-quality knowledge-base style resource for people with questions about programming. If the contest happens to produce high-quality content, I guess that's good. But if the contest is getting in the way and producing noise, then that's bad. Even if you want to treat this as a contest/game, then let's say that such comments are cheating.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:37
  • 19
    It doesn't feel much like a policy change discussion so much as it feels like a policy change announcement. Whatever the new rule is, just please make it clear where the line is.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:44
  • 36
    @CodyGray - Hmm, you don't care about the contest. Then you're shooting yourselves in the foot for one of the things that makes this place work. I guess I really ought to consider taking my services elsewhere. But, then nobody here on Meta seems to care what one a top 50 reputation user thinks.
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 6:46
  • 87
    @CodyGray - Well, if you don't care about the contest, but do care about the content, then somehow you must think that the contest has nothing at all to do with the creation of content. If you really think that, then why not just get rid of reputation entirely. If the contest is meaningless and useless, then reputation must therefore also be meaningless. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water here. The contest is a means to an end. Sure, the content is the end game, but the contest is part of how you get good content.
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 6:55
  • 23
    That's never been allowed, @RobC. It's noise subject for removal according to the editing guidelines.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:10
  • 14
    Well... I'm stunned. I really thought this already was disallowed!
    – Gimby
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:46
  • 25
    The whole "noise" argument has never made much sense to me. The comments aren't what you look at when you're actually looking for the Answer. They are just an extra. And they already get automatically filtered by default if there are very many of them. It seems to me that, if the mods want less work with comments, it would make more sense to just deprioritize deleting comments and let the built in system handle it when it hides them.
    – trlkly
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 11:52
  • 17
    @CodyGray Also, we know they're not being bullied because the comments do not have bullying language or otherwise attempt to force someone to act. Treating politely worded comments as possible bullying minimizes actual bullying.
    – trlkly
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:25
  • 24
    This is the wrong decision; maybe one day when the system actually does a good job at educating users on this and enforcing it automatically, we can implement such a rule. But until then, it's nuking a problem from orbit when only a framing hammer is needed.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:38
  • 12
    @CodyGray So instead of going to the absurd extreme of banning linking a help page, figure out what constitutes bad pressure and forbid that. I agree that attaching any kind of threat or incentive to the vote or accept would be a good thing to ban. I'm not sure what else is a problem. Displaying a pattern of doing it all the time rather than on a situational basis could also be something you would look for. And if something is border line? Probably best to leave it alone. Getting users to vote and accept is vital to the site. I'd rather err on the side of them getting informed.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:15
  • 12
    I just noticed that the linked answer had already been changed before this question was posted. This means that this topic isn't a proposal any more, it's an announcement and the mods are expecting the community to just accept the mods new rules, even when it's been terribly received. We're used to Stack Overflow doing this, but not the mods. I don't agree with the linked answer being amended until after the proposal is actually applied; this sets a terribly precedence of do now, ask later.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:06

25 Answers 25

238

There are a ton of new users who leave comments like "thanks, that worked!" on the answer to their question without accepting it. That's exactly what accepting an answer is supposed to be for. In cases like these, it's abundantly clear that the asker doesn't realize this. I don't think a policy of "don't tell new users how the site is supposed to work" is a good one.

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    @CodyGray - In context, a comment to the tune of "that worked" nearly always means the OP is no longer seeking additional advice on the topic and is moving on to their next issue. If they still have issues, the comment will have a "but" in it or will raise some other aspect of the question. The bar for a checkmark is not "the best possible answer to the question". In theory no single answer here on stackoverflow ever meets that criteria as every single answer could theoretically be improved somehow. So, that's a ridiculous bar for an acceptance.
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:27
  • 7
    @CodyGray - A more appropriate bar for acceptance is that the answer fully explains a solution to the question (thus no future guidance is thought to be needed) and is the best of any answers offered so far. If an even better answer arrives later, the acceptance can be moved to that new answer if appropriate.
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:29
  • 6
    How do you know that people don't know about this? You are assuming that because after you leave a comment telling them to accept an answer, they go ahead and do so. That doesn't prove that they didn't know about the benefits or inducements for accepting. It could equally well mean that they felt pressured by your comment into accepting an answer. That's not a positive outcome, and you can't disentangle that merely by looking at results. The user may well have made a tenuous decision not to accept an answer after the system told them they could do so, but didn't feel like defending it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:40
  • 51
    @CodyGray - I don't ever "tell" someone to accept an answer. You used that word, not me. I explain the process and advise that if they want to indicate to the community that their question has been answered, they can do so by clicking the checkmark to the left of the answer that helped them the most. And, in addition, as one who provides a lot of answers, I appreciate knowing if the OP thinks their question has been answered or not. So, I find the acceptance indicator a useful indicator on questions I haven't yet responded to. I find it distressing, you want to de-emphasize or remove it
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:32
  • 30
    @CodyGray - Does it matter to you at all that the more time I spend on Meta, the less time I want to spend on SO. Meta is hugely discouraging. I guess I'm reminded why I should stop visiting Meta. All it does is convince me that SO is being run by curators who have no sense of what made it successful in the first place and how it attracts people to write questions and how you attract, incent and reward people for writing great answers. The sense here is that curation is far, far more important than anything related to attracting questioners or encouraging answerers.
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:40
  • 10
    You're right about Meta being a place that is focused on content curation and improving the site. You're incorrect about these people forgetting what made SO successful in the first place. In fact, most of us who participate here are the people who made SO successful in the first place, and we accomplished it by posting high-quality content with extreme focus on curation. Yahoo Answers did the opposite; you can see how that turned out. We have plenty of people who write questions; we need spend no effort/focus on attracting more. Nor do we need more rewards. We need more quality and clean-up
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:02
  • 46
    @CodyGray - So you're trying to drop dirt from 7 years ago to prove a point? That isn't even "telling", it's asking. That's also not wording I use any more. But, you've just convinced me to abandon any future visits to Meta and perhaps even abandon my free contributions on SO. Once again, I wonder if the people who actually work for the company know who's minding the store here on Meta because it's really unhealthy for the long term health of SO. Bye.
    – jfriend00
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:12
  • 10
    @CodyGray, Are you wanting to restrict the tone of the such requests, or the requests themselves? I'm wary that a polite positive request that can help a user take part in the site in a way that they (and perhaps all of us) would appreciate would become automatically interpreted as 'online bullying'.
    – ouflak
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 9:50
  • 2
    @CodyGray comments like yours and that view point makes me wonder that we should have never removed "presume good faith". That point of view is sorely lacking any kind of charity towards those people that think they are informing others about such behavior.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:07
  • 2
    @CodyGray People forget sometimes (move on to something else after trying a solution, just forget to click it in excitement). New users don't always read the help. Bombarding people with enough automatic messages to combat these simple occurrences will just lead to ignoring the message. As long as people don't overdo it, these messages are harmless.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 19:39
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    @KevinB Then the individuals who are overdoing it should be addressed directly, rather than threatening everyone over it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 19:42
  • 6
    @KevinB Don't see how instigating another one here by instituting a nonsense policy is helping, then.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 19:44
  • 2
    @jpmc26 so mods should have just kept enforcing the policy without outlining it on meta? This isn't a new idea, begging for accepts/upvotes has always been frowned upon and routinely flagged.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 19:46
  • 4
    @KevinB The idea outlined in this post shouldn't be a policy to be enforced at all. A blanket ban doesn't even address the problem anyway. The only problem related to this is people encouraging misuse of the accept and voting features (probably usually by rep farmers). This entire discussion is based on an XY-problem.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 19:51
  • 4
    @CodyGray Regarding your first comment on this comment thread. I want to point out, that according to the tour Accepting doesn't mean it's the best answer, it just means that it worked for the person who asked. You are saying accepting "does mean a lot more than 'it worked'". I see this as either: 1. The tour has to be changed to reflect the meaning you are describing (this may be a reason not to quote it as a reliable resource for the time being) 2. "Thanks, it worked" literally means the same as accepting an answer.
    – Dugnom
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 13:22
191

We should have the system detect when a (new) user uses "Thanks" or "Thank you" in the comments, and show them a pop-up telling them to upvote/accept instead of thanking. A bit like what happens when we include +1 in the comments.

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    Indeed, several of the moderators think this is a good idea, after a similar solution was proposed internally a few days ago. We are currently discussing with staff about the possibility of implementing such a feature, almost exactly as you describe. The jury is still out regarding whether attempts to post these types of "thanks" comments should be blocked outright (as with "+1" comments, but with a far more helpful message), or whether they will just lead to a warning that can be bypassed if the poster insists. Probably, block vs. warning will be based on the length of the comment.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 4:27
  • 6
    Also worth noting that, as proposed to the CMs, a "far more helpful message" includes guidance to vote instead of commenting, in both the block and warning messages. Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:33
  • 13
    This, or something very much like it, is a necessary requirement before enforcing the rule described in the question above. If the system automatically coached new users about how the site works when they appear not to understand, I'd have no issues with the rule. On the tags I frequent, tons of users ask questions without having taken the tour.
    – Chris
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:04
  • 1
    I think exactly what @Chris says. With this rule you're trying to fix the consequences instead of solving the actual problem causing them: reminding askers to reward answerers for their help. And this solution should help to solve both problems, however there are still some askers who just leave without any "thanks".
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:34
  • "We should have the system detect when a (new) user uses "Thanks" or "Thank you" in the comments" the system deletes those with one single flag. That's why while you can find them if you look for them, you rarely see them. We should add the comments about "accept/up vote" to that list.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:40
  • 2
    More than this. Instead of a reminder to accept, the accept checkbox should automatically be clicked. Because how do you know an OP will see or heed the reminder?
    – user17242583
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:50
  • 6
    @richardec again, accepting is optional and therefore not required. Forcing accepts violates that principle. Also problematic for all parties involved if subjected to false positives (which will happen). Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:23
  • 1
    Indeed, it shouldn't be rocket science to implement some script blocking such comments. "if (comment.length<n AND comment.contains("thanks") then { block_comment(); inform_user_how_to_use_SO(); }".
    – Lundin
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:54
  • @Lundin there is already something of the sort, but it just allows you to remove the comment with a single flag.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 14:53
  • 1
    In favor. Are you going to turn this into a [feature-request] post?
    – Red
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 19:13
  • 1
    @AnnZen One of the moderators said they are already working on this. What benefit would a separate post provide for us? Commented May 21, 2022 at 4:44
  • 2
    We are, in fact, planning a formal feature request for this, since it (A) is something the mod team definitely still wants, and (B) seems to be something that the majority of the community supports. too. We're going to wait a few days before posting it. But the purpose of posting will be two-fold: (A) to get community buy-in, suggestions, etc., and (B) to create official documentation for and help push the feature to be implemented. Look for it soon-ish. :-)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 5:26
  • 1
    @CodyGray Horse before cart, aye.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 7:29
105

We really should use common sense with this rather than enforcing a blind rule. There's a difference between someone "begging" for votes or pressuring users into voting/accepting and someone trying to merely educate new users about the tools that the site provides for them to use instead of "thanks" comments or the like. If someone tries to do that using language that doesn't include any hint of pressure and does so regardless of who the owner of the answer is (i.e., doesn't have a pattern of posting such comments on their own answers, especially), then I honestly believe it's okay.

And no, I don't believe the system does a good job at informing new users about those tools. People who (only) post a "thank you; it works" comment probably didn't check the up/down vote buttons, much less the tooltips.

Now, I'm not really sure to what extent this rule will be enforced. Consider this recent comment1 of mine, for example:

The question is closed as duplicate because it has been answered before. Check the linked question. You'll find the same answer and other alternative solutions too. Feel free to upvote the answer(s) you find helpful.

With this new rule, are you saying that I should/will be "punished" for that?


1 Admittedly, that user wasn't new to the site but similar situations happen more often with new users.
—Also FYI, I was about to vote to close the question myself but Camilo beat me to it.

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    The context is always such that it is impossible to use language that "doesn't include any hint of pressure". If nothing else, the reputation disparity between an established user leaving these comments and a brand-new user who is receiving them creates a power dynamic where the new user feels pressured into taking action, even if they're not completely satisfied with all aspects of the answer. I have never once seen a comment of this nature that would fit the "no hint of pressure" bill. Ever. The example comment you posted is fine, just don't tell people how to vote (omit last sentence).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 2:29
  • "There's a difference between someone "begging" for votes or pressuring users into voting/accepting and someone trying to merely educate new users about the tools that the site provides for them to use instead of "thanks" comments or the like" - indeed, very much so. But the trouble is that people reading the comment with good intentions can see that as a validation to create their comments with questionable intentions behind them. "Oh, apparently it is fine to ask for upvotes / acceptance." I don't have faith in the fact that people can resist.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 10:29
  • (follow up: keeping in mind that the goal is to reduce moderator workload, not to define what is fair and unfair or right and wrong).
    – Gimby
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 10:31
  • @Gimby if that was the goal, they should not be adding things to their plate, but removing them. If they believe that such thing needs to be addressed, it has to be at system level.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:01
  • @ZevSpitz I would say that those comments should just be added to the one flag and gone rule that are applied to those that start with +1/-1.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:09
  • 9
    @CodyGray "reputation disparity between an established user leaving these comments and a brand-new user who is receiving them creates a power dynamic where the new user feels pressured into taking action - Not saying that I disagree, but I mean... you're assuming a new user even knows what the tiny little number near my username means, let alone cares about it to such an extent. Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:09
  • @MarcoBonelli To be fair, most new users (in my experience) do notice that. Reputation (and badges) on the user card are very prominent. They do stand out to new users to the point that some even confuse high rep users with mods. That said, I still don't think it's impossible to convey such a message without making the user feel pressured, but let's see what the community decides. I rarely leave such comments anyway.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:31
  • 2
    @41686d6564standsw.Palestine I also sometimes see new users mistake users for mods, but that's usually because they are performing mod-like actions - e.g. closing/flagging/whatever. I see the point though, and I also agree that there are still good ways to do this (like what's suggested in Ryan's answer below). Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:36
  • @41686d6564standsw.Palestine, agreed, though that card is shown for questions and answers. Reputation of users commenting is much less prominent (it shows up on hover, likely also if users are using accessibility tools, when somebody clicks over to their profile page, or, by association, when users are commenting on their own post).
    – Chris
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:36
  • @41686d6564standsw.Palestine thing is that that only works when it's your own answer, but this "rule" would apply to any post anywhere.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:16
  • 4
    It can't be denied that someone showing you a courtesy is reason for a large portion of the population to feel that they need to reciprocate. Let's stop calling it "pressure" though, that is overstating it and it has caused this meta post to go off the rails.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 10:15
  • I truly do not feel that calling it "pressuring" is anywhere close to an overstatement, @Gimby. That choice of a term already represents multiple strength-reductions on my part, and I'm not even sure it's strong enough. It's clear that many others do not see it as pressuring, based on this Meta discussion, but I continue to believe that's because they have already forgotten what the power dynamic feels like and/or are not looking at it objectively. If a waiter brings you a drink, you thank them, and they reply with, "Good service can be rewarded with a tip, sir"… that seems gauche & directed
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:02
  • 3
    @CodyGray I find it more likely that it is not pressure but impression. People are impressed a little too easily. Big numbers tend to do that, as do status symbols like white coats or "mod" labels. That's how people tick, you can't really change it. And you can't really say that Stack Overflow makes it hard for people to be impressed, the big numbers and labels are put front and center.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 15:08
  • 3
    @CodyGray 1. I suspect you're influenced by a selection bias. As a mod, most of the comments you see are going to be through flags, which means you'll probably be seeing more egregious examples than is actually typically. 2. It is amazingly ironic that a moderator would complain about a power differential. Consider yours compared to us. You have repeatedly denigrated our motives as a community here. How do you think that makes us feel? 3. Correlations mean nothing. Summary statistics can only disprove a claim, not prove one. There are infinite third factors possibly at play in a correlation.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 16:09
  • 3
    4. Not all pressure is bad. Pressure that leads to good behavior is positive. 5. A dinner you pay for is not comparable to an answer received for free, and a tip is not comparable to an accept that costs the asker nothing. Nor is a volunteer site where we can use all the help we can get comparable to a restaurant where you pay for service. Nor is encouraging users to participate in the site's normal operation after they've already taken steps to do so the same as asking for a tip.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 16:10
79

An alternative proposal:

Comments asking for acceptance must be in response to a comment suggesting that the solution worked, and must link to /help/someone-answers. Asking for upvotes is not allowed.

Note: this is a suggestion from me, personally. It does not necessarily represent the views of anyone else on the moderation team.

The following would be allowed:

  1. Thanks, that worked! – Asker

    @Asker I'm glad it helped! Please see What should I do when someone answers my question? – Answerer

  2. Thanks, that worked! – Asker

    @Asker If this solution solved your problem, please feel free to accept it by ticking the checkmark to the left of the answer. – Answerer

The following would not be allowed:

  1. Asking for upvotes in any situation.
  2. "Poking" the asker to review solutions if they don't accept an answer.
  3. Leaving comments linking the help center article or any other suggestion that answers should be accepted if the asker has not specifically indicated that something works.

Additionally, if this proposal were accepted, I would suggest that anything linking that help center article should be deleted with a single "No longer needed" flag, the way that short "thanks" comments are today.

Finally, it would be strongly encouraged for answerers to flag such "thanks" comments as "No longer needed" if the asker does accept the answer, as well as periodically going through and self-deleting older comments requesting acceptance.


Reasoning: It seems pretty clear that whatever guidance the system is giving isn't working consistently. Users who post these "thanks" comments are posting noise that should be using the system's built-in method of indicating a solution that worked: accepting it. Many seem appreciative when told how to accept answers, and indicate that they were unaware of the feature.

Accepting an answer is more than a way of giving the answer's author reputation: it's a way to tell the next person that the answer was useful. That's why we require an upvoted or accepted answer before a question is allowed to be used as a duplicate target: because otherwise, there's no indication that any of the answers are any good. Educating these users teaches them not to leave these comments next time.

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    This is (almost) exactly my view on the subject. Two points though: 1) "Asking for upvotes in any situation [is not allowed]" I also agree that asking someone to upvote your own answer isn't appropriate, but it can be warranted in other situations (see my answer for an example). 2) "I would suggest that anything linking that help center article should be deleted with a single "No longer needed" flag" This doesn't guarantee that the asker will have seen the comment. There isn't really a perfect solution for this but perhaps a single NLN flag from the asker should delete the comment?
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 1:47
  • 2
    Incidentally, this answer pretty much aligns with Martijn Pieters's answer referred to in the question above (including the part that was recently removed from the answer).
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 1:55
  • 3
    @41686d6564 1) That is, admittedly, a bit of an edge case. Personally, I'd still stick to "don't suggest upvoting, ever" if only because it makes enforcing the rule incredibly complex (what if one of the duplicate's answers is yours? what if there's a chain of duplicates and you have an answer somewhere down the line?).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 1:56
  • 1
    @41686d6564 2) In an ideal world where there's infinite dev time to implement my whims, I'd say they should auto-delete after a week. In the world we live in, I think the best option is one that uses a system that already exists. As for a single flag from the asker deleting it, I'd put the chances of an asker who doesn't know about the "accept" button figuring out that they need to click the flag icon that says something about "serious problems or moderator attention" and select "No longer needed" at approximately zero.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 1:56
  • 1
    I'd go the other way and disallow such comments anyways (even with your caveat) if there is inherent conflict of interest (i.e. the commenter posted an answer on the Q&A). This is straightforward to enforce and can even be automated to a degree. Given the common argument I've seen from defenders of those comments is helping the site and not fear of losing out on reputation, I think they should be fine with abstaining in cases where conflict of interest occurs. I, of course, can be mistaken about the goal of such comments, so let's see.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 2:01
  • 4
    I have to note that "accepted" has never meant, and should not mean "answered". It only meant "what the author found most useful to them personally", which neither indicates whether another answer will receive less attention, nor does it say anything about the quality of the answer (read: a pointless relic of the forum times).
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 4:37
  • 7
    Asking for upvotes is never OK.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 6:49
  • 3
    This proposal doesn't really solve the issue with comment noise. Users don't go through their comment history regularly.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:36
  • 1
    @Dharman requiring a particular link to be included would allow easy bulk cleanup by making them trivially searchable for either moderators or users casting NLN flags.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:37
  • 2
    Yes, but they would still be visible to many users who it doesn't concern
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:43
  • 4
    @MarcoBonelli assuming the moderator is deleting from the comments section, it's 1 click per comment. Here's what it looks like.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:30
  • 7
    @Dharman "Noisy comments" is an overblown issue anyway. The site's original philosophy was developed in opposition to 40-message threads that contain 2 important tidbits of information (ironically, that probably isn't getting enough attention). 2 or 3 fluff comments on a post do no harm to anyone, even the readability of questions & answers. If mods are spending too much of their time deleting "noise" comments that are harmless, then you're wasting your time on something that just isn't important. A better answer would be to limit flagging to situations that pose a bigger problem.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 4:19
  • 4
    @CodyGray After several weeks, it's vastly more likely the asker simply forgot about the question. I've certainly seen that, and the response to my reminder was quite positive.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:32
  • 4
    @CodyGray "You don't have the right to tell a new user that either your answer is perfect and needs accepted, or their question sucks and needs clarified." No, it implies that if none of the answers provided solve the issue, there's a mismatch between how the answerers understood the question and the reality. The only way to resolve that mismatch is with clarification. Your interpretation is your bias against answerers. You're the one injecting an incredibly negative set of assumptions about the someone's thoughts and character.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:33
  • 2
    I like this approach, but re: "I would suggest that anything linking that help center article should be deleted with a single "No longer needed" flag" I think that's setting the bar too low for deletion. It's an unfortunate fact that there are people on SO who, seeing that exchange on an answer that isn't theirs, won't hesitate to flag the comment to make it go away. The sad reality is that a large subset of people genuinely are that petty and self-serving. Leave it to the usual number, which is already small (like 3?). Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:28
50

The example you chose to cite is poorly chosen to highlight an obvious self-serving post. The policy would also impact this other, more neutrally worded comment that I've quoted verbatim ... possibly only once, maybe twice, after verifying the new user in question had never upvoted nor accepted anything. I'll quote that here:

If a new user has never accepted an answer before and has thanked you for your answer it is acceptable to point them to the functionality. I normally would write something like:

Hi @user12345 if this or any answer has solved your question please consider accepting it by clicking the check-mark. This indicates to the wider community that you've found a solution and gives some reputation to both the answerer and yourself. There is no obligation to do this.

Sure, your quoted "hey, do something on my answer" is crossing the line, but I don't think a neutral comment ("this or any answer") and clarification that it's optional ("There is no obligation") should be cause for warnings to users, if it is used in very limited circumstances.

As far as the points in the post:

Such comments are noise

So add a policy that if you do choose to make that comment, you self-delete it after 24 hours or so.

Voting on and accepting answers are, and always have been, optional

Optional but encouraged and part of the design of the site. How else do we know what content is helpful or not, other than by this behavior?

The system now guides users in this area

A tooltip that requires a mouseover isn't really that much guidance. An automated clippy-style pop-up that intercepts a "thanks" comment and says, "It looks like you're trying to indicate this answer was helpful, can I help?" would be better guidance.

Accepted answers are not as important anymore for visibility

I 100% disagree with this. When I'm scanning questions, I assume that ones with accepted answers do not need me to answer them. They are an extremely valuable filtering tool for those of us who want to answer users' questions.

8
  • Moderator Election brought me here, and since I can't spend the whole day browsing all of the candidates, comments about them, etc, I decided which one has the closest/most recent action towards something I am concerned about and I do a lot. This reply is actually for Ryan M, but since it looks like both of you are on the same page and my vote is towards you for the Mod election I decided to simply comment on yours instead of his.
    – z.g.y
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 3:52
  • 1
    I only asks for check (accept) button, when the OP commented that his/her problem was solved. I also do the "self-delete", although sometimes I forget its more than 2 days, but sometimes its just a matter of hours (like at the time of this comment writing I just deleted a comment hours ago from a question that was solved by my answer), it doesn't matter if I'm 101% confident if my answer will solve the problem, I only ask it once the OP says "thanks" followed by some words ending with "solved" or any similar confirmation that the issue has been solved.
    – z.g.y
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 3:55
  • Another thing to take into consideration is the grammar capacity of the user, my English is all over the place that sometimes there are significant inaccuracy of what I really meant, that's why my answers contains tons of edit. If a mis-punctuation or bad sentence construction, or wrong use of better synonym would cause comment for such intention to fall under the radar of "removal", I sincerely hope that the reviewer should see the entirety of the post not just the comment like "accept answer if solve your problem? please click check?"
    – z.g.y
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 4:12
  • And lastly, for people like me who just recently created an S.O account with the goal of building credentials, I need those reputations which I'm confident enough to say I deserve it based on the parameters I outlined above. I also consider these reputation points as something that I can spend down the road when circumstances put me on a very difficult spot and everything is on the line. That's why I leave comments asking for it.
    – z.g.y
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 4:59
  • 1
    @z.y and that's totally fine - what the general reception for the proposal seems to miss is that it was targetedto reign in users with literally thousands of comments like this on most of their contributions. Imagine the amount of waste it generates...
    – 0Valt
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 12:39
  • 1
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine the harsh reality when a "privilege" is being turned into something "abusable", only way to stop the chaos is just to switch the lights off :(
    – z.g.y
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 12:47
  • 1
    @z.y yeah, kind of - an important background for this proposal was that abusers (no offence to them, but leaving thousands [I am not joking] of such comments under exclusively their posts can't be construed as acting in good faith in my book) kept complaining on meta when they got mod messages telling them to stop, or else deal with a suspension. Unfortunately, these complaints were construed by the community at large as a violation of their god-given right to educate users on how to use the site. Frankly, SE should control such things on their side and not off-load these things [1/2]
    – 0Valt
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 16:11
  • 1
    [2/2] to moderators. We could have automated warnings or even blocks for posting such comments when they reach a certain percentage of having a conflict of interest, for example, but a man can dream...
    – 0Valt
    Commented Nov 15, 2022 at 16:13
47

Asking for people to accept an answer is completely, well, acceptable. In fact, one of the canned comments in the VLQ queue asks the OP to accept an answer instead of adding a thanks! answer.

Image of the delete action dialog box

Under this policy, are we going to take disciplinary action against people who use that canned comment?

0
47

Why we're not wanting to change it

This answer is largely based on my own observation that most such comments are more a friendly reminder about the availability of the accept mark, and very rarely "demanding, or accrediting the other of the obligation to 'accept' an answer".

  1. Such comments are noise

    Such comments, under proper circumstances, are perfectly correct in that they teach new users about how the site works. If "thanks" are noise, then telling users not to generate noise is not.

  2. Voting on and accepting answers are, and always have been, optional

    Optional is not an alias for strictly unnecessary. Voting and accepting, or post score and acceptance, have always been the core indicators of the usefulness of an answer. Given the prevalent case of (new) users leaving a "thanks" comment that only makes judging the quality of an answer harder, it is imperative that we guide these "thankers" onto the right track of showing their gratefulness.

    I also failed to identify a sense of pressure from a comment that opens with "Glad to have been of help".

  3. The system now guides users in this area

    Both the tour and tooltips cover this

    If only people read the tour and check out the tooltips. As has been discussed multiple times before, I'm not the only one in doubt of their effectiveness. The system guides users in this area, terribly.

    Tooltips are, on the other hand, completely unqualified as a "guide". To read the tooltip, one must first notice the existence of an element, and be curious enough to hover their mouse over it. If one goes this far, they will have found out the "accept" mechanism, and no longer be the audience of such reminder comments (and this rule proposal).

  4. Accepted answers are not as important anymore for visibility

    The purpose of acceptance is not solely visibility. It's an indication as described in the 2nd point. Having the green checkmark, despite no longer helping in ranking, is still as useful as being a direct sign of "this answer solves the asker's problem the best" for future readers. It's NOT optional.

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  • 9
    Teaching new users how the site works is not and has never been the purpose of comments. Comments aren't directed at users; they're directed at posts. Their purpose is to suggest improvements to a post and/or ask clarification questions. If you want to teach users, you improve the system-provided guidance and/or get a moderator to send them a message. Considering we have no evidence that users are ignorant of how to use the site, as opposed to simply choosing not to use an optional feature, there is little reason to do either one. The guidance is far more than the tour and tooltips.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:24
  • 12
    @CodeGray If "thanks" are noise, then telling users not to generate noise is not. It's productive. That said, the new rule proposed in this post is only relevant after we have automatic guidance on users not to say "thanks".
    – iBug
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 7:29
  • 4
    I don't know what "thanks" has to do with anything. As has been noted elsewhere, we are agreed that it would be useful to come up with system-level blocks and improved guidance for users who post "thanks" comments, but that's not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed here are comments where users ask for accepts and/or votes on an answer. If you're trying to argue that such comments would, in the long run, decrease the amount of noise, I'm afraid that is empirically denied. We've got thousands of comments like this begging for accepts going back years; it's not helping anyone.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:07
  • 21
    @CodyGray You yourself have argued that we have to accept the site as it is, not as we ideally want it to be. And the way it is is that people do leave comments for that purpose. If you want to change that, then you need to make the changes first that make such comments unnecessary.
    – trlkly
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:15
  • 3
    "If you want to teach users, you improve the system-provided guidance and/or get a moderator to send them a message." I agree, as things stand. The problem is that the system-provided guidance is insufficient, and getting it to improve is extremely slow; and moderators are overworked and don't like being told to send specific messages to specific users by other users who aren't mods. Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:34
  • 10
    @CodyGray "If you want to teach users, you improve the system-provided guidance and/or get a moderator to send them a message" - that doesn't work. You're already complaining about the mod workload, and now you ask to flag for more moderator attention?! As for improving the system, we all know how little influence the community has. So comments are the only viable way for normal users to do this teaching. If you don't want to see these comments, give us the privilege to write mod messages that land in the asker's inbox as well. Or a new flag type that posts this automatically.
    – Bergi
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:40
  • @trlkly such comments are, and always have been, unnecessary.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:44
  • 28
    @CodyGray "Teaching new users how the site works is not and has never been the purpose of comments." Really? So now I'm not allowed to leave comments telling new users not to post text as images, or use external links, or similar? Comments are how we communicate with each other and educate each other. I think you're going way overboard here.
    – MattDMo
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:56
  • 2
    "be curious enough to hover their mouse over it" always the first thing that comes to mind, when working with a tablet...
    – nvoigt
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 3:23
  • 1
    @MattD That's a false equivalence. Comments telling users not to post text as images, use external links, etc. are suggesting improvements to the post, which is one of the things I specifically stated as being the purpose of comments (note that I didn't make it up; it's directly from the commenting privilege description page). So, yes, comments suggesting improvements to the post are obviously allowed and will continue to be allowed. But not comments suggesting that users make decisions that are meant to be entirely personal, like voting and/or accepting.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:23
  • 1
    @trlkly No, actually, I don't need to make those changes first. The real problem here is people who are leaving unconstructive comments, and leaving them in massively large numbers, on the order of thousands, primarily in cases where there is a clear conflict of interest. I can address that by simply putting a stop to those users leaving comments. Now, I agree that it would be nice to make improvements to the site and the way that users are educated. But a failing of the site's tooling does not justify users abusing comments any more than it would justify vigilante justice.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:24
  • 3
    @CodyGray If only a small number of veteran users continuously post such comments, why make it a rule so that everyone loses the right to poke around? I'm not seeing this at a large scale, so it doesn't make sense to make a mountain out of a molehill. True, a failing of the site's tooling does not justify users abusing comments, and neither do some users' behavior justify the deprivation of all's right. This is the same way relevant self-promotion is fine when used sparingly and otherwise on-topic. We handle excessive ones case-by-case, not ban everyone off from self-promotion.
    – iBug
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:56
  • 2
    @CodyGray Re the previous comment: There's no way to construct languages that don't carry the slightest tone of "suggesting", yet for the vast majority I've seen it's the news' ignorance about our voting mechanism. Getting users onto the right way of voting reduces noise, helps sort out good answers, and more importantly, encourages us to write answers (as jfriend00 makes a solid point above). It is simply unfair that one loses a deserved green check mark just for the asker's unawareness of it, and there must be an effective way to resolve this, of which a reminder comment is the simplest.
    – iBug
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 9:06
  • 1
    The fact that you're not seeing this at a large scale doesn't mean that it isn't happening at a large scale. If anything, that's evidence that moderators have spent a lot of time handling it, which is why we're wanting to do something about it. Also, as has been noted multiple times, both in the initial post and in the comments, we mods had initially just been handling these exceptional cases, but we got a lot of pushback about it, so we are trying to do better about explaining our motivations to the community and getting their opinions. What we're hearing is surprising, but…
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:08
  • 5
    @CodyGray If the intention is to handle the exceptional cases, then be explicit about it. The proposal, as is currently written, makes a blanket ban that's affecting negatively and harmfully all the innocent. / Other arguments on "deserved reward" and "motivation" have been covered thoroughly by other users, which I find verbose to repeat here.
    – iBug
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:21
31

There are, in my opinion, right and wrong ways to advise people about the acceptance feature, and it seems like the mods want to make it so that they all fall under the "bad" way now; this feels wrong.

Firstly, I completely agree that a user bluntly telling a user that they should accept an answer (new or not) is not ok. Something simple like:

If it answers the question, you [should] accept it.

This, especially by a user with a lot of rep, to a user with little to no reputation, could be read as forceful.

Like Ryan M said in their answer though, it can be put far more constructively. To take their quote:

@Asker If this solution solved your problem, please feel free to accept it by ticking the checkmark to the left of the answer.

This is constructive, it's not pressurising them to do any action, it's educational. The user can still choose to ignore the comment and/or not accept; it is their choice. Don't misunderstand education for forcing; this is wrong in its own way.

I also feel like the intent of this announcement is where it's expected that the answerer is leaving the comment; I (and others) do leave such comments on other people's answers too that we have no affiliation to. We get literally nothing from educating the user in that education. Maybe in the future if we answer a question from the user they'll know to accept straight away, but we get no reputation for it. Is advising the user of an optional choice that they appear to not be aware of really that bad that you think that you need to suspend a possible SME; depriving people of their knowledge for x number of days? Is that really a good idea?

Blanket removing the right is wrong here; I understand the intent, but this has been proposed poorly.

11
  • 2
    One possible amendment I suggested is disallowing such comments in case of conflict of interest (but considering any comment left in CoI as bad-faith violation by default to compensate). It would keep users that do this in good faith and sparingly on the safe side (although I firmly believe [and with evidence] you and some others are unicorns in terms of leaving comments on posts they are not involved in).
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 9:43
  • 2
    Truth be told, I don't think there is a right way to do it at the current time. We don't have the technology. Using comments for it is abusing comments, not what they are for. But if you can't use comments, then what do you have left? Chat I guess, but good luck getting people in there without abusing the comment system to guide them there.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 14:45
  • While I appreciate the sentiment, I think the identified problem here is not so much "people are exploiting a loophole in order to beg for rep points" and much more "what would be a problem involving one distracting comment that makes the site worse for future visitors, is now a problem involving two of them". That's partly because we don't have a better communication mechanism, and partly because we're bad at cleaning up comments after the fact. Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:36
  • 1
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine I guess I'm a unicorn, too. Now I only leave my informational (not demanding) voting comment on others' answers, so there is absolutely no conflict of interest. I have left it on my own before, but I don't know how to use SEDE well enough to query for them and remove any that still exist.
    – MattDMo
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:03
  • 2
    Alas, I don't have nearly enough room in a comment to delve into the nuances of my actual thoughts on this, but "it's not pressurising them to do any action, it's educational" is, unfortunately, wrong. It is technically still the user's choice, but I have yet to see a new user on the receiving end of one of these comments from a high-rep user who has decided to make the choice not to accept the answer in question, and, in many of those cases, the answers have been, in my admittedly subjective opinion, crap. Why did they accept it, then? Because they felt pressured to do so by the comment.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:09
  • 5
    "unfortunately, wrong" I would say you are wrong here, @CodyGray . And large majority of users here seem to agree with that. A few moderators opinion don't change that; don't pressure us to agree with that.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:01
  • 5
    "Why did they accept it, then? Because they felt pressured to do so by the comment." Did you ask them if they felt pressured, @CodyGray ? If not this is, at best, an assumed state of mind. You need to back up that claim with citations.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:03
  • 3
    "virtually equivalent to making an official demand" Again, wrong. If I were demand it, the wording would be very different. There is a huge difference between between asking and demanding. If you don't know the difference, then why not make a [feature-request[ the change questions to demands? They are the same thing, right? (This is hyperbolic, but proves your stance of thinking asking and demanding aren't the same).
    – Thom A
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:06
  • 1
    Sigh. "Please accept it as the solution". That's not what the acceptance mark is for... And this is why we can't have nice things, we're so bad at communicating the truth.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 13:25
  • 1
    ugh, sorry, just found your comment, @MattDMo, the Q&A became bafflingly bloated quickly. That's great, you are one of those who actually care about the site then! My personal gripe is mostly with the usage of such comments where one is involved which in most cases I've took a look into suggests a dark ulterior motive (there is a strong correlation between such comments and involvement)... Btw, here's my query for meta comments - simply copied to SO, it'll help find any you need (if you want [1/2]
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 5:39
  • [2/2] to, but I don't think one needs to go out of their way to purge those - happens, it's those who primarily [or in extreme volume] post those in CoI are the problem in my view).
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 5:41
31

What we would look for

Comments that are

  • Asking for upvotes
  • Asking for accepts
  • Linking to the Help center page about the subject, Meta.SE, or any other resource describing voting and accepts
  • Any other roundabout way of implying that the user should somehow reward the post with voting or an accept

One of these is not like the others.

It seems I'm not alone in taking exception to the emphasized point regarding leaving a comment that includes a link to a help center page.

I was burned by this transparent rule a few weeks back. I have occasionally left comments letting new users (under 100 rep or asked few questions, etc) know that if the answer they were just commenting on was helpful and/or useful to them that there were options available to them. I'd leave these comments regardless of the answer author, and generally try to follow through a day later and remove them.

What I find interesting is that while the stance is that voting and accepting answers is completely optional (no one is disputing this), the stack's own guidance on this seems to suggest otherwise, that users should be voting and accepting answers they find helpful. In other words, it's perceived as encouragement for desired community behavior. I find it difficult to arrive at a different conclusion.

/help/someone-answers

Decide if the answer is helpful, and then...

  1. Vote on it (if you have earned the appropriate voting privilege). Vote up answers that are helpful and well-researched, and vote down answers that are not. Other users will also vote on answers to your question.

  2. Accept it. As the asker, you have a special privilege: you may accept the answer that you believe is the best solution to your problem.

To accept an answer:

  • Choose one answer that you believe is the best solution to your problem.
  • To mark an answer as accepted, click on the check mark beside the answer to toggle it from greyed out to filled in.
  • You may change which answer is accepted, or simply un-accept the answer, at any time.

Accepting an answer is not mandatory; do not feel compelled to accept the first answer you receive. Wait until you receive an answer that answers your question well.

Please do not add a comment on your question or on an answer to say "Thank you". Comments are meant for requesting clarification, leaving constructive criticism, or adding relevant but minor additional information – not for socializing. If you want to say "thank you," vote on or accept that person's answer, or simply pay it forward by providing a great answer to someone else's question.

/help/why-vote

Why is voting important?

Voting is central to our model of providing quality questions and answers; it is how …

  • ...good content rises to the top
  • ...incorrect content falls to the bottom
  • ...users who consistently provide useful content accrue reputation and are granted more privileges on the site

It’s only through voting that a class of editors, closers, and moderators can emerge to help run and govern the site. Voting is how site leadership forms. That’s why the reputation leagues show a breakdown of top users by reputation for the week, month, quarter, year, or all time.

Our sites are all intended to be a sort of representative democracy. Moderator elections are an important part of that plan, but voting on questions and answers is the primary mechanism through which the community governs the site on a day to day basis. Every user with sufficient reputation can exercise their right to vote, every day that they visit the site.

Voting is so important that there is a variety of badges associated with different aspects of voting – like casting your first upvote or downvote, using up all of your allotted votes in a day, or casting upvotes on other people's answers to a question that you have answered yourself.

Voting up a question or answer signals to the rest of the community that a post is interesting, well-researched, and useful, while voting down a post signals the opposite: that the post contains wrong information, is poorly researched, or fails to communicate information. The more that people vote on a post, the more certain future visitors can be of the quality of information contained within that post – not to mention that upvotes are a great way to thank the author of a good post for the time and effort put into writing it!

/help/privileges/comment

When should I comment?

You should submit a comment if you want to:

  • Request clarification from the author;
  • Leave constructive criticism that guides the author in improving the post;
  • Add relevant but minor or transient information to a post (e.g. a link to a related question, or an alert to the author that the question has been updated).

If it's acceptable to guide new users to help sections when they need help improving the quality of their question, why is there an issue pointing them the help section when they might need help understanding the purpose for the overall quality of their post, and posts in general?

It is clear that some (new) users need help across the board. If the language used in a comment pointing a user to a resource presenting options is courteous and professional, isn't asking for anything, and isn't pushy/demanding/abusive/etc, is there really an issue with this? What is the "pressure"? Where is the "bullying"?

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  • 11
    In your case, the rules were documented in the first moderator message that you received, telling you to kindly knock it off. When you keep doing what a moderator has already asked you to stop doing, then that's a rule violation, independent of what has been documented here on Meta or elsewhere. It's mind-boggling to me that you find it fascinating that upvoting and accepting is optional. How could it not be? The Help Center describes that the options exist; it doesn't state that it's mandatory to use them, especially not in a particular case. That is not the case for our quality standards.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 2:32
  • 7
    I don't know where this idea developed that including a link to an official Stack Overflow page (such as a Help Center article) within a comment automatically makes that comment fine, but such is not the case. Moderators see a lot of extremely rude or otherwise inappropriate comments that nevertheless contain a link to Help Center articles. But the real point here is that there's just no need to ask users to vote on or accept things, for all reasons noted in the post. It's like politics in the 1800s: asking for votes is considered gauche. Don't campaign; let your posts speak for themselves.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 2:36
  • 9
    @CodyGray Sorry I think I've done a poor job of explaining the relevance of that middle part regarding the help section. I've revised and removed the less relevant details. I didn't say including help links automatically makes any comment fine, not sure where you're coming from with that one. Clearly extremely rude and inappropriate comments are, and should be, an entirely different class of issue than courteous comments, regardless if they refer someone to a help page or not.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:00
  • 4
    @CodyGray I don't know what else to say. It appears that perception is the heart of the issue. We're (mostly) all adults here, making our own decisions. Some may perceive a comment as being helpful, others may perceive a comment as unhelpful. Either way, if certain specific types of comments are outright wrong, then let's make them overtly wrong. If these comments are really just noise, then why not leave it at that and let the normal flagging system do its job?
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:20
  • 2
    That's exactly what we're doing. Users who have a significant number of their comments flagged as being noise tend to get messages from moderators advising them of this fact and requesting them to stop leaving such comments in the future.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:42
  • 1
    @CodyGray I know you mods are crazy busy, but might I suggest when the moderation team is reaching out to moderate users for the messaging to be as specific as possible regarding issues, and if there are any requests for clarification, etc, that someone does actually respond back so the likelihood of it turning into more moderation work later is lessened?
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 5:56
  • 7
    So... replies to moderator messages is something that is actually a bit broken. See, all mod message replies go into a global inbox to be seen by all moderators. But everything goes into that, and so that inbox fills up rapidly, especially if we've been suspending a lot of spam accounts, which is something we've been doing a lot of recently. What that means in practice is, it's very easy for us to lose track of a reply and forget to, well, reply to it. So, I'm sorry if that happened. We'd like to see system improvements there. Either way, they're not really a great tool for back-and-forth.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 6:00
  • 7
    @CodyGray wow, I had no idea it was like that. When I've been mod-mailed in the past, it's generally felt like something intended to open a discussion, which then often didn't happen when I replied. It feels more and more like time to reinvent the site (architecture) from scratch. Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:38
  • 1
    @DrewReese here's a couple of other bodies the mods left by the side of the road Personal attack by a moderator, with no accountability and Is it okay to request a newbie user to accept and upvote? so you can see what their mindset was going into this.
    – bad_coder
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 19:36
  • 1
    @bad_coder I figured I wasn't the only one, and had been on the fence ever since whether or not it was worth it to surface on meta my similar experience with the moderation message which specifically cited asking for votes and accepts. I similarly mentioned that I'd done that in the past, agreed, and asked for clarification and for anything specific I'd done more recently that was the issue. Except I didn't get a response at all. I'm not alone in thinking/understanding that "asking for votes/accepts" is clearly and fundamentally different than trying to provide some guidance.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:15
  • 3
    @Karl I think there's something in the sidebar of the mod message page that explains it's not meant for back-and-forth discussion, and that if you want to discuss site policies, you should take it to Meta. At least, there's some verbiage like that in the mod view. It recommends avoiding getting dragged into extended discussions. The reply feature is there so you can plead your case or offer relevant evidence/context, and that's very useful, as sometimes we make mistakes or miss things. But it's not meant as a platform to litigate policy. Inventing a new architecture won't guarantee scalability
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:13
26

This policy is a Y-solution (as in XY-problem). The problem here is users who encourage misuse of the voting and accept features, either actively by begging for votes when it's not appropriate or more subtly by just not providing any usage guidance when bringing it up. Users must be allowed to educate or remind other users about site features. In a given instance of talking about accepts or votes, determining which one of those is happening is always going to be a judgement call that requires examining the context.

A blanket ban is not the right solution. This portion of the policy is especially egregious:

Linking to the Help center page about the subject, Meta.SE, or any other resource describing voting and accepts.

If you find yourself banning people from telling other users to read the help and learn about the site's features, you have clearly gone off the rails.

A better policy would look for red flags like these:

  1. Users who routinely/frequently make such requests
  2. Users who mislead other users about when to use the features
  3. Users who don't provide any guidance about how to determine whether or not an accept or upvote is appropriate in the given situation
  4. Users who demand action rather than encourage and educate, especially if an incentive or threat is attached to the demand

These qualities would indicate a user is more likely to be trying to manipulate others to their advantage rather than educating them on the site features.

I will grant that the instances of legitimately asking for an upvote are much less frequent than those asking for an accept, but regardless, we should never be threatening users for wanting to educate about site features.

Any policy to address the actual problem is going to have to be subjective and leave room for judgement calls about whether a user is going too far, and this blanket ban does not do that.


Also, this is bull crap:

Voting on and accepting answers are, and always have been, optional

We don't want to see users pressured into doing either. Having users call attention to it when they've made a post brings a sense of pressure to do it, regardless of the merits.

While these activities are certainly optional in the strictest sense, they are strongly encouraged. The site help itself pressures users to participate in doing so (See What should I do when someone answers my question? and Why is voting important?), and automated guidance is also a form of pressure. If an asker actually gets the solution to their problem, they should feel a little pressure to mark it and upvote it. We need users to do this for the site to work. The merits are vitally important and should not be ignored or discarded. Obviously, we don't want people bullied or harassed into it, but a single polite comment bringing up the activity certainly doesn't qualify as those.

54
  • 8
    @KevinB You don't institute a draconian rule and then promise it will be applied subjectively. That is just inconsistent and will lead to confusion and pedantic arguments. If you want wiggle room, you put it in the rule explicitly.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:46
  • 1
    @KevinB You can tell that yourself by looking at my history. Why on Earth would you want a repeat of that disaster, even on a smaller scale?
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:48
  • 2
    @KevinB Disasters don't improve the site.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:50
  • 4
    @KevinB LOL! A mass exodus and complete alienation of a large portion of the user base as a response to active discrimination is not "relatively unaffected."
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:55
  • 2
    Yes, the absurd way the company decided to use it against moderators in a private space without prior notification of said policy change that hadn't happened yet. That's not the CoC's doing.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:57
  • 4
    @KevinB Listen to me. People have different motivations. Here's an example of a different one: I like it when good content is promoted and rewarded. Seeing the site work as intended is its own reward to me because it helps me and other people find the information they need and get the job done properly. More people doing their jobs well means less problems for me in all areas of my life, from my online banking to my mobile apps. That's why I want to see good content promoted and rewarded, and that is explicitly the purpose for building these features into the site.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 23:30
  • 3
    @KevinB For me and scores of other people who see curation as important, the reputation is meaningless. And the existence of that motivation completely disproves your claim that all comments of this nature are "begging" for reputation.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 23:31
  • 5
    @KevinB Large numbers of these comments are left in response to things like "That worked!" as the original post here itself admits. When that's the case, the asker has already confirmed that the content is helpful, and the person leaving the comment need make no evaluation. That kind of context is absolutely vital.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 23:33
  • 2
    @KevinB It's also great evidence that people leaving these comments are doing nothing wrong, and even if an automatic reminder existed, that doesn't give you license to vilify everyone who leaves such a comment.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 23:35
  • 2
    (Caveat: only read the answer, not all the comments.) "The problem here is users who encourage misuse of the voting and accept features, either actively by begging for votes when it's not appropriate or more subtly…" In fact, we completely agree. This is exactly what we're doing. We're attempting to address users who leave hundreds or thousands of these comments, often as blatant begging, almost always on their own posts. Now, determining "when it's appropriate" is difficult, as that's inherently subjective. Mods aren't going to rate the worthiness of the answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:02
  • 2
    All of your enumerated criteria are exactly the same criteria we have been looking at when determining whether to take action (such as sending the user a message asking them to stop leaving such comments), and they're the same criteria we plan to continue following. You've nicely summarized the problems and concerns leading up to this policy announcement. The thing is, we don't want to inadvertently create more work for ourselves or encourage rules-lawyering, so we're just going with a very clear policy.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:04
  • 2
    If it so happens that a user chooses to leave a small number of these comments, in cases where it's fully appropriate, then it's extremely unlikely that a mod will never notice. If we don't notice, we're not going to do anything. Even if we do notice, well, we haven't announced we'll be throwing common sense to the wind. As with all policies, it requires putting at least some baseline level of trust in the mod team not to be idiots. I think that's fair. The policy absolutely does leave room for subjective judgment calls. But policies that say "it's subjective" aren't policies.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:05
  • 8
    @CodyGray "All of your enumerated criteria are exactly the same criteria we have been looking at when determining whether to take action" Then write the rule that way instead of writing it as a blanket ban on linking the voting help pages!!! If the rule as written is not the rule being applied, that's a problem and is a major source of the push back you're getting here.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:44
  • 3
    @CodyGray "Even if we do notice, well, we haven't announced we'll be throwing common sense to the wind." When your policy includes a blanket provision forbidding linking part of the help documentation, yes, you have. It's not on us if you've communicated that badly.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:45
  • 2
    @CodyGray "As with all policies, it requires putting at least some baseline level of trust in the mod team not to be idiots." Hard for me to do when ideologically motivated lies and willful misinterpretation (explicitly contradicted by nearby content of mine) have been used to justify punishing me on multiple occasions and then met with silence when I pointed them out. The entire point of putting a law above everyone is that people cannot generally be trusted to rule fairly. I expect SO to makes its rules and adhere to them as a binding contract between itself and its users.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:49
25

Summary

The underlying problem is a technical problem. If you want a rule change like this, obviate the technical problem with a technical solution first. The OP implies a belief that this has already happened, via the site tour and the tooltip for the accept button. My position is that these do not solve the problem. My proposed solution is to use a modal on the comment section for answers, to explain the acceptance system to new users - with explicit instructions.

The system's guidance to new users is not sufficient

The system provides suitable guidance to new users in terms of voting and accepting answers. Martijn's original post was made when such guidance didn't really exist. Both the tour and tooltips cover this

Tooltips

Tooltips cannot ever solve the problem. This is primarily for the same reason that Stack Overflow exists in the first place: they are documentation, in a place where the reverse is needed. Documentation for code and libraries answers "what does this function do and how does it work?", where people instead have the question "what is the function that does this specific thing?" Similarly, the accept-answer tooltip documentation answers "what is the purpose of this weird outlined checkmark symbol?", where people instead have the question "how should I interact with the web page in order to communicate that the answer was helpful?".

Secondary to that, tooltips are not discoverable by our new user in this hypothetical. To see the tooltip, you would have to notice the checkmark outline, and be curious about it. But more importantly, to accept an answer rather than leaving a comment, you would first have to have the idea that leaving a comment might not be the right thing to do.

Comment sections afford commenting, i.e., communicating your thanks (in this case) in writing. Written communication is always going to be the most natural way to give feedback to people who just communicated with you in writing.

Tour

First off, the tour is not going to be popular no matter how shiny or "responsive" or "web 2.0" it is. It's still out of the way; it's still an exposition of site culture (very many people would rather learn by immersion). The basic overview - the "we're a bit different" and "this is a question and answer site" and "we're building a library" (i.e.: not operating a help desk) stuff belongs on the logged-out front page. The rest is just not something you can make people digest all at once without resentment - not because there's a lot of it (it's really quite short honestly) but because it doesn't match how people think about communities and cultures.

More importantly for this specific situation, though, is the part about accepted answers:

The person who asked can mark one answer as "accepted".

Accepting doesn't mean it's the best answer, it just means that it worked for the person who asked.

I don't expect this text to be effective at guiding new users to accept answers, even if they read it. For that to happen, they would have to:

  • retain that information
  • mentally map the checkmark outline on the question page to the filled-in checkmark that was shown in the tour (again, the tooltip cannot help with this; the problem is noticing the outline and suspecting that it's related, not with understanding it)
  • mentally translate "the person who asked can do this" and "accepting means it worked for that person" into "if you asked, and it worked for you, you should accept, and you should also not use other natural ways to communicate that"

In my experience, people generally don't work like that. That's why signs say "Please keep off the grass", rather than "Walking on the sidewalk helps protect you from exposure to pesticides".

Technical problems have technical solutions

The problem with the "please accept" comments is that they try to correct the problem of "this user is adding a comment that shouldn't be" with another. It's a useful way to send a message to that user and prevent the issue going forward (again: written communication is a natural response to written communication from a person, and comment sections afford comments), but:

  • there's a decent chance that the user won't come back anyway
  • there's more to clean up

The underlying problem here is that a) the feedback came after the new user made the comment; b) the feedback appeared publicly.

This is a technical problem, not a social problem. The social behaviour is fine. The experienced user is explaining to the new user how the site works, in a polite way. That's how healthy communities work.

The solution follows naturally from the problem description. The feedback should pre-empt the comment, and it should be displayed privately. That entails: when the new user (detected by reputation, account age, whatever) clicks into the comment section for an answer, a modal appears with the necessary information: "Comments on Stack Overflow answers should be used for XYZ, and not for ABC, etc. etc. If this answer helped you and you are satisfied, then stating your thanks is not necessary. Instead, click the green checkmark outline to the left. This accepts the answer, rewarding the answerer with reputation points."

The modal would explain all the points that are relevant in this context, and nothing else. It would give explicit instructions on what to do.

It would also be emulating a system that is perfectly web-2.0 like and shown to work on many other websites (particularly Google-owned sites like Gmail and Youtube).

21
  • It would likely be more effective to instead detect when a user is attempting to leave such a comment and informing them of the proper way to "thank" someone for answering their question, whether they're a new user or otherwise.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:07
  • 3
    Possibly. I have a general distaste for automated attempts at understanding human communication. Effectiveness aside, it kinda just creeps me out, honestly. Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:22
  • How about if any flag autodeletes the comment? It involves at least one human that would in theory be seen by a moderator.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:24
  • That's an improvement over what we have, but it does still move things to be after the fact. I'd need more data to be swayed, I think. Is it at all common for users who aren't new to do this? If that happens, is it not simply because they weren't properly told about it yet? Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:27
  • 1
    "The underlying problem is" also that acceptance generates rep. If acceptance were just ... acceptance, we could probably live with people reminding others about it. Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:44
  • The other thing about tooltips is that they don't exist on touchscreens. Sure, only a low percentage of people tend to post questions & answers on SO from phones or tablets, but I suspect a higher percentage check their posts from mobile devices.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:45
  • 2
    On a related note, this makes it very difficult to discover a lot of the features of the Stack Exchange interface on touchscreens (and to some extent on devices with a mouse). You essentially have to click on everything by trial & error to see what happens. It mystifies me that so many features are hidden in plain text rather than obvious buttons, and that this interface isn't clearly documented. The Tour (kind of) tells you how to use the site, but documentation on how to use the interface (apart from the editor Help) is either non-existent, or buried in various meta pages.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:47
  • 2
    Sorry if that last comment seems to be going off on a tangent, but a central theme of this question revolves around educating newbies. IMO, the system features do not do an adequate job, so it's often necessary for old-timers to post educational comments & links.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 12:51
  • @Trilarion the purpose that the accept votes also awards reputation is because that allows new sites to kickstart even if all the established users go away. Imagine that everyone with reputation >1 disappear tomorrow, who will have any privilege to do anything?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 15:03
  • @Braiam You can always ask or answer something. No reputation needed for that. Commented May 20, 2022 at 19:09
  • The system already has a way to deal with lack of people with reputation.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 19:13
  • 3
    Just help campaign for SE to finally untie the privilege system from the wretched reputation thing and change it to something at least remote useful - progression-based, @Braiam, and we won't have a problem with lack of users with curation privileges no matter the rep.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 21:38
  • 1
    @Braiam how do you think new sites get started?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 22:16
  • 2
    I want users to achieve them with meaningful interaction, @Braiam, not income accumulation. The system does not work, and I am actually baffled you don't see it at this point. Also, the notion it produces high-quality content is laughable, really. Just look around.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 5:19
  • 1
    Successful flagging for respective voting privileges, successful suggestions for unilateral edits, successful deletion recommendations for deletion privileges, etc. Numbers and criteria may vary as you please, @Braiam. And yes, posting is not a meaningful interaction concerning privileges it grants. It is just an indicator that you can successfully flood the site with posts of at least mediocre quality. Go take a look at the "high quality" you seem to be so proud of that is produced by those who are supposed to be the pinnacle of the system under your understanding of "it works just fine".
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 15:11
13

I really do not care about the points. I think I've never asked someone for upvotes or accepted vote on my answer. And despite those... I thoroughly disagree with this. If someone is becoming a problem, that should be dealt with, but only when it becomes a problem. Explaining how a mechanic of the site works is never a bad thing. What would be next? I should not comment telling users that the edit button should be used when their question is closed? Or that their code has so many issues that their question is too broad? Or how duplicates work?

If moderators have so much time on their hands that they will start policing these, maybe they have enough time to also kick-start the burnination process, which have been stagnant for years. Everyone knows there's a backlog of bad tags that needs to be dealt with.

9
  • 7
    Burninations have started back up, and have been nearly continuous for a couple months, except for a short break where posts from CMs resulted in no free [featured] slots for new burns. write and writing are currently being burninated -- feel free to join in. We can still do burninations in parallel with enforcing comments. Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:02
  • 1
    @ZoestandswithUkraine you are missing the point: if you are "overworked" you should not be adding things to your plate. It's not that foreign concept that you don't add things to your responsibility if you can't deal with the ones you currently have.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:03
  • 2
    Are you saying you are ok with reading these comments even after many years? Why do you think they shouldn't be deleted?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:09
  • 5
    @Dharman no, I'm saying that if moderators think this is a solution then you are totally unaware of the solutions that can be had. The solution to moderators overloaded is not adding more load to it. If you are seeing plenty of flags and all of them should be just accepted, just ask for it to be added to the regex that removes a comment with a single flag. Zero extra effort for moderators, those that feel bothered by such comment see them being deleted, no one that gives them in good faith would be penalized. Win-win-win.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:14
  • 4
    But be prepared to argue the case with data, like Shog did
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:16
  • 3
    @Dharman also, what made you believe that I'm ok with such comments? Didn't you see my flag history? If I find them I flag them, but this "rule", whenever it comes from, makes me think that moderators are sorely lacking an outside voice that tell you how bad your ideas are.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 13:24
  • @Braiam "makes me think that moderators are sorely lacking an outside voice that tell you how bad your ideas are" SO in a nutshell for the past 5 years.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:51
  • If we moderators weren't interested in an outside voice to tell us how bad our ideas were, why would we read and/or post things on Meta? Why would I have taken the time to read hundreds of answers/comments from users here expressing disagreement about something which I think is just common sense and obviously feel strongly about? Sorry, but this kind of oblique insult just doesn't land. It's hard to, on the one hand, leave comments like that one denigrating moderators, and, on the other hand, claim that comments you're leaving requesting accepts aren't laden with comparable innuendo.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:48
  • 1
    @CodyGray this idea is just an example of an idea that should have been quashed the same moment it was uttered as impractical, pointless and the opposite of what your stated "objectives" are. If you don't have anyone that will tell you that in the in-group, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you all need to collectively touch grass?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 10:43
12

No.

Please don't penalize users for simply reminding other users of how the site works. I would think Stack Exchange would want new users to learn how the site works.

If someone demands an upvote or an accept, that's being rude and such a comment should be deleted for that reason. Threatening or bullying comments pressuring a user to vote or accept are unacceptable.

Asking for an upvote or an accept, while not rude, can be flagged as No Longer Needed, but without penalty.

Relevant comments reminding users of how the site works are needed and should not be flagged for deletion or penalized, even if they are "second class citizens".

But as most of us routinely see, many new users don't know how the site works, despite guidance and the tour. If I answer a user's question, that user hasn't accepted an answer before, and that user posts some kind of "Thanks! That helped!" comment, I will continue to add my standard comment that gently reminds and informs the user that they can accept the answer they think is the best, without asking or demanding:

As the asker of this question, at your discretion, you may accept the answer you think answers your question the best.

I will do that for the primary reason of making the site better by informing users of how the site works. That is needed.

If the user accepts an answer, even if it's not mine, I'll do my best to delete my comment myself. At worst, in that case, I don't mind if it's flagged as NLN and deleted as such.

8
  • 3
    To be clear: no one is proposing any penalties here. We're just clarifying the policy is that such comments should not be routinely posted, and that, as such, they're going to be deleted on sight. If a particular user is posting hundreds or more of such comments on a regular basis, they're likely to get a message from a moderator asking them to stop. It's no different than the way we handle all other matters when it comes to comments.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:36
  • 4
    The problem I believe you're missing, as with most people here, is that, no matter how politely you attempt to phrase the comment, there's an inherent power dynamic involved in a 172k rep user leaving a comment "informing" a brand-new user how the site works. You may have attempted to be entirely neutral, and you may have even succeeded on a purely textual level, but that user is still going to feel pressured (previously, I've used the term "bullied", but I'll avoid that b/c it's been suggested that trivializes real bullying).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:39
  • 2
    And then there are the correlated issues of noise and scale. Even if you do follow up and delete your own comment, it was still there on the page for all the time that it was there, serving as a distraction to other viewers/researchers. This is something we should all strive to avoid. The purpose of this platform is questions and answers, not teaching users how to use the site. If the latter is getting in the way of the former, then it's a problem. Beyond that, it sounds simple to just leave the comments for a while and later flag/delete them, but that's a lot of work for mods.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:41
  • 4
    Again, most people here are not understanding or appreciative of the sheer scale/volume that we're talking about. Each user we've messaged so far about this, and each case we've even contemplated taking any action, has involved thousands of these comments. When you consider we're talking about hundreds of users, each leaving thousands of comments... that's a lot of comments. It requires more than just a one-off, case-by-case type of management. Maybe that's unfortunate, but that is the reality.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:42
  • 6
    I'll meet this one half way though. I am 100% positive and convinced that there is no intention to penalise with this re-enforcement of what was actually already a rule to begin with. I believe it, the people attached to this are all people I have faith in. But then we are only talking about a slice of time, - right now. Not about the future. This policy opens the door for the people after the Cody Gray's in the world... to penalise people with good intentions. Because penalising IS on the table, it is just not preferable. Not yet, anyway. I can understand this makes people pessimistic.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 8:19
  • 4
    @CodyGray, "...there's an inherent power dynamic involved in a < insert high number > rep user leaving a comment "informing" a brand-new user how the site works." - So higher rep users should be more careful when making suggestions on how to interact with the site, as that might be bullying? Are the new users you're trying to protect even aware of the rep system and how that works? From your comment - "no one is proposing any penalties here". From the Original Post - "Our hope is to not have any suspensions". These two statements appear to implicitly contradict.
    – ouflak
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 10:39
  • 2
    @CodyGray "Our hope is to not have any suspensions, save the routine violators who insist on continuing to remind others to vote or accept." It may an implication, but is a suspension not a penalty? A gentle reminder that votes and accepts exist is just one way we can teach users how the site works, along with not posting links/images to code in their questions, giving detailed error messages, etc. I don't doubt there's a lot moderator work in cleaning up clutter around the site, but if I think it guides the user and helps the site, then I'll post it.
    – rgettman
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 17:43
  • @CodyGray Sure, there is a "power dynamic", but I endeavor always to exhibit exemplary behavior when posting, whether I have 172k or 172 or 1, and I hope everyone does the same. I understand the need to be gentle. I lurked for over a month after I joined in 2012 before posting - observing and learning the site. And on my first answer, someone posted something like, "Isn't this answer repeating another answer?", which I now understand to be part of a First Posts review. Thankfully, 2 people upvoted my answer, and if they hadn't, I would have abandoned my account. I understand.
    – rgettman
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 17:53
9

Aside from the clearly problematic comments asking for upvotes, pressuring people into accepting answers, or posting unsolicited requests for acceptance, there is still definitely a need to better inform new users who, in many cases, are apparently trying to do something "acceptance-like" for an answer. This shows up in several ways (not just as comments):

  • Comments on an answer saying things like "Thanks, that worked" or "Thanks, that solved my problem"
  • Editing the question to say something like "Update: got the solution from User X's answer, here is the fixed code"
  • Adding their own answer that says "The answer from User X fixed my problem! Here is the fixed code" or anything along those lines

In these cases, adding a comment with the link about how to accept an answer seemed totally appropriate. If the site systems were really good enough at educating new users about what to do when someone answers a question, these things wouldn't be happening nearly as often as they do.

Perhaps if the system could detect patterns like these, the Community Bot could add a generic comment on the question with the "how to accept" link - that way there is no pressure to accept any particular user's answer. Better yet, users who notice something like these happening that the bot didn't detect could have a way of triggering the Community Bot to make such a comment - again avoiding any direct or implied pressure to accept a particular answer while still letting the new users know how the site works.

8

The general nature of the support that I see for being able to make comments like this is pretty specific. We want to be able to remind new users that there is an acceptance system in place. Generally we want to apply this in the case that a user has said "Thanks that worked". Many have said they want to be able to do that on other people's answers, which is not at all self-serving.

So, make a new specific flag. "This post is a thank you, with no additional helpful information." When anyone flags a comment that way the system will
a) immediately delete the comment (maybe only if you detect words of appreciation like Thanks, thank you, appreciate, great, wonderful, merci, s'marvellous...) If the tool to analyze the flag doesn't find the keywords you want per part a) then just pass it through to the mods as an "other reason" flag.

b) send the commenter, who must be the asker, a message from the system with the most polite wording that Cody can come up with, which obviously agrees with the other guidance on the site, something to the effect of "If an answer to your question [link to the question] on this site [link2] solved your problem, consider clicking the outlined check mark next to the most helpful answer". This message would only be sent to a user who currently meets some set of criteria such as

  1. less than 5 accepted answers,
  2. less than 10 questions,
  3. an account less than 2 months old.

Pick your own criteria. If they don't meet the criteria just auto-delete the comment (per part a).

You can put some privilege level on this flag so that some newbie can't do damage, but that's likely not critical since people that will flag the comment are likely high rep people anyway, but go ahead and enforce that.

1
  • 3
    Basically almost exactly what some here are doing manually because the system isn't great at providing the guidance itself, and Cody wants the "pressure" to come from the system instead of users because of power dynamics and bullying. I can support this. By eliminating the X problem of "thanks, it works" comments by askers it also removes the Y problem of "thanks for the thanks but here's how the site is supposed to work" comments by others just trying to be helpful. Seems win-win IMO.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 23:10
8

Proposal: remove the notion of accepted answers

Since I created an account here over a decade ago, getting users to accept answers that have clearly solved their problem has never worked particularly well. We could talk about why that is, but that's been done to death and more. In my view, there has been no positive change to this since I signed up. But, sitting back and thinking about it a bit, what value does accepting an answer even add?

Many askers don't care enough to accept an answer, or the problem is too hard to solve, otherwise this would have been fixed a long time ago. Answerers care for the reputation, and possibly for something close to being thanked for their time. And what about people looking for answers? They clearly don't care about an accepted answer, else the behaviour for having the top voted answer rise to the top wouldn't have become the default. Vote count matters far more.

The only reasons I can think for accepted answering to exist, at least in terms of how things have been designed, is to bump questions with no accepted answer to the front page, and possibly to award a bounty. (I've never awarded a bounty myself, so I'm not sure on this point.) Both behaviours could be designed differently far more easily than ever trying to automate the acceptance of answers or trying to get askers to increase their acceptance rates.

4
  • 10
    I'd go with that proposal in a heartbeat - accept mark is a relic of support forums of the old that somehow made it into the Q&A format. It adds nothing of value (no, acceptance says 0 about the quality of an answer), in many cases is harmful (to a degree that even SE, Inc realised it's a problem and unpinned them), and also causes a lot of noise because users beg for accepts in comments. Unfortunately, it's up to SE, Inc to deal the finishing blow to it, and you know how long it takes them to do anything, so... maybe, some day.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 20:43
  • 2
    but mah rep points
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 20:51
  • I don't like the idea of getting rid of an existing signal that many find valuable. Discussions can be had regarding the misinterpretation of that signal, but I feel that acceptance is a valuable indicator to many, many folks. Acceptance is the one signal that the OP of a question gets to contribute to, and I don't think getting rid of that would be good.
    – zcoop98
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 21:21
  • 2
    Yeah, I'd go for the abolishment of rep while keeping the accept mark. At least that would mitigate half the problems it would generate. Oh, but you see, it will take away the precious incentive to participate, who will post all those mega-duplicates and then nag to accept then? /s
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 22:37
3

It's been stated strongly in a number or answers and comments that new users are fully conversant with all SO policies including question answered

Let's look at this from an analysis of actual data rather than strong opinions which IMHO are not backed up by data analysis and KPIs

Some code to get data, analyse and visualise:

from stackapi import StackAPI, StackAPIError
import pandas as pd
import plotly.express as px
import urllib

access_token = urllib.parse.parse_qs(urllib.parse.urlparse(auth_url).fragment)[
    "access_token"
][0]


SITE = StackAPI("stackoverflow", key=key, access_token=access_token)
SITE.max_pages = 100

def batch_get(site, so_api, ids, api_kwargs={}):
    n = 100
    return pd.concat(
        [
            pd.json_normalize(
                site.fetch(so_api, ids=ids[i : i + n], **api_kwargs)["items"]
            )
            for i in range(0, len(ids), n)
        ]
    )

# get all my answers
user_ids = [9441404]
dates = (
    pd.date_range("1-jan-2017", "1-jun-2022", freq="MS").astype(int) // 10**9
).tolist()
df_ans = batch_get(
    SITE,
    "users/{ids}/answers",
    user_ids,
    api_kwargs={"fromdata": dates[0], "todate": dates[-1]},
)

# get questions corresponding to answers
df_q = batch_get(SITE, "questions/{ids}", ids=df_ans["question_id"].tolist())

# simple analysis of accepted answers by reputation bucket
df_temp = (
    df_q.groupby([pd.qcut(df_q["owner.reputation"], q=10), "is_answered"])
    .size()
    .reset_index()
    .rename(columns={0: "n"})
    .assign(rep_bin=lambda d: d["owner.reputation"].astype(str))
)

# plot analysis
px.bar(
    df_temp,
    x="rep_bin",
    y="n",
    color="is_answered",
    color_discrete_sequence=["red", "green"],
    barmode="group",
)

Resulting graph: enter image description here

  • x-axis. Discretize reputation of asker into 10 buckets based on quantiles of reputation. hence first bucket are users with <3 rep, second bucket between 3 and 11 rep, ...
  • y-axis. Number of questions in each discrete quantile bucket
  • green bar - where SO has marked question as answered. red-bar were SO has marked question as un-answered

One would expect questions that have valid answers would have a significantly higher proportion of questions marked as answered than not. This is clearly demonstrated as soon as user has > 11 rep in this sample.

Clearly this shows that new / low rep users are not aware of this what to do with an answer.

IMHO wrong conclusion has been reached over balance of guiding new users how to process answers. Concluding any form of guiding new users as bullying is simplistic and wrong.

11
  • 2
    This data would be improved with a little bit of added context; what are we looking at in the chart? You mention rep, but what are the axes? You supply the code as a seeming explanation, which I'm sure it is for those familiar with the language, but your answer would be way more helpful with a full explanation of what data you're supplying and what you feel it illustrates.
    – zcoop98
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 19:39
  • 1
    @zcoop98 my bad - personally I prefer to read code as a tech spec... it is always less ambiguous than natural language. updated Commented May 24, 2022 at 20:06
  • 1
    Your argument to get the answers from the API appears to have a typo "fromdata": dates[0] instead of fromdate I'm not sure how this would affect the response from the api wrt. which answers you actually pulled down.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 20:34
  • 1
    How does this determine what is and isn't a valid answer? In what way does this show that comments requesting an accept/vote are educational rather than self-serving?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 20:37
  • @HenryEcker these are all the answers I've provided. which is ~1600. have validated that. now I could limit questions to those that have only one answer then I know it matches up. However this does not change the result - questions with answers of roughly same quality (I know they are roughly same quality as I have authored them), is probability asker will accept equivalent across level of experience user has with using SO? Commented May 24, 2022 at 20:51
  • 2
    @tdy it's a controlled environment - all questions are ones I have provided answers to. I help new users improve their questions, often helping them build a MWE. it's interesting when you follow all the arguments in comments and answers newbie users are too problematic to work with. help them with understanding SO best use and I breach policies and loose my access. Commented May 24, 2022 at 20:56
  • @KevinB it's because answer quality is relatively consistent as all answers are from me. i.e. that variable random range has been reduced. a controlled sample for purpose on analysing likelihood a new user understand question answered best practice Commented May 24, 2022 at 20:59
  • Forgive me for not sharing the same... enthusiasm that your answers over a period of time all share the same quality/validity, or are all on questions that themselves are "valid", I certainly wouldn't regard my own 2k answers to that standard, much less someone elses
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 21:05
  • @KevinB you are correct... they are not all of same quality, my poorer answers will be distributed across all SO user experience level questions. Other variables have not been fully removed from distribution, however strong case that a new user is far less likely to know about question answered approach I believe is well supported in this analysis. Also for me shows another hypothesis that keeps on being but forward - all new users are fully aware of question answered importance that any experienced user that friendly point to this is a bully and should leave SO Commented May 24, 2022 at 21:17
  • @RobRaymond Ah I see, I missed that these were all your answers. That does control it a bit more. In any case, I hope this won't get buried by downvotes. Sure it has limitations (as does all analysis), but I appreciate seeing some actual data points.
    – tdy
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 21:17
  • @cody after significant cool off time I have settled on response to way dictatorial approach of some moderators for calling me and other out as unsuitable SO contributors. Have updated my profile text and will not be answering any more questions or respond to any comments on SO. Other highly rated contributors on tags I was active on have sent me PMs to restart as my contrition is missed. However this is not consistent with way some mods are expressing themselves so I am now a fully dormant ex SO contributor Commented Jul 16, 2022 at 22:00
2

and it's frustrated some users who were genuinely unaware.

Understatement Machavity. I liked curating but... If I edit/close/flag 1000 post for free and then need to ping a 1 rep user just as a reminder he didn't accept despite acknowledging I saved his day with a free solution...

Sorry, then I'm getting a bad deal. Besides I'm being put under threat by the mod team after I've done 99,9% over a 0.1% action where I'm not necessarily doing anything wrong.

If the mod team wants to threaten me like that they can clear up the mess themselves.

I'm done.

3
  • 4
    "put under threat". No, hardly. You're being politely asked by the moderator team to stop doing something that we feel you shouldn't be doing and isn't necessary for a variety of reasons. That's not "a bad deal", that's how moderation works. This is no different than saying that a user who has contributed hundreds of high-quality answers should get a free pass on being rude, or posting off-topic questions, or any of a dozen other things that moderators typically ask users to stop doing. I've grown very weary of all these "I'm done" threats throughout this Q&A.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:34
  • 4
    @CodyGray then it's a good thing everyone is disagreeing with you (and demonstrating your way of putting things is misleading).
    – bad_coder
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:45
  • @CodyGray this time I will not prove why that latest argument is wrong.
    – bad_coder
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 6:54
-2

From the update to the question

... moderators will delete them if seen or ...

Don't do that. You would act directly against the expressed will of the meta community as documented here. This is in my opinion not acceptable. Moderators should be servants not leaders of the community and a score of currently -131 is so clear that there would be no excuse.

Please do instead what the most upvoted answers here suggest, i.e. even if you see such comments but they are written in a neutral, no pressure style and there is no pattern of the commenter below own answers, do not delete them. And if flagged, think again and check if the comment is primarily aimed at educating users. If so, let these comments be, even if you wouldn't have done so in the past

As a comment: making a proposal, getting negative feedback and then concluding that you'll do it anyway in some cases sounds not very consistent. Almost a bit like what one would expect from the company. Either do it all the time or never or have a clear policy for when and when not.

-4

Counterproposal: A single comment flag will delete any comment requesting acceptance or upvotes.

Comments which contain one or more keywords are automatically deleted by the system when a flag is raised.

Thus, similar to this (great) feature request, when a regular user flags a comment with this type of content, I propose the comment be automatically deleted. After all, comments are second-class citizens. This will prevent valuable moderator effort from being wasted on these comments.

It might take a bit of tuning to get the regex just right, but maybe accept\b, upvote\b, accepting, or upvoting.

An obvious downside of this counterproposal is that potentially useful comments would be easier to delete. I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

8
  • 3
    @akrun To minimize the development time required, I imagined instantaneously. But I'm not totally against a slight delay. Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:55
  • I'd be all for this, if it also included an instantaneous auto-flag whenever such a comment is posted.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:58
  • 2
    @KevinB We're trying to make less work, not more. =P Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:58
  • It would be less work, if the flag is auto-handled with a deletion, ;)
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:58
  • @IanCampbell one issue with keyword is that people will come up with new words to overcome the deletion.
    – akrun
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:00
  • 7
    The facility to do this is already in place. A single flag deletes "thanks" posted as comments.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:22
  • 2
    What this counter-proposal doesn't explain is the advantage(s) of allowing these comments to be posted or exist at all. It probably would address the scaling issues, and perhaps even do a lot to address the noise concerns, but it does nothing to address the very real issue of perceived pressuring of users to accept [an/the] answer. It's very easy for those of us who have been around for a long time, have strong opinions, and a willingness to defend them in comments to imagine what it's like for a brand-new user reading a comment from a high-rep user. They just do what they're told.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:45
  • @CodyGray is the load on moderators something that is not flagged? This is just a short-circuit to the usual behavior of flag comment > moderator read comment > moderator deletes comment. Or are you guys hunting these down when they are not flagged?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 17:05
-5

Answerers' ask for acceptance, if framed and phrased properly, are a way to get feedback from the asker, which in many cases just ghosts away. Askers have a responsibility as well, and I think ghosting isn't fair.

Personally, many times I left comments asking such feedback in the following way:

Did my answer help you resolve your issue? If not let me know and I'll try to provide further help. If it did, please consider accepting it.

If the first part of my phrasing (or paraphrasing thereof) will still be allowed (?), I think it's only fair to complement it with its second part.

20
  • 7
    This isn't a help desk. Askers have no responsibility to engage with answerers. Comments like your example have always been regarded as noise, were never allowed, and will continue to be deleted on sight. As a related fact: screaming into a void does not accomplish anything.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:41
  • 6
    Why would you ever need a feedback from the asker. If the question was unclear, don't answer it and vote to close. If you knew the problem then you know your solution should work. Up votes and down votes from future viewers will be your main feedback.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 8:41
  • @Dharman, many times the question is perfectly clear, and so does the answer, and yet the asker needs more help with something directly related to its question - and just never asks about that something. They may open another question on such cases, but usually they don't.
    – OfirD
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 9:05
  • @CodyGray, didn't say they have responsibility to engage, and I'm certain you don't really mean askers are "void". But do they have any responsibility with relation to the answerer? Or they just fire (a well written question) and forget?
    – OfirD
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 9:05
  • 6
    @OfirD Yeah, but that's their thing to do: open a new question. You are not here to mentor people. You are providing good solutions that don't require anyone's approval, especially not the asker's approval
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 9:26
  • 4
    Yes, fire and forget. The asker's responsibility stops with providing a clear, complete, answerable question that complies with our requirements and is a useful contribution to our knowledge base. If they choose to engage further, they certainly can, and the system does encourage them to do so in many ways, but further engagement is fully optional. It's entirely reasonable for me to go on the site and "seed" it with high-quality questions that I think should be answered as a useful addition to the knowledge base. My involvement can stop there, and I've still contributed positively.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 9:42
  • 2
    @CodyGray It goes against the core principles of SE described in Help Center. SE is like an island of communism, run by community for community, and "fire and forget" is 100% like consumption society with askers screaming "I don't care about anything but my problems". While not responsibility, there should be some feeling telling them to reward answerers for their help.
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:08
  • 2
    @CodyGray I see this the other way around: On a help desk askers have no responsibility to engage with answerers, because askers use some service which someone already chose to provide, maybe even paid one, while answerers are being paid for providing answers. Here on SE askers request people to provide them some service for free; SE doesn't guarantee the service, the answerers decide whether they want to provide it and expect to see some appreciation of their work. If askers don't want to engage with answerers, how about not asking a question in a first place?
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:08
  • @Dharman Because there are people like jfriend00 who want to "win a game" or provide the best answer possible, consider some edge cases an asker might have in order to receive more rep later?
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 12:09
  • 2
    @EvgenKo423 that "game-winning" mindset is fundamentally misguided. Stack Overflow is not about the askers and the answerers; it is about the questions and the answers. The best questions are the ones that help many people, because they are found later with a search engine. A question being high quality has nothing to do with how much time or money it saved the OP. In fact, a question can be very good even though it is being asked by someone who does not actually have a problem to solve. The system explicitly supports answering your own question, and many "big names" capitalize on this. Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:11
  • 2
    The site is maintained by a community, but clearly not "run" by one - as evidenced by the fact that we regularly get meta posts from the administration, and a lot of them get huge amounts of downvotes; as evidenced by the site features that everyone thinks are a good idea but don't get implemented for years; and as evidenced by how there seem to be clear factions of users with different interpretations of the site's vision, who are at each others' throats (politely) on meta all the time. Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:14
  • 1
    @KarlKnechtel But there would not be much answers without the gamification aspect. "The site is maintained by a community, but clearly not "run" by one" – well, yes, in an ideal world that the tour page describes that is. "communication [...] is supposed to be limited" – I find a single comment from each side to be limited enough. "The potential help is just the incentive to contribute questions" – while may be true for (self-)answerers, I'm quite sure that none of the askers came here to "build a library"...
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 18:17
  • 2
    @EvgenKo The Help Center article you linked that explains how acceptance of an answer works is not setting out "core principles of SE". The core principle is that we're working together to build a knowledge base through high-quality answers to questions. The functioning of that knowledge base does not depend on users being able to induce other users to upvote and/or accept their answers, and it certainly doesn't hinge on anyone earning rep. SE is not communism; it's collaboration. One person posts a question, someone else posts an answer. Others find those contributions useful.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:53
  • 1
    "If askers don't want to engage with answerers, how about not asking a question in a first place?" Ack! No. Despite your own rhetoric about "the core principles of SE", you've completely misunderstood the purpose and principles of the site! The reason for asking a question is to make a valuable contribution to the knowledge base. The mere act of asking a question is a valuable contribution, because it allows others to make a contribution by answering. This isn't about tit-for-tat. Askers have never been expected to engage with anyone else.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:55
  • 2
    And that's (rep being the base of a privilege system) precisely what many have been arguing against for quite a while. The system as designed is a huge failure. The efforts are better placed in pushing SE to move to a sensible progression-based system (which is something that is, to some degree, is being considered by them at least partially as far as I am aware) rather than making things worse by making sure the status quo (in assessing of which you are correct) persists.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 11:20
-5

In addition to users asking for accepts (and perhaps upvotes) on their own answers, or of new users, I have on multiple times been in a situation when someone asked a question and failed to upvote or accept answers for a while - sometimes not even anything I had posted - and I commented asking them to indicate what worked or to upvote/accept an answer they had said they would try out or otherwise seem to have shown favor to.

I believe this is legitimate - especially since we don't have a "force community accept" of an answer.

6
  • 8
    The lack of a "force community accept" option is very intentional. The reason we don't have this is the same reason we do not allow users to post comments demanding users to upvote or accept an answer. These actions are completely optional. You should not seek to induce other users to do this. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with users choosing to ignore answers that they've received. If there is no feedback provided to an answer you've posted, you just move on. There is nothing more for you to do.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 11:46
  • 8
    @CodyGray: As others have already written: "Completely optional" does not mean "not useful and important", and "nothing wrong" does not mean "cannot be improved upon". We should seek to induce other users to indicate how existing answers are unsatisfactory when they seem to resolve the question. "you just move on" - I already said it doesn't necessarily have to do with what I've posted.
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 11:56
  • 2
    I do not think it is in any way "important". The only "importance" is in people earning rep, and that's not "important" to me. We should, indeed, seek to induce users to indicate if/how existing answers are unsatisfactory, yet I don't ever see anyone posting comments asking for or suggesting that users cast a downvote on their answer if they don't find it to be helpful. And that really brings us to the heart of this, which is that such comments, especially when posted in large quantities, are not only noise, but blatantly self-interested, despite all the lip service about "greater good".
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:49
  • 1
    In response to, "How will other people encountering the same issue know...", they won't. And that's OK. Because there's no guarantee that the root cause is identical in all cases. Instead, what those future viewers will do is to try all of the answers, most likely starting with the highest-scoring ones, as those are the ones that worked for most people (ote that it doesn't matter much whether they specifically worked for the asker; it's enough that they worked for most viewers), until they get to one that worked for them. If none of them solved their problem, maybe they can set a bounty.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 5:51
  • 1
    I didn't say you said anything about requesting DVs. I said it. If it were actually true that the users posting these comments had no self-interested, reputation-seeking motives, and were truly neutrally concerned with getting feedback and/or improving the answers, then it stands to reason that they would leave comments requesting downvotes. Yet, I've never seen one! That suggests some other factor is at play. To answer your question, yes, I am 100% OK with a consequence of not having these comments being that fewer answers get accepted. That's worth avoiding the noise and the pressuring.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:36
  • 2
    ... and the question vote tally suggests that you have somewhat over-reached, further indicating a milder rule change is in order. You're in the situation of being objectively biased in favor of justifying your enforcement practices so far, since without this exact rule change you will have been deemed to have acted inappropriately. But - it's better to suffer through a bit of contrition and make a more modest rule change. If you find that insufficient, you will be able to empirically argue for the stronger version. IMHO.
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 20, 2022 at 7:45
-5

I would hope for some deference to the moderators from the community about this.

If the moderators see such comments as problematic, taking too much moderation effort, and creating too much wiggle room for some rule abusers, I am willing to put aside my belief that these comments are sometimes helpful. It is a lot of work to moderate this site and this may be a sacrifice that needs to be made.

Here is what Dharman ♦ posted in SOCVR chat (emphasis added):

PSA: Do not ask users to upvote/accept answers. Do not feel the need to educate them either.

Explanation

mods are tired of deleting comments reminding others to upvote and/or accept answers. We understand that you might think you are doing this to help new users, but it's not your job. The system should educate new users on how voting works, not your comments. The truth is accepting is completely optional and nobody should feel pressured into doing so. Upvoting is a privilege many new users don't have. Once they gain that privilege, the system issues a short training to them. The correct way to reply to "Thank you" comments is to flag for deletion. Many times these are added just because the asker is happy someone took the time to post anything at all. Even if their comment says "it worked" it doesn't mean that they must accept the answer.

Here is anther chat message from Machavity♦ to which I also add emphasis:

The one-offs are common and they don't always beg but remind (there is a difference). But we've had some folks who remind all the time. When we're removing hundreds of comments, there's a problem Sadly, it's something you only see from the mod seat. It's hard to communicate that in specific terms because there's no tools so you can say something concrete like "X% of comments we removed were due to this"

The moderators themselves don't have the power to change how the site works. Waiting for staff to implement a site features to help the problem is not usually a feasible solution when a policy change is possible.

10
  • Other than the mention of "Do not feel the need to educate them either." where is the relevance of the quote regarding comments that make no request to vote or accept and only serve to direct a user's attention to the help section? I think we understand it's not our official job here to to help educate novice users, but clearly if the system actually did what it's claimed to handle, we wouldn't be having this entire conversation.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 15:57
  • "taking too much moderation effort" the system is designed to alleviate such effort by leveraging the entire user base and doing things automatically. If all these comments are "noise", then just make them delete-able with a single flag like "Thanks that worked".
    – Braiam
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:19
  • 3
    "The system should educate new users on how voting works, not your comments." Agreed wholeheartedly! Unfortunately, it clearly isn't doing so at the moment. Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:23
  • @KevinB I think you missed the point of my comment. In your example you are still requesting/indicating to another user how they should vote, which is clearly wrong. What if the comment was something more like "If this answer was helpful or not, instead of +/-1 you can vote on it." and include a link to the help section. It makes no demands/requests and serves to direct a user to official channels to learn how to integrate themselves with the greater community.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:27
  • 1
    @KevinB If it weren't for the rep, do you think many of these answers would occur? The rep is the primary driver of SE sites. People should feel the need to reward others for their help in most cases (if they have nothing to argue against the solutions provided).
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:47
  • @EvgenKo423 Of course, that's my argument. Gamification is the likely primary driver of this behavior, not some drive to make the site better or help users.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:49
  • 1
    @KevinB I mean the problem is not comments, the problem is people being upset from not getting the rep they deserve (in most cases).
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:56
  • Are these comments really doing so much harm that they must be removed? "Do not feel the need to educate them either [...] it's not your job" – sadly, it sounds exactly like what this answer is talking about... "nobody should feel pressured into doing so" – on the other hand there are answerers feeling pressured into not writing answers to certain users.
    – EvgenKo423
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 17:38
  • @EvgenKo423 Who is pressuring users into not writing answers to certain users?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 18:15
  • 1
    Nope. I'm never going to accept utter nonsense as solution to load. Find a better way to address the scale if it's a problem.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 20:15
-8

From my perspective...

We've always done it this way, so codifying it makes it less painful/surprising for everyone when they encounter this.

So, I'm in favor of this.

My philosophy over the last few years has always been to establish good fences. This way, you get less people who are vulnerable to the "but I want to use the system in THIS way which is not consistent with how the site is actually meant to work but is convenient for me to do so"-blowback when someone like a former me comes along and tries to correct their behavior.

85
  • 3
    Always? Didn't the system literally show askers' accept rates under their questions for the first couple of years?
    – TylerH
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:49
  • 5
    @TylerH: Then we stopped doing that crap because it generated - wait for it - tons and tons of useless comments about lawyering over this metric which meant literally nothing in the grand scheme of Q&A.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 16:54
  • 1
    Always done it what way? (P.S. OMG congrats on hitting 100K)
    – Red
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 17:04
  • 1
    @Makoto Sure, I'm not suggesting it was a good feature. Just questioning the accuracy of the statement "always done it this way" when the system literally did the opposite for a bit.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 17:48
  • 1
    @Makoto You're making a false dichotomy. This rule being absurd and overly draconian doesn't mean we can't have any rule. It means we need a good rule. This rule is so extreme it bans linking the help about it!!!
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:01
  • 1
    @jpmc26: I'm happy to agree to disagree. If someone is asking a question about their PHP application, then turns around to ask about the voting procedures of their question, I would strongly argue that that isn't germane to their question.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:11
  • 1
    @jpmc26: Ultimately...it's not relevant. If guidance really does have to be provided it needs to be provided by the system. By just using the system and its messaging, you send a consistent message as opposed to sending something inconsistent through a whole bunch of comments that try to do something that - honestly - Stack Overflow really needs to step up to do to bridge the gap on.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:17
  • 1
    It's as if we're at each others throats over solving a problem that's caused by the SO Team not improving the software in years. Maybe begin pushing against the problem instead of "fixing" it for them through abusing the wrong tools?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:18
  • 1
    @jpmc26 I mean, that's actually a great thing to bring up, the fact that this policy will be enforced through handling flags and moderators making judgement calls, just like all other policies. You're not gonna get banned or probably even messaged over a one off, much less general conversational comments related to edits that have been made.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:46
  • 2
    It is only your opinion that it is draconian. Care to describe what makes it draconian?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:47
  • 1
    That's not what is being punished.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:48
  • 2
    The opening post says they want to implement a policy that can be linked to that will be used to better inform users who routinely post such comments why they are being deleted, and informing them that if they continue to post them in this format, they will be suspended.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:49
  • 1
    The evidence of that is in how this policy has been implemented thus far. The users who have run afoul of it received a mod message, they continued posting such comments anyway, resulting in a suspension. The suspension could have been easily avoided by not continuing to do the thing you were warned about. An official policy page on meta for it would clearly explain why it is in place and act as a place where it can be discussed.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:52
  • 1
    @KevinB It is punishing people for linking the help pages, and has happened. The issue with the mod message was that it made no reference to comments of this type, instead only a referencing statement about requesting votes/accepts. If users aren't expressly making these requests in comments do you see where the ambiguity and frustration occurs? This entire meta post is a dumpster fire.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:57
  • 2
    @jpmc26: What the mod team is telling you is that this is no longer legitimate activity. Well, they're not exactly telling you this. They're just making it more explicit. It's always been at their discretion and they've looked the other way up until now.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 19, 2022 at 21:58
-9

...it's frustrated some users who were genuinely unaware.

I can see why.

In your future moderator messages (that is, if there will be any more) regarding this, I would recommend adding something along the lines of

We are aware of this post by a moderator that suggests otherwise, and how this wasn't explicitly stated in any of the guides. This is actually something that we just started are acting on recently.

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