49

I'm not sure how prevalent this is network wide, but we see a lot of comments on Stack Overflow from the owner of a post that goes something like this:

Would the downvoter care to comment?

There are many variants, but all include the word "downvote" or some variant. These comments are useless as the downvoter obviously doesn't get notified of the comment and the only tangible result could be further downvotes for the post.

Users do a great job in flagging these and such flags are really easy to process, but it seems like it doesn't really need a moderator to delete these.

I'd like to propose adding a new rule to the single flag comment deletion:

If the comment is from the post owner and includes the word "downvote" or variant then a single flag should be delete the comment.

It's important to note that this would only be for comments by the post owner, comments from other users should not be susceptible to this rule.

Thoughts?

One thought that has occurred to me is that perhaps there should be an age component in the rule as well in that it should only kick in if the post/comment is older than a week(?). This way the comment stays for new posts - unless the flag is processed by a moderator - and there's a chance the poster gets a reply that's helpful. Beyond this time I don't think that such comments help.

Someone else asked about comments asking for upvotes. I hadn't originally considered those, but they could be covered by this rule as well. Comments asking for acceptance are already covered by a single flag delete rule.

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    Yep, it makes sense. It should also include other common ones, such as "Who is the anonymous downvoter?", "Why was my post downvoted?", and a few others.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:18
  • 45
    I'd support this if there also was a length limit. Some comments could still be useful, and add additional information in a way that doesn't warrant single-flag deletiojn Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:27
  • 8
    I would rather prefer a bit more complicated heuristics, specifically one used by the system for a single-flag deletion of comments containing "thanks". It seems to somehow depend on comment length - I don't know exact details but in my experience it manages to reasonably well differentiate between clearly delete-worthy comments and those that are more in gray area
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:28
  • 24
    Should there also be a check if the post was actually downvoted? Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:30
  • 6
    @10Rep well ... there must be some vote reversals then: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1291896 ;)
    – rene
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:48
  • 4
    @10Rep given the amount of comments on SO it was unlikely I wouldn't find one case. I agree with the spirit of your initial comment. Let's not over engineer this.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 21:43
  • 9
    I'd just like to put in my perspective as a relatively new user here. Any time I get a downvote, I always try to learn from it, so I can produce better content in the future. I often leave a simple comment saying "Please accompany any downvotes with a reason". As far as I've been able to discern, nobody seems to have a problem with with such comments. I'm not addressing anyone in particular, I'm just asking if anyone might be willing to point me in the right direction. It seems like this algorithm would delete comments like these, though. Please correct me if these comments are undesirable. Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 21:47
  • 10
    @CharlieArmstrong with a comment like that you're at the mercy of who sees the question next and whether they see the same thing that the downvoter saw. Any comments anyone else makes are going to be pure speculation.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 21:49
  • 5
    @10Rep I would include "downvoter" and "downvoted" in my variants list. I didn't want to get too prescriptive at this point.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 21:50
  • 27
    Why is "upvote" excluded? "If you find my post helpful, please upvote it"
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 22:00
  • 5
    @Scratte While I agree that users harassing OP's to "upvote my answer" is a valid concern, I think it is sometimes useful to educate new users who aren't well versed with the voting system. At least, it isn't more pointless than asking why you were downvoted (the original point of this question) because in the worst case that can lead to downvote wars and (in my case) being stalked.
    – cs95
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 23:52
  • 11
    Are such comments really a problem? What is the original problem? Do mods need to spend too much time to react on commnet flags? There are certain categories of useless comments: thanks, rants, chatty, outdated, etc. Now this ones. They all need to be manually handled, right? Or is there some logic behind what await for 5 flags to autodelete no longer needed flags? If so, then why bother? Some of such comments will be cleaned anyways, others stay. I don't see a problem with latters.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 7:17
  • 9
    "These comments are useless as the downvoter obviously doesn't get notified of the comment and the only tangible result could be further downvotes for the post." Have to subjectively disagree with this. Several times, an OP asking for feedback has been a signal that it is not some gimma-da-codezz junk but they genuinely do care about their question, and giving feedback is not a waste of effort. That applies both to questions that I downvote and follow (in case they get edited to shape) and to questions which I only see after others downvoted them. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 11:33
  • 17
    Often enough I see comments of the type "I didn't downvote but these are possible reasons why your contribution might be downvoted...." and they are helpful. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 15:53
  • 8
    Have to agree with the other commenters, the "why the downvotes" comments kinda signal that the OP cares; it's a weird path that got us here. Obscure posts seemingly get downvotes just to feed the roomba with no comment, if I see that the OP at least bothered to come back I figure some roomba vigilante was at work instead of a real reason to downvote. It's not very democratic that one user types up something and another user can delete it with one vote for no reason, but that's kinda where we're at. Too much content coming in, not enough readers / voters.
    – jrh
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 20:11

9 Answers 9

55

Sometimes even if the original downvoter doesn't see the comment, someone else can contribute a guess as to why the downvote occurred. Even if it's wrong, it's still probably useful information.

For example, a downvote on Meta indicates disagreement rather than factual incorrectness as it would on the main site.

If our goal is to turn newbies to the site into productive members, it's counter productive to remove this means of constructive feedback.

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  • 13
    I'm not talking about meta. This would be for the main site only. Anyone else answering the comment is simply speculating.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 6:34
  • 25
    Maybe speculation is OK. If someone says "your post was downvoted because it had problem X", we don't need the "downvoted" part, but we do need the "problem X" part. You can fix the problem regardless.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 6:49
  • 14
    @ChrisF That speculation can still be useful for newbies.
    – Smile
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 6:50
  • 9
    Or the opposite.... "don't worry about that downvote, your question is fine" ....although that case is really really rare
    – charlietfl
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 7:57
  • 16
    FWIW, seeing that an OP make the effort to honestly ask for help to improve usually is a signal to me that offering that help is worth my time – in addition to voting as usual. That applies to questions I did downvote before (and followed/revisited), those I did not downvote at all (but could see others doing so) and those I still downvoted despite their comment. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 11:38
  • 3
    Those wishing to provide constructive feedback should not need a comment prompting them to do so. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 12:33
  • 6
    @HereticMonkey sometimes people are bashful about making constructive comments unless they're sure they'll be taken in the spirit that they're given. Specifically asking for a comment makes it clear. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 14:26
  • 3
    @HereticMonkey most people are unlikely to leave such a comment without mentioning the motivation for asking. Mentioning the downvote means you're aware that someone thinks there's something wrong that needs fixing. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 14:53
  • 2
    The moderators are already deleting these kinds of comments; this proposal would just make it automatic. Your argument against deleting these comments is irrelevant. My point was that it is simple to work around the automatic nature of the flag if your goal is to get the feedback this answer declares is required. If your point is that you don't care about getting the feedback to the users, but rather to stop moderators from responding to the flags, that should be a separate Meta question. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 15:16
  • 7
    @HereticMonkey if the system is already causing these comments to be deleted, I think that is a problem. Making it more automatic to delete them makes the problem worse. I'm opposed to making a problem worse. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 15:28
  • 3
    If seeing a "why the downvote" comment is the only reason someone who didn't downvote is providing a comment... clearly they don't feel too strongly about the criticism they are providing.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 15:39
  • 5
    @KevinB it may be the only reason someone stopped long enough to think about why there's a problem. I'll often just move along if I don't immediately see anything I can contribute. A plea for help may get me to take a second look. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 15:42
  • 8
    I see this often enough. People do give feedback when asked for, even if they are not the downvoter. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 15:55
  • 9
    @KevinB: I beg to differ. Feedback is a gift, and I only give that when I am (fairly) sure that it will be appreciated. Random strangers on the Internet asking bad questions are (in my experience) usually not people appreciating feedback, so I don't waste my time. If they do want feedback (as indicated by a polite request for a downvote explanation), I'll be glad to provide it.
    – Heinzi
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 11:27
  • 3
    @KevinB Humans usually interact. It is unlikely you are completely unaffected by the words of another person.
    – Passer By
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 12:05
26

These comments are useless as the downvoter obviously doesn't get notified of the comment and the only tangible result could be further downvotes for the post.

This statement from the question is too pessimistic. Nobody is guaranteed to get an answer from his comment on SE, and this is true whether the intended recipient is notified or not.

But the comments are not pointless for at least three reasons:

  1. Especially on smaller tags, the downvoter may revisit the page if there is new activity (or if he has followed the post).

  2. There may be other users that may help explain the flaw in the post, and help the OP improve it.

  3. The proposition that it only leads to further downvotes needs to be demonstrated. An opposite hypothesis would be that it could lead to future potential downvoters explain their reasoning rather than piling on.

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    4. The presence of the word “downvote” does not prove that the downvoter is the target. It could be the opposite: “If you change ‘…’ to ‘…’ I will retract my downvote”. Or “I suppose, you got the downvote because…”
    – Holger
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 7:02
  • 3
    @Holger But this would only apply to the post owners comment's. Why would the owner of the post comment on their own post that they will retract their downvote if something is changed?
    – ivarni
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:21
  • 3
    @ivarni let’s say, I commented “do … and I will retract my downvote” and then, the post owner comments “I did …, can you retract the downvote?”. I already encountered such comment where the post owner just assumed that I was the one who voted. Even when I wasn’t the one who voted, I then responded to the edits they made. Given that downvoters do not get a notification when the post has been edited, we might ask whether it would be better if the post owner could send a message to downvoters (without getting to know their identity).
    – Holger
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:48
  • @Holger My memory is a bit hazy on this but I think the notification you get when mentioned sticks around even if the comment is deleted? Might just be me never turning off my computer or closing my tabs. Either way, for that scenario to happen someone would need to flag the reply from the OP and I'm just not sure this is likely enough to happen to warrant not offloading the handling of all these comments from the mods.
    – ivarni
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:50
  • 4
    These comments are deleted all the time. Mods will honour flags on this comments. The question starts off on this premise. Arguing for the keeping these comments and declining these flags belongs into a separate question.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:36
  • 2
    @yivi: I am not against someone asking that question too, but I think this answer is still relevant to the question asked here. Single flag auto delete will lead to many more of these comments being deleted before there is time for them to be addressed.
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:39
  • You can achieve the same effect without including "Downvoter" or "Person who dowvoted", etc.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 15:27
  • 1
    @yivi Is there no middle ground? This is pushing further "destroy absolutely every downvote comment by OP", and you could argue that it shouldn't be pushed that hard by its utility, small and unlikely as it might be. Nuking things will inevitably cause collateral damage and the argument against will always be that the damage is too high.
    – Passer By
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 12:18
  • 3
    @PasserBy These comments cause collateral damage as they are. The create noise, they provoke arguments, they create the false expectation that votes should be explained. And what's worse, more often than not those posting those are not really looking for feedback to improve their posts, but to argue about "undeserved" votes. Removal is the best way to go, as we do with every other kind of noise.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 12:26
  • 1
    @yivi I'm not arguing whether they should stay or not, but that it is very much the point of the discussion here.
    – Passer By
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:19
  • 2
    @PasserBy Not sure what you are arguing then. There is no "nuking" or "destroying". The policy is the same as always, to remove these comments. The point of the proposal is to make it easier and to save on moderator time.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:21
  • 1
    @yivi The proposal is the nuking option. I'm saying it isn't the case that "Arguing for the keeping these comments and declining these flags belongs into a separate question", you gotta discuss to what degree should you delete these comments.
    – Passer By
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:24
  • 1
    No, @PasserBy. There proposal simply makes deleting potentially faster, that's all. And even then, the proposal does make allowances for comment age (and comment length, and other heuristics)
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:26
  • 2
    @yivi The proposal takes all the brakes off. No one reviews that flag then. It's not just faster.
    – Passer By
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:28
  • 1
    @PasserBy You seem to be ignoring the other heuristics that would apply. Also, it can already happen with a few NLN flags. So it's not a huge change. It simply saves on resources where the outcome is known beforehand. I don't think I can add anything more here, and I don't want to ping the post owner unnecessarily. I'm off.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:30
13

My hunch (limited experience) is that there are two very different types of people commenting "Why the downvote?"

  • People worried about the reputation, and little else

These people post low-quality answers, trying to get Upvotes/Reputation by being the first, even if not the best. Or they post answers that are incomplete, but "barely good enough". Etc. These are the ones where, when they complain ask about the downvotes, they basically already know the reason. These should be flagged and deleted.

  • People who post quality answers and don't understand the downvotes.

I see this quite a bit on DIY. Often with some of the top users of the site. They don't care much about the reputation (they've already got all the reputation they could ever need) but they do care about providing quality answers.

They get downvotes with no comment/explanation. Something they missed? Something they wrote offended someone? Revenge downvotes? Something else? They honestly want to know what is going on. Sometimes other high-rep users will actually +1 deliberately to compensate, where they otherwise would not bother to vote on the post (not because they think it is a bad post but just "why +1 90% of the posts on the site").

Admittedly, most of the time this second group gets no serious answer to "why the downvote", but once in a while they might, and it is a valid question for them to ask.

I think the real problem is that a lot of users simply don't understand how to use the system well. Maybe they truly disagree with something in an Answer, but rather than commenting to ask for clarification, or writing their own Answer as an alternative, they just -1 and move on. That downvote helps nobody.

The goal here should not be "only positive votes" - that leads to a cultural problem experienced on many sites, and the "you can vote up but not down on comments" feeds into that mentality. But when the posts are legitimate and serious and there are downvotes, explaining those downvotes is key to improving the quality of those posts.

Quality posts is what this should be about, not a bunch of rules.

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  • 7
    A "bunch of rules" is the only thing that allows us to separate the quality posts from the deluge of low quality ones. And deleting these comments simply serves to try to cut down the noise, so that the signal is better received.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 16:31
  • 3
    I am very much in favor of rules. My concern is that sometimes detailed rules get put in place, instead of concentrating on common sense. But don't worry, I won't ask "why the downvotes" on this post :-) Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 17:20
  • Other sites on the network don't have the problem this rule intends to address, so what is the point in bringing them up? It's like we're arguing about oranges and you decided to start talking about bananas.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:17
  • "instead of concentrating on common sense"? Why isn't common sense not to refer to the vote, then?
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:52
12

Those who still think that this isn't a problem should check out this SEDE query, which captures the full list of comments with a list of keywords related with downvotes and variations of the same concept (downvote, downvoting, down vote, down-vote, ...), since the beginning of the month.

The number of comments captured fulfilling the criteria reaches the hundreds: more than 350 from the first of September to last Sunday, at the time of writing. At the beginning of the week, one can easily use up a full day's comment flag capacity just by traversing the list and picking up all the key phrases: "why the downvote?", "how could this possibly receive a downvote?", "downvoter care to explain?", the classic "if you downvote leave a comment", and of course, "downvoting without an explanation is unhelpful and unwelcoming especially to a new contributor", among others.

Do note also that this number is far from the effective number of comments of this nature. These are only the ones overlooked by curation by time the SEDE database was last updated. The Heat Detector and the unfriendly comment robot already do a great job at finding the most problematic ones, namely the ones involving insults or name calling over downvotes (which happen more often than we'd wish). Still, so many fall through the cracks, making the numbers above far from the true number of comments arguing over downvotes. Finding out the true number of flag-worthy comments would require powers that a moderator is likely to have. One might try to argue that this only makes 0.315% of all comments posted during the same time range, but this is a red herring. Not all comments are in need of being flagged, so they do not portray a handling cost to the moderators. And again, the numerator of that ratio is only the small number of comments which were yet not flagged by the end of the week.

Even though it is well established knowledge that we should be focusing on the content rather than the downvotes, people still like discussing downvotes. They like it too much. If this better moderated and then explained in a canonical Meta Q&A, we are inviting people to stop focusing on the wrong matter, just as intended.

We have such a mechanism in place for "Thank you" comments, which are not even as problematic to keep as the ones complaining about downvotes: the former often represents resolution, whereas the latter can spark the kind of argument comments were not made for.

If a single flag triggered the removal of these comments, the objective already hardcoded by our moderators would be fulfilled substantially faster. Being applicable only to owners of the post will miss some of them, but it's an improvement nonetheless.

Let us bring the platform to good values and be done with the pointless arguing over this.

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    So you say that 350 of such comments in 6 days is an extremely large number and huge problem. For clarity, do you have the total number of comments posted in the same period, so that we can see the percentage of these comments?
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:50
  • 8
    Not that you have shown why any percentage would be problematic, other than "focusing on content rather than votes". The purpose of these comments is presumably to understand the reason for the votes, in order to be able to improve the content, or at least not post such content in the future.
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:52
  • 28
    I clicked some of these comments randomly and right the first two were comments explaining why the post was getting or likely to get downvotes. So you should refine your query to actually show only post of the “why the downvote” kind. Otherwise, it’s a proof of the opposite: the presence of the word “downvote” does not indicate that the comment had no value.
    – Holger
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:53
  • 3
    @user000001 Only a moderator may have a better idea of the effective total number of comments. The 350+ comments are supposed to be traces, or leftovers, that were overlooked in curation. And considering that a moderator posted the proposal, it isn't far off to assume that they perceive it as a problem.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 9:53
  • 8
    If anybody is interested, the number is 363/115183 * 100 = 0.315 %, according to this query data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/edit/1292218
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:01
  • 8
    @E_net4thepostjanitor so what is this statistic proving? When you don’t know how many comments actually worth removing are within these results, it doesn’t illustrate “the problem”. Even for this unknown fraction of comments actual worth removing, a significant number does not need to be handled, as the low quality post got deleted anyway. So, how big is “the problem” in reality?
    – Holger
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:06
  • 8
    The porcentage over total comments is only relevant from certain perspective, if at all. The net amount is relevant here, because these comments absorb both flags from users and time from moderators. Considering almost all of these flagged comments will have to be deleted anyway, being more efficient and expedient make sense. Since this only affects comments that are actually flagged by real users, not a blind algorithm, chances of "false positives" are even less of a concern.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:07
  • 6
    No @user000001, the ultimate cause is users posting comments that are flag-worthy. If you simply disagree with the deletion of these comments, you are being disingenuous with your position on this. The premise here is that these comments need deleting. Also, the name is "yivi", not "yiy".
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:26
  • 7
    "if you downvote leave a comment", and of course, "downvoting without an explanation is unhelpful and unwelcoming especially to a new contributor": I don't think it's a problem to see these comments. Why do you want to remove them? They are friendly reminders that downvoting with comments is always better, to be able to improve. Why would we necessarily want to remove them?
    – Basj
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:32
  • 7
    It's an absurd argument at this point. These comments are deleted. All the time. Any flag on a comment of this nature will be honoured and deleted, barring a mistake. So arguing for keeping this around is kinda pointless, and if anything it would belong to a different question "please do not delete comments asking about voting".
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:34
  • 6
    The discussion about wether we should humour users demanding feedback on votes does perhaps belong elsewhere than here. The overwhelming consensus on that, at least on meta, is nope which is why these comments are now manually deleted. The discussion here is about automating something we already do.
    – ivarni
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:37
  • 8
    @Basj it's an even greater problem to keep those comments, because they send the misleading message that explaining downvotes is the recommended or "ethical" course of action, hence shaming the downvoter from doing something that's in their right to do. One does not have to leave a comment when downvoting. Comments are actually not always better. And being kind to new contributors does not mean we should refrain from downvoting or close voting their posts.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:37
  • 14
    @E_net4thepostjanitor Of course, but again, is it really a problem to see "I'm not sure why someone downvoted, do you think we could do something to improve the question?". This is perfectly fine for me, and I don't think it's a good thing to allow a single person with a very strict interpreation of this rule, with a single flag, to be able to delete them.
    – Basj
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:41
  • 13
    It's not a new rule. The outcome of the flag will be the exact same but the mods would have more time to handle flags that actually require them to do moderation.
    – ivarni
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:43
  • 7
    @user000001 well, 0.315% is higher then 0.015% and that last percentage was a serious problem a year ago that needed immediate action....
    – rene
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 14:25
7

TLDR: With automatic delayed deletion this seems like a clear win.

One thought that has occurred to me is that perhaps there should be an age component in the rule as well in that it should only kick in if the post/comment is older than a week(?). This way the comment stays for new posts - unless the flag is processed by a moderator - and there's a chance the poster gets a reply that's helpful. Beyond this time I don't think that such comments help.


As noted in many comments, moderators already delete such flagged comments indiscriminatingly. For all intents and purposes, flags already imply automatic deletion. (If any moderator disagrees, feel free to comment.)

Automatic deletion is not a bad thing.


As noted in many comments, many people do see some value in such comments. This is usually seen as showing that a new poster is genuinely interested in feedback on asking a proper question, instead of just grabbing for any answers.

Immediate deletion is a bad thing, then.


So it seems there is literally nothing wrong with just delaying automatic deletion. It yields both less work for moderators and longer lifetime of request-for-feedback markers.

Sign me up!

2

Scenario:

  1. There is a site that once wanted to be one great knowledge base about everything programming-related, where users collectively improve this knowledge by collaborative editing and voting.
  2. There are a lot of people incapable of asking an answerable, useful, unique question.
  3. There are a lot of people incapable of providing valuable answers.
  4. Posts from #2 and #3 get posted a lot. People who still care somewhat about quality, downvote such posts.
  5. Posters who get their post downvoted don't understand why, and post a comment asking for clarification.
  6. Some users, such as me sometimes, then try to care enough to try and educate them, by explaining why their post could be downvoted. This usually results in endless discussion, revenge downvoting, being ignored or in very rare occasions in a "Thanks, you were right, I learned something", followed by an edit or deletion of this post.

Solution:

  • Let's make it easier to remove comments asking why posts were downvoted.

Or, you know, there could be harsher actions against revenge downvoting. Or a flag option that says "Some more experts in this tag should look at this post and it's spreading misinformation or a bad practice and should probably be deleted altogether". Also, if this comment comes from a user genuinely not knowing what they did wrong, and all they get are links to page long FAQs that don't contain very explicitly what they did "wrong" (if anything), we now have a user who doesn't know what they did wrong and wondering where their comment went.

I don't want to offend the flaggers, moderators, queue warriors and flag burninators, but in my opinion the biggest problem of the site is still the average post quality and the way that's handled (i.e. saying "Just downvote and move on" for more than ten years).

Sure, removing 350 "why the downvote?" comments may feel like a great cleanup for some, and if it's really that big a burden on the mod team it may be something worth looking into, but for me it still feels like a lot of effort for zero real benefit.

tl;dr: no.

10
  • 1
    "Some more experts in this tag should look at this post and it's spreading misinformation or a bad practice and should probably be deleted altogether" -- yes, that would be great. Literally anything qualifies as an answer, and I'm not supposed to use SO Close Vote Reviewers for this, so there's really no mechanism for suggesting answers for deletion.
    – jrh
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 23:12
  • The problem is that the things that you've suggested, that actually need to happen, aren't going to happen because they take time to think about and effort to implement, and Stack Exchange Inc. ain't got time for that! The only features that make it into the SE platform are those that take the bare minimum of effort, which is what this suggestion is. Yes, it's equivalent to putting a band-aid on a bullet wound, but that's still better than doing nothing.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:09
  • 2
    @jrh Stack Exchange the company is no longer concerned with quality, but quantity. That means that anything that could result in deletion of content is an anathema to them, hence feature suggestions for the same generally end up in a black hole. Bad answers are good answers to SE Inc., for the simple reason that they get Google traffic - deleted answers get no traffic.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:12
  • 1
    "This usually results in endless discussion, revenge downvoting, being ignored or in very rare occasions in a "Thanks, you were right, I learned something", followed by an edit or deletion of this post" priming the user to ask feedback instead of focusing on the one that downvote would help the later to happen more often.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:20
  • 1
    @CodeCaster I would quote Shog: Explaining votes is almost pure noise, meta-conversation and punditry. Your votes are your own to do with as you please; you owe no one an explanation, nor is a discussion of your voting habits likely to be helpful.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 15:50
  • 1
    The later comment doesn't ask for such discussion and is more productive, also show that you are more interested in the actual feedback (how to improve the post) rather than the way the feedback was expressed (why you meanie downvoted). If nobody is obligated to give you feedback on the vote, why ask for it anyways?
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 15:52
  • 1
    @CodeCaster because 1) read the Obsetion title of this post; 2) not giving feedback on some authors is more productive, since it motivates self criticism; and 3) and related to the above it's very important that users self educate and when that fail, provide tailored guidance, the later which is costly for many users. How many users have you educated today commenting on every post you have voted on?
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 17:07
  • 1
    @Braiam 1) that post's title, answer and quote you took from it are about commenting about your vote. The gist of that Q&A is that you don't post "-1 doesn't compile" on an answer, you say "There's a compiler error at line 5, did you mean new Foo()?", or nothing at all after you cast your vote.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 23:47
  • 2
    @Braiam 2) not everyone learns the best from tough love
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 23:48
  • @CodeCaster Why people downvote posts? Read the tool tip. That's all they actually need.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 11, 2020 at 19:31
1

I don't know why stopping there. For me, these comments are in the same category as the -1/+1 comments: distracting, fruitless and a potential minefield for anyone involved. So I would prefer the same treatment we give to those comments: block them before they get posted with a guidance on how to ask for feedback instead.

I think I've twice asked for feedback in the comment section of my own posts and only once I got response, since every other time I asked peers on chat rooms to ask them what they see wrong with the content.

8
  • 7
    `If you block them, we'll just get comments asking why the dwonvote? Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 17:11
  • 2
    @RobertLongson I can live with that.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 0:07
  • Your answer kinda indirectly answered my question below about "how should one ask for feedbacks" => asking on the chat (although I somehow am too intimidated to go over the chat).
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 10:59
  • 2
    @Clockwork you can ask for feedback in comments to, but without someone already offering said feedback it's kind of shouting into the void hoping that it respond back. Also, while I said "peers" it's more of "acquaintances", or users that I know on the site.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:17
  • 1
    "-1 This answer has significant issues such as ... and you shouldn't ever do this" might not be the best way to leave feedback, but I certainly wouldn't call it either "distracting" or "fruitless". How would other people (who aren't experts) know there's something wrong, especially on high-scoring answers? How would the author know there's something wrong so they can potentially fix the issue or delete their answer? Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 15:24
  • @BernhardBarker "This answer has significant issues such as ... and you shouldn't ever do this" is already good feedback, why should you distract the user with the way you voted?
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 15:54
  • @Braiam I wouldn't and don't, but some people do. The "-1" itself might be distracting and/or fruitless, but the comment overall might not be. Unless that's what you meant or you were referring to comments that just say they downvoted without providing any explanation. Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 19:12
  • @BernhardBarker again, I'm not against providing any kind of feedback, but including the vote distracts so much that SE decided that it was enough so they block it outright! Ask them what effects had have the change. animuson usually is the one that deals with them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 11, 2020 at 19:32
-4

Does it mean I should create a meta post instead of posting a comment to ask for feedback to know what I should improve whenever I get a downvote?

I know this is not an answer to the question, but I want to know what would be the best course of action if I, as a poster, honestly want to learn from my error and asking for feedback for a downvote in the comment section is just as sanctioned as spamming.

10
  • 4
    It's not "sanctioned as spamming". There are no penalties. But if other users see a comment asking for vote explanation, they are liable to flag it and comment is likely to be removed. You won't be punished in any way. Piece of advise: you can ask for feedback without referring to voting at all.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 10:08
  • 2
    @yivi Isn't there a risk that people would implicitly come to the conclusion that asking for feedback means you got a downvote and flag it for deletion anyway? Since "these comments are useless as the downvoter obviously doesn't get notified of the comment"
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 10:15
  • 3
    It's completely different, and not related to this question. Those flags (if cast at all) would never automatically delete the comment, and if the comment is asking for feedback and guidance and not asking about who downvoted and why, flags on those comments are likely to be declined.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 10:18
  • 3
    You might as well just ask a rubber duck why someone downvoted your question. The person who downvoted it is not going to see your comment, so the next viewer will have as much idea as the rubber duck. There is no need to make an explicit request for feedback. If someone wants to provide it, they will. If they don't, then that's their choice.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 8:55
  • @CodyGray I understand what you mean. But what I meant to ask is: how would one get to find a way to learn and improve if reading the existing materials isn't clear enough? I'm not saying that it isn't clear for me, I'm saying that I happen to still have questions even after reading. In that case, would opening a meta post to ask for feedback a better alternative than posting a comment to ask for feedback?
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 9:40
  • 1
    tl;dr: What is the best course of action to get feedback if you sincerely don't know what has to be improved?
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 9:53
  • 3
    Search and Read. Read the FAQ. Read the help center. Search both Meta SO and [Meta SE]((meta.stackexchange.com). Search sites make this easier by providing site-specific search using site:meta.stackoverflow.com or site:meta.stackexchange.com. That will tell you almost all of the reasons people downvote. The "reasons" mind you, there are plenty of people who vote with no reason; nothing to do about them. Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 12:29
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey So basically, in the event that I still don't know what can be improved after reading all the materials, I should just assume it's one of those occasional unjustified downvote?
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 12:35
  • 2
    In that unlikely event, yes. But I would encourage reading and searching first before making assumptions. And again, you can always ask for help improving a question on Meta or in a language-specific chat room (if the room's rules allow it). I would suggest waiting until you have more than one or two downvotes before bringing a question to Meta though... Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 12:40
  • 3
    @CodyGray I can often see possible reasons for a downvote on a post (and more often if the post has multiple downvotes), and I do sometimes reply if I see someone asking why something was downvoted. It's useful to see that the person is at least potentially open to feedback (even if them asking may also just be a sign of denial). I've also often gone back to posts I've downvoted to see if there are any comments or edits. So asking is probably at least a little more useful than asking a rubber duck. Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 23:22
-15

Should a single flag be able to delete a comment from the post owner that includes the word “downvote” (or variation thereof)?

No.

The more we add new rules for each small situation, the more complex it becomes for the community members to actually remember them, and then it emphasizes a feeling of blurriness about moderation rules for the average member.

"Oh, I remember there is probably this rule number 23761 about this specific case, but I don't remember?"

"Never mind, I can't find it anymore, it was probably something else - there are so many rules nowadays!"

The balance benefit / burden to remember all these micro-rules is not worth it.

Let's keep things simple!


Notes:

  • New rules always come with some side-effects. Example let's say someone adds this comment:

    "I don't know why someone downvoted, but I want to add that <... very interesting additional information ... >

    Then one single flag by someone who acts quickly by seeing the keyword "downvote", or someone who has a very strict interpretation of this rule, could lead to the deletion of useful information.

  • ... important to note that this would only be for comments by the post owner, comments from other users should not ...

    This is even one more layer of complexity to remember!

13
  • 17
    When flagging a comment the only thing you should need to keep in mind is "should I flag this comment?". If the answer is 'yes' then you flag it, you don't need to run around remembering what triggers automated deletion or not and it should not be a factor in the decision process when flagging.
    – ivarni
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 7:29
  • 1
    @ivarni I like to remember what are the consequences of my actions ("you don't need to run around remembering what triggers automated deletion or not"). Here it would be one more rule to remember. But more generally, is this situation such a big problem? OP hasn't included links to show how big a problem this is in real situations.
    – Basj
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 7:32
  • 12
    Why do you care about the different consequences here? If you are confident that you are flagging correctly then effectively auto deletion is just the same as moderator deletion but speeded up. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 8:16
  • 3
    There indeed seems to be quite a difference between "should I flag this for attention/inspection/vote" and "should I flag this for immediate deletion". The primary purpose of a flag is to flag, not to delete – being aware of exceptions is important to remember. Do I want someone else (a moderator) to have a look, or do I want this to be purged silently? This seems similar to dupe hammers, which I know people (myself included) to wield differently than dupe votes or even dupe flags. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 10:25
  • 6
    @MisterMiyagi The primary (and only) objective "no longer needed" flags for comments (which is type of flag addressed by this question) is to delete the comment. There is no other objective nor possible outcome barring the flag being declined. If one does not firmly believe a comment is better deleted, one shouldn't flag. There is nothing more to it.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 11:09
  • 2
    @yivi "barring the flag being declined" The point is that usually a flag can be declined. People tend to err every now and then. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 11:16
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi But this would be a problem only if a user err on a comment with a specific wording. So the margin of error is very small. Since a moderator is making this proposal, one can very easily infer they are not worried about the amount of misflagging regarding this, and that these comments are simply deleted on sight.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 11:19
  • @MisterMiyagi if system will use the same heuristics as one that currently works for single-flag deletion of comments containing "thanks" then the risk is going to be minimal. A while ago I experimented with "gray area" comments (those where I myself preferred system not to automatically trust me but instead let human mod re-check my judgement - including possible decline). And it worked like a charm - system kept all these comments. Per my observations this heuristic tends to be a bit conservative in keeping stuff, which is a good thing because this makes me feel safer about comments flags
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 12:58
  • 4
    I have 2,030 comment flags, only 46 of which were declined in nearly 4 years of flagging (approximately 2%), so even if they auto-deleted every single flag I cast it would be right the vast majority of the time. I don't think that this will delete "good" content much. (Also, only 5 of the declined flags were "No Longer Needed" flags - most of them were presumably for cases where I interpreted the comment as condescending but the moderator didn't agree). That being said, if I'm representative, this rule will be "wrong" less than 0.2% of time. Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 13:21
  • 4
    @Basj Your example "I don't know why someone downvoted..." reads like it was posted by someone other than the post owner. As such it wouldn't get deleted by my proposed rule. The rule would only apply to comments from the post owner.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 14:26
  • @ChrisF It could be written by the post owner as well.
    – Basj
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 19:38
  • 1
    @CodeCaster There must be a misunderstanding: I never said that people downvote answers because of random rules. I totally agree with you: people downvote because of content quality, and the goal is content curation. This is fine - and even necessary - to keep content quality high, I didn't criticized this. When I spoke about "rules", it was not about the downvotes themselves, it was rules that make comments disappear, etc.
    – Basj
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:56
  • 1
    @Basj alright, thanks for that clarification!
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2020 at 13:57

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