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May 20, 2022 at 12:22 history edited iBug CC BY-SA 4.0
All formatting broke, 🍎
May 20, 2022 at 12:21 comment added iBug @CodyGray If the intention is to handle the exceptional cases, then be explicit about it. The proposal, as is currently written, makes a blanket ban that's affecting negatively and harmfully all the innocent. / Other arguments on "deserved reward" and "motivation" have been covered thoroughly by other users, which I find verbose to repeat here.
May 20, 2022 at 12:10 comment added Cody Gray Mod …maybe that's just because we're still doing a poor job of communicating what is going on here. The intention is to handle the exceptional cases, to deal with the mountain that we know exists because we've been climbing it for the past several months. We're still seeking better approaches. That said, arguments about a "deserved green check mark" just fall onto deaf ears with me. I just can't buy into that. Nobody deserves any type of reward. That kind of objective assessment just can't be justified, and especially not by the person who posted that answer. There's just far too much bias.
May 20, 2022 at 12:08 comment added Cody Gray Mod The fact that you're not seeing this at a large scale doesn't mean that it isn't happening at a large scale. If anything, that's evidence that moderators have spent a lot of time handling it, which is why we're wanting to do something about it. Also, as has been noted multiple times, both in the initial post and in the comments, we mods had initially just been handling these exceptional cases, but we got a lot of pushback about it, so we are trying to do better about explaining our motivations to the community and getting their opinions. What we're hearing is surprising, but…
May 20, 2022 at 9:06 comment added iBug @CodyGray Re the previous comment: There's no way to construct languages that don't carry the slightest tone of "suggesting", yet for the vast majority I've seen it's the news' ignorance about our voting mechanism. Getting users onto the right way of voting reduces noise, helps sort out good answers, and more importantly, encourages us to write answers (as jfriend00 makes a solid point above). It is simply unfair that one loses a deserved green check mark just for the asker's unawareness of it, and there must be an effective way to resolve this, of which a reminder comment is the simplest.
May 20, 2022 at 8:56 comment added iBug @CodyGray If only a small number of veteran users continuously post such comments, why make it a rule so that everyone loses the right to poke around? I'm not seeing this at a large scale, so it doesn't make sense to make a mountain out of a molehill. True, a failing of the site's tooling does not justify users abusing comments, and neither do some users' behavior justify the deprivation of all's right. This is the same way relevant self-promotion is fine when used sparingly and otherwise on-topic. We handle excessive ones case-by-case, not ban everyone off from self-promotion.
May 20, 2022 at 6:24 comment added Cody Gray Mod @trlkly No, actually, I don't need to make those changes first. The real problem here is people who are leaving unconstructive comments, and leaving them in massively large numbers, on the order of thousands, primarily in cases where there is a clear conflict of interest. I can address that by simply putting a stop to those users leaving comments. Now, I agree that it would be nice to make improvements to the site and the way that users are educated. But a failing of the site's tooling does not justify users abusing comments any more than it would justify vigilante justice.
May 20, 2022 at 6:23 comment added Cody Gray Mod @MattD That's a false equivalence. Comments telling users not to post text as images, use external links, etc. are suggesting improvements to the post, which is one of the things I specifically stated as being the purpose of comments (note that I didn't make it up; it's directly from the commenting privilege description page). So, yes, comments suggesting improvements to the post are obviously allowed and will continue to be allowed. But not comments suggesting that users make decisions that are meant to be entirely personal, like voting and/or accepting.
May 20, 2022 at 3:23 comment added nvoigt "be curious enough to hover their mouse over it" always the first thing that comes to mind, when working with a tablet...
May 20, 2022 at 1:54 history edited iBug CC BY-SA 4.0
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May 19, 2022 at 20:56 comment added MattDMo @CodyGray "Teaching new users how the site works is not and has never been the purpose of comments." Really? So now I'm not allowed to leave comments telling new users not to post text as images, or use external links, or similar? Comments are how we communicate with each other and educate each other. I think you're going way overboard here.
May 19, 2022 at 20:44 comment added Kevin B @trlkly such comments are, and always have been, unnecessary.
May 19, 2022 at 20:40 comment added Bergi @CodyGray "If you want to teach users, you improve the system-provided guidance and/or get a moderator to send them a message" - that doesn't work. You're already complaining about the mod workload, and now you ask to flag for more moderator attention?! As for improving the system, we all know how little influence the community has. So comments are the only viable way for normal users to do this teaching. If you don't want to see these comments, give us the privilege to write mod messages that land in the asker's inbox as well. Or a new flag type that posts this automatically.
May 19, 2022 at 16:34 comment added Karl Knechtel "If you want to teach users, you improve the system-provided guidance and/or get a moderator to send them a message." I agree, as things stand. The problem is that the system-provided guidance is insufficient, and getting it to improve is extremely slow; and moderators are overworked and don't like being told to send specific messages to specific users by other users who aren't mods.
May 19, 2022 at 12:15 comment added trlkly @CodyGray You yourself have argued that we have to accept the site as it is, not as we ideally want it to be. And the way it is is that people do leave comments for that purpose. If you want to change that, then you need to make the changes first that make such comments unnecessary.
May 19, 2022 at 8:07 comment added Cody Gray Mod I don't know what "thanks" has to do with anything. As has been noted elsewhere, we are agreed that it would be useful to come up with system-level blocks and improved guidance for users who post "thanks" comments, but that's not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed here are comments where users ask for accepts and/or votes on an answer. If you're trying to argue that such comments would, in the long run, decrease the amount of noise, I'm afraid that is empirically denied. We've got thousands of comments like this begging for accepts going back years; it's not helping anyone.
May 19, 2022 at 7:32 history edited iBug CC BY-SA 4.0
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May 19, 2022 at 7:29 comment added iBug @CodeGray If "thanks" are noise, then telling users not to generate noise is not. It's productive. That said, the new rule proposed in this post is only relevant after we have automatic guidance on users not to say "thanks".
May 19, 2022 at 7:26 history edited iBug CC BY-SA 4.0
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May 19, 2022 at 7:24 comment added Cody Gray Mod Teaching new users how the site works is not and has never been the purpose of comments. Comments aren't directed at users; they're directed at posts. Their purpose is to suggest improvements to a post and/or ask clarification questions. If you want to teach users, you improve the system-provided guidance and/or get a moderator to send them a message. Considering we have no evidence that users are ignorant of how to use the site, as opposed to simply choosing not to use an optional feature, there is little reason to do either one. The guidance is far more than the tour and tooltips.
May 19, 2022 at 7:20 history answered iBug CC BY-SA 4.0