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Downvoting is a bigger privilege than upvoting and it plays a crucial role in keeping the content on this site clean. Downvoting is our most powerful tool for us, non-moderator users. Downvotes are a strong signal both to future readers and the author of the post that something is wrong and the experts on this site deem the post to be of little value for future readers.

The new tooltip popovers contain the following explanation:

Downvote this question if you find it unclear or not useful.
Downvote this answer if you find it unclear or not useful.

As everyone knows we rate content, not the users. Votes are not meant to be friendly or offensive. There's no shame in using the downvote button just as there is no shame in using the upvote button whenever you like. It is our own personal choice how we rate the content and what we do with our votes as long as we do not abuse the rules.

There will always be two extremes possible. Some users mostly downvote:

Some user's vote stats

However, there's a number of active users who decided to never cast a single downvote or use them very sporadically:

enter image description here

While we value contributions from both groups of users, it sometimes feels like downvotes are treated as toxic behaviour. It could be very much the reason why some people decide to never cast a single downvote even if it seems like it is easier to cast downvotes than upvotes. There are almost 8 times more upvotes on Stack Overflow than downvotes.

Downvotes are very important and necessary for this site to function properly. If a user posts an answer and the answer is wrong then we must downvote. It is not enough to just ignore and never upvote it. Without our downvotes, users might never know that their 0 scored answer was not useful. 0 score means nothing.

Upvotes and downvotes are the community's way of separating the cure from the poison. We must use both of them.

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes? Do people really value the fake Internet points so much or is it about acceptance by strangers? Why is their perception of our voting systems so skewed?

It's true that the ratio of upvotes to downvotes is often driven by the tag, but I am pretty sure that we all encounter bad questions and answers in every tag. There's always something to upvote as well as downvote. If we see a badly asked question, then we should downvote. If we see a wrong or outdated answer then we should downvote.

Do we have any ideas about what we could do or change to encourage people to spend a little bit more of their votes on downvoting posts?

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  • 61
    The solution to this problem is the holy grail of Stack Overflow. I can't overstate how important and crucial this subject is and how much effort the company should be investing in bringing downvotes as the widely admitted form of curation without the poor recurring stigma.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 16:26
  • 32
    ++, but I'll be happy starting off with fewer upvotes. I swear there is an upvote bot running on the tags where I hang. These stray, single upvotes prevent bad questions from being deleted.
    – toolic
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 16:30
  • 15
    I thought that current SO stance was that downvotes are unwelcoming and therefore discouraged.
    – Kreiri
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 18:47
  • 14
    @Kreiri that was never the case, although the misconception emerges fairly often. Relevant reading: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/366889
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 19:22
  • 8
    Getting things closed that really deserve to be closed should also be encouraged. Seems harder and harder in the current "be nice" environment to get more than one close vote sometimes even when the question is pure garbage
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 19:32
  • 32
    For anyone who decides to post an idea here: Do not delete replies under this post if they are met with disapproval. Even bad ideas bring something to the table. If your answer starts to gather downvotes, please leave it, don't delete it.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:23
  • 10
    There's definitely no stance at the company level that downvotes are "unwelcoming" or discouraged in any way. What's unwelcoming are snarky comments, which many users post in lieu of downvotes. A silent downvote on problematic content would be far better.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:25
  • 31
    Downvoting an answer is usually -1 rep. Sometimes I just let it go... I'm not proud about that either.
    – TGrif
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:54
  • 12
    there is much to much downvoting already,and not enough upvoting. the peolple should be encouraged to get a silver and gild medal for there favourite tag, but it is quite hard to reach it, when nobody upvotes, only acknowledged thh answer. we should so encourage more upvotes and less downvotes
    – nbk
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 0:27
  • 30
    @nbk Did you see this link posted in the question? "There is almost 8 times more upvotes on Stack Overflow than downvotes." I see a lot of bad questions with upvotes. Some of those are pity-upvotes where users admit in comments they upvoted because "we shouldn't be mean". This needs to stop. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 5:07
  • 19
    No, @nbk, downvotes should not be based on the skill level of the user. That has no relevance whatsoever. Votes are on posts, not on users.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:23
  • 5
    Does the SEDE query pickup downvotes on deleted posts? I know the vote timeline in profiles doesn't. I'm asking because I see users in the table who are no strangers to curation, and the ratio for them makes no sense to me. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:26
  • 6
    I don't think that's true, @nbk. As you can see from my previous comment, I cast a lot of downvotes, yet I also receive plenty of upvotes. While some users may follow a "tit for tat" sort of rule when it comes to votes, that's something that we strongly discourage, and extreme versions of that "tit for tat" approach are considered voting fraud. However, it stands to reason that answerers would upvote the question, so that in itself is not particularly suspicious. After all, if a question is good enough for you to take the time to compose an answer, why would it not be worth an upvote?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:40
  • 10
    @LearningFast so you trust humans when it comes to asking good questions, but not when it comes to downvotes? Interesting stance
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 5, 2020 at 10:50
  • 5
    @EgorBEremeev here is a proof - content rating is at the core of the website philosophy. It's mentioned in the tour. Also see Why is voting important?, vote up and the vote down privileges, as well as Expected behaviour under Be honest. Voting makes SO what it is - a good place for getting valuable answers. Downvotes are for content rating, ergo they are part of the core philosophy of SO.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 14:26

73 Answers 73

411
  • Increase the number of downvotes given to each user per day. On many days, I have run out of votes while still seeing truckloads of low quality content ("Me too!", "why does this not work [wall of code]" and "here is my assignment how do I do it [wall of text]", etc.) that I have to let slide with just a closevote or flag.
  • Remove the -1 rep cost of downvoting an answer.
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    Point 2 thats' the key. Remove that and we will be flooded by downvoted answers. Has this any chance to happen? My gut feeling is a categorical NO
    – Steve
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 18:17
  • 59
    @Steve We never witnessed a flood of downvotes on questions when the cost to downvote questions was removed years ago. There is no reason that it would be the case for downvotes on answers.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 18:22
  • 39
    @pppery There's also no harm in downvoting them either. It might be a good thing sometimes. Negative score can show the author that this is not how answers work. When a mod deletes their answer out of the blue it will be less of a shock since they will see that other people downvoted the answer. NAAs usually get deleted quickly so you get your vote back before the end of the day.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 18:28
  • 35
    @pppery - I am sorry I disagree. If you don’t downvote bad answers that are not actually an answer, the author of that answer, will never understand they are not supposed to submit those answers. There are users who will submit upwards of 10 answers within an hour span. Downvoting these low quality answers is the only way to get their attention. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 22:51
  • 30
    @pppery Deleting answers is much easier if they are negatively-scored. Therefore, if an answer needs to be deleted, you should be downvoting it. There are really no exceptions. If an answer isn't something you think deserves a downvote, then it definitely doesn't need to be deleted.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 7:13
  • 88
    Remove -1 rep... NO... Revenge down votes are real. Usually they are contained to questions because down voting answers costs rep. I don't care about rep much, and Q score is not important, but down votes on answers should be down votes on content and not just random revenge. In high traffic tags they might not matter as much but in some others they might.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 7:43
  • 62
    I certainly hesitate to downvote sometimes because I don't like the -1 messing up my reputation being divisible by 5, 10, or 100. So yes, point 2 please.
    – cs95
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:22
  • 83
    @cs95 Alternative solution: make downvotes cost -5. (I'll wait while you prepare the tar and feathers.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:30
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    Before something similar to the proposal is implemented, I believe, we also need to analyze how frequently the downvotes are being misused (e.g. personal attacks, revenge, racial bias, etc). Naturally, I agree with @DalijaPrasnikar. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:08
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    @CodyGray I would not mind if down vote would cost -5, on the other hand I was down voting really bad answers when my reputation was around 200. At that time -5 would have significant impact even though I was earning rep rather fast.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 14:22
  • 6
    -1 points for downvoting is poorly justified. I understand the reasoning, but this sweeping policy is not the answer. Sure, for competing answers on the same question, we can keep this. "Revenge downvotes" can be mitigated by forcing people to leave a comment when they downvote someone. Or we can give users a choice, do you want -1 point or do you want to leave a comment explaining the downvote? Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 15:39
  • 33
    I'll admit: I've not downvoted bad answers that I didn't expect would be deleted afterward. Is it lazy? Sure, I'm not proud of it, but I've only got 7k rep. Many of the people who suggest that this is lazy are well over the maximum privileges, and often have large amounts of rep from older posts that have accumulated it over time. I get more rep here and there, but if I downvoted every bad, lazy answer I saw, I would probably have a lot less. There are many ways to participate in this community. Downvoting bad answers is one I've chosen not to use heavily, because I'm penalized for doing so.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 2:38
  • 10
    @FabianRöling Don't down vote answers just because they are outdated. If the answer no longer applies then leave comment under the answer, notify OP to add warning or edit the answer yourself. Note - edit answers only if it is not obvious from the question/answer that answer is no longer valid for since certain version.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 8:25
  • 8
    The minus one rep cost is a big deal, I typically only down vote something when it's actively wrong and is the most upvoted answer or is the accepted answer. in the case of the accepted answer I check to see how long it's been since it was accepted just in case the user might return to except another answer but if the answer looks old enough that they could have switched it by then I give it the down vote. as you can see though those are pretty stringent requirements for me to use my points that way.
    – Max Young
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 21:06
  • 12
    I almost never downvote. That is simply and exclusively because of the -1 rep. I feel like I get punished for downvoting and thus only do it if the answer/question is absolutely atrocious. I have 135 up and 3 down. I would have cast a lot more downvotes on subpar content if it wasn't for that -1. It has taken me almost 10 years to get my 784 reputation. I have awarded a bounty and I feel better about loosing rep that way than casting downvotes. -1 is way too much - I would easily have cast 100 downvotes, but I would rather spend that rep on bounties - so I refrain.
    – Heki
    Commented Jun 30, 2020 at 7:25
307

Maybe give more rewards to downvotes so people will have more reason to downvote. We all know that a lot of users are performing many actions simply to receive badges and rewards (editing, reviewing, etc). This can probably encourage them to do such action more frequently.

I don't have clear ideas, but I would see a few badges like:

  • Earn XXX if you downvote 100 posts that are later deleted.
  • Earn YYY if you downvote 1000 posts that are later deleted.
  • Use at least 20 downvotes in a single day to earn ZZZ
  • etc.

A whole set of badges to encourage users to use their downvotes and I am pretty sure a lot of them will do. They won't get bothered by the -1 if at the end there is badge. Like someone who spent 50 reputation for a bounty to earn the related badge.


Since a downvoted answer is a signal that it can be bad, not accurate, low quality, etc., why not push all new negative answers to a queue where we can review them. Again I don't have a clear idea about how it should work but I imagine something like this:

  • A new answer is posted
  • One downvote is made within the next 12h1 (a signal for a potential bad content)
  • The answer is pushed inside a queue so it has more visibility for other user to judge it (either to downvote it, downvote and delete it, or choose "looks good")

It would work almost the same as the "low quality posts".

When I flag an answer as low quality, it has a good chance to get deleted (because it will be reviewed), but when downvoting an answer, it will not necessarily gather more downvotes, because I will not send a signal to anyone. Of course, it doesn't necessarily need to be downvoted more, but at least to bring more eyes to it.

Currently we have:

Me: Oh, a bad answer, downvote and move on.

Others: ...

It would be good to have:

Me: Oh, a bad answer, downvote and move on.

Others: someone made a downvote, let me have a look.

One among the others: He's right, this answer is bad, another downvote.

1Of course, we don't do this for all the downvoted answers but only the new ones so they are judged quickly. An old answer may gather a downvote, because it's outdated or no longer works and we don't need to bring more attention to it.


I will suggest one last idea: maybe downvotes can give us reputation. If I downvote an answer, I will get -1, but if the answer is later deleted why not getting +2 (cancelling the -1 and rewarding me with +1 overall). After all, my downvote led to the deletion of bad content, so it's like I made a good contribution to the site.

I know there is room for a lot of abuse, but we can add some restriction like applying this logic to only users under 5k or limit the earning of the extra +1 to only +X per day, etc.

With this, new users will no more be afraid of the -1 and will be more clever to target very bad answers since there is a good chance for a deletion and another +1.

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    Your last idea is very innovative. And I think it will keep users from downvoting good content just because they want the badge, when they have better options.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:30
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    @Scratte even in the badges I tried to bring the deleted factor to avoid blind downvotes and correctly grap the answer that really need to be downvoted. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:40
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    Definitely more thoughtful than my answer. Putting downvoted answers into a queue is a good idea, but what would the reputation to use it be? Rewarding points for having downvoted posts deleted, is a great idea in one aspect, as in rewarding users for the contribution, but on the other hand, the consequences of abusing this, is potentially worse than abusing upvotes. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 22:54
  • 5
    As you read in my answer: I generally don’t downvote answers; that’s because only a few of them get deleted. If more got deleted, I’d of course be more willing to downvote them. Putting them in a queue should be an effective means of making sure they do get deleted, however, we’d also need people to monitor that queue, and we’ve lost many contributors lately. I myself ceased activity for a few months. If things get worse again (we’re not far from that), I’m out, and so are others too. Then that’s even fewer to monitor the queue, but, of course, it would also mean fewer downvoters. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 23:04
  • 3
    @Andreas I don't think abusing this can be worse than with upvote especially that the amount is very small so you need a lot of effort to earn reputation if you aim to fraud. It's more a solution to say to users don't worry about the -1, you will get it back with another +1 if you downvote bad answers. At then end it's a simple idea I had. It can be improved or we can infer better ones from it. TL;DR from my answer is that we need to reward downvote actions to encourage them. + we consider the queue for more monitoring Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 23:12
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    I have to disagree with "They won't get bothered by the -1 if at the end there is badge.", I think for most lower rep users, rep is far more valuable than badges, even if it's only a single point. Though your final idea would definitely help counter that.
    – DBS
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 11:06
  • 3
    Regarding "earning badge (and/or rep) by downvoting N posts that are later deleted", while I can sympathize, I'm more worried of the bandwagon effect (and possibly <s>witch</s>badge-hunting) resulting in an honest NAA getting downvoted to -6 or lower... (personally, I find it too much?)
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 11:28
  • 23
    Actually we have: Me: Oh, a bad answer, downvote and move one. Others: someone made a downvote, let me be nice and give an upvote. One among the others: He's right and kind, another upvote.
    – ASh
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 15:07
  • 3
    In my opinion your suggestion will only harm the site and encourage people to go on a downvoting spree just to get cheap rep and badges. If we really need to encourage people to downvote bad answers then remove the -1 penalty for new users until they reach X rep at which point you can reintroduce the -1 as people generally don't care about that anymore. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 22:22
  • 3
    wait, downvoted answers should be deleted? Why not just keeping it and everybody knows that they are bad?
    – Ooker
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:19
  • 4
    @Ooker not all downvoted answers should be deleted but only the ones that are irrelevant, very bad, doesn't answer the question, etc should be deleted. bad answer or bad solution can be kept unless the OP decide to delete them Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:23
  • 5
    I think you have some good ideas here, but I occasionally need to downvote highly upvoted wrong answers and I don't expect those to ever get deleted (unfortunately). Also as a low rep user that tries to answer / clean up old stuff there really is a cost (not just an imaginary one) to downvoting. I try and follow up with answerers and give them a chance to correct the content instead of drive by downvoting, I think that helps both parties a lot.
    – jrh
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:52
  • 3
    There is no real confirmation that we need to improve the downvote to upvote ratio. Why should we? All it relates to is the fact that more useful content is posted to the site than non useful content. Altering that ratio by introducing weights (as this answer shows and others suggest) doesn't really add anything to the site. If an answer should be deleted because it is legitimately not an answer (not often statistically) then users should cast an actual delete vote on it. If users need more reputation to cast votes, then perhaps they can contribute more content or cast a flag.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 19:14
  • 2
    The issue with putting downvoted posts into queues might be a feedback loop. I already encountered the issue many times that I voted to close a question, the asker or someone else cleared up a misunderstanding I had, so I removed the close vote, but someone else had added another in the meantime, so it stays in the queue pretty much until it's closed for no reason. I have to keep watching the close vote number going up over days, just to wait until it's closed, then vote to reopen again, which again takes days to weeks. (This is on gamingSE BTW.) This shouldn't happen with downvotes as well. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:24
  • 4
    @Steve no we should not reverse the downvote or punish the downvoter. After all anyone is free to downvote for any reason. The queue will simply bring more eyes and will be helpful especially for very bad answers that anyone will agree it deserves a downvote. Of course, if a good answer is downvoted and will appear in the queue it may also gather more upvotes since it's a good one and will counter the downvote that can be a revenge one. Commented Jun 26, 2020 at 8:51
216

While this answer touches on a similar subject to other answers, I decided to post it because it comes at the issue from a different perspective.

I come from a videogame design background. Your site, though hardly a "game" definitely falls into the "gamification" category to the extent that it is using reputation, badges, and level-ups that unlock new privileges. And there are some really really really well known things about how gamification works and how it creates incentives (and disincentives) for behavior. And near the top of that list is the compulsion to raise one's "gamer score", no matter how theoretically "meaningless" that number is. Part of that compulsion has to do with the social nature of the number -- user knows that others will see the score. And part of the compulsion has to do with the power of the names you give things -- in this case it's called reputation. So no matter how jaded many experienced users feel over the supposed meaningless of reputation, it's really important to remember that the mere names of things have been shown to meaningfully affect user behavior.

So that brings us to downvoting and the -1 reputation cost for doing so. To me as a professional game designer, my first reaction was "I can't believe they actually have to ask the question of why they don't get 'enough' downvotes!" Because of course if you lower my score for doing so I'm not going to want to do it! You're telling me I'm doing an unwanted thing! And then quadruply so by having the thing you penalize being called my "reputation" -- now you're literally telling me I'm being a bad person! Some, of course, will feel immune to the power of the words, and some will have already accumulated so much "gamer score" that they feel free to go spend some -- but I've seen right in the comments of some of these answers that even many folks who have huge scores still "feel that niggling pain" about the supposedly-nearly-meaningless -1 rep.

So this is kind of a "Well here's your problem, Maam" situation. Obviously the -1 rep got introduced for some reason, or seemingly to solve some problem, in the past. And maybe it solves it. And maybe the problem it solves is worse than the fact that there aren't enough downvotes for curation. But anyway that's what the problem is, and it isn't likely to go away while downvotes feel penalized rather than rewarded.

The way we would (try to) handle an intractable problem like that in a videogame would be:

  • First, remove the problem feature: so in this case eliminate the -1 rep for downvote.
  • Now, try to rebalance using "other means" to prevent the problem that -1 rep used to solve. Some combination of: ... perhaps a higher threshold for earning downvote privilege ... perhaps make downvotes less visible to create less social stigma (what if the lowest score a question visibly had was 0, at least until you reached some higher privilege level to be allowed to see downvotes) ... lower the amount of social stigma by lowering (or removing) the amount of penalty that users receive for getting downvoted, especially newer users. (I'm a lot nearer to being a new user than some here, and I can tell you that any time I've put an answer or a question and it got downvoted it, I've instantly deleted it -- don't want the rep hit, keeps me from getting the next privilege, etc.) ... If removing -1 rep leads to a massive increase in downvotes, then perhaps change the "net value" of downvotes to bring them in line, e.g. a downvote has half the value of an upvote on the overall score.

So just some thoughts from a game design perspective, and I hope they help some.

Edit: Another brainstormy idea that occurred to me after reading some of your comments (e.g. gold sink), is that if you thought this was important enough for a substantial change, then here's another "classic game design route" you could go down: INTRODUCE A NEW CURRENCY.

  • Let's say that in addition to "reputation" I also earn "social capital".
  • How do I earn it? Easiest prototype is I earn a point every time my reputation reaches a new high (so essentially 1 point of capital earned for every point of reputation, but no double-earning by going down-and-back up). If you wanted to get all designy-a-new-systemy you could have the social capital come in different size clumps when you tier up, etc, but that might require an overkill amount of extra attention.
  • So now social capital becomes the thing I spend to do things -- to downvote, and probably to set bounties as well, and perhaps there are other "consumable" activities.
  • VERY important is that "social capital" is NOT visible to other users. Where as reputation is my "experience level", social capital is now my "gold" -- my toys to play with.
  • This accomplishes a couple of important psychological things: (a) It destigmatizes spending (I'm no longer losing REPUTATION), (b) By hiding the social capital values it removes any social reason for hoarding the points -- nobody is impressed by how many points I have because they can't see them, and (c) Conversely and equally importantly, I now have a psychological incentive to spend this -- because otherwise it's just sitting there doing nothing! Not potentially impressing anybody, just nothing!

Obviously that's a somewhat significant amount of rework of your "game economy", but it does aim straight at the stated problem so I thought I'd share it.

The irony that this will apparently be the most widely-read answer that I ever give on Stack Overflow is not lost on me :-) But hey, I'm just barely an engineer but I'm extra very much a game designer so what the heck.

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    While I don't agree with all of this, it does bring a fresh perspective. To the best of my knowledge, the 1-rep cost still exists in order to prevent tactical voting. A higher threshold for the privilege is something that could bring more issues: why should the downvote be so exclusive?
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 20:03
  • 20
    I similarly appreciate the sentiment like E_net4 but I am also not sure about some of these. The downvote privilege is already higher. This actually causes problems. If people have association bonus (+100 rep on all sites), they get the ability to upvote everywhere but not downvote. This leads to positive feedback loops when visiting the Hot Network Questions: people visit and they can only upvote questions (or do nothing). So popular questions gain even more popularity even though they might be a bad for the site they are on. Happens fairly often.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 21:36
  • 7
    Your last point - limiting displayed negative nett post scores to 0 (or was it -1?) - was actually tried a few months ago. It was very unpopular, as it was perceived to 'hide' the Community's judgement on poor posts. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 2:22
  • 2
    The -1 cost is surely something that people consider, especially if they have a low rep number. But for everyone above say 5k, the cost is so small that I think it should realistically not play any role at all. I upvoted this post mostly because of the general insight into the motivational value of naming things. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:03
  • 25
    @Trilarion I still consider the -1. I have 14k rep. I think twice before downvoting any answer to be sure I think it's worth the -1.
    – Almo
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 18:09
  • 20
    @Trilarion: "should realistically not play any role at all." And this is the disconnect: people have this annoying habit of acting like… well, humans. Messy, squishy, organic, fallible wetware that is exceptionally prone to both acting and reacting based on a combination of both emotion and rational thought with a highly variable balance, even with the same individual, depending on a wide (and wild) variety of factors. StackOverflow's largest collective sin is, in fact, not expecting humans to act like humans. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 18:16
  • 16
    I can confirm that the -1 reputation deters me from downvoting, because I have ~1750 reputation and I want to reach the 2k privileges, but I don't gain reputation that fast.
    – riQQ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 11:38
  • 2
    @Trilarion - Literally the sole reason that I don't downvote more is the -1 rep. I want 10K and I'm not going to reach that if I downvote every bad question or answer that I see. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 19:21
  • 3
    @Trilarion - I know that, and I'm not sure why I typed "question or" at all, nor do I know why Stack Overflow doesn't let you edit comments after a certain amount of time, but my point still stands. The -1 is literally the only thing standing in the way of me downvoting everything that deserves it. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:04
  • 1
    @SomethingDark I could say that this Q&A here probably aims more at bad questions than bad answers or that there is still a daily vote limit that would limit you or that even with some downvoting bad answers activity you would still achieve 10krep for sure (a bit later maybe), but instead let me say that I see your point. For you the -1 is real, for me it never really was an issue. It's a compromise between different goals and not a really bad one, but it definitely also has downsides. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 7:20
  • 7
    I would give Brian’s answer +10 if I could. Possibly +100. He suggests how to fix downvoting, explains WHY, and provides a framework (gaming) in which to understand the suggestions. Although I’d like to see @Brian provide a few references, he’s done more than just suggest removing the reputation hit.
    – Rethunk
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 20:53
  • 3
    @Trilarion Fair enough, I'll try to clarify. First, an infamous but highly relevant movie quote: "A person is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it." More particular to this situation: your statement about "should" is perfectly true for a rational actor. However, humans are, on the balance, not rational actors in any general sense. Specific people, under specific circumstances, certainly are. The "sin" I was speaking of is expecting people to act like idealized rational actors, rather than… well, people. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 0:45
  • 4
    Closely related but slightly more pointed would be "Designing for Evil": blog.codinghorror.com/designing-for-evil. In fairness, it is mostly the SO developers who have to worry about actual evil, but the community, if it is bouncing ideas around, should definitely be taking the range of human proclivities into account. Which is, admittedly, hard. Evidence to date would certainly tend to indicate that if there is a "magic bullet", nobody has found it yet. But the point @Brian was making is that the current failure modes are entirely predictable as a natural result of gamification. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 0:51
  • 1
    @JoelAelwyn Yes, definitely it's an argument. And while we are at it, we could even start paying people for downvoting with rep. That would surely encourage people even more. But if we assume that users are sometimes evil, we then also have to take into account revenge downvotes. Basically saying that not all downvotes are good downvotes and that maximizing only the right kind of downvotes should be the aim. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 7:38
  • 5
    "no matter how theoretically "meaningless" that number is." Stackoverflow reputation isn't meaningless, it has real world implications in terms of employment.
    – Roko Mijic
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 16:29
89

There is an anecdote that, when Michelangelo was asked about how he made the statue of David, he responded

"It is easy. You just chip away the stone that doesn't look like David."

When there are 1000 new questions posted per day (in watched tags), then there may be 10 that are actually worth reading and investing time (and upvoting, for that matter). 90 of them may be these "Mehh... dunno..." questions (with no votes). And the remaining 900 are objectively, utterly crappy (often do-my-homework ones), or plain, obvious duplicates.

The latter should be downvoted and closed. Now I could waste 8 hours per day with just reading crap and downvoting.

But why should I do this?

The obvious answer should be: "In order to create the best, curated programming Q/A in the world!". Yeah. But... no. Seriously. There's another cultural reference that might fit here, quoting the summary of Der Zauberlehrling from Wikipedia:

The poem begins as an old sorcerer departs his workshop, leaving his apprentice with chores to perform. Tired of fetching water by pail, the apprentice enchants a broom to do the work for him, using magic in which he is not fully trained. The floor is soon awash with water, and the apprentice realizes that he cannot stop the broom because he does not know the magic required to do so.

The apprentice splits the broom in two with an axe, but each of the pieces becomes a whole broom that takes up a pail and continues fetching water, now at twice the speed. At this increased pace, the entire room quickly begins to flood. When all seems lost, the old sorcerer returns and quickly breaks the spell. The poem concludes with the old sorcerer's statement that only a master should invoke powerful spirits.

Stack Exchange called the brooms that bring the flood. Namely users that bring questions - bad questions, and too many of them. They told us to be "nice" and "welcoming", splitting the brooms in half: Users see that homework questions are solved, and the askers (and of course, those who write poor answers to poor questions) are rewarded, attracting even more of them.

For me, the answer to the question of "What can we do to encourage downvoting?" is pretty simple:

Do what is necessary in order to reduce the number of cases where a downvote is necessary!


An aside: At least for me (personally), the "-1 rep" that is incurred by a downvote is not relevant. Not at all. I'd be happy to donate even 10000 reputation points to anybody who is stoic and diligent enough to dig through a pile of 1000 crap Q/As, just to downvote them accordingly.

The discussion about how this problem could be solved is probably beyond the scope of this Q/A, because most attempts for solving this would be the exact opposite of what SE has been doing in the past few years.

Unfortunately, there is no old sorcerer to help us out with that.

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  • 16
    My observation is the same for the tags I watch. The volume of garbage is truly overwhelming. Downvoting is not going to work. Nothing except drastic measures will have any effect. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 1:19
  • 2
    What about filtering the garbage away? Everything that doesn't end up with a score of at least +2 could automatically get deleted after a month or so. The difficulty would then be reversed in finding the content that should actually stay (and that still might be a difficult task with all that garbage floating around). Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:57
  • 2
    @Trilarion But that doesn't change anything about the amount of low quality content in active question lists and queues. Cleaning up a month later does not make it any easier to find good quality content today. Because the amount of low quality material flowing in remains unchanged.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:09
  • 4
    @Trilarion A low-traffic post is not automatically garbage. That's why Roomba is selective with score in it's metrics. A post has to be bad, not in-lack.of-good or meh.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:19
  • @Gimby and Scrattle: Sure, the threshold for high quality content is also tag dependent. The only thing I wanted to say is that auto hiding/deleting everything except for the good things is a bit different from trying to delete/close all the bad things. Currently we are trying to better identify the garbage, but what we really interested in is not the garbage but the pearls. I'm most interested in the pearls, in the garbage only insofar as I need it identified as such. Maybe it's the same really ... not sure. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:52
  • 2
    @Trilarion I previously suggested that posts from new users are default pending when submitted and only go public when released from the queues where the posts are already in. I found it only natural since all posts in First Posts are from new users, and they seem to be the ones that are in most need of improvement. But.. I don't think it gained a lot of support.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:03
  • @Scratte It could be that Meta is not completely consistent, sometimes rejecting things that it would approve at other times. It could even be that the reception depends on details of the proposal. Or it could be that the likely reaction of the company is included in the feedback. If its chances are deemed hopeless, the support could be smaller. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:12
  • 2
    @Trilarion and Scaratte : That's exactly what the anecdote of Michelangelo referred to: We cannot identify and carve out the good questions by downvoting the bad ones, because there there are too many of the latter. Or to stick with this analogy: That's like carving the statue of David out of Ayers Rock. (Another aspect, unrelated to that, is that for each individually, it's often hard to identify good questions, but easy to identify bad ones, but that's something that cannot be adequately unfolded here in the comments...)
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:01
  • @Scratte The approach that you described sounds interesting. Very roughly: Put all posts from <1k users into queues. These queues would have to (somehow) be organized by tags (a COBOL expert cannot judge the quality of a JavaScript Q/A). These queues could be worked off by users who have silver/gold badges in the respective tags. This would be a "dispatching" mechanism, analogous to "peer reviews" of publications that are (supposed to...) ensure the quality of scientific works. (For me, this sounds very promising - I'll have to look whether this has been proposed/discussed here already...)
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:08
  • 1
    (@Scratte Found an entry point meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/380450/… (with many links to related ones). There are some shortcomings, and some of them are pretty old - I'm considering to take the risk and bring this up again, in a similar (more elaborate) form, but would have to read some of the answers in the related/linked Q/As first...)
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:17
  • 2
    @Marco13 I think you will have to lower the reputation level to under 50 :) So just work with the current First Posts queue, because there too many new Questions, and not enough reviewers :) Maybe also keep in mind that even if you gain support, there is still a long way to make Stack implement it.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:19
  • @Scratte We have "Low Quality", "Triage", and "First Posts" queues, and there's considerable overlap between these. I'd even say that, to a large extent, they are basically the same. We could add a "Short Posts"-queue, a "Mainly-Code-Posts"-queue, a "Probably-Homework"-queue... just to distract from the fact that the influx of crap is just too darn high. Refactoring the queues and the underlying mechanisms and goals is overdue. I know, it won't happen - that's one of the many reasons of why I'm no longer contributing to the main sites - but we could pretend to still have hope for SE.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 16:41
  • 1
    @Trilarion - good point, but, many times when I face a problem and Google the error message, etc. I find an answer that is perfect, and solved my problem, but has a score of 0 (until I upvote it!). Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 19:24
  • 1
    @MarkStewart Yes, it's all about differentiating good from bad content. There are millions of questions with score zero. We should work on bringing them to either +1 or -1. But we may not have the manpower. Just encouraging downvoting isn't exactly the goal. A question at -3 is already dead and does not need other downvotes, while some questions also deserve upvotes. The discussion here is a bit limited in that regard. Everyone should just start looking at zero scored questions and vote on them. That would be a very helpful thing. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:00
  • 9
    @baao Quoting from stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand : The fastest way to kill any Q&A; site is to flood it with low-quality questions. (Assuming that there was some irony and sarcasm in your comment: Whose fault is it then? The veterans? The newbies? Or does it have something to do with a wrong strategy, wrong priorities and wrong decisions?)
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 13:34
85

I'd like to see downvotes make a more serious difference to OP. I still don't understand how a downvote only counts as -2 reputation where an upvote is +10. I've seen numerous bad questions/answers with more downvotes than upvotes but OP has almost no incentive to remove them because they are still gaining reputation (1 upvote plus 4 downvotes is still +2!). I say almost though as having more downvotes than upvotes does put you further away from a tag badge. I believe changing the downvote penalty to match the upvote reward would result in a lot more self-deletion of bad questions/answers.

I'd also like to see a delete review queue so that questions and answers that hit a certain number of net downvotes are automatically reviewed for deletion in the same way that answers flagged "very low quality" or "not an answer" are. This would hopefully improve the rate at which bad questions/answers get removed from the site and at the same time make it less likely that the -1 penalty for downvoting will be permanently deducted from the downvoters reputation.

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    I totally agree with matching downvote/upvote cost for answer will be helpful. Or even making downvote change more than upvote. Like +10 / -20. But in case of questions - wouldn't it make people afraid of asking. There are quite many cases when a good question is downvoted, and only upvoted after it has a good answer from a person who really understood the question (there are even badges to reward such answers). Maybe downvote on question should still have smaller impact, like +10 / -5. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 4:48
  • 4
    @AlexGuteniev I'm torn on that. I understand your point but I see downvotes on questions as a good way to make posters think more before/while they write a question. And as long as the question eventually has more upvotes than down, the poster will get positive rep from it.
    – Nick
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 4:51
  • 27
    @Nick I'm not sure this is a good idea. I've removed my one Question. I've been told it was a good Question. It had +4/-2 when I removed it. It got the downvotes long after I posted it and they seemed to come at the same time as another spurious vote. I removed it because I don't want to risk a Question ban. Making people more afraid of posting is probably not going to help. I'm less fuzzy about my Answers, because I have a lot more of them. But if I'll get a -1 (-10 reputation point) just because someone doesn't like my avatar or lost his keys, then I'll be less likely to Answer too.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:22
  • 3
    @Scratte Unfortunately there's not a lot that can be done about capricious downvoting, especially of questions, given that there is no penalty for that. I had all 3 of my questions downvoted within a minute of downvoting someone else's answer. Instituting a penalty for downvoting questions might help that, but I would only want to see that happen if there was a better way (e.g. a delete review queue) to ensure that bad questions end up deleted so that people who downvote bad questions don't get penalised for it in the long run.
    – Nick
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:50
  • 31
    Another point: Some people are reluctant to downvote, because they don't want to hurt other users. I don't think it'll make people downvote more, if they feel they're applying more "hurt". The goal is not to bring down reputation, but to put a better score on the post.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:58
  • 11
    This answer in another feature request is very relevant and serves as a counterargument to increasing the penalty for receiving a downvote. If downvotes apply such a large penalty, they will no longer be just about rating posts. Reputation harming is a relevant factor that many users complain about.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:55
  • 5
    @Nick We'll have to agree to disagree here, because such a powerful downvote, although we can argue its usefulness, is also very problematic and does not help on encouraging them. It disincentivises answers, increases the perception of harm, and even goes counter the concept of the lifeboat badge. At this time, I would rather be in favour of dropping the penalty to the receiving end.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:16
  • 3
    The missing comma made me read the above as "Scratte posters". I had no idea there were a category of posters named after me ;) But.. if you read the post linked by E_net4, this makes it real "weapons of war" against a user, seriously enable users that intentionally want to hurt others. Do we want to limit users that downvote to that group? Especially bearing in mind that those users are probably already downvoting for this exact reason. This Question is about encouraging more users to downvote, not penalize those that receive them.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:29
  • 1
    Yes, when you put the argument like that, it makes sense. But maybe the argument/idea should be revised. The "penalty" to you is to make you think about what you're downvoting, so you don't just go on a thoughtless spree. Especially when you're a new user and have a bigger percentage to lose, assuming that new users are less likely to make an accurate call. That penalty is completely unrelated to the penalty to the user of the post you're downvoting, and I don't think it's good to make the comparison. (If you want to compare, the extreem is: Why do I not get a +2 when I upvote?)
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:48
  • 1
    @Scratte that's why I'm happy to increase the penalty to downvote (as long as there's a delete review queue to help get rid of bad posts). It will make people think more about downvoting, help reduce intentional targeting, and if the posts are truly bad, there will be no long term penalty to downvoting (since you get the rep back when the post is deleted) meaning that it shouldn't discourage people from downvoting bad posts.
    – Nick
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:55
  • 2
    @Nick,"... I see downvotes on questions as a good way to make posters think more before/while they write a question." But that isn't what happens is it? Sure it might chase away some bad questions/answer, but it chases everybody else away from contributing as well. What downvotes does now is make people afraid of asking/answering questions, not more careful at it. And you will always have a majority of new users swarming around who just don't care. They don't get their answer here (it's quickly downvoted/deleted irregards of quality), they'll just go somewhere else or just go without.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 17:17
  • 3
    @AlexGuteniev Most users have a reputation of 1, truer for some tags than others. Users with low rep don't sufferfrom a severe downvote penalty. I take notice on the Arduino tags. Most Arduino questions deserve a downvote/close vote because of the abysmal average quality of questions under this tag. Many OPs there have never cracked the Arduino source code open or done a google search... or just 'wants the codez". But I do agree that the downvote -2 vs the upvote +10 is a horrible disparity because -4/+1 is still positive gain for what is probably a pretty crappy question.
    – TomServo
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 18:14
  • 1
    @ouflak There's no real reason to let the possibility of downvotes prevent anyone from answering. If posters are careful to answer questions that they really know the answer to (rather than just throw out code with a "Try this!"), the likelihood of the answer being downvoted is small and if the answer is well written, it is far more likely to get upvoted.
    – Nick
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 1:29
  • 1
    I'm not sure. Maybe it would be fairer if the split is -5/+10. But I do like that a post needs many downvotes (indicating it's truly bad and not "maybe bad") before the downvotes start to really impact the author. If we're talking about downvote/upvote trickles where a single upvote can really make an impact then the system simply still needs to do its work more. If not enough votes will be cast to set the record straight... yeah well that's the actual problem then, the reputation impact is just a side effect.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:15
  • 1
    I doubt that the suggestions in this answer will help to encourage users to downvote more. However, this is one of the few suggestions that I would highly approve. I find it very difficult to make sense of the -2/+10 system: it should be -10/+10. Also, surely, posts with a negative score should be reviewed (this would help to eliminate the possibility of the misuse of the voting feature and, also, remove bad posts for good). I would like to see the suggestions that are made in this answer to be converted to an explicit feature request. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 23:50
51

When you vote on mostly answers, you get a pop up message saying "You haven't voted on questions in a while, questions need votes too". This was introduced in response to a problem of questions not being voted on.

The exact same logic that lead to that pop up being introduced seems to apply to downvotes, implying that it might make sense to add a "you haven't downvoted in a while, low quality content needs to be downvoted too" pop-up.

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    Do we have any reason to believe that such nag tooltips actually work to modify behavior, or are they just annoying to everyone?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:25
  • 19
    I often get these tips on the WorldBuilding site and indeed, they made me to pay more attention to the questions, since they are in fact are what is responsible for so many great answers I upvote there!
    – Kromster
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 5:07
  • 5
    @CodyGray Do you have any reason to believe any suggestions here actually work?
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 14:39
  • 3
    @BartoszKP They work for me....
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 20:13
  • @CodyGray I can admit that I've blocked all of these nag tooltips in my adblocker (along with "if this answer helped you please upvote the questions and answers"), so they definitely don't work on me
    – retnikt
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 13:42
  • @CodyGray: My anecdote doesn’t answer your request for evidence, but I’ll note that the pop up has been effective at reminding me to upvote more questions, at least. I’m still at a large deficit, but it’s something I’m more mindful of each time I get that pop-up. Otherwise, I often find myself forgetting to upvote questions unless a) I have the question too, b) it doesn’t yet have a (useful) answer, but c) it’s well-framed to solicit useful answers. That’s a tall order. With the prompt, I’m more likely to reward thoughtful and interesting questions, or to upvote answered questions. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:42
  • fwiw: I'd rather not see a pop-up to remind me to vote for a question. If I upvote an answer, then in my opinion the question should automatically get an upvote from me. Likewise, I think flags and downvotes should be correlated. If I downvote, I should, at a minimum, also have to either select a generic category (spam, doesn't answer the question, etc) or leave a comment. Similarly, if I flag an answer, it should count as a downvote.
    – MetaSean
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 18:18
  • 1
    Every time I open up my PHPStorm there is a Hint of the Day popup. It's super easy to close/ignore, but honestly there are times when I read it and then opt to see the next one, and the next one, and the next one before starting my work day. If we can deliver a spoonful of advice/grooming that benefits the whole community, this might be an effective/painless way to do it. The challenge may be getting everyone to agree on what should be said in the popups and how to condense the advice in 3 sentences or less. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 13:30
  • 2
    The 'nag' tooltip did work to modify my behavior. When I got the tooltip 'questions need upvotes too' it made complete sense, but I hadn't really thought about it prior. Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 7:04
  • This would be a great feature to see and would be fairly trivial to implement. The nagging reminder does a good job; if nothing else, it at least encourages me to find a post to downvote so that I stop seeing the nag.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 14:31
49

I don't downvote as often as I probably should. One of the major reasons is a situation that happened back when I was a fairly low-rep user (I'm sure I'm not the only one this has happened to). Rough timeline of events:

  1. I saw an interesting question and provided an answer.
  2. My answer quickly earned a negative score. Several commenters mentioned my answer was unclear and potentially misleading.
  3. I re-read my answer with a fresh mind and discovered that it was indeed quite confusing.
  4. I edited the answer to resolve the problems and improve overall quality.
  5. The downvotes remained even though the problems that inspired them were gone.

This changed the way that I looked at downvotes. Downvotes are only a judgement of the quality of an something at a specific moment in time. Downvoters have the ability to retract their downvotes if the question/answer changes, but this doesn't appear to be something that's actually done very often (I'd love to see real stats on this). I usually comment instead of downvoting if it feels like there's any chance that the question/answer might get improved to resolve the problems. I don't want to be a drive-by downvoter. I usually only downvote if something is clearly unsalvageable or in violation of the rules.

IMO, it would be useful if downvoters get some sort of notification when something they downvote gets edited. I'd be more than happy to retract a downvote when a question/answer is substantially improved. I have no reasonable way to know when this happens, though. A simple note that I could click to re-visit a question/answer and re-evaluate it would make me 100x more likely to retract downvotes that no longer apply (bonus points if the link takes you to a diff-type view that highlights the changes). This would reduce the likelihood of drive-by downvoting and would make people - or me, at least - less hesitant to downvote.

If downvotes are important enough to notify the poster, then I feel like an improvement to a downvoted item is important enough to notify the voter.

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    "IMO, it would be useful if downvoters get some sort of notification when something they download gets edited" there is an opt-in option for this if you follow the post. You'll get notifications for changes to the post. But also some noise in terms of comments and, if you follow a question, new answers as well.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:40
  • 4
    yeah, basically the follow feature is a middleground for this kind of notification. Forcing everyone who downvotes to receive edit notifications would be quite heavy-handed, allowing people to opt in to receiving notifications is much less intrusive.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:41
  • "If downvotes are important enough to notify the poster" downvotes are barely forwarded to the recepient. You can sort of guess when you've been downvoted but not with high accuracy and not in timely manner. If you get a downvote and an upvote, you'll get a +8 notification for rep, because it's a +10 but then it factors the -2. You don't get notifications for negative rep. If you look at your notification score, negative rep is also usually tucked away and you only see the positive. Unless you've only been downvoted, you might have a -2 then.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:42
  • 4
    @VLAZ - In my experiences, the signal/noise ratio is way too low when following posts. I also wouldn't want every post I've downvoted cluttering the "Following" tab in my profile, burying the useful content I'm following. It would be more user-friendly to be a separate mechanism. Regarding downvote notifications, it's much easier to detect downvotes if you have the "view up/down votes" privilege, sometime I forget not everyone has that.
    – bta
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:49
  • 2
    @bta from my experience...you probably shouldn't worry about downvoted posts swarming you with notifications. Although, I would like to be able to select the type of notifications I get for a post. For example, I often don't care about new comments being posted. I may follow a question solely for the answers, for example.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:53
  • Oh, I forgot one "fun" interaction with negative rep and notifications. If you get, say, a -12 rep (e.g., removed upvote, added a downvote) you won't get any notification. If you then get an upvote, also wouldn't get a notification, since you're at -2 net change now. So, you need to gain enough rep to overcome the negative and go into a positive net score before you get any notifications. So, for example, if two of your answers get unaccepted, that's -30 total, and you'd need at least three upvotes + another rep gain to get a bubble. Only opening the inbox shows a bit more information.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:02
  • 2
    If you decided to rework your answer you could simply remove the old one and post a new one. After all it is a different answer. You can delete answers whenever you want. All we ask is that you do not delete an answer and repost the same content to avoid downvotes. That is an abuse and can be flagged for mods attention.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:25
  • 4
    @KevinB: A possibly useful heuristic to maybe notify only when they might want to retract a downvote: notify after edits and subsequent upvotes from other users. Possibly to some threshold like non-negative, or more likely just one or two upvotes after an edit. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:41
  • @Dharman - That only works if the answer is completely different, not if it's a modified version of the original (which I'd argue is more often the case). Also, you'd lose any upvotes the original one might have had.
    – bta
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 2:25
  • @PeterCordes - That's a pretty good idea. IIRC, we used to have a badge for editing a low score answer/question and then it receiving enough upvotes. That implies the plumbing is (was?) there, it would just mean notifying the downvoters as well.
    – bta
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 2:40
  • 1
    Completely agree with this, the whole fix the problem requires those who have down-voted to come back assess and re-vote but a lot of time they don't. I personally try to do this but if a specific tag receives a lot of questions it can get lost in the ether. A notification of changes plus a "bump" (although this could be mis-used) would go a long way.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 11:18
  • An opt-out for notification of changes after a downvote could be easier to manage. The way bookmarking works in Chrome is like this - one click sets the bookmark & also shows you a "remove" button in the same go, so its just one extra click. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 1:20
  • I shared similar sentiments here.
    – jxh
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 16:28
  • Here's an SQL query on data.stackexchange.com that returns how many answers are downvoted and edited but the downvotes are never retracted: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1255728/… Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 19:20
  • @GalaxyCat105 - I don't think that query will find posts that have downvotes but an overall score >= 0. It also doesn't differentiate between downvotes that were cast after the edits were made as opposed to before. I'm not sure that we can get this data with a SQL query alone.
    – bta
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 19:33
41

I've upvoted 5,897 times on SO and downvoted 88 times. I downvote when I think it makes sense and don't feel bad about it. I think the reason I upvote so much more than I downvote is that I rarely try my hand at moderating the site, going through new questions, or trying to answer questions for its own sake. Instead, I usually visit to look up the solution for a specific problem I have, and sometimes I browse interesting questions for the fun reading material. This means I mostly see a lot of the already-curated, already-high quality content on the site. And that deserves upvotes!

My guess is that there are a lot of users like me who use Stack Overflow in a way where changing the incentives won't cause us to downvote more often. And I'd guess there are users who love the moderation side of things who will mostly downvote, no matter what you do.

I'm absolutely not saying this isn't an important aspect of the community to think about. Neither am I saying trying to adjust the incentives surrounding downvoting is a hopeless endeavor. This is just a thought that popped into my head reading the question, and I thought I'd leave it for smarter and more experienced community members than myself to consider.

Overall, I'm grateful you're thinking about this and excited to see where it leads!

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  • 2
    When arriving from a search for a specific problem I can confirm that the content is usually well curated and upvote worthy. But you answered also a lot of questions. I wonder how you found them? Usually by looking at unanswered questions in my favorite tags in order to find something that I want to answer I see lots of really bad contributions that would deserve a downvote. Did you not? Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:09
  • 12
    The thing, though, is, that the reason you're seeing high quality, upvoted and upvote-worthy content is that others have previously down voted the low-quality stuff away from those posts. So whilst there may be many people using the site like you do, to keep them happy and able to use the site like that, voting is crucial to sift out the good from the bad.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:12
  • 5
    This post is part of the problem... 88 down-votes, no wonder there is so much garbage on the site.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:56
  • 5
    @Trilarion A lot of my answers are from times I couldn't find a good answer to a problem I was having. So when I found a solution on my own, I came back and left an answer on a relevant question. Sometimes I happen to see a question on the front page I can answer, but that doesn't happen particularly often.
    – Kevin
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 13:23
  • 4
    @Adriaan For sure. I get that the fact I can find so much good content is because other users are doing the hard work of moderating the site, and that includes downing garbage posts. I'm grateful for that. There's only all much time in the day, though, and I think my time is best spent doing other things. There are other things in my life that have even more value to me, not that moderating SO is a low-value proposition.
    – Kevin
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 13:26
  • 2
    "Sometimes I happen to see a question on the front page I can answer, but that doesn't happen particularly often." I guess what this question here asks is if you happen to look at the front page and you spot a question that is obviously bad, just consider using your downvote powers on it. It's (hopefully) not asking anyone to spend extra time that they do not want to spend, just to actively use that downvote button if you happen to see bad content while being on SO anyway. I guess that's something we all could do. If upvoting comes naturally, maybe downvoting could become so too. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:37
  • 2
    @Trilarion That's a good point. I'll glance at posts on the front page more often to upvote the good questions and downvote the bad ones, even if I don't have enough time to answer or edit.
    – Kevin
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:56
  • 7
    @Lankymart, "...the problem... (only) 88 down-votes, no wonder there is so much garbage on the site" That's not fair. The vast overwhelming number of people who visit, or even contribute to, this site will never take part in moderating in any meaningful way. Most won't even register. There are plenty of SE sites where moderation duties just aren't that much in demand (because of the culture, low-traffic, etc...). We shouldn't blame users for their lack of interest in moderating. It's rare that someone truly wants to do it, and from that group there are subsets who take part in different ways.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:35
  • @ouflak All excuses, giving a down vote when a question is clearly low quality or poorly researched doesn’t require moderation, just needs you to click on the down arrow occasionally. There is far more to moderation than that!
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:45
  • 1
    @Lankmart, Not excuses. Just simple demographics. People are different. That's life.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:50
  • 2
    @Lankymart As I wrote in my answer, I do downvote when I come across a post that warrants it. I just don't use Stack Overflow in a way that ends up with me seeing many of those posts.
    – Kevin
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:36
  • Basically I upvote when the code works, I dont need to understand it. Cant downvote when it doesnt work. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 5:08
  • 1
    @user3226167 and that is also representative of another problem; you switched your brain off, handed all responsibility for solving your problem over to a man on the internet, didn't understand the response and pasted the code straight into your app
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jun 27, 2020 at 6:48
  • 1
    @Trilarion I also think it's very cultural so I might totally be wrong because I'm drown in my own culture (like most of us). In France, negative feedback means you failed, so downvotes I think are often perceived as a failure and are therefore not an enjoyable experience. But I know that in some culture people are more used to negative feedback and take distance with it, which I think is a good thing, but I think it's impossible (or just very hard) to change how people will receive feedback. And in my opinion the way you receive it determines how you treat others.
    – cglacet
    Commented Jun 30, 2020 at 11:55
  • 1
    @Trilarion That would be interesting to poll people on that "What do you do when you receive a downvote?", "How do you feel when you receive a downvote?", "What is your down/up vote ratio?". I'm pretty sure there would be a very high correlation between how people feel and how they vote.
    – cglacet
    Commented Jun 30, 2020 at 12:00
34

The focus of most of what I am saying here is on the downvoting of answers but much of it is equally applicable to questions. With that said, I would also like to separate encouraging downvotes (as Dharman's title has it) from facilitating them; the importance of this distinction will hopefully become apparent as (or if) you continue read this post.

Let us separate downvotes into five six categories (one could merge some, or even add more):

  1. Revenge Downvotes: Horrible things! This category needs no explanation and most (if not all) of us will have experienced them. We don't want to encourage this.
  2. Spiteful Downvotes: Huey asks a good question. Louie posts a good answer, and it gets a few upvotes. A bit later, Dewey posts another good answer and it gets more upvotes than Louie's; so, in a fit of pique, Louie downvotes Dewey's answer, just to 'even up the scores'. We don't want to encourage this (and it is the normal reason given for downvotes on answers not being 'free').
  3. Constructive Downvotes: I have both received and cast a number of these, in circumstances where an answer is potentially good but has one or more readily correctible flaws. Such downvotes should, IMHO, never be anonymous and always be accompanied by a comment explaining the nature of the flaw and, better still, how to fix it. When the criticism has been duly addressed, the downvote should be removed (and even possibly replaced with an upvote). We do want to encourage this.
  4. Tactical Downvotes: We see an answer that needs to be deleted, so we flag it as NAA or VLQ (or, if we have 20K+ reputation, we vote to delete it). 'Throwing in' a downvote on top of that delete flag/vote can often expedite/facilitate Community-powered deletion; further, if the tactic works, then the reputation cost of the downvote will be refunded. Do we want to encourage this? Those of us who are active in site curation probably do, but there could be deeper issues here that Diamond Moderators and Staff may want to raise.
  5. Critical Downvotes: A subject matter expert (SME) comes across a well-presented, (highly) upvoted answer and, after some examination, discovers that the solution is fatally flawed. What should that SME do? I strongly believe that we do want to encourage downvoting in these cases, even if an alternative (better) answer is posted by that SME.
  6. (EDIT) Purgative/Curative Downvotes: [How did I initially 'forget' this category? It is the most important!] Answers that are just plain bad (but do not meet the criteria for NAA or VLQ flags), or those that are posted (especially by high-rep users who should know better) on unsalvageable poor questions: duplicates and typos, mostly. We most certainly do want to encourage these! This category is most likely the focus of Dharman's question (feel free to correct me, of course).

So, how do we encourage downvoting for the 'wanted' categories without facilitating downvoting for the 'unwanted' ones? Removing the reputation cost (to the voter) would probably do both. Increasing the reputation penalty (to the poster) would certainly make the Category 6 and 5 votes more effective, and would probably encourage them; it could possibly also help with the Category 4 cases, as it may more often induce self-deletion, and thus save both Community delete votes (a limited resource) and Review Queue time.

Category 3 could possibly be encouraged by removing the voter-cost for non-anonymous downvotes (i.e. when a constructively critical comment is made at the same time); however, removing voter anonymity is a BIG can of worms to open.

The effects of any facilitation of downvoting (i.e. cost-removal) in Category 2 could be removed by preventing downvotes on answers where there is such a 'conflict of interest': i.e. I can't downvote another answer to a question that I have answered, or, conversely, I can't post an answer where I've already downvoted somebody else's - but that then messes up the downvote-plus-better-answer option for Category 5.

Apologies for the train-of-thought nature of this post, and for the fact that it may ask more questions than it answers; however, I hope it brings some useful thoughts into the discussion. And, as a parting thought: I think we need to emphasize educating people about the usefulness and positivity of downvotes, rather than concentrating solely on tweaking the mechanism(s).

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  • I'm not sure I'm with you on 6 "or those that are posted (especially by high-rep users who should know better) on poor questions". I agree that it's not preferable to have answers on closable Question, but I can't bring myself to downvote a really good Answer. Some Questions are also not closeable, but just poor, sitting there with a -3 waiting for someone to try their luck with a Lifejacket or perhaps even a Lifeboat
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:19
  • @Scratte Yeah, it's not clear cut. Posting answers to known or obvious dupes is one thing (and a whole different discussion, here on Meta); but I would place those who post an answer when a comment would do in much the same boat. The full "Typo" close reason ends with, "...this one was resolved in a way less likely to help future readers." Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:23
  • @Scratte To make matters 'worse': I've been 'told off' by high-rep long-timers both for posting an answer that should have been a comment and for posting a comment that should have been an answer. Meh. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:26
  • It's funny how that goes. The opinion of one user, however seasoned, should not exclusively determine policy. One could even argue that it's bullying. If it's two seasoned users, the argument is really between them, with you as the hostage.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:31
  • @Scratte Anyway, I've edited my Category 6 to make it a bit clearer what I meant. Thanks for pointing out the flaw - and you can (obviously) retract and reverse your downvote, now! 😉‎ Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:35
  • 7
    Category 4 is actually OK. As Shog once put it: if you're willing to delete vote it, you'll certainly want to down vote it."
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:09
  • 3
    Or, to solve category 2, downvotes could only cost if you've got an answer on the question too (even if you post the answer afterwards). That way, you can still downvote if answers are bad.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 13:41
  • 3
    You forgot no. 7: Downvotes for no reason! You got no comment or hint why your question is bad. Sometimes people don't really read what you were asking. They read it very quickly, don't really understand the problem, and downvote it. It doesn't matter if you have a code example or not.
    – testing
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 9:25
  • 1
    @blackgreen We don't know; but we can often tell when we get them; and sometimes we may suspect who's doing it. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:40
  • 5
    @testing Downvotes are always for a reason. You may not be told what the reason was, and the reason may be good or bad, but it's never correct to say the downvote happened "for no reason". (This applies to most things, not just downvotes.)
    – Brilliand
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 23:38
  • 2
    @Brilliand: I don't agree. Voting is subjective, because people are subjective. Today I received a downvote where I answered my own question. In this question the only solution I could come up with was reinstalling the tool. No other user provided a solution and this solves the problem. What is wrong with this answer? Nothing. There is no "real" reason. Sure there is a reason: the user doesn't want to reinstall and doesn't see that a solution. I also didn't want to reinstall, but sometimes there is no other option. It is a valid answer and voting is subjective. It isn't objective as you state.
    – testing
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 7:25
  • 2
    @testing So you know the reason for that downvote: someone thought your answer was bad because it was a lot of work to solve something that "should" be easy (and possibly also because you didn't explain what was causing the problem). Calling that a downvote "for no reason" wouldn't be correct at all. In fact I could see myself downvoting such an answer - the reply "just reboot/reinstall/close and reopen" is a standard technical support guess that frequently makes the problem go away, but doesn't actually fix it. I think that counts as a "Purgative/Curative" downvote.
    – Brilliand
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 19:24
  • 1
    @Brilliand The reason for the error is a bug in the software. Nobody posted a solution/fix for the problem. Perhaps this is solved in an update. But what should I do? Don‘t post the solution, which solved my problem? I understand your viewpoint, but you don‘t quite get the big picture. The error is for sure not easy replicable, but it is/was there. And since this is/was a bug, there is nothing you could do - other than updating or reinstalling. The solution is therefore not bad. And I never expierenced the bug again. This was my last option - not my first one.
    – testing
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 19:38
  • 2
    @testing I haven't seen your answer so I don't know the details, but IMO an answer recommending to upgrade your software should at bare minimum state which version the problem was fixed in. (In any case you haven't made much of a case at all for adding a "no reason" downvote category.)
    – Brilliand
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 2:31
  • 1
    @Brilliand: I see that we agree that we don't agree. Here again you don't want to understand my point nor my issue. Do you think after solving my problem I will try to replicate the error with each update? Only to post that? Should I fix the programm by myself? I have done everything I could do and you would downvote it. Thats the reason why downvoting should not be encouraged, because people not always understand the problem and only vote subjective. That was only one example - I could bring more on the table. But I see that you don't accept any arguments and therefore the discussion is over.
    – testing
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 7:58
26

Remove vote counts from my public profile.

It might seem pretty minor, but the fact that any random person on the internet and potential employer can see how many downvotes I've cast has discouraged me from casting them fairly strongly for quite a while.

Some might believe having a bad upvote-to-downvote ratio implies you're overly critical, which isn't exactly a good trait. Although I would argue I just have high standards and I've spent quite a bit of time moderating, which tends to skew one towards more of the downvote-worthy content on the site.

I don't really mind the combined number of votes cast ("X votes cast") on one's profile, but what is even the point of breaking the vote counts down into number of upvotes and number of downvotes for all to see?

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    I am not sure why would you share this information with your employer. It's true that they are not necessary but they do come in handy from time to time. This should not stop you from voting. Casting downvotes means you are caring and you want to support this site. It does not mean you are overly critical.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:27
  • 1
    Your up / down vote activity is not visible to the public only you.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:27
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    @Lankymart The vote count (total up, total down) [is actually public](cln.sh/XcBCpb.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:30
  • 6
    @Dharman A (potential) employer could see it, and anything else that's public on your profile, if your profile is linked in any way to your real name. This would include using Stack Overflow Jobs.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:33
  • 1
    @NotThatGuy I am sorry but either you are a little bit paranoid or you have a bad employer who is constantly spying on you instead of organizing work for you.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:35
  • @Lankymart Yes, the vote count. This is what this answer is about.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:35
  • 4
    @Dharman I don't think my current employer would care about that at all, but some potential (future) employers may look for, and try to draw conclusions from, whatever data they can find about me online. This seems especially relevant to someone who has little to no social media presence (which limits the amount of data points).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:40
  • @Lankymart You can see the vote count for each user. The screenshot in a previous comment is from your profile.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:40
  • @yivi Didn't know that.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:42
  • 9
    I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented. The site has a history of hiding information which could be used to judge the poster of the content inappropriately (i.e. the acceptance rate), and judgments on Meta over users' vote ratios do happen.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:47
  • 7
    @dha When you use Stack Overflow Jobs, you don't even have an option not to share that information. The concerns raised here aren't about your current employer monitoring your actions. It's rather about getting filtered out from the potential interview candidates based on the information publicly available. That's a valid concern. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:58
  • 1
    Funny enough, I have a professional reputation for being critical, if not outright difficult—but that’s not reflected in my Stack Overflow voting ratio. Despite using my real name, I haven’t really considered that my Stack Overflow behavior might impact my professional reputation. Thinking about it this way motivates me to downvote more frequently, less my customers and coworkers think I’ve grown soft. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:56
25

The problem is when users create their account, we have a badge that encourages upvoting. It's the Supporter badge, and it was the first one I earned.

Since downvoting is a privilege that comes much later, it's hard to then shift users towards downvoting again, because they think that upvoting is better.

People think downvotes are a mean thing to do to someone, essentially.

A way to fix this would be to put a paragraph about downvoting in the tour page, because currently there is nothing that says

When you see a bad post, downvote it!

That would be a step in the right direction.

The next step would be to change the tooltip around the downvote button. For instance, instead of:

This questions does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful

We could do:

This question could definitely be improved, either by users like you or by the OP.

The final step:

New contributors think downvoting is some sort of attack on someone, which it is not. The reason they think this is because they lose reputation and get punished, and they don't want others to suffer.

A new contributor could lose only 1 reputation when they get downvoted, but if they get 3 downvotes, then after that they lose the usual 2 rep. This way, questions that aren't completely horrible can be edited by the OP, since he isn't being punished as much.

The final step is definitely not perfect, but if we get rid of the downvoting stigma for new users or contributors then downvoting would happen when it should.

Ok, the final final step :)

We could remove the 1 rep cost of downvoting only and only if:

  1. You have downvoted before you posted an answer, and then optionally posted an answer afterwards.

  2. You have downvoted because the answer is bad, and then leave.

However, we remove 1 rep when:

  1. You downvote an answer when you have an existing answer on that question.

  2. You downvote an answer which later gets upvoted by 3 or more people. (I don't know about this one)

  3. You downvote an answer which later gets upvoted by a dupehammer or a moderator. (Also not sure about this one).

I think with these three steps, downvoting will lose the stupid stigma it is around, and finally that down button will be pressed.

2
  • 5
    I hadn't considered that. Maybe a second stage "Welcome!" page that discusses how important the downvote action is once you get the privilege. It would probably just be clicked through though.
    – zero298
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:09
  • 2
    @zero298 Ya, it would be skipped through :(
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:10
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  • By removing the personal reduction in reputation incurred from downvoting answers. Questions? Oh, hey, I gladly downvote bad questions. Get that garbage away. Answers... Well, I've already lost quite a bit reputation (considering how much I've received). I always wanted more reputation, to gain more privileges, so I could better help contributing to the site. The latest 365 days, though...

  • or... by giving me a daily fixed income of reputation. Realistic? Not so much.

  • By having the SE company stop insulting me by claiming that downvoting is rude.

I'm aware that removing the -1 penalty opens us up to some pure incorrect downvoting, like targeted downvoting. This is an issue. Therefore, I cannot say that this must be done.

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  • 3
    By having the SE company stop insulting me by claiming that downvoting is rude. --> when/where this happened? Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:25
  • 17
    @TemaniAfif The past year. They’ve claimed that Meta is a rude and unfriendly place. Downvotes has been marked as a source of «unwelcomeness» for new members, and the community has been blamed for being so rude. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:56
  • 3
    (Also: thanks to whoever encourages me to be a more active downvoter. :)) Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:58
  • 3
    None of the concerns about being rude or unwelcoming have had anything to do with downvoting. It is neither of those things. The voting system is not part of the "welcoming" initiative: that has focused on reducing the number of rude comments, etc.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:27
  • 12
    @CodyGray No, it’s not part of the welcoming initiative, but people do take downvotes as an unwelcoming feature of the site, and so other means are established to counter that. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:48
  • 40
    I feel highly unwelcomed when I come across a low-quality post that has not been downvoted, despite how many times it's been viewed. It's as if my peers are refusing to help me out by curating or otherwise indicating low-quality content, thus forcing me to look at it anew.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 22:02
  • 2
    I can relate to the first point. I've almost never downvoted bad answers before reaching 3k reputation.
    – Georgy
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 22:31
  • 3
    @TemaniAfif - Daily; It’s happening daily Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 22:54
  • 3
    @CodyGray Yes, yes. There are even some bad answers (at the time they were written too) with 50+ net votes. I’ve downvoted some of those. Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 22:55
  • You can use a budget so your total reputation points never go down: 1) Make a list of answers you want to downvote 2) After the first upvote in any given week spend some or all of it on downvotes (from the list), but not so many that the balance goes negative (search for your user name on that page - the number is the change in the current week (starts Sunday at 00:00:01 UTC)) Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:57
  • 6
    @CodyGray Some people do feel unwelcomed because of the downvotes: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/180692/… . I'm not sure why you think that what you feel is a valid counterexample :)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 14:46
  • 4
    @BartoszKP I suppose we can't cater for everyone's feelings, right? :) A line needs to be drawn on which feelings are justified and which are not so much.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 20:16
  • 5
    @CodyGray typically SE uses "unwelcoming" or "personal" when describing downvotes (therefore linking it to the welcoming initiative) and give a "use downvotes but really, don't really use downvotes" style answer (i.e. a lot of confusing, mixed answers/comments like the one I linked which starts as "downvotes are good" and ends in "downvotes will always be personal"). Also, removing "doesn't show research" from the downvote tooltip is a pretty clear stop using this in my eyes Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 4:42
  • 4
    As for unwelcoming, I've seen bad questions get down voted to -1 or -2 and closed. And when I look again later they've got -4 or -5 down votes, with no further explanation. Piling on = "...and don't come back!"
    – ourmandave
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:20
  • 1
    @ourmandave as a negative score will automatically delete the answer/question (and close it if it is a question). If this is an issue the answer is not "downvote less" its "provide better options" (when your only tool is a hammer everything looks like nails situation). I personally see the opposite anymore though - answers & questions getting upvotes to counter the downvotes people are giving to help curate. Its worth looking at in SEDE but difficult to query for (would have to be time delimited by voting groupings) Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 23:26
24

Perhaps we could get a number of free answer downvotes each week, instead of each downvote costing -1 reputation every time.

So if we downvote fewer than a certain number of answers each week, we don't lose any reputation, but any subsequent downvotes would then cost -1.

3
  • 11
    For users with low rep this could increase the number of downvotes. And it would be a compromise between keeping the cost and not keeping the cost. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:20
  • 2
    I've considered this, but as @Trilarion has mentioned, it would result in having to micromanage downvotes. A better solution would be to use a ratio of downvotes to upvotes. If upvote I cast outweighed the negative impacts of two downvotes, I could downvote whenever I found it useful, without getting close to the limit. Downvoting answers that appear above yours on questions you have answered should probably count negatively irregardless.
    – ecc521
    Commented Jun 26, 2020 at 20:04
  • @ecc521 I like that too. Thanks for the feedback.
    – user13709754
    Commented Jun 26, 2020 at 21:27
20

This question, I think, misunderstands part of the psychology and workflow of voting in a couple of respects.

This part especially stood out to me:

Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes?

I think the answer to that is reasonably obvious: Most users post an answer that they think is a good one. So when they get an up-vote that's in harmony with their own view of their answer. In their own mind there is no mystery and so it's natural that they don't have a question about it. They thought they posted something useful and someone rewarded them for it. When they get a down-vote, they are confronted by something they potentially don't understand. They thought their answer was good and someone is saying it's not. Even if the community is sure the answer is poor, the person who posted acts from their own perception. It's natural that they want to understand why and how that discrepancy between their view and the actual result happened.

The other aspect of the voting ratio, I think, comes from how people use the site. If I come in looking for an answer for a specific problem, I read the question to see if it matches my situation and then start reading answers. Usually I stop when I find an answer that deals with my problem, which is usually toward the top of list when ranked by votes. That's great - curation has helped me. I'm reasonably likely to add an up-vote to the ones that I used, signaling to anyone coming later that I read them and found them useful. I'm not likely to keep reading other answers - potentially bad answers - at the bottom of the list just to down-vote them if they're bad. I'm already moving on to the next task in my real job once I get my solution, I'm not staying to read every answer to the question just for the sake of further curating. The answers most worthy of a down-vote are probably already at the bottom of the list, so I never read them. To put this more shortly - Good curation leads to fewer down-votes on bad answers by reducing the number of bad answers that are read. I'm not going to down-vote it if I don't read it.

As for potential improvements related to this issue:

  • For questions with multiple answers, consider putting the lowest ranked answers into a queue for possible deletion even if they have positive net votes after a certain amount of time. This would make the down-vote more powerful as a curation tool since you don't necessarily need to beat out all of the up-votes to impact the disposition. The exact flow for this would need to be carefully designed - You could have cases, for example, where the answer to a question changes over time so a new answer with updated information is relevant even if it takes a while for it to match the score of an older answer that was itself good at the time that it was written. In addition to killing of genuinely bad answers, this may also discourage people form posting repeat answers as we see often, i.e., in the late answer queue.
  • An answer that is down-voted and flagged, at least in certain flagging categories, should not have the reputation loss. Flagging in those categories should actually automatically down-vote. If you're putting your name down with a flag, you're probably not revenge voting. No need for a penalty there to discourage bad behavior.
  • Separately limit the number of daily up and down votes.
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  • Yes - the reason why people get "upset" at downvotes on their answers - or their questions for that matter - seems completely obvious to me. A downvote means "something about this is wrong or bad". Which means "to be right or good, something about this would have to change". OK, so what would have to change? On the other hand, an upvote is saying "this is already right or good". We don't have to be told what makes it good - the thing that makes it good is "it" per se. It's already there.
    – allmhuran
    Commented Jul 8, 2020 at 2:40
  • 2
    <irony>Why the downvote?</irony>
    – Brick
    Commented Jul 9, 2020 at 0:48
14

I was a manager for a long time.

One of my standard "aphorisms" was: "Encourage the person; discourage the behavior."

i.e., make encouragement personal, and discouragement tightly focused on only the specific behavior we want to deprecate, avoiding applying value judgments to the person exhibiting the behavior.

I learned this from teachers (I've had a lot of them in my family).

YMMV, but it worked for me.

Translated to SO:

UPVOTES: Adds to reputation, and makes the question/answer more visible and prominent.

DOWNVOTES: Has no effect on rep. score; for either the poster or the downvoter. Only affects the specific post; reducing its visibility and prominence.

Might be worth a shot.

I'd also like to see a requirement for an explanation for the downvote, even if anonymously. I've had perfectly good questions downvoted, and have no idea why. I sincerely want to fix the issue, but cannot see it. An explanation would be helpful.

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    I do think this is a good idea, however, we'd need to make sure there's actually a downside to being downvoted. As it currently stands, this change would still have downvotes affecting the visibility of the post and the users ability to post future questions/answers, but without clear messaging about this fact being presented to the user receiving the votes, i fear they'll just be ignored since the user isn't visibly losing anything for them. I don't think removing the rep parts of downvoting would have any real impact on people's overall rep.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 13:32
  • 1
    There are of course edge cases, for example, i'd all of a sudden have close vote privileges again on meta.se, but i think for the avg user they aren't downvoting enough or receiving enough downvotes for it to really have a major impact.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 13:34
  • I'm sure there are a lot of things that would need to be considered, like upvotes only affecting rep after 0. I'm just sharing a bit of wisdom that I learned from someone else. Like I said, I applied it in my work, and it was effective. I do think that it is important to explain downvotes. It's entirely possible that some downvotes I have received were petty (I have a hard time kissing rings, and that doesn't always win me friends), but I am sure that most had some legitimate reason, and it's a shame that I had no idea what the reason was. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 13:49
  • 2
    Perhaps the discouraging factor is a negative score on the "work", the post itself. I imagine even high reputation users want their post scores to be positive.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 14:12
  • 1
    Another helpful thing, would be to have downvoters notified when the post they downvoted is edited. That way, for example, if they downvote a post because it was not clear enough, can remove the downvote when it is clarified. I think that it would be a shame to have very good questions or answers ignored, because their first draft was downvoted. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 15:32
  • 1
    I'd also like to see a requirement for an explanation for the downvote. I agree, but there is a problem with this. It's more time consuming for some people, and for a very bad post, there would be repeated comments.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 22:13
  • 1
    @KevinB - Isn't the lack of an answer enough of a 'downside'? When I tackle the question queue in a community other than SO, there is a clear trend: Bad questions have no answers or up-votes, and bad answers have no up-votes. Good questions have answers and up-votes, and good answers have up-votes. There are very few down-votes. But still a powerful motivation to write good questions & answers. Like my mom always said: "If you don't have anything nice to say, just don't say anything at all. They'll still get the message.":-)
    – Tracy
    Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 22:38
  • @Tracy No, not as long as bounties exist, and as long as rep continues to be skewed heavily toward gaining rep regardless of how crap your contributions.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 31, 2020 at 19:12
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SO says: you should not downvote

It's not about that little reputation point (although it might add up for lower rep users who are very serious about voting a lot).

But in principle it still is a penalty! The reputation system implies that good deeds give you badges and rep, while bad deeds make you pay. The underlying signal of that penalty point, is that SO doesn't want you to downvote.

Possible solution: rep as currency rather than performance counter

Of course (?) rep should be seen more as a currency than just as a reward counter, but there is so little you can spend it on! Maybe there should be more ways of spending this currency. Let people use their rep to buy hats, colored mark-up, other gimmicks, or maybe even more useful features. Instead of automatically handing out more site functions when people gain rep, let them buy it (if they want). That way you can get more into the habit of spending your coin, or just letting it sit in the 'bank'. It will feel more like just another spending if you downvote. You could even put a price on upvoting too. Let the money flow!

Newcomers say: you should not downvote

Another thing is being welcoming to new users. This mainly applies to questions.

Being downvoted is a big fear for new users, often expressed in the questions in the form of "please don't downvote me" (sometimes appended with a request for feedback).

This tells me that those users do take it personally, or at least too seriously, and I get the impression that downvotes are part of what makes SO unwelcoming to newcomers. As you say, we're downvoting content, not people, but still there is this perception. That perception needs to be tackled somehow, otherwise there will be an eternal ping-pong game between downvoting poor content and being welcoming, even though they shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

Possible solution: delayed downvotes, or delayed effect of downvotes

Sometimes I see questions that don't even seem that bad. Even though they might be hard to answer you can at least tell that someone tried to ask a good question, but nevertheless such questions easily got 2 or 3 downvotes in very little time. New users who don't have experience with the speed of SO will come back after a couple of hours or a day, only to find their question is at -4 and is pretty much invisible to anyone.

I don't know exactly how this would work, but maybe there could be, sort of, preliminary downvotes. Like "Downvote this question if it won't improve in 2 days". Of course anything that postpones downvotes may result in some shock if the question goes from seemlingly 0 to -5 at once, two days after it was posted, so there still has to be a way for OP to know that their post was received negatively and needs improving.. Tricky.

Anyway, automatic improvement detection is probably hard to build, but maybe a reminder will do. I'd love to be able to bookmark questions and get some reminder about them on my next visit.
That way, I can suggest improvements or ask for clarification and postpone my downvote. If I get notified the next day and the question is improved, it's a win for every party. If it isn't, I can still cast a downvote. At least the asker has been given the chance to work on their question.

Sometimes I've used the 'favorite' feature for that, but it feels wrong. I've also bookmarked specific questions in my browser, but that feels cumbersome (especially since I'm working on different machines). Since both don't really work well, I've been refraining from voting when questions were 'not great but not very bad', hoping that OP would fix them up in response to comments.

Possible solution: emphasize that it's not personal

If someone revisits their question and it received a couple of downvotes, maybe show a notification explaining again that it's not personal. For example: "Downvotes are not personal. They usually indicate that your question is lacking details or doesn't reveal the research you have done. Turn the tide by adding relevant details to your question."

Also, let them undo the rep loss for instance by self-closing their question as duplicate of another question.

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    "Downvote this question if it won't improve in 2 days": That would complete defeat the purpose of preventing answerers to waste time on bad questions. If I don't see the score of a question until two days later, I have to read all questions in the new question feed and can't use judgement of others to focus on questions that are worth the effort.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 6:36
  • 2
    @BDL Yeah, that part is tricky. Of course the downvotes themselves are valuable feedback. It's just that, if you managed to attract 3 downvotes first, there is virtually no way to turn that around. Your question drops in the rankings, people who downvoted won't revisit it, and others often won't even see it. I think it's that effect that make posted dread downvotes, and makes votes feel sorry for downvoting (and not voting as much as they would).
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 6:48
  • 2
    I always wonders why SO displays both, the score and the content creators name, so prominently next to a contribution. I think that makes it very personal. Maybe the combination of content-creator-score should be break up into content-creator and content-score to make it less personal. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:19
  • It has nothing to do with unwelcoming. I still get downvotes on question with no obvious reason. Hey I don't know how I should improve the question if you doesn't write a comment. Perhaps the person had a bad day and thinks through downvoting they can get rid of it.
    – testing
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 9:29
  • "preventing answerers to waste time on bad questions" -- I might suggest that /good/ answerers don't waste time on bad questions. /Bad/ answerers -- those that rapid-fire low-quality answers to low-quality questions in the hopes of gaining reputation -- are wasting the time on the bad questions. Of course, even if I'm right, that doesn't really help solve the problem... Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:32
  • 1
    @BrianA.Henning They have to read the question and assess whether it's worth answering. Sure, that typically won't take as much time as actually answering it, but in the current setup, the visibility of a question is lowered after some downvotes, so the first couple of downvotes protect others against having to make the same assessment.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 16:15
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    I like this answer because it seriously considers the effect that downvotes have on other new users who are considering contributing. The anxiety new users feel about this may well be driving away good contributors, leaving mostly contributors who don't care about being downvoted — thus making the problem worse, not better.
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 20:07
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I disagree with the premise of the question that we need to be encouraging people to downvote more.

The question states that there eight times as many upvotes on Stack Overflow as downvotes, as if that were necessarily a bad thing. I don't think we should be aiming for 50% upvotes 50% downvotes.

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    I don't think we should be aiming for 50% upvotes 50% downvotes. --> true, we should be aiming for 20% upvotes and 80 downvotes Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:45
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    @TemaniAfif, And such an approach would probably wipe a lot of good content from low traffic tags right off of the site. And it would crush some of the beta sites.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:51
  • 6
    no it won't, the good content is far from being the most present one on the site. We get one good answer within at least 50 answers (and even more). After all, we don't give blind downvotes but we do if for bad content. If we only had good content, then there is no reason for downvotes but we are far from this. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:13
  • 3
    @TemaniAfif, you are using some numbers here in your comments. From where they are? I was told above what the problem with lack of downvotes is in rare-tags area (with low traffic). Is it so? Can it be potentially fought (like really, if there is little people, can you improve anything)? What impact change is going to do on high traffic tags (e.g. c#) ?
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:30
  • 4
    @Sinatr they comes from my experience and the tags where I am active. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:52
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    Interesting fact from corporate teams: "The average [praise to criticism] ratio for the highest-performing teams was 5.6" (source). So the 8.0 ratio seems about right to me :)
    – tanius
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 19:53
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    You are right Flimm, there is absolutely no basis shown for what the ratio should be or why the current ratio is problematic. All that follows is pointless conjecture. This community is so caught up with removing content it forgot how to create it. A large reason why the majority of high frequency content providers have largely stopped contributing.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 21:08
  • 1
    @TravisJ Wait high frequency content providers or high quality content providers? We have a shortage of the latter; I don't think we have any shortage of the former.
    – Brilliand
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 21:20
  • If it wasn't clear, I am talking about those who answer questions. Asking them, while important, doesn't necessarily have to be qualitative; on the other hand, answering them always have to be qualitative, for the most part. If you are unaware of the overall situation, perhaps doing some research would be beneficial.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 23:01
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    Having had a lot of time to mull it over I sort of agree with this answer now... except not in the way this is argued. What I disagree with is that encouragement is needed to downvote. What is needed is encouragement to vote, in general. If downvotes are warranted then that should naturally lead to more downvoting happening. It sends out the wrong signal to hammer specifically on downvoting, that is what makes people on Youtube go "See!? Bunch of toxic aholes". Correct wording is more important than ever.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 11, 2022 at 12:57
10

Let me first clarify that I am all for encouraging downvotes. That said, I have concerns about couple of suggestions in other answers;

  • There's a suggestion here that you should get a badge or reputation if your downvotes result in certain number of posts getting deleted.

95% of my downvotes result in the post getting deleted, mostly roomba'd. But I always keep this in mind that we are instructed to steer clear of downvoting to trigger roomba. Downvotes should be merely used based on quality of the posts 1, 2 . Let's assume a bad question which has a quality answer. Considering the thread altogether, one decides that it should be deleted. IMHO, the right path is casting close votes and delete votes later. While the suggestion above encourages downvoting the question and the quality answer to trigger (abuse) roomba.

1. Clean-up by downvoting? A ridiculous user experience

2. Downvote in order to be able to vote to delete. Is it acceptable?

  • There's also a suggestion about removing '-1 rep cost of downvoting an answer'.

The issue here is with people abusing their downvotes. If we remove the cost, people would downvote their competitors (other answers on a post which they've posted an answer to). There's also an issue of revenge downvotes, which without that penalty, would rise to the roof.

So What can be done?

As I said, I have concerns about these suggestions, but I don't think they are completely out of place. We do need to encourage downvotes instead of penalizing users for using their downvoting privilege (same as the way we encourage upvotes with badges like Supporter and Sportsmanship or other ways which are mentioned in the other posts).

I think if we could increase the level of monitoring on revenge downvotes and other abuses, it'd be helpful to move forward with the suggestions above; but it is much easier said than done. I very much liked the restrictions suggested by Temani Afif at the end of their answer, which I quote them here.

I know there is room for a lot of abuse, but we can add some restriction like applying this logic (M--'s comment: giving back extra reputation when a post gets deleted) to only users under 5k or limit the earning of the extra +1 to only +X per day, etc.



As I referenced Temani's answer, I want to point out a major issue with one of their "proposals": 'pushing all new negative answers to a queue where we can review them'.

I believe we already have enough review queues and adding yet another one while there are many issues with the current ones (e.g. triage), doesn't seem great. Let me point out that in a perfect world (world: SE communities), that would not be the worst idea. But beside the issue with other queues, opening a new one for downvoted answer has a prime difference with VLQ queue. Generally, one does not need domain knowledge of the subject to evaluate low quality posts. On the other hand, a user usually needs to be subject matter expert (or at least familiar with the issue) to fathom the problem with the post and decide whether to downvote or not. Good or bad, we do not still have any restriction on the reviews you can attend based on your knowledge of that tag (i.e. reputation, in the context of SO). So pushing downvoted posts to a queue doesn't seem to be appropriate, at least at the moment.

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    to extend your last point: we need to add restriction based on knowledge and tag activity like I explained here: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/393400/8620333 .. reviewing a downvoted answer or a closed question requires you to have at least a minimum activity in the related tag. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 20:02
  • @TemaniAfif Agreed. As I said, "at least at the moment". But it seems you are one step ahead of me :) Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 20:06
9

My two cents.

As I see it the main reason some users abstain totally to down vote is because it has a penalty attached (for downvoting answers). In my experience, when you down vote a post your post also get down voted. Never seen anybody who takes being down voted well. It is seen as a personal attack of some sort.

For low reputation folks like me, losing reputation means you don't get the next privilege or something. It may look silly but that is the way it is.

So no wonder some people just stay away from it.

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    This is more of a statement than an answer to the question. Do you have a proposed solution to tackle this?
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:07
  • @Adriaan The proposed solution is most probably to remove the attached penalty. I agree that the answer is a bit short. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:14
  • 1
    On the contrary, people who post here are too attached to overly wordy answers! Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:27
  • 1
    Can you change it (by editing your answer) to be more clear? By penalty, do you mean reputation points penalty for the voter only? Or more broadly (for the receiver of downvotes)? It seems to be the former, but it could be more clear. (There isn't any reputation points penalty for downvoting questions.) Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:13
  • That's true for beginners with low reputation. Believe me, with few thousands rep (and constant income from old answers) you just don't think about -1 anymore. I have few hundereds rep on another site and there I don't care about my rep at all, constantly casting downvotes to wrong answer.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:21
  • @Sinatr Right. But I have been down voted by a guy with 32K reputation because I down voted an answer that was clearly a non-answer.
    – user3103059
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:26
  • @agcala, if you get serial downvoted, then just flag one of such posts with custom flag and write more details to moderator. Single downvote doesn't prove: 1) it was the guy you think 2) it has anything to do with your downvote.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:28
  • @PeterMortensen Sorry. Yeah I mean you usually gets down voted by the person you down vote. Some people with low reputation like me think it twice before down voting someone if you are going to get down voted as well.
    – user3103059
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:29
  • @Sinatr You can decide by yourself looking at it No I have never been serial downvoted.
    – user3103059
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:34
  • 1
    @agcala, I can't see who casted downvote. It could be him and it could be a revenge downvote. Just ignore it. Over the time wrong answers tends to get less upvotes and more downvotes than correct ones.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:39
  • @Sinatr I have got over it long ago, :) It was just the only single time that happened to me. But I have seen it happening to other people as well.
    – user3103059
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:42
  • @PeterMortensen But there is a penalty for downvoting answers
    – user3103059
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:10
  • 1
    It is seen as a personal attack of some sort.. +1 because that is completely true. Downvoting is seen as some sort of cyber attack :)
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 22:31
9

How I generally feel about downvoting

If the post will end up getting deleted, closed or heavily downvoted, my downvote probably isn't necessary. There just isn't a significant difference between -10 and -11, and closure and/or deletion already provides a fairly strong signal to the system about the quality of the post (for question bans and things). Of course if everyone feels like this, nothing will get downvoted, but that knowledge doesn't make my own downvote feel more effective.

If none of those apply (i.e. it's an upvoted post, when my downvote is more important and I probably care more about it), some others will likely disagree with my downvote and actively counter it with upvotes, meaning my downvotes have the opposite effect. It has happened to me multiple times that I downvote a post and someone posts a comment explicitly saying they're upvoting to counter the downvote of myself and potentially others. I understand that people will disagree with me about whether something should be downvoted or upvoted, and that's fine, but there's a huge difference between people upvoting in isolation and them doing so due to my downvote (when they wouldn't otherwise have upvoted). The latter just undermines the exact reason to downvote in the first place. I also doesn't help that my downvote plus even a single countervote ends up giving the question/answer 3/8 reputation, often at the cost of my own hard-earned reputation. (This might be a problem on the subjective sites like Interpersonal Skills or The Workplace more than the technical sites like Stack Overflow, but my feelings about downvotes doesn't change from one site to the other and the more technical sites tends not to have such a big problem with upvoted posts that should be downvoted, or at least I just don't care that much about specific instances of such posts)

Downvotes also aren't particularly actionable by themselves. The tooltip seems pretty clear to me, but it is pretty generic and more specific feedback is generally more useful. I have seen endless examples of people complaining about downvotes they don't understand or asking for an explanation. Downvotes does quantify how bad a post is, which could provide a wake-up call for some. But overall that doesn't seem super useful and just explaining what's wrong using a comment (or closure) is probably sufficient. I could downvote and comment/close, but that doesn't change any of the reasons I don't downvote listed above and below.

Add to this the fact that getting downvoted just doesn't feel good (for me and for others, based on what I've seen them say). We can preach all we want that we vote on content and not users, but that doesn't make it feel much better. I don't want to do things that makes others feel bad (and not much else, as per the above).

If someone posts something in good faith, even if it's low quality, it seems nicer and more effective for me to just leave a comment about how to improve the post (even if those get ignored like 95% of the time) or just fix it myself, if able. And, of course, I would vote to close and/or delete it if it doesn't belong on the site in its current state.

If someone posts something in bad faith, there are usually other better means available to deal with it, like closing, flagging or ripping it apart with an edit to turn it into an appropriate question (if they post a bad faith question that ends up being a great question, joke's on them).

What will help?

Honestly? I don't really know.

A number of the suggestions posted here to encourage downvoting might improve things, but I feel like there's a fundamental problem with how downvoting works.

Don't get me wrong though. I do understand the purpose of downvoting and I wouldn't propose just getting rid of it. There just seems to be a disconnect between that theoretical purpose and how it works in the real world.

I also know how controversial requests to change how downvotes work usually are (even if I feel like some of them might have some merit), so I wouldn't want my feelings on the subject to get drowned out by a focus on some specific suggestions. I'm sure you can find plenty of suggestions on the subject here on Meta if you felt so inclined.

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    There just seems to be a disconnect between that theoretical purpose and how it works in the real world. I totally agree with this and blame the be nice policy. Even high-reps are wary of causing any trouble to avoid permanent ban / temporary account suspension / being called out on meta and thus they often refrain from downvoting or giving any other kind of negative feedback. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 8:15
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    @oguzismail I don't know how much the "be nice" policy has affected how others vote, but my feelings on voting doesn't have much to do with that. Yes, I do mention not wanting to make others feel bad, but that's less about following a policy that says I need to be nice and more about wanting to be nice.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 8:57
8

I like the already presented ideas to improve the downvote process but I think that we still need to de-demonize the concept of downvotes for affected users. In my opinion, this would in turn encourage downvoting on all sides.

Most people are used to voting systems on various Social Media sites. I feel that those votes always mean something personal: "I like your post", "What's with this trash post?", "I'm on the same page as you are".

So it's no wonder that those people also see something personal in the voting system SO has integrated, even though it is actually targeted at the contents and usefulness of a post. (Blablabla this has been discussed to death!)

Furthermore, many new users don't actually know how SO works and they really don't care. They have a problem, they want it solved, done! So it's no wonder that many feel attacked, when more established users downvote a question/answer into oblivion (and somtimes, downvotes are cast simply because there are already some downvotes). Those users simply don't know what the actual goal of downvotes is.

I have two suggestions:

Look at Reddit

Reddit voting

I guess this has been suggested already...

New posts don't show their votes for the first 1-2 hours to prevent influence voting. Not displaying the votes immediately might prevent the OP from feeling discouraged. Additionally, other SO users might be more inclined to leave comments to notify OP about their action and the reasons behind it.

Established users with >= 1000 Rep would still see votes as they are displayed today though.

If the question gets closed before votes are made visible, it might encourage the OP to actually improve their question because they are not intimidated by that -X on the left side. They have more time to follow the suggested links in the close message.

Show downvoted OP a banner

Maybe something along the lines of:

Oops, it looks like the community decided that your post does not follow SO guidelines and downvoted accordingly. Remember, downvotes are not targeted at you!

To improve your post, please go through [various Help links]...

I don't know exactly when it would make sense to show this banner? After the first (invisible) downvote? After the votes have been made visible? Don't show it anymore after the question got closed?

All in all, I think this might take out the "personal" component of downvotes.

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    Reddit is not a Q/A site dedicated to programmers, and up/down votes there represent rather whether the content panders to majority than the quality, so it cannot serve as an appropriate model in this context. And I really didn't get how hiding the post score from its author will help encourage downvoting. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 9:46
  • 3
    @oguzismail How is this any different? It's two arrows with a point instead of a number? The only difference is that on Reddit the point sometime reveals the actual number of votes. Then it's the same thing as on SO. Of course, Reddit's (or any other social platform's) model builds on personal opinions, not quality rating. But that's what I've been writing. New users might think SO's voting system works the same way as Reddit's when it actually doesn't. Hiding the score increases voting-independence, anonymity and obscures any relation between downvotes and comments.
    – QBrute
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 10:31
  • 1
    A downvote alone sends a clear message to the author that their question/answer does not meet the quality standards of the site. I like how straightforward that message is. If downvotes were invisible I would have to leave comments on how to improve/what's wrong etc., which is boring, and really hard to do right. Copying this stupid concept from Reddit would not encourage me to downvote, it would accustom me to low quality content. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:56
  • 1
    "New posts don't show their votes for the first 1-2 hours to prevent influence voting." that seems like a very good idea, even if that's not really related to the question.
    – cglacet
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 10:34
  • It is definitely a good idea for Reddit, a site which is absolutely not Stack Overflow.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 2, 2020 at 12:24
8

All of the other answers are correct in their own ways, but I do believe that the reason why downvoting is not as common as upvoting, in the Stack Overflow site, is because of the result that comes to the downvoter. If one downvotes an answer, they will lose 1 reputation. For many users, reputation is a big deal. For users that have less than 1K reputation, it is easy to track the exact amount, and know when that amount has gone up or down. I myself am not against this result, as this moderates the users that are "downvote-happy", but if this could be changed, there may be a more stabilized amount of upvotes and downvotes.

In addition, to help this cause, I believe it would be more efficient, to not take of reputations per every downvote, but rather, have the first 10 or so downvotes free of reputation loss, and then subtract reputations after those 10 downvotes are done. These downvotes are counted daily (I'm guessing SO uses UTC time), so each day, the number of downvotes reset. For example, if one downvotes 15 people on the first day, he will not lose reputation on the first 10 downvotes the next day.

The above, I hope, will effectively encourage downvoting, but keeps people who downvote just for the fun of it away, as they will still lose reputations after the first 10.

Also, in other answers, I have seen people suggesting to reduce the number of reputations taken away from the poster. This will not work, in my opinion, because people do not choose not to downvote because of the effect on the poster, but rather the effect on themselves. The effect of losing 1 reputation point on the voter, makes them feel as if they did something wrong, and have to pay for it. This is not the way SO wants its users to feel (I hope). If a question or answer is bad/incorrect or poor in quality, people will downvote. But the only thing that prevents people from doing so is the effect on them, not the effect on the person who posted that incorrect question/answer. This effect normally takes the form of an answer, as people do not lose reputations when downvoting question.

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  • 4
    Downvoting questions does not cost rep.
    – philipxy
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 7:43
  • @philipxy Sorry, I forgot to mention that in the answer. I'll edit that in.
    – IPSDSILVA
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 15:27
  • so, to make downvoting easier, we remove the cost for the first 10 answers ppl downvote in a day. That doesn't invite downvotes on question, and that brings back the issue we had when downvotes on answers didn't cost a thing...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 15:44
  • @Patrice Sorry, but I'm not understanding what you're trying to get at. Could you clarify?
    – IPSDSILVA
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 15:47
  • 1
    @IPSDSILVA well if I get your answer here, you are proposing that the first 10 answers I downvote don't cost me rep (or I'm grossly misunderstanding you). Two concerns: a) if we're looking to encourage downvoting, making a part of it free, then the rest not won't encourage much. At best, we'll get <10 per user (and even then, only on answers). b) there is a reason for downvotes costing something when cast on answers. Changing the system brings back the issues the cost was supposed to fix (ie: people downvoting competing answers just to get better scores themselves)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 15:53
7

I just want to give some cautionary feedback as a peruser of low traffic tags and Beta sites. If the consensus here does grow to the conclusion to go on a mass witch-hunt style downvote spree, please please please take into the consideration the tag and your understanding of the topic. Those of us on the low traffic tags, who I think have made some positive contributions this site, would potentially get clobbered by this approach to 'clean up' the site. Just because there is a simple question (no code example, or familiar tech speak) on an obscure topic, doesn't mean you need to downvote it into oblivion. I know and understand that there is a lot of warranted frustration with the river of low quality content that poors in daily. But those of us on the low traffic tags/sites don't necessarily deserve the wrath from that. Just try to keep this in mind.

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    Nobody wants to go on a downvote spree, doing so would be bad! It shouldn't matter if a tag is low traffic, though. A bad question is a bad question. On the contrary, low traffic tags naturally attract less downvotes than high traffic ones because they get less views. That won't change. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 17:36
  • 7
    @ModusTollens, The only reason I posted this answer is because, from some of the comments, that's clearly what a good number of commenters want to do. I don't actually have a problem with this. I agree that the site needs more downvotes. But from the talk of badges, and people saying that they will upvote less, and increasing the potency of a downvote, I can quickly see a good number of tags getting buried by (perhaps) well-meaning downvoters. I don't even think it is that much of a stretch to see that. And that would be a shame.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 17:41
  • 11
    A good number of commenters want to go on a downvote spree? I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood. A good number of commenters here are annoyed by obvious bad posts getting upvoted due to users not knowing better or pity upvotes or a misguided sense of downvotes being "unfriendly". Or by users who do not wish to spend the downvote penalty. All they're saying is that downvotes are important, too, and sensible downvotes should be encouraged. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 17:46
  • 2
    @ModusTollens, "...sensible downvotes should be encouraged." Which is a moderate point of view I agree with entirely. This answer isn't a response to that mainstream approach. This answer is in response to the more fringe comments I've seen here, which I can see driving the content of low-traffic tags (of any and all quality) right off the site. And I'm just throwing out some cautionary consideration to be held in mind with whatever approach ever comes to fruition.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 17:50
  • 2
    I suspect though that as this answer gets itself buried by downvotes, whatever actually happens (if anything ever does happen), will: 1) Be extreme 2) Be unilaterlly implemented by StackExchange without our previous input/feedback 3) Try to be too careful not to hurt anybody's feeling and 4) Not work anyway. Oh well.... I'm starting to think I've been around this site too long.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 17:54
  • 1
    In low-traffic-tags (maybe one of a niche language or a new framework), the criteria for what is an "up/down-vote-worthy question" may indeed be vastly different than for the mainstream tags (I'm looking at you, JavaScript). There are many interdependencies, though. One of them being that using the right tags can already be a (crucial) criterion. Another one is that for "old/famous" tags, it's hard to come up with a really good question that is not a duplicate. So "consider... the tag and your understanding" is the advice that should underpin all actions anyhow.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 18:07
  • 2
    @Marco13, Well stated. Unfortunately, ""consider... the tag and your understanding"" isn't a very popular idea for this topic. Fortunately I've built up a bit of street cred, so I don't mind being one of the lone voice of caution here.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 18:34
  • 2
    As another user of low traffic tags, I support this answer 100%. Too often, questions that are perfectly clear to me have been downvoted to oblivion by drive-by downvoters who don't really known enough about the subject. Glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:26
  • @user1725145 A question that is perfectly clear to you can still be off-topic on Stack Overflow. Do you have an example of a good, on-topic question that has been downvoted to oblivion in a low-traffic (or any other) tag? Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:56
  • @ModusTollens several, but I don't feel like hunting them out just to make the point for you. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:05
  • @user1725145 This happens all the time I ask for examples of downvoted, but good and on-topic posts. Please, do feel like hunting them down for me. I want this point to be actually made for once. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:57
  • 1
    I really think we should avoid a "Show me an example" discussion here. It just diverts from the topic at hand. If you guys insist, maybe take that to chat?
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:02
  • 2
    @ModusTollens, That's fair enough. But after years of being on here, the 'example' discussion usually goes: 1) Someone digs up an example 2) Someone else says, 'I see your point on that post - I'll correct it' 3) Small speech about how that shouldn't have happened 4) It gets forgotten until the next time the topic comes up. There's nothing wrong with that process of addressing specific examples. It just seems to never actually address the underlying problem. That's what the OP's post is about. And I'm responding to an unsettling response to that I see building here. Just want to stay focused.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:12
  • 2
    @Scratte, Unfortunately, despite my being active on this site for almost a decade, including taking on moderation and maintenance actions, my rep doesn't allow me to see that post. Another topic I think needs to be addressed by StackExchange some day.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:25
  • 1
    @ouflak Well.. it was part of my point, to be honest. These examples that are usually deleted, so what's the point of asking for them if one doesn't have the ability to see them? :)
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:28
7

Displaying the button flexibly for different audiences?

Let's call Alice the downvoter and Bob the answerer who gets a downvote from Alice. Here they are:

Enter image description here

The premise here is that newcomers will automatically, unavoidably associate downvotes with having their effort being not accept by the social. I bet that anyone in here still find social rejection a pain in real life. Arguing with a behavior that is proved to be crucial to our survival in million years of evolution is unwise. Therefore:

  • We must not assume that Alice and Bob won't have this association
  • We must assume that even we say "downvotes are not about you", the fear of being rejected still overwhelm them
  • We must understand that people need detailed reasons to happily accept a rejection*
  • We must take our role to teach them to abandon this association
  • We must understand the differences between Alice and Bob's perspectives in order to teach them effectively

Here is my proposal:

  • On Alice's side, display the downvote button as text like "not useful". When she hovers it, there will be more options for her to choose: confusing/unclear, doesn't answer/miss the point, wrong, inapplicable, etc. Think of it like Facebook's reactions. She can choose to click those options, or just simply click the general button and move on.
  • In Bob's side, display the downvote as sentences: This answer seems to be confusing to one person, this answer seems to be miss the point to two persons, etc.
  • After a while of using the system, and the users have learned to de-associate the two, we can display it as arrow if we want

Bonus point:

  • People who don't downvote, but see the reasons given by other downvoters, will be nudged to help explaining the reasons clearer. (Come on, we require questions to be as clear and as detailed as possible, but yet allow votes to be ambiguious?)

Important note

This proposal doesn't mandate downvoters to provide feedback, hence this FAQ doesn't apply: Why isn't providing feedback mandatory on downvotes, and why are ideas suggesting such negatively received?

* Read How to Write Rejection Letters Which Make the Rejected Like You - Kletische

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  • It's a decent solution. However, it also requires implementing feedback that can be chosen when downvoting, so Alice can downvote and say "confusing". Unless the reasons shown to Bob are automatically picked from a pool, perhaps but that seems less useful.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05
  • 9
    I wanted to say something along these lines. As the recipient of commentless downvotes, I learn nothing. We definitely don't want to require a comment along with a downvote, as that would definitely further reduce the number of good downvotes due to the trouble (and possibly repeated comments). But if clicking downvote popped up a short list of "why" options, then the downvote is /educational/ to the recipient instead of just (potentially) insulting. If we are better educating users in how to ask good questions, that seems like a win to me. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:38
  • I'm being really picky but is it appropriate to distinguish a "down-voter" from an "answerer" by gender? What about using User A and User B?
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 11:30
  • 3
    @Lankymart using gender pronouns (he, she) is convenient. The assigned genders are arbitrary
    – Ooker
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 13:17
  • I am also not a fan of the arbitrarily and unnecessarily gendered example. But I like this proposal. Unlike many other answers here, it seriously considers the possibility that downvotes have a downside, and tries to mitigate the legitimate harm that downvotes can cause (while preserving the capacity to provide important feedback and moderation signals).
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 20:02
  • 3
    @senderle the technique to construct this answer called "steelman argument" I believe. Anyway, why do you "downvote" the idea of using genders? It brings more life to it than just A or B.
    – Ooker
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 9:47
  • @Ooker because it's not relevant to the issue, and raises associations that some people are going to find disagreeable or uncomfortable. Even if you don't see things their way, this distracts from the real point of your post, and undercuts your argument.
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 11:50
  • I think this is a fantastic idea, with the caveat that we will inevitably get people angrily commenting things like "How on earth does [downvote reason] apply to my question/answer?!!"
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Jul 13, 2020 at 12:52
  • 2
    @F1Krazy having a satisfactory explanation will always require time and effort, which the downvoters may not have. Plus that I think it's also beneficial to not require them to explain. The point here is to encourage more downvotes, not settle angry comments. (This doesn't not mean that this answer doesn't aim to solve the confusion of being downvoted. It seriously tries to.)
    – Ooker
    Commented Jul 13, 2020 at 13:04
  • 4
    This is just a thinly veiled "require comments/explanation with downvotes"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 13, 2020 at 14:37
  • This might be a better answer if it didn't try to throw yet another barrier in the way of downvoters. The idea is to encourage downvoting, not add yet another task that doesn't apply to upvoting.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 13, 2020 at 17:06
  • You are operating under the misconception that downvotes are meant to provide feedback to the poster. They are not: their purpose is to signal to everyone else (e.g., future readers) the community's opinion regarding the quality of the post. If someone wants to provide specific feedback to the poster, they can always do so in a comment. That is intentionally distinct and disconnected from votes.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 14, 2020 at 4:43
  • @CodyGray again, "we must not assume that Alice and Bob won't have this association". Even if the system doesn't slightly intend to do so, I would say not seriously consider it will fail our goal to encourage downvoting here
    – Ooker
    Commented Jul 14, 2020 at 5:30
  • 2
    Please see the FAQ on that. The problem with this proposal is that it presumes the purpose of downvotes is to give feedback to the user who posted the content. That is not the case; that's what comments are for. They're a separate mechanism. The purpose of downvotes (and upvotes) is to rank content. Your proposal here does nothing whatsoever to rank content for the benefit of other viewers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 14, 2020 at 7:39
  • 1
    @Ooker "When she hovers it, there will be more options for her to choose: confusing/unclear, doesn't answer/miss the point, wrong, inapplicable, etc." is that not mandating providing feedback? can't downvote without selecting a "reason"?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 15, 2020 at 15:39
6

Not sure why I bother adding a 30th+ answer but what's wrong with:

Discounting the reputation penalty when there's consensus. The higher the ratio of downvotes, the less reputation hit you get.

4
  • It's only -1 rep for the voter and -2 rep for the author. How do you imagine this to work?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:47
  • 1
    fractions ? I guess they could be hidden/rounded up in display.
    – Jeffrey
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:48
  • 4
    The reputation loss is already so small it goes unnoticed for the most part. Fractions would be just completely useless. I like your fresh idea though, I don't think anyone came up with this yet.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:50
  • @Jeffrey I think this won't be worth it, not only because of the mentality of fractions but also because this would cause people not to be the first to vote, as they don't want to lose the most amounts of reputations. If no one wants to be first, there won't be a first, and eventually, no downvotes at all.
    – IPSDSILVA
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 17:54
6

A downvote must be seen as some form of critique. And for critique to be constructive, an explanation about the "why" is somehow mandatory, even if I'm not saying it should be required by the system. I think it's ok as it works now.

I'm not a new user, but I feel really frustrated about a downvote without an explanation. It's not the -2 reputation points; it's just that it doesn't help me (and the future readers) unless there is something obviously wrong which I've overlooked. I want to know what's wrong and improve it. I think that's just natural.

But yeah, at the end it's up to the users to comment or not. Some may be just afraid of a discussion, even if they are right. Some may not have English as their native language, or simpler, they may just don't have time for a discussion because they are busy. I understand that (even if it hurts me :) )

Short answer: I think the current system is ok in terms of encouraging downvotes. A zero votes post, in combination with many views, also says something, IMO. Of course -1 may be more obvious sometimes. At least in the tags I'm currently in, really wrong answers, or bad questions also get a -X. But it the depends on the tags / area of Stack Overflow for sure.

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    I appreciate your answer and I like what you are saying, but I downvoted because this post does not offer a good suggestion how we can encourage downvoting. We know that it's already a problem that people expect a comment and some decide not to vote because of this, but the question is what we can do to improve this situation. There are clear cases where the downvotes are needed but for some reason the post was viewed 30 times and not a single downvote was cast.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 20:20
  • 2
    This is simply because I don't think we should encourage people to do that. :) The current situation isn't problematic enough to risk difficulties with social interactions within the community. At the end it's a trade-off, and there is a risk. I would do nothing.
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 0:35
  • 2
    @Dharman Oh, I overlooked this: You say: We know that it's already a problem that people expect a comment and some decide not to vote because of this. Are there numbers to prove this? Speaking for myself, I'm not afraid, even if I don't like it myself :P But yeah, would like to know if this is a data driven investigation result or an assumption. In the latter case, I'm not sure if it's right to assume that
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Jun 26, 2020 at 22:10
  • 2
    @Dharman “I downvoted because this post does not offer a good suggestion how we can encourage downvoting” ... This answer is merely pointing out that the original question starts from a false premise, that more down voting is necessarily a good thing.
    – Rob
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 18:29
  • 1
    Yes, false premise. Downvotes without a word of explanation may often be cast by people with less understanding than the questioner/answerer of the subtleties. How prevalent can we ever know that is? Even when multi-high-reppers downvote, that can nonetheless be the case. For the most silly type of bad questions or answers a simple link to an explanation about "what category of bad this is" would suffice. For others, at minimum a few words explaining the problem. The downvotee would then potentially have a chance to address the accusation. Downvotes with no explanation should not be possible. Commented Apr 17, 2022 at 22:18
6

If we downvote answers, we get reputation taken away from us. That discourages users from downvoting.

1
  • 10
    I agree with you, so catch my upvote, but this doesn't really add anything new to the answers. It has already been mentioned previously.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 0:30
5

[To preface my remarks, may I say that this is perhaps the most important issue to be grappled with regarding the basic functionality of Stack Overflow. It's no secret that I'm a major downvoter, not because I'm an ornery curmudgeon but because I'm devoted to rational curation of the site. My power as a downvoter, however, has visibly diminished; the increasingly poor quality of the site continues to grow exponentially, far outpacing the ability of curators to keep it clean. That is what needs to be corrected.]

Here is a set of proposals; please consider them from a distance and as a unity, but also bear in mind that they are tentative and intended as a starting point for discussion and tweaking.

  • Raise the bar to entry higher before downvoting is permitted at all. Reputation to permit voting down must be much higher — in the thousands — and the user must have earned at least a bronze badge in one of the question's tags (even if what is being downvoted is an answer). In this way we attempt to ensure both the bona fides and the qualifications of the downvoter; downvoting should require expertise.

  • Give dupehammer holders instant closure powers. This applies, obviously, to questions only. Right now, downvoting questions is often just a way of getting attention: you downvote to discourage the OP and vote to close, and hope others come along and agree. But if I am qualified to judge closure on the basis of being a duplicate, I am qualified to judge closure on the basis of the question being poor in general. How is that related to downvoting? Because it would reduce the need to downvote questions in the first place, which is how I spend most of my time on SO at the moment.

  • Redress the balance between the rep awarded to the poster for receiving upvotes and the rep subtracted from the poster for receiving downvotes. If the upvote is 10, the downvote should be -5. (This sounds dramatic, but hear me out; keep reading.)

  • Increase the penalty to the downvoter accordingly. Right now, the penalty is a mere -1, and only for answers. The penalty to the downvoter should be far greater, perhaps even the same as whatever the penalty is for the poster. The idea, obviously, is to discourage wanton downvoting and encourage thoughtful, qualified downvoting, in conjunction with the other proposed changes. Combined with the higher bar to entry, this also helps to ensure that downvoting is done only by people who can afford it.

  • The penalty to the downvoter should be retractable. This is true now, but it needs to be extended. The downvoter penalty for downvoting a question (which would exist under my proposals) should be retracted if the question is deleted, but also if it is merely closed. The downvoter penalty for downvoting an answer should be retracted if the answer is deleted, as now, but also if the question is deleted, and also if the post subsequently accumulates some threshold of downvotes, such as 3, proving that the downvote was justified and useful. The idea here is that the downvoter is lending some reputation to the effort to the curate the site, in the hope and expectation of retrieving it later when the effort succeeds.

  • Clarify the grounds for downvoting. Right now, I have a mantra that I recite to myself in judging whether a downvote is justified. This ensures that I am downvoting rationally and not because I'm bored or angry or something. This mantra does not look identical to what the site itself proposes (for instance, it is much more penetrating than the "unclear or not useful" formulation). I won't tell you exactly what it is, but in the case of questions it has to do with what I call "bad faith", and in the case of answers it has to do with either "bad faith" (e.g. plagiarism) or outright incorrectness. The site itself needs to promote right thinking in evaluation of whether to downvote.

I am not outright opposed to the proposals in some of the other questions that the faithful downvoter should be rewarded in some way, but at present I am not persuaded that that's necessary. I do not need encouragement, I need downvoting to be made more effective and rational in and of itself.

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    For the first point, what do you do if there are insufficient users with the privilege to downvote for a given tag? Some of these suggestions seem like they would effectively further discourage downvoting by making it very inaccessible.
    – GoodDeeds
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 19:46
  • 2
    While some of the points that you mentioned are certainly worth a thought (or further discussion), the connection to what you considered as the main problem isn't immediately obvious for me (and the first point, as GoodDeeds mentioned, may even be "counterproductive" in some way). Specifically, you referred to "poor quality ... outpacing the ... curators", and I doubt that (what one could somehow dismissively call) "rep-tweaking" will solve this. A -5 for the downvoted and (retractably) for the downvoter could act as some sort of "lever" here, but I wonder whether it's long enough.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 20:01
  • 1
    I am close-voter myself (rarely downvote, but also rarely upvote, except answers to my own questions). But I like your idea to prevent access to up/down-vote priviledge from newcomers. They are inexperienced and are expected to make mystakes. It doesn't matter if there are lack of those who can downvote and thousands of questions, new users should not be involved into voting until we can trust them, until they get comfortable with the system. I also like your idea of "paying" for decision and if decision was correct one - get what you have payed back. That's fair.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 13:06
  • @GoodDeeds That's just a matter of detail or degree. That is what I mean when I say my proposals are "tentative and intended as a starting point for discussion and tweaking". Perhaps the rule should be that to vote down you need either a bronze badge in the subject or a certain minimum rep. Perhaps the bronze badge idea cannot work (though I think it can, and I think it would help). That's neither here nor there, as it is all to be worked out. And please attend to the overall purpose of my suggestions; downvoting will be encouraged by making it meaningful and authoritative.
    – matt
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 15:35
  • 3
    And the user must have earned at least a bronze badge in one of the question's tags. Some questions are obviously unclear and wrong. I don't need to have a bronze badge in html to know this question is very low quality.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 16:05
  • 1
    "Reputation to permit voting down must be much higher — in the thousands — and the user must have earned at least a bronze badge in one of the question's tags" What about low traffic tags that are a benefit to the site, but might have * no * users who have that tag badge (or ever will)? Those tags get their share of crap questions as well. "But if I am qualified to judge closure on the basis of being a duplicate, I am qualified to judge closure on the basis of the question being poor in general." While I generally agree, this is not logical and not necessarily true.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 16:15
  • 1
    "If the upvote is 10, the downvote should be -5. Increase the penalty to the downvoter. The penalty to the downvoter should be far greater, perhaps the same." This has the potential to kill low traffic tags getting downvotes from people who may not understand the topic (and the actual quality of the questions/answers). It would certainly discourage people on those tags from downvoting even the most aggregious content. "The penalty to the downvoter should be retractable." I like this. The only issue with low traffic tags is that delete/closure happens slowly, if at all on these tags.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 16:21
  • 2
    If the post will end up getting deleted, closed or heavily downvoted, my downvote probably isn't necessary. If none of those apply, some others will likely disagree with my downvote and actively counter it with upvotes, meaning my downvotes have the opposite effect. So I'm already barely seeing the point of downvoting. Taking away more of my hard-earned rep as a penalty for doing it is certainly just going to make me even less likely to do it. A number of these suggestions would make people less instead of more likely to downvote. Is that intentional?
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:26
  • You miss the point. I've cast plenty of what I believe are very VALID downvotes, although many of them I've cancelled after deciding -1 rep wasn't worth it. I could care less about reputation - not granting me additional power just makes it harder for YOU. I'd like to be able to help out. But I'm not going to go out of my way to amass reputation just so I can. I did it for 125. I'm not doing it for 5k.
    – ecc521
    Commented Jun 26, 2020 at 20:23
5

It's clear that voting feels personal to many people (both vote givers and vote receivers) regardless of the intent of the voting system, which is to grade content and not people.

One approach to separate posts from users is to anonymize the posts, at least for a minimal amount of time after creation. Hide the user card on a post for perhaps an hour or a day or until it receives a vote. This would force voters to evaluate the content alone, since there is no additional information to act on.

Perhaps more importantly, this could eliminate the perception of new users who feel they are being voted on, rather than their content.

To take the thought experiment a step further, what if the only way to view the user card on a post is to vote? Could that encourage voting and eliminate the perception of bias at the same time?

In summary, since voting feels personal, and that deters many voters, let's make it unequivocally impersonal.

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  • Are you suggesting that people vote by looking at the user who posted instead of the content? Why would anyone do this?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:17
  • I'm definitely suggesting that people vote by looking at the rep of the user who posted; but I'm also suggesting that people hesitate to downvote because it feels personal, and people feel personally attacked by receiving downvotes.
    – jaco0646
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:19
  • Would new users know that they are anonymised? Would they care? Because I think that wouldn't really reduce the rate of complaints.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:39
  • 2
    @VLAZ, the anonymization would need to be blatant enough to not be overlooked (so an hour may be insufficient). But the perception of bias will exist as long as voters have both the content and the author available to act on.
    – jaco0646
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:53
  • 1
    @Dharman Revenge downvotes are real.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 0:29
4

Place a daily limit for downvoting without a penalty. Say 5. After these five votes, user can be charged a reputation of 1 or more if the limit is higher. This will encourage people to downvote, but only for useless posts.

3
  • 5
    Downvotes on questions are already free, IIRC. It's only downvotes on answers that cost rep.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:42
  • 3
    Yes, I was talking about answers Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:43
  • Yes but it's only one fake internet point, so who cares?
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jun 27, 2020 at 6:17

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