285

Yes, I'm revisiting this, again, despite the many times this issue has already been discussed (see Related for links). People keep asking for it.

Note that I'm restricting this discussion to explanations for downvotes on questions only, not answers.

The Last Serious Solution to This Problem is Lacking

This is the top-voted accepted answer to "Encouraging people to explain downvotes" (from July 4th, 2009):

The comments are there for people who want to explain their downvotes.

The only thing I can think of is an AJAX <div> reminder for users when they cast downvotes:

Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved.

After the first downvote, we can't say we didn't remind them, and honestly that's as good as it gets. Forcing a comment will end in even worse results.

This solution was okay, but it doesn't address one of the main reasons why people don't leave comments when down-voting: potential immature, petty, and misguided retaliation from the original poster, which can (at worst) take the form of online and offline harassment (and worse).

To address the issue of misguided retaliation and forced comments, I propose anonymous, optional comments.

Optional Comments Was Suggested, but Never Explicitly Turned-Down

The second highest-voted answer to "Encouraging people to explain downvotes" (from July 28th, 2009) actually does propose an optional comments mechanism, by which the original poster can review and gain more explicit feedback about the quality of his or her post:

+1 concise
+1 insightful
-1 i hate python
-1 confusing

I think this feedback mechanism could be helpful, but only if it remains anonymous to the original poster. Then people can continue to freely downvote without having to worry about petty retaliatory harrasment (and other misguided things).

I also propose that moderators, and only moderators, have access to the record of who left which explanation, i.e. explanations are NOT anonymous to moderators. This is to help resolve instances of abuse of custom reasons (see more in Mockup).

Anonymous, Optional Comments Mockup

Here is a mockup. On every question, add an "explain" link, as shown:

Explain link

For people downvoting, this would bring up a dialog with some pre-made reasons for why people would downvote a question:

Reason dialog

Some of these pre-made reasons come from the help center. If you think reasons should be added or removed, please explain in a comment or an answer.

There is also an option to leave a custom reason.

For the original poster, clicking the "explain" link will bring up another dialog, or take them to another page, which has a table with all of the (anonymous) explanations for downvotes, as well as the number of people who voted based on each reason:

Reason table

The original poster has the option to flag custom reasons for moderator attention (much like as with comments) if, for example, the custom reason is rude/offensive, or contains garbage like "laskjfaoigaefj".

Since users won't be anonymous to moderators, users who abuse the custom reason option can be banned from using the optional explanation feature altogether (much like a review ban), or perhaps even be suspended for egregious abuses.

Options for Experimentation

  1. Perhaps as a test of this feature, the custom reason can be left out, and if the new feedback system demonstrates itself to be good, the custom reason feature can be implemented later.

  2. Instead of only giving downvoters only one choice for a downvote reason (via radio buttons), make it an option to leave multiple reasons for a downvote (via checkboxes). When I downvote a question, it's often because of multiple issues, not just a single one.

What Do You Think?

Thoughts? Is this a good idea? A bad idea?

Related

  1. Encouraging people to explain downvotes.
  2. Allow users to leave an anonymous comment when voting.
  3. @Downvoter sends a notification to all downvoters for your post.
  4. Is asking reasons for downvote in comments non-constructive?.
  5. Require to leave a comment explaining reasoning for downvote.
  6. Make commenting obligatory for the first downvote on a question.
  7. Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?.
  8. A suggestion to the “Downvote and go” thing that that turn off new users (requires 10k rep privileges to read).
  9. Should downvote-without-comment rate remain unpublished?.
  10. Getting to Know Stack Overflow's Voting Culture.
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  • 9
    I don't hate this, but isn't it largely covered already by the current close reasons (which already are supposed to be an explanation of what's wrong)? It seems to almost do what you are suggesting, with the exception of anonymous comments.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 19:49
  • 13
    @Pekka웃 not all bad questions get closed. In fact, some are even upvoted to a net-positive score!
    – user456814
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 19:57
  • 3
    @TheQZ not going to lie, I'm having a hard time coming up with a counter-argument against your very good point. But then we're just stuck. Users frequently ask for more explanations and feedback regarding downvotes, which other users frequently won't give to them because (1) anonymity protects downvoters, enabling them to vote more freely and accurately, and (2) giving explanations for every downvote takes additional time and energy. So I'm not sure what to do :/ Is it just not possible to have both?
    – user456814
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 20:11
  • 7
    @TheQZ keep in mind, however, that the comment system I propose isn't 100% anonymous. Moderators still have access to who leaves custom downvote reasons, so it's not like there's no consequences for abusing the feature.
    – user456814
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 20:21
  • 1
    @Mat alright, well then what about leaving out the custom reasons, and only making the pre-made reasons available, as I suggested under "Experimentation"?
    – user456814
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 20:26
  • 2
    I guess this would be useful to pinpoint exactly which part of "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful" I really want to drive home? Meh.
    – roippi
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 20:48
  • 2
    -1 for "one of the main reasons why people don't leave comments when down-voting: immature, petty, and misguided retaliation". +2 for those nice mockups.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 20:50
  • 1
    @bjb568 I meant that the people who are being downvoted could potentially be immature and petty. It's teh Internet. That's like a given.
    – user456814
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 22:26
  • 6
    @gunr2171 the issue is more about feedback regarding downvotes on questions. In particular, the feature I propose provides immediate feedback. Voting to close doesn't provide feedback until the question is actually closed, which often doesn't actually happen, and if it actually does, it's often after a relatively long period of time.
    – user456814
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 23:51
  • 1
    @gunr2171 you're asking for more effective question closing. That's quite a big issue all on its own. Anyways, not all questions will be closed, so they will have no feedback for downvotes that way.
    – user456814
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 0:01
  • 3
    Recently, there was a discussion about what to do when you do provide a downvote comment and are then attacked by the asker. I've seen this a lot, and is why I almost never actually mention downvoting when also happening to downvote and comment. We really are damned if we do and damned if we don't. I'm not sure if the canned response form would be helpful here...
    – Charles
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 2:01
  • 16
    @Ben the explanations are optional! If you don't want to leave an explanation, the number of additional clicks is 0!
    – user456814
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 7:49
  • 3
    This is the eternal dilemma distinguishing between who's a genuine ignorant (or somewhat lacks acumen) and who's spamming/being too lazy/exploiting and taking advantage of others.Teachers and professors are facing this all the time although they have an advantage: they get to know their students and they can be screwed once, hardly twice. On SO you don't know who's behind the question and thus you can't know if he's genuinely a newbie/not an internet expert user or if he is a lazy guy posting junk because he doesn't want to spend 10 minutes of his time reading the FAQ or doing his homework
    – Marco A.
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 9:50
  • 5
    Have you considered the solution that involves saying "no"? That's the best one I've come up with. If you're judging what's a good idea based on frequency of request, your next proposal will be a way of contacting individual users. :-(
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 10, 2014 at 2:39
  • 18
    You've made this too complicated. All you really need is a dialog that pops up with a single textbox when the downvote button is clicked, allowing the user to put in an optional explanation for the downvote. The system would then post a comment attributed to the Community User.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 17:20

9 Answers 9

74

I'm also one of those who are worried by downvoting newbies. I have currently 140K points and I'm pretty sure if my first questions were downvoted, I would have left SO to never return. It's one of the reasons why I stay away from Meta - the process here (and the level of harassment/mobbing I feel when I post here) are simply prohibitive for me to participate.

At the same time, I'm worried about anonymous abuse of such an option. But when I read

This is the eternal dilemma distinguishing between who's a genuine ignorant (or somewhat lacks acumen) and who's spamming/being too lazy/exploiting and taking advantage of others.

in the comments, I started wondering how much we (don't) know. SO knows a lot about its users. Not the newbies (but they can't up/downvote anyway). So what I would like to see is an analysis how many people are downvoted and how many of those never return. A full-text analysis might even allow to identify people who simply create a new account when the first one accumulated too much "bad karma".

On the downvoter side, I want to know if there are people who simply mass-downvote for fun. So maybe a system like the "you didn't vote for a question for some time" might help: If you downvote very often, the system should a) ask you to keep it in check or b) show some of the downvotes to other users (randomly selected) to see how much they digress from the average. If too many disagree, we can either reduce the number of downvotes such people get or get in contact with them.

Note: While I feel that many newbies don't spend much/enough time writing their question, that's my limited view. Bad questions have many reasons but here are two related proverbs:

  • He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who doesn't ask a question dies a fool.
  • There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

I feel that being able to ask good questions is one of the most important tools for a software developer. I also notice that even seasoned warriors often lack this skill. A simple "you bad" doesn't improve the situation. Those people need to know specifically how to improve.

That's why I feel bad about the current system. Downvoting without giving a reason, especially for newcomers, feels wrong on too many levels.

If you have a good reason for the downvote, there should be no reason not to share it. Helping people improve is another skill which is very useful. And if you don't have a good reason (Didn't understand the question? Hate people who struggle with the English grammar?), you shouldn't be allowed to downvote.

...

P.S. I hesitate to post this because I worry how many downvotes it will get me :-( Is that a good thing?

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  • 18
    You need not worry about downvotes on the new Meta, since they don't affect reputation anymore :) It has been mentioned by some moderator (I think) that people tend to upvote way more often than they downvote...meaning that people don't downvote enough. It's one of the reasons why downvotes became "free", instead of incurring rep loss for the downvoter (in the case of downvoting answers), and even then I've heard that people don't downvote as often as they upvote.
    – user456814
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 8:33
  • 8
    I don't see how few downvotes could mean "they don't downvote enough". I feel that means that people prefer to improve a situation over mindless mobbing. Commented May 7, 2014 at 8:46
  • 19
    I prefer posting a comment instead of downvoting. Commented May 8, 2014 at 20:20
  • 13
    Sorry but you seem to take this entirely too emotional. Downvotes are "mindless mobbing", downvoters need to be kept in check, number of downvotes should be reduced, because some people could feel bad? A downvote is the most direct form of feedback - "your post is bad". People need to understand it's not a personal attack! I'd personally feel way worse about reinforcing people who ask bad questions by answering without giving any indication that (and by all means why) the question is lacking. Also, there are of course stupid questions in the context of SO, e.g. everything that's far off topic.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 10, 2014 at 11:59
  • 2
    If however someone abuses the downvote system, we have tools in place to handle it (e.g. serial vote reversing). Of course I don't condone downvoting because of things irrelevant to question quality, but I also don't see this being a problem. I can easily run out of my daily votes just by browsing new python and java questions and downvoting anyone who obviously didn't google the name of whatever exception is thrown by their code. I'd still run out of votes restricting myself to the most common exceptions. Do you suggest I stop downvoting these and thus passively reinforce this behaviour?
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 10, 2014 at 12:07
  • 24
    @l4mpi: As I explained in my question, people don't learn how to ask good questions by some magical spell. They need to be told. Downvoting is just a cheap way to say "bad dog, down." It doesn't "actively reinforce good behavior." If these people would know better, the question wouldn't be bad in the first place. On top of that: How often have you been in a situation where someone expected something from you and you didn't know what? Did you feel that was a good or a bad situation? Commented May 12, 2014 at 8:19
  • 8
    Correct, people learn how to ask good questions by investing time and effort into learning how to ask good questions. People do NOT learn how to ask good questions when their bad questions are answered without even giving any indication that and why their question is lacking - after all, why should they seek to change or improve anything if asking bad questions works just as well? I doubt many askers are even interested in asking good questions as long as they get answers. And to be clear, I do try to educate OP by commenting or upvoting existing comments on all my down/closevotes.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 8:39
  • 12
    I've been coding for 30+ years now, some of it good, some of it bad. When I reflect on my overall career I have been told a number of times by various mentors to RTFM(Read The Flippin' Manual) but they almost always told me which manual. In peer reviews when people don't like or agree with something I've done they tell me why.
    – TJA
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 7:33
  • 2
    @TJA Or LMGTFY but with an appropriate search term.
    – ClickRick
    Commented May 24, 2014 at 7:25
  • 6
    @AaronDigulla: There are entire pages in the help center devoted to "how to ask a better question", along with other information in the tour pages and here, and further handholding by commenting and babying people isn't going to make things better. If you insist on commenting to try to "urge better questions", link instead to one of the existing articles that contains all of that information and vote to close the question until they've edited to improve it. Questions can be re-opened easily once they've been edited.
    – Ken White
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 22:23
  • 5
    @AaronDigulla Correct, you end up chasing away newcomers and worse, they leave without ever knowing what the needed to do.
    – FMS
    Commented Aug 13, 2014 at 19:16
  • 5
    To this I would like to add the situation when a question with already low visibility, in an area where there are very few questions/answers or documentation, gets downvoted by people who don't understand the contents (which is likely when they downvote without an explanation)... and gets even lower visibility !
    – Thalia
    Commented Dec 22, 2014 at 22:20
  • 4
    I'm totally agree with this and here is my profile, I didn't made my courage to post a second question after get such mass down voting without any explanations. Commented Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05
  • It's weird when you get 4 downvotes in less than 15 minutes, when historically you rarely gets a downvote, specially in answers were you explained your solution. I can't tell if someone is just a troll and decided to downvote all at once, or if they really think my 4 answers should be downvoted. So I really think a dialog with pre-made options to explain a downvote (optional) would be nice. Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 4:17
60

I'm pretty negative about this whole idea because of the opportunity for abuse. Any time we have to put our elected moderator team as the sole barrier between someone and widespread, unchecked abuse, we put a bit more strain on a system that relies heavily on distributed moderation.

But there's another part that concerns me as well... I'm not convinced that the solution to folks prone to lash out at criticism is a system that gives them a nice soft punching bag. It turns out catharsis doesn't actually work...

Lemme tell you a story.

Years ago, I ran into a guy on Stack Overflow who was climbing through the ranks of answerers at an impressive rate. Unfortunately, he was doing so based on very large numbers of answers that were, frankly, quite lazy: google search results, code without explanation, etc.

As we were both active in some of the same tags, I tended to run across his answers just about every day for a while - and most of the time, I'd end up downvoting them, for the simple reason that there'd be another answer on the question that did try to explain the solution presented. Sometimes, I'd leave a comment pointing out areas for improvement...

And I noticed something: when I commented, he'd argue about the downvote. When I didn't, he'd either put some more work into the answer or just delete it.

The arguing sucked. But what solidified my resolve to stop commenting on his posts wasn't the arguing - it was that I got better results when I didn't comment!

Over the years, I've observed this pattern again and again: folks ignoring or becoming angry at specific critiques, but putting significant effort in when they had to look to themselves to determine the areas for improvement.

Now, this is clearly not true in every case - some folks are just so lost that they need something to guide them if they're ever to have any hope of finding their way. And in many cases, specific technical critiques are invaluable, both to the author and to future readers because they simply wouldn't be known otherwise.

...But do I think it's worth remembering that comments are not a panacea for folks complaining about downvotes. Sometimes, the only solution is for the author to take a good hard look at their own work and then listen to the criticisms of the one person they actually respect.

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  • 21
    Good insight, however, your example doesn't take into account the possibility of anonymous feedback. If there's no one to argue with, it's much less likely that someone will argue (although, not impossible :)
    – Trevor
    Commented Jul 17, 2014 at 20:22
  • 3
    Anonymity doesn't mean there's no one to argue with I'm afraid, @threed - it just means you can't follow them around arguing. Which is a small benefit to be sure, but... There's an old proverb about treating folks like children & getting back what you expect that probably applies here: if we engineer the software to cater to the behaviors of our worst users, we'll just end up with more like them.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 17, 2014 at 21:38
  • 7
    Good point--we shouldn't avoid adding anonymous feedback to down votes simply because "our worst users" won't like it; we should probably cater to our better users, who will use the feedback to improve the site, and at the same time, protect those users who provide that feedback.
    – Trevor
    Commented Jul 18, 2014 at 22:34
  • @Shog9 Thank you for the example. Aha! consideration of human nature/behavior factors in ...
    – FMS
    Commented Aug 13, 2014 at 19:13
  • 10
    I don't feel your argument is compelling. 1. I haven't seen such a pattern, yet and I comment my downvotes all the time. So maybe I haven't run into someone who fits your pattern or maybe your comments could have been different. 2. Even if this pattern applies to some people (how many?): What about the rest? What about the newcomers who desperately want (to) help but know so little, they don't even know where to start? Should we appear friendly or hostile towards them? And what behavior will make us appear the way we want? Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 7:48
  • 2
    You should (and I suspect do, perhaps without realizing it) decide whether to comment based on the context, @Aaron. Same goes for downvotes. Some situations may require one, some the other, some both - worth noting that your profile indicates you've left many, many times more comments than you have downvotes; perhaps you prefer to focus on situations where you can offer advice rather than rating? As for newcomers, I often leave comments on new user posts - and I've no wish to hide behind anonymity when welcoming someone to our site either.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 14:06
  • 4
    Nice anecdote, but given that this guy was "climbing through the ranks", he's nothing like the typical user that this suggestion addresses. He sounds much more sophisticated - he didn't need reasons to know why he did something bad - he already knew that, and knew he was being lazy. Downvotes called him on it, and without a user to rail against, he was forced to improve his answers. The biggest issue here is bad questions, not bad answers (they'll take care of themselves). So many of the new users just don't know the etiquette or expectations here. This could help them.
    – Gerrat
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 14:34
  • 9
    Questions are already more likely to get a comment than they are a downvote, @Gerrat. Heck, the vast majority of those that do get downvoted also get at least one comment. The proposal here suggests that folks would leave more comments if they didn't have to attach their names to them, which is probably true - and, I argue, not a good thing: if you've reason to believe your comment won't do any good, then the solution is to not waste your time writing it - chances are, you're probably right. My anecdote hints at one reason for this, but there are plenty of them.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:45
  • Hi Shog, if this is basically [status:declined], can you add that tag to the request please? Just take off [voting] to make room.
    – user456814
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 3:30
  • 2
    @Shog9 - I've commented on another page on this, and I'm certainly not looking for an argument, just a vindication of the current "no news is bad news" policy on SO. A simple example of how things can go wrong: There can be no exact all encompassing "line" at which ServerFault ends and SuperUser begins. So let's say someone posts a valid well researched an thought through question, but certain people feel it is more appropriate to the other site based on their subjective "line". How is the asker meant to understand this without comment?
    – Pancho
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 13:32
  • 1
    In my experience, people who upvote very often do so on the most basic trivial answers, whereas more sophisticated answers receive far less. This indicates, at least to me, that many (of course not all) SO users have less sophisticated requirements. Also, often, negative responses I see from users to questions, indicate clearly that the commenter has little insight into the context in which the question is being asked. Here, as the reader, I have the opportunity to go - well that comment is a bit dense, I'll ignore it. But then these same people are able to downvote ...silently. Scary.
    – Pancho
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 13:38
  • 1
    Also, it seems to me that your premise is based on "argumentative behaviour" by people being commented on. My take is that people who attempt to justify their position with little merit are very easily identified. Secondly it is entirely possible that you missed the gist of the question and that their response in fact has merit, and possibly a minor edit may clarify the question more fully. Either way, it is not necessary to get into an argument, particularly if your comment is anonymous. You have downvoted and had your input - and even if wrongly, at least readers can form their own opinion.
    – Pancho
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 13:46
  • 1
    Further, SO should not be preventing the potential very great benefit of (optionally anonymous) downvote comments based on the concern of "argumentative behaviour" - what it should be doing is accepting the need, and looking for ways to manage the behaviour. The only other feasible alternative in my book is removing downvotes altogether allowing well received questions / answers to bubble to the top naturally.
    – Pancho
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 13:55
  • And finally, to all the anonymous downvoters out there: I am of strongly the opinion that it is simply lazy and selfish not to comment. If one has time to read a question feel strongly enough to downvote, then have the courtesy to say why. Gravitating to the lowest common denominator should not be something the SO community aspires to.
    – Pancho
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 13:56
  • That the user argued back when I commented on why I downvoted happened to me too, and I agree it's annoying. I once downvoted an answer to question that had nothing to do with programming, and commented to explain that such questions shouldn't be answered. The user who posted the answer replied to my comment saying I shouldn't bump posts for nothing (even though I didn't bump anything, I just downvoted and commented). In that case it didn't matter because both the question and the answer were unsalvageable, but I see why it's not always a good idea to comment explaining downvotes. Commented Nov 6, 2017 at 16:39
29

Yes.

I just asked my first question, one which I think I organized well and demonstrated sufficient effort to research/answer/understand myself. It was immediately down-voted without comment. I have no idea what I did wrong, and so I'll surely do it again. This helps no one.

8
  • 10
    You're right in observing that downvotes are not an educational tool—this is what comments are for. Upvotes are not an educational tool either, mind you. They don't tell you if someone upvoted your question because they're having the same problem, thought it was clear and useful, or because they thought it was nicely formatted. Voting—whether up or down—serves simply as the means by which we rate content. Questions are downvoted as if to say "this one isn't particularly interesting or useful, move along". Upvotes mean just the opposite. Comments are rightly disconnected from votes.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:46
  • 12
    Here's the problem: "down-votes are not an educational tool" is another way of saying "down-votes are completely useless." Comments can be used to "rate content" or say "this one isn't particularly interesting or useful, move along" AND explain why. The problem is that a down-vote only helps readers. My question being down-voted helped readers not waste time on it (assuming for the sake of argument it actually deserved the down-vote). If the person had commented on what was lacking about it, that would've helped both readers and the author. Can't imagine how that isn't better.
    – Lee Saxon
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 14:30
  • 7
    How do you figure it's a way of saying that? Comments are for dialog, votes are for rating. There's no reason to have a dialog in a rating system—in fact, it's actively harmful. If you explain why, people get all worked up about it, and you start having a debate in the comments section. It's much easier to just vote and get on with your life. Downvotes are only supposed to help readers. They're not intended to help the poster. Certainly you can do both downvoting and posting a comment. I often will. But they serve different purposes and should be disconnected.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 23:14
  • 3
    I think perspective is key here. As someone looking at downvotes as taking away rep, they seem like nasty, mean things, that should be explained. However, the SE perspective is that it's merely an indication that the question/answer should be less visible, whether that be just lower on the page or hidden outright. The fact that downvotes effect rep is only there to encourage users to write content that is worthy of being shown. Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 19:35
  • @JosephLeeSaxon note that the net effect of that question was one downvote one upvote and an answer. so you gained 3 points and a good answer ( which has not been upvoted or accepted )
    – amdixon
    Commented Oct 31, 2015 at 11:25
  • 3
    @codyGray - I completely get what you're saying about separation and in a way I buy it. The challenge for me is there can be no level of certainty in the current system that the person doing the downvote has an IQ higher than a gibbon. Downvoting through incorrect interpretation or ignorance is detrimental to readers (and of course confusing for posters). The ONLY measure either readers or posters have of the veracity of downvotes is the comment. And both are currently being denied visibility of this. Surely this must be considered sub-optimal.
    – Pancho
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 16:37
  • 1
    It is equally suboptimal that the people doing the upvoting may have an IQ no higher than a gibbon. What do you propose to do about that, @Pancho?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 27, 2020 at 3:26
  • @CodyGray - I have no issue with upvote comments. In fact requiring comment and enhancing the UI to allow display/hiding of upvote/downvote comments could be an option as readers can "see what they want". However, certainly in my experience, upvoting is usually based on successful implementation of an answer, making the likelihood of at least partial validity far higher than downvotes - which have no success criteria increasing the risk of gibbon. My baseline perspective is that information is useful - no information is not; and renders assessing the gibbon factor impossible.
    – Pancho
    Commented Jul 27, 2020 at 11:00
-2

This is now partially served by http://idownvotedbecau.se/, which has good explanations of common downvote reasons, such as:

  • No evidence of a prior attempt
  • No evidence of prior research
  • No code in a debugging question
  • Vague problem statement ("it's not working")
  • Images of code or exceptions
  • Wall of code
  • No effort to debug
  • Being unclear
  • Not responding to comments
  • Etc.

The articles explain why this is a problem, suggestions on how to fix the issue, etc.

I'd be in favor of having a user script or something to post explanations based on this.

-6

I was in the middle of suggesting this for answers and questions, and this great question is appeared in the Similar Questions part. (you presented the suggestion perfectly)

definitely agree with your suggestion with the extent to answers also.


What is our (perfect) goal ?

to have a future big library of quality contents while everyone here is happy (who asks and who answers)

current problem:

Downvotes hurt. (specially anonymous ones without an obvious reason).

..and if you are having great contributors who are giving their time, effort and experience, for nothing in return, but to help us and our children, and they still having bad experiences like this one and this one, then you really have a problem in your model that you need to solve 👎.

but anonymous downvotes are useful because

  1. they help identifying good from bad content.
  2. they help improving the content by motivating the post owner.
  3. it's anonymity nature is cool too and protects the downvoter.

The suggested feature (concrete reason for downvote) will do

  1. it will reduce our problem by letting the post owner knows the reasons he got a downvote for (at least from the downvoter point of view), better than leaving him confused.
  2. it still protects the anonymity of the downvoter.
  3. it will make the post owner focuses on the specific problem in his post and will help the reader to quickly realize why this post is bad. (Bad because ... is bettrer than Bad.)
5
  • So...a user with almost 800k has a bad experience with anonymous downvotes? And it entirely negates the presumably, "good" experience received from the countless upvotes they received? That seems incredibly lopsided.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 8, 2019 at 13:43
  • @fbueckert Upvotes are not a good experience, but downvotes without a reason is a bad experience. Commented Apr 8, 2019 at 15:14
  • If downvotes are a bad experience, the reverse also has to be true. The premise doesn't work otherwise. Comments are irrelevant to that position.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 8, 2019 at 15:15
  • @fbueckert let me rephrase my last comment, "upvotes are good experience if the content deserves, but downvotes without a reason is always a bad experience." Commented Apr 8, 2019 at 15:33
  • 1
    There is always a reason; check the arrow tooltips. Your premise is predicated on that upvotes reinforce inherent value, while downvotes must be justified to devalue that inherent value, along with user experience being valued above that of content quality. That is flawed; no content has inherent value beyond what voters deem it has, and user experience is orthogonal to curating content.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 8, 2019 at 15:39
-9

I think this is an excellent idea, (I found it while researching for existing posts before suggesting exactly that,) and I would like to see it also apply to downvotes to answers.

From the users' point of view, it will help people to better understand what they are doing wrong. Downvotes without a reason are ruining the stackoverflow experience for everyone. Close votes are not a solution, because many questions are not so bad as to be closed, and yet they are bad enough to be downvoted. Also, closing does not apply to answers.

Ready-made reasons-for-downvote that I can think off the top of my head that would be extremely useful both for those who post questions, and for those who answer:

-1 Can be trivially answered by googling / reading the documentation.

-1 Can be trivially answered by rubber-duck debugging.

-1 Shows no research effort.

-1 You cannot learn a programming language one stackoverflow question at a time.

-1 Mentions "gives me an error" but does not say which fucking error.

-1 Badly formatted / written in all caps / too wasteful with the blank lines.

-1 Too much irrelevant code / no effort was made to abstract away irrelevant concepts.

-1 Is obviously homework but is pretending that it is not homework.

-1 Identifiers are in a language other than English.

-1 Should be an MCVE

-1 Crucial code missing. (So, of what type is that variable that you are having so much trouble with?)

From the site's point of view, in the eternal quest to better understand how the users think, the more information the better, right?

For the author of any given question or answer, the table of downvote-counts and explanations will be so useful that it could even be permanently expanded, in-your-face, instead of hidden behind some "Explain" link. The "Explain" link could be useful for people other than the author of the post.

As for the answers, I am envisioning a list of ready-made reasons for a downvote which would include such obvious things as "It is just plain wrong" but also tricky answers such as "I disagree", which, if chosen, would cause a message to appear saying "Disagreeing is not a reason for a downvote, you fool!" C-:=

3
  • Why don't you just leave a comment if you think a post can be improved? Or better yet, edit it!
    – user4639281
    Commented Apr 16, 2017 at 15:51
  • 1
    @TinyGiant because the OP seems to be taking pains to explicitly specify that he is talking about downvote comments on questions only, while I am proposing downvote comments on answers, too.
    – Mike Nakis
    Commented Apr 16, 2017 at 16:41
  • 1
    @TinyGiant Many people don't leave a comment and just downvote and walk away. It would be better to make a comment mandatory to leave a reason Commented Jul 17, 2019 at 4:02
-12

Requiring, or even encouraging, comments for downvotes, is incompatible with the "be nice" policy. A downvote is not like a close vote. A downvote is the only permitted means for indicating that s question or answer sucks (rather than being merely incomplete or misdirected). Any accurate comment will essentially state "your question sucks, and by implication you do too". And, despite the "be nice" policy, we need to be able to indicate that s post sucks, as part of quality control.

Comments for downvotes increases the effort demanded or expected of those who work to improve the quality of the site. They are few, and overworked. We have no shortage of people posting crap questions. In most cases, those crap questions are unsalvageable. It's not that, with a bit more feedback, the asker could edit their question into an acceptable question. The overwhelming majority of questions I down vote are lazy homework dumps and no effort "debug me" questions.

4
  • 6
    First of all, this is an old declined feature request that really didn't need another answer next to the 10 already on here. That said, this answer is incorrect. It's quite possible to explain a downvote without violating the "Be nice" policy, as shown in this very comment.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 6, 2017 at 12:59
  • 1
    @Cerebus votes on Meta are different. As for this being declined; it has returned again. The other requests should be closed as duplicates of this. I'm posting another reason to decline the request. You disagree with it.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 6, 2017 at 13:03
  • 1
    We actually have a new canonical dupe target for questions like this. My reasoning also applies to main. It's perfectly possible to be nice while explaining a downvote, there.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 6, 2017 at 13:05
  • Thanks for the dupe target.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 6, 2017 at 13:05
-15

I agree with this proposal. In fact I was just about to submit a similar proposal and I searched for potential duplicates. But my idea was to make the reason required: when you downvote, it would open a box with set of default choices or you could enter your custom comment. Anyone can then see a table with downvote reasons and their score. Of course all information must remain anonymous.

Such proposal would improve SO because it gives very concrete feedback to OP, where downvoters feel the issue with the question. Currently downvotes may be understood as "community does not like me here". If OP can see what exactly is the problem he can learn much faster.

PS. I expect downvotes and I will not know if it is because of disagreement or because I am not native speaker and there are grammar mistakes.

6
  • 2
    I'm downvoting because of disagreement, not grammar (I'm personally not downvoting for grammar anymore). Your grammar is pretty good, by the way ;) However, your proposal for required reasons for downvotes has already been asked before, and was declined. See also this answer.
    – user456814
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 19:48
  • 24
    I'd like to note that this hasn't been declined just once. It's been declined dozens of times...This is the epitome of the cliched repeatedly suggested terrible suggestion.
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 20:10
  • 4
    @Leos Literak Your comments are spot-on. I'm currently going through a round of anonymous, reasonless down votes on another stack site. As a newbie there, there isn't much I can do besides learn a new set of -secret- rules to go by. The fact that it is so easy to chip away at another members reputation is bothersome. They've actually streamlined the process. At least in a court of law one is allowed to confront their accuser. Did Kafka help design Stack?
    – blackappy
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 3:35
  • 4
    I genuinely try to contribute to communities like SO. Getting hit with an unexplained downvote just makes me sad.
    – TJA
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 3:25
  • 4
    Another excellent answer was torpedoed that would fix the fundamentally flawed downvoting system. Can I just say SIGH? Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 18:52
  • 2
    You can just upvote @FinalContest ;)
    – Bart
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 18:54
-26

Anonymous downvotes are excellent for alienating new users, and the people with a lot of rep around here purposely use them for this reason a lot. If you required them to at least leave an anonymous comment on their downvote, it would sway some people who are downvoting for illegitimate reasons (a lot of people) and would provide, particularly new users, with direct advice on how to better formulate future questions. Because let's be honest, the rules come down to the interpretation of the people with the most rep, they're nearly meaningless when a new users tries to ask something.

41
  • 12
    Stop thinking people use them TO alienate new users, they are to keep quality of the site up, NOTHING ELSE. Show me a GOOD question by a new user that is downvoted "for no reason" and we'll talk. Show me these "illegitimate reasons" you talk of. I've honestly not seen it. Everytime someone brings similar feedback, they can't find examples, so the problem isn't there as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to change my mind, if there is evidence to it.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 18:26
  • Well I just had one of your mods/users admit he was repeatedly editing my post without having read it once (out of spite) and then he deleted his comment. I don't know where you got the idea that every person who uses this website is some sort of Saint, but they're not. Also it can be difficult to show you a thread like that since users don't have to provide a reason to bury a question, how would we know if the reasons are legitimate or not?
    – user2442107
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 18:45
  • 1
    Is this what I said? I said that new guys come in and take downvotes personally without realising they are for the quality of the site. I then asked examples of wrongly downvoted questions, which you've failed to provide. For repeated edits, if you get into a rollback war, a mod will be notified and come in and lock the post. So there are contingencies for truly malicious users (serial voting reversal, rollback locks, etc). There are malicoous ppl yes, but way more new users who don't understand the site and then get angry at downvotes. Again, show me a good post that's downvoted....
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 18:49
  • 1
    And btw, it is possible to find. Look at downvoted questions from new users. Find one that respect the guidelines and rules, and is still downvoted. Not saying it's EASY, but burden of proof is on you, not us
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 18:54
  • 2
    "downvotes are taken so damn personal..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 19:21
  • @Yelnik The mod didn't have to read the post, his edit had nothing to do with the topic, he was just removing content that didn't add to the question. Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 19:22
  • 4
    @Yelnik It's common on the site to remove content such as "Please help!" or "Thank you everyone for all the answers!". Many people in the community try to keep the questions simple and focused, and that doesn't require reading through the rest of the question. Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 19:33
  • 3
    @Yelnik yeah, there is likely some confirmation bias here. But you need to understand that, without SEEING A PROBLEM, it's hard to FIND A SOLUTION. Honestly, whenever a new user comes in complaining about the system, we ask for proof. What I've seen on meta so far is people complaining "BUT I GET DOWNVOTED" and then someone checks the question and goes "hmmm, but this is off-topic". Again, I'm happy to change my mind. I just lack the data to change my mind. I am the first one to say Stack is rough for newbies (check on meta, it's a statement I make relatively often). I also am the first (cont)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:00
  • 2
    side question then: What is the goal of Stack Overflow, in your mind? Because a big part of how voting works is related to this...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:20
  • 2
    I've been using this site for several years now, and have very little reputation, and that's mainly because there aren't any questions for me to ask, once I boil my problem down to the real issue, someone already asked it five years ago and I find my solution. But if I ever found a real problem that no one asked, I'm confident it'd get the attention and votes it deserves. Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:22
  • 1
    yes, but through establishing a good knowledge base of data. The voting system is built with that in mind. You don't need to explain every single vote. The voting is built so we can, at a glance, see if the answer (question) is of worth. Comments on every single downvotes we cast becomes WAY too much, and unscalable, when the amount of pure crap questions thrown on stack is increased by people believing we're a help desk, and users who don't care for the wellfare of this site and just want their bad question answered no matter what.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:23
  • 3
    okay. Now let me throw a hypothetical at you: You're quality driven on this site, you downvote and comment EVERY downvote. You then get called a Nazi, an asshole, a dick who just wants to walk over people. You get told "fuck off" on a daily basis, get a TON of revenge downvotes. See a lot of argumentation, and maybe 10% of people willing to improve. After a year of that.... How do you now feel after downvoting? I'm not saying we couldn't make better. I'm saying with the new user base we have, commenting everything isn't any more proper. I got told by a user (I am not even paraphrasing)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:34
  • 3
    "I don't give a shit about your website's quality. Just help me out, or fuck off!". After several messages like that, you grow jaded. Anyway, since THAT is a big portion of new users, you can't force people to comment on these pure crap questions, and then get into stupid fights about it. When I believe someone is genuinely trying to understand and get a grasp of Stack, I'll comment as long as needed.... I just don't believe I should be forced to do so on every thread I downvote. If every new user was willing to improve, YES. That is SO FAR from the case though...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:35
  • 7
    it would sway some people who are downvoting for illegitimate reasons - Putting aside whether people do this (or how many), why do you think this would work? If the people down voting are doing so maliciously, why would commenting prevent this? There'd be nothing to force them to be honest about their down vote so why wouldn't malicious people keep being malicious?
    – BSMP
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:49
  • 1
    my main problem is you'll alienate those who DO vote rightfully for the minority who don't. Your example isn't like the safe injection sites for addict, it's similar to installing an alco-test in EVERY car for the minority of drunk drivers. (however alco-test is properly written in English :P)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 8, 2016 at 20:52