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Yes, it's another meta question about the "Stack Overflow isn't very welcoming" blog post.

As someone who has been on this site for almost a decade, who has tried to post good questions, who has voted on content, who has worked the queues, all in the name of keeping the site's quality up... Jay Hanlon's post is an affront.

It tars me, and everyone who has ever used the privileges gained via rep they worked hard for, as Bad People, as enemies of the site; while portraying the endless hordes that only care about "gimme teh codez" as innocent victims. That's not acceptable.

I have never discriminated against anyone based on their age, skin colour, gender, accent, or whatever. I have discriminated against those who show no desire to make an effort to think, or read basic "how to ask" pages, or who just don't care. And I will continue to discriminate against those people.

If that makes me wrong, or evil, or unworthy in Jay Hanlon's eyes... I honestly don't care. What I do care about is that by allowing the blog post to go up, Stack Overflow is endorsing his offensive point of view. That's not acceptable.

Stack Overflow the site, and programming in general, is a meritocracy. If Stack Overflow the company has a problem with that, perhaps they should consider stepping aside to let the people who do actually care about quality run things.

If they don't want to do that, then they - and Jay Hanlon in particular - owe us all an apology, and maybe, just maybe, some thanks for all the unpaid effort we put in to allow them to make a profit.

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    That interesting blog is becoming a tool for some people to defend poor quality question/answer. Like here here. Maybe some day asking whatever question should be welcomed ;)...
    – llllllllll
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:14
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    Well, comments like "just read basic string formatting first" is something that's not very welcoming, even though it's probably on point. It's comments worded like that I would consider on the more unwelcoming side of SO, not the downvotes or closevotes. That's also why I didn't take offense from that blog post, I try not to leave comments like that and just silently vote on content instead.
    – ivarni
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:24
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    Based on the title I was looking forward to giving this a big fat vote up, but then you went and blew a hole in your own argument by being such a douche about it. "untermensch"? really? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:25
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    "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers." Or was ... this is the first to be update to "... a daycare center for people just about to start programming."
    – Teemu
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:09
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    @Fattie SO is loaded with very poor programmers who know very little --> This is exactly caused by so many poor questions. Some users continuously answer homework questions and becomes a high-rep homework solver. Poor question is the root of the problem.
    – llllllllll
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:33
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    Hmm, I didn't read the blog post to go against the users who care for quality. Thinking about changing the site design to educate new users more efficiantly sounds useful. Asking everyone to be honest to themselfes about their behaviour now and then sounds reasonable. No one is an angel. But nowhere in this blog post did I read that your hard work is not cherished anymore or that low quality is now accepted. But oh well, what do I know.
    – Rhayene
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:15
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    This is a rant. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact many agree with you means this will likely never get closed (and, if it does, it'll be reopened). The fact I agree with some of your concern doesn't matter. What we need are constructive posts, not vitriol.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:06
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    There's loaded questions, and then there's this. Demanding an apology for perceived slights in the most confrontational way possible is one thing, but pretending it's an actual question with potential for feedback other than "we're very sorry, we concede all your points and it won't happen again" is another. I guess it's the price to pay for those comments being disabled -- now all the major opinions have to be littered across the site as "questions" instead. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:35
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    @halfer Why do you want to remove "demonizing"? Many of us feel like we're being demonized. Let's not beat around the bush.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:42
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    @halfer I don't really consider it diplomatic to remove "demonized" from the title. Users of Stack Overflow feel like they're being demonized by recent actions. To ignore that is to ignore the problem. And ignoring the problem isn't very diplomatic, is it?
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:50
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    It's kind of weird how many people feel victimized by this blog post, but demand evidence that anyone feels less than welcome on Stack Overflow. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 19:58
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    @BilltheLizard It's strange that people demand backing data after they're being accused of mistreating a group of people?
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:06
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    @BilltheLizard The things that are vaguely criticized as "unwelcoming" are down+closevotes, which are essential for the site to work, and comments (which probably often are only perceived as "rude" because they try to clearly bring a message across). These are targeted at individual questions (and usually not the person who wrote it). The blog post criticized the whole community. Persons who try to help others (and, who may, admittedly, find it very hard to not too strongly criticize the person who wrote the blog post. He should really take some time to reflect...)
    – Marco13
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:14
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    @BilltheLizard Except, they have. I've told people not to say "please" or "thank you". I've edited it out of posts. I've encouraged users not to answer clearly off-topic or clearly duplicate questions. The blog post describes these actions as "unwelcoming". I downvote poorly researched or obviously duplicate questions. I downvote answers that contain inaccurate information.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:17
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    @BilltheLizard It's not that my feelings are hurt. Blog posts can't really do that to me. My issue with it is more the implication: if the company believes we're doing something wrong by engaging in those actions, then they're going to take steps to curtail those actions. And I believe those actions are a necessary moderation tool.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:23

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I feel somewhat similar to you - it seems like this kind of spilled over without any direction on what needs to happen next in order to "fix" anything - but I feel like this is a stark overreaction to the blog post.

If nothing else, I personally interpret the blog post more as a "wake-up call" rather than anything that I should take offense to. It gives me an opportunity to actually reflect on what I've said to others that may have come across as "unwelcoming". And again, while I feel largely like you do - someone who's toiled and helped the site along in the name of Site Quality - I can still identify points in time in which I actually was unwelcoming to someone here.

I think the biggest thing that needs to happen is that the victim/aggressor rhetoric that seems to be playing out here lately needs to end. Both sides have a stake in this discussion, and neither gains anything if we suddenly start taking this personally.

At some point I'm sure someone will start actually pointing out the real problems backed by some internal data metric, but for now...I think what I'll do is compile a list of what I believe are the problem(s) with the site and what ultimately led to this blog post.

If you do happen to feel demonized or vilified, then there's no harm in you taking a break for a while.

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    I don't want him to take a break for a while...
    – david
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:17
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    Having quality-concerned users "take a break for a while" in response to this would reduce site quality and reduce the pushback against the harmful proposals sold as "being welcoming". Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:21
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    Feeling upset/angry/frustrated and sticking around until you can sort your own feelings out is worse than taking a breather and taking a break. Personally I don't think they'd stay gone indefinitely.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:39
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    I think the point is that these high rep users shouldn't be feeling upset / angry / frustrated in the first place. Not demonizing their behavior would go a long way in that regard.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:40
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    Getting your feelings sorted out is good, but speaking up promptly is also important. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:03
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    @Cerbrus: It's a bit late for that...the blog post has happened. What has to transpire next is some period of sanity. It's fine to feel however one feels in this period of time since yeah, it does seem like the high rep users are going to be upset about this. That's fine.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:20
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    The political power of victimhood is difficult to overstate, so it's going to be incredibly difficult to wean SO/SO users off of it. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:18
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    @Makoto While getting up and walking away is a great thing, I have to disagree that a period of sanity has to start with the volunteers. SE had all the time in the world to proof read and edit the blog post, and at some point, had to realize that it was going to spark a backlash. Trusting us to act humanely and rationally when an SE employee says our attempts at quality curation are pure garbage is...naive, at best.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:48
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    @fbueckert: I don't see anywhere where that post is disparaging our attempts at quality curation. I do see emotion attached to the philosophy though, which only goes to further my point; you're feeling as if you're being vilified when you are just trying to curate the site. Tacitly I find myself also disagreeing with the proposed solution, but this is only a symptom of another Problem™, and only goes to address but one dimension of the actual issue at hand.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:49
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    If a user feels personnaly offended and demonized by a blog post to the community at large, a break is definitely in order Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:11
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    I suspect there are a fair number of really helpful users who have taken a break for awhile precisely because of the number of ungracious commenters who've made SO a place they no longer enjoy being a part of. I know I'm VERY much less active than I used to be and that's part of the reason.
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:44
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    @tvanfosson: There are more than a few really helpful users who have taken a break for a while because of the way the company is treating them. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:55
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    Discrimination is currently a no-problem for SO and I think that it is dangerous to create a discrimination case when there is none and this is the case of the blog post. With this "artificial discrimination case" we risk to create real distance between people. Your "let they go/do" is wrong, this is a dangerous attitude that must be discussed and corrected. Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:04
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    Why should new-comers be preferred instead of experienced users ..? We old members of the community have got our part of the cake, and now it's the time for a new generation? Also, what kind of a site will be waiting for a break-taker, if you're on a break, say six months?
    – Teemu
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 7:02
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    Sorry. I typically agree with what you write, but when every request for clarification of information to a question is being flagged in response to Jay's post, it simply proves that knee-jerk stupidity (sorry, Jay) isn't acceptable or useful. Jay's blog post was ill-conceived, and a stupid reaction to #metoo mentality where anything anyone claims is suddenly fact without evidence. Actually, while posting this comment I'm wearing gray socks, and if I get a negative vote or reply to it I'm going to claim bias against gray sock wearing posters. Lunacy prevails.
    – Ken White
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 3:13
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I have discriminated against those who show no desire to make an effort to think, or read basic "how to ask" pages, or who just don't care. And I will continue to discriminate against those people.

- This I totally agree with. I've seen a drastically increased amount of LQ questions since the beginning of 2018, and despite most of them being asked or instructed (usually in a non-hostile manner!) to read How to Ask and the Tour, they still don't do it. Either they complain, keep pushing us for help, or simply ask another (pretty much the same) question.

(NOTE: I mainly hang around the or areas, so I speak from their point-of-view)

Very many newcomers don't care when we offer them the help they need to improve their asking skills. I've been in the situation, dozens of times, where one of us have asked the newcomer to read HTA and take the Tour (I usually also try to tell them what's missing from their question), but where most of them (in fact almost all) decide not to listen, and instead they get frustrated or angry because we're not helping them. Their post keeps piling on downvotes from other users and eventually gets closed.

Downvotes do feel very hostile, it's true, and the overall apparent hostility of SO is a problem, however, it must be noted that it is very often caused because the OPs refuse to listen when we try to help them.

The blog post partially tries to address the "low-quality questions"-problem with what I actually think could be a very good place to start:

We’re planning to test a new “beginner” ask page that breaks the question box into multiple fields – one for each of the key things answerers need to help:

  • “What did you want to happen?”
  • “What actually happened? (Include any error details)”
  • “Paste the shortest block of code that reproduces the problem. (We’ll format it!)”
  • “Describe what you’ve tried so far (including searches, etc.)”

However the post still does put a lot of blame on us - we who already try to help the newcomers improve their asking skills by telling them to read How to Ask and take the Tour, and to modify their question accordingly (plus occasionally some other help entries like On-topic).

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    @SurajRao : Thanks for the edit. I was typing from my phone and changing the text here and there so it got a little messed up (and there were also some autocorrect). :) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:25
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    /raises hand/ I was one of the newcomers who did care when the SO community offered me the help I needed to improve my asking skills. Here a year later learning how to ask a decent question is one of the most important things I have learned from SO, in addition to finding the answers to my questions. In no moment was anyone ever rude to me, even though my first couple of questions were downvoted. It helped me understand I was doing something wrong so I could improve. I feel that the vast majority of people who find SO unwelcoming are the people you mention, who don't care to learn.
    – Davy M
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:50
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    @DavyM : I'm very glad to hear that! Even though I don't ask many questions, SO was what made me better at asking decent, information-rich questions as well! I used to ask most of my questions over at MSDN when I was a newcomer (and those were not of very good quality), but SO was what really taught me how to write questions of good quality because it was here I got the most (constructive) criticism (and also by seeing that criticism on others' questions). Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:59
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    @DavyM. I bet one of the consequences of your positive experience is that you now ask fewer questions. A large part of learning how to ask a good question involves seeing things from the point of view of your potential answerers - which will then often lead you to the solution you were originally looking for. The cynic in me wonders whether this is what really worries the owners of SO. Their ultimate aim is always to increase site traffic. As far as they're concerned, ignorance is bliss, because well-educated users tend to ask fewer questions, and therefore visit the site less frequently.
    – ekhumoro
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:52
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    @Ekhumoro You're right: I ask questions all the time, I just rarely manage to hit that submit button on the question. By the time I've finished making a good question and making the error as simple for readers to see and done my research, I've either figured out my own answer, or I've found a duplicate question. By the nature of the site, the longer Stack Overflow exists, the fewer questions that should be asked, because there are more and more questions that should already have people's answer before they ask if they look. Then those people will not get downvoted and SO will be welcoming.
    – Davy M
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:57
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    @DavyM I'm a person who was terrible at asking questions when I first joined SO. However, I took the advice people gave me and improved. Honestly, if the people who find SO/SE unwelcoming are the kind of people that don't listen to constructive criticism, I don't even want them on the site. Granted, I'm a very low-rep user who sometimes answers questions, so maybe I'm not the best person to criticize question-askers. But people like that just lower the quality of the site, and that's something that I really do care about. Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:46
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    I too am found almost exclusively in the C# tag and thus have the same pov. the amount of bad questions (the ones where you google the title and have the answer) is just too much, if that continues SO will never get 'friendlier'. The only people we are 'unfriendly' to (try to give directions, somehow some people take everything personal) are the ones that don't want to learn, so do we care really?
    – EpicKip
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 6:55
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As someone else who has been on this site for almost a decade, who has tried to post good questions, who has voted on content, who has worked the queues, all in the name of keeping the site's quality up... I have a hard time seeing what you're affronted by in Jay's post.

I have never discriminated against anyone based on their age, skin colour, gender, accent, or whatever.

That's great! Nobody said you did, but that's still great. As I've said elsewhere, I think this is one of the best things about the Stack Overflow community. We don't tolerate that sort of thing. But I don't see anywhere in the blog post where Jay accused anyone of those things. Here are a few of the things he did say about the community:

Now, that’s not because most Stack Overflow contributors are hostile jerks. The majority of them are generous and kind.

We felt protective of our current users, because we know they come here to teach, and most of them are fighters for good most of the time.

I’m incredibly proud of the small part I’ve gotten to play in everything this community has achieved. Our users are truly some of the most generous people on the planet.

But he also asked us to face a few hard truths:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

And a lot of devs feel like Stack Overflow is an intimidating, unwelcoming place.

Too often, someone comes here to ask a question, only to be told that they did it wrong. They get snarky or condescending comments for not explaining what they’ve tried (that didn’t work).

I also noticed several places where Jay (on the company's behalf) takes responsibility for some of the problems:

The real problem isn’t the community — it’s us:

We trained users to tell other users what they’re doing wrong, but we didn’t provide new folks with the necessary guidance to do it right. We failed to give our regular users decent tools to review content and easily find what they’re looking for. We sent mixed messages over the years about whether we’re a site for “experts” or for anyone who codes.

In recent years, inclusion efforts (and other public Q&A work) have consistently been “fairly important, like… roughly #3 on our list of priorities?” Which meant they got allocated roughly zero resources.

So, I'm having a hard time understanding the extreme pushback I'm seeing from the community against this blog post. As a user who has cast tens of thousands of downvotes and close votes, I don't think Jay owes me an apology for pointing out real problems with the site. I don't feel personally demonized. He's only pointing out that, as great a community as this is, we can all do better. Let's not kill the messenger here. Let's face facts instead.

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    "Nobody said you did [discriminate]" - that's unclear. Jay's blog post contains the semantically ambiguous claim that "women and people of color felt particularly unwelcome". That can be parsed as "women & POC were particularly likely to feel unwelcome" (I think this was intended) or as "women & POC felt that their demographics are particularly unwelcome" (i.e. women and non-whites collectively believe that the SO community collectively bears sexist and racist animus toward them and that we'd prefer white men only to participate). Looks to me like many folks read it the latter way.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:23
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    @MarkAmery Then I would ask people to give a more generous read of the text of the blog post, instead of assuming worst intentions. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:25
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    "But he also asked us to face a few hard truths:" in fact there "truths" aren't hard for me, "Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.", I don't care, "And a lot of devs feel like Stack Overflow is an intimidating, unwelcoming place.", I don't care, "Too often, someone comes here to ask a question, only to be told that they did it wrong. They get snarky or condescending comments for not explaining what they’ve tried (that didn’t work)." ok this one bad, we must not be rude.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:26
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    @Stargateur The fact that you don't care, and seem proud (?) of that, is worrying to me. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:29
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    @LutzHorn We don't need the condescension and snark, though. It's not required. How do you feel when someone is condescending and snarky to you? We don't need to analyze the relationship any further. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:33
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    @Stargateur Nowhere in the blog post does it say that SO wants to allow more bad questions. In fact, one of the proposals says "Let’s make it easier for new users to succeed... We set them up for failure, and our power users have been asking us to help them for ages. We’re planning to test a new “beginner” ask page that breaks the question box into multiple fields – one for each of the key things answerers need to help..." Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:41
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    @BilltheLizard The blog post mentions "condescension and snark", but provides no examples of what it considers to be snarky or condescending; the first example given of an action that's now apparently unwelcome (or at least makes Jay "sad") is downvoting duplicates, and there's a vague expression of intent to begin purging "unkind" comments from the site (a category which, read plainly, seems like it would include any time anyone's ever pointed out an error in an answer). Is it really surprising that many commentators, me included, fear the worst?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:47
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    @BilltheLizard As for the beginner ask page, it's an exercise in wrongheadedness, for reasons that I, TinyGiant, and others have been pointing out on Meta for months: it's a template that only debugging questions can be fitted into, and so sends a signal to new users that anyone who wants to ask another kind of question is in the wrong place and should go elsewhere. That's the opposite of being more "welcoming". But if we haven't been heeded when we've pointed that out before, I doubt we will be now; instead, we'll get the template that shoos away precisely the users we most want to keep.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:52
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    @Stargateur: "They open the pandora's box, now we talk politics in SO, wonderful !" The problem with being "apolitical" is that some groups of people have to be political in order to exist and function. Their very real problems are lumped into a box people call "politics", frequently by people who want to then turn around and prevent talking about them by saying "that's political talk". Now, I'm not defending the blog post, but I don't think it's appropriate to attack it on the basis of "that's politics." Many people live politics, not because they want to, but because they have to. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:00
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    @Mark Amery: I personally am conflicted on the whole downvoting duplicates thing. We treat duplicates as signposts, i.e. not a Bad Thing™, right? So I feel like in order for a duplicate question to function as one, and in order for the asker not to feel that their duplicate question isn't useful even as a signpost, it needs to not have a negative score. However, that does mean changing the meaning of votes on duplicate questions since research effort is one of the aspects of a question that votes are meant to reflect, and I can totally understand folks being uncomfortable with that idea.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:11
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    You conveniently left out the more problematic parts of the blog. I dispute that people in marginalized groups feel less welcome. So far I have seen zero evidence to support that claim.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:51
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    @BilltheLizard Not helpful. If there's evidence, show it, rather than just casting aspersions on the moral character of those who are skeptical of the claim. That's the same tactic that the blog post used, and is what incited the anger that the community has directed towards it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:03
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    @MarkAmery It's so weird that you view that comment as "not helpful" and "casting moral aspersions", but you refuse to see how the snark and condescension all over Stack Overflow is not helpful. It's almost like you have two standards. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:06
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    @BilltheLizard "refuse to see how the snark and condescension all over Stack Overflow is not helpful" - again, neither Jay nor you has even tried to describe what would constitute a "condescending" comment that was previously considered acceptable but will now be deleted, nor point to any examples. You're putting words into my mouth - I haven't claimed anywhere that no problem with comment tone exists, and don't think so - but how am I supposed to form an opinion on whether some class of comments should be purged if the people demanding the purge can't tell me what those comments are?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:14
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    Nonetheless these goals are incompatible, as evidenced by the failure to make it work here for the last four years, and in comp.lang.c as noted in the blog post. (I did consider adding the obvious exceptions required to make it a mathematically complete statement but you are clearly an intelligent chap and didn't need me to do that. Yet you chose to jump on it anyway.)
    – Ben
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:45
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The single post that we published could have probably been broken down into quite a few, where we spent more time talking about the individual reasons why people don't find the site to be welcoming, followed by what we could do there.

There was an underlying theme that presents itself with a rather heightened sense of urgency, people are increasingly and appreciably reporting that the site is not welcoming for a variety of reasons, and they're reporting this with their words as well as their actions.

It wasn't a question of whether or not we'd be overwhelming and very likely misunderstood, it was a question of how. I think we knew that no matter how we did it, our post talking about people not being sensitive to other people's feelings was likely to be taken as insensitive to other people's feelings by some. If we had a few more months to work on it, I'm sure we could have done a better job, but I'm pretty proud of what we published.

We were told about, and found:

  • Blatant racism
  • Blatant sexism, along with strong evidence of unconscious bias clouding dialog (assuming everyone not obviously female as being male being a good example)
  • Blatant ageism
  • People ... enforcing these crazy unwritten rules that good grief can't I even ask a question stupid moderators editing my .. or, essentially, feedback we've been getting since the dawn of Stack Overflow because the system is so very distant from anything else, and since the community makes many of the rules, it feels like walking on egg shells because who knows what someone might do wrong next time!
  • .. more reasons that Tim wishes he hadn't stopped drinking

That's all a big problem in that we're actively unwelcoming in many cases.

We tried to stress a big part of that, and maybe it should have been a lot bolder and probably clearer:

*... it's not really your fault. It's our fault, as a company.*

I'll just rattle off some stuff that has been frustrating the heck out of me for a few years now, anyone agree with any of this?

  • It's hard to find any kind of consensus on meta, and governance fails to carry over anywhere meaningful in the UI. This erroneously sets people's expectations.

  • The /ask page has not been touched since we added that tiny bit of help in the sidebar over half a decade ago. (Jeff, you're preaching to the choir.)

  • Review feels like a bolted-on game of mousetrap. If one more person feels bad due to a failed audit I swear I'm gonna OH LOOK IT JUST HAPPENED AGAIN!

  • The mod dashboard is probably the one thing on this planet that needs less jQuery. I'm serious. No offense, Sam.

... I could probably complain my way through a case of beer shared with anyone that's been using the site since 2008 about this stuff. And if you're wondering why I'm rambling about that, it's to say that we know and aren't minimizing this stuff, there just wasn't enough room to show it at real scale in a single post.

I'm sorry that we didn't do enough to keep you from internalizing this.

I was worried about that, we worked hard on revising the post, and ultimately I think we got it in the best possible shape we could deliver in the time that we felt we needed to get it out.

But what you just did here is tell us something we did made you feel bad, we listened, and we'll get better at not doing that. That's what all of this is about.

Default-public time!

A great thing about working here is, if it's not about strategy or financial stuff, I can talk about it without having to worry! We call that default-public.

When Jay approached me with the post I flat out told him that I can't ask a single thing more from anyone else working earnestly in good faith to keep the site running clean until we are positively willing to invest in the tools that make the absolute best use of the time they're willing to give.

He (and Joel) agreed on that, and we'll be putting our money where my mouth is very soon. It wasn't forgotten. I'm saying this only because I want to directly contradict the narrative that we didn't care, or didn't pay attention - we were just struggling to get things done while hoping for the best, like many do.

When we hit problems, like this one, we adjust - like anyone else, and will be putting more focus on what gets touched a whole lot by a small subset of users (review, mod tools) and get serious about overhauling pages we know to be problematic like /ask.

Seriously, I am sorry.

Not sorry like "oh hey I just stepped on your foot" but sorry as in I really regret that something I helped work on left you feeling like an apology was in order. So, you're getting one, for us making what you do feel insignificant and taken for granted. It's not.

That was just a really, really, really hard piece to write. I'm glad it's done, I'm glad it's out there and while I have not been this busy in years, I'm glad to see us coming back on track and having these discussions out loud in sunlight. I firmly believe in the course we're taking and I'll be out there helping people understand it and hopefully embrace some needed change.

Thanks for calling it like you saw it.

There will be more about all of this, and ways folks can actively ensure that they come off as nice as they intend to that don't cost anything, but we know the tools being under par and our slowness in doing anything about setting new user's expectations based on what they're about to submit have been a major cause here.

So if you didn't feel like we owned that part enough, I'm here to own it.

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    Obligatory textbook example of blatant ageism
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:53
  • 40
    @BoltClock: That example is at -90, with a massive community response against it. Does it really indicate a community or site problem? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:57
  • 10
    90 people saying it's not a problem doesn't make it not a problem. ;)
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:58
  • 15
    @user2357112: No, it's just tradition for me to link to it every single time the topic of ageism comes up. I remain immensely grateful and humbled that the community all had my back at that time, especially considering I wasn't even aware of the meta post for at least the first couple of hours. Having said that, I think it serves as a good reminder of both the two facts that 1) people can and do say such things, and 2) the community does take a very firm and overwhelming stand against those things.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:59
  • 67
    I'm not seeing how you've addressed any of the concerns brought up in this (or the other similar) meta question(s). You've just re-stated some of the things mentioned in the blog post and said, "sorry that that made you feel bad, but I'm glad I did it". In effect, you've just validated all of the concerns this meta question has brought up. You've made it clear that SE is more concerned with making the people providing low quality content happy, rather than concerning themselves with making people providing high quality content feel happy, and welcome.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:04
  • 16
    Would you care to comment on how trying to enforce quality is total garbage? Its extremely disheartening to see SE express that sort of viewpoint when we're struggling to figure out how to move forward. All it does is harden the camps into us versus you.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:21
  • 20
    @joran When an employee uses an employee account to post on meta they are speaking for the company. Yes, the company is made up of lots of different people, all with diffing opinions, but those people all represent that company, and are expected to act accordingly.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:39
  • 28
    @joran I did. He doubled down. And since he's an SE employee, and using his SE account, he's representing the company. So I, for one, am extremely concerned that SE sees us as troublesome users that should just help everyone, quality be damned!
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:42
  • 12
    This post by you just makes me even more nervous for the direction of this company. Why do you insist on listening to people who don't contribute? Why not listen to people who have contributed and worked their way up? We were all new at one point, so we know exactly what being new is like. You're just doubling down against real users in your post: that's very worrying. What I'd like to see is a post here or on a blog saying "We take back what we said, we're going to discontinue pointing fingers at experienced users."
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 19:00
  • 16
    @mason Is it really that unusual that we would listen to people who don't contribute to find out why? Nevermind anything else, that's just basic user acquisition.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 19:16
  • 26
    The problem is that what SE has been saying have all indicated that SE is looking to change that core value of the site. People are indicating that it's more important for people providing low quality content to feel good using the site than for the site to have enforce a high standard of quality for its content. This is mentioned in the blog posts's statements that research just isn't that important and we shouldn't be expecting people to do it, to the post linked by Nick above.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:42
  • 14
    Probably worth keeping in mind that there are no specific changes proposed at this time, @Servy. Hopefully there will be, but that'll come with further discussion on meta and we can debate specifics as much as we like then. As for core values... Jay's post suggests rejecting "the false dichotomy between quality and kindness" - those are some $10 words, but I wrote essentially the same suggestion 6 years ago; I don't think it's all that controversial.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:03
  • 37
    @Shog9 I don't have a problem at all with your statement that you don't need to be rude or uncivil in order to uphold the site's quality standards. You don't need to be mean, you don't need to hurl personal insults, you don't need to attack people, etc. But the site is generally quite good and not doing things like that often, and removing them quickly when they happen. The issue is that people posting low quality content are offended by merely being told, politely, that they need to improve their question. Some people consider the very idea of having quality standards to be unwelcoming.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:08
  • 20
    In the past those outliers were told, when they complained about their low quality contributions not being well received, that the site is different; that there are quality standards that SO has that make it different from your typical internet forum. Now there's a blog telling them that SE is trying to change that; that their feeling of welcomeness is more important. Now yes, there aren't specific proposals yet, but merely the statement that of what goals the unannounced changes are attempting to accomplish is itself problematic, hence why you see such a strong reaction from the community.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:11
  • 37
    I applaud wanting to improve. My issue with the blog post is the conflation of bias and negativity based on gender, race, nation of origin, etc., and bias and negativity based on poor quality questions and answers. They are completely distinct issues with different causes, effects, moral dimensions, urgency, and potential solutions. They should never have been conflated into a single topic. Both need addressing, but separately, at different times, to avoid false equivalence. There would still be disagreement, but I think we'd've gotten a lot more light and a lot less heat. Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:55
52

I probably qualify as one of those "demonized" users. Can't tell if I can be reliably labeled as a snarky commenter stalking the newcomers but much of other things I do likely contribute to making it harder to post stuff at Stack Overflow - reviews, votes down and close, flags.

And I feel like the blog post is offending people like me for what we are doing, and this is not the first time they do so (and probably won't be the last time).

That said, I can't see them stop doing that. Because, if you think of it, as soon as they admit that Stack Overflow community is okay, they will face a bunch of uncomfortable questions: what can be done at their side to keep site sufficiently nice, what could be the root cause of the snark, what can help to really improve things etc.

These would be difficult questions and I can understand why they would prefer to stay away from addressing these. So far, other options I've seen that could help were: giving more power to experienced users to handle an inappropriate content and / or improving guidance for new users. Both these options seem to be quite effort consuming and rather difficult to do right.

In comparison, it is so much easier to point finger at the community and tell them to shut up - and if this doesn't happen it is also easy to say that they really tried and blame community for the failure. It's just such an easy way out and we'd rather expect that they will keep doing this.

Even in the (unlikely) case that they admit that this particular blog post was wrong, just wait for a few months and you will probably see something like that happening again. As long as poor content floods the site and as long as quality measures are insufficient to manage it, there will always be multiple snarky comments from frustrated site regulars making such a convenient target for the eternal fight for niceness.

I am afraid that the question that quality-concerned users should be asking themselves is, how to prepare to handle such offense in the future and what can be done to minimize the damage it makes.


As a side note, I don't feel that somebody owes me thanks for my moderation efforts because these do pay me back:

I am in it mostly for selfish reasons: I want Stack Overflow to keep helping people like me - those who get their answers here after dumping their question into google search box. SO did it fairly well so far and I wouldn't want to lose that help. I don't want my search results polluted with useless solutions to homework dumps. I don't want it to be flooded with thousand answers to single simple question about NPE / NRE. And I do what I can to keep SO content the way it is helpful to me...

Following the same reasoning I support removal of "welcoming" fluff. Greetings, expressions of appreciation, personal notes etc may look harmless for a random passer by, but for folks like me who frequently seek for help over here these only make site harder to use by obscuring answers we're looking for. And since my searches often involve studying multiple questions this fluff is quite a big deal to me.

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  • 7
    This is such a good answer, you're looking at it from a different perspective to most and it's thought provoking.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 18:48
  • So you missed the part of the blog post that said that the community is awesome and it’s all their fault? Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:58
  • related: Please scrap the highly-problematic "how are we doing" survey
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 30, 2022 at 16:15
42

There is a paragraph in the blog "Let’s reject the false dichotomy between quality and kindness", that maybe should have been emphasized much more. The blog post isn't about stopping enforcing the rules about quality, but about avoiding unnecessary hostility.

The SE Q&A system has a whole bunch of quirks and features that can make the experience for a new user quite intimidating. Downvoting and closing questions are probably the most prominent ones. Those have good reasons to exist, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve on them without compromising their purpose.

We don't answer "gimmeh teh codez" questions, and they should certainly be closed. But that doesn't mean that there aren't things we could do that would make it easier for the subset of users asking those that are able to improve. And it doesn't mean that we should add hostile comments on their posts, that doesn't achieve anything positive.

Using the community moderation tools like editing, closing and voting to ensure the quality is a good thing, and I don't think the blog post is saying anything else.

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  • 14
    What does it say? I still don't understand what SO (the company) is planning to change/add/implement on SO (the site).
    – user9455968
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:06
  • 1
    "I don't think the blog post is saying anything else.", So you agree with this answer from SO employee, meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366783/7076153 ?
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:38
  • 5
    Right. A good way to avoid phantom 'hostility' (lets be honest, most of the time its just crankiness and hissy fits - but we lack the tools to stop those from escalating) is to just be allowed to be nice and civil, while currently we're basically advised to behave like robots. Even if the blog post is far from concrete, I do like where it is going.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:33
  • 2
    The implication in the question title that the only "quality-concerned users" are ones who prioritise citation and enforcement of site rules should be getting more pushback. If a more tolerant approach is capable of encouraging more new users to settle into SO and progress from being sources of low-quality contributions to being sources of high-quality contributions, that is a quality-concerned philosophy too!
    – Will
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:43
  • 5
    The dichotomy is not false. It's not logically entailed that niceness and quality be in tension, but as a matter of brute fact, in our universe, on our planet, they are. stackoverflow.blog/2012/08/08/…
    – Ben
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:49
  • 2
    @Ben Thanks for the link -- it is a good post that I hadn't read. The takeaway it suggests, however, is not about tension: "The choice here isn’t between being nice and being right. You can be nice each and every time you guide someone to the right answer or the correct behavior, and doing so is not only better for the community morale, it’s also more effective."
    – duplode
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 4:11
  • if I could upvote this +100 I would. Swift and clear moderation is not in opposition to kindness at all. @duplode this to me is exactly whats missing.
    – bigmadwolf
    Commented Sep 4, 2019 at 22:34
  • 1
    @bigmadwolf Yup -- it is not a single axis. That is lost from sight all too often in this kind of discussion.
    – duplode
    Commented Sep 5, 2019 at 0:13
40

I am not a professional programmer. My degree is in electrical engineering. I received it so long ago that Fortran was the preeminent language choice for the programming requirement.

Here it is, 30 years later, and I asked a PHP question. It was asked out of frustration. I'd spent several hours hunting the Internet for an answer. It was missing one piece of information that would have been useful to answerers.

And then I made the cardinal mistake of stepping away from my desk for 15 minutes.

In that time over a dozen comments appeared. About half were run-of-the-mill requests for clarification. The rest..

  • chastized me for missing the one piece of information,

  • chastized me for what they perceived as not doing enough research (after 2 hrs of my own research I knew they didn't know what they were talking about),

  • and chastized me for not responding to the comments fast enough.

I lost my temper, edited my question, and chastized them back. My question was then edited by another to remove my response claiming that I was acting unprofessionally. I actually laughed. But I learned to expect that the community would hold me to a higher standard than it holds itself.

In comments a lengthy but civil discussion ensued about what I could have done better and the culture of the site. One of the responders complained that it was an affront to him to spend his time answering questions that did not meet his expectations. I walked away with the distinct impression that there are those on the site who think it's only for the worthy and wondering, if his time was so valuable, why he didn't simply downvote and move on.

30 minutes or so after I posted my question, the entire question was deleted by three of the users (thanks for clarifying that Yvette).

Full disclosure: the majority of the problem was caused by one commenter.

And curiously, another commenter actually answered the question — as the first comment. He hadn't posted it as an answer because of the missing piece of information, and so he couldn't be sure it was right.

Conclusion

Your rant against the blog post only reinforces the value of the blog post. The lack of civility on this site is deplorable. Questions answered today (literally today) are still receiving mean spirited comments. Honestly, it sounds as if you think Stack Overflow owes you something.

Frankly, the site appears to have become a home for people who find joy in despising newcomers. Gratefully, it appears to only be a very vocal minority.

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  • 6
    Was tha question deleted by a moderator or delete-voted by users? If I read this correctly, you understand how annoying it can be if the OP goed AFK as soon as the question is posted?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:39
  • 13
    @Cerbrus, that's a good question. I made an assumption because I can no longer see the question. As for being AFK... I participate on a lot of SE sites and this is the only one that can't be patient. I've answered hundreds of questions between here and elsewhere and never once complained that a request for clarification didn't come immediately. SE participants are all over the world. Sometimes they don't respond for 10-12 hours. To bad the folks here feel it's better to complain that their time's being wasted instead of just letting someone else answer the question.
    – JBH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:46
  • 2
    This sounds really familiar. Was I involved here? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:46
  • 34
    @JBH: So what essentially happened was that you made a post that was missing information, people behaved aggressively towards you, and you countered with aggression of your own. The root problem of this interaction was... your original post which was missing information. This goes back to my personal point, that quality creates kindness, and lack of kindness comes from lack of quality. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:47
  • 13
    @JBH: That being said, that doesn't absolve the aggression your post faced in terms of comments, particularly the "you didn't answer fast enough" parts. I'm not even sure where that comes from. But responding in kind is also not helpful. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:47
  • 22
    @NicolBolas, I did not realize the information was missing. It's certainly easy from the answerer's POV to see that it is, but the original question seemed perfectly clear to me. Justifying the site's poor manners because of an OP's imperfection is blatantly throwing the first stone. I've downvoted your linked answer because it demands perfection from the imperfect and suggests bad manners can ever be excused.
    – JBH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:50
  • 1
    @JBH: this site gets a lot of traffic. Users are usually reading your question with an intent to answer within seconds of it being posted. Try to keep that in mind in the future ;-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:52
  • 5
    @JBH: "Justifying the site's poor manners because of an OP's imperfection is blatantly throwing the first stone." I'm not sure what you mean by that in this context. My point is that good quality questions don't get this treatment. If you had provided that information initially, there would have been no comments about you not responding fast enough or that there was missing information. If you want to fix a problem, you have to know its root cause. And knowing that the root cause was an improper question tells us that making questions better will fix the problem. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:55
  • 14
    @NicolBolas, My reference in this context is that I don't believe for a second that any participant on SO (including you) has a 100% track record for asking perfect questions. The whole point of Jay's blog is that the community continues to blame and punish the inexperienced for being inexperienced. Please forgive me for being blunt, but another's incivility is not my fault.
    – JBH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:02
  • 17
    @JBH, I know exactly where you are coming from. I say this as someone who answers more than asks. What should have happened is one or two people should post a single comment each on how you can improve your question and others upvote those. No drama, no extended conversation. We should have the patience to let you mull an hour or three before updating your question. But this back-and-forth in comments about the value of each other's time is deeply off-topic and should be flagged as unnecessary chat.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:49
  • 8
    @Don'tPanic, Please don't worry! Momentary irritation happens and I know perfectly well that the 99.9% are suffering due to the bad behavior of the 0.1%. Frankly, my loss of temper was just as inexcusable as the poor behavior I was responding to. I appreciate the reminder that I have a responsibility to be nice, too. Cheers!
    – JBH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 0:33
  • 14
    "this site gets a lot of traffic. Users are usually reading your question with an intent to answer within seconds of it being posted. Try to keep that in mind in the future ;-)" That's both unknowable and not the asker's fault or responsibility.
    – user241244
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 6:42
  • 5
    There's a point here, and that is that veteran users are too eager to jump on the comment bandwagon on whatever the first comment said. Often without reading the question carefully. And then if that initial comment isn't constructive, or if it is simply incorrect, it all goes downhill. When that happens, other users have a responsibility to step in and say "hey, there's nothing wrong with this question, because...". One user doing that, then suddenly people start to think before down-voting or posting further comments. This can stop the whole negative spiral and save the whole post.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:26
  • 3
    @D_N This is a mild instance of something I see in Meta more often than I would like: after some dubious user-moderation practice is identified, advice is given to the affected party to adapt themselves to it, contorting their posts for the sake of approval if need be. The end result is entrenching the dubiousness.
    – duplode
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 22:17
  • 6
    What I mean is, new folks need to understand that nobody is going to monitor their half-baked question all day, let alone all week. Perhaps if the help center reinforced the need for a question to be initially as complete as possible, told new users to avoid going AFK within the critical 5-15 minutes after posting (by that time the question usually showed up in all chat feeds that monitor the tag and the regulars have all seen it), then things would be generally better. Commented May 24, 2018 at 17:00
35

I agree with you.

Some people fail to understand something very basic:

In most professions, you learn from your mistakes.

Stack Overflow is the same.

I started participating on Stack Overflow not too long ago, but I had been using Stack Overflow for years before participating, mostly because I felt I wasn't skilled enough to answer questions or because I never had to resort to help outside of Google's scope.

My quick integration in Stack Overflow allowed me to notice a major problem which is a little ironic to me considering that Stack Overflow is programming-oriented:

A part of the community, such as Jay Hanlon, as portrayed in this blog post, are taking programming too lightly.

It's fine that new users want to learn - learning is great - but Stack Overflow is not a playground. There are rules, rules that allow Stack Overflow to evolve rather than devolve. Like somebody mentioned once before, asking a question on Stack Overflow should be the absolute last resort.

The world of programming is constantly evolving, programming is slowly becoming a major aspect of everyday life, programming is going to shape the future, and do not take it lightly.

The increase in the importance of programming is leading to an increase in users joining Stack Overflow.

Some of those users are passionate about programming. Some are just trying to get through school. Some are serious. Some are just looking for answers.

Some post questions without trying anything, just a blatant halp me, with very little effort. That's not okay. If a user cannot show that he or she has tried to fix the issue, if a user shows no will to learn the answer to his question, then is it really abnormal for answerers to not show the will to teach, but instead feel frustrated at the lack of effort shown?

Don't misunderstand

It's okay to make mistakes. New users may struggle with how to format code when asking their first few questions. They may ask a question that has already been asked, but written differently. They may forget to provide basic information about how to reproduce their scenario. All of that is okay, it's part of the learning experience.

It's normal that more questions are being marked as duplicate than before.

More questions are asked and answered everyday, meaning that it's one less question that can be asked.

If you make a forum about alphabet letters, eventually they'll run out of letters to talk about.

As time moves forward, this will not get any better.

A question that has already been answered using version A of a programming language/framework may not be compatible with the version B of that same programming language. But those questions may sometimes get closed for duplicates.

Seriously

Stack Overflow has a learning curve, just like Vim. If new users are angry with the way they are treated, it's because they haven't grasped how Stack Overflow works.

In my opinion, the real problem is that too much people are being dramatic about this situation, and it's making everyone overreact.

Stack Overflow is doing perfectly fine just the way it is. If you're not willing to take a bit of criticism on Stack Overflow, then you're not serious enough. Otherwise, be like me and embrace the Peer Pressure badge.

4
  • 1
    This may have been what you were referring to when mentioning a question is last resort Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:30
  • @NickA Thank you, that's exactly it. Added the reference.
    – TwiN
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:38
  • 1
    Hmm.. deja vu about photographers/graphic designers being royally pissed at clients not taking their work seriously. Really unique perspective.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 14:11
  • 5
    just like Vim ... exactly. Can't exit ...
    – rene
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 9:22
30

I have never discriminated against anyone based on their age, skin colour, gender, accent, or whatever. I have discriminated against those who show no desire to make an effort to think, or read basic "how to ask" pages, or who just don't care. And I will continue to discriminate against those people.

I agree with this completely. The basic flaw in the argument in the blog post is that, in the vast majority of cases, I have no idea what the race, age, skin color, etc. of the poster is prior to taking moderation action on the post. Even in cases where I did know, it really didn't make any difference in what the appropriate moderation action is. I think that that part of the blog post was a rather bizarre (and decidedly offensive) argument, truthfully; I simply see no evidence that it's the case.

If there is evidence that someone is being abusive towards a specific user - whether based on race, gender, or any other factor - the solution is the same as it's always been: flag any rude posts as such, and maybe flag for moderator intervention explaining the situation if the user in question is clearly out of hand.

Personally, I try to focus on content, not users, when downvoting or voting to close. I think that, for the most part, I'm successful with that. Also, I do agree that there's sometimes too much of a tendency to leave snarky or sarcastic comments, which is clearly unnecessary. I think that that's the thing that the blog post should have focused on, not implying that people who moderate the site are somehow racist, sexist, or whatever.

I also agree that the blog post did show a certain lack of gratitude. I currently have 440 answers (vs. 30 questions) on the main site and multiple gold badges for reviewing, so it seems like at least some gratitude is in order there (especially given that I'm not being compensated for my efforts) rather than implying that I'm somehow a hostile jerk for trying to keep the site clean.

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    I appreciate someone finally saying this. I don't even know how it's possible to discriminate based on skin color on this site. If a question includes the user's skin color, it's probably noise and should be edited out. I could maybe see gender, since username can sometimes imply it.
    – Clay07g
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:31
  • I agree, especially with new users who are often user#### with a generic icon, that the answerer is unaware of the questioners race/gender/etc, but perhaps "minority" questioners are more likely to experience any unfriendliness more severely. Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 10:18
22

The thing that affronted me the most is not the accusations but the fact that he didn't bother to back himself up:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

What the hell is he talking about?! I don't, and never have, felt SO as "unwelcoming", even when my posts get downvotes and/or are closed (and they still do occasionally). And I don't ever see the people I'm communicating with, so if they get discriminated, that absolutely must be something that I can see, not their race, gender or social status.

Then, based on these unbased and highly questionable claims, he's mandating us to do some serious change of course.

And there isn't even any feedback mechanism provided on the page, so I cannot even let them know how ridiculous this is!


Now, I wouldn't demand an apology for "insulting" anyone since that can be a humiliation for no clear reason (people can get "insulted" by anything really). But there's strong evidence that the posts's author did a sloppy job, and they can acknowledge that in a mild manner, e.g. add a banner saying that the post has proven to be controversial and shouldn't be taken at face value / as official standpoint. Or just go the SO way and fix the problems in the post outright (we may even have a discussion about specifics).

21

Hmm...

I honestly think it was a mistake to conflate the general quality control harshness with a very different sort of harshness that's found a place to root on Stack Exchange.

I'll admit that joining the two issues has some strong reasoning though.

There is a lot of harshness tolerated here, because it's been seen as necessary to fight a rising tide of poor content. I've spent enough time in the review queues to understand why people start getting harsh and at times a bit rude about the quality of content. There's only so many times you can close yet another post about centering a div, before you want to snap. I get it.

On the other hand there's a different sort of user who seems to enjoy being harsh. Rather than wishing for a higher quality of content they seem to enjoy the opportunity to feel superior. The opportunity to be harsh where people praise them for it.

Then there's the sort of user who may overlap with the previous set. The sort of user who not only enjoys the opportunity to be harsh, but who is also perhaps a bit racist, or sexist, or homophobic...

You may see where I'm going with this, but the encouraged harshness has brought more than few people to the Stack Exchange Network who are probably here for the wrong reasons, and the encouraged harshness has allowed them to take root here, and at times be defended by good faith users.

You're pissed off about low quality content and you're pissed off about being painted with a broad brush. That's understandable. But be very careful about what you do with that anger. Don't end up defending the indefensible, don't inadvertently give people who are here for the wrong reasons your support.

I don't like it any more than anyone else, but we have some problems to deal with on the network. We can admit that the network isn't perfect and people who enjoy being harsh for the sake of it are making us all look bad, or we can defend ourselves and inadvertently defend these problem users. And worse, let problem users drive us all apart, and drive honestly well meaning users away from the network.

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    I can agree with a good portion of this, but the blog post doesn't actually seem to focus on users who are harsh because they enjoy it. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:18
  • 3
    I can definitely get everything you're saying in this answer, but I think it bears mentioning that lousy, but not provably lousy folks have a very long history of being deliberately defended by the best elements of society's justice. That's where we get concepts like the right to a jury trial, innocence until proven guilt, protection against illicit search/seizure, and so forth: all protections that, in normal circumstances, mostly protect those who probably did do something at least rather nasty. So for SE to inadvertently shelter a few sneaky louses is far from the worst possible thing. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:23
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy those protections are there for a reason. If you never found yourself in the need of those protections because you are innocent, good. I wish that you never will be in a situation like that.
    – Rhayene
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:56
  • 1
    @Rhayene: Perhaps I wasn't clear; my point was that in order to protect innocent people and good things, it's been found necessary for centuries to also protect some guilty people and bad things. (As few as possible, certainly, but it's never been anywhere near none.) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:59
  • 4
    If you want to stay with the law analogy: It is perfectly fine for a policeman to arrest a thief (aka close a off-topic question). It is not ok for a police man to punch the thief in the face while arresting them (aka leave a "This is soooo basic, if you're to stupid to understand even that you're shouldn't be here" style comment). I read the blog as a statement against the second part, not about the closing itself.
    – BDL
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:17
  • @NathanTuggy it seems I misunderstood. I am sorry for this.
    – Rhayene
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:59
  • 5
    @BDL: The blog is partly against comments (which is not necessarily that big a deal, although coming down harder on comments on answers to terrible questions is not something I agree with), but also partly and explicitly against downvotes. ("It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate.") Downclosevoting isn't police brutality (unlike rude comment pileups); it's using a fairly reasonable amount of force to ensure the job does get done. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:11
  • 5
    @NathanTuggy This sentence has been discussed in several meta posts now. I still think it says "Don't downvote duplicates because they are duplicates" with which I agree. It doesn't say, imho, that one shouldn't downvote duplicates if they don't meet the quality standard. I'v seen a large number of duplicates that were downvoted although they were actually well written (and sometimes even better written then the dupe target).
    – BDL
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:20
  • 4
    @BDL: Dupe voting is a bit fuzzy anyway, but the post does nothing to clarify things. My own guidelines would be something like this: if the post is clearly a solid, well-researched, clearly-phrased question that adds a new dimension to searchability of the dupe target, I'll cheerfully upvote. If it's lacking a bit of that, I'll be more hesitant, or will just leave it unvoted. If it took an unusually short amount of time to find the dupe, or if it took longer than normal to figure out what the question was saying in order to find it, I'll downvote. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:25
  • 1
    So your theory is that a bunch of racist, or sexist, or homophobic people who also love programming and spent quite a lot of time getting good at it came here not because they love programming but because they were looking for a place where they can be racist, right... their plan was also not to do it on SO(because we can't see it here) but wait for some years until other sites will be opened were they can manifest their racism... yeah... makes a lot of sense.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:50
  • 7
    @Oleg: ... huh? Where are you getting that from? The post isn't saying anything of the kind. What it's saying is that unpleasant people came to answer questions along with perfectly reasonable people. But now that we're trying to do something about the unpleasant ones, some of the reasonable ones are defending them without realizing how unpleasant they are. I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's certainly not some conspiracy theory that the sexist/racists/etc somehow planned all of this. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:49
  • 1
    @NicolBolas "who is also perhaps a bit racist, or sexist, or homophobic..." followed by "brought more than few people to the Stack Exchange Network who are probably here for the wrong reasons" means apaul thinks some people came here specifically with the goal of being racist, or sexist, or homophobic
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:53
  • 3
    @NathanTuggy to keep with your law analogy, some cops like being cops because they want to serve and protect the community they love. On the other hand, some cops, even those who started out with good intentions, sometimes get mad and go too far. And sometimes, some cops actually are just corrupt and abusive and got into it for the wrong reasons. Now should we say all cops are awful and should be denounced, or do we take a nuanced and realistic look at the complaints a department is receiving? I think we're finally beginning to take a nuanced and realistic look.
    – apaul
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:10
  • 3
    @apaul: "I think we're finally beginning to take a nuanced and realistic look." OK, so... where is it? Because that blog post is sorely lacking in nuance (and other things). It's so poorly written that it's basically a Rorschach test: everyone sees what they bring to it. One person sees that it clearly denounces unexplained downvotes; another person disagrees. If we want to have a "nuanced and realistic look" at any problem, we need to actually have that, not a single, poorly written blog followed by chirping crickets. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:15
  • 2
    @NicolBolas I'm not trying to defend the blog post. Ya, it wasn't as well put together and articulated as it could have been, or should have been, but it did mention a few things worth taking a look at. The part that I was most concerned with was the bit about how minorities are treated on the network, because that's the part that's most affected me personally.
    – apaul
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:20
17

There have been so many times in the last few years since I've been a member that I've tried to help someone who tried, but simply didn't understand what he needed to do.

So I spent half an hour typing an answer explaining every step on the level I perceive the OP being able to interpret the answer, to follow it and to gain knowledge.

Equally as many times I receive a comment among the lines of "You should have closed this answer as a dupe -1", however a lot of times I also receive a thank you from the op, stating it was insightful with some follow up questions to clarify stuff.

The people who forget that this is a site to help people, to give answers to questions to people can understand, that future visitors can understand on a level that they can understand, to build a knowledge base that's interpretable by advanced coders, and the novices. I also think that a lot of people simply stop discerning, who is a person who needs clarification what all the stufzz means and who is someone that says, gimme the codez.

With every answer I try to give the OP, and future readers that might also have the OP's question, insight into what he/she needs to know to understand his/her problem, how to find a solution and what steps to take.

Then in the years following I find the upvotes on those questions slowly trickling in, meaning I helped some people provide what they needed on those simple questions that others just want to close as a dupe.

So when that blogpost came, I truly agreed. There are too many users too quick with the close as dupe, close as too broad, within minute of a question being up sometimes. And the OP commenting under it that he doesn't understand how the other scenario applies to his issue. Mostly because the OP lacks the experience. So that user probably then leaves disillusioned and toils on with his problem.

When I started people used to ask a few questions via the comments, to find out the problem, to ask for more code, giving the OP some time to update, people who saw the comment then left the answer alone until it was at least a day passed.

Today however, I find no comments, just closed as dupe almost instantly, even on the question where the OP clearly states his lack of knowing where to start looking where it's a clear X/Y problem, without a single comment asking deeper, or a snarky comment referencing a dupe and that the OP should do research before posting.

So yeah, Stack Overflow has a lot of dupes, and most questions already have answers. I find myself unable to ask a good question, because they usually already have all good answers I can use. But I have 17 years of experience on my side. I can make a Java answer work for PHP because the Java answer pointed me to the fundamentals I needed to know. A new user most likely doesn't have that experience.

So I agree with that part of the blogpost, and I think Stack Overflow should basically start being a bit more forgiving for people who lack experience and are not "gimme the codez" people. Burn those. But people who are curious, lack the experience and gathered the courage to post here with their problem, we should be welcoming them, encouraging their curiosity, and help them on their way.

Note, this is just my reflection and observation of how Stack Overflow went in the last 6 years from harsh welcome to slightly unfriendly. Experiences may vary by person or tags.

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  • 31
    You can welcome and encourage someone while still recognizing that their question is a duplicate and has an answer elsewhere on the site.
    – Rawling
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:01
  • 1
    Does anyone really close Java questions as dupes of PHP questions? Seriously? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:24
  • 1
    "The people who forget that this is a site to help people, to give answers to questions to people can understand, that future visitors can understand on a level that they can understand, to build a knowledge base that's interpretable by advanced coders, and the novices." wow we strongly disagree about that.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:36
  • 2
    I agree with much of what you're saying (so I upvoted), apart from what you're saying about dupes. OTOH, I certainly agree that much can be done to make dupe closure seem less harsh / hostile to new OPs, and largely that can be done with the existing interface.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:08
  • 3
    Usually a comment under the question explaining WHY it's a dupe goes a long way, pointing to a certain answer in the dupe target helps too with some guidelines as to how OP can translate it to his problem. Sometimes that helps OP to reword his question to make his problem more specific. But a lot of dupe closes just lack that extra touch. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:19
  • 2
    Then invite them to chat instead of having an edit/comment/answer war trying to figure out what the OP was actually asking for. Those kinds of questions, typically, aren't useful. I downvote answers that are trying to guess at what the OP wanted because they aren't answers, they are guesses. That's the whole point of the comments: get clarity on the question. Once you have the question actually nailed down, go nuts with answers.
    – zero298
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:44
  • 1
    If only inviting to chat was easy. Oh, and you might have forgotten the purpose of comments. Asking clarification, providing suggestions and answering on those. Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:06
  • 4
    When closing as a dupe, you can still leave a comment explaining why. "On line 99 you do x. Don't do that. See the linked duplicate for details."
    – Lundin
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:28
  • "The people who forget that this is a site to help people, to give answers to questions to people can understand" - the purpose of the site is not to, in some nebulous way, "help people"; it is specifically to maintain a repository of high-quality answers to questions. Answer quality entails that answers are accessible to (understandable by) the people that would most likely have the question. It also entails that questions are not duplicated and that answers are centralized. If the best existing version of the question has unsatisfactory answers, add your answer there. Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 1:39
  • @NathanTuggy "Does anyone really close Java questions as dupes of PHP questions? Seriously?" - tags for questions can be wrong. Many programming questions are not actually about any particular programming language, and should have been tagged language-agnostic - but people don't think of doing so, and take the implementation language they happen to be using, even if it doesn't matter for what they're actually asking. Commented Sep 24 at 22:03
8

I don't know the answer to your question, but I hope Stack Overflow stops demonizing them extremely soon, because the entire site is becoming such a horrible mess!

It's the first time I've seen so many low quality questions (and low quality answers too) on SO. They are growing like weeds.

I ended up here from Google searching for stuff like "is stackoverflow dying" because I had the feeling something wrong was happening to the community.

IMHO they should forbid for a while to any newbies the ability to ask a first question unless they reach a certain reputation.


And about your quote:

Stack Overflow the site, and programming in general, is a meritocracy.

It sounds harsh, but it's true!

Coding is a discipline someway like math and science, it's not something that is "opinion based", it's not politics, it's not a democratic process, it's a meritocratic one.

If a newby doesn't even respect a code of conduct, and the site guidelines, and for these reasons he/she/it feels discriminated by age, skin colour, gender, accent... ...well he/she can go and ask his/her questions on a site that migh suits him/her better like Facebook or at the nearby local pub.

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  • @Jean it seems it just came all of a sudden (maybe in few quarters), last year I did not notice SO was getting messy. Maybe it's something that can still be fixed, unless I didn't notice it only because the chaos had already grown but was still not exceeding the order. Commented Dec 26, 2018 at 22:18
  • 4
    "they should forbid for a while to any newbies the ability to ask a first question unless they reach a certain reputation" note here that without the ability to ask questions you are denying the opportunity of earning reputation. The system is designed that you earn reputation by participation, without it venues of earning non-trivial reputation are non-existent.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 5:13
  • 6
    @Braiam can't they grow reputation by answering first to some questions, instead of asking ridiculous questions without even searching on Google for 5 seconds. Anyway it was an idea just to fix the mess for a while, not meant to be forever. Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 14:56
  • 1
    @Moritz: I agree the entire site is marching down into hell! Such a pity! Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 15:07
  • 2
    @MarcoDemaio I prefer the run of the mill asker not answering questions... usually their knowledge isn't enough to actually answer a question (blind guiding the blind situation). Remember, everyone can ask a question, but not anyone is able to answer. That's why answering yields more reputation than asking.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 15:55
  • 7
    @Braiam everyone can ask a question Unfortunately, judging from the thousands of flags and close votes I had to put on "questions" these last months, I don't believe this anymore. Some people are just incapable of even this basic task. It's very sad but it's where we are.
    – Eric Aya
    Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 16:19
  • 2
    @Moritz when I said "everyone can ask a question" I was actually comparing the intrinsic value of an answer vs a question, not implying the capacity that anyone has to produce quality content.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 19:09
  • 6
    I agree with you. I think SO is getting worse every day. SO should be more strict and even newbies should respect the rules that made this site the greatest programming site.
    – CFV
    Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 19:44
  • This is all very one-sided. Low-quality questioners are incentivised by by the fact that there are a lot of contributors willing to answer their questions. It's not all about newbies, and generalising like this about newbies is, to say the least, unhelpful. Commented Dec 28, 2018 at 23:57
0

In my other answer, I concentrated on the post controversy. In this one, I'll concentrate on the underlying matter.

  1. There's definitely a fine line to walk between caring about quality and being petty while doing that.
  2. There should be a barrier to entry, but there's always a trapping of it becoming too high to maintain a stable community (roughly, the ratio of "requests per time period/active members" should be kept low enough to get a decent processed rate, and there's always an inevitable churn which the inflow of new members must compensate).

The blog post basically says that they feel the community has deviated to the pettiness side, and the balance needs to be restored. The problem with the post essentially is that they formulated this badly.

Leaving aside the validity of this observation, here are some thoughts on how to keep the balance:

  • Programmers are expected to know to, and to be able to learn the essentials when delving into unfamiliar areas. This is one of the critical skills in the trade.
  • So, when rejecting a question, give (links to) useful hints (this includes casting close votes if the resulting boilerplate message would contain a useful hint)

  • To avoid delving into pettiness, concentrate on information, not attitude

    • In particular: do not comment if a vote would say just as much
    • Give the right message, which includes the message given by votes (i.e. account for the fact how votes are interpreted when giving them)
      • In particular, if a question is bad, perhaps only drive its score as low as hideous the question is (voters already seem to be applying this subconsciously)
  • Online communities, especially tech ones, are "direct" cultures because time is more precious here than in live communication

  • SO is mature now, and most common problems have already been asked and answered.
    • So, it's only natural that more questions are being closed as duplicates and downvoted for lack of search effort
    • But duplicates are not deleted specifically because you need to know the right keywords to find an answer
  • So, when deciding whether to downvote a duplicate, see if the existing answer can be found by the keywords that the OP has used
  • Likewise, it's becoming ever more important to systemically encourage locating related questions/possible duplicates -- at the very least, to reduce time wasted and anxiety built up on duplicate questions
    • E.g. there's already a panel that suggests these when typing a new question (I wonder if there are numbers how many duplicate questions it has prevented from appearing).
    • Maybe the same tool for answerers that appears automatically? (The app on the link is dead.) Improving search? (E.g. I often see that Google finds more relevant questions than the internal search)
2
  • Give the right message, which includes the message given by votes. This is like trying to swim against a tsunami. Culture has ingrained in us the attitude that negative marks are personal. I'm resigned to the fact that no amount of education will resolve this for new users (and, indeed, many experienced users). Giving the right message is pointless when it's not being received. Votes do have a purpose, it's to filter content for the rest of the community. Using votes to give OP "the right message" is a fool's errand.
    – jpp
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 16:39
  • @jpp No, I mean exactly this: give the right message with the votes, accounting for the fact how the votes are received. That's exactly why I argued that downvoting to oblivion is not useful (others seemed to disagree with that though so I hesitated to include this point here). Commented May 29, 2018 at 18:06
-13

This unfortunately all comes down to the reader... What some see as a perfectly fine answer others see as condescending. There are a number of things that can be done to reduce bad questions and bad answers. Sadly you can't make all users read your post with the actual inflection you intended, we have all gotten a text we thought was rude, only to learn we just took it the wrong way.

I just saw a comment on one of my posts I thought was snarky... Then I clicked the user profile and he is the nicest guy you could imagine... Yes sometimes stackers are judgemental, but this is not usually the case. It's usually the reader taking it the wrong way. If something offensive is said we have flags and moderators. Just keep trucking guys, you are all legends.

1
  • 1
    IMHO mem "SO is toxed" is not about "somebody said something" - it is normal - we all are human after all - but about the fact that during review "sloppy" questions are judged the same way as "nice but offtopic" (downvoted and closed) what could be really offensive. IMHO nice offtopics should be closed without downvoting and with attempt to show more respect to the authors. Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 10:07
-16

When more people like you speak up.

It stings at first to come up against the high standards that people have for the site and failing to meet those standards. One can complain, or one can remember that they're still a worthwhile person and that they are fully capable of meeting these high standards. The second path is one of maturity and ego strength.

People who lack a strong sense of self (i.e. can't handle criticism) are wont to lash out at people who remind them of their own insecurities, and they complain.

People in management tend to grease the squeakiest wheel. The people who are most invested should get squeakier like you are, and they will inevitably relent. That is unless the company culture has been taken over by the same sort of person who makes their insecurities other people's problems. If so, it will only ever get worse.

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  • 4
    Did you mean "want" instead of "wont" in your 2nd paragraph? Anyways, I have trouble understanding your point here?
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:08
  • 12
    Nope. "Wont" as in accustomed to, or used to.
    – Kevin Beal
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:10
  • "Wont" is indeed a word. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:16
  • 2
    The edit now makes your use of "wont" make more sense to me. Although for the benefit of non-English speakers, perhaps changing it to say "likely" instead of "wont" will convey the same meaning and have less chance of confusion?
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:21
  • 1
    Anybody is more than welcome to edit my post
    – Kevin Beal
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:23
  • 12
    ...or to simply look up an unfamiliar word in a dictionary and thus learn something! Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:47
  • 7
    The argument here seems rather self-serving and thus unconvincing: if others complain, it's because they're insecure and don't want to measure up against standards; if we complain, it's because we're right and we just have to convince management of that too, by being the loudest. Regardless of who you label "we" and "others", it seems like it could effortlessly swing either way by just reversing the labels. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:56
  • 1
    @JeroenMostert That's fair. The answer is incomplete in that respect. Thank you for holding me to a high standard. It's a sign of respect. :)
    – Kevin Beal
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:59
  • 1
    @mason: That's something else I've seriously contemplated for a while. What if the words we use are too big and convoluted for non-native speakers to understand? Should we accept edits that might otherwise be perceived as "dumbing down" the language of a post in an attempt to make it easier for non-native speakers to understand? Or should we do like LRiO suggested and have readers look up the words themselves (like we have askers do their own research)? I could totally envision a separate meta thread for this. And now that I've mentioned it, I bet someone's going to post one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 5:25
-16

The Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change post by Jay Hanlon is not discussing sexism or racism, and it's not suggesting being lax with moderation.

The premise of the post is:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place

And the reason given for that premise is:

We trained users to tell other users what they’re doing wrong, but we didn’t provide new folks with the necessary guidance to do it right.

And we are given the criteria that defines the behaviour that is felt as hostile and elitist:

Too often, someone comes here to ask a question, only to be told that they did it wrong. They get snarky or condescending comments for not explaining what they’ve tried (that didn’t work). They get an answer… but the answerer gets scolded for “encouraging ‘low-quality’ questions.” They get downvoted, but don’t know why, or called lazy for not speaking English fluently. Or sometimes, everything actually goes well, and they get an answer! So they thank the poster… only to be told that on Stack Overflow, “please” and “thank you” are considered noise. All these experiences add up to making Stack Overflow a very unwelcoming place for far too many.

And there are a hell of a lot of examples of this out there. Everyone on SO would have either seen or contributed to this behaviour. It's undeniable that it exists. It's accepted behaviour. Users defend this behaviour. It's not racists. It's not sexist. But it is hostile and it is elitist. And this is exactly what the blog post is trying to address and to stop. And I happen to wholeheartedly agree with it.

7
  • This is a great answer, I DON'T see why this get down vote so much.
    – Eric
    Commented Apr 13, 2019 at 5:49
  • @Eric because it is just as disingenuous as the original article. People who are acting in good faith, who don't intend to "discuss sexism or racism", don't bring up groups who are marginalized on the basis of sex or race in the same breath that they discuss concepts like "hostility" or "elitism". And, for that matter, it is not good faith to argue that it's "hostile" or "elitist" to point out that "please", "thank you" etc. are considered noise here when that is clearly established policy. Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 1:35
  • @karl hostility and elitism and racism and sexism can exist together but they are not tied together; they can exist independently. People who aren’t elitist can be racist/sexist and people who are friendly can be racist/sexist. Also, someone receiving racism and sexism can at the same time be giving racism and sexism to others. The hostility that I’ve seen on SO isn’t from sexism or racism, but from people being frustrated with repetitive and poor quality questions. It’s like a call center operator getting frustrated with customer calls. So no, I’m not being disingenuous. Stop conflating ideas
    – br3nt
    Commented Jun 10, 2023 at 4:42
  • ... Did you forget about the context of the discussion? (Admittedly it has been five years, but the rest of the page is still here.) The blog post brings up sexism/racism in the same breath as hostility/elitism, and that is why OP was upset. For reference: "Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups." To say "especially", i.e., to allege disproportionate impact, is a technique people use to imply bigotry without having to actually provide evidence. Commented Jun 11, 2023 at 23:27
  • Anyway, my best guess is that you got downvotes for asserting that the blog post "is not discussing sexism or racism", when we've all been through this countless times before. That's the part I personally find disingenuous. Again, the context of OP makes it clear why the blog post registers that way. In your quote here, you simply discard the part of the sentence that OP found antagonistic, in order to assert that the antagonism didn't occur. Commented Jun 11, 2023 at 23:28
  • I think I left that part out because of my interpretation of that blog post, but maybe for the same reasons the OP used "especially ...". Also, I don't really care about the downvotes as everyone has different opinions. I also never said that racism/sexism doesn't occur. I just haven't seen it, but I have very clearly seen the elitism and hostility, but that doesn't mean the sexism/racism/ageism doesn't happen. Most of the hostility I've seen has been due to poor quality questions. I'm just one guy though... so its anecdotal.
    – br3nt
    Commented Jun 12, 2023 at 9:25
  • Part of that may be people struggling with English, and the responses could be interpreted as racism, but I think its more in response to general communication issue rather than coming from racial hatred. Again, I think its about conflating separate things... they may overlap but that doesn't mean they are causally linked.
    – br3nt
    Commented Jun 12, 2023 at 9:25
-17

I have discriminated against those who show no desire to make an effort to think, or read basic "how to ask" pages, or who just don't care. And I will continue to discriminate against those people.

I'm sure if you think about it for a moment you'll agree that the best you can have hoped to accomplish is to discriminate against those who you believe to have the motivations you describe.

Unquestionably, there are people who cut-and-paste a question from their homework without even having made an attempt to solve the problem. Most of those questions should receive a (polite) response of "please post your effort so far".

But there are also plenty of people who post a code snippet with a fairly obvious flaw, or who post an incomplete example, not out of laziness but simply because they are so early in the learning process that they do not know and can reasonably be excused for not knowing exactly what is needed to construct a complete, reproducible example of their problem. They may even have misidentified the problem entirely (for example, "Cannot Read From File" when the real problem is "Cannot Iterate a List"). It is really sad to see those questions "attacked" by drive-by downvotes when what the person actually needs is guidance in understanding where to find the information they need and then how to interpret that information.

It's my opinion that many people (maybe not you, but lots of people on Stack Overflow) are unable or uninterested in discerning the difference between the first and second type of person. No one has a responsibility to answer the second person's question (or anyone's question), but it's in the spirit of Stack Overflow (in my opinion, anyway) that second person should be allowed to ask their question, and someone who's interested in helping rank beginners to answer it, without receiving negative feedback.

And even in the case of the first person -- who posts no effort at all -- it's ultimately impossible to discern whether they're simply lazy or just so new that they don't even know where to look. So, ideally, rather than making the person feel bad with downvotes there would be a way to direct them to the correct beginners resource in the form of "read this, then post a specific question if there's something you don't understand". If it continues to happen with multiple questions from the same person then, perhaps, some negative feedback is needed to encourage them to follow the advice they were given or to leave the site.

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    Thing is, there shouldn't be a discernment between the two groups. Both show no effort. One because they won't, the other because they can't. While I feel for those who don't understand, learning how to debug and program isn't something that SO was ever meant for. And downvoting is required to signal that it's not a good question. Whether they're just lazy, won't follow the rules, or can't follow them, doesn't matter. Voting is blind to the user.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:43
  • 2
    There is a fourth option -- would follow the rules with sufficient education, but don't know how yet. I see a lot of questions from people who I believe to fall into that category. I think the original post that triggered this one is a clear indication that S/O is meant for those people. Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:07
  • 5
    From what I see, there are plenty of comments being made to help guide new users to the resources needed to help them learn. Those are the users that do well, I find. That doesn't really have any bearing on what voting is for, though.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:16
  • "It is really sad to see those questions "attacked" by drive-by downvotes when what the person actually needs is guidance in understanding where to find the information they need and then how to interpret that information." - this is explicitly outside the intended purpose of the site. Commented Sep 24 at 21:51
-19

It is apparent that Stack Overflow has problems. I usually only look at the [C++] questions. The large majority are from new students who have not, and often will not, read the Asking and MCVE pages. They interpret succinct suggestions that they do so as affronts. Their questions receive downvotes. The newbies understandably become bothered and defensive.

Motivation is best done through positive reinforcement, not through negative punishment. As anyone who has managed a programming team, or even trained a pet, can attest, the major hurdle is "getting the behavior." One cannot reward or praise behavior that has not been presented. The solution is usually to substitute an easier assignment which can be achieved and praised.

The situation is not great for would-be helpers either. They are not presented with enough information to help. It is frustrating. The more experienced helpers often come from industry, where excuses are irrelevant, and a description of why, for example, a code-submission is erroneous or inadequate stands on its own. No apologies from the code-reviewers are required or expected. I cannot recall a single unpleasant exchange on Stack Overflow in which the original provocation from an old hand could not be charitably regarded as helpful, but terse. Using Meta to label such responses as mean or unwelcoming is counter-productive. Again, strive for the desired behavior, and reward it when it is presented.

Often good suggestions go unrewarded, perhaps because the newbie is unable to understand, or unwilling to do the necessary work.

I think the whole system needs a major re-factoring. I have a few suggestions for temporary stopgaps.

  1. Disable downvotes and votes to close on new users' questions for an hour or two.
  2. Provide an encouraging and helpful standardized response about Asking and MCVE.
  3. Give rewards for responsiveness from the newbie. If they respond to a comment or answer at all, they get some cyber-praise.
  4. This one I am not too sure about. Post newbie questions in a separate arena. No downvotes in that arena. When the question passes muster, it gets promoted to the main arena. Then there is a big reward and celebration. Maybe this suggestion could be folded into the others.
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    "Disable down-votes and votes to close on new users' questions for an hour or two." So gaining reputation gives you the anti-privelege of your posts being able to be downvoted earlier? That doesn't make sense. Commented May 19, 2018 at 16:54
  • @NicolBolas It makes sense to me. I already have a down-vote on this response, and hey, I can live with it. The measure, which I propose as a "stop-gap" is only to prevent newbies from receiving the immediate negative feedback that they presently are subject to. I stopped down-voting newbie questions a while back, and my life is none the worse for it. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:03
  • @NicolBolas I do respect your opinions. When I see your moniker on an SO response, I know it will be a good one. How can we mitigate the perceived "unwelcoming" attitude to newbie questions? The down-vote delay was only an idea to consider. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:09
  • 6
    "How can we mitigate the perceived "unwelcoming" attitude to newbie questions?" "Unwelcomingness" always stems from bad questions. So we have to stop users from asking bad questions. Either by encouraging them to ask good ones up-front, or by preventing bad questions from being asked at all. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:33
  • @NicolBolas - That would be ideal. The present efforts toward that goal are obviously inadequate. It is apparent on [C++] that few first-time questioners have read the Asking and MCVE documents, and fewer yet have understood and acted on them. All too often I suspect that the newbie simply cannot understand, due to bad instruction and unrealistic expectations. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:42
  • I would be willing to extend the one-hour moratorium on down-votes and votes-to-close to all users, new and old - again as a stop-gap. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:43
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    Question closure exists to prevent people from answering inappropriate questions. By delaying closure, you're effectively removing the ability to do any kind of quality control. Closure is the only tool we have to actually stop broad, opinionated, etc questions: by denying them answers. Without that, the site is dead. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:46
  • @NicolBolas I agree on that point. I do vote to close broad questions, requests for software, opinions, discussion, and so forth. I might even both up-vote a question and vote to close it, with an explanation in the comments. So amend my suggestions. Commented May 19, 2018 at 17:50
  • 1
    I'd be on board with hiding downvotes/closevotes for a couple hours. Don't think disregarding them completely would work. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/88440/…
    – Pekka
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 18:36
  • @Pekka - I could get behind that. Commented May 19, 2018 at 18:41
  • 3
    Related: Replace a negative score or highly downvoted post with a big !
    – jpp
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 20:45
  • "Disable downvotes and votes to close on new users' questions for an hour or two." - Absolutely not. Closing questions that merit closure as quickly as possible is crucial to the proper operation of the site. Allowing people to answer questions that shouldn't be answered (in their current form, at least) causes serious harm. Commented Sep 24 at 21:54
-22

I think if you clearly state that you have a zero-tolerance policy towards rudeness, you are perfectly entitled to enforce it. Just do that, and immediately stop wasting your time with those which are not worth it.

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    We already have such a policy since day one, so what's your point here?
    – Lundin
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:30
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    Then you agree that throwing trash in some strangers yard and then complaining that they were unwelcoming because they asked you to not do it again and pointed you to the sign politely saying as much that you saw and ignored is rude and should not be tolerated!
    – user177800
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 17:12
-23

... the endless hordes that only care about "gimme teh codez" ...

I may be wrong, but I think this is an unfair portrayal of the majority of the users of the site.

When I type a programming question in Google, very often Stack Overflow comes up first in the search results.

So I can well imagine that the majority of consumers are engineers who already know the theory of programming, but just have a question about a technical detail, and just want the answer quickly, as they don't have the time to stay and chat about the best programming practices in the context.

SO has proven to be (for me at least) a very powerful tool in that respect. It is a great store of the grains of sand around which, like the clams, we can form our engineering pearls.

And so in the end, when we have the time, we will come back to contribute our own grains of sand too.

Edit: ok maybe I am still somewhat new here, I haven't ploughed through the droves of 0-point questions like others may have, but focused on those which had already gotten upvoted. Still I think if someone starts behaving bratty to your answers you are perfectly entitled to just leave, no need to expose yourself to more of it.

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    I may be wrong, but I think this is an unfair portrayal of the majority of the users of the site. From my experience it is an accurate portrayal. I'd say about 80% of the question I visit I do some combination of: asking the OP clarify/add more information, down vote, vote to close, link to the documentation. This happens every day I'm on the site. Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:35
  • Not to say that these mindless coders don't exist, of course. They're just the loudest.
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:37
  • @NathanOlivier: can you give me examples of these actions? Also, "link to the documentation": is it that bad? If it so hard to find, maybe SO is the best place to help people do so. Then eventually Google should pick up on it and make it first in search results.
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:47
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    The documentation isn't hard to find. For C++ if you google it generally cppreference is in the first 5 websites and it is an awesome site. Here is an example I pulled right from the C++ tag: stackoverflow.com/questions/50118825/… Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:05
  • C++ is not the only language used here. Also, documentation is often poorly written, and then SO is the perfect place for filling in the blanks.
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:32
  • @NathanOlivier: why is that in the first 5 search results? Is it maybe because many other sites link to it, such as SO? ;)
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:34
  • @NathanOlivier: as I commented in my other answer, stop wasting your time down-voting, focus instead on up-voting, should result in the same with much less frustration.
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:37
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    I'm not so sure. I've seen plenty of questions/answers that need to go and they get up votes. Those up votes stop deletion which means our overall quality trends down. Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:44
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    @NathanOliver: that's where your down-voting should come in play.
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:01
  • By the way, @Protean, how many answers do you need to post to get your point across?
    – Mr Lister
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:14
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    Downvoting is a primary quality metric. Not using it means there's less signal to be able to pick out the truly valuable content.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:43
  • @Mr Lister: these are two different points. The comments above about voting got poured over from the other answer.
    – Protean
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:15
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    C++ is probably one of the languages worst hit by homework dumps, but I'd say 80% of questions are very low quality is pretty accurate. Spend some time on the site and it's not that hard to see.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 14:27
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What you all do is great. You help enforce quality. I don't think this is questioned. You are all great at this. Those of us who ask more than answer are very grateful!

How you do it, while not inherently wrong, could use some reflection. I think this is what the blog post was trying to say. It's how I feel.

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    That's the problem with the blog post: Nobody seems to understand what Jay is really saying (I don't). What does SO (the company) plan in detail? Jay talks about feelings and priorities, maybe even goals, but he does not say anything about how these goals shall be achieved.
    – user9455968
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:41
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    @Scott: "What" we do is a function of "How" we do it. If people are perceiving downvotes and close votes as inherently hostile (and the blog specifically calls those out), then that "How" is a direct function of "What". Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 19:43
-27

"and programming in general, is a meritocracy."

I absolutely believe you when you say you have never, knowingly, discriminated against anyone on SO "based on their age, skin colour, gender, accent, or whatever".

The problem is your belief that (a) programming is actually a meritocracy in some pure and perfect sense and (b) so-called "merit" is a perfect blind evaluator that doesn't just serve as an excuse to engage in what often ends up being behavior with heavy bias correlation outcomes.

People like to complain that the diversity problem in tech is a "pipeline issue" and therefore not their problem. Well here is the problem: when you have a pipeline fractured by systemic social issues and discrimination, it means that you are going to see people rising to certain levels with less exposure to certain forms of investigation, and therefor certain groupings will receive disparate impacts of behavior that has been systematized to favor certain other, principally in-group behavior.

You don't have to want to engage in bias behavior to still be effectively causing disparate outcomes along bias lines.

It would be easy to lay the blame on the situation regarding SO on "people like you", the true believers in "the meritocracy" as a blind, non discriminatory arbiter of who rises to the top, as if skill wins everything when skill is largely cut off by a combination of various bias encounters and unbiased behavior that largely aligns with particular groups—with excuses lain at the feet of the pillars of merit—along the way.

Ultimately, the real problem with the altar of merit is that it is all about one thing: claiming that certain people got where they are by being somehow intrinsically better, so as to deserve it. This belief is then used to spurn everyone who does not happen to master the secret merit handshake.

But this shouldn't be about where certain problems are stemming from. This should be about solutions.

If Stack Overflow has a problem, it's because Stack Overflow incentivizes certain patterns of behavior, while leaving no space for others

Stack Overflow treats only certain types of learning as valid. If you don't read this and you ask a "bad question", you are punished. By your post, you even claim that people who ask these "bad questions" deserve to be punished because they aren't high enough in the "meritocracy" to be worth a response.

In this sense, while I want to re-iterate you are not the problem, your post does do a good job of showing off some of the hostility and patterns of behavior which underlie the problems: this concept that some people don't deserve to be treated like people, with the excuse being how they ask or answer questions, or other ritualistic behavior that they are expected to either already be familiar with or will want to spend the time to learn just to have a "merited" place on this site.

And I think a lot of that comes down to an issue that the site is set up to point all things in that general direction.

Different people learn in different ways. Different questions and answers expose different things, depending on both their wording and whether or not they deal with the same either core topics or nuanced aspects. Programming and Software Engineering are tough, often unforgiving, and sometimes what someone experienced sees as obvious is anything but that to someone who is struggling to learn basic concepts.

We should always be striving for everyone, regardless of who they are, to feel like they have friends in this struggle, that they have a place in this struggle if they want it, and they aren't going to be turned away simply because they didn't know the right secret handshake.

"all in the name of keeping the site's quality up"

Here, I think, is the fundamental issue that I personally believe you have missed: Jay's post is just as easily about the quality of the site as yours.

The question is a matter of perspective, and also defining objectives: what makes Stack Overflow a quality site. As someone who almost never needs to ask questions, because she can pull together an answer faster on her own than trying to explain what she needs to ask when hitting a wall, I know what qualities make Stack Overflow valuable to me. But I'm not everyone.

Pretty much none of my coworkers participate on Stack Overflow except to mine it for solutions. Particularly the junior developers are afraid of asking anything at all. And that's a loss. Because in the nuance of the questions they would have asked, from the directions they were approaching problems, there would have been something helpful for other junior developers.

Quality is a matter decided by perspective and related subjectivity

Stack Overflow tries to wrap questions and answers up into certain formulaic points of what will make them a good question or answer "in general". And in many regards, that's fantastic. But it also falls down a hole of ascribing a certain sense of this being a perfectly objective measure of quality, which is how we arrive at posts talking about quality and merit as gatekeepers.

The real issue, to me, is that if you fall outside certain lines in asking or answering a question, there is quickly the impression given that there is little room for you on Stack Overflow, that you are to be knocked down and away as harshly as possible simply for what quickly can feel like it was simply for daring to open your mouth at all. You didn't RTFM hard enough, and you didn't Google it good enough. And in the end the message is that: it's you, so just shut up, give up, and walk away.

And that's a pity. Because rather than slowly teaching people to do better, there's a definite degree of telling everyone who doesn't immediately jump off the deep end with a perfect barely-rippling-the-water dive that they don't belong. So people stop taking the plunge unless they're already at a certain level of their game, and in turn people who aren't at that level are faced with questions and answers that they don't understand how to translate into applying to their own problems.

What's quality for me is not necessarily quality for my teammates

There are plenty of times where I've sat down with someone with a Stack Overflow page open and worked through how to suss out the information they needed from what was there in terms of what's in front of them and not working correctly right now. Everyone here likes to claim "it's obvious" and therefor "that's a quality question/answer". Well, the problem is that no matter how many Manuals you can tell someone they "didn't fucking read", at the end of the day if it's not obvious to them, it wasn't "quality" for them.

So how can one engineer a Q&A site that doesn't become a horrific mess of hidden needles for you in a ton of everyone else's hay

To me, the problem that Stack Overflow really faces is one of community and behavior, and how certain forms of behavior the site incentivizes through various structuring is resulting in outcomes that fall along bias lines.

This doesn't require bias to be at the forefront of that behavior to still be a fundamental truth at the macro level.

So how do you engineer something better? I think you have to start by creating more space that can self organize around different needs, while providing streamlined access for those arriving there with to different approaches to related information, and then contextualizing it all together.

I think you also have to look at the related gamification, and providing incentives for creating that quality information contextualization, because even if it's not the same type of work, it definitely ends up being work.

And I think you have to provide incentives for simply being kind about opening doors for people rather than shutting them, where simply throwing more answers into the equation might not be the outcome desired, but rather finding ways to gamify other interactions that lead to making those answers intelligible in the context of a different approach or different nuanced question, and in turn still recording that result when it's the desired outcome

So you don't want to feel demonized for pursuing what you feel is excellence

That's great. People shouldn't be demonized for trying, in the many forms thereof. Personally I don't think the blog post in question, fumbling as it may have been in points, was intent on demonizing anyone.

But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings. I'm sorry that post impacted you like that.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and "judged" on Stack Overflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

And I think that if you feel demonized due to the outcomes being called out, you need to take a long hard look at yourself, and maybe develop a little empathy for the other people who are on the receiving end of certain behavior and interactions related to the underlying structures of Stack Overflow and the particular form of community/"community" that is grown around them.

There is a lot of behavior encoded in certain aspects of Stack Overflow that are meant to help people find good answers, but when removed from a broader view is easy to internalize as basically being shot down without any actually constructive feedback, but at most, often, just derision.

I think a lot of people come to Stack Overflow, make what to them was a well meaning attempt, and leave feeling demonized. They're looked down upon in so many ways, with their intent read in to, judged, and summarily dismissed as, among other things, "not quality". And often, it's made to feel either personal, as if they aren't good enough, or so dismissively impersonal and disconnected as to be degrading. Somewhere between these two points there has to be room for some empathy and mutual sympathy.

No one merits being derided for trying

No one merits being derided for caring

You don't like feeling "demonized" "for caring about quality," but in effect you're also making the claim that there's a polarizing line here set by those who care about quality and are on the right side of "merit" and those who don't and thus aren't.

I personally don't see anyone being demonized for caring about quality. What I do see are questions about whether the systematized influences at work are, under a guise of upholding certain forms of quality, creating an environment that drives away people, and in doing so is perhaps impacting some groups of people more so than others.

It's not about "identity" politics. If anything, this identification (which easily comes across as snide, and yet I'm sure it was meant entirely with all the best intentions) with "merit" and "quality" seems to be more on that side to me than anything else. It's about a reality of a disparate outcome being created and a question of what is leading to it and how to help overcome it.

There's a lot of concern over "diversity" as if it's somehow the opposite of "meritocracy", and to me that says a lot about that particular vision of merit. Instead what I see is a concern about making a site better, but for everyone. It's not about putting down the few who are already in and doing well with how it currently works, but making room for more and an overall improvement in the process. This doesn't need to be a zero-sum game, and it's interesting but saddening to me that some people are latching on to it in this way, and immediately placing it in that framing.

A lack of diversity isn't a call for initiatives to "fix diversity" as if that means forcing an outcome with equalized representation, but rather points to something being broken if the goal is to provide a quality experience for everyone rather than just certain people who find they arrived early enough or fit in just right.

As I see it, there is a core answer that needs to be formed, and that's what the actual end goal of the site is. If it's merely meant to be another Q&A site with a "crowd sourced" aspect, then it's there, because it's certainly able to meet such a standard in this incarnation. If it's meant to be more, for instance if there's meant to be a more pedagogical side that's intent on generally lifting people up while still providing an easy road to relevant answers both for searchers and "askers"... then I think it needs more work. Which isn't a bad thing.

And it doesn't preclude quality.

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    Thanks for the thoughts that you've laid out here. There are three different emphases that can be given to the blog post, and the angriest voices are choosing one: that SO is regarding users as explicitly discriminatory. The second interpretation is that established users are subconsciously biased, but they don't mean to be, and they are just reflecting the discriminatory memes of their wider societies. That has been mentioned on Meta several times too. ...
    – halfer
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:41
  • 2
    The third one does not seem to have been mentioned so much, and I wonder if it is worth raising. I wonder if the blog post was aiming for this: some people feel excluded as a result of marginalisation/discrimination they have received elsewhere, and they feel less welcome as a result. Thus, perhaps it is not so much a problem of the implicit biases of readers - who often cannot see the identity of the question author - just that we need to improve our welcome mat?
    – halfer
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:45
  • 1
    Honestly, while I realize this kind of meandered more than I meant it to when I had the idea of writing out the related thoughts, that third point is where I'm hoping the aim will be, because I see it as the most crucial, and also the one that is most easily overlooked on the hill of "but I'm not biased and don't even look at the race/gender/etc of the people I reply to/moderate, so HOW DARE YOU!!" There's a lot of room for problematic impact outcomes outside of any desire to harm people. And there's a lot of room for very angry defensive posture in response to saying "let's do better".
    – taswyn
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:36
  • Indeed, yes. I wouldn't worry about the length here - I suspect it could be used as a canonical response to link to every time I see a new instance of misreading inclusion strategies.
    – halfer
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:42
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    I remain unconvinced of the "problematic impact" of SO because 1.) it still fulfills its primary mission, to be a library of useful information for people to find with 0 barriers of entry except for a PC and Internet, anywhere in the world, and 2.) the grumpiness around here is usually very equal opportunity, and my view is the divide of people who can put up with it vs. those who can't is decided by personality type more than by anything else. (Yes I agree the place needs to become more friendly and hostility sucks, been saying that for years. But it's not an easy thing to pull off.)
    – Pekka
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 14:27
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    I completely agree there's loads and loads of people who leave SO every day feeling awful, and that's not right. But - SO is, as you correctly note, a highly specific, highly competitive system that is optimized for a certain outcome and for a certain type of skill/knowledge - but that's not inherently a bad thing. Every institution of higher education works the same way, and SO is producing improbably good results even a decade in. Honestly, I was sure it wasn't going to last more than five years! So while as said I agree SO needs to improve in terms of tone and athmosphere, I'm wondering...
    – Pekka
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 14:34
  • 1
    ... whether what some people are asking SO to become isn't something that should be implemented in the form of a distinctly different platform instead. A sister site to SO, perhaps, or a partner site if SO, Inc. can't do it. A place that focuses much more on community, empathy, mentorship, helping people where they are at rather than judging them for not yet being there, etc. etc. There's certainly room for improvement on SO but I don't see it turning into a place I would feel ok to send a complete beginner to, ever. Not without taking away the very attributes that made it work so well.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 14:36
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    @Pekka웃 personally, from a UX standpoint crossed to an IA one, I think there's room to implement both a better funnel for asking/finding questions/answers, & a better way of handling questions w/ commonalities. I think "duplicate" often loses information as it is now. Would require some definite work, so really up to whether SO has a vision of that nature in mind & wants to put in that effort for those reasons. To me, this is much like accessibility at the core: result = making things better for everyone in the process of solving for factors more strongly affecting marginalized groups
    – taswyn
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 17:34
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    @Pekka웃 in terms of "problematic impact", my concern is more whether there are non obvious elements creating bias outcomes in marginalized groups, possibly at a greater ratio despite no intentional targeting. The demographics are pretty clear: the question is what's driving the disparities. Everyone wants to point elsewhere on diversity issues (pipeline/etc): but rather than worry over "blame"/shifting blame, I prefer approaches that try to fairly elevate all as they can. Being generally more welcoming, to me, is a UX improvement for everyone that might also help with diversity issues.
    – taswyn
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 17:45
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    Yeah, handling duplicates is definitely one of the areas that could use some work. There's several promising (and btw much more friendly!) suggestions how to do that on Meta; e.g. this one from Shog that I fleshed into a feature request. So far there's been no interest from above though.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 17:57
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    @Pekka웃 to me, to fundamentally do it "right" would require re-architecting relationships between questions on the backend, &then how relationships between similar questions present on the front end. Ideally you'd arrive at something like micro-topical question/answer clouds, with particular questions & answers being promoted and even cross promoted above others via the voting & other structures; possibly even allowing for answers to other questions to be chosen as correct for a given question. At stake would be the fine line between just a mess vs organized information. Will read your link!
    – taswyn
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 20:37
  • I would love to see a system that connects similar q's better than the current one. Btw, on the broader topic, here is a FAQ entry/philosophical treatise on why one frequent suggestion to make things more humane - requiring that negative feedback be accompanied by a comment - just isn't feasible meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/357436/…
    – Pekka
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 8:01
  • 1
    @Pekka I agree that mandatory comments on downvotes are infeasible, and would cause systematic behavioral pressure issues counter to the point of using them, and honestly might make things worse rather than better in terms of people "feeling welcome", given the comments likely to occur. I think a better way of integrating downvotes in terms of how they display might help soften their emotional impact while preserving their ranking utility. Or deciding on a different structure that fits their imagined/intended role & eliminating them (I only downvote for objectively wrong things, for instance
    – taswyn
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 15:41
  • @taswyn yeah, that's probably the way to go. I suggested this once...
    – Pekka
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 16:17
  • "The problem is your belief that (a) programming is actually a meritocracy in some pure and perfect sense and (b) so-called "merit" is a perfect blind evaluator that doesn't just serve as an excuse to engage in what often ends up being behavior with heavy bias correlation outcomes." I don't understand how people can make statements like this in good faith and without self-doubt. Like, you are aware that there is such a thing as a compiler, and it processes your code without taking your race, gender or anything else into account? What else could "blind" or "perfect" mean here? Commented Jun 15, 2021 at 5:26
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From the sole perspective of the OP, it is still an unwelcoming behavior.

That blog post, that particular blog post, I have waited for this for years. Though it is not to the point, but still...

And when it comes, I see the precious people from the community justifying why they were like that.

I completely agree with all of them, the dedication with which they work. Putting up there time in solving someone's issue. They want that that user must have to put a clear, justified question so that they can help the user.

But please go through this small story back in 201*:

John: Hey Mike! I joined Facebook today, it's a pretty cool site. You can post statuses (Mike doesn't know what posting a status means), upload photos, videos and cool stuff.

Mike: Oh wow! I will try that

Mike went home, signed up (hasn't read any T&C) and started posting.

Mike went to college or a new company, and had a programming issue. He didn't know it was some code issue, or a logical issue, or something. He just started coding. On the Internet or from some friend, he came to know about this holy site 'Stack Overflow'.

John told him: Stack Overflow is place for enthusiasts, a site where people solve issues, help to learn better.

But from the above sentence he just heard this thing, a site where

people solve issues

He went to the site and saw the 'Ask a Question' button. The page asked to go through a tour. But he came from a number of social media, open platforms, to a more formal platform where people dedicate their knowledge to help others.

But he skipped the tour (Why? Because he never ever had gone through any before these on any other site. He didn't know that it is also very important to post questions according to the guidelines of Stack Overflow.)

He posted an unclear question, no logs, no RnD (may be), may be a duplicate.

He is expecting an answer, he is waiting for an answer, and suddenly a downvote, and a comment, and some close votes, and more downvotes.

'Please take a tour' one of the comments suggests.

He becomes furious. Why are people judging him? What do they want? Am I unclear (new users will never ask this of themselves).

So now, either he will

  1. Go to the tour
  2. Throw a rant
  3. Or I don't know

But all the parties involved here seem so honest and up to the point. Nobody is wrong. But yeah, from the sole perspective of the OP, it is still an unwelcoming behavior.

See this question as reference: New users never take the tour everytime.

Enter image description here

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    Most (all?) would agree that we need better ways of easing new users in. I agree that their experience with other media like Facebook and Twitter, may give them expectations that don't apply to Stack Overflow. But the pushback against The Infamous Blog is that it makes an implicit accusation of racism and sexism; I'm sure that without that, the whole thing would have gone over a lot better. Commented May 3, 2018 at 6:51
  • 17
    The "all the other platforms do it in one way, SO should adapt to them" argument is getting old. All platforms are unwelcoming for users at times. Commented May 4, 2018 at 18:05
  • 7
    One don't go to Linkdin and start posting memes. Having a minimal understanding of where you're posting stuff is a sign of respect for your audience...
    – brasofilo
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 23:56
  • 3
    @brasofilo Believe me, it is worse than that, however I am emphasizing over (1.) The inability of the user to know the depth of the policies and regulations of the platform, which they have taken forgranted unconsciously while following other platforms, and (2.) the rude behavior(from the POV of OP) of SO community. However I am having a diplomatic view for both parties, as none of them seems wrong to me.
    – nobalG
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 9:14
  • 7
    no what you are describing is not unwelcoming behavior on the part of the community, that is entitled self-absorbed narcissistic behavior on part of the person internalizing a completely neutral comment and clicks on an arrow, that is what you are describing.
    – user177800
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 17:08
  • 1
    I like the sentiment of this post, even if I don't completely agree.
    – kabanus
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 18:09
  • 5
    Since you are quoting me with the screenshot, notice how the author of the post I commented under "became furious" or anything like that. They thanked me and went on their way to read the tour. Isn't that just great?
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 20:07
-32

I can't see that you would be demonized. I see that you are ruling the site.

Unfortunately, I've seen

  • too many good questions in the vote-to-close (VtC) queue,
  • too many good questions closed with some trumped up reason
  • and too many falsely closed questions dupe-hammered by "someone" without a single remark,

to fully agree your view.

BTW, the VtC queue on the main site is still at 8,700. I think if you feel yourself demonized, then go there and review 40 questions. Until the VtC queue isn't below 1,000 again, there isn't too much to talk about.

P.s. the "discrimination" based on gender and similars are obviously laughing on a mainly anonymous site. In my opinion, simply the voting customs are somehow too antagonistic. (While the site is too tolerant against people who clearly show that they doesn't even try to post high-quality content.)

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  • 8
    I agree that there are too many questions in the close vote queue that dont deserve to be there, and too many questions that are closed which shouldn't be, but I disagree with your assertion that curators are not being demonized.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 21:14
  • Fortunately, "good" is subjective and we have this queue to give more people the ability to present their opinion.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 21:38
  • @TinyGiant Cooperative arguments! :-) You are like an oasis in the desert. I edit the post.
    – peterh
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 21:53
  • 2
    The only ways it's going to get below 1000 would be if more people use their votes, or if we strongly restrict asking. Or, i guess, if we bump the threshold back to 3.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 21:55
  • @KevinB What about a decrease of the 3k limit? I think a flexible limit would be the best: if the queue is low, only higher rep users could review, while with high queue, also the low-rep ones could.
    – peterh
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 21:59
  • I think a lot of the problem comes from close flags bybusers with less than 3k combined with robo-close-reviewers personally, but I have no data to back that up.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 22:02
  • 2
    yeah, allowing more users to cast votes might help.. but then you have to start thinking about the quality of those votes. I would expect users who have been here longer to be more likely to use their votes anyway.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 22:05
  • @KevinB Yes, but now a large part of the close votes is lost due to the queue expirations. A similar negative effect exists in the current system, too.
    – peterh
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 22:33
  • @KevinB SEDE could be used to calculate a function, how the "correctness" of a close vote depends on the voter reputation. This could be extrapolated below 3k. This info could be used to calculate, how would the increased count of the bad votes affect the quality. It could be compared with the effect of the expired VtC reviews. It wouldn't be an easy query, but you gave me an idea! :-)
    – peterh
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 22:38
  • 1
    My point being that if we disabled flagging for closure (or possibly directed those flags to a separate queue where it would be clear to reviewers that they are evaluating the flags of users that are still learning what is on-topic here), the size of the close vote queue would likely be much smaller, wouldn't be filled with as many questions that don't need to be there, and close votes would be less likely to age away.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 23:25
  • @TinyGiant How do you know that most VtC review is initiated by a flag? As I can remember, in the VtC review queue it doesn't happen too often that I would be the first reviewer.
    – peterh
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 23:32
  • I see it fairly regularly when I do review. At one point i just skipped all close vote reviews that didnt already have a close vote and it was quite a lot of skipping. As i said I don't have any data on it, but that's what I think.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2018 at 23:35
-41

Disclaimer: This answer is written from the perspective of a 'newbie'.

You state

I have discriminated against those who show no desire to make an effort to think, or read basic "how to ask" pages, or who just don't care.

This sounds very arrogant to me. What makes you think you can distinguish in an instant, whether someone posted crap on purpose not willing to read any advice on asking? Maybe these people don't know it better. Many people can't read/speak/write English fluently. Those people tend to read only text that seems important for them. Unintentionally. They have a question and want an answer for that as fast and as profound as possible. This is why they're on Stack Exchange after all. If they wanted a dumb answer or they wanted to wait for few weeks for an answer, they would visit any forum or Yahoo Answers or such.

Let's take your 'question': When is Stack Overflow going to stop demonizing the quality-concerned users who have made the site a success? (Caution: personal statements without confirming arguments ahead.)

The question title alone makes me think, you see yourself as a kind of elitist who stands alone (or with a few others) against a neverending flood of newbies who actively and repeatedly try to decrease the overall quality of Stack Overflow by asking dumb questions on purpose.

Tell you what: that's not the case. It's not you against them. At least it shouldn't be from your point of view.

What may seem like a dumb question to you (as an expert on your field) may be the exact the question another (or 100 other) newbie(s) has/have too. With no clue how to solve the issue. For whatever reasons. So they ask, maybe making mistakes while doing so. No reason to assume they are evil and still no reason to be hostile.

Also Jay wrote:

But our active users regularly express their frustration that we haven’t done more to make outsiders feel more welcome. The real problem isn’t the community — it’s us [...]

On many occasions newbies get told that not they personally get downvoted, but rather their questions and answers and they should keep this in mind when feeling offended. This applies here, too. Jay doesn't demonize the community as a whole, every single responsible user in it or even you in personal, but some users who are not able to express themselves in certain situations without seeming hostile to the recipients of their message. You should not take it personal.


From a newbie's perspective, here come two examples:

After using Stack Exchange as a trustable source of answers to any kinds of questions for years, I finally asked a question. In the comments of the question I was told, what I want to achieve is not possible. Then the question was marked as a duplicate of another question, which I strongly disagreed with. I made my point clear and requested for removing the duplicate 'stigma' and reopening the question. I got the following rude comment (I don't know the exact wording anymore):

So that someone else can tell you this is not possible? Definitely no.

Crushing. I felt treated unfairly. Also this comment led me to believe, the commenter indeed was aware that the question is not a duplicate, but refused to reopen the question because he/she didn't felt to. It would've been more valuable to me (as in learning to ask 'better' questions) and to others having the same question, if an actual answer would have been posted. Even if it stated, what I try to achieve is not possible (+ reasons). I think behaviour like this is what Jay meant in his blog post. Unfortunately this question seems to be deleted by now and I don't even know the question title anymore.

Then, a few weeks later, I asked a question on Software Engineering about enterprise architect & code generation just to receive a bunch of downvotes with none of the downvoters seeming to care leaving a comment on why they downvoted. After writing a comment asking for reasons, I finally received a friendly comment stating that "This is off-topic for Software Engineering, questions about help getting specific code working should be posted on Stack Overflow."

I didn't know that. Not because I'm lazy and didn't read the tour or the asking advice, but because it is stated nowhere on the site when compiling a question. Not even on the landing page of a Stack Exchange site there is an explanation of what the scope of this specific page is - in detail. *

This is not newbie-friendly. This discourages from asking more questions as a beginner. I don't say that every user (or even a big portion) trying to keep up the quality of the site is an evil monster (and as stated above, Jay didn't either), but there are times when those 'power users' may behave in a hostile (read non-friendly) way. Not necessarily on purpose. But the reason for the hostility doesn't matter for the newbies. It is not important what the (hidden) intention of the sender was (e.g. writing the same advice for the 10000th time). It is important how the information is perceived by the recipient.

To use an analogy of "If you don't have anything nice to say, just don't say anything": If you can't express what you want to say in a friendly manner, leave it to the next one.

IMHO this is what Jay's blog post was about.


*: I think I've seen that it's possible to move questions between sites to a Stack Exchange site that it fits in. This would have been a much better approach to me than just downvoting the question without leaving any comment on the reasons.


TLDR: The blog post does not seem demonizing to me. Don't take it personally. Two examples of what can go wrong when dealing with newbies.


Three things I have to add:

  1. The whole discussion may be heavily biased due to the nature of humans. We like to criticize fast and often if something doesn't meet our expectation (like I did here). Rarely we praise something that works as expected. So Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange in general receive more criticism by newbies than praisings.
  2. I don't know why Jay mixes up newbies to the site with minorities implying that every user already active on the page must be a middle-aged white Caucasian man and every newbie must be a member of any minority. IMHO this is a statement leading to many acts of justification and self-defense.
  3. Please do not see my answer as an universal condemnation of Stack Exchange and its very experienced and valuable users. Stack Exchange is an awesome platform. My answer is also not meant as a rant on you in personal.

Thank you all for contributing to this platform, making the Internet more a source of valuable information bit by bit, day by day. Love you all <3

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  • 19
    @Tim: I read enough to know where you were going with your post. And by the end, I saw nothing to make me change my vote. Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:02
  • 31
    "Many people can't read/speak/write English fluently" This probably isn't the place for them. This is an English language Q&A site. If a person can't understand the answers given, it likely won't help enough that they can apply the answer given to their specific situation. Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:36
  • 2
    @Tim 1 minute is long enough to read your tl;dr.
    – Mr Lister
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:47
  • 2
    "Caucasian" may not be understood outside of a US context. Commented May 2, 2018 at 1:14
  • 2
    "So that someone else can tell you this is not possible? Definitely no." is a prime example of really unnecessary snark.
    – user241244
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 6:48
  • 1
    FYI meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/367092/…
    – Passer By
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 14:17
  • 2
    @D_N - that is their internalized paraphrasing of what it actually said, they say this as much "I don't know the exact wording anymore", so there is no way to judge what the actual comment might have been or where it falls on the snark meter. So their characterization of the interaction is just that, their characterization, not fact and should not be used as the truth in anyway.
    – user177800
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 17:19
  • 1
    @feelingunwelcome sure thing
    – user241244
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 17:30
  • 3
    I see your point but I definitely agree with OP's arguments. It's not fair to demonize old contributors to make SO more beginner-friendly.
    – CFV
    Commented Dec 27, 2018 at 19:41
  • "What makes you think you can distinguish in an instant, whether someone posted crap on purpose not willing to read any advice on asking?" Typically, because they have done something that they would know not to do had they read the advice, and persist in doing that thing after being pointed at the advice repeatedly. Or because they have obviously copied and pasted a homework assignment, with no attempt to even ask a question (only posting the problem statement). Commented Jun 15, 2021 at 5:32
  • 3
    "They have a question and want an answer for that as fast and as profound as possible." It is explicitly not part of Stack Overflow's purpose to answer questions promptly. Commented Jun 15, 2021 at 5:33

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