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I'm very hesitant to ask this. I hope it won't be interpreted as me trying to make some kind of statement or encourage people to do something or other. I'm not talking about my own opinions on any of the various controversial stuff at all, and I'm not judging anyone for feeling however they feel about things. I also wouldn't be surprised if it was closed as primarily opinion based. But the question has been bothering me for weeks and I have to at least try.

Every time I visit meta I see so many angry people. I'm not asking why people are angry, we've all read all about that and I don't think it's necessary to rehash it much to address what I'm wondering about. I feel like I've gotten to know meta regulars a bit over the last few years by reading their posts and comments. Some folks have always been kinda grumpy and pessimistic, but it seems like more and more people who weren't always like that are moving in that direction. Along with the negativity there's an increasing tone of hopelessness in the discussions. I don't think I'm imagining that. Some people have already left.

I'm curious why everyone who feels that way hasn't. Judged by the way people talk, it seems like there would have been a mass exodus by now. Is it like, you've invested so much time and energy here and you don't want it to have been a waste so you're stubbornly clinging to hope that things will eventually be more like you think they should be? Or do you feel there's still something here that makes it worthwhile to stay even though you disagree with everything the company does and you're angry all the time?

I know there's not really a correct answer to this, and I'm sure everyone has their own reasons, but I feel like there's something I'm missing when so many people keep hanging around here even though they apparently hate it. I think there must be some common sentiment I just don't understand and I hope someone can help me understand it.

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    I keep typing "m"+enter in my address bar. Muscle memory.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jun 28, 2019 at 23:26
  • 23
    During my first year I’ve stayed because the site became addictive; I loved to help people! Next, it was certain milestones, like some tag badge or a specific privilege. Currently, I’m mostly active on Meta to post my “Cross-site post on Meta.SE” comments all over the place, and I’m not so active on main, because of the lack of time; mostly I’ll vote to close as off-topic / dupe anyway. Right now, because of e.g. the new home page or the deleted research answer I’m not convinced I’ll stay… Commented Jun 28, 2019 at 23:35
  • 13
    My guess for others would be that the rate of decline has increased very rapidly as of late. Probably so rapidly that people are more alarmed (the opposite of the frog boiling problem) and want to speak out about it. If nothing changes, as it won't, even the loudest and angriest will just end up leaving. I stay because I'm not that emotionally invested in the site. I'm sad that it's getting worse but neither surprised nor particularly riled up about it. But I'm also a very casual user - it would be much more personal to me if I had committed so much of myself to the site as some have.
    – HFBrowning
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 0:13
  • 136
    If you had asked this a week ago, I would have been able to write a good answer. It used to be that, despite the growing pains and issues, this was a site with a vision that I fundamentally believed in, that I helped grow and steer, and that I thought I could continue to grow and steer in a positive direction. Nothing is perfect, but SO was so much better than the alternatives. Now that the home page has been replaced with a giant advertising banner and free, public Q&A has effectively been hidden from view, I am rethinking my position. I am now wondering for myself why I stay.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 0:41
  • 124
    The anger I have now comes from feeling tricked, duped, betrayed, lied to, ignored, and helpless. It also comes from feeling like we're right on the edge of something great, but being held back because of stupid decisions. That kind of thing always tends to make me angry. As for why I stick around, it's a combination of feeling like it can still be fixed and the sunk-cost fallacy. I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is not as angry about this as I am, because even after having taken some time to reflect on it, calm down, reconsider from multiple angles, etc., I still can't accept it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 1:50
  • 57
    @CodyGray it's just disappointing. All that effort and dedication. What for? The site has more money than sense atm, but that won't last long. They have people who are disconnected from the programming community and the actual appeal of this site that made it was it was/is making decisions. They need to listen to Shog. I don't feel I can comment further without opening some can of worms.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 1:59
  • 105
    I'm here because I like to watch empires burn.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 3:43
  • 13
    I can feel that I have begun the process of leaving. But I have been here for over 7 years, visiting is part of my morning routine, like reading the news. I am not gone yet because I wait for a reaction from SO. It will be too late, it will contain the usual apology about it being too late (those reactions always do), but I want to read it. That's the only thing left, I stopped participating in anything. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 4:36
  • 23
    I don't feel anger, I feel a kind of tiredness. It's not just the fault of the site, it is more of a lifelong experience with how things can decline due to a lack of communication. Seeing it happen again is demotivating. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 4:40
  • 26
    Meta is negative because we're missing features, and because we're negative, we're not getting new features. Kinda ironic if you ask me. The problem is that while the community wants new moderation tools, we're instead getting a new homepage for anonymous users that seem more designed to scare them off than get new users. As a result, users leave. There's no point in trying to make a difference when the people who, at the end of the day have the final say, don't do anything with the meta input they get. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 9:12
  • 25
    I'm waiting for SO to do like Wikipedia, and become a non-profit organization. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 10:35
  • 11
    @πάνταῥεῖ We could sit down, write 100 posts, and threaten to leave, on the day (all users with 500+ reputation (reviewers)), if things not immediately change... No, not very realistic, but could've worked. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 10:55
  • 14
    Looking at some of what's coming out in the answers (and some comments) this was a good question to ask. Thank you. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 15:35
  • 22
    @Jarrod Some pretty serious accusations in that last comment: moderators lying and gaslighting? Where did this happen? Can you provide any evidence? Was it a community-elected moderator, or a Stack Exchange employee? Both carry diamonds, but they answer to different people and seem to have rather different perspectives nowadays.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 6:40
  • 12
    I don't know of any better alternatives.
    – Taplar
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 12:44

28 Answers 28

140

Trying to consider it objectively, at this point I'd mainly say inertia and the force of habit. If I were to discover a good alternative, I'd be gone. I've lost my emotional ties with the site concept over the course of the past year. I remain active only peripherally and don't consciously invest as much time in curation as it appears the "Powers" aren't really interested in having the site curated for quality, anymore...

I've been supporting people on-line and moderating since the mid-90's, starting with CompuServe, then the newsgroups Microsoft migrated to. When Office development moved to the MSDN forums (and the dev teams were active there) that's where I went. A few years ago I found out the dev teams (Office JS) were moving to "the place where professional developers want to be" - Stack Overflow.

That's how I ended up here. After discovering the Q&A and moderation philosophy I became "hooked". I also liked the much higher standards for questions (especially after slogging through what was showing up on MSDN, where there is no "quality filter") which meant I could really concentrate on finding answers to unusual topics.

Sadly, SO is now not much better than MSDN was when I moved over... Not only the quality of the questions, but also unannounced reduction of meaningful interaction with the site owners. (We used to have useful dialogs with MS, back in the day... )

Edit: Gimby's answer points out that the question actually asks about why one stays on Meta... I actually find the answers in reference to the main site interesting, enlightening and even encouraging. But the reason I come to meta is to remain informed. I wouldn't phrase it as "stay on Meta", however!

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    My first questions on this website were of generally low quality. I misunderstood a few concepts I learned from other websites, and I had a high need for help with simple solutions to stupid problems. I felt bad for considering to post such questions, but looking at the main questions page motivated me. Saying this site is for professionals doesn't matter, when the homepage (now questions) is filled with garbage. Unless things get fixed, people will continue to post such questions, and get offended by bad reception. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 10:48
  • 1
    I identify with not understanding the site concept, originally, @Andreas although I started from the answering side of things. When something points me back to an old answer I shudder when I see some of them... And often take the time to up-grade (especially "link-only" contributions!) From such origins, the people who stay and make the site come :-) But belief in the concept and a certain amount of passion need to be there in order for them to voluntarily spend hours in curation and helping. Getting the "formula" for that is the problem... Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 11:05
  • 1
    After last time I upgraded an old question, it got downvoted again. I'll go through them again, upgrading and possibly take down some of them. It also shouldn't be so hard replacing the new homepage with a document explaining the website to new people. Today's ways of telling new users about the concepts, rules, expectations and requirements, are too bad, simply because there's not a direct link to them; they're hidden all over the place. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 11:10
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    This makes an important point. There's a lot of help for new users to ask questions, but somehow it's not working well enough. Some people don't care, but many do care and think they're asking ok questions. There's often a good faith effort on both sides but it's not enough. This is the sort of problem that calls for brainstorming. You've got requirements and constraints. Communicate and enforce standards and be welcoming. Stop seeing them as competing, contradictory concerns. That's how you move forward. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 12:48
  • 3
    A problem is coming into focus. There are people frustrated with problems. I'm sure they're rightly frustrated. I'm all for complaining. But when it's time for solutions, sometimes what you need is to brainstorm. That means considering anything and everything, even bad ideas. The format of this site is diametrically opposed to brainstorming. It quickly shoots down anything that doesn't echo the complaint. Every idea is immediately good or bad. It's biased toward reacting rather than considering and discussing. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:59
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    @ScottHannen (comment 2/2:) Your two last sentences don't seem correct to me. It is very well possible to create these kind of threads, where answers are ideas, and the comments to them discuss positive and negative sides of them. The issue is more that SO doesn't listen, and instead of fixing the quality, they spend time at turning homepages into ads, and removing "minimal understanding" as a requirement to post questions on SO (not MSO). Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:23
  • @Andreas - I found this question. It's constructive, but it's more high-level. Specific ideas seem to appear as individual questions, but that's not quite the same as brainstorming. Brainstorming starts with a question followed by answers. There might be questions like that, but I don't see them. Maybe that part of the discussion is further back in the past than I realize. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:48
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    @ScottHannen I've come across a few of them, but the main complaint I see people make, like here, is that SO is blatantly not listening to anything, anymore. Not strange we don't see brainstorming questions anymore, then. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:50
  • 6
    I'm realizing just how "meta" this is. I'm really looking at this from an outsider's perspective. The question at this point isn't about how to solve the problems. The question is how to have discussions about how to solve the problems. I say that while recognizing the frustration that apparently SO hasn't listened. IOW, it looks to me like regardless of how or why, the parties involved have gotten to a point where frustration has overtaken communication. It's almost like you need marriage counseling. How do you move forward? Venting is normal, but venting won't get you there. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:56
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    Marriage counseling is probably a bad analogy because the relationship isn't that two-sided. The user community is much more on the giving end of this, which is why they expect more from the site. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:58
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    "If I were to discover a good alternative, I'd be gone" - this, so much this.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 14:49
  • 2
    @Andreas "replacing the new homepage with a document explaining the website to new people" - like the tour? Although that could probably be improved a bit, especially with some links. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 9:25
  • 1
    @Dukeling No. I must admit I've never seen that before... Am I blind? That tour page seems like an ad for the site. It doesn't say anything about the quality required, or how advanced we expect questions to be. It neither warns about bad reception of questions, and how they should be formatted. It has a short sentence on the top saying it's for professionals. None of the rest goes on to explain what that means. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 9:35
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    @Andreas The tour is one of the options under the "?" in the top bar (which is still not very visible). I just figured that out / remembered that; I first went looking in the help center, because it used to be hidden away there. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 9:52
  • 3
    Y'know, we do have the know-how to make an alternative to Stack Overflow. I don't know anywhere near enough about management to say we could keep it better, but technically speaking, we could build our own. We could probably make it better -- implement all the systems we want but don't have, etc. Maybe it'd be worth trying.
    – Nic
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 20:26
88

Because to me the site is still good at fulfilling its original purpose; even if it's starting to head off in a direction that I may not completely agree with.

I stuck with this site because I enjoy passing on things I've learned, and the controlled structure of SO was far less noisy and more to the point than what I was used to at the time (Yahoo Answers).

I don't think that has changed, and I have yet to see a viable alternative to SO. If I search for a programming question, I'm met with two options:

  • Some forum posts that I need to dig through that might not even have an answer.

  • SO that requires much less digging and searching, and usually has answers.

To me, at least for now, the site still serves its intended purpose well, and I'll continue to contribute until that's either no longer the case, or they do something so stupid that I can't stand behind them any longer.

Their emphasis on growth over quality control is unfortunate, but the quality here is still far better than anywhere else I've seen, so I'm staying for now.

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    I don't understand why they can't focus more at quality, rather than expanding. SO is an extremely common website in the programming world. DuckDuckGo, (others?) show SO answers on the right of the results page, and often, 3-5/10 results are SO links. I almost never use SO's own search bar to find answers; I almost always Duck them up, and almost always land on SO. It's as if they want to replace the experts with non-programmers... Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:29
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    @Andreas Yep. SO is such a "family name" when it comes to programmers, branding shouldn't be an issue. I understand their need for income, but I wonder how much of the recent expansion is required to meet that goal. In my eyes, they're trying too hard; but I also obviously don't have the full story of what's going on behind the scenes. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:56
  • "family name", "branding", "income", "expansion", "behind the scenes"... I left a comment-answer up on the question, about what I'm waiting for. It left some replies, so I'm not copying it over here. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:57
  • 1
    @Andreas It would certainly be nice if SO could become non-profit, but I agree with navta (I can't easily copy those characters on mobile): I think that's long gone. Unless SO becomes a separate entity entirely from SE and Careers and Teams, it's not going to happen. And it won't become a separate entity because SO is free advertising for their products. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:02
  • 1
    I should've written SE, not SO, in that comment; I did mean SE. It should very well be possible to make it all work; the hardest part is probably regulation on Careers and Teams. But yes, as πάνταῥεῖ claims, the leadership aren't like the original Wikipedians. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:06
  • 6
    FYI, the current rate for new questions on Stack Overflow is 9000 per day (on a weekday), about 75 times higher than on Ask Ubuntu and about 40 times higher than on Super User (none of which are small sites - in fact, they are ranked 3 and 2). Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 11:50
  • 1
    Well said. I've been navigating the interwebs a lot studying Arduino, and it's still a jungle out there. Landing on a SO or SE page is always a relief.
    – brasofilo
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 1:49
  • 1
    I agree with you but TBH in the past years GitHub issues became the second most common and helpful results when I search for a solution. Especially after they added reactions because it is way easier to find useful answers that usually build on top of each other.
    – totymedli
    Commented Jul 9, 2019 at 1:41
73

I stated my reasons to stay and keep curating in comments and posts elsewhere (for example here) where it was rather tangential to respective discussions but here it seems to apply directly:

I want Stack Overflow to keep helping people like me - those who get their answers here after dumping their question into google search box. SO did it fairly well so far and I wouldn't want to lose that help. I don't want my search results polluted with useless solutions to homework dumps. I don't want it to be flooded with thousand answers to single simple question about NPE / NRE. And I do what I can to keep SO content the way it is helpful to me...

If someone feels that the above sounds selfish, well, yes it is selfish. I am in it because it helps me keep a nice job with good pay.

Maybe my personal needs somehow clash with current political or marketing priorities of the company that holds the site. If this is so, I honestly don't care. I just want the site to keep serving my needs as it did for about ten years now - helping do my job by providing easy-to-find and useful solutions for my coding problems.

To me, Stack Overflow is a tool. I use this tool in my job and I just need to keep it sharp.

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    ^^^ is my motivation to curate content as strong as that of help vampires who keep polluting it, dumping their homework and creating fake accounts to circumvent question bans? I guess it is
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:49
  • 2
    "I use this tool in my job and I just need to keep it sharp." According to the activity tab, you created >230 answers and asked 0 questions on StackOverflow and you created >250 answers and asked 0 questions on SoftwareEngineering. My guess is that you probably don't really need the tool that much, at the very least it profits more from you than you from it. Please don't misunderstand, I just wanted to say that I think you may act more selfless than selfish, which is rather admirable but somewhat different from the answer. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 15:56
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    @Trilarion I don't know if number of questions asked are a good indicator of the value of SO to someone looking for answers. I use the tool quite a lot myself, but you can't tell from my profile because I usually don't have to ask a new question to get the answer I need. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:20
  • @Don'tPanic I agree that it's only part of the picture. Could be that someone else already asked everything one wanted to know. Of course I have absolutely nothing against not asking anything. Just wanted to say that it might mean that the price to keep the tool sharp may be much higher than what it is really worth to one. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 19:38
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    @Trilarion I use SO few times a day average for last several years and I think number of my questions for which I found answers here exceed number of my answers by few orders of magnitude. I don't believe all questions are answered but it just happened that so far all what I needed was. Which isn't surprising because my needs are typically quite simple
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 21:20
57

I'm here for professional and pedagogical reasons. I teach programming in certain fields (Swift and iOS); I need to know what questions users have so that I can make sure I'm covering them in my teaching materials. Also, there are Stack Overflow users who know more than I do about some areas, and I learn from their comments and answers. And once in a while I do ask a question and get a good answer.

That's why I joined and that's why I stay. For me, the site for all its faults still fulfills its purpose.

0
50

Someone's gotta downvote the garbage questions and answers.

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    I'm a simple man. I see someone protecting the downvote, I upvote.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 11:18
  • @E_net4 goes to Main: Is that a meme? Explain, please. Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 13:03
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen It was this meme.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 15:31
37

SE's design and moderation strategy avoids many of the pitfalls and failures of other sites.

It is more efficient for me to look for information on SO than other sites, and I feel like I can improve content sometimes when I find problems.

In my opinion Jeff and Joel had a lot of good ideas. SE and SO can encourage high quality and up to date answers (other times it gives us +1000/-100 scored wrong answers on high visibility questions, but I won't go into that here).

Here are some of the things that keep me coming back:

Posts can be commented on

Most of the time comments sections on other sites are rather poor; they might only allow comments for a week after the information is posted, or nobody uses comments even when the content has serious issues.

I would say the most important use of comments is to warn users of problems with answers. There's been many times I've found useless, misleading, or even harmful content on other sites, but there was nothing I could do to help others who stumbled onto the page.

As a reader I always read all the comments and I had a much richer experience because of what I found; I've found many useful references, and avoided many mistakes. In a perfect world most of this would be edited into the post, but unfortunately this rarely happens from my experience (it's still better than the information not being there, though!).

I also like leaving comments to reference other posts, or other resources I've found; it helps future me (if I revisit the topic) and I hope it also helps out future visitors. It's a small thing, but it's an easy way to contribute while I'm researching something.

Old questions can be answered

If I find a question in my Google searching that isn't answered, or isn't answered very well, I can add my own answer even if the post is many years old.

A lot of sites "lock" questions after they receive an answer, which means Google will show these sites in search results even if the content there hasn't been maintained since the OP got their answer.

Content that can't be preserved is generally discouraged

If you look elsewhere on the Internet (e.g., with OpenGL programming), there are a lot of replies on forums that aren't very useful.

For example, all of these types of answers just waste my time when searching:

  • Link-only posts to sites that aren't archived
  • Posts that just say "Google [some topic]" (doesn't help if Google results change)
  • Posts that say "Go on John Smith's Blog" (what is the URL? I can't even archive.org that)

Unfortunately content like that is very common on non-SE sites.

Useful tag wikis

I think tag wikis are a very underrated feature of SE. I have found useful references and unbiased, up to date information that would have taken several SE questions or several different blog posts to find. Official documentation will very rarely acknowledge third party, unofficial sites, but tag wikis pull in pages from all over the internet, which makes them more interesting and useful.

SE generally doesn't intentionally make my browsing experience worse

SE has been doing a bit worse on this lately, but it's still far better than sites with:

  • Paywalled bait and switch content (a promising Google search result followed by "members only")
  • Auto-playing video
  • Sponsored "related" content that isn't actually related
  • SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER!!! popups that show up one second after I visit the page for the first time,
  • INSTALL OUR APP!!! buttons that hide 1/4 of my phone screen

SE is less likely to have (unrecoverable) link rot than other sites

Some sites like to change their entire URL scheme every year, but SE has resisted that urge and because of that, I can generally count on a post being there even years later. Even if the post gets deleted I can find it using archive.org, or worst case scenario, SEDE.

Companies go out of business, mergers happen, or Microsoft mysteriously makes every single page redirect to a generic "Windows" landing page with no indication whatsoever that it wasn't always that way (!), but SO has generally been very stable, more so than the official sources most of the time.

For me, SE sometimes acts like a more permanent reference than most of the Internet. It's stable because there's a complete revision history on every post and it's generally predictable.

Less copy/paste content than other sites

One issue I run into a lot is, when I search for something especially obscure, I tend to find multiple blogs that just directly quoted the exact same source, which pollutes my search results. I would guess that this happens when there is a "new hot trend" that many authors want to cover and they were all very impressed by some new language feature or something.

SE questions that ask about the same thing tend to be marked as duplicates. I have found false positives and negatives for duplicates over the years, but the system is working for the most part. Also a "possible duplicate of" comment on an open question helps even if the vote doesn't go through; I check the linked post.

Duplicate or near-duplicate answers happen somewhat frequently on SE, but I find duplicate answers to be far easier to filter out than reading the 10th filler-y blog post only to find that the part I'm really interested in is the same section copy/pasted from the 9th blog.

This also happens with books, which is even more irritating, because I paid money for the book based on a limited amazon preview, only to find that the part I hoped would go into more detail is just a near copy/paste of the man pages!

Any post can be edited (eventually)

The suggested edit system is very flawed and doesn't scale, but it's far better than nothing.

If something very bad happens like somebody's personal blog gets replaced with malware links, I, or somebody else can flag it and it can be fixed. This gives me confidence that SO is a bit safer than other sites I read.

I also encounter a lot of pages on the Internet with utterly broken formatting. I'd guess it's because they used a layout scheme that didn't age well or something. SE doesn't have that problem, and stuff like that gets edited out usually.

No helpdesk script answers

This is more related to sites like Super User, but I figure I'll put this here,

If you browse some sites (e.g., some Microsoft Q/A sites) there is seemingly always at least one answer telling you something like "try rebooting your computer" or "reinstall Windows", which are pretty much never useful. To make things worse they are usually forcibly accepted by the answerer, useful or not.

No blatant self-promotion answers

Other sites have answers that promote a library, or some framework and provide no other solutions. Or they fail to mention what the limitations of the library are. I am generally very skeptical when browsing a company's blog, and I always try and find at least a couple of sources before making a decision.

Also, some other sites have a lot of content that seems to be more of a publicity thing for the author. Content that exists for the sole purpose of demonstrating what the author knows or has experienced aren't completely useless, but they can have a lot of fluff in them at times (and they read like a sales brochure which gets tiring).

No sign-in required to view content

Many sites require you to sign in to download code. This is usually just a minor inconvenience thanks to throwaway e-mail accounts, but it is nice that SO doesn't require that.

All information is text based

Sometimes I'm googling something and I find a result that seems helpful, but it's buried somewhere in a very long video; SE posts are always text that I can scan quickly.

Note: This is my first meta post, but I'm not new to either meta or SO. Please disregard the "New Contributor" thing.

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  • 2
    These are just well-known advantages of the SE Q&A format but doesn’t really explain why you personally still use the site although Stack Overflow Inc. has made some decisions in the past that members of the community think are not the best – this is what the question is about.
    – idmean
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 15:34
  • 3
    @idmean I have to respectfully disagree, it's very rare to find a site that doesn't consider content as anything other than a short term goal. The way they organize their content and discourage poor answers are the design features that keep me coming back. There are SE clones out there but they tend to be focused on one product and managed by that company, and they have a much smaller moderation staff so they can't keep the quality high.
    – jrh
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 15:39
  • 6
    Also, I guess if you're saying "it sounds like you like SO's QA format", well, you're right. I like some stuff about SO's implementation. I have deliberately left out what I don't like for the most part (it's not what was asked). I stay here because the site has some features I like, despite some rather strange recent decisions. I think the goal of creating a knowledge repository was a good one.
    – jrh
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 15:50
  • 4
    "No helpdesk script answers": well, only briefly, until we nuke them :) (stackoverflow.com/questions/14513572/…) Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 18:44
  • 11
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre Typical MSDN Q/A pair: Q: "My code to write data to a csv file isn't working (...), how do I fix it?" A: "It sounds like third party software has corrupted your system, you should box up your computer and send it back for a refund, then fumigate your house for bugs, reset all of your passwords, change all of your phone numbers, eject all of your earthly belongings into the sun, and become a monk for the rest of your days. If you found this answer helpful please mark it as the answer, please (marked as answer by answerer)."
    – jrh
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 20:10
  • Also if anyone wants to know what I think doesn't work in SE let me know; the quick version is, the Roomba is my least favorite thing about this place.
    – jrh
    Commented Jul 9, 2019 at 23:31
  • I don't know where you stand on it, but I think the Roomba should be more aggressive. It's far from my least favorite thing about this place, though.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 10, 2019 at 15:57
  • @TylerH the thing I don't like about it is, it deletes zero scored "inactive" posts; I'll type something up about it in more detail tonight and throw it on a gist. Alternatively if I could opt into seeing deleted questions and have them be indexed by a decent search I'd be okay with that.
    – jrh
    Commented Jul 10, 2019 at 16:34
  • 1
    @TylerH here you go, I thought it over and the Roomba actually isn't my least favorite part of this site, there's a deeper cause.
    – jrh
    Commented Jul 10, 2019 at 22:26
  • 3
    Also, another thing I'd like to add to my gist: A one on one help site has every reason to optimize for user growth (it shows that there are volunteers and users that trust the platform), but a knowledge repository does not need that as much, instead it seems like it should be optimizing for view growth, user growth on a documentation site is like a job posting and should have a purpose, e.g.,, "what needs to be maintained", "what new topics do we want to cover", etc. Or a more practical example, an encyclopedia's end goal is readers, a tutoring service seeks out customers and teachers.
    – jrh
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 14:16
  • @jrh Thanks for writing that up. I think I agree with the overall sentiment in your comment and your full gist. One big reason is the disparity of where people are coming from -- aside from the big gulf between how much research/effort some people put into their questions vs others, I think the issue of a high quality repository is hurt by not distinguishing at all between the people who come here to ask a question in general that they want to solve, and the people who come here because they need something working now for work (or homework) and they don't care about others' experience, OFC.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 21:37
  • It's hard to say "we only want questions from people who care about the value of their questions to others". The site does say "SO isn't for you, it's for the next person" which is frankly ridiculous to expect anyone to believe when there's no filtration at the door regarding it. And it's not like asking the question "are you trying to get something fixed or are do you have an interesting question/problem you'd like an answer/solution to", and then turning away anyone who asked the former, would work... people would quickly just learn to blindly click the second option.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 21:40
  • @jrh I've bookmarked and starred that gist. Thanks again for writing up your thoughts, I think they're pretty spot on (at least, the 1st part. I haven't gotten through the Roomba section yet)
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 21:44
  • @TylerH it's my opinion that the founders didn't help this situation when they speculated in some blog post (I forget which one) that they could build a knowledge repository using questions written by users looking to solve one specific problem. I think maybe they were worried that there weren't enough devs who actually enjoyed writing documentation so they invited anyone with a question to post and hoped most problems would be good documentation; they aren't.
    – jrh
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 22:02
  • @jrh Indeed. And later on down the road, the attempt at SO Docs was the next obvious iteration of an attempt at solving that problem. We know how that fared...
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 22:02
30

This reminds me about a game I once played. In the year before I deinstalled it, people were very angry with it, and 90% of the comments generated on the website, were (very) negative. Things got very expensive (time and money), and many claimed the developers had gotten greedy, me included. It took me a year to leave, and many others constantly complained. Some of the other commenters asked: "why don't you just stop playing the game?"

People had spent an excessive amount of time in that game, investing in it, and paid real money, some quite much, at it. This sounds an awful lot like what people have done on SO, doesn't it? After all the years Stack Overflow has existed, many people have put much time into generating what it is today, seeking to maintain the quality of the website, and help others. All of this has also helped make SE what it is today; the works of these people has generated revenue for SE. It's been an important factor, making it possible to establish over 150 other sites. Now, people start feeling they've been taken advantage of, as several of the other negative posts on Meta say. SO both has been, and is, a community and family of developers.

You don't just kill a part of yourself. You don't leave your family behind.

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  • 2
    I'm curious. What was the game, if you don't mind mentioning? (I have a few guesses)
    – Marc.2377
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:37
  • 4
    @Marc.2377 I originally pasted the link into the answer, but chose to remove it. I didn't want to make it seem like spam, or to be insulting. warrobots.com/en Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:39
  • 7
    It's not really the joyful comment I'm used to write, but sadly yes, sometimes people kill parts of themselves, and can leave a family that doesn't even listen to them anymore. As for people feeling taken advantage of, I more and more think that if the company want to go "all for money" and not work on moderating tools, they can also consider hiring curators. Don't want to add my sadness to the global one, but one feels sometimes what's the point looking for this blatant dupe when it feels pointless and a rep harvester will have 5 upvotes in 10sec?
    – Kaddath
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 10:08
  • sunken costs :>
    – Rainb
    Commented Nov 30, 2019 at 21:55
  • @Rainb Just retested it for 2 weeks. It's far worse. Commented Feb 14, 2020 at 7:16
28

Because the site is still useful, and the CC license means that if the company ever does something to truly ruin it, the community can organise to totally replatform all of the content.

I still regularly find useful answers here to real problems that I have. I still regularly get upvotes on my content, which signals to me that my work is still consistently helping others. There's lots and lots of valuable content here, and ultimately none of the bad things that we get annoyed about on Meta destroy that content's value.

I think the Meta community sometimes makes too much out of the company's failure to improve the platform in the way we want. The core functionality needed for Stack Overflow to generate and surface useful content is very small: posting, editing, commenting, voting, and some mod tools to suspend bad actors and undo vandalism. Everything on top of that - both stuff we've got, like review queues, tags, and so on, and stuff we'd like to have - is a nice-to-have. No matter how frustrating it may be that some improvements to the site that we'd like haven't been made, and that some decisions have been made that we disagree with, it's not like platform has gotten worse on net over the last 5 or 10 years.

I also think the Meta community treats the inflow of terrible questions as more of an existential crisis than it really is. Those questions usually don't get highly SEOed and so don't really do any harm, except to users who are sitting on the homepage looking for stuff to answer. Personally, I almost never look at the homepage, so that doesn't directly affect me. I naturally stumble across enough useful questions to contribute to just through Googling for stuff for my own purposes that I don't need the homepage.

Pretty much the only thing that would make me want to leave is if I was worried that the content I contribute wouldn't survive. Ever since the "welcoming" drive began, I've worried a bit about this; my comments criticising others' answers are perhaps as valuable as or more valuable than my actual answers, and the ongoing crusade against mean comments makes me wonder if they'll one day be purged. And since the site made the choice to punish the whole IPS community over a mildly politically incorrect question that enraged some Twitter feminists, I've worried about how far they're ultimately willing to go to placate SJW outrage. But so far, deletion of actual useful technical content to appease the mob doesn't seem to be an imminent threat.

And if a site-ruining disaster ever happens, all our content here is CC-licensed and available via torrents, so we - the community - can set up a library of the old content, and start trying to migrate to another platform. The success of shady sites at spinning up Stack Overflow clones with all our content - and occasionally SEOing them above legitimate Stack Overflow results with the same content - is, from one perspective, encouraging. It means that there is a path - not an easy one, but a viable one - by which we can preserve this community, its norms, and the content it has produced, even in the face of truly insane and destructive actions from the company that make the original Stack Overflow non-viable. (Such actions, I note, still don't seem imminent or probable.)

Which means that I still remain comfortable that, by answering questions here, I am contributing to a library of programming knowledge that helps other programmers will continue to help them into the future. As long as that's true, I will stay, and I will be happy on net - no matter how many little things the company, the mods, or my fellow users may do to annoy me.

0
25

What makes me stay is confusing, at best. For one, I admit that I am used to checking out SO on a regular basis, kind of like browsing some social network. But other than that, there is a real benefit from sticking around, because I still have some faith in the corner of the Rust programming language and associated technologies.

The SO Rust chatroom, in particular, has been a nice place to keep up to date with incoming questions with the tag, organise our tag curation activity, share our own projects in Rust, establish collaborations, or just hang out. There sure are other places to talk about Rust on the web but so far SO has provided a rendezvous point for enthusiast developers with the common interest of keeping a repository of quality questions and answers. And at that, we've been employing our best efforts to keep every post clean and up to date, while emphasizing duplicates to centralise information, all thanks to the awesome folks around the tag (mandatory honourable mention to Shepmaster, our #1 top contributor). Still being a tag with relatively low traffic, I feel that these efforts have been somewhat worthwhile.

I cannot tell whether things will continue this way, even around this tag. It is likely that the number of daily questions will increase, to the point of becoming as unmanageable as most popular tags. It might even be that this will no longer be the right place to create a library of questions and answers for Rust. But while we're here and we have what it takes to keep going, we'll continue doing what we think is best for the tag, and for the Rust community in general.

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    Encouraging, to learn it's working for someone :-) Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 15:32
  • 1
    Thanks for sharing this. It would probably be more difficult in the Android tag (or maybe it is already happening?). Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 11:39
23

Because I've been here since almost the beginning and have more hours invested in the site than in anything else I've ever done. I may not always be the best at it, but I'm a bridge between where the site needs to go to remain relevant and what made it such an enormous success in the first place. A big part of who I am comes from what I've done here over the years; this is probably going to be the last job I have, and I need to do it well.

I started out as a user, then I was one of the first elected moderators, then they hired me. I'm now in a position where I have to advocate for the community to the company, and the company to the community, and that's frequently not a cozy place. We evolved from a company where the chief checker-in of code was also the front face of the company to the community to an organization with many teams and stakeholders where things just naturally take .. longer, often to the point of exhausting people's patience, especially when priorities coming from the business end of things need to cut in line at the cafeteria and gobble up all the pastries.

A while back ago, I wrote a brain dump on thoughts I had surrounding patterns in questions we see on the main site. What I didn't see that was right in front of me is that programming is maturing as a profession just like medicine, law, and other really in-demand professions where practitioners stand to make a profound impact on people's lives. You have doctors, and then you have, occasionally, great ones. You have lawyers, and then you have, occasionally, the brilliant ones. That doesn't mean the rest are inept or incompetent, in fact they are usually great at their jobs, but they're driven more by choice than passion and that's a big reason why they clash with a community that was started almost exclusively by those that are driven by passion for the craft of programming.

As much as I fall on my face, I'm going to be a piece of the bridge that helps this site reach a place where those that aim for competence thrive and feel a sense of belonging, comfortably, somewhat in the shadows of those predisposed to brilliance.

And that's profoundly f***ing hard, but it's why I'm still here.

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    Could you please try to clarify what you mean by "a place where those that aim for competence thrive and feel a sense of belonging, comfortably, somewhat in the shadows of those predisposed to brilliance"? With all the baggage around the subject I'd rather make sure I understand what you're saying. Are those who "aim for competence" vs. "are predisposed to brilliance" actually "new people we want to draw in with all the welcoming things and new contributor indicators" vs. "the people who have been making the site a success all these years", respectively? Or do you mean something else? Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:09
  • 8
    An implicit assumption I read in your analogy is that the brilliant ones will stick here for passion alone, and so nothing needs to be done for their sake. I... don't think it's grounded in reality so much. But here's a +1 for carrying the weight of both worlds on your shoulders, can't be easy. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:09
  • 1
    "an organization with many teams and stakeholders where things just naturally take .. longer" This may not really be a good thing. Maybe the organization should try to remain as agile as possible. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:16
  • 5
    @StoryTeller There's a lot I didn't write in there because, well, there's just way more to write than space or time to do it, but it's not a roadmap. It's just why I haven't looked for another job. I certainly know that people must have their needs validated and (more often than not) met. And this isn't really a space to talk about how things are flawed, it's just my take on my own purpose and usefulness.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:21
  • 1
    I've only been around a few years. When I hear stuff about mass exodus, etc., I think, that sucks, I just got here. I don't think anything that bad will happen. Things go off course, courses get corrected. It's okay. Reading this increases my confidence. I believe in venting and complaining some, but what matters is that we always keep an eye on the path forward. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:44
  • @TimPost I followed the link - that somewhat pre-dates my time here... But the points under discussion (quality, nice/welcoming, etc.) do not seem to have changed - just the tone is more civilized; there seems to be less friction. Question to you: Do you still feel the same about the topics, or has your viewpoint on what is acceptable quality shifted in the last five years? Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 20:33
  • 2
    I'm glad you answered, @Tim. I was thinking about upset meta commenters when I wrote the question, but I know that can't feel good from your perspective either. Your job looks impossible to me, honestly. Trying to figure out how to satisfy the various competing interests you're faced with must mean constantly dealing with unpleasant "lesser of two evils" type choices. I admire you for being able to do it. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 23:01
  • 5
    This "brilliance" stuff- I don't buy it. It just sounds to me that you are trying to make the veteran users feel good about themselves so you could keep pushing your "welcoming" agenda. I think all the fuss biols to lazy people that don't want to invest their time in order to solve their problems, while instead, trying to waste ours for free. Posting dupes because one doesn't know the termonology is totally fine, but if I can take ones questions title and copy/paste it into Google and get 10 relevant results, that just mean that he is lazy and rude, which in turn makes me much less welcoming Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 20:47
  • 5
    @DavidArenburg You said "This "brilliance" stuff- I don't buy it. It just sounds to me that you are trying to make the veteran users feel good about themselves so you could keep pushing your "welcoming" agenda." Did you really mean to sound that hostile and combative? Honest question.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 3:54
  • 9
    TBH, I have a special issue with your particular approach regarding the welcoming policy, in particular this. I feel that unlike Shog, for instance, you are pushing this welcoming stuff at all cost without consulting the community, without any sentiments. I was quite surprised that you decided to answer this question in somewhat more civil manner, but I guess my grudge was speaking, rather my brain. Now that I look at the comment, it indeed looks pretty rude- sorry. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 6:55
  • 1
    This is a nice piece, and I appreciate you writing it. I remember reading your "brain dump", and remember thinking that it hadn't occurred to me that our industry had changed.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 15:39
  • 5
    @TimPost I honestly don't think David's comment is hostile at all. Certainly, it's not as hostile as the underlying message of meta.stackoverflow.com/a/386617/2756409 - Take David's reply for example; you have a really difficult job, bridging two groups that want to (apparently) go two completely different directions. What I observe, though, is you often failing to take one group's preferences or feelings into consideration, and then calling them hostile/combative when they complain about that. Invalidating the feelings of your community that way is, like, an EQ response of 0.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 10, 2019 at 15:42
17

Having recently stirred up some trouble, I will say that I'm not angry at all and not really thinking of leaving. I did want to improve the site, so I posted some observations on meta and suggested some improvements. I got a lot of angry responses agreeing with what I wrote, which I wasn't quite expecting.

Like others, I started out on Usenet in the old days, tried other forums, etc. Basically, the organization here is incredible. And even before the recent changes to encourage less toxicity, it was way better than those other options I used to use. (I can't believe some of what people used to post to Usenet, nor my stupid responses to it!)

In short, I stay because I like it here. It's not perfect, and there are things some users do that I don't like. But nothing's perfect, and nothing ever will be. I don't get what others are angry about, or why others hate it here. I've even read comments by former users on sites like HackerNews, and it all strikes me as people just being mad they can't do whatever they want whenever they want. (Which is ironic given the ludicrous guidelines that HackerNews has for commenting. But I digress.)

In all, I stay because it's great. Not perfect, but very good and way better than anything else. If you're fed up with it, feel free to speak up. But if you want to be heard, I recommend doing so rationally rather than angrily. And if you can't work it out, feel free to go elsewhere or start your own site. You could even do that and keep coming back here. We'd never know!

17

I stay because

  • SE sites gives you the power to moderate the site without actually being an official moderator (and even delete posts written by official moderators and even real SE employees).
  • Of the community behind that has(d?) the power democratically influence sites official policies / rules / etc., using the good and old voting system on Meta - I must say, that Meta is truly an incredible platform for community interaction and site improvement (or chat rooms- I once created one in order to monitor the tags I personally follow, but eventually we just became good pals that having fun chatting about random topics and rant about SO new policies - which makes me keep visiting it / SO).
  • Of the content monitoring process (in a relatively effective manner) through the very same voting system. Which basically means, that unlike in numerous different forums (SE isn't a forum, I know), no one can really post c*ap without being instantly punished (I'm especially enjoying observing the live community moderation process on high traffic tags such as when a bad quality question being posted, and within seconds being downvoted into oblivion, while rep-w*ores desperately trying to answer it and simultaneously being downvoted to the oblivion too, while the question is being duped with 3 links and eventually (sometimes) being deleted- all within 3-5 minutes- a true masterpiece to watch).
    • I do agree that the system isn't perfect and it was mainly designed for the old and low traffic SO - not the huge monster it is now, but I'm not aware of anything better in the market at the moment.
  • SE is where I've pretty much learned (and still learning) everything I know in programming (as someone that haven't learnt programming at school)- so I feel obligated to keep contributing back.
  • A (desperate) hope to still find interesting questions (that aren't dupes or not reproducible) that will challenge me and I will have fun to answer.
  • SE is the only place where I feel my contribution is both monitored and really matters due to its high traffic.
  • Muscle memory.

In short, I stay because I still see a purpose / value to the site - and I feel I can contribute and make a (little) difference, but I guess that with the path SE chose for itself recently (without consulting the community that actually made it what it is today), I will eventually lose interest and leave (rage quit, more likely).

1
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    rage quit .... oh, please make sure you do that on camera and share ... ;)
    – rene
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 7:03
15

I stay because I like to help people by answering their questions. The reputation isn't bad. It even has a little bit of real-world value. But I wouldn't be able to keep doing it if I didn't feel like I was actually helping people. It's no different from getting paid to build features nobody wants. It wouldn't be satisfying.

Curating the site is important. That helps people too. But I don't do that at all. I just hear too many bad things about it. I like being happy and if I observe that people who do something are sad or angry then I don't do it because it means I won't be happy. I can be as obsessive as the next person, and if I get myself heavily involved in something dysfunctional then I'll start to see more and more negatives.

This is a volunteer activity and a hobby. I'll do it for as long as I enjoy it and feel that it's mutually beneficial. It's nice that I can do the parts I want and skip the rest. (It's not like volunteering at the Humane Society where you get to play with the dogs but you have to clean the poop, too.) That's a little bit selfish of me. I could contribute in other ways, but then I'd care more and it sounds like people who care more aren't happy right now. So I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.

4
  • So you only answer questions? No voting, etc.? Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 11:35
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen I upvote. I downvote some, but not enough. I realize that withholding a downvote is a misguided way to be nice. And after getting a gold tag badge I discovered that my duplicate suggestions took immediate effect, and that freaked me out. I'm 100% on board with anonymous downvotes. It's what works. But I've also offered some suggestions on how we could make the perception of those downvotes a little bit friendlier without any change to how we use them. Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 12:10
  • @PeterMortensen You can see from Scott's Activity page on his profile how much (or how little, in this case) he votes.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 10, 2019 at 15:58
  • @TylerH - This is definitely an area to work on. I look at enough questions when trying to figure out what to answer, so perhaps I could interact more with the ones that seem unanswerable. I like "welcoming," but I'm absorbing the problems it seems to create. I still think we can do a lot with perception without lowering standards or changing how we curate content. If we can improve that perception without changing anything about the way we downvote or close, why wouldn't we? It wouldn't solve everything. Nothing solves everything. We're thinking big when we should think small. Commented Jul 10, 2019 at 16:35
14

It provides a distraction from work that lets me do something useful for other people, and nothing better has come along quite yet. Answering a decent question is very satisfying, although the work needed to find a decent question has increased to a point that threatens to cancel out any enjoyment.

13

I'm stuck here because I haven't quite figured out what's needed to make ActivityPub work to handle Q&A, and I have a whiteboard full of notes trying to think it all through. In fact, I need to go pick up one of those fancy black glass boards to continue jotting things down...

In all honesty, though, I'm here because I'm still trying to figure out what it is I really want.

Let me explain.

Stack Overflow has matured to the point of it being a household name for developers and people in my inner circles, such that nine times out of ten, if you want an answer, you're looking through Stack Overflow posts. However, whenever I've found myself in that position of wanting an answer, I've looked through the posts and have always felt somewhat dissatisfied.

So, if I could help to improve that, somehow, then that'd be beneficial; I would spend less time searching and trying to do the filtering that the community obviously didn't do, and I'd be able to get the best answer quickly.

Stack Exchange has some serious teething issues when it comes to just about everything else related to this particular problem. The "problem" of coming across as unwelcoming isn't unique to our site, nor is it a straightforward issue to actually fix. Case in point - Ask Ubuntu had a user ask a (on the surface) silly question and the OP there decided to ragequit. I see a lot of parallels between that incident and some of the things we've said here, but no one has a clear and quick way to actually fix it, since both sides are using the platform Correctly™.

But this is the paradox that I have with the Stack Exchange platform. We are actively encouraged to make content worth keeping around, yet the people who make the content don't share our goals, which leads to...silly questions, duplicate questions, poorly researched questions, and a whole load of bad juju on whomever dare close or downvote the next blogger's "just wanna learn" question. Worse, in this position, we just lash out at people for their own ignorance, which defeats the purpose of this whole thing.

I'm not going to say that I'm still happy to be around, honestly. I visit here and there because it's a habit I've developed since 2011 and I happen to like having my consecutive days on Meta line up with when Meta Stack Overflow actually became its own Meta site.

But at the same time, I'm not going to keep that bottled up, either. I don't see any value in Stack Overflow (the company) not hearing my perspective on why I'm so frustrated with how things have gone, or where things are going.

The issue then becomes the same circumstance you may see play out in the toys section; some child is having a public facing tantrum because their parent said they can't have the thing they want. Honestly, that's what I think is going on; some of the folks on Meta are having a tantrum around what they can't have. I'm not implying that this is a bad thing; hell, I'm in the middle of one myself. But I'm trying to think about what brought me to that point, which is a unique perspective I'm privileged with that the child probably isn't.

A lot of the things we think we want to help improve Q&A aren't being delivered. Better search and better moderation tooling has been at the forefront of the requests for ages, but you could calve a glacier in the time it takes to get those feature requests in a current sprint. However, Stack Exchange needs to keep the lights on and so they're spending the lion's share of their attention on marketing the platform (e.g. Teams, Enterprise, Talent and Advertising). They likely have no choice but to do this or Stack Overflow would die. That benefits no one, since if the site were gone, then the tantrum and the better tooling become moot.

So, basically, I'm stuck in limbo. What I think I want is a site where we have a higher standard of technical questions, which doesn't involve beginner/entry-level style questions, or basic language questions. I think I want a site which discusses the intricacies of a particular framework, and asks the hard questions about it.

And I think that's what I'm having a tantrum about right now, since what I'm getting are not those kinds of questions on any meaningful level of signal.

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    Are beginner questions necessarily bad? I occasionally need to find Javascript or jQuery answers that I know are trivial to many users. Sometimes I need the same one over and over. I always find them on SO. The format is perfect. I don't want a tutorial, just how do I do this thing, and I find succinct answers. Isn't that a good thing? Or are you referring more to the type of questions people ask when they don't know how to program at all? Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 23:53
  • 5
    It's more the latter than the former, honestly. Everyone's a beginner and everyone has to start somewhere. I'm just discovering that, as time goes on, I'm less interested in addressing that crowd and more interested in getting the harder questions answered. It also in my mind helps me with the questions I go through; I deal with a bunch of tricky stuff in my day-to-day work and it'd be nice to be able to ask a hard question to Stack Overflow without getting either the pedantry or the half-assed guesses.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 1:53
12

Because I get bored at work

And the site isn't blocked by the network firewall.

Wait, you want more of a reason than that? But I don't have one. Code golf?

12

SO's Q&A workflow still has no competition.

Once I saw it, I stopped using forums altogether. They feel so inferior and inefficient in comparison! Their signal-to-noise ratio is so much lower! The ways to rate content and otherwise give feedback are nigh-nonexistent, and it's outright impossible to improve existing content! Conversely, as a post author, if you get no feedback, you don't feel the impact you are making thus don't feel valued; and when you lose interest, the knowledge in your posts is effectively dead -- so you can't make a lasting impact, either.

No wonder forums struggle as a source of knowledge and are subject to degradation over time.

Roughly the same goes for other traditional ways to get help -- mailing lists and newsgroups. They are good as a means of passing communication but not as a persistent, reusable source of knowledge. (Yes, in some niche areas like minute, undocumented details of a software project in development, there is no persistent knowledge since those details change constantly. Thus there's no need to keep it, and a mailing list is good enough.)

6
  • I wonder what the main competitors of stackoverflow really are. Maybe Wikipedia, Quora, reddit? Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 21:10
  • 1
    w3schools for sure
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 22:23
  • 1
    @Trilarion reddit and Spiceworks I would think are the most direct competitors (for Q&A). Though Quora is still in that list but very general and some sites (like Kaggle) are starting to add that functionality but are too new to really have much base. Oh, and Expert-Exchange is still limping along so there's that. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 4:42
  • @JGreenwell I have a bit of experience with reddit and it is much more casual than here. In a way it's good, in many other ways it's bad. And they seem to have an order of magnitude less beginner's questions. If they would, who knows what would follow. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 21:25
  • 1
    @Trilarion oh, I've yet to find anything that matched SO when I started using it (even in "read-only" mode before creating an account) I was just pulling those from looking at the market, Bloomberg, and other sources I have as the most direct competitors for Q&A (I get small contracts through SpiceWorks sometimes so it hits Jobs too). For Jobs though: LinkedIn, Indeed, Dice, etc are all competitors & Atlassian products if talking the private Q&A hosting but that's from experience over research. Honestly, I wouldn't use any of these if not for current state causing me to have to look elsewhere Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 22:36
  • ... Haven't I since seen you over at Codidact? Commented Nov 23, 2023 at 6:50
11

Because this has become a part of my life now. From finding solutions on here daily to the communities I've joined across the network, to all the people that I know and interact with that are here. It's become part of my routine to read stuff here, to check up on stuff.

And I guess a part of me is hoping against hope that they'll turn the ship around.

8

I spend so little time on meta that I hadn't even been aware of any recent big kerfuffle or likelihood of mass exodus, but for me, the answer to why I'm still spending time on Stack Overflow is simple: I am addicted to wanting to help people.

That's not Stack Overflow's direct goal, of course (the official goal being the creation of a repository of high-quality questions and answers), and I've "left" Stack Overflow many times because of my frustration when "the rules" were in direct conflict with my desperate need to help some poor, lost sheep who'd asked a not-good question that I nevertheless wanted to answer. But I keep coming back, because I'm an addict, and addicts are notorious for putting up with all sorts of negative consequences in pursuit of their addictions.

1
8

Stack Overflow mirrors a company I used to work for. I was hired with the promise of "Company 2.0", which was mostly in-house development, no hiring out, no traveling to all the corners of the country, cutting-edge tech, etc. But what wasn't said was that management had changed not too long before and I was actually entering "Company 3.0" where hiring out was pretty much the core business and cutting costs far outweighed investing in making things better. I lasted about a year there; you can't stay happy under false promises and lies. I wasn't alone; I was absolutely not the first in the exodus that happened at that time.

The company is still doing fine, with a new crew of people who are just fine with "Company 3.0" and its management and a couple of die-hards who will complain about everything, but likely never quit.

Stack Overflow on the other hand... well, it never was my paid job, I don't have too many attachments to its comings and goings and I make it a rule never to grow too attached to a website/service anyway; the only dependable thing about them is that they change and eventually disappear.

I have no problem just sticking around and seeing where it can be taken before the thing implodes. I can't imagine this will continue to work for another decade, but I'm still curious where it goes and for how long. Who knows, maybe some nice things happen at some point in time.

So go ahead. Change the business model, commercialise the website, don't work on improving curation, and take away downvoting for all I care. I'll adapt and play along.


Foot note: I noted that this post is more "why do you stay in meta.so" and not Stack Overflow in general, but the reason to stay on meta.so pretty much goes hand in hand with my willingness to do stuff on the main site.

7
  • 2
    Footnote: Interesting. On re-reading the question, you're right. But my original take on it was for the entire site... And I think what's coming out of it is more meaningful that way. But, you're right :-) Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 15:19
  • @CindyMeister me too! But then you keep reading and you start to doubt yourself :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 15:22
  • The types of comments I was thinking of when I wrote the question made me think that the people who posted them were just fed up with the site in general, but after reading the responses here I think it's more important to make the distinction between participation on main vs. meta, although I don't think I'll edit the question at this point. Apparently I had unconsciously started thinking of it as one thing, which obviously isn't how everyone views it. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:15
  • @Don'tPanic Indeed, the two sites aren't the same :-) But I think this is turning out just fine... And I hope the "powers that be" are reading along. Again, thank you for having the courage to ask! Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:48
  • The question addresses negativity (anger) expressed on this site, but it sounds to me like the negativity is about SO. After all, this site is about SO. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 17:25
  • @Cindy thanks! I have to admit I'm relieved; the question got a much better reception than I expected. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 23:00
  • Darned it's VS its, I just keep messing that up. That allows me to segway into another footnote: Peter Mortensen's edits just make me feel good; it feels so good when people just have your back on a website and work along with you rather than against you. Let's not forget about those little things that are so unique to Stack Overflow (well, Stack Exchange).
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 9:33
7

This site is a problem magnet. People just post low-quality questions and think they will get an answer for it without providing more information. And when they don't get an answer, they get angry and start blaming the site mechanics for it.

But I think the biggest reason why I stayed is because of those low-quality questions.

When I read the people problems or just the new ideas they are trying to accomplish, I get more experience and more knowledge. Even if I do not solve the problem or don't know a thing about what the OP is talking about, it is always a new thing for me to digest.

I learned how to be a professional developer on this site. Hell, the negative comments made me search the entire web before asking (usually I spend more than three days searching before I ask here). I'm stronger in debugging my own code than ever. I get criticism lighter and with a more open-minded state than I used to.

As for the ads, I really do not know what you are talking about. I do not see them in my main page (I know why). And for me I really do not care if new users see them. If they are much of an annoyance to them, they should write some good answers to get rid of them.

5
  • 2
    This is a good point. I found this site myself when just starting out as a complete fresher. Most of my skills as a developer have been crucially shaped here, and the things you mentioned definitely help on a personal improvement basis.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 13:38
  • 2
    When I looked back at the past three years I was surprised to realize how much answering questions has helped me. Now I tell everyone about it. I wrote a blog post. Where else do you simultaneously get to help people and get nearly instant feedback from experts? It couldn't work without all the negative feedback. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 14:30
  • 2
    This answer goes for me too, I had very little experience programming when I joined the site, and my first questions probably show that a lot. But I've gotten better, my skills have much improved, and that is almost entirely because of SO. People ask me how I got into programming, I tell them it has always interested me and I just fell in love with it when I started, but people ask me how I got to the level that I am, and I tell them "Stack Overflow". Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 20:01
  • @Scott Hannen: Can you provide a link to the blog post? Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 2:15
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen here it is: dev.to/scotthannen/… Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 3:29
6

I'd say I can stay on SO because I don't participate in Meta too much, nor care much about what's going on on Meta.

I am a CS student (my sophomore year just ended) and I learned about SO for its exceptional frequency of appearance in Google results when I search for something in this field, which led me into joining SO. The first time I had the feeling of being a part of this community was one of my answers outscoring one from a 100k+ user when I had merely 200 or so reputation.

Speaking of the question "why I stay", it's simple because I have my aims other than serving my capacity as a community member. I think my profile on SO is my profile, and I build my presence so that I can include it in my CV or résumé in the future, which I've always believed to be useful.

Truly, what has happened on Meta in the past periods have been disappointing to some community members, among which is Makoto, whom one I respect a lot. I've long felt the unpleasant atmosphere arisen from the community's disappointment towards the official's decisions in various cases, which has effectively driven me off my passion in participating in Meta with the same hope to make SO a better place. And I decided to quit Meta and only focus on main, for the reasons described above.

It's the only reason that I stay that a "high profile" here is useful to my future scholar and career, which would likely be my reason of quitting should it remain no more one day.

6

To be honest you lost me almost when "my" chatroom was closed. I met a lot of people there on a daily basis. I chatted with some really years! I had also more than 1k consecutive days being online even on vacation on different continents. Until that "break" I had just less than 10 days with interruption from creating my account. So out of my opinion I was a heavy user.

Around starting this year I tried to establish a new chat room, and I had just one visitor within 2 weeks who didn't write a single word. The inactivity script forced close my room. Great!

Today I keep smiling when I see (while doing researching for a bug) a Stack Overflow link. Sometimes when I am really bored I try to answer some questions, but to be honest the questions don't make fun to answer. Even that domain where I really want to share my knowledge I don't find any questions.

I have still an emotional connection to Stack Overflow, but in that "bank account" has for a long time no real deposit.

The latest bigger problem I had: I got no answer, and later I ran into the same problem and found only my own question with my own answer. Thanks for me former myself 😐

Stack Overflow stopped being helpful for me, more than a year ago.

0
6

To be absolutely honest...

enter image description here
Powered by frinkiac.com - Season 2 Episode 22 - "Blood Feud"

6

Stay on meta or stay on S.O. in general.

I mostly try to avoid meta. I've even blocked it for a while in the past because more often than not I vehemently disagree with the responses I get here when I ask a question, but otherwise I only come to ask a questions (why I'm here now and got distracted). I don't browse meta (see below).

But for S.O. in general I guess it just makes me feel good to solve small problems and help people.

Still I HATE THE GAMIFICATION

I don't care about points. I've used uBlock Origin to block all displays of points.

Enter image description here

Enter image description here

Notice there are no points and no votes shown.

I don't care about my points. I don't care about others' points. A question, answer, or comment, should stand on its own, not be judged by how many point someone has.

I also don't show question and answer votes.

I've even hidden the new points notification bubble.

When S.O. started and gamification was new I thought it was a great idea. I think that time has passed. I know it still serves a purpose, but I want to believe it would be better hidden than public.

I also wish it was something more like "thank you" and "Sorry, but this Q or A seems low quality. Can you please read the FAQ and try again?" rather than +10, -2, +5, etc.

Also notice that it's not just the points that gamify things.

The "Featured on Meta" and the "Hot Meta Posts" is trying to get me to spend more time on Meta. I've hidden those. The same with the "Hot Network Questions".

10 years ago I'm sure I thought those kinds of features were cool. Now I think they're part of a Black Mirror episode where every possible interaction with most sites and apps is shouting at me "SPEND MORE TIME HERE!!!". Maybe because I'm old, but it feels like a magazine or newspaper didn't really get to do that to the same level and now with so many things, not just S.O. shouting "LOOK AT ME!!! LOOK AT ME!!!" I feel like the socially responsible thing for S.O. to do would be to remove those sections.

TLDR; I avoid meta as much as possible. I stay on S.O to be helpful and to solve small puzzles (fun).

7
  • Now. This is a gem right here. I really love what you did, it will certainly change how people view ones question and answer. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 15:59
  • 1
    OTOH, the concept (in theory) is that, for people who aren't sure who to believe, the person with more points could/should be more competent/experienced. In that respect, the points aren't bad. Of course the don't reflect that, in actuality - at least until someone has been on the site for a certain amount of time... Note that I'm not talking about "gamification" - that's not important. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:50
  • 1
    Yes, it's a signal. Just find that emotionally I don't like the way I feel about it. I want to judge things based on their content, not on the rep of the person that delivered them. There's more to it as well. I feel myself comparing people based on their points so for me at least it feels good to hide them.
    – user128511
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:55
  • I use an extension that causes other peoples' reputation to always show as -1000, unless they go around marking helpful questions as duplicates for no useful reason, and then it shows as -50000. John Skeet's reputation is always exactly one less than mine. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 19:24
  • 1
    Re "it feels like a magazine or newspaper didn't really get to do that to the same level": I think they did. Most magazines, just before they died, got to the greediness phase where they would get thicker and thicker and thicker, due to more and more ads. Examples were "Byte" and "Your Computer" (British, roots in home computers: ZX80, ZX81, BBC Micro, ZX Spectrum, etc.) Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 1:52
  • The ads didn't lead anywhere. It wasn't like I could click the ad and instantly be taken to a new magazine full of info. There's basically several orders of magnitude more distraction available now than 1985 and it's not just available, most sites/apps push it as hard as possible, S.O. and the "Hot Meta Posts", "Hot Network Posts" being an example. I need less distraction and now in 2019 with so much distraction available I feel like sites/apps/devices that push distraction are in some small way unethical.
    – user128511
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 2:57
  • Small thought experiment: have you considered also anonymizing user names in your interface? It could be done per page, so that you still see relevant user responses, and you could map the @reply for usernames behind the scenes to send to the correct user.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jul 31, 2020 at 22:18
4

.1% of the time I stumble upon a question which intrigues me enough to challenge myself to solve it not because it is the most unique question in the world but because it helps me to better myself. Don't worry, I put in my fair share of close and down votes as well.

If I happen to be the fastest (slow) gun in the west for said question then I like to post a high-quality answer in hopes that it becomes a beacon for others.

Realistically, this site is going to experience countless turnover of experts and newbies who wish to become experts; it's the only way that it can survive as a living entity and not get left for dead by getting pegged as an archive with pessimistic a-holes.

Imagine if education tried functioning in the same purist vision that veterans try to achieve on this site. Little Timmy would get told that Alicia already completed first grade so he should go study everything she did and come up with an original question.

As an answer-er it is vindicating to know that your answer actually helped to solve an interesting problem.

2
  • 1
    Just out of curiosity. You are really willing to look at 999 uninteresting questions to find the one question (0.1%) that intrigues you to answer it? I would probably give up after a much lower number of questions. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 16:06
  • 2
    @Trilarion I haven't actually calculated the minuscule number but it's probably fairly bleak given that I frequent the PHP tag. It's not like I browse consistently but my answer rate of about 1-4/month should be a good indicator.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 17:09
-7

Because people in the comments mentioned that I did not tell why I am staying: My simple reason is, that I currently do not belong to the people that see a reason to leave.

I have some points that are annoying me as well, but currently this is nothing too bad. The answer below is the attempt to explain why you may notice people telling that they are leaving all the time, but wonder why they stay nevertheless.

TLDR: You probably just do not notice who left and only see the people who did not leave, yet, but are writing angry rants why they will leave soon.


Maybe it is just a skewed view, because you're looking at (meta) SO and not at the people.

Looking at Meta:

  • There are always people complaining and writing angry rants.

Looking at a specific person:

  • The person gets annoyed (invisible)
  • The person complaints (you notice it)
  • The person gets angry (invisible)
  • The person rants on Meta (you notice it)
  • The person leaves the site (you probably won't notice, because you're not watching if a specific person becomes inactive)

The things you notice are the complaints and the rants, but when someone is gone, you do not notice him on meta anymore.

You will only start to notice people leaving, when there are only few left, so it gets really empty here. Until then, you will see angry people and wonder why they did not leave the site.

And of course, there are some people, who tell you all the time they are leaving and do not leave. But I saw on meta a few serious "good bye, this is not my site anymore" posts from people who actually left. I guess SE could provide some accurate numbers on deleted accounts and inactive users to show if there is a trend that people are leaving SE or not.

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  • 6
    Here's a question? Who's not angry? I'd ask but I think it would get downvoted into oblivion. I'm not angry. I don't disagree with anyone who is. They're doing different things than I am, they've been doing them for a while, and they have good reasons. Maybe I make them angry sometimes. But do we hear when people are happy? I'm happy. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:05
  • 9
    My first reaction was to wonder, how can any answer to this question get downvoted, since if anyone says why they stay, it's the correct answer? You can't get it wrong. But this answer doesn't say why you stay. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:35
  • 1
    @ScottHannen He does, in a Swifty way. You just need to infer it. He's not in step 5 yet. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:46
  • @Andreas I didn't understand your comment. How is this related to Swift?
    – Sweeper
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 7:33
  • @Sweeper Swift is statically typed, but you all you need is to write var. The compiler infers the type. Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 8:18
  • 2
    If you need a direct answer why I stay: Because I am not very disappointed. I see some points that should be improved (to phrase it carefully), but I did not write any of the angry rants that other people wrote.
    – allo
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 17:42
  • 2
    @allo Same here.
    – VonC
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 21:12
-15

Because I refuse to be bullied out of this community.

I have worked in the software engineering/architecture field for over 16 years. I'm a Caucasian, attractive female who works in IT. And that has not always been easy, especially in the DoD sector. I have participated in countless online technical communities. But none except Stack Overflow ever made me feel alienated, bullied, and oppressed.

It was a startling and unexpected experience. And I found that I wasn't alone. Many smart, frustrated people have left. Or they just refrain from asking questions or participating much. And I, too, thought about leaving and came very close many times.

But I think the IT industry itself is shifting. It's not enough to just be a technical savant anymore. Good IT folks need to be able to communicate, effectively. And learn how to defend their points without confrontation. And most importantly, learn when to compromise.

I think SO is still a little stuck in the 'old ways'. But it's also changing, slowly. And I'd like to help accelerate that evolution.

Maybe more new people would join/stay if they saw a friendly face (or 2)?

So I'm sticking around, to try and be that friendly face. ;-)


Tracy's profile includes a photo of her face and a summary encouraging new users to stick around.

[Brace for the barrage of down-votes.]

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  • 12
    Bullying in all its forms is unacceptable on Stack Overflow. If you're being bullied, don't just grin and bear it, report it and help get rid of it. I see on your activity page that you have cast zero helpful flags, bullying is something that must be flagged when you see it.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jul 31, 2020 at 22:26
  • 22
    Please, please, please stop conflating downvoting with being unfriendly. Teachers aren't unfriendly because they indicate that a student's work has room for improvement. Art critics aren't jerks because they rank some pieces of art above other pieces of art. People disagree with you, and they express their disagreement by downvoting your post. Similarly for upvotes when people agree with you. We aren't all required to agree with you in order to avoid being bullies. It has nothing to do with you being female or attractive or anything else. On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 4:25
  • 6
    I was referring to your flagging history on Stack Overflow, I wasn't thinking about Meta when you said "none except Stack Overflow ever made me feel alienated, bullied, and oppressed." I thought you were seeing actual bullying and alienation and oppression occurring, and just ignoring it. I didn't realize you were just taking downvotes as personal attacks. Sorry for my misunderstanding. I feel like I got hit with a Motte and Bailey switch there, where bullying that everyone can agree with is bad (the Motte) is being labelled equivalent to down-voting (the Bailey) which really isn't.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 5:10
  • 15
    @Tracy Blaming rudeness on ASD (for others reading who don't know: Autism Spectrum Disorder) is, ngl, pretty rude in on its own. Far from everyone who are rude on the site are on the spectrum, and far from every active contributor is on the spectrum. These types of comments only help reinforce misconceptions about ASD. Also, active on SO does not imply smart. Smart does not imply rude. Active does not imply rude. ASD does not imply rude. And as I mentioned elsewhere, a lot of new contributors actually become rude when they're told (1/2) Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 8:24
  • 11
    in a constructive way that their question has improvement potential, or is off-topic. Downvotes being perceived as rude by an unnecessary amount of people hasn't helped, but new users lashing in a rude way to constructive comments makes up quite a few of the total rude comments. (source: experience: 4115 comment flags). Downvotes being perceived as rude has also caused several users, both new and some with high rep, to lash out at other people. If more people listened to what Cody said earlier, this might not have been as problematic Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 8:27
  • 4
    Adding up to what's been said so far, the downvotes on this answer do not mean that we don't want you here or that you should give up. Much on the contrary, it emphasizes that what you have presented here contains multiple issues, and that some values need to be aligned on your end in order to have a good experience on this site.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 10:19
  • 5
    Can you add to your answer why you feel alienated, bullied, and oppressed? Is it downvotes? Comments? Dismissive answers? On Stack Overflow main? On Meta Stack Overflow? On both? Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 12:40
  • 4
    I had some time to look through that question you linked now so I can give a response. That question is extremely polarizing because you are making an unsubstantiated blanket claim about people on the spectrum being rude, which will automatically make tempers flare and encourage rebuttals like the ones that came up in answers and comments. Putting that aside though, what's the point of the question? You get a "yes" or "no" answer, then what? The question makes no attempt to suggest something that would help users. Check the tooltip for why it should be downvoted: This question is not useful.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 1, 2020 at 21:10
  • 3
    Alas, the help center isn't that well aligned with the current voting culture. A more accurate source on when to downvote a question is here. Also, since Meta SO is a pretty different site, it also encompasses a very different voting culture: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/272607
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 2, 2020 at 9:46
  • 3
    It doesn't mean that the votes weren't based on objective reasons. That claim will always be left unproven.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 2, 2020 at 9:50
  • 4
    On the other matter, please observe the description of flagging a post as rude/abusive post and the description of flagging a comment as unfriendly/unkind or as harassment/abuse. It is a form of civic duty on the site to flag problematic content as it appears, and flags are still the preferred way of handling violations to the code of conduct (before trying to escalate to the company).
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 2, 2020 at 9:53
  • 3
    @Tracy I saw that quote the first time you posted it. You seem to think that line in the privileges page is the only guidance that exists on voting. Another location in the help center that denotes another way votes are used is here: Voting is different on Meta: "For most posts, votes reflect the perceived usefulness."
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 3, 2020 at 0:07
  • 2
    Additionally, the tooltip which I already told you was my source for that says "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful." Using "or" means that any of the individual reasons are each sufficient alone to downvote the question, it would need to say "and" for it to not be sufficient alone.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 3, 2020 at 0:07
  • 7
    I've read that article. Actually, I've studied it in detail. It has severe fundamental methodological problems, and its conclusions are therefore altogether unjustified. Several other ad hoc studies have also found the opposite conclusion, as does most of what we see as moderators, which further calls the conclusions of that article into question. Aside from that, I have a very real problem with making females out to be weak and victims. It re-entrenches the very power disparities that are ostensibly being decried. There's no evidence whatsoever of systematic oppression.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 3, 2020 at 3:23
  • 6
    There's one more thing which just doesn't sit right with me. You say "And just to clarify, my question wasn't meant to be insulting to anyone." We're trying to clarify that downvotes aren't meant to be insulting to anyone, but you continue to insist they are bullying. Why not give us the same consideration you're asking for instead of insisting that we're all wrong about what votes are?
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 3, 2020 at 5:38

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