93

I was musing over a comment I've made this morning:

I didn't vote on this but if I had to guess the reason you're getting downvoted is that people are intensely sick and tired of discussing demographics and anything mentioning that will probably die the death of -30 or more right now. It's not a good time to talk about this it feels like, and paragraphs like Even if all of the "unknown gender" profiles are female, it seems... uncomfortable that the men are so willing to identify their gender probably additionally attract derision. Sometimes downvotes on questions translate to downvotes on self answers.

I feel like I'm seeing this pattern over and over here on meta.

  1. A poster who is not a "meta regular" and not highly engaged with the culture here makes a post.

  2. Perhaps it is ill advised, perhaps there are some issues with the arguments contained within, perhaps it is not properly fleshed out, maybe it's just contrary to popular opinion, or maybe the OPs tone doesn't sit right, but the result is the same: large amounts of downvotes and comments chiding OP for making the post at all.

  3. OP gets consternated or angry or disappointed or sad about the post's reception. Being unfamiliar with meta and maybe familiar with the main site only, OP takes the wrong impression from the extreme scoring and large amounts of criticism (for the purposes of this I assume the criticism is strictly constructive and unsarcastic, the point still holds). Maybe OP's main exposure to voting systems is even from social networks et al, where downvotes don't exist and the worst that can happen to a post is zero voted. You and me know that's a misinterpretation of the voting system here, but it frequently happens anyways.

  4. OP leaves with a bad taste in their mouth, doesn't follow up, quits the site, or becomes defensive and doubles down. The exact opposite purpose of meta has been achieved. Instead of serving as a resource to help people understand the site and a platform for meaningful discussion, in OP's mind we've told them to screw off. It doesn't matter if it's unintended or if we never meant it that way, it's frequently received that way.

I think our current way of interacting with complaints and misguided threads on meta is at least largely counterproductive and doesn't serve our purpose as a platform. I think the goals in addressing such posts are:

  1. Determine community consensus. Currently this works well. There can be no mistake that a post downvoted to -30 has not achieved community consensus in its proposals. There is apparently also uncertainty if this goal is being served currently.

  2. Educate the poster about conventions of the site should they misunderstand them. I think this is the area where we more often then not critically fail. Interaction with coworkers and others we discuss with on a daily basis teaches us that the fastest way to preclude someone from seriously considering your point is to annoy them or make them angry. Our approach here frequently doesn't lead to understanding, but to pushback or doubling down. I think this is a disservice to our purpose as a platform here on meta.

  3. Create a repository for others to refer to when grappling with the site's mechanics. This is frequently not served by responses to complaints and unwise suggestions, since dupe targets on FAQs exist. I'll exclude that for the purposes of this discussion.

I feel our current way of handling these threads on meta needs reflection and work. Completely divorced from demographics and blog posts, Meta.SO has a network wide reputation for being a rough place and really vicious. It pains me to say as a regular here that I can completely see why. In theory, we want as many people as possible to take an interest in understanding the site's deeper mechanics, and this is the place to do that. We should have an interest in not turning people away or making them angry without the need to do so.

Here comes the hard part and where I'm running on empty on ideas. Can anything be done about this and if yes should anything be done about this? Are there any ways to affect a culture change and make the "just-got-to-meta" user experience less daunting and negative?

30
  • 32
    Meta could do with its own "tour" to explain new comers how things can go over here. Meta can really be murder.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:28
  • 4
    Thats also what I meant by intensity. I'm not saying the individual votes are wrong or unwise (how could they be?), but that the sheer intensity and high pressure environment here is working against our purpose and goals. Other site's meta platforms don't have this problem, because there are fewer votes and a couple of users willing to be patient and helpful to a fault make more of a dent in the general feel of meta.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:39
  • 2
    Ah. Like main, I have good hope things will improve if this proposal for silver badges allowing to temporary deletion while awaiting improval goes through. That would allow badge holders to quickly allow new posters to know what's wrong with their post and address it before the waves of votes come in. I think it'll help a lot, just hope the 6-8 on it will be fast.
    – Erik A
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:43
  • 2
    I get where you're coming from. IMO there should be a "safe zone". I used to think that meta is it because your reputation is not affected, but it's not true. People are affected anyway. There needs to be a better place for people to go when they are in a state of "I don't understand Stack Overflow!" and need some personalised guidance. A chat room dedicated to it, for example.
    – Gimby
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:50
  • 6
    Every user is entitled to post their rule abiding comment, or to cast their vote. Which individually, is great. But in aggregate, it can be overwhelming. After certain point votes are no longer useful as content-quality signal, but their personal effect (satisfaction at the upvotes or grief at the downvotes) is still felt by the poster. Other than try to encourage users to better self-police themselves, the only way I see to make a dent into this is to have major change on the whole voting/commenting mechanic.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 12:12
  • 12
    I believe the root of the problem is the large population of users who don't do anything on the site but hang around on meta and do moderation + busy-meta-tasks. That's how you get sub-cultures that are completely out of touch with what's the site is supposedly about: programming Q&A, where we care about technical quality and very little else. I suppose one solution is to block users who don't participate on the main site from using meta. I'm pretty sure this would radically improve the quality of SO and meta both.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 12:29
  • 3
    @Magisch Yes. Programming Q&A is what stackoverflow.com is about.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 12:33
  • 23
    "...Meta.SO has a network wide reputation for being a rough place and really vicious. It pains me to say as a regular here that I can completely see why." Same. Frankly, it's why I'm no longer a regular here. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 12:55
  • 9
    @Magisch What I'm saying is that they develop harmful sub-cultures and make up meta rules and meta policies, for the sake of doing meta things, not for the sake of improving the technical programming Q&A. And then if some user who only participates in technical programming Q&A stumbles into their living room, there will be hell to pay, because that user only cares about quality of the main site and not meta policy #537.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 12:55
  • 2
    @Lundin I roughly agree with you, even though I'm not very active answering myself (thats an understatement). It feels at times like this here thing has a whole different set of rules, expectations, and conduct. I know how to navigate it, having participated on meta so much, I know what I can and can't say, and how to phrase it. As a result I can post something like this and not get completly downvote bombed right away. It feels like though that new meta users with a worthwhile idea don't fare so well because they don't hit the sufficiently deferential tone so well
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 12:57
  • 5
    @Patrice If you call technical support for your PC, would you like to get support by someone who has not touched a PC in 3 years, but knows what to say in the phone, by following routine and policies? If you don't participate on the main site, you lose touch with the culture and undercurrents. And they change a lot - SO is a completely different site now compared to 2015, and not for the better.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 16:15
  • 14
    The Meta version of "how much research effort..." is probably Shog's The challenges of persuading a large, critical audience, @ErikA.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 17:16
  • 12
    FWIW, I'm a "meta regular" and even I get dissuaded when I make posts that get downvoted. It's a natural thing for a human to want to be accepted and feel bad when they are not accepted (swap up and down votes for acceptance here)... we evolved as social creatures.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 20:30
  • 2
    @Gimby over 10 downvotes is "solidly downvoted" in my not so humble opinion as a Meta veteran.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:44
  • 2
    Yep, voting on meta is wild, erratic, and fundamentally broken. For example, I've seen identical questions with scores on opposites ends of 0, both by a margin. I've written and deleted questions. I go through a psychological "gosh, I hope this isn't going to get blown up..." that has almost made me want to throw away my questions. I have, twice. I've also seen discussion questions on good topics which were downvoted, and it's hard to argue that "voting works differently" when it's not a bug or suggestion. It's also little consolation.
    – kettlecrab
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 2:40

10 Answers 10

35

This was a really good opportunity to get some things that people have been feeling and expressing in quite a few places into a single, consolidated space. There's no great way of deliberately prompting folks to do that but you managed to pull it off extremely well despite that. This was a great way to talk about things that just aren't working in a way that helps make them better.

As promised, I'm going to give my own thoughts on what's breaking down along with what we've been contemplating, planning or designing on the back end. This is going to be long, and there's no tl;dr; version; I'll separate concerns with headings so you can skip whatever doesn't interest you as much.

Meta is exhausting.

Fbueckert captured this well in his answer when he said "We're tired." The combination of repetition of content and the absence of anything that isn't emotionally-draining to do here is leading to burn-out. We take breaks and continue coming back out of a sense of purpose and obligation and it becomes a vicious cycle. It's this way for the people that spend blocks of time volunteering here, it's this way for people that are paid to work here, and the combination of mutual exhaustion is becoming profoundly evidenced the dynamic between employees and serious users who treat their work here like a part of their identity, just like we do.

Everything else, every single thing that I talk about in this answer is shaped around acknowledging that meta has become exhausting for most uses and for some uses, that exhaustion has led to the system as it's currently built being untenable long-term.

There's no single fix for this. Alleviating as many instances of disappointment and frustration as a whole is what fixes this. But, introducing new stuff (like, say, polls) and Friday open-mic tomfoolery with substantial guard rails around it could help provide a more satisfying and enjoyable vent.

While few actively talked about it like it was a deliberate construct, our early light-hearted shenanigans did provide some needed comic relief especially for people who were dealing with Jeff Atwood at the height of his conversational intensity as he was doing ten jobs at once. I just mentioned this in another unrelated answer on MSE.

Think of a tall, mossy cliff facing the ocean. For a long time, the ocean would hit the cliff hundreds of times a day, breaking apart every time, and wearing the cliff down. But, neither the cliff nor the ocean seemed to mind. That was 2008 - 2009 when we were struggling to make UserVoice work.

Now we're like Owww, ocean, stop getting us all wet and wearing us down! and you're like I'M AN OCEAN I CAN'T HELP IT NOW GET OUT OF MY WAY! and the only thing that substantially changed is how long everything has been, essentially, the same, and breaking in plain sight.

Meta over-encourages punditry at the cost of constructive engagement.

We need to make the default path to be writing an answer if you care about an opinion enough to say something and really get out of the habit of using a comment system that was designed to hold ephemeral suggestions for edits as our primary discussion mechanism. No system is perfect, but if you don't care enough about what you want to say to express yourself in an answer that can be engaged separately, you don't meet the standard needed to express an opinion beyond using your votes.

Furthermore, the code of conduct has to be enforced consistently here. This is a dynamic in which we (the people that make the stuff) hold the ultimate power and authority so we try to go out on limbs to assume good-faith when passion starts to look a lot like personal attacks. But while the intention there is good, it sends sets a poor example of the worst we'd ever want someone that doesn't work here to tolerate, and quite frankly, those that do work here struggle to come here. We need to create a space where people feel that their identity as a (designer, scientist, developer, marketer, new user, academic researcher, someone upset with a way their question was handled) is intrinsically safe from the experience that they have here. In other words, it needs to stop feeling personal.

We may consider changing how comments on meta works, because the majority of the 'hurt' comes from them.

Meta doesn't convey presence.

You find a bug. It's irritating as a face full of insects on a hot day. And then .. nothing. You check it a few times a week, nothing. This hurts because you spent 40 minutes ON MOBILE trying to get screen shots and context needed to help someone that gets PAID to fix this stuff.

A year later you noticed it was fixed. Nobody thanked you, no progress toward a meta or badge, nothing.

That's not because we're horrible people. It's because meta is a lousy bug tracker that doesn't communicate 'presence' (think of someone turning from yellow to green on your favorite IM client as they became active).

The same thing goes for features, though the community team is generally pretty good at declining requests that aren't ever going to be feasible pretty quickly.

To fix this, we're going to specify out a bug-tracker agnostic API that correlates meta post IDs to a back-end task (be it an Azure board, Trello card, FogBugz ticket, whatever) and relays information back to the front end meta post. This will also make sure updates get posted even if humans fail to do it. We have to keep meta for bugs, there's no realistic way of undoing how hundreds of sites rely on the per-site meta, which means we have to get creative in order to make that work for us somehow. I'll be posting a rough draft of a spec for this to MSE in the coming weeks.

Support is onerous. It doesn't have to be.

My colleague Donna is doing a ton of research and discovery into common pain points that lead to support incidents, and how easy it is for other people to help them (including our support team!). She's got the beginnings of a much better just-in-time help system and the experience to know what to test to figure out where things break. Let's face it, this thing we all built together can be a bit of a Rube Goldberg machine that we don't see because we built it and know how it works. The reason you see the same old stuff all the time is because it keeps happening. The biggest bang for the buck in alleviating the pressure it builds here is in the new user experience.

That said, the flow for folks that still end up here could come in the form of making it much easier to mark and merge duplicates here. This is all stuff we're looking at in 2019.

A thousand stings and a sudden 1:many dynamic

Watching the real-time vote counter rack up in the negative is awful if you're not expecting it, and kinda horrible when you are. And then 10 people suddenly post comments with negative language and you're expected to process all of that in real time? That's .. not going to work long-term, and hasn't been working well for years. We do need to own our role in why it sometimes stinks to be an active contributor here, and part of doing that entails looking at how we encourage suboptimal behavior by enabling it to be gratifying. We need to look at what down voting and disagreement should look like when it's healthy and making most people feel like they have a seat at this table, and we'll have those conversations soon. We don't want to take away your votes, but we can't have hornet nests dropping on people with the park police showing up and just telling them how it's all their fault.

Meta isn't engaging when we need it the most.

TAGS. Oh, do I have some stories about TAGS and being only one of a few people trusted with the ad-hoc tools Jeff Atwood built to handle large-scale maintenance. That's why I really hated using them when I got pinged to look at a year-old burnination request with only five votes in something I knew absolutely nothing about.

If you're active in and someone says "Let's bar [foo]!" - you need to see a notification of some kind in the sidebar, or something. Meta isn't coupled with the main site very well, and all the glue is made out of people (the same stuff they use to frost Soylent Green).

Folks are also, for reasons above, reticent to throw their hats into broader discussions about topic, elections (how many great moderators aren't running because they don't want to deal with everything I'm describing in this post?). The impression that people see in the form of resentment of the day-to-day cruft is creating a broader perception that isn't true, but is difficult to disarm. Things look hostile and intense and therefore so do we, but we're not. Well, not all the time, anyway. We're just really passionate about this thing we've given over a decade to supporting (I'm just lucky enough to have gotten paid for some of that).

Consensus is totally broken.

People post stuff. People vote on stuff. Sometimes, we (employees) post stuff to indicate our position on something, and people vote on that too. Here we go back to human glue with stuff not making its way to that fantastic just-in-time thingy Donna has been chewing on. You see where I'm getting?

That's on us. We need a policy czar and it needs to be that person's job to watch discussions, negotiate and compromise so our goals as a business are represented in how we go forward, and make that stuff official. We're bringing on at least one more CM early next week and .. hopefully at least one more by the end of the year.

In conclusion:

There's no good answer to your question. The intensity is both helping and hurting. We need to make sure stakeholders are people actually invested in something about the way the site works, but that intensity has made the bar to participation too high in many cases, and for those that meet it, the experience can be .. well, not great.

What matters is we're fixing it. And fixing it means looking at how much better the whole gets as you fix individual pieces. It has just gone on way too long, but it's not irredeemable, it's just going to be work. Most of that work is on us, including the part where we talk to you so you feel as good about our plans as we do, and doing our best to adjust when you don't.

I signed on in 2011 to serve this place and that's what I've done ever since, and it's great that they pay me for it, but the work still has to get done. And, well, sometimes you just need to take stuff apart a bit to figure out how you put it together incorrectly.

We're at that point with meta.

12
  • 2
    "And fixing it means looking at how much better the whole gets as you fix individual pieces." I think this is critically part of the problems that the site faces. We focus too much on making sense in the vacuum, without observing how this little thing interacts with all other things. Re: rules in general.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 19, 2019 at 14:50
  • 17
    "We need to make the default path to be writing an answer" This doesn't feel right to me. Yes, if you have an opinion on the question asked, by all means express it with an answer. But for example, this comment, i'm expressing an opinion on your answer. Doing that in another answer wouldn't be answering the question. It's a discussion, and doesn't really fit anywhere else. Saying i don't care about my opinion enough to post an answer is... upsetting. Posting an answer simply isn't the right tool for discussing an idea presented in an answer. Inlined-chatrooms on request?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 19, 2019 at 15:29
  • While we don't have all the answers on why Meta.SO has become what it has, or how to fix it, it's instructive to look at a success story. You don't have to look far: Meta.SE has a bunch of users who efficiently answer questions which the Meta.SO community would downvote / close / delete to oblivion. They do so sensitively and in a way that is helpful to future visitors.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 19, 2019 at 16:39
  • 3
    @KevinB And you (with your comment) would have deviated from the default path quite justifiably. AND, you're careful, because you know how comment discussions can go off the rails. That's not written as much for you, and people of your experience. It's more for those that simply want to say "You suck at this" "I don't like it" "Everything you're doing is wrong" or many other non-starters that are good candidates for removal, but they quickly catch fire in back-and-forth volleys. You're not the droids they're looking for in that example.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 19, 2019 at 17:13
  • 10
    Re: The point that people like to comment more then actually answer - this too is influenced by the fickle nature of voting on meta. You might think to yourself "I have something to say about this, but if it doesn't align with popular opinion I'll get a nice -10 or -15 for it. Might as well comment instead, that can't be downvoted" and this perpetuates. Even when you're fully aware, meta is a fickle beast...
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 20, 2019 at 10:27
  • 1
    I think you summarize the problems pretty well here. So isn't one obvious solution to break up support, bug reports and discussions in separate areas. Get rid of voting on meta and replace it with optional polls, that can be added if needed. Connecting meta activity with the main site tags would also be great - it would mean that you could ping the right users when you want to deal with something specific to a certain tag, and that user moderators active in a certain tag can have a place to discuss. Plenty of ways to greatly improve the site by making small changes.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 14:31
  • 2
    Oh and get rid of dupe hammers for meta. There's no reason to have "masters of discussion" dupe hammering anything they personally don't like.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 14:32
  • @Lundin I'm quite convinced that Support, Discussion, Features and Bugs come with enough unique peculiarities that the systems supporting them should differ. Why down-vote a support request? BUT, if we take the down vote away, we have to make it easier to mark duplicates there, or, perhaps consider that we've outgrown crowdsourced support entirely. I fundamentally agree that meta should have a lot of unified functionality, but change in some ways depending on the tag used. Polls are something I'm very excited to work on.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 15:05
  • "perhaps consider that we've outgrown crowdsourced support entirely" a wiki. Please, tell me is a wiki.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:53
  • 2
    @Lundin I actually completly agree. I'm not comfortable being able to hammer "discussion" questions at all when the scope of the tag is so broad. I mostly answer things I know about on meta to explain and sometimes give my opinion on things, I don't think I'm a "tag expert" in any sense of the word related to discussion, yet, the system trusts me to mark dupes on discussion questions single handedly somehow. The system works for the main site, where tags are more narrow in scope and more objective, it does not work for meta.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 7:17
  • 3
    @TimPost, you haven't mentioned that communication is arbitrarily forced into a Q&A format, simply because the SO site software is built that way. I doubt that's helping much. Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 9:49
  • "Meta is a lousy bug tracker"... interesting point! That's because it's not really a bug tracker at all, is it? It's just the Q&A template, bent like a wire hanger into the shape of a bug report system, and duct-taped into place. I'm no expert, but to me it looks like the wrong tool for the job. Surely there must be a better way. Take Blender's bug report system, for example. Issues get addressed quickly. The necessary info on how to reproduce is required by the submitter. Bugs are given a priority and a category. Maybe it could work for SE too...
    – Mentalist
    Commented Nov 1, 2022 at 1:05
37

Determine community consensus. Currently this works well.

No it doesn't.

There can be no mistake that a post downvoted to -30 has not achieved community consensus in it's proposals.

It just means that 30 people thought "Aww jeez, not this shit again" and hit the down arrow. Probably the same people involved with cleaning up all prior discussions that did not sit well with that same crowd, hiding said discussions from all members who do not visit Meta multiple times a day.

So what to do to solve this? For starters, stop deleting all posts that are controversial, so they can be read by others who don't literally live on Meta.

Because really, that "consensus" you talk about lives in the heads of those people who read, voted and deleted those questions, and others can't even find the posts where those discussions were had.

16
  • 7
    Stop deleting all posts that are controversial Most of these posts are either self deleted due to OP getting discouraged, or still undeleted but extremely downvoted, thus invisible unless you're reading questions/newest
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:43
  • 19
    Or they're duplicates of duplicates of duplicates. Often not of sufficient quality to be decent signposts, either.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:44
  • 8
    On the one hand, I understand the concern of seeing so many meta questions being deleted. I have occasionally opposed to those deletions even when they are controversial. However, there are also two very good reasons for them to end up trashed: (1) many times the OP is being unreasonable, keeping them visible would only show the stink of a user that does not even represent our community's general behaviour; (2) if it's a well established duplicate (e.g. "mandatory feedback on downvotes") , it is not productive to engage in yet another discussion about that.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:09
  • 7
    @CodeCaster Doesn't help that the meta crowd is made up of mainly like 20 people that sit here all day and control discussion constantly. I don't look at meta too often these days but back when I did I saw the same few people in nearly every thread- and of course they have high enough rep to do whatever they wanted on meta and remove all the content they disagree with.
    – chevybow
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:19
  • 11
    @chevybow I don't think it's constructive to any sort of discussion to throw around accusations. Yes, there are Meta regulars, just like there are for Main. But distilling the argument down to there being a clique enforcing their view against everybody doesn't really help move the discussion forward.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:07
  • 11
    @chevybow I am what most would consider a meta regular. I don't have rep to throw delete votes. Fbueckert is in the same boat. Doesn't have enough rep to even cast a proper close-vote. We are probably as active as the 20 names you have in mind (if we aren't already in the 20 names you have in mind). These accusations don't help anyone. The whole mentality is always "us vs them" from both sides. How can anyone reasonably expect good change to come from such stances? :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:21
  • On further reading, this entire answer mirrors the comment from chevybow. That seems to strawman the discussion, and isn't something I can really agree with in any sense. We can discuss, but, please, leave the accusations and strawmen at the door.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 16:36
  • 12
    @chevybow got a point though, which is obviously not going to be popular with those few meta people, out of which more than half of them don't even visit the main site. Users have overall way too much power in user-moderating meta. If someone wants to discuss something you let them, you don't clobber them with a 5 year old duplicate post which is not only dead and cold, but also mostly irrelevant since the site is constantly changing.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 19:02
  • 2
    What do you mean hiding? The relevant ones for this topic are right here: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/366665/1394393, meta.stackoverflow.com/q/367405/1394393
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 23:23
  • 5
    @Lundin that's a somewhat personal pet peeve of mine. it always struck me as really unfair that just because something was discussed once you should re-address it in the same old discussion post if desired. That doesn't work, the very software here works against it. Even if I post a shining new opinion and take on an old feature request, barely anyone will see it because its one answer among many in an old thread that will not be paid any attention to outside of a brief bump. Imo we're collectively using this to stifle discussion indirectly.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 10:41
  • 2
    one of the best posts I ever read on meta Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:48
  • 4
    @Lundin Quote: "... meta people, out of which more than half of them don't even visit the main site." wow - really - why on earth do someone want to solely be on meta? In my mind the main site is what matters and meta is just a place where people from the main site discuss how to interact on the main site. Seems very strange to me
    – 4386427
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 16:56
  • 5
    @4386427 Don't ask me, but we have at least 20 like that, that are very active and prominent on meta only.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 16:45
  • 2
    @4386427 relevant...
    – canon
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 17:58
  • @canon Interesting article "Meta is Murder". Bit strange that all the arguments the author uses, appear to prove that Meta is necessary for a site to survive. Take the interview with Josh Millard: "A lot of people cite MetaTalk as a reason that MetaFilter works. If you talk to a regular from the site they'll tell you MetaTalk is key to the success of the site because it's a sort of release valve." And Joel Spolsky about how the regulars are "bored talking about mixers and mics -- they've already had the full mixers and mics conversation all the way to the end, to its logical extreme." Commented Apr 13, 2019 at 18:48
24

I've been thinking about this a bit, especially in the light of the last question from the same user you mentioned. There's...a lot of history that's inherent here in Meta. New users are more likely than not to receive a negative experience here. Some of it is due to our attitude, no doubt. We have little tolerance for the umpteenth, "Give a reason for downvoting" or, "Why can't I ask more questions? This site sucks!" questions.

I think there's an argument to be made that this is partially a problem with how Meta is introduced, and the expectations we have for posting here. Gone are the days where users lurk for a while to learn about a new place before posting. Never mind that it's still good etiquette to do so, no matter which new space you go, digital or meatspace. I think that's going to be a core expectation established users have, and I know it tends to rub me the wrong way when a first time poster's question is something that has been beaten to death again and again, until the horse isn't even recognizable as anything more than meat and gristle.

And that led me to a realization:

We're tired. We're exhausted of having to repeat ourselves over and over and over again. It never ends. Meta has a system problem with introducing itself, and teaching people the ropes. It also has a problem with allowing our common discussion complaint topics to be asked over and over again. It's left to the community to explain, again, why downvotes don't need comments. We have to explain, again, why someone is in a question ban, and no, their question isn't special, or different, and we're going to close it anyways.

There are problems here we can solve, but I don't think much of it lies with established users. We're the ones stuck with cleaning up the horse after someone dumps it on our lawn, and that leads to a little bit crankiness after the third or fourth or twentieth time we have to clean it up, again. How much do we have to bend to accommodate before we say enough is enough? Yes, it's not this new user's fault, but they're one more straw on the proverbial camel's back.


There is, however, a lot the system can do. It can prevent asking things it detects are these often repeated questions. It can introduce Meta better, teach new users how it operates, and how research is still required. Above all, it can detect charged language in a question, and set user expectations to an unwelcome reception if they decide to post it anyways.

New users have their own part to play. We have been trying to adapt to them, welcoming them, teaching them, and introducing them, bit by bit, to how Meta works, and how to garner a better reception. I don't think this job is all up to us, or the system. New users have to be willing to learn, and adapt to us, as well. If they ignore system guidance, well, yeah, they're going to get a pretty rough reception.


We seem to be trying to work and educate new users, but we're being held back by inadequate tools, an obtuse system, and an unending stream of low quality complaints and rehashed duplicates.

Something's gotta give. We've already bent over backwards explaining, educating, and guiding. Quality creates kindness. What we're getting, is, more often than not, quality-free.

11
  • 16
    Devil's advocate: If we're cranky, tired users, would a solution be to just take a break and use meta less often? Or encourage less meta use (even via system prompts or timeouts)?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:28
  • 16
    @ryanyuyu That seems to be a common solution suggested for curators. "Just take a break. Use the site less." And you know what? I did just that when I felt I was getting too invested. Stopped for a month, I think. When I came back...nothing had changed. It took just a little bit of time for those same issues to crop back up. I suspect it's similar to vacations; they don't help once you return. Mini breaks could be a solution, but I don't think focusing on us is really the right approach to this.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:57
  • 5
    I don't subscribe to "blame the system, not established users". SO Inc has already stated they aren't interested in our suggestions for improvement; take it as an input. So you're left with 2 options: stop contributing on Meta, or adjust your behaviour to account for the fact the system doesn't work. If you choose the latter, appreciate that new users will ask duplicate questions and often in good faith.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:58
  • 7
    @jpp There's a lot of conflicting messages coming out of SE, and I'm not sure they really have a coherent message of how this is going to work. Tim seems to believe the issue is with the system. I don't think it's unreasonable to apply that same direction to Meta. Which one you believe is likely going to come down to how cynical you are about SE's current direction.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 16:09
  • @fbueckert: "Meta has a system problem with introducing itself..." Doesn't this paragraph apply equally well to Stack Overflow itself? Isn't that one of the main foundational problems with the site as a whole? Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 18:36
  • 2
    @NicolBolas It does, indeed. I was focusing on Meta as that is what the question is about. New user onboarding in general needs a major revamp.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 18:42
  • 6
    The support tag is special, it's not just any meta discussion but SO's support ticket system. Like it or not, that's how it is. Those questions are going to be the same. If you work at technical support for a TV company, then - surprise! - you will get questions about broken TV:s. Over and over again. If you don't want to answer support questions, then don't. You aren't even getting paid for it. Simply block the support tag. I don't think users should even be answering those questions, because as we can see, they tend to do so poorly.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 19:15
  • 7
    @Lundin Your argument just reinforces the fact that the system needs to automate those questions, to the point where they either don't get asked because they found the help they needed, or they're directed specifically at SE. Your solution does nothing to actually solve the problem, but just allows us to stick our heads in the sand. That's not a solution; let's fix the root cause, instead of just papering over it. I'm also not a fan of the comparison to tech support. Our oft-repeated manta is, "We're not a help desk". Comparing us to one does Meta a great disservice.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 19:36
  • 1
    No, it's certainly not help desk, those are usually polite and patient... If users stop answering support, then SO will have to hire people to do it. Which costs money so it is not in their interest.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 7:44
  • 2
    I downvote this because of two points, that are only my opinions (but the first is kind of what ryanyuyu said in his). It's not the fault of the new users if you are tired, exhausted. Meta (and all sites) need guidance, it will always do, and if the system doesn't help, the other users have to do it. The second point is: you said "It's left to the community to explain, again, why downvotes don't need comments". The thing is, we still have this message when we downvote a question or answer: "Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved.", so the new user expect it.
    – Neyt
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:36
  • 4
    @Neyt It's not the new user's fault that we're tired and exhausted, no. It is, however, very much the new user's fault that most do not pay attention and do not adhere to our quality standards. Much of the guidance has already been written; you just need to read it. For comments, there is a small nudge for adding a comment, but that only shows up for low-rep users; once you hit a certain point, that goes away. New users won't see it at all unless they themselves downvote.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 13:46
14

I doubt a tutorial or help section is going to help much. First of all, it'd have to be optional because SE is never going to introduce a meaningful speedbump with the potential to reduce first-time user engagement. People are looking for a fast answer and decades on the internet has trained them to expect unfettered, immediate gratification; they'll skip guidance if they can. They don't care about our mission, standards, or bureaucracy.

Second, meta (and the main site, frankly) positions new users to fail (via downvotes, closures, or critical comments) and either...

  1. Abandon their efforts
  2. Lash out defensively
  3. Turn introspective and determine which changes they need to make in order to best engage with the site and community.

I think we're a little too hopeful for that third option.

As much as SE (the company) strives for inclusion and warm fuzzies, their unpaid curators are constantly (and meticulously) peeling these posts free of their distressed, wriggling, meat-space writers... endeavoring to judge all content in isolation. We've adopted this clinical dispassion, out of necessity, in order to keep our sanity. We choose to forget that these contributors are emotional creatures, invested in the things they create. Their suffering is irrelevant. We care about the content, not the person. Inevitably, this approach has forced the company to struggle against negative perception by wheeling out a freshly painted welcome wagon,

It's nice inside; we promise!™

Well, it's not nice inside. The company and curators are at odds. The system is set up to be confusing. Nobody is funneled into success. People are groping around, blind and frightened, until they figure out what's not going to burn them... if they have the patience for that at all.

It's a problem for meta and the main site... and I don't know how you fix either.

8
  • 6
    What percentage of new users come to Meta on happy terms? This is where I have my doubts on the whole "fail" part of this answer; most people are coming to Meta to assert their will on the site's policies, illustrating how they don't like this or that. The SE system works to allow us to close some of those questions as dupes, which only further infuriates them. I am under the impression that, if they were set up to fail, it began when they decided to approach Meta with the impression that the site had made a mistake when their question was closed or when they were downvoted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 16:52
  • 2
    On happy terms? Few, I'd guess. Still, it's important to set realistic expectations, e.g.: "You're going to get downvotes. DON'T PANIC!"
    – canon
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 16:58
  • 1
    Of the people I've helped here, the ones who are more amenable to feedback usually get a reasonable response when it comes to why their post is being downvoted. The people who flame out and/or ragequit the site aren't the ones this feedback is intended for.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 17:10
  • 2
    Setting expectations is important, but I'd challenge the fact that it's always our job to do so. The system fails at it pretty badly, and I think the Ask Question wizard would do a world of good here as well.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 20:36
  • 1
    For the record, I originally came to Meta because I saw the link at the top of my profile page and wondered what it was.
    – Super Jade
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 2:46
  • 3
    Indeed, the format of meta is highly problematic. Why can you vote on support tickets!? "No I don't agree that you have this problem"? Why can you close discussions as "opinion-based"? And so on. The meta site format is simply not working well. At all. It would have been much better off as a classic discussion forum, with optional "polls" to be inserted where needed.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 19, 2019 at 9:29
  • @fbueckert I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that it's the community's responsibility to set new user expectations.
    – canon
    Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 16:21
  • 1
    Agreed. A lot of suffering could be avoided by relatively simple means (software changes and/or configuration changes). As examples, votes could be hidden (still available for those who want to see them) or not shown below 0. Or votes could be hidden in the first X hours to avoid the mob voting. But the company doesn't want to spend any resources on meta, dating back to Atwood's reluctance to have it at all. Commented Oct 7, 2022 at 10:39
12

We can try to explain how Meta works, to those unfamiliar with it.
I have a auto-comment that helps significantly in cases like these:

Voting on meta is different. Votes are often used to express (dis)agreement with the general premise of the Meta question. These votes won't affect your main site reputation.

[Voting on meta is different](https://stackoverflow.com/help/whats-meta). Votes are often used to express (dis)agreement with the general premise of the Meta question. These votes *won't affect* your main site reputation.

More often than not, the OP responds with something along the lines of "Oh, that's new to me! Thanks for the info!"

Other than that, there isn't a lot we can do.

We can't educate users that are new to meta. Who reads the help center, any way?
Because of this, there will always be questions that have been discussed ad nauseam already. They just don't know any better. All we can do is try to explain why those questions are received the way they are.

Then it's up to the OP to either accept that, leave the site with a tantrum, or anything in between.

10
  • 3
    I used to post something to that effect often when I saw the "new user indicator" and it appeared downvoting was going to be severe. But a mod told me that I was posting them too often and my comments were being flagged. So I sort-of stopped altogether.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:27
  • Flagged? As what? I usually post a comment like that when a question is poorly received, and there's any indication the OP doesn't understand why it's downvoted that much.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:29
  • No idea. No longer needed maybe? But the feeling I've got was that my efforts weren't appreciated. The mod "told me off" right after deleting one of these comments after all. Wasn't happy about it, but moved on.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:31
  • 3
    Hm, the appreciation we get for trying to be helpful...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:31
  • 3
    To be fair, I sometimes posted the comments before the user complained about the downvotes. Trying to preempt the angst. Maybe that was wrong. Or maybe my wording was poorer than yours. Still, rather than fight it I opted to let meta be. If I see comments like yours, I upvote them. And sometimes I still post these but only in direct response to an asker complaining about the downvote downpour.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 10:35
  • 12
    The main problem with this is that it's just wrong so often. Yes, it makes the author feel good when you give them an excuse to just ignore all negative feedback, but more often than not the post is just a bad post.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 13:48
  • 2
    Usually when I'm downvoting it is because the post is not useful or it shows a distinct lack of research. Likewise when downvoting feature requests it is usually due to the proposed feature not being useful, or the post showing a distinct lack of research. Voting isnt all that different on meta, its just more intense because there are less posts being posted which means more eyes on individual posts.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 18:53
  • It might be a good idea to adjust the tooltips on the voting buttons for the Meta site, since they currently say the same as the StackOverflow tooltips: "this question does not show research effort; it is not clear or not useful". Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 21:11
  • @JesseAmano, I've never seen the tooltip (and, honestly, haven't felt the need to hover over these icons). Why do you think it'll make a difference?
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 9:48
  • 1
    Some people do read the hover states of things (I do!). I wouldn't think to look for a page called What is "meta"? because I am familiar with the term meta and can gather from context what this site is. But the idea that the conventions here are radically different from what's considered proper on other sites is not obvious or intuitive. Having the same exact interface (right down to hover state), but using it to communicate something different, especially if that hover state says "click this only if the post is helpful / well-researched" and that isn't the criteria at all. Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 18:17
5

In watching the tide of meta questions, I think the angst boils down to two main things:

  • People want to discuss things even if they've already been discussed.
  • The people who want to stay will make an effort to conduct constructive conversation.

In essence, your pattern is somewhat accurate - someone decides to come onto Meta and tries to discuss a subject matter which may be met with friction from the community. However, as with all discussion on Meta, it still serves as a means to an end; even though this isn't nearly as strict as the main site, we still espouse questions which can be actually answered, or at least discussed to garner consensus.

The question (10K+ now):

I just cast my vote in the first round of the 2019 moderator elections (yay for voter participation!), and couldn't help but notice that there's only one candidate who obviously identifies as female.

Do we think this accurately reflects the community here?

...is not something we can actually...discuss.

To mind, the only appropriate answer is, "It accurately represents the community who wishes to step forward as moderators." The conversation at the root of this seems to be one of demographics, which are infinitely hard to measure; if I hadn't announced what my first name was, then many could simply assume that I was a woman because "Makoto" could be both a male and female name.

To make matters worse, the OP didn't really offer us anything to go off of. They weren't proposing what we could do to change1 this - and nor do I think they could have; this isn't a problem that can just magically be solved by a few Meta-hounds - and it reads kind of like easy troll bait.

As in...

This is a discussion meant to evoke strong, polarizing emotion, but does not offer any path to a constructive resolution.

For conversations like this, I don't think there's much that can be done. We as the community should be a bit more apt to recognize these kinds of discussions and close them down quickly, so that they don't turn into a circumstance in which comments are bandied about to cause any bad blood.


With that said, your points are curious and I'll respond to them in turn.

I think our current way of interacting with complaints and misguided threads on meta is at least largely counterproductive and doesn't serve our purpose as a platform.

Dealing with complaints and misguided threads on Meta is probably one of the hardest things the group can do. Simply put, you're dealing with someone who's in the mood to shout at you when all you're doing is providing an objective, by-the-book stance on their circumstance. Admittedly there are some things which can be improved, but the belief that we're being counterproductive on interacting with these is backwards at best. I don't disagree that there are some things which could be improved, but that improvement rests with the individual - sometimes, it's easiest to not comment.

A lot of bad blood would dry up if we recognized when to engage, and when not to.

Determine community consensus. Currently this works well. There can be no mistake that a post downvoted to -30 has not achieved community consensus in its proposals.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "consensus". Not everyone has to agree with a stance for there to be consensus; disagreement by the plurality could also be seen as consensus.

Most posts which fall in to this camp - for instance, one about pedantry at an all-time high (10K+ only) were actually decent talking points, since we could convey and illustrate our perspective on what the OP felt was "wrong" with the site. Kind of a shame that one got deleted since (in my totally biased opinion), that felt like it could've been a serious olive branch to users who feel like the site's too aggressive towards "newbies" or beginners.

Educate the poster about conventions of the site should they misunderstand them. I think this is the area where we more often then not critically fail. Interaction with coworkers and others we discuss with on a daily basis teaches us that the fastest way to preclude someone from seriously considering your point is to annoy them or make them angry. Our approach here frequently doesn't lead to understanding, but to pushback or doubling down. I think this is a disservice to our purpose as a platform here on meta.

I take umbrage with this one, since I do work rather hard to make sure that a user who has a problem with something on the main site actually feels like they're heard, and that they can understand what the real issue is.

To be fair though, the main convention of the site are the points I outlined above; if you come here complaining that you shouldn't have been question-banned, that's a different conversation than asking what questions they should be improving to get out of a question-ban.

Create a repository for others to refer to when grappling with the site's mechanics. This is frequently not served by responses to complaints and unwise suggestions, since dupe targets on FAQs exist. I'll exclude that for the purposes of this discussion.

No one reads the FAQ or the Help Center. Not sure what else to do on this one since not only does the repository exist, it's easily searched for. Only when we close questions as dupes from the FAQ do we get some blow back about some existing conversations being hard to find.

Here comes the hard part and where I'm running on empty on ideas. Can anything be done about this and if yes should anything be done about this? Are there any ways to affect a culture change and make the "just-got-to-meta" user experience less daunting and negative?

The culture change starts within you.

The only real point I can offer to you is this: help the ones who genuinely want to be helped, and leave the ones who want to shout at you alone for a while. Don't assume motive or intent, and make the experience as neutral for both parties as you can. If you recognize that someone's starting to take this in any direction other than that, bail; the fight with that OP isn't worth the bad optics.

1: I note "change", not "improve". The OP doesn't seem to be taking an explicit stance that this is a bad thing.

7
  • 4
    @Makato - I actually do think that question can be answered. In fact, it got a pretty clear answer- by SO's own published numbers, that female/male % very accurately reflects the community. Other data sources could include %female/male of current moderators, of current site visitors, or even what % of the whole community votes in these elections, and using that as a proxy for what % of the community gets directly represented. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 22:15
  • 8
    I disagree; it's unclear to me what you're trying to actually discuss. Are you trying to point out the skew of demographics on the site? Ultimately, what does it matter? You don't really state that in your question as to why this is a significant point. I maintain the only real answer that could be provided would be the one about, "This is the demographics of the people who nominated themselves and stepped forward." I fail to see what actual merit the discussion has, nor do I see the actual purpose. I could be convinced, though.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 0:02
  • It might have been a bad question, but that doesn't mean it should be closed as a dupe or opinion-based (closing discussion as opinion-based, really!?). It could be objectively answered by providing known user gender statistics. If those had diverted significantly from the supposed genders of the moderator candidates, there would perhaps have been something to discuss. Personally I'm completely in the "oh not this crap again" crowd, but that doesn't mean I step in and sledgehammer discussions that I personally don't like with close votes.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 19, 2019 at 9:26
  • @Lundin: It's in our best interests to remove bad questions. It's also in our interest to remove off-topic questions. Let's not conflate the two.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:39
  • 1
    @Makoto And there lies the problem. A discussion you have already had several times, popping up yet again, is a bad question for you. But not for the OP who haven't had a chance to discuss it or voice their opinions yet.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 8:27
  • 1
    I don't think I take that stance @Lundin. I'm more looking objectively at the question itself; if the question was there to ruffle feathers to an end (e.g. advocating something about diversity in moderation and proposing how that could be achieved), then it'd probably be fine. Since it doesn't read like it is, then it's objectively too broad. Discussions on Meta have a point. They're not just rants.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 15:31
  • 1
    @Makoto not just but mostly. :P
    – canon
    Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 14:40
3

It seems like there's a lot of community history on Meta that's not easily available in the publicly available questions. Before asking my question(s), I looked through previous questions and answers tagged gender, and didn't see anything that answered my question(s). There were, in fact, very few questions tagged gender at all (14 if I recall), so it seemed like something the community on Meta hadn't discussed much.

I haven't had anyone link to any previous question or discussion that does answer either question. I still don't feel like I'm much better informed with data, just much more knowledgeable that these conversations clearly touch a sore point.

On SO, there's usually very obvious canonical questions/answers that are easy to spot because they're linked to from so many duplicate questions, and have so many upvotes. I'm surprised to find that Meta functions so differently. I think that, at least for subjects that clearly repeatedly annoy the community, there should be canonical questions and answers that new questions can differentiate themselves from, or get easily answered by.

There is always value in revisiting discussions as times change, but even then it seems useful to know where something ended up last time.

11
  • 7
    You clearly hit a nerve. Meta has been sort of in a state of upset and increased wariness since the blog posts and welcoming initiatives last year. I meant every word of my comment - I don't think the current climate permits a constructive discussion on the topic.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 22:46
  • 3
    This is the one you missed: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/367405/1394393. It wasn't tagged gender, but it directly addresses your concerns. I'd have voted to close as a dupe if I had seen it open. Gender is almost never relevant to anything on SO in practice; I don't know why the tag even exists on Meta.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 23:31
  • 2
    @Magisch See the link I provided above. The "nerve" Climbs hit was almost certainly the accusations of widespread prejudice that the Welcoming push leveled at the community. It echoed them.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 23:33
  • 5
    @jpmc26 I was consternated at the blog post too, and I didn't at all get that vibe from their question. Even the follow up of "are we okay being 93% male?" is more of an inquiry than direct accusation. I get where you're coming from, but I think that interpretation is uncharitable and borne out of wariness.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 7:02
  • 2
    @Magisch what can I say... this is the perfect time to stop hating fun. The 93% male question was a fun question, I certainly read it as such and was kind of curious what kind of answers it would get. I may have made a jokey comment but what I said is still very much true: there are ZERO female developers in my office. My partner happens to be a programmer but she too is in a completely male dominated environment. I was kind of curious if there is any kind of change in that area in this day and age. Bunch of spoilsports ruined the discussion.
    – Gimby
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 12:07
  • Stack Overflow search is a whole other subject. Google reports 4170 results searching for gender on meta.stackoverflow.com. Searching only using the site search for duplicates/related posts will likely not turn up what's relevant.
    – Erik A
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:27
  • The history here, is that we did have the very same old gender discussion last moderator election. It appears to have been deleted, because I can't find it either. We only had one female candidate then too, and there was some controversial post about gender being in her advantage/disadvantage. In the end she did get elected, which I would like to believe was because of her competence and not her gender.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:36
  • 4
    Only just saw your question, which was deleted so I couldn't chime in there... I'm puzzled as to why people, in general, feel there must be a correlation between percent gender in the population reflected in any elected body. For example, there are pushes in our parliament to enforce quotas in government bodies and businesses. I'm female and I consider this ridiculous, if not downright dangerous. Competence should be the foremost criterium, not gender (or race, or whatever).... Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 9:06
  • 4
    ... Also, the percentage of those who want to perform such a job may be gender-skewed, for whatever reason. Where to find enough good candidates, then, to fill such a quota? Such a discussion only becomes relevant if active prejudice is preventing people from getting elected. During the 2018 election the topic did come up and I recall a couple of women commenting they were not interested in the job - they had other things they prefer to do with their time. So I don't really find this a concern for a current Stack Overflow moderator election... Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 9:11
  • @CindyMeister, Your last 2 comments would form an excellent answer (basically, it's an XY problem). Sadly, you aren't able to post it as an answer to the original question because some "Meta.SO vigilantes" are so keen to make the question disappear. A good upvoted answer would have saved all this drama and form a good duplicate target.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 23:15
  • 2
    @jpp I agree, on both points. Which is why I voted to undelete and re-open that question. There was really nothing wrong with it and it's a bit odd, to me, to have the close reason "primarily opinion-based" on meta in cominbation with "discussion"! And that not use it all the time. Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 6:25
1

It's not just about voting

Voting is an important signal to the community and to the user. But so often I see a common, but reasonably worded, question reach -5 or -10 without any duplicate close vote which might help OP. Since "voting on Meta often indicates disagreement", it's unclear to OP what precisely they got wrong, and many downvoted posts still merit exposure and a considered response. That considered response may simply be a duplicate close vote. Sadly, too often even that's lacking.

On the other side of the spectrum, some are so trigger-happy with their duplicate close vote, they miss the fact that the target accepted answer is diametrically opposite to the highly upvoted answer on the original question.

The Old Guard won't budge

There's a cultural problem on Meta. Many regular users believe standards of moderation, including whether a post / comment is deemed rude / abusive, are and should remain lower on Meta. There will be countless Meta posts / comments on this, no doubt propagated and promoted by the same regulars who enjoy their anything-goes freedom.

Meta is key for new users

Meta is not just for regulars. Many new users come to Meta-SO for help. Ironically, many posts written by regulars are aimed at new users. Many regulars, moderators and prospective moderators, intentionally or not (but usually intentionally), alienate new users by a variety of means:

  • Sarcasm, just doesn't come across well on Meta to a confused new user
  • Inappropriate analogies or references
  • Short shrift one-liners, appreciated by regulars but offensive to new users

Comments which exhibit the above behaviour are often highly upvoted by the community, possibly by the same party of regulars. It's self-fulfilling: the community believes it's good, see the stuff being upvoted and continue doing it. If you need evidence, here are some choice examples. But you'll find them everywhere. It needs to stop. Moderation isn't enough. Users, including regulars, need to flag instead of upvote.

18
  • 3
    "flag instead of upvote" That's quite a bold statement. For those choice examples you linked, I might even agree on flagging some of them, but in general, I have yet to see a (significantly) upvoted comment that should've been flagged, instead. But I guess I'm part of the "evil" old guard.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:28
  • 1
    @Cerbrus, My experience is different. I've seen dozens (many upvoted +50 or higher). And the flags have been helpful.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:28
  • 12
    Your answer perhaps could actually be good if you didn't drag in disagreement with a post of yours that got closed and election politics that are only tangentially related.
    – Erik A
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:29
  • 1
    @ErikA, Can you suggest more appropriate references to point to?
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:31
  • 8
    "Dozens" is pretty insignificant compared to amount of comments that are added on Meta on a daily basis. This answer makes it seem like it's common. It's not.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:31
  • 2
    @Cerbrus, It's very common. I don't hang out on SO as much as I used to, so the absolute number won't sound large. Many sarcastic comments I just want to see gone (on Main or Meta), I just mark as "No longer required" - as it's the borderline sarcy one-liners which often cause the worst impression but may not immediately be classed as rude.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:32
  • 4
    @jpp I think the whole point with close voting is not relevant to this question, and the old guard comment can stand on it's own without a reference to an election candidate.
    – Erik A
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:32
  • 3
    @jpp I don't accuse you of anything inappropriate, do as you will, I just wanted to note it takes away from the strength and credibility of this otherwise fine answer. A pity imo.
    – Erik A
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:37
  • 6
    And isn't that 'he did it first so I don't feel bad doing it' also compounding the problem? Meta regulars find it rude that new meta posters don't research, so they lash out. New users are aggravated so they post a rant-y/less than stellar complaint, and regulars feel attacked, then don't feel bad being snarky. It's definitely tough to break that circle, even with a conscious effort. But I think it should've a goal for all of us.
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:42
  • 5
    For the purposes of this discussion I assumed no sarcasm, only constructive criticism and no snark. I think the cultural problem still holds. Even on our very best behavior (I would not accuse anybody of being on anything less), we're failing to connect and inform a group of users that needs our help. We're supposed to be goal oriented here, so we should have a discussion about refining methods to serve our goals more.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 11:43
  • 5
    I'm not a big fan of meta and agree with most of what you write. Before joining SO I was very active on Wikipedia, and much prefer their consensus building, non-adversarial approach to meta issues. I am a member here of nearly 9 years standing. The user you linked to has not been here for even 3. Perhaps you should rethink whether that link is appropriate? Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:49
  • 4
    @yivi Sorry, you are right - I wasn't terribly clear about my underlying points: Primarily, that the user linked to is not by my definition 'the old guard'. Secondarily, that it's probably best not to make this an old vs new user issue. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:58
  • 7
    @jpp I really don't understand your fixation about my answer to the questionnaire (the "meta" part). Am I the only one saying that "meta is different"? We've talked a lot before in comments, quoting my answer is unfair IMHO. Makes me look as if I'm the responsible of the difference between meta and the main site / I would not want to change it if I was elected. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:28
  • 3
    now it seems to me that you're proving the inverse that you want to prove: now I feel (slightly) persecuted. Am I going to flag/complain? nope. That's meta and the opinions. It's not a technical issue, we don't agree (I agree with you on the "rude/abusive" part, don't get me wrong), that's normal & expected. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:34
  • 1
    A very good and logical posts unfortunately, there is little logic around here. Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:56
-3

Are there any ways to affect a culture change and make the "just-got-to-meta" user experience less daunting and negative?

Yes, it's very simple. We need to (self?) enforce voting and answering standards like any other Q&A site. And we need to stop reading too much into questions posted on meta. Let’s examine what went wrong with the linked post where you left that comment.

An answerable, decently-formatted question received a flood of downvotes because it asked a question about the gender makeup of Stack Overflow. This wasn't a feature-request in any way, and it didn't claim that there was a problem or try to blame anyone for anything. It asked a directly answerable question about the gender composition of Stack Overflow users. Instead, we collectively read way too much into this question and interpreted it as a personal attack or a crusade for social justice1. Note that there are no close votes on the question, nor did it get closed at any point.

That being said, that question still had some room for improvement. You could justify a downvote for having too much noise. The most recent edit attempted to cut the irrelevant chaff from the question.

Then, a flood of comments shifted the question into something that it wasn't originally asking. There were a bunch of "what is your proposed solution" and "we are a gender-blind meritocracy" comments... which the original question never made a contrary claim about. The final failure in the comment section was an answer posted as a comment, but at least it was converted to an answer. By the OP who received downvotes on the factually correct answer to their objectively answerable question. If the commenter had actually posted that as an answer, I doubt it would have received a negative score (seeing as how the comment got many upvotes). The only reason that the answer received downvotes was because of who posted the answer.

Here are some potential solutions:

  • Discourage users from answering discussion questions in comments. Possibly moderators should delete answers posted as comments, like happens on some other SE sites.
  • Edit questions to remove a bunch of unnecessary fluff so that the questions are more obvious.
  • Vote on discussion questions based on the normal Q&A metrics. We should still downvote (and close) the 100th "why are comments not mandatory for downvotes" question or incoherent rant. But we shouldn't downvote questions that just happen to discuss a touchy subject unless it's actually a bad post.
  • Use comments to clarify the question being asked. Instead of assuming that there is an underlying agenda, use comments to figure it out. If it turns out a question is asked in bad faith, close as "does not appear to seek input and discussion" and walk away. But don't start with this assumption.

1 The OP later went on to post another question that was more of a call for social justice. Hindsight is 20/20.

21
  • 10
    The author's editorialization of their question made it clear that the question was not asking for demographic information about the site. That said even if they were really just interested in demographic information, that information was readily accessible to them, so the question was simply poorly researched. Finally, the topic is not a useful topic to discuss, for the reasons pointed out in comments. Information being irrelevant makes it a poor quality question, and votes will reflect that.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 13:57
  • 4
    I agree with Servy here. The two main paragraphs - that make the vast majority of - the question are completely sidetracking the question. If you remove them, maybe it's an answerable and decently formatted question, but with them, absolutely not. Most of their content is not about the question of representation of candidates, but about their interpretation, deeply rooted in gendered premises by the way, of the situation. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:07
  • 4
    @FélixGagnon-Grenier so why did none of the comments try to figure out whether removing them was appropriate. Or even just made the edit and see if the OP rolled back? Why are people afraid of editing?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:14
  • 4
    @ryanyuyu Given that the author quickly posted a second question discussing exactly the thing you claim they weren't actually trying to talk about, it's simply clear that the people assuming the question was never actually about being given stats were the ones that were correct, and they didn't edit the question to remove the other aspects of the question because they correctly surmised that that's what the author actually wanted to discuss. You're expecting them to have edited the question into a question the author didn't want to ask.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:32
  • 3
    @ryanyuyu Additionally, people don't have a responsibility to fix others' questions for them. They certainly can, but it is the responsibility of the question author to fix the problems with it, not anyone else's responsibility.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:32
  • 3
    While we don't have a responsibility to fix every misguided post there's nothing preventing us from doing so either. And that's part of what this question is about. What can we do within our meta culture to help mitigate the complete downvote firestorms? And I've given a reasonable answer (IMO).
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:39
  • 3
    Also of note, none of your objections (which are legit) actually made it into the comments of the question itself. There was a bunch of handwringing but the comments never actually offered proof that the question was asked in bad faith. Those would have been actually helpful.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:41
  • 4
    @ryanyuyu So now not only are you expecting people to fix the questions of people acting in bad faith for them, (despite the fact that someone acting in bad faith is obviously not going to be receptive to such actions), but you're expecting people to explain to someone acting in bad faith why they're acting in bad faith. If you want to do those things (despite the fact that you apparently aren't good at determining who's acting in bad faith) feel free. Others apparently had more valuable things to do with their time.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:45
  • 3
    @Servy where did I say that? I think you're reading too far into all of this. You apparently had enough time to clinically diagnose the OP's psyche (and mine), but not to taken any helpful action on the post in question?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 14:54
  • 4
    @ryanyuyu You said, "There was a bunch of handwringing but the comments never actually offered proof that the question was asked in bad faith. Those would have been actually helpful." So apparently you were expecting people to do that. And again, you're chastising people for not spending considerable effort trying to help someone who was demonstrably not acting in good faith. (It's a but much, even for me, to see you asking me where you made a claim while repeating that claim later in the same comment.) That's just *not a reasonable expectation.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:03
  • 4
    When people see someone acting in bad faith they're going to downvote and move on. They're not going to spend lots of time trying to help their question get a good reception, because that's clearly not a good use of their time. If they want to spend time fixing a question, they're going to fix one that's actually salvageable.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 15:03
  • 8
    "Hindsight is 20/20." But after the first 50 times one sees the same style of language mysteriously turn out to be linked to the same agenda, one begins to suspect that foresight can be pretty good too. Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 17:52
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy I guess I just haven't seen the other 50 times.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 18:15
  • 4
    My comment there is the highest voted so i assume some of this angst is related to my comment. I assert that my comment is absolutely on-topic and it explains why i think the discussion is not a useful discussion to have. My biggest fear would be that someone who is not capable of fulfilling the role of moderator gets elected solely because they are a member of some minority or underrepresented group, or that someone who is capable doesn't get elected solely because they are not a member of a minority or an underrepresented group. It should just be about merit regardless of anything else.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 13, 2019 at 18:39
  • 3
    I didn't say that I considered the question off-topic. I said I didn't think the discussion was a useful discussion to have. I'm allowed to express that sentiment while also not interfering with the ability of others to participate in the discussion should they disagree with my assessment.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 15:21
-20

When a question is asked again and again by 'new' users then the community should really think about whether or not the previous answer is the right one.

These repeated questions are not a symptom of 'stupid noobs' not understanding the system but a sign that the system is inherently flawed.

The meta community is a bad community because it does not ever allow for fundamental change to the system.

And I don't think that that can be fixed without preventing those elements of the community from having any influence.

21
  • 11
    "These repeated questions are not a symptom of 'stupid noobs' not understanding the system but a sign that the system is inherently flawed." No, more often than not, it's a sign of new users not doing the required research... "Please make comments mandatory when downvoting!" is a question we get on a daily basis...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 12:38
  • 1
    It's not in general disallowed to rediscuss issues. But you have to add something new to the discussion. Asking the same question over and over without any different POV/reasoning/argument will give the same outcome as the last time, so why redo it? One should at least cover in a new question why they think the answer in the previous attempt is wrong.
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 12:45
  • 2
    @Cerbrus As one of those elements of the community who I consider to be 'bad' your opinion isn't really worth anything to me. also you merely said i'm wrong without making any case for it. A question asked on a daily basis for the last few years and a daily rebuttal by the community is a sign of a problem in that community. Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 12:46
  • 1
    @CarlOnager I'm not sure that your reasoning is correct: Just because a question get's asked every day doesn't mean that there really is a majority (or even a large enough group of people) who support it. You just don't see people who do not ask about a feature. That's why we can vote on such proposals. Upvote it if you support a request, down-vote it if you think it's a bad idea to implement it.
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 12:57
  • When a large enough group supports (upvotes) it, then it's worth considering it. For example, the "Please make comments mandatory when downvoting!" is currently at +350/-61. So for every person who wants mandatory comments, there are 5 people who don't want it. Would you now say that we should implement what 20% want or what 80% want?
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 12:57
  • 13
    You disregard my opinion, because I'm a regular on Meta. You disregard my opinion, because I have significant experience on how Meta works. If you're not willing to discuss anything with "experts" on Meta, how do you plan on getting your voice heard?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 13:03
  • 12
    While I fully appreciate the "if a question gets asked daily, then maybe it has value" stance.... Can we be honest and admit that "please make comments mandatory on downvotes" isn't about making comments mandatory. 90% of the time it's a disgruntled user who wants someone to lash out and scream at for the "unjust" downvotes on their posts....
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 13:22
  • 4
    preventing those elements of the community from having any influence. Spoken like someone with a plan. I'm curious.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 13:49
  • 7
    It's...hard to see this as anything approaching constructive. It retreads the same arguments made over and over, such as the frequency of a question gives it validity, or accusations of a clique preventing any change from happening. Then actively discarding arguments because their source is someone you disagree with shows no chance of any sort of productive debate. We assume good faith on the network. If you can't do the same, then what good does this answer do? It's a rant into the void.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 13:53
  • 3
    @CarlOnager "A question asked on a daily basis for the last few years and a daily rebuttal by the community is a sign of a problem in that community." So, by your logic, the dudes who get rebutted each day on twitter asking reknowed feminists "why are you acting like this, I can't see any problem with your situation?" are actually proof that there is a problem in that community as well, and not that these guys should read the abundant litterature on the question? That's a... very peculiar point of view... Commented Mar 18, 2019 at 15:57
  • 1
    Having failed to reopen my question, I agree. I also believe there are, as you put it, "elements of the community". Ultimately, it's a political following. Users follow their idols on any matter, regardless of rationale or reasoning. My question was not a duplicate, every user who commented there/interacted with me knows that. They didn't even dispute that it is a duplicate - yet because of meta's popular opinion or their popular icon/idol, they wanted my question to be closed and deleted.[1/2]
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 6, 2022 at 16:16
  • 1
    Only response I got was "Don't beat a dead horse!". They were saying they were already successful in killing the horse. It doesn't matter if I was right. It's hard to go against any popular icons or the popular opinion in meta. Spoken like someone with a plan. I'm curious. The testing plan would be making posts anonymous as much as possible, so users can judge the content rather than who wrote it[2/2]
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 6, 2022 at 16:21
  • @TheMaster You can tell it's a duplicate by the fact that it asks for exactly the same thing as all of the other questions, the only difference is it carves out one small exception... that's broadly covered by all the rest of the duplicates.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 6, 2022 at 16:24
  • 1
    @KevinB Come on. It does change everything. The implications are completely different. 1. Millions of users are not affected. They still get to see the content and rate them accordingly. 2. Only the asker is blinded. It's a small change with widespread implications. And is clearly different from the rest of the duplicates. 3. This is not discussed or broadly covered by all the rest of the duplicates.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 6, 2022 at 16:29
  • 1
    @KevinB I've already discussed all that many times over. It doesn't have to address any of that for me to claim it's not a duplicate. Because it is not a duplicate of those questions - that is very clear. It's a unique proposal at least worth considering. Note that when another popular icon suggested the same as "My suggestion", they were upvoted(To be clear, I actually like this icon though)
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 6, 2022 at 16:40

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .