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(I'm sorry to call out a mod by name, but since this is about a pattern of behaviour by a single mod, I'm not sure what else to do.)

George Stocker has recently started deleting comments on Meta more aggressively - and he's written about it here and here and here. But in particular, he's been doing two things (which both I and other people have pointed out multiple times, now):

  1. Deleting all his own comments in a comment thread shortly after posting them, while leaving now-incomprehensible replies to them untouched.
  2. Deleting comments by others at the start of a comment discussion, while, again, leaving a chain of orphaned replies that no longer make sense untouched.

Pruning comment threads and purging unproductive conversations wholesale is one thing, but this approach... isn't really that. Rather than improving our signal-to-noise, it worsens it; comment threads are left disorderly and hard to extract any information from.

George - are the two points I list above a fair description of the comment deletion approach you've been taking, and if so, what're you trying to achieve? Other mods, are you on-board with this?

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    There comes a point in a conversation where it becomes clear that continuing it won’t serve any purpose except to give ammo to those that want to fight. The only winning move is not to play. Also, as I’ve said dozens of times: comments are ephemeral post it notes. Once you’ve seen the reply, there’s not much sense in keeping it around, especially when with some searching I could find that stance repeated in mine or others answers. It would be quite ironic if this comment was then edited into an answer and argued against. Aug 10, 2019 at 16:30
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    @GeorgeStocker "comments are ephemeral post it notes. Once you’ve seen the reply, there’s not much sense in keeping it around" - while I don't agree with this, the point of this question is not to contest this. It's to ask why you're choosing to selectively prune stuff in a way that leaves behind lots of orphaned comments that cannot possibly serve a further purpose. The duplicate doesn't seem like a dupe to me for the same reason.
    – Mark Amery
    Aug 10, 2019 at 16:33
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    Deleting other user's comments is something that could be meta-discussed. Deleting his own comments, not so much. Everyone can delete their own comments whenever they want.
    – yivi
    Aug 10, 2019 at 16:36
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    @yivi If other users delete their comments and leave an orphaned discussion, which happens from time to time, we at least have the recourse of flagging for a mod to purge that discussion. Do we have that here? I suspect it is going to be taken to be in bad faith if I flag every conversation I see where George has self-deleted comments and left an incoherent thread behind. If a non-mod were doing this repeatedly, I'd flag for the mods to talk to them about it, but that's not an option here either. I'm not sure what other moves I've got available.
    – Mark Amery
    Aug 10, 2019 at 16:39
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    Did you already tried flagging the comments in a conversation George left in an no longer useful state? Your feelings and suspicions don't matter here, facts do.
    – rene
    Aug 10, 2019 at 16:42
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    So what if discussions are "orphaned"? This site is not, never has been and never was meant to be a forum for discussions, and all comments are to be considered likely temporary. Instead, the coin of the realm is as it always has been: the quality of questions and answers. Aug 10, 2019 at 16:58
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    Uh, @George, that "similar question" you linked asked whether and why people were flagging your comments. Yvette told Mark that you were deleting them yourself. Now he's asking why you're doing that. What am I missing? Aug 10, 2019 at 17:01
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    Just flag the orphaned discussions and we'll evaluate them. Aug 10, 2019 at 17:04
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    @RobertHarvey Should a mod be "orphaning" discussions in the first place? Isn't that kind of like leaving trash for others to clean up? Isn't that the point of this question, to address the mess, and the behavior that leads to the mess?
    – user773737
    Aug 10, 2019 at 17:29
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    @Houseman: Given the angst lately over deleting other people's comments, I don't consider that self-evident. Aug 10, 2019 at 17:30
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    What I find slightly frustrating is mods nuking whole threads of comments on meta. Some of them can be useful, you know.
    – S.S. Anne
    Aug 11, 2019 at 20:03
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    I don't mind long discussions being cleaned up. What (only slightly) bothers me is that sometimes, there's an comment added that explains why the (now deleted) comments were deleted. Comments like that are always without context (since it was justly deleted). I don't think it serves any purpose other than being potential fuel for a rant about deleted comments. I'd say: just nuke'm and be done with it. We don't need a justification for every discussion that went south.
    – Cerbrus
    Aug 12, 2019 at 10:02
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    We can have general discussions about which kind of comments that should be preserved, but discussing individuals on meta isn't a good idea, even if they happen to be a mod. These things tend to become very unpleasant for the person pointed finger at. If you think that a specific mod is misbehaving, you should rather contact SO at stackoverflow.com/contact.
    – Lundin
    Aug 12, 2019 at 11:00
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    A lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about the purpose of me having posted this. It's a question about why he is choosing to execute this particular moderation strategy, and nothing more. Jumping to privately contacting staff and trying to get George punished before even trying to find out what he's doing and why seems to me like both a poor use of staff time and a gratuitously nasty way to treat George. As for why it's posed as a full question on Meta, that's because George has repeatedly requested recently that questions about his moderation be posed in precisely this way.
    – Mark Amery
    Aug 12, 2019 at 12:14
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    Why not? If it's a specific set of actions one moderator does, what's the harm in asking for an explanation? I don't believe this question is anything more than that.
    – Cerbrus
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:28

2 Answers 2

-1

Since this question has my name in the post, I'm going to assume it's waiting for an answer from me.

In my soon to be obsolete comment on this question, I answered this (in fact, it's the first non-deleted comment on the question):

There comes a point in a conversation where it becomes clear that continuing it won’t serve any purpose except to give ammo to those that want to fight. The only winning move is not to play. Also, as I’ve said dozens of times: comments are ephemeral post it notes. Once you’ve seen the reply, there’s not much sense in keeping it around, especially when with some searching I could find that stance repeated in mine or others answers. [...]

That's my position.

I could go deeper and pick apart each conversation; and how each conversation that precipitated me deleting my comments was leading towards that inevitable conclusion; but that would invite further bikeshedding over whether each individual conversation was 'worthy of deleting my own comments', and 'what I should have done'.

At this point this would be the sort of question that would be on topic on https://meta.meta.stackoverflow.com.

Comments are for clarifications and critiques of the post. Once a person finds themselves arguing points in the comments, the plot has been lost. The post is no longer the focus, the comments are. If a person wants to make their viewpoint known for eternity, they should post an answer. If they want to debate in the comments, they're welcome to do so but there's no requirement that anyone else indulge that pursuit.

From a moderator's perspective, if an individual chooses to delete their own comments we are more likely to cheer them than to chide them. This software and platform are not well suited for long comment chains, and they're making our lives easier by cleaning up after themselves.

Catija (a community manager) brought up a good point in the comments that I did not know:

The system intentionally allows users to delete their own comments without the risk of a moderator undeleting those comments - mods can not undelete comments a user deleted themselves. If someone wants to extricate themselves from a comment chain, that's their choice and we will respect it.

The complete logic for comment-undeletion is (per Catija):

A moderator can't un-delete any comment deleted by a non-moderator, which includes flag-deleted comments and comments deleted by ex-moderators.

Since it is generally frowned upon for moderators to 'moderate' posts/comments they're involved in, we do not generally delete comments targeted at us. That's also why I won't delete other people's comments in conversations I'm involved in (unless the comment's tenor is so out of bounds as it would merit immediate deletion in any case).

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    From a moderator's perspective, if an individual chooses to delete their own comments we are more likely to cheer them than to chide them. I would go even farther than this... the system intentionally allows users to delete their own comments without the risk of a moderator undeleting those comments - mods can not undelete comments a user deleted themselves. If someone wants to extricate themselves from a comment chain, that's their choice and we will respect it. Being a mod shouldn't change this.
    – Catija StaffMod
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:44
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    "mods can not undelete comments a user deleted themselves" Waitwat? I had no idea, that explains so much in the past.
    – Cerbrus
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:48
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    Also, thanks for your point of view. Especially that last paragraph about not deleting comments directed at you makes total sense when you think about it, but it's something "us normal users" probably wouldn't think about that quickly.
    – Cerbrus
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:49
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    @Cerbrus normal users? :p
    – user3956566
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:52
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    @Cerbrus Little-known rule, but yes. This actually is slightly bigger - a mod can't undelete any comment deleted by a non-moderator, which includes flag deleted comments and comments deleted by ex-moderators. :/ We... kinda need to fix part of that but we're don't have any plans to make it possible for mods to undelete self-deleted comments.
    – Catija StaffMod
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:53
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    @Catija: I guess that boils down to the "Comments are temporary" theme. What's the point in making them undelete-able? :P
    – Cerbrus
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:54
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    @Cerbrus Ah, well, two reasons - sometimes you accidentally delete the wrong comment and sometimes it's more expedient to delete an entire chain and then undelete the ones you wanted to keep. :D
    – Catija StaffMod
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:55
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    Do you guys have a "start-end" selection for deleting comments?
    – Cerbrus
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:56
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    @Cerbrus Nope. Be great to have check boxes next to comments, tick the ones you want to delete, click delete... but it's just a process of deleting individual comments one at a time or the entire chain. But there's definitely FRs on MSE about upgrading the comment handling system.
    – Catija StaffMod
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:57
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    @Cerbrus you should ask a feature-request with that. This comment thread has become so off-topic I can almost see the countdown. Aug 12, 2019 at 14:03
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    @AndrasDeak not to mention it's not like I'm going to moderate anyone else's comments on this post... soooo. Aug 12, 2019 at 14:06
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    @GeorgeStocker: "If they want to debate in the comments, they're welcome to do so but there's no requirement that anyone else indulge that pursuit." While I understand this sentiment, there's a problem with it. If a debate starts, that debate probably happened for a reason. That reason doesn't go away because of the lack of "indulgence" of others. Now, if there were an easy way for a user to take something to chat, rather than waiting for the system to use its ridiculous metrics to decide when to display that option, then I might agree. But for now, this viewpoint impedes discussion. Aug 12, 2019 at 14:48
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    @NicolBolas Deleting all his own comments in a comment thread shortly after posting them, while leaving now-incomprehensible replies to them untouched. This is a freedom that every user have, if I like to delete my comments or not let that be my choice without any need for me to explain why. Does it always work in favor of the community deleting my own comments as I please, probably not, but still let me keep that freedom. Aug 12, 2019 at 15:17
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    @PetterFriberg: That "freedom" is granted under the expectation that the user will use it responsibly. If a user is using it in a way that harms the site, it's not unreasonable to ask them to please stop doing it. Or at the very least, to find out why they're doing it. Aug 12, 2019 at 15:25
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    @NicolBolas, See previous mod comments, there is no such expectation. Anyone can delete their comments any time and for any reason, by design.
    – jpp
    Aug 12, 2019 at 18:45
-14

Flag and move on

Your question is essentially stated in your comment (my emphasis):

If other users delete their comments and leave an orphaned discussion, which happens from time to time, we at least have the recourse of flagging for a mod to purge that discussion. Do we have that here?

Yes, we do have that. Flagging is not disabled in the situation your describe.

Contributors often delete their own comments. Moderators often delete comments, sometimes in response to flags. There should be no expectation that moderators justify comment deletions. Moderating comments alone is burdensome enough.

Such activity can obviously orphan another comment. If this happens, flag it with "It's no longer needed".

If a sequence of comments is orphaned or, by some coincidence of words, it's not obvious how a comment is out of place, you can flag with a custom message to explain the situation.


If the above process isn't working out for you, i.e. your flags are being constantly declined, you have a number of options. You can re-evaluate your flagging criteria, improve your custom messages, or take a break from reading / writing comments.

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    Not sure why this is received so badly. Flag and forget seem valuable advice as well as taking a break.
    – rene
    Aug 12, 2019 at 10:27
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    @rene the question is "are the two points I list above a fair description of the comment deletion approach you've been taking, and if so, what're you trying to achieve? Other mods, are you on-board with this?". What this "answer" seems to answer is a comment made by the asker. It's not an answer to the question. Aug 12, 2019 at 12:44
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    @AndrasDeak Oh, in the strict definition of "answers" to "questions" you're probably right. It still is a pretty good answer that can be applied to all cases similar to this, not only to a single mod. I would call it a canonical answer. If we only could make the question canonical we would be all good.
    – rene
    Aug 12, 2019 at 12:52
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    I do not think this is a relevant answer to the question. Following this approach, it would appear that George would be creating more work for his fellow moderators, and that's not a good thing.
    – MSalters
    Aug 12, 2019 at 13:32
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    @MSalters any other user deleting their comments would create as much work. The mod aspect is really irrelevant here but it seems most voters think it is of absolute and crucial importance. It really is not.
    – rene
    Aug 12, 2019 at 14:42

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