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Basically anytime a meta question gets downvotes someone invariably shows up to tell the author things along the lines of, "Don't worry about the downvotes to your question" because "downvotes on meta are just disagreement" or "downvotes on meta don't affect your reputation". Now yes, voting on meta is a bit more complex than on more traditional sites, but I'd say quite a bit less than a lot of people seem to either think or convey to newer users.

Lots of posts on meta are just bad posts. They're poorly researched, not clear, are not providing good proposals (i.e. not explaining why their proposal would be helpful), are not constructive in their tone, are simply discussing trivialities that no one cares about, etc.

It's both misleading and unhelpful to tell every single user posting a question proposing, "People should have to comment when they downvote" that all of the downvotes are just because people disagree. Stating, or implying, that there aren't major problems with these types of questions is unhelpful as it prevents them from fixing those problems, or avoiding those issues in future questions. Often people don't explicitly state that there are no other problems, but posting comments like, "Don't worry about the downvotes, they're just because of disagreement" is pretty strongly implying that the question is otherwise good, and regardless of what people posting those comments mean, many question authors interpret those comments as meaning the questions are otherwise good, and people just disagree.

Sure, lots of people do disagree with these perennial requests, but that doesn't change the fact that the question is comically poorly researched, virtually always not thought out, doesn't provide any new insight, often isn't constructive in tone, etc. Those types of questions merit (and often get) downvotes even when the community is in support of an underlying proposal (or when there isn't any proposal to agree or disagree with). And when there isn't an underlying proposal, either stated or implied, this just causes even more confusion.

Now sure, I'm not saying that everyone should be spending hours at night losing sleep over getting some downvotes on a meta post, but it is helpful to at least recognize when a question has problems beyond just whether any underlying proposals are a good idea. Yes, it's often easier to tell someone "people just disagree" than to go over more technical problems with a question.

This is mostly because people take it better to know that they "asked a good question"; we just don't like it, than to hear, "You didn't do a good job asking your question." It also means that the next time they go to ask a question they're not going to fix those problems. They're not going to spend more time looking for previous proposals on the topic, getting concrete evidence to support their proposal, trying to have a more neutral tone in their proposal, etc.

All that said, sometimes there are cases where you feel someone really did ask a great question, and you think they've done their research, asked a clear and well-formed question about something that's on topic and interesting, but that is proposing something that you think would be harmful if implemented, and choose to downvote as a result.

If you really think that that's what's happening (either because that's how you voted yourself, or because you really can't see any other problems with the post besides the underlying proposal) then by all means, mention that you think people might just disagree with the proposal. But honestly, I think those questions are rarer than a lot of people think.

If you don't want to walk someone through all of the technical problems with their question, that's fine (I often don't, it's a lot of work, and there's too many bad questions); just please don't post a comment telling the author (or implying) they asked a good question or that it doesn't have other problems unless you really believe that, and took the time to consider what other problems might be able to be fixed in it.

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    For the record, I've always despised people leaving "it's just disagreement" comments. I frequently delete them, and my hatred for seeing it correlates to the tone in a previous rant about them that's swelled since I first started speaking out against the idea four years earlier.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 19:14
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    Not to mention misapplication (joking or not) of the "lost keys".
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 19:23
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    @JoshCaswell For the record I think Tim's post is actually decent enough. My reading is that Tim isn't trying to say that votes should just generally be ignored whenever you want them to be. But lots of people seem to say, or imply, as much when paraphrasing it, which I consider very problematic. And I agree that when people are being sarcastic some users won't realize it and will take their jokes literally, to their detriment.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 19:25
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    So, what is your question?
    – Jo.
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 19:55
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    @Jo. I'm not asking a question. I'm proposing people act differently in how they provide feedback, via comments, on meta questions that are attracting downvotes.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 19:57
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    ...okay, I admit I'm confused. Meta has bad posts and has poor suggestions but I've always seen these things as distinct. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I think you want us to be more specific with the guidance we provide others, but I'm not seeing any suggestions in this discussion to motivate that.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:05
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    @Makoto When people post an idea that is both poorly asked and also something that lots of people think is a bad idea, it's very comment for people to comment either saying, or implying, that the question is a good question and that people just disagree with the idea proposed. I find that to be a problem. I would want them to make it clear that the question both has problems with how it's making the proposal, and also what it's proposing (when applicable). What you'd specifically say would simply vary a lot from post to post, so I haven't given specific suggestions.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:19
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    Meta does in fact have low quality questions QED. But: so what? Meta is just a log of quarrels, not an archive of knowledge, so the quality of questions is 100% meanigless. Your post, btw, is WAAAYYY to long.
    – TaW
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 23:32
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    @TaW Your perception that the post is way too long is much more telling of your attention span than it is of the post's actual length.
    – Davy M
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 23:58
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    Potential close voters: there is no sensible justification whatsoever for closing this question. Please note this is a Meta [discussion].
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 0:23
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    @duplode ah gotcha. Yeh, I don't understand the close votes either. That's meta
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 1:36
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    My reason was 'Unclear what you are asking', not 'Opinion based'.
    – TaW
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 2:24
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    We need more PSA posts like this. Maybe I should make a [psa] tag. Sometimes a moderator or Meta regular just needs to get on the soapbox and knock some sense into everybody. (I get the feeling @YvetteColomb will strongly agree with me on this.)
    – BoltClock
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 3:31
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    Similarly, upvotes on questions don't just mean agreement. Many people upvote a question because they think it's important.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 11:26
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    @BoltClock: "We need more PSA posts like this." I'm curious: who exactly would decide which "announcements" constitute a "public service"? That ultimately requires the post to be considered correct in some way, which means someone has to decide that it is correct. Who would that be? Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 16:59

4 Answers 4

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I cannot recall having ever seen a question asked on MSO that (explicitly or implicitly) asked us to revisit some aspect of site policy that wasn't heavily downvoted if the community was against any such changes. If this question had been asked on MSO, I guarantee it would have been downvoted to oblivion.

Similarly, when looking at a question asking about a specific question (whether it should have been closed, etc), you can pretty much always tell based on up/downvotes whether the community agrees or disagrees with the closure or whatever. If it's someone defending a question that was good, it will be upvoted; if it's a question that's bad, it will be downvoted.

Things like this question, where the closure was agreed to be correct by the community yet the question about it was upvoted, just don't happen on Meta Stack Overflow.

If voting patterns can clearly predict community agreement or disagreement... how is it unreasonable to call the present MSO voting pattern anything other than what it clearly appears to be?

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    I never said that users never incorporate whether or not they agree or disagree with a proposal in how they vote on a post. I said that it's not appropriate to tell someone (or imply) that their question doesn't have any problems just because it has downvotes. Yes, it's rather likely that a heavily downvoted question (that is making a proposal) is one where people felt that it was proposing something they don't want implemented. But that doesn't mean the question wasn't also poorly researched, unclear, lacking in supporting evidence, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:28
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    @Servy: Sure. But you haven't shown me that MSO would vote approvingly of questions that are well-written but wrong. While I've shown that other sites will do so. Therefore, there can be no question that agreement and disagreement are part of voting patterns on MSO. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:32
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    @NicolBolas I, for one, do think it is important to point out Meta downvotes can mean disagreement when that is the most likely explanation. It's just that it quite often isn't the most likely explanation (or at least not the only likely explanation).
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:36
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    @Servy: But such comments are not saying that it is a good question. That's an implication you're reading into those comments. Furthermore, it lets the user know that, even if they did everything they could to make it a wonderful question, it would likely still be downvoted. This is why I don't think this pattern of behavior is helpful; it doesn't encourage users to write good questions, since good questions about things we don't want will receive downvotes. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:41
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    @NicolBolas Some of them are specifically saying it's not a bad question, or strongly implying it. These types of comments often result in the author believing that they asked a good question, even if it's not what the comment says. We want to encourage people to propose things by both writing well written questions and also proposing things that people think are a good idea. Bad execution of a good idea isn't helpful, just as good execution of a bad idea isn't helpful. You shouldn't be telling people to not worry about either type of problem with their question.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:46
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    @Servy: "You shouldn't be telling people to not worry about either type of problem with their question." That all depends on what kind of site you want. You want agreement with you; you want everyone to post the kinds of things you read and say "I like that". I don't. I want a site where people can post well-written things that I don't agree with. People who tell people that the downvotes are just disagreements are in the latter category. They're saying not to worry that people disagree with you, just keep on interacting. Because poorly written-yet-agreeable stuff gets upvoted too. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:50
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    @Servy: Or to put it another way, agreement matters more than being good. Unless you're saying that poorly-written posts that the community agrees with don't get upvoted. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:50
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    @Servy: "a big part of why you need to do all of those things is that it makes it much more likely that people will think your proposal is useful." Prove it. Show me a bunch of upvoted questions for which the premise of those questions drew broad disagreement. Look at the examples I showed, and show me examples of such questions on MSO. The reality is that this is just not how MSO works. No matter how well-researched, constructive in tone, or anything else a post is, if Meta doesn't want it to happen, it will be downvoted. Period, the end. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:55
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    @Servy: The problem is that, to you, a question cannot simultaneously be well-written/researched/etc and something you disagree with. By definition, if you don't agree with it, then there must be a hole in the OPs reasoning or research or whatever. In your mind, the two are one and the same. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:58
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    @Servy: "You seem to think I'm proposing people change how they vote. I'm doing no such thing." I know. You've made it perfectly clear that voting based on agreement is fine, valid, and healthy for the site as far as you are concerned. My point is that the result of that is that it removes the concept of disagreement-in-good-faith. That is precisely why those comments get written: to let the OP know that there is no such thing on this site. That no matter how much effort they put into a question, if people disagree, it will still attract downvotes. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:00
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    @Servy: "This is not a question about how people should vote." But it is. The reason people are posting the comments in question is because of how people vote. If they weren't voting based on disagreement, then those comments wouldn't be posted, and there would be nothing to discuss. Voting patterns are at the very core of why this question exists. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:03
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    @NicolBolas And yet there are plenty of questions that have no proposal at all, nothing to disagree with, and yet people still post, "downvotes are because of disagreement" comments under the questions. Clearly people are posting these comments on posts even when "disagreement" has nothing at all to do with the posts. And this is a question on how people should comment on poorly received questions. That depends on how people do vote, not on how they should. This question would remain the same even if I had your views on how people should vote.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:09
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    I've upvoted this answer, because it highlights the crux of the issue, which is the fact a certain vocal category of users treat MSO as an Old Boys' club and have an auto-downvote mentality for every question whose argument they don't like.
    – jpp
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 15:22
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    @DonQuiKong but Servy specifically said there is no question. How can this "answer" answer a "question" that doesn't exist?
    – Jo.
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 16:12
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    @jpp Why is it helpful to lie to (or mislead) people about the quality of their question just because you don't like the criteria other people use about how they vote? Even if you think that well written questions proposing things you think would be unhelpful is a good idea, why do you think the site is better off by telling people their questions are well written when they aren't?
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 18:41
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The comments that say "Downvotes on Meta mean disagreement" or any such variation of those should be burninated, unless the person is explaining why they themselves have downvoted. Why? Because anything more general than saying why you yourself downvoted the question is just mind reading. And no offense to anyone who believes in psychic abilities, but I really really doubt that the people posting those comments can read minds.

Why is it mind reading? 2 big reasons:

1) Voting is anonymous. You don't even know who voted, much less why. Even if a person states "I downvoted because...", you can't even be sure that they really did downvote after all. So a generalized statement about why people are downvoting means that you are sure of yourself that these people who you've never met and cannot identify all downvoted for the reason you have in your head.

2) Voting can be done for any reason, or even no reason at all. Perhaps downvoter number 1 downvoted because the post was sloppily written, downvoter number 2 downvoted because it's been asked 50 times before, downvoter number 3 downvoted because they don't like your username, downvoter number 4 downvoted because they are on a small screen and misclicked, downvoter number 5 downvotes any questions that have a prime post id, downvoter number 6... see where I'm going with this? All of these claims are exactly as accurate as claiming that people are downvoting to express disagreement, and could only be confirmed by reading the person's mind who downvoted.

Such comments should be discouraged. I should hope that moderators will clean them up if they get flagged as "No longer needed" because they were never needed, and if a moderator would care to confirm or deny that, I'd appreciate it.

Note that I am not saying people shouldn't attempt to suggest how a post can be improved, and if a person really does feel like the post doesn't have anything wrong with it and they are just voting out of disagreement, they should feel free to express that as a comment (and should feel just as free not to, since we never want to require people to explain their downvotes). But they should be speaking for themselves, not for all downvoters, when they do so.

As Servy has said, Meta does in fact have low quality questions. I don't want to see people hiding behind "Votes are disagreement" type comments when I'm downvoting their post because they are not well researched, they are not well explained, they are confusing, they are useless, they show no effort on the part of the asker to ask a good question, or all of the above. As the tooltip says, "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful."


Note that I am talking about comments that claim that downvotes mean disagreement. I'm still somewhat against comments that explain that the downvotes may be because of disagreement because I think that still gives false hope to writers of bad questions that there isn't anything wrong, but I am not saying all those comments should be burned with fire. Before my answer gets filled with comments of people saying how "I only wanted to let the user know how Meta works," or "But people do vote that way, and the user might get discouraged when the downvotes come in," I want to make clear that I'm not talking about those kinds of comments. I'm talking about the mind reading type comments that try to speak for all the downvoters of the question. Though I might suggest next time you want to post a comment suggesting that downvotes may indicate disagreement, take a few extra seconds to read the post and consider if there is any other reason that they might be downvoted too, and suggest that as well as the disagreement reason.

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    "Such comments should be discouraged. I should hope that moderators will clean them up if they get flagged as "No longer needed" because they were never needed, and if a moderator would care to confirm or deny that, I'd appreciate it." I can say that these comments tend to be deleted when I flag them, but the problem is that they may not get deleted for hours or days, so the OP still sees the comment and the harm is done regardless. Hence why I posted this question to prevent them from being posted in the first place.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 22:49
  • Yeah, on meta or main, people vote for more specific reasons; it is usually not about agreement.
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 2:38
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Overall, I agree that these "downvotes can express disagreement" comments are overused and misused. Meta voting is complicated, and these comments fail to address these complexities. You're correct that there are plenty of questions on meta that are just unclear, poorly presented, or such a common duplicate that lack of research is obvious.

But I do think that there is some inconsistency with how meta votes on discussion questions. It's the misapplication of downvotes on reasonable discussion questions for users seeking, well, discussion.

For example, look at Failed review audit on question that was edited for clarity but still closed. The title is descriptive enough, it had proper tags, it described the thought process behind the review, it didn't cast blame on anyone, and it specifically asked for advice.

Given what I can see about the question on the review audit screen, was my thought process incorrect? What should I have done better?

Yet this discussion question received 5 downvotes. This is because the OP's thought process was in fact incorrect, as the accepted answer explains. But what is objectively downvoteable about the question? Let's explore some typical downvote reasons:

  • Unclear/unhelpful? It's not unclear. The post has a link to the audit, a description of the actions taken, an explanation of the thought process behind the review, and a direct question about the validity of the thought process. There isn't any distracting rants or irrelevant information.
  • Lack of research effort? There isn't an obvious duplicate, and no one even offered a potential duplicate. And since this question is about the nuances of a specific audit review, it's not like there was previous advice for the OP to find about it.
  • Disagreement with the feature proposed? This isn't a feature request, and it wasn't mistagged. The question specifically asked whether the OP's analysis of the audit was flawed.
  • Meta Specific reasons? It's not a "Trojan Horse" because there isn't a hidden feature request. Nor is the underlying assertion "I failed the audit and I don't understand why" anything that people can really disagree with. It doesn't overstate things superlatively. It's not a bandwagon post.

And of course, the obligatory "why was my meta question downvoted" comment and the hand-washing explanation comment for the (IMO unwarranted) downvotes.

Situations like this, where the question asker provides good background information, isn't neglecting research, and asks for a reasonable discussion without ranting should not be downvoted. The comments "downvotes can express disagreement" are acceptable in cases like this.

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    A good example. You still show agreement/disagreement... by voting on the answer(s), not on the question. An answer stating "yes your thought process is wrong, here's why" that gets a pile of upvotes sends a very clear instruction. A dozen downvotes on the very honest question ... not so much.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 16:35
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    This is not a question about how people should vote. If you want to propose people vote differently, there are plenty of questions that are about that topic. But this meta question is about informing people when their question has problems with how they ask it, or at least not indicating that a question doesn't have such problems when it really does.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 16:45
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    @Servy I'm disagreeing with your question's premise that the problem is mainly with the existence/misuse of such comments. I think the legitimate use cases/origins of such comments are relevant to the discussion of not misusing them.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 17:03
  • @ryanyuyu But I described that exact use case right in the question, and said that if you really feel that there aren't any problems with how the question is asked, just what it's proposing, then I encouraged people to say that's their opinion. You're not disagreeing with me, you're just repeating the last paragraph of the question. At least, for the bits of the answer that are actually on topic.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 17:10
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    @Servy your final paragraphs all mention disagreements with a potentially bad proposal (feature-request). I'm saying you are overlooking these comments existing on discussion questions so I'm broadening your advice. And specifically, I don't think your question (as lengthy as it already is) gives enough attention to the legitimate use cases of such comments. We do mostly agree, but I think your post is missing a bit of nuance I that felt is important.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 17:27
  • @Servy That being said, I'd be fine with deleting this answer if I can edit your question to better incorporate my concerns. My edits would be extensive though.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 17:29
  • @ryanyuyu People propose things outside of feature requests. I said proposals for a reason. If I meant feature requests, I'd have said feature requests. Given that you're talking about proposals in questions that aren't feature requests, that'd be consistent with my statement.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 18:22
  • @ryanyuyu What concerns do you have that aren't addressed in the question? The only thing I've noticed on several readings is your discussion on how people should vote, which I specifically avoided because it's off topic to the discussion I'm trying to have.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 18:23
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    A few months ago, in the comments to one of those strangely downvoted Meta questions you speak of, a fellow Meta denizen suggested that some folks downvote genuine, advice-seeking questions as if it were a way to answer "No". I find that perplexing enough to be worthy of a Meta question (and I have been procrastinating the writing of that question ever since).
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 30, 2018 at 2:01
-14

In Clarify that opinion voting on meta is the norm rather than exception, I showed that "quality voting" and "agreement voting" are equivalent for Meta purposes.

So it doesn't really matter which of them a user has in mind when casting a vote.

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    And that linked question (+ answer) has been downvoted enough for us to understand that we should not be relying on any of it: either it's low quality and not well founded; or people generally disagree with it. Either way, it's no good.
    – E_net4
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 9:02
  • @E_net4iskindandwelcoming This is not a deterrent from posting links to it though. I've yet to receive a compelling argument against it, so the more times I post it, the more likely it is that I'll receive any hint of what could possibly be wrong with it eventually. Commented Nov 30, 2018 at 0:14
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    @ivan_pozdeev Okay, let me give it a go.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 30, 2018 at 12:54

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