154

Hello members of the Meta community - I wanted to share the blog post I wrote to kick off 2020 and reflect on my first 90 days at the company. It’s intended for a wide audience, the tens of millions of people we serve, but also because I know you all want to hear directly from me. My style is to show, not tell, and I wanted you all to be the first to know when I shared a vision with our larger community. Our team and I will try to address your questions directly if you post them here.

I’ve been reading Meta and following along with the conversation here. My blog post is a high-level vision of what we’re doing, so it doesn’t speak to a lot of the topics that have been discussed on Meta lately, but I still want to know what all of you think about our message and our plans.

Given the goals of the business as I outlined in my blog post, and given that supporting the Community is a top priority for Stack Overflow, where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think should be done in order to get there? I appreciate all of your feedback and answers. My team and I will read your answers and comments and will look for ways to include them in our planning moving forward.

20
  • 505
    Welcome to Meta, new contributor
    – rene
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 16:45
  • 311
    G'day. Hoping for the best, but I don't think you're going to get far without directly addressing the sacking of community managers and ignoring everything that has been said on meta in the last 6 months. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:13
  • 116
    Thank you for engaging with the community and giving us the opportunity for respectful discourse, something that has been severely lacking with upper management for months now.
    – cs95
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:08
  • 8
    Please take off-topic discussons to The Meta Room, or Tavern on Meta SE, or Discord.
    – Samuel Liew Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 2:32
  • 52
    If the style is "show not tell", then I don't really get how the latest actions SE has taken could ever be aligned with "supporting the community is a top priority". Also, the blog post talks about inclusivity, but there's no transcript for the podcasts, for instance
    – Lamak
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 12:45
  • 47
    2020 Kickoff...Where do you see Stack Overflow going? If you want my honest opinion, the answer is directly down the tubes or to the most dramatic type of system crash that follows a Stack Overflow unless Stack Overflow the company starts recognizing & respecting the value of the community who created all the value in the company and site, enabled and supported by employees. In recent months, it seems like the company is intentionally pushing the community as far away as it can. Whether that is true or not, if it doesn't change quickly SO will be done.
    – WBT
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 16:35
  • 19
    Supporting the Community is a top priority Doesn't seem to be the case. If you want us to think that what you say is true, or have any real respect for you, you ought to be making some big changes soon. There are things going wrong, things have gone wrong, and the biggest thing that you need to do is stop things from going wrong.
    – user12174150
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 18:05
  • 11
    Personally, I don't know what to say. My constructive feedback of your post and good wishes was ignored. Plus more resignations are coming like the case of Monika and SE is ignoring everything. Therefore, I'm not sure what I can conclude with these small actions. I wouldn't be surprised if the staff try to delete this comment too. Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 6:59
  • 15
    From your blog post: "and only 10% were women. Statistics like these have significant implications on how we think about making our community more welcoming, engaging, and inclusive." From wikipedia: "A National Public Radio report in 2013 stated that about 20% of all U.S. computer programmers are female.[24] In open source fields, only 10% of programmers are women." Love the statistical scare tactics. Since most of the technology asked about here is "Open Source". How do you propose to make the site more "welcoming, engaging, and inclusive" when the numbers here are the same nationally?
    – gforce301
    Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 11:17
  • 7
    The lock on this question for 7 days while at the same time featuring it looked a bit strange, as if mods are a bit over-protective. On the other hand, the question was closed during that time twice. Maybe we need the functionality to make questions uncloseable (for example for important announcement from the company or the moderation) while leaving the ability to comment open (especially when they are featured) and only deleting single comments. Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 13:48
  • 8
    Where do I see stack overflow? I see turning into a place that only cares about enterprise helpdesk
    – HQSantos
    Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 16:21
  • 12
    So how about showing the community how you're no longer sacking valued community members left and right. You do realize that the value of your company is based on a community that does the hard work for free, right? And that alienating them might not be the wisest business decision? Show us that you understand this, and stop blowing smoke up our asses. Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 18:16
  • 9
    @ChuckAdams From what I can tell, they seem to think "the community" (which is OK and going well in their eyes) is different from the "meta community" (which is seen as a nuisance by the management). That's why they seem to think all the recent fiasco (Monica's handling, license changes, firing Shog, et al) isn't really that big an issue (but rough waters for the time being). Just shows how out of touch they have become.
    – P.P
    Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 19:23
  • 11
    Apparently, naming an SO employee is now considered a personal attack. Any post referring to a certain senior employee by their name is very shortly deleted by a staff diamond no less. Are SO employees now beyond reproach?
    – Boaz
    Commented Feb 1, 2020 at 16:59
  • 7
    opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/9276 Commented Feb 1, 2020 at 17:31

56 Answers 56

708

Prashanth, thank you for posting here. I did not expect you to engage with the community, but it is certainly the right thing to do. I hope you have a good experience doing so.

Let me address your question:

where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think should be done in order to get there

You are at a crossroads.

In summary, you need to rebuild the trust of the community

Let me outline my analysis of the situation for you.

This is a difficult problem to analyze and I go out on a limb to do so for you, risking the enmity and possible recrimination of others, especially your employees. However, I have a degree in political science and an MBA, and I won the moderator elections in a landslide not yet eclipsed by others, so perhaps I am uniquely positioned to provide you with an analysis.

I hope you'll give it consideration given the risk I take, since I don't intend to resign any time soon.

Situation and Problem

I would have hoped you would come in at a good time for a smooth handover from Joel, but that was not to be the case.

Instead, you were handed a community upset over the firing of an extremely popular community elected moderator and the communications both before and after it.

You needed time to learn about your stakeholders and the system that is Stack Overflow so that you can make the hard decisions - perhaps that explains the timing of the moderator firing. This situation, however, was unfair to you, the moderator, and to the rest of the community.

Between then and now we have seen many community elected moderators - unpaid volunteers like myself - resign in protest. Their resignation posts were prominently displayed () on the main pages of the site.

More recently we have seen employees released from service, especially the community manager Shog9. Never has a community manager been more respected by the community. We firmly believed he was on the side of the community. When he spoke for the company, we believed the company was also on our side.

Perhaps that is why he and the company separated: what he was able to communicate and what the company allowed him to communicate were incompatible.

Implications

A community that trusts you is a community that is a sales force that eagerly asks their organizations to adopt your technology.

A community that feels betrayed will go out of their way to sabotage your sales and revenue.

I, for one, have been silent at my organization as they considered adopting Stack Overflow's technology, and as the goodwill between the community and the company has eroded, I have been glad more often than not that I did not become a strong advocate for the company.

The company has taken on investors. The investors demand a return on their investment. This is a problem that requires addressing.

Need

Since before the community moderator's firing, community strategy and communications have been mismanaged.

I strongly suggest that you rebuild the trust of the community. This is a people problem, and you are the CEO. You need to make hard decisions.

One specific recommendation I will make is that you go to Shog9 with your hat in your hand and ask him to come back to consult on, and if it works out, direct the community strategy and communications for your company.

Payoff

You say:

supporting the Community is a top priority for Stack Overflow

If you rebuild the trust, I believe you will greatly improve the feeling that the community has that you support them, and perhaps win back your built-in sales force, which should have a significant impact on your revenue, pleasing your investors.

Conclusion

I don't know if you have a plan to rebuild the trust of the community, but whatever you're planning for the near future you need to keep this in consideration.

We all have invested much time and energy, for no pay, into us building together a community and material with immeasurable value to society. The company has provided the capital, the strategy, and the tools. But we, the users, provided the content. And we licensed it to you.

We are partners, not employees that you can fire at will. We don't just go away. We want to feel like partners. We want respect. We want patience and consideration. We want to signal our intent and carry through without being shut down or called trolls. We matter. We want to believe we matter to you.

Thank you for your patience in reading this, if you got this far. I'll be happy to drop by sometime in NYC if you want to chat face-to-face.

It's the least I could do.

67
  • 57
    Given that I haven't exactly held the same viewpoints held by the vast majority of the community regarding all the recent controversial events, I definitely appreciate the impartiality of this answer.
    – gparyani
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:26
  • 233
    A community that feels betrayed will go out of their way to sabotage your sales and revenue. I'm a comparably junior developer, but whenever someone has asked me about my professional opinion on SE teams in the past months, which turns out was a non zero number, I won't be caught dead advocating for it. This is the reason.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:38
  • 15
    "One specific recommendation I will make is that you go to Shog9 with your hat in your hand and ask him to come back to consult on, and if it works out, direct the community strategy and communications for your company." - Except if you have insider priviledged non-public information, we don't know how or why Shog9 was fired, and thus, we don't know if this is a reasonable request. So, you might rework a few text details here in light of that. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:31
  • 64
    @VictorStafusa I don't have insider information, but I would put money on the fact that shog did nothing wrong in that situation and that management just made a (fundamental, deeply damaging, natch) mistake in letting him go. In fact, quite a few of us have put money on our trust of shog, as the literally 10.000$ gofundme campaign we raised shows.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:42
  • 33
    @VictorStafusa I have known the actors here for a very long time. My analysis is based on the mosaic of information (immaterial non-public and material public) that I have, and it is as complete as I wish to make it given my limited time and energy.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:44
  • 87
    @Vaccano on the other hand, many of the "casual" users of Stack Overflow don't even remember its name. I couldn't count how many times I've seen people with a Stack Overflow answer up on their screen and I've said, "Oh, you use Stack Overflow?" and they looked at me like they had never heard of it - and when I dug deeper, they had just got there from a Google search, and while they had seen the site many times, they never realized the name of the site was "Stack Overflow".
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 23:30
  • 60
    I would never "sabotage" SO. That implies malice and I would never do that. But the point is that decision makers have never heard of SO and it's developers that suggest this product or endorse it or speak out for it. And I won't speak out for SO anymore, because if I endorse them, my reputation is on the line too. And I won't risk that seeing what they did last year. But that's not malice, I don't do that out of spite. I just don't support it either and developers are the only support SO has. Without my voice, an SO product will not even be on the table when a decision is made.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 8:14
  • 14
    Have you considered that by taking actions that are reducing the active user community, Prashanth is making the hard decisions ? -- Just not the decisions we want him to make. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:02
  • 15
    @GeorgeStocker Even if the actual plan is something we cannot agree with... actual execution of the plan and how people are treated during that process is what absolutely hurts the most. Also discrepancy between words and actions. If company is making 180 turn, at least they could be honest about it and drop the "building the community and cooperation" talk...
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 15:01
  • 320
    @AaronHall - thanks for your thoughtful answer. I would like to take you up on your offer to meet face-to-face at our NYC office. My team will reach out to you by email to arrange a meeting. I look forward to engaging in a deeper discussion with you.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 15:39
  • 50
    It seems to me that running SE has much more in common with running a charity or a political campaign than being a traditional CEO. The vast majority of the people that "work" for SE aren't paid, they do it because they think they're making the world a better place (i.e they're not paid in economic power, they're paid in moral power). The second people decide they're no longer doing good for society, that workforce dries up.
    – Daniel F
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 16:23
  • 15
    @AaronHall re: casual users, an important thing to remember is that a small minority of the user base generates the answers to questions, and so pissing them off even if they are a small percentage of the userbase can have a much larger effect. It's of course hard to balance this with the fact that they are also the most vocal, and so you hear from them the most, too. But what I worry about recently is that SE is alienating the people who make the site run, and that the effects of that won't be felt until months or years later when it's too late to change course. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 19:32
  • 31
    @AaronHall, thank you for taking a lead on this, both in writing this answer and in offering to represent the community in NYC.
    – Nat
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 22:02
  • 28
    When? Let's not be too specific to best manage expectations (anything could come up), but should be within a week. I haven't decided where I should report yet. Maybe as an extension to this answer, as it responds to a comment? I want to keep the discussion on the thread, in the proper context, as best I can. Also, to everyone commenting here - I understand people are upset, but taking it out on the CEO who just got here (in CEO time) doesn't feel apropos. Please temper your language. By itself it may feel justified. When everyone does it, it feels like a riot. I don't think it helps.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 14:01
  • 15
    We're supposed to meet in a few days. I'm going to try to post something by Monday. I'm quite busy as well, so please give me a little slack here. A person who will sit on their hands and bite their tongue while you do the analysis and make up your mind is someone you want to work with. Someone shouting "decide! decide! decide!" and shaking you is much more likely to get a "no-deal".
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 14:06
375

The blog post talks exclusively about Stack Overflow and technical sites that are targeting developers. There are a lot of SE sites that are not technical at all, and they are not mentioned in these plans for the future. And many of the technical sites like Aviation are not about software and don't target developers.

Does the non-technical branch of the Stack Exchange network have a future here? And what does that future look like? What are the plans for the wider SE network?

18
  • 23
    I was about to write an "answer" the same effect. "It is critically important that we evolve our platform, community infrastructure, and culture to be more useful to our community so we continue to be a core part of a developer’s workflow." and "As we look forward to 2020, we plan to invest in public Q&A, expand our community, and continue to cement our place as a pillar of the software industry and broader knowledge economy." seem to be at odds with what we already evangelize about the network. We who are dedicated to this network WANT the entirety of the network to be maintained. Not just SO
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 16:56
  • 3
    I also wouldn't mind seeing more details around "[companies] have all announced efforts to use Stack Overflow as a platform for helping programmers to use their products." because people have been using Stack Overflow to support their products for years instead of maintaining their own forums. This feels like fluff for marketing "oh look now these companies are doing this yay for today now look new shiny!" and not "[companies] continue to invest in our ecosystem".
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 16:58
  • 20
    @jcolebrand a lot of companies "using" Stack Overflow as a place to support their developers simply dump them on the Ask Question page with no guidance.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:01
  • 71
    Thanks for the question @MadScientist - We have ideas for how to better integrate technical content from across SE with the knowledge sharing that happens on SO, and vice versa. For the broader SE community discussing non-technical topics, we have no plans to change anything at the moment.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:12
  • 73
    @Pchandrasekar first of all, thank you for coming here and engaging with us, that is very appreciated. Could you explain what you consider "technical"? For example, Bioinformatics is a very technical site, but it isn't really about software, as such. Same for sites like Physics. Conversely, Super User or Unix & Linux are both techie and IT-related, but have little to do with programming.
    – terdon
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:20
  • 1
    @Pchandrasekar so are you contemplating the idea of merging the technical sites (ex: Database Administrators and Stack Overflow)?
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:22
  • 19
    @Pchandrasekar When you say "we have no plans to change anything", do you mean "we will not be investing any time and effort"? The blog post definitely gives the impression that the concept of Stack Exchange as a broad community of sites on different topics is not a priority for the company right now; is that impression correct and deliberate?
    – IMSoP
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:25
  • 1
    @ChrisF valid. I hear you. And some don't monitor the tags for their own product, I agree.
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:29
  • 3
    @Pchandrasekar technical sites also means international sites? that are not adressed anywhere, and they rank high in Q&A...
    – gbianchi
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:52
  • 2
    @PeterMortensen SO in spanish, portuguese, japanese and russian
    – gbianchi
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:38
  • 8
    @gbianchi Speaking specifically about international sites (I'm not directly involved here - just chiming in on the technical aspect) - they would at the very least need additional thought beyond other communities. There are 2 additional issues involved: 1) much more overlap with question duplication, and 2) showing 2 different user-generated (language-specific) contents in the same chrome/page. For example: is the chrome of the site in English? Other? Just links? AFAIK nothing is set, but a lot of ideas on how to better expose that these communities and content exist is what's in progress.
    – Nick Craver Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:10
  • 4
    @JoKing If anything "Rewarding the question askers" was not for the benefit of SO.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 7:43
  • 5
  • 1
    To be fair, both the location of this post and the blog are specific to SO, not SE. And I don't think it's unfair to address those two populations separately. All that to say, this response just seems "off topic". If it, and the corresponding follow-ups in the comments above, are going to be addressed, it should probably be moved to SE meta to hit the right audience.
    – chill94
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 18:57
  • 2
    @chill94 We were told to discuss the blog post here, and the author has responded to comments here; the "audience" for this response is the CEO and other staff who know about the context of that particular blog post. Separating it would serve no purpose other than bureaucracy.
    – IMSoP
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 9:18
318

Hot take:

These KPIs terrify me.

We have seen some encouraging results: more people are asking questions, we cut the number of negative comments nearly in half, and December was our best month ever for new user signups!

Is it the case that the company is chiefly interested in:

  • More users asking questions, and
  • new signups?

I leave off the discussion of question quality only because it's not explicitly called out in the post.

This is also a bit concerning as well, even if I understand the rationale:

A key part of great product development is to stay close to customers, listen, and take a thoughtful, data-driven, and research-oriented approach to building products. In our case, it is critical that we work closely with our community to listen, change, and evolve rapidly.

You describe two almost mutually exclusive indicators - something that is data-driven and something that is a heuristic. Who wins in a tie? What carries more weight? What if the data is saying that downvoting questions should no longer be a feature for X, Y, Z reasons, and the heuristic is desperately trying to resist that?

Note that I did glance over the parts about other products bringing their support forums here, but I have already left some thoughts on this matter.

I'm glad that we're getting the high-level view of this, but I would believe that a few of these goals - stated explicitly or otherwise - deserve introspection at a very, very low level. Thus far, I'm not too comfortable with what I'm seeing.

23
  • 71
    @terdon: Data points are things which are measured, like polls, surveys and site data that can be queried, then analyzed to produce a numeric result in a consistent fashion. A heuristic is going to get you a result but won't be consistent (e.g. talking to ten people in a room about how they feel about X). We are outnumbered - woefully outnumbered - when it comes to how much people hate having their questions closed or downvoted, and my only waking nightmare is that the data from those users completely overrules the very real heuristic that doing those things with questions is *good.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:07
  • 6
    @terdon: I will have to agree to disagree. Enumerating the heuristic of whether or not morale is low or rations are poor or is the slipperiest slope you can find yourself on. As a software architect, I believe that the recommendations I make for technologies should be borne out of my actual usage of them, and it should be an educated recommendation based on the pains I've run into when using them. If one who is making decisions doesn't experience the same pain, then the decision doesn't feel like one that's meant to help with that pain.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:15
  • 26
    Along with data points mentioned in today's post, we also keep a close eye on question quality. The blog below was our most recent look at the topic, and we feel good about the direction things are heading. This post also includes a link for a deeper dive into how we define "question quality." stackoverflow.blog/2019/11/12/…
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:17
  • 7
    @Pchandrasekar: Would this metric not be too simple going forward? This has been, in the past, a data point which has flown in the face of well-established heuristics.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:20
  • 2
    @JuanM: I see that. Could I also slice that data up by traffic volume or by tag? That's what I've been asking about for about a year now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:26
  • 97
    Looks like we're now optimizing for sand, not pearls. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:49
  • 25
    The amount of new sign ups can most likely be explained about people fearing to post their opinions using their main account, given the extensive censorship and that whole pronoun debacle.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:50
  • 20
    On Stack Overflow, @Lundin? Bull. If you're talking about your pronouns on Stack Overflow, you're already discussing something off-topic here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:51
  • 15
    ...see how long it took before I expressed that opinion, for example. Already someone cursing at me.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:53
  • 5
    @Lundin: Mostly because I had thought that this was a settled matter even if it left a backdoor open for picking a fight with a mod. I'm cursing the very thought of this being a thing in this capacity - especially since we now have the ability/power to edit those out of technical questions as if they are noise. I mean you no offense.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:55
  • 15
    "more signups" and "more questions" ... nothing about quality questions, and more importantly quality engagement from subject matter experts to provide good answers. I'm not a huge contributor, but in my limited focus I've seen quite a jump in really bad questions (that don't get closed or improved), and less than useful answers. As a contributor it's very disheartening to think that things are going to actually get worse not better as focus shifts to growing a userbase to try and emulate MySpace... Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 1:47
  • 9
    These are the simplest KPIs that they can go with: more users and more user activity. Those are proxies for generating revenue. Honestly, I would be happy at this point in my career to pay $5 a month personally (or have my employer foot the bill) if the answers had a certain level of quality. More questions and signups != revenue.
    – user9903
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 11:52
  • 7
    @RudolfOlah: Just because they're simple doesn't make them good. I maintain that more people asking questions has no bearing as to the quality of those questions, nor does more signups have any bearing to how much more revenue the site will generate (e.g. unauthenticated users without an ad blocker will always get ads, and they aren't participating on Careers/Jobs). But...I think you get my main thrust here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 17:29
  • 4
    @RudolfOlah: sure, but be extremely careful of using the wrong KPI. A 'signup' is not necessarily a 'user', at least not an active user. Some fraction of new user signups will bounce, some will only ever ask a single question and not come back, some will not even remember they signed up on that Q&A site that Google brought them to. Some fraction of new users will convert into active users (as measured over say 30/60/90/365d retention), and some of those will post low-quality/bad questions, some will post duplicate questions, and a small number will post good ones (non-duplicate, MCVE, etc).
    – smci
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 20:28
  • 4
    And then there are the "sign up anew for each new question" - users ... and ppl using 20 accounts - not for voting fraud, but for oither unbeknownst reasons. There are even ppl having automated create / sign up scripts - funnily enough often revealing themselfs to be of indian origin - not a hard fact but just a impression of the very limited parts of SO I watch. Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 17:26
248

Given the goals of the business as I outlined in my blog post, and given that supporting the Community is a top priority for Stack Overflow, where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think should be done in order to get there?

Bankrupt, unless drastic changes are made quickly.

I think a 180° is needed in terms of communication. It is very clear that Stack Overflow has entirely and permanently lost the trust of the most engaged users of the site. There's no complete going back to what it was before, that much is clear.

I appreciate that this may sound ridiculous coming from me, an absolute nobody by comparison, but the greatest resource y'all ever had was the consent and enthusiastic cooperation of a large swath of high-activity users. These users provide a large chunk of Stack Overflow moderation efforts, and used to be your advocates at the decision making centers of your customers.

In business terms, most of us are software developers by profession. Most of us have medium to high influence on which products our companies buy for us. Given that you're trying to sell Teams directly to companies, and Careers to us, it's vital for Stack Overflow to have and retain the trust and cooperation of the user base.

I'm being blunt here, but I hope I'm not being rude. In no particular order, these things need addressing:

  • Stack Overflow needs to regain the trust of your moderator community, which has seen waves of mass resignations on direct account of the company's conduct. If this trend can't be reversed, the biggest advantage Stack Overflow has over unmoderated spaces like Quora or Yahoo Answers will be gone.
  • Stack Overflow needs to invest in curation tools. The process by which engaged users keep the quality of this site high enough to retain experts has been terribly outdated for the better part of a decade.
  • Stack Overflow needs to lay off the current PR strategy. This isn't an ordinary company, and that much should be obvious. Textbook-style marketing and PR does not work here. Many of us know how the sauce is made, working in software development ourselves. That means that managing the message will always cause more damage than it prevents.
  • The friction of the new user experience is the greatest cause of unwelcomeness and unhappiness in the model. Most of the "elitist" and "unwelcoming" reputation of SO can be traced back to this. We don't have the tools to help new users succeed, and new users get too little actionable feedback to improve their posts and get that feedback too late. Some steps have been made in this direction, but it's not enough, and it's been done seemingly from top-down, rather than by soliciting our feedback. This might not be true, but it feels that way. This feeling is a symptom of the communication issue listed above.

If y'all take anything away from this answer at all, I'd like to say that we used to have a really good thing going here. Despite all the historic dysfunction, despite the obvious mistakes of the past, you used to be able to tap into the expertise of a diverse and highly skilled community of volunteers.

The mistakes of the past were that not enough was done to support Q/A. The mistakes of the present are that it seems like the company has forgotten who it owes its success to, namely the volunteers. Even if that isn't the case and Stack Overflow is very well aware, that fails to come across.

Also, and this might be petty or unrealistic, I still hope for and expect a full postmortem and resolution of the Monica situation, unblemished by what lawyers dictate. And I would hope for some respect towards the community managers y'all just let go.

The fact that we have to crowdfund severance pay for someone who, literally, dedicated the last decade of their life helping the company succeed; because y'all won't give them the respect of due notice or severance is heartless and incompatible with any company vision that keeps us in mind.

19
  • 8
    Quora has moderation. It is just unpredictable to a large degree, and totally lacking in transparency. The only thing they do better than SO is that you get a notification any time one of your posts gets deleted.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:01
  • 134
    Look, can we forget about that crucial employee kicked out without any kind of warning, send-off, and severance pay? That was already a week ago, let's not dwell on the past. Let's focus on what is really important: what is the absolute minimum we need to do to stop more mods from resigning? Because we really like the free work they put in
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:16
  • 40
    @Pekka I would suggest that there's a common theme here: the engaged community needs to be able to trust the company. The PR strategy violates that trust, as do ignored feature requests (for better curation tools and for improvements to the new user experience). The company's treatment of a long-standing employee also violates that trust.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:50
  • 3
    Quora has lots of moderation. It is 100% opaque (and no appeal), done by paid persons, and low quality (likely due to low wage). Quora is also ... less focused in its scope (which on one hand lowers the required moderation as there aren't any limits to the silliness, but on the other require moderation on (politically) charged subjects). Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:41
  • 5
    Paid answers (even with imaginary Internet points) and paid moderation haven't worked very well anywhere so far. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:45
  • 21
    @PeterMortensen Paid answers (even with imaginary Internet points) ... haven't worked well anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Stack Exchange network appears to have been quite successful in it's original mission of creating a high-quality knowledge repository (at least until 2014 or so) by paying with imaginary Internet points.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 23:38
  • 5
    @Pekka The CEO engaged with the community; we can't afford to drive him away, even if you're saying what we're all thinking. Best behaviour, and a little less snark, please.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 21:42
  • 29
    @wizzwizz4 after all that happened, deigning to write a Meta post and answer a few questions is a long, long way from "engaging with the community" yet - if a good starting point. Should this turn out to be a genuine, long-haul renewal of community relations (which I'm not holding my breath for) you will see my snark melt away like a snowman in the spring sun
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 8:08
  • 2
    @wizzwizz4 you're opting for saying "it's okay sir, continue this way"?
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 10:54
  • 2
    @Zhigalin-ReinstateCMs “It's okay sir, continue to read our passive, emotionless explanations of the issues we are experiencing, and do not be put off by the feelings they've evoked in us” is indeed what I'm opting for. We have to walk on eggshells around the high-ups in SE, because making them feel even a little bad about listening to us will merely discourage them from doing so, and we can't afford that.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 14:26
  • 9
    @wizzwizz4 that ship has sailed, circumnavigated the globe and sailed again.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 17:37
  • 7
    Hello @Magisch - thanks for your response. You make some good points and I agree with you in several areas. We should be working on different sets of tools to help mods and new users. Thanks to recent changes, we have seen encouraging results in terms of new user signups, more users completing questions, a lower percentage of questions being unfriendly, and stable question quality. But there is more we can do.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 18:50
  • 11
    In terms of changing our PR strategy, we are making efforts to highlight the authentic voices of more developers - many from our community - on our blog, newsletter, and podcast. And finally, when it comes to rebuilding trust, I will endeavor, through these conversations, to earn your trust about the rational for the changes we make and our long term plans.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 18:50
  • 16
    @Pchandrasekar I would like to see that. For all the grief you're getting here (a lot of it is residual anger), the jury is out at the moment, so you have a opportunity to deliver on what you say. That you engage in these spaces is a good first sign.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 19:11
  • 6
    @Pchandrasekar can we have any specifics though? Cause.... you're in an era where SE doesn't have much trust left... and this post points to "yeah yeah, I'll listen, trust me!". But then the post gets locked. It's....... too little too late. And whenever you do come in and post (props for that, truly. It's a step in the right direction), what you answer with is..... very high level, doesn't point to any true solution, and seems to come down to "trust us, it'll get better".
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 14:43
228

All of this is in pursuit of new and more productive ways to work with and listen to our community in the next era of the company.

I won't bring up all the gory details again, I'm sure you have heard of some and had your hand (aka signature) on many more than we know about. But let me sum it up:

Many of the experts that this community builds on think that the last 4+ months have been a huge step backwards in this regard. It has not been productive and you did not listen. Those employees that did listen were fired. So what is left of new, productive, listening is basically just "new". That's not a lot compared to where we started off.

This community lives from experts, not new users. If I ask a question, I don't care how many millions read it or feel warm, fuzzy and welcome browsing it. I care about the one person answering it. And even if that answer would not be perfect, not welcoming, not inclusive or anything, if it solves my problem? Hell yeah, I'm gonna take it. Because I'm a professional. I need a professional solution. I can tolerate everything around that, all that "feely" stuff that has moved into the focus over the last year. Would it be great if everybody was named Skeet and every answer was perfect? Sure. But on average I can tough out a non-welcoming answer when it compiles and solves my problem, but I cannot solve my problem if the expert with the knowledge is gone.

So please, as much as I like your drive to make the site better, you need to moderate your zeal. A good and welcoming community is not a quality on its own. This is not Facebook; nobody is here because of "the community". Everyone of us is here to solve a programming problem, first and foremost. If your insistence of being nice and politically correct to the point of avant-garde gets in the way of solving my problem, that is a problem. Because, again, I'm not here to be nice or experience niceness. That is a secondary objective in all parts of my life. If it becomes (or apparently is) your prime directive for this site, we move in very different directions.

55
  • 32
    get off of your soapbox. Alienating experts in the making in droves is not an acceptable price to pay for retaining current experts. This is true for small companies and teams as well as for larger communities. Even experts are replaceable
    – Vogel612
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:26
  • 32
    @Vogel612: Thanks for the vote of confidence. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:38
  • 8
    Experts in what? It seems like you may be referring to two groups of experts - SMEs and people who know how to write good content. Which type of expert are you focusing on here?
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:46
  • 70
    @Catija For me those two groups overlap heavily. I would probably not recognize a subject matter expert if not for their good content. But if someone who insists on calling me "dude" posts something that solves my SSL problem, my prime directive is getting my boss a secure connection, that's what I'm here for. If I'm treated nicely in the process, that is added benefit, if I'm not, I'll just complain that the internet is evil... but I'll take the solution anyway.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:27
  • 26
    Thanks @nvoigt to phrase out something I very much agree with and which seems completely forgotten in many recent changes.Also I would recommend everyone looking at Crocker's rules at sl4.org/crocker.html ; I think they are a far better start to build something than just lowering the bar and pampering users to feel "welcome" but just allowing them to do anything and blaming anyone that tries to put them back on track (like nowadays even downvoting a question is perceived by some as being "unwelcoming", without even considering the content of the question, which is all what matters). Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:13
  • 40
    Re "Everyone of us is here to solve a programming problem": Some (the majority?) are here thinking they are on a forum, at a helpdesk, or at a bootcamp (asking the instructors any question). The question interface does (almost) nothing to dispel that expectation. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:03
  • 44
    I'd define experts as users who have written thousands of upvoted answers. Such users are contributing much more to the site that a hobbyist asking a few questions, but this group of users is being marginalized to the point many of us are leaving. I for one have stopped contributing to stackoverflow three months ago. I was a member for 10 years, wrote 1161 answers, received over 5000 upvotes, and helped 5.8 million people.
    – meriton
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:12
  • 12
    @nvoigt Overlap, yes, but they aren't exclusive and, as one can learn to program, one can learn to write questions or answers - sometimes you just need some help. For whatever reason you care to accept, even if only by reputation and not reality, many very talented developers are afraid to write answers here. I've talked with several of them. So, as long as that reputation remains, we are poorer as a reference because we lack their potentially excellent contributions. I believe that helping both askers and answerers to succeed from the start are good things to work on.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:20
  • 13
    So, when we listen to the community, we are also working to listen to the people who want to participate but are afraid or confused... either they tried and failed and don't understand why, or they tried and got nothing in response, only silence, so they don't feel like their work was appreciated. And, to be clear, I believe the engaged meta community has long been asking for improvements to question asking and answering guidance so there's not necessarily a disagreement there. But talking to people who have failed is a good way to know how to improve things for them or people like them.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:23
  • 41
    I don't read this answer as saying that being welcoming isn't a priority; I read it as suggesting that it's a secondary priority to professional, correct answers to on-topic questions. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 23:14
  • 63
    Beginner-friendliness is amazing, full stop. But the minute quality starts suffering as a result, it destroys the reason beginners want to come to SO in the first place. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 23:58
  • 16
    @Catija What about the fact that according to SEDE data signups that post an answer within 3 months have been going down year on year every since 2013: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1184890 Are there any plans to encourage growth in the number of answers to match growth in questions? Or is this basic query miss-representative in some way? Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:17
  • 74
    @Catija "many very talented developers are afraid to write answers here. I've talked with several of them" Did any of those mention they would be less afraid if a more zealous, en vogue, avant-garde policy around personal pronouns would be implemented? I have not heard that even once when I talked to people. Yet it is the thing SO did and it's driving away real experts. The fact that the new norm here is so over the top US political instead of a common sense common ground people could rally behind is what I mean with "zeal".
    – nvoigt
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 7:21
  • 17
    I think you hit the nail on the head (this and the other answer that mentions KPIs). They want to grow but retention is just as important. Adding new experts to the community should help but retaining current experts is very very important. It doesn't matter how many new questions are asked if the answers are low-quality or if there are no answers.
    – user9903
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 11:57
  • 9
    @Catija As for gender issues, the answer is not as simple as making advocacy a matter of policy. The old answer used to be to focus on the site's topic and leave other stuff out since it has nothing to do with the site's topic, and if something was kind of rude, you could flag it. The new policy is for staff to make as big a deal of the issues as possible. That's polarizing and frightening and turned SO into a sociopolitical battleground, irrespective of what your opinion on the issues are. Who the heck feels more welcome because of that? That's nvoigt's point.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 2:52
145

I'll keep my feedback and question simple:

What is Stack Overflow's New "Why"?

26
  • 14
    That's a great video. Hopefully everyone who sees your post has the 20 minutes to view it. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:42
  • 46
    Prediction: there will not be an honest answer to this. ... not because Prashanth is a liar, necessarily - but because there can only be one main "why", one Telos, and we already know what that is, and neither Prashanth nor anyone else has the power to change this
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:20
  • 17
    @gdoron There is absolutely no problem whatsoever in making money and being "for-profit" company. I never said there was. The problem arises when you have massive VC interests pressuring for exponential growth, when that growth conflicts with what used to be your original goal. There is a limit to how much money there is in curating a high-quality library of questions and answers. There is much more money in selling luxury devices and maintaining the surrounding ecosystem like Apple does. It's in the nature of each field
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:53
  • 13
    Hey George - for a long time we have said that our mission is to "help developers write the script of the future." This continues to be true. Recently we have begun to say our mission is to help developers AND technical workers write the script of the future, reflecting the increasing diversity of knowledge being shared across our network. To accomplish this goal, we need to have a healthy, growing business and community. The blog post I shared today is a good articulation of how we plan to move forward in 2020 to fulfill this mission and support our users, customers, and community.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:23
  • 89
    @Pchandrasekar 'for a long time we have said that our mission is to "help developers write the script of the future."' - WHO has EVER said that?! Your own tour states: 'With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.' Edit, rest of the answer is corporate mumbo jumbo.
    – Script47
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:27
  • 74
    @Pchandrasekar "help developers write the script of the future" That doesn't sound familiar.
    – canon
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:27
  • 103
    @PChandrasekar help developers write the script of the future is a good marketing slogan (I mean this without snark) but it is not a good "why" in the above sense. One such "why" for the site used to be "to build the best and most up-to-date library of programming questions and answers on the planet, accessible for free to everyone with Internet and a computer". That's the kind of "why?" that can inspire well-paid professionals to voluntarily give up significant chunks of their time, for free, because they feel they are making a small contribution to making the world a slightly better place
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:51
  • 27
    @PChandrasekar Now you may want to respond that, yes, that is still your "why", of course, but it is not really true any more in any meaningful sense, a new, more elusive "why" seems to have replaced it. This already started happening long before you came on board... even long before the mess around Monica Cellio's termination... but your kicking THE most community-trusted and respected employee who still represented this "why" to the curb with what from the outside can only be interpreted as absolute callousness strongly suggests there is no renewed desire to revive it; quite the contrary.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:07
  • 32
    For all those who are not familiar with the phrase, help developers to "write the script of/for the future" and its association with Stack Overflow, I suggest that you try Googling "write the script for the future spolsky". This has been a company goal/mission statement for over three years.
    – Yaakov Ellis StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:12
  • 18
    @YaakovEllis after some Googling, it seems that that phrase didn't seem to make it onto meta or main? Only YT videos and external blogs. Was it not more of a tagline for the public?
    – Script47
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:49
  • 91
    I have to confess, this is the first time I've ever heard the phrase "writing the script of the future" used in a Stack Exchange context. And I have to say, I'm not a fan, despite the clever play on words. What does it mean, really? Aren't we all "writing the script of the future," in the sense that we are living on this earth and making our mark in whatever way we best can? If you like that phrase, you must certainly love phrases like "strategic initiatives that provide value-added propositions to our stakeholders," a similarly flowery (and equally meaningless) affectation. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:51
  • 39
    Perhaps "With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming." isn't as inspirational or memorable from a sound-bite perspective, but it does have the virtue of actually meaning something specific and actionable. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:53
  • 28
    @YaakovEllis I've done that, I'm getting a lot of talks and blog posts from Joel with that phrase, but nothing directly to do with SO. If it's been a company goal & mission statement for the last 3 years, you must be able to link to it at least somewhere on SO surely? Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 23:33
  • 12
    "Writing the script of the future" sort of lost out to "Where Developers Learn Share & Build" as a marketing scheme back in 2017. You still see it in some places, but it was mostly a sales pitch when they were trying to increase onboarding prior to Teams. It probably shouldn't be confused for a mission statement or a corporate vision though... those are completely different things. I am sure that Nike's corporate goals aren't to "Just do it", the only thing McDonalds corporates "I'm lovin' it" is profit - to name some famous ones which clearly highlight the difference between slogan and vision
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 9:08
  • 7
    My take: this "writing the script of the future" was a phrase that Spolsky threw around loosely as a description of what developers supposedly represent in society. The idea of this being some kind of SO mission statement doesn't seem to go back any further than mid 2019, as far as I can tell. I think it'd be fair to say Prashanth has taken a strong liking to the phrase and elevated its importance. (It doesn't make terribly much sense to me personally as a slogan/vision.) Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 17:28
134

I have a small question: why was the decision made to put the announcement here, instead of on Meta Stack Exchange? Putting it here has the effect of shutting out users who participate elsewhere in Stack Exchange, but don't participate on Stack Overflow or don't have enough reputation to qualify for an association bonus.

Also, can we please post this type of discussion over on Meta Stack Exchange instead next time, to allow these users to participate in them?

12
  • 14
    If you want engaged users, putting this somewhere where anyone with an association bonus or site participation can post doesn't seem too weird to me. Also... I'm lazy, let MSO have the moderating of this one XD Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:19
  • 14
    @Tinkeringbell: I think we have fewer pitchforks here too. At least, the few who had pitchforks are...um...otherwise preoccupied?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:21
  • 2
    @Tinkeringbell But why require SO participation for users who don't have enough reputation for an association bonus?
    – gparyani
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:21
  • 6
    @Makoto that's a good reason too. Parts of MSE have definitely been not so nice lately. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:26
  • 1
    @Tinkeringbell: Not everyone wants an SO account, some of them because they want to limit who has access to their e-mail & IP addresses.
    – Scortchi
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:29
  • 24
    We will engage on MSE as well. The blog post was referencing Stack Overflow and we wanted to keep discussion of it here primarily but the CMs will help watch MSE.
    – Juan M Staff
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:30
  • 46
    About MSO/MSE as the place for the main post (versus the link to the main post): Please don't get too hung up on it. There was deliberation about this internally, and and arguments made in each direction. I can understand both sides. If you don't want to reply on MSO, just reply on MSE. It will be read as well.
    – Yaakov Ellis StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:12
  • 2
    @YaakovEllis Would be nice to know what those arguments were, and why the pros of posting here outweighed the pros of posting on MSE.
    – gparyani
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:13
  • 50
    @gparyani sorry, not going to happen here. It will only lead to people saying why their preferred argument is correct. And in the end, it is what it is. I just want to emphasize that we are sensitive to the feelings here, and sorry that we can't satisfy everyone. That said, I would direct you more to the content than the location as a subject for discussion.
    – Yaakov Ellis StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:31
  • 1
    @YaakovEllis if you would abstain from mentioning those arguments because that would lead to hurt, well, that ship has already sailed.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:07
  • 29
    @Renan I will not avoid a discussion solely because it will raise tough questions (please see my lowest voted answer on this site if you want proof). I will avoid it if the discussion itself will not add anything positive. I also have to ration my time and energy among many different things. I have said my piece here, am not going to invest more. Too many other bugs to fix.
    – Yaakov Ellis StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:09
  • 1
    @Yaakov Personally I find it sad that the company can't even be transparent and open about such trivial things any more :(
    – Voo
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 8:16
133

given that supporting the Community is a top priority for Stack Overflow, where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think should be done in order to get there?

Is there a plan to replace the missing community managers, or is another team being lined up to support this? A community like the one you see here didn't come about by 'magic' and however or why it happened you've lost a lot of the people recently, who helped make the community what it is today.

With so much that's happened which the community (at least the active vocal part) have been hurt by, can you make some promises of where the business is heading, and what plans there are around this expansion into the future?

12
  • 14
    Yes, we fully intend to kick off a new round of moderator elections on the sites that need them. We're still working through updating that process, but want to be sure our communities have the support they require to thrive.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:59
  • 127
    "want to be sure our communities have the support they require to thrive" Then why have CMs been fired recently? Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:00
  • 81
    @Pchandrasekar I believe this question was about the community managers, the employees, rather than the volunteer moderators. The numbers of each have decreased recently. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:05
  • 11
    We are looking at ways to restructure the workload for our CM team. We know that we’re in for quite a stretch but the leadership is coming together to create plans for community support. We’ll keep sharing about this as we get more updates.
    – Juan M Staff
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:12
  • 104
    @JuanM Better update quickly. Because this awfully sounds like: "we intend to invest in the community ... by having more volunteers doing all the pesky work". This is really crucial here: when asked about CMs, to come back and talk about "more moderators", that is really ... not good.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:39
  • 1
    I'm presuming this to mean 'No more paid employees' which.... sucks, but if that's what required then so it will be. Hopefully it means the mods (and moderation teams) get more tooling etc to deal with the issues. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 16:55
  • 4
    @djsmiley2kindarkness Most of the really powerful mod tools (e.g. utterly incinerate all traces of an entire network-wide distributed coordinated spam attack with the press of a magical button and some SQL scripts) aren't available to moderators; only CMs. And I would be a little bit terrified if I gained access to some of them. It'd be illegal and unethical to give moderators access to do some things that the CMs do on a regular basis (not going into details). More tooling would be excellent, and help hugely (can't stress this enough!), but it can't solve all the problems; we need CMs.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 21:39
  • 6
    @Pchandrasekar You don't need elections on Judaism; simply reinstate Monica. Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 20:21
  • 5
    @Pchandrasekar first, this question is about your staff, the CMs (and we're still demanding an explanation why they've been fired at least). second, if you continue with the current policy I'm afraid you will have no candidates for that new round of moderator elections...
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 10:57
  • 1
    @Pchandrasekar: Why do you need a new moderator election "process?" Is there something wrong with the one you already have? Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 15:29
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey We're not really changing how elections work externally in a huge way. The big work being done is on automating the internal side of things so that we can handle multiple elections simultaneously more easily. Right now, elections are quite a bit of work so we generally only have one in each phase per week. With the automations being built, we could increase that to address the backlog more quickly. On the process side, we're looking at small improvements like letting people rank as many nominees as they wish rather than only the top three.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 14:21
  • @Catija - That sounds interesting. Thanks for describing the anticipated change. Approximately when do you think elections will start to be announced? I'm guessing it wouldn't be before the last week of February? Commented Feb 3, 2020 at 7:47
113

TL DR

1. Why are you seeking our input now?

2. What do you consider our role and the level of importance of such for the continuation of the site?

3. Does it matter to you that people on here are devastated?

4. ... That people feel discarded and unappreciated?

5. How are you going to make the business model mix with a community driven model?


Meta is supposedly a teeny minority, so why come to us now?

It was pointed out in no uncertain terms, by your company that meta is insignificant, in terms of the traffic/participation on the site.

there are Millions of users on Stack Overflow whose needs aren't being met because in the past we've spent so much time on Meta which has .015% of Stack Overflow's active users and is not representative of the community as a whole.

1. Given this, why are you seeking our input now?
2. Rather, what do you consider our role and the level of importance of such for the continuation of the site?

Mistrust for the company, are you willing to remedy this? If so, How?

I have long held a mistrust for the business side of Stack Overflow. I have been fully aware that it's a business and, by definition, needs to make money. I gave up the illusion that the community has control some time ago. Which is why I have been impatient with people rallying against the business, as I know the business will ultimately do what it believes to be in its own interest and will only include "us" - the community - if it's in the business' interest to do so.

Call me a cynic, I call it realism.

enter image description here

Bear with me, this is leading somewhere....

To back up a bit. Many years ago - maybe 8? I was not happy on this site. I came across two people. Tim Post and Shog. These two men gave me a tremendous amount of hope for this site. They are highly intelligent and have unique ways of grasping this community and how it works and what it (we) need. It is solely because of these two people that I stayed on the site. Well, left and came back.

I spent many years working on the site, getting to know people and being part of a real community. A community that mattered. I took a break last year and a few weeks into the break all hell broke loose and four months later the site is no longer identifiable. The fallout on this has forced many people to leave parts of the network or the network completely and I suspect you probably want some people to leave, but you've lost a lot of wheat with the chaff.

Now Shog has gone. A lot of the moderators have gone, I'm feeling even more grief than I did when I wrote The world is big and I am SO small. What are the implications for our meta community with the changes in Stack Overflow?. The thought of going back to the mod room without Jon C, Robert H, Ed, George, Madara and Shog is unbearable. You have NO idea how much these men gave to the network. NO IDEA. Shog went above and beyond! The number of chats and time he gave on weekends and late into the night. Always helpful, always kind. He would call it like he saw it, but he was never nasty. So on top of these great mods you've lost the best Community Manager Stack Overflow ever had.

Now Shog "leaves" the network, suddenly. Sudden and shrouded in mystery, unlike Jon Ericson's resignation announcement. It breeds suspicion and mistrust. Even writing this, I'm wondering, will this affect my chances of being reinstated as a moderator. It's really not a nice atmosphere.

From an email from Robert Harvey (yes I have his permission to post)

I think the thing that hurts the most is that none of my contributions seem to have had any value to them. I spent endless hours toiling on Stack Overflow, working with the corporation on quality issues, shepherding the scope of Not Programming Related into the site that it is today. And that all gets swept under the rug because I've said a few things on Meta in the past month that they didn't want to hear.

This breaks my heart!

Your business has hurt us! It has caused people to shed tears!

3. Does it matter to you that people on here are devastated?
4. That people feel discarded and unappreciated?

Even writing this, I cannot reconcile how even if you do care how that fits into a corporate structure of making a bottom line. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Your business and our community are a bit like water and oil - they don't mix.

The irony of the welcoming push and zero tolerance for abuse, what about compassion for the feelings of the people who have been here for years and put hours of work into the site: Contributing content, moderating content, brainstorming.

5. How are you going to make the business model mix with a community driven model?

Please be honest with us. You are dealing with an intelligent community, many of us are literal thinkers, and we spot inconsistencies. So be straight with us, Please.

10
  • 36
    This really captures how many of us feel. How are you going to make the business model mix with a community driven model? that seems like the key question! Pretty sure most of us would much more appreciate a candid response à la "hey, I'm here to get revenue to X million USD; everything else - including you guys' lofty idealistic goals of being a knowledge library, your feelings, etc. - is irrelevant to the investors who are my bosses. Sorry, nothing personal. BUT here is why I think things can still work out for all of us: ...." over optimistic pep-talk we all can recognize as BS
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 8:22
  • 7
    @Pekka Exactly! I don't mind business people doing business, in the end, that pays the servers, and the people running the servers and providing the technical basis for all of this. But don't come here telling us that the agenda is about the community, when it is only about the business. I think there would be ways to get to both. But not by starting with BS (business school) bingo with us.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 8:34
  • 13
    The only thing I can disagree with is "Your business and our community are a bit like water and oil - they don't mix." I think that making money is not in contradiction with building library of knowledge. Main problem this site has (if we take out recent events that broke trust) is managing expectations of people that come by and think they can just ask any questions they like. I think that problem is solvable one. It was just never tackled the right way, and it might be harder to tackle it now when the whole place is on fire, but it is not impossible.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 8:54
  • 10
    Users should stop feeling hurt and having their hearts broken. When one partner of the relationship refuses to admit any wrongdoing, refuses to talk about the hurt and betrayal while newcomers, and disgruntled users, continue to blame the toxicity of Meta and SO, it's time to acknowledge the truth. The rapport is doomed, call it trust, call it relationship, call it community, call it whatever you like but stop hoping things will go back to the good old days. It won't. Unless, or until, the day comes SO begging with cap in hand for users to save it from bankruptcy. If that day ever arrives.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 10:46
  • 9
    I think you're a romantic. A true realist wouldn't pour their emotions in an answer to someone who will not read the upteenth post that is telling them what they already know. The CEO's job is making SO profitable.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 10:56
  • 4
    @Mari-LouA Not in my experience. The CEO's job is often just to achieve the investment goals of the investor. This often means diluting the shareholding with incremental convertible loans to rescue the company repeatedly over a sufficient length of time that the investors can exit by selling a firm that seems to be sustainable on the surface.
    – Frank
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 12:10
  • 3
    @Mari-LouA I don't expect an honest answer, I wrote this for our community. I gave up rallying many months ago - as mentioned in my answer. This is a counter post to the CEOs post. Asking for our feedback. Why? To use us? Do they need us? Are they placating us? Who knows.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 12:25
  • 2
    @Frank I did a youtube video about just that - they've over extended and put money into things that are a waste of time and neglected the thing that brings them traffic - this site - it's no accident the ceo has posted on MSO. Most of the other sites are incidental. youtube.com/watch?v=UfQQ0x2uFdE&feature=youtu.be
    – user3956566
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 12:26
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb I don't want to second guess you but even if it can't be answered, these questions are probably important - and a side that folks that haven't been immersed in the company will not see. I don't think it should be deleted, even if there's no direct answer Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 14:55
  • 3
    @JourneymanGeek I would dearly like answers to these questions, I just don't expect any honest answers to them. I didn't post it here originally, as it didn't seem an answer to the actual question, so I posted it as a question. I don't mind either way, as long as someone asks. It's what's been torturing us for some time now. In this format, I can't see these questions being answered in the comments at any rate... :/ Edited it out, thanks for the feedback.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 18:27
111

2 instant reactions to the blog post:

  1. These websites and communities are bleeding for months now, why is this the first time we hear from you?

  2. Even now, you didn't actually address anything that bothers the community. Like the disgusting slandering of Monica, the mass resignations of our moderators and your volunteers, the abrupt firing of Shog9, etc.

17
  • 32
    I guess you are unaware, but Monica and SEI reached a settlement. The terms of the settlement probably restrict SEI and Monica from saying more on the matter. So it is very unlikely that he will address that issue here, now.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:00
  • 21
    @Raedwald, I'm fully aware of the opaque settlement, but I'm pretty sure the settlement doesn't prevent him from issuing an apology.
    – gdoron
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:06
  • 20
    @gdoronissupportingMonica Pretty sure it does. They've reached an acceptable stand-off where nobody will go further than what has already been said. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:13
  • 5
    @gdoronissupportingMonica It actually might - issuing an apology would be tantamount to accepting responsibility - and from what was made public of the settlement, it seems that they are trying to put it down to (mostly) a misunderstanding on Monica's part.
    – Someone
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:13
  • 13
    @Raedwald You are likely correct. But the boss needs to know - directly in response to his post - that this is still a very big issue among the users. (Arghh...strikethrough doesn't work in comments...incomplete markdown support...but that's minor in the grand scheme of things.) Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:20
  • 28
    It's important not to get hung up on the mention of the company's treatment of Monica. There are many other breaches in community trust that the company must take steps to address; some noted here and many not.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:50
  • 6
    @Lewis - misunderstanding? Have you been paying any attention?? Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:06
  • 7
    @GeorgeMReinstateMonica Yes, i have been paying attention - I said the company were putting it down to a misunderstanding - that does not necessarily mean that it is my point of view.
    – Someone
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:08
  • 18
    OK, stop asking for apologies. An apology and a couple of dollars will buy me a cup of coffee, and that's all it will do. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:46
  • 10
    @RobertHarvey, I taught each one of my sons to say sorry every time they misbehave. There is no shame at admitting of wrong doing, it's human. And most importantly, unless you actually acknowledge your misdeeds it's 100% likely you'll repeat them. And if you wish a Scripture bit: King Saul had 2 very very minor sins and God took away his kingship while King David that had 2 horrible sins (sleeping with a married woman and causing her husband to die in war) kept his Kingship. Why? Because King David immediately owned his mistake I have sinned against the LORD while King Saul made excuses.
    – gdoron
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:16
  • 11
    This is what an apology gets you. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:19
  • 11
    @RobertHarvey I literally loled. I agree this is what an "apology" will get you. It doesn't really invalidates my point, acknowledging wrongdoings is an essential first step.
    – gdoron
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:27
  • 16
    Cricket 🦗. He wont answer the serious questions.
    – JonH
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:47
  • 13
    @RobertHarvey That post was very highly upvoted for quite a long time -- while it still seemed like it might be a genuine apology and outlining what sounded like it would be an attempt to make good. However, it eventually became clear that it promised something very very different from what was being delivered and that is when many hundreds of upvotes turned to many more downvotes. By then it wasn't anything but an "apology"; there was no attempt to right the wrongs.
    – Glen_b
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 3:43
  • 5
    @RobertHarvey we want a sincere apology, not that half-assed excuse you have linked
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 11:09
99

I would like to take a moment to welcome the new CEO to meta.

Community engagement and inclusion is a top priority for Stack Overflow in 2020. Already, the team has established and released a plan for improving communication and empowering our users internally

This is indeed a nice way for community engagement but how will SO work towards repairing the previous trust issues that they had with the community? Which I think is more important than better-established communication. For healthy community engagement, the company needs to have the trust of the community.

13
  • 14
    'It will be a pleasure to work with you on making this community better.' - I hope this comment doesn't get deleted because I don't mean offence by it but I highly doubt we'll be working with him. This seems more like a formality than anything else. But, I'd happily be proved wrong. 'Throw a dog a bone and it'll stop barking'
    – Script47
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:03
  • @Script47 Actually, I now recognize that this looks like its formality but that's wasn't my intention there. I happen to write the post in a certain flow that I forgot about the actual disaster. I have edited it out if it looked like a formality, I don't want it to look that way.
    – weegee
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:14
  • 31
    I understand trust is something that is earned over time and through actions. By engaging here, I can better listen and communicate. As we push forward with The Loop, our moderator council, and our Tiger Team initiatives, I hope these efforts will prove useful to the community and productive in rebuilding a good working relationship.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:02
  • 17
    @Pchandrasekar what is the "Tiger Team" initiative? I don't remember seeing anything about this on the blog, and a quick Google search doesn't turn anything up.
    – LShaver
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:13
  • 19
    The "Tiger Teams" are the cross-functional teams described in this blog post, @LShaver. Here's the general definition of the concept.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:22
  • 81
    I can only quote from George Stocker's excellent Twitter commentary: "- After ignoring repeated questions from the community - after not engaging on Meta - After avoiding any and all feedback they could - after firing their best CMs ... Stack Overflow has a tiger team charged with figuring out why community relations are so bad." twitter.com/gortok/status/1219710774949621763
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:22
  • 8
    @Pekka: That's very amusing, but consider this perspective: the current Stack Exchange administration might genuinely not get it. Ergo, the need for a study. "Well, I could explain it better, but I’d need charts and graphs and an easel." Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:36
  • 3
    @RobertHarvey I may be wrong - but I can't see how it could be possible they don't know exactly what they are doing. The administration still largely consists of the same people that were firmly at the helm back in October. Shog was fired only a week or so ago.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:39
  • 1
    @Pekka: I don't think the people with that knowledge are calling the shots anymore. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:42
  • 13
    @RobertHarvey I am confident the people who are calling the shots know what they want to know... and nothing in this post will change any of that one iota
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:45
  • 20
    @JNat Why is this "tiger team" operating behind closed doors, why has nobody said they have been contacted for further precisions/clarifications (I've done things like this in the past. Feedback is never clear enough that you are fine with the original version), and why should we trust a process operating behind closed doors for anything? The last closed doors process saw two respected, esteemed CMs get fired. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:47
  • 5
    The CMs have been trying to keep the moderators as up-to-date as we can (particularly with regards to the mod council and mod training teams), and have posted on the private mod team about this too. We're calling these "Tiger Teams" here not having used the term before, which may also be confusing... so I'd agree that it's fair to say that the initiative is fairly opaque, yes, @SébastienRenauld — particularly to the community in general. As the blog post says, By the end of this quarter, all of these initiatives will be shared publicly — hopefully there'll be other updates along the way too.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 9:45
  • 4
    @Pchandrasekar you are aware that people here think that the "Loops" are a way of excluding the community?
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 11:04
89

... and given that supporting the Community is a top priority for Stack Overflow, where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think should be done in order to get there?

First of all: if supporting the community is your top priority, I am really worried about things that have lower priority for you. Because the actions regarding that top priority were epic fails for months to come.

What I see is:

  • SE Inc. seems to have given up on the initial idea of a really broad network with many different communities. You only talk about Stack Overflow, and if at all, it is about bringing together "IT related" topics. So: I see that part of the Stack Exchange network to be left out in the rain, to slowly die. If so, just say so. Offer the affected communities a reasonable path forward (out of here), instead of not doing anything.
  • That you try to win back our hearts, without moving one inch towards the community requests. I hear the same "great" words that Sara and David used some months back. Empty promises, which weren't executed on. I don't care about words. I care about actions. And your actions were to throw out a respected moderator, and to then simply sit out the massive drain of moderators and users. To a point where you released the hounds, err, lawyers and of course, to then stop talking at all. And to finally let go of two of your most respected community managers. It is nice that you dare to show up here in person, but it really doesn't matter much. Actions matter.

So, what is my outlook?

  • Very much depends: if you are lucky, you can convince more people to buy your product than you convinced former users to badmouth SE Inc. and its products. Bleak reality: any IT professional I know who is just slightly interested in this place has a bad opinion about it by now, because they observed what happened here over the last months and years.
  • Then maybe, you end up with a growth of user base, revenue, profit.
  • But it is also very much possible that fewer and fewer users will be willing to do that "user moderation" work, and that Stack Overflow turns more and more into a garbage bin, populated mostly by people going "Give me the code for my homework ASAP". And even with millions of such users, you might not be so happy. Because it isn't such people who get consulted when the CTO asks "should we buy SO for Teams for our company?".

Beyond that, simply see what George Stocker has to say.

But yes sure: I intend to stay here, too. To learn what you have to say, and more importantly: to observe your actions in the next months.

I can't tell you what I would need from you to convince me to start providing content here again, or do much moderation work. But I can tell you: probably a lot, but zero of the things that you tried lately.

1
  • 4
    I don't think "community" means the same for SE as it does for us now. We see community as the folks we've seen around on main and meta, answering and interacting, the folks who've built the value. They see community as everyone who's not actually on the site yet, and everyone whoose identity fits their vision. Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:47
72

What is the plan for Area 51 and the SE sites that are still listed as Beta? The person spearheading that is no longer with the company. Is SE interested in launching new sites? Will there be a definitive plan to graduate sites?

7
  • 29
    I doubt anyone in the current SE management even knows what Area 51 really is. For them it's probably just some weird relic from the past, kept just for historical value. Otherwise really can't see any reason why they kicked out the only person who kept it alive and running. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:44
  • 1
    I'm actually one of the people doing a lot of the work on the site lifecycle - Robert, JNat and I were working on it together. We had a plan that was about ready to roll out in September but... well... things happened. We're in the middle of discussions about the future of Area 51 and the beta sites. There are lots of options but we're doing what we can to advise in a way that shows the whole picture of what each option would mean.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 14:33
  • @Catija - When you say "beta sites," do you mean the sites that are still called beta, or the ones that were called beta up until recently? When you say "advise," should I take it that you are like the career diplomats at the State Department, who stay in their positions for long periods, as opposed to the political appointees? // Will new staff be recruited to replace the three community managers who left recently? Commented Feb 3, 2020 at 8:15
  • @aparente001 There's two kinds of graduation. Full graduation means you have standard reputation levels to gain privs (i.e. 2k rep to edit, etc). It also means you get a custom favicon and top banner design. Partial graduation means you lose the word "Beta". Contrast Parenting.SE (partial) with Politics.SE (beta)
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2020 at 13:23
  • @Machavity - Thanks. Which do you think Catija meant? Commented Feb 3, 2020 at 17:09
  • @aparente001 I think she means they want to full graduate all sites, but the process is ill-defined at present
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2020 at 17:11
  • Agreed on the process being ill-defined at the moment, @Machavity — what we hope to be able to accomplish is that it is clarified, and simplified, from start to finish.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Feb 21, 2020 at 11:26
72

I've been a moderator on Skeptics for almost 9 years, and a few years less on Biology. I resigned earlier this month. I have more reputation on Meta Stack Exchange than any sane person should have; the only user that was never employed by SE with more MSE reputation than me is Monica Cellio. I have more highly upvoted feature requests than anyone else on Meta Stack Exchange, so I'm kind of the poster child for the heavily involved MSE community.

If this outreach had happened a few months ago, I'd have welcomed it. I had already decided to resign at the end of the year, but I was still waiting for a reason to reverse that decision. That justification for keeping my moderator status never came, but one event happened that was outside even my worst predictions: SE fired Shog and Robert.

Robert was instrumental in getting all the sites in the SE network off the ground. Anyone that participated in the early beta of a site has seen him involved in that. Firing him means you don't care about the original idea of the SE network anymore.

Shog was the strongest presence among the CMs for the whole time I was a moderator. There was nobody else with that much knowledge about all the details of the software itself, a lot of wisdom about how to handle situations we moderators weren't sure of, and a bunch of kinda inscrutable gardening metaphors. I can't really put into words just how destructive firing Shog was for the relations between the moderators and SE.

A few months ago, I would have been cautiously optimistic about this message. Firing the two most experienced CMs, and causing the resignation of the third most experienced CM, tell a quite different story than the blog post and this meta post. Why should we believe that SE wants to invest into the community when the CM team is being gutted and the most experienced members are fired or leaving because they're frustrated with SE?

Actions speak louder than words, and the most recent actions by SE speak very loudly that the company doesn't value the community. Firing two experienced CMs in this undignified way is a very clear message, and words alone won't change anything about this. I don't know how to fix this, but it will certainly take more than words.

I don't expect an answer to this post; there are a few good reasons and plenty of bad reasons why an official answer to this would be a bad idea for SE. But I wanted to use the chance to post this in a place that is likely to be read by SE management.

1
  • 8
    I am also a long term mod (more than nine years on physics plus a pro tem bit on Code Golf; and beta badge holder on Stack Overflow) who has left the network, and while I held out a few days after the firing of Shog9 and Robert that was the event that pushed me from confused uncertainty about the future of the network to considering if I still wanted to be part of it. Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 3:12
67

Hi Prashanth,

I strongly disagree with the removal of Shog9, the circumstances motivating Jon Ericson's departure, the "legal says so", and the overall disregard that has been given towards transparency with the users of this platform. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not go into depth about each of these, but if these events continue, there won't be any more content creators and none of this will matter.

Your leadership team needs more people who are actually experienced in the type of content creation that makes Stack Overflow what it is today. Jeff, Joel, Sam, Ben, Jay, Jon, Josh… they all had that and they are gone. I wish you luck in replacing that talent pool.

Stack Overflow itself needs to expand the on-topic definition to include more experts, to refine the tools for new users to build quality posts, and a way to forge alliances in the community to allow users a path towards being successful here.

To recap, in order to move forward, Stack Overflow the company needs to build:

  1. Trust
  2. Experience
  3. Tools

in that order.

If by some miracle all of that gets accomplished, then perhaps we can all reconvene and discuss how to get to the 10x revenue growth that is the underlying theme here.

-Travis

0
64

[G]iven that supporting the Community is a top priority for Stack Overflow, where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think should be done in order to get there?

To say that the community-company relations have been... turbulent lately would be a severe understatement. I don't exaggerate when I say that in the past few months, we've experienced the largest loss of trust in the company by the engaged users of the site to date, on a scale so far unprecedented in Stack Exchange history.

Unfortunately, this coincided with the exact time that you took over the mantle of CEO from Joel. This means that the community blamed you in particular a lot over the past few months - a new CEO and a heck of a lot of chaos at the same time? People make the obvious connection.

Whether or not blaming you was justified, that is now something that you have to take into account. You have to keep in mind that people are angry at you, and that those are the very people who you as a company most rely on to keep your most basic feature - public Q&A - running.

If you sincerely want to support the community, then that's awesome. The problem is, you have a lot of different problems at the moment that are going to get in your way majorly if you don't address them.

Off the top of my head, some of the issues that are most affecting the community at the moment are...

...and there are others.

People are going to blame you, personally, if you now fail to address these issues. People are angry. Whether or not it is justified, any changes you make are going to be met with anger and resistance until you have regained the trust of the community. That's something you need to bear in mind.

I certainly hope you have a plan to address the issues mentioned above and the others that are currently affecting the network. But in any case, you should be aware of what the reaction is going to be to anything you post.


For instance, I was rather annoyed this was posted on Meta.SO instead of Meta.SE. After all, I don't use Stack Overflow the site. I'm more a user of the rest of the network - I have over 100,000 reputation accumulated across the network. I would have missed this rather important post if it hadn't been cross-posted to Meta.SE (thanks for that, Juan, BTW). Small things like that build up to a general state of dissatisfaction, especially against the backdrop of the total loss of trust in the company that has happened recently.

5
  • 2
    Apparently there was some internal discussion as to whether to post on MSO or MSE; kudos to Juan M for posting on MSE, but I get the impression it wasn't his decision alone.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:16
  • 1
    Well, the Monica case happened shortly before him joined the company, so it is probably not his fault. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 20:41
  • 9
    @VictorStafusa Yes, it is. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 10:14
  • 13
    After reading the CEO's long-awaited blog post, I could only draw three feasible conclusions: (1) The new CEO has been kept blissfully unaware of all the recent turmoil; (2) The new CEO doesn't really care about all the recent turmoil; or (3) The new CEO is mostly concerned about "driving forward" and doesn't really mind how many of us old-timers depart in the wake of the new program and new vision. (I'm not really sure which of those is most accurate, though I suspect it's #3.)
    – J.R.
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 21:26
  • 5
    Why shouldn't we blame him? He's the CEO, he's responsible for all this bad behavior. And hiding in the bushes is frankly not the mark of a good leader Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 0:45
60

Where do you see Stack Overflow going?

Down the drain. From the blog post it is pretty clear that growth has become the only relevant factor, even though the post is filled with some fluffy words about community building to obscure that fact. This is not going to go over well with the parts of the community interested in building a high quality content repository - although you've already lost many of those people, like me, a while ago.

Saying something like

We learned that we needed much better channels to listen to our moderators and community members

after actively ignoring meta over issues such as the CC 4.0 license, malevolent ads, or the Monica situation is simply absurd. The issue was never with the community side of communication, but the SE Inc side; and firing / letting go people like Shog and Jon clearly shows you have no intention to improve this. So under that premise, the blog post is yet another sign that SE as a company is rapidly becoming toxic - which has also been made clear from public statements of your former employees.

I wish you the best of luck on your road of turning the SE network into Yahoo Answers 2.0. Personally, I will begin mirroring the latest SO data dump to ensure the content is not lost in the event that SE folds or decides not to make this data available anymore.

1
  • 5
    Well, even Wikipedia knows that Yahoo Answers is trash. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Answers#Quality_of_answers. "Researchers found that questions seeking factual information received few answers and that the knowledge on Yahoo! Answers is not very deep." Maybe Stack Overflow is looking to sell to Verizon (Yahoo's owner)?
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 13:31
58

In the blog post, you mention

As we look forward to 2020, we plan to invest in public Q&A

Can you share any details or even vague directions of how you plan to invest in public Q&A? I ask because there is already an established (and very long) list of things you can do to improve it.

56

You remember the debacle 3-4 month ago?

I am more committed than ever to creating a welcoming and inclusive community across Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange, and the mistakes we made over the past few weeks made that worse, not better. I know we have lost the trust of many of you, and that trust must be re-earned over time by more than just words. by David Fullerton, emphasis mine

My response 3 month ago:

I want to say Let's forget it, but currently I can't. But with the above statement it seems I can in future.

I say this, because in the past you often said sorry, promised improvements, but forgot it a few month later. Just make sure you remember this statement in a year. And ten.

Between this and today, the rate in making things worse increased.

Why should we trust you today? Why should we ever trust you?

5
  • 23
    The idea of 'inclusive community' is, ironically, very divisive. For me personally, living in Central Europe, 'inclusivity' is a very North American idea that is strongly related to domestic politics and modern trends. I would prefer if SO remained agnostic to prevailing religion/dogma/fashion etc.
    – Frank
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 11:07
  • Removing 'religion' from @Frank comment and I don't understand it - at least not from a SO perspective. Why not evaluate the quality of an idea on its merits rather than from where it originates? If we change time periods, Frank could have easily substituted "democracy" for "inclusive community" above. Technically, my literal reading of his comment says that if some new language comes "in fashion", we should not address it, that is, if said language originated in North America. Hopefully, NOT what he meant, but that is what it says, at least to me.
    – JoeG
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 12:11
  • 3
    @JoeG A modification to my response. No! The fact that these ideas are originated in N.America and propagandized by N.America is literally a culturally attack. They are antithetical to national traditions, a good example being this: bbc.com/news/business-51261999 which I came across today. This is an attack on British culture. It is not acceptable. It is precisely the same as if Soviet cold-war ideas became popular in N.America. There is no intrinsic merit to an idea, it is always arbitrary and subjective. Culture, tradition, and identity has meaning beyond the abstract.
    – Frank
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 12:43
  • 3
    @Frank It is an attack on American traditions as well. It's not so much "North America" launching the attack; it's a set of ideologically motivated people. In many ways, it's an ideological decedent or rehash of Marxism (same basic assumption of class oppression, same basic answer of top down societal transformation). The people pushing those ideologies are already present in your own culture, even if they haven't gotten as entrenched into positions of power there yet. I assure you they're doing everything they can to get there.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 2:43
  • 1
    @jpmc26 agreed I would not characterise N America as attacking, but characterise the attack as North American . The ideas are hard to separate from N.American climate, mood, conditions. This PC oppression, ironically, could not originate from for example Russia, because while the country does have highly centralised media, it does tend to have much more on nduvidual freedom in what can be said or done than in 'liberal' West
    – Frank
    Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 18:02
55

The key to Stack Overflow’s future and growth are the millions of developers from around the world who find the site useful, but who haven’t yet been welcomed into the community. We need to expand our reach and engagement to ensure these developers join the conversation and push their own learning to new heights.

  • What sort of "welcoming" are we talking about here?
  • How do you plan on expanding your reach and engagement while not further eroding the original goal of building a quality archive of Q&As?
  • Is the goal of the platform changing to focus on teaching as opposed to just building an archive?

A key part of great product development is to stay close to customers, listen, and take a thoughtful, data-driven, and research-oriented approach to building products. In our case, it is critical that we work closely with our community to listen, change, and evolve rapidly. As an example, over the past several months, we had a lot of dialog with our community about how best to enforce and evolve our code of conduct. We learned that we needed much better channels to listen to our moderators and community members. We have not evolved the existing channels of engagement for power users in our community, like Meta, or articulated how we intended to make improvements going forward. This has caused friction as our user base and business have rapidly grown. We acknowledge these issues, apologize for our mistakes, and have plans for improving in the future.

I think it should be clarified that this paragraph makes it seem that the cause of the issues was a lack of tools or rather the tools not being sufficient (essentially blaming meta as a piece of software). But that really wasn't the case, was it? It was your (read: SE's) refusal to budge/communicate coherently. No amount of tools will fix that; the teams need to be fixed. So, my questions would be:

  • What steps have been taken to prevent something like that happening again?
  • What steps are being taken to address the concerns of the power users that have been raised for so many years?
13
  • 23
    Thanks for the question. Respectfully, we do not believe that welcoming, teaching, and empowering new generations of beginners is mutually exclusive with building a quality archive. As noted in one of my comments above, we also pay attention to question quality and have been encouraged by recent data. You can check out our research on this topic and how we define question quality at the link below. stackoverflow.blog/2019/11/12/…
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:15
  • 4
    @Pchandrasekar should I expect a comment addressing the other points I raised?
    – Script47
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:16
  • 73
    'Respectfully, we do not believe that welcoming, teaching, and empowering new generations of beginners is mutually exclusive with building a quality archive.' - Please, STOP using these buzz words, also, respectfully, the goal of this site was not to help new beginners or to empower them. Those were side effects.
    – Script47
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 18:17
  • 56
    @Pchandrasekar: I don't believe they are mutually exclusive either. But sometimes that encouragement has to come in the form of "learn the fundamentals first." The Stack Exchange platform was never designed to provide extensive teaching of the fundamentals of software development to neophytes. Nobody teaches brain surgery to a first-year med student. Nobody teaches taking a company public to an intern. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 19:34
  • @Robert Harvey: But perhaps it is time to extend the platform with a teaching aspect? (Like it was extended with a chat facility.) Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:02
  • 13
    @PeterMortensen: Sure. Just don't pretend that the existing platform supports this in any way, shape or form, or expect that some small tweaks would get it done. it would take a major undertaking to do it right, and there's already been one failed attempt. Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 21:04
  • 17
    @Pchandrasekar [W]e do not believe that welcoming, teaching, and empowering new generations of beginners is mutually exclusive with building a quality archive. Won't these two goals inevitably conflict? A "quality archive" requires some minimum standard of quality, which means some contributions will be rejected; those contributors are liable to feel unwelcome. And the poor beginner now has to manage a double learning load -- both learning the new skill in question, and learning how to meet the standards of quality; the higher likelihood of failure is invariably not empowering. ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:27
  • 5
    ... Isn't the only possible resolution for this conflict, to make crystal clear this vision of a quality archive, to manage beginners' expectations?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 22:29
  • 16
    @Pchandrasekar If SO now seeks to teach "new generations of beginners," does that mean the site is no longer "for professional and enthusiast programmers?" And if so, what will the site be doing to be suitable for beginners, because as Atwood lays out, it's currently the opposite of that, and that extends to the core of the site's design rather than just community behavior. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 2:22
  • 4
    @Pchandrasekar the problem is, they ARE mutually exclusive if you are talking about a single resource. You can NOT have both in a single place. You CAN have both, in two separate places.
    – barbecue
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 19:30
  • 2
    @Script47 "the goal of this site was not to help new beginners": It is now. The exponential growth which is the business target clearly requires a focus on beginners. Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 21:11
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen Teaching (learning resource) requires structure. SO does not have any structure at all. Even Documentation lacked proper structure.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 8:29
  • 1
    As someone who tried to provide both beginner-friendly and intricate descriptions of inner workings on Documentation, I can very much attest to running into the lack of structure mentioned by @DalijaPrasnikar head-on. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 3:39
54

I have been a member of Stack Overflow since may 2012, almost 8 years now. I mainly use SO as a resource to find the answers what I need, when I need it. The pro of Stack Overflow is, that if you know what to search for, you can find your answer relatively quickly with some google fu, related questions, etc...

Over the years I've slowly been becoming invested in the community aspect, willing to help people, trying to help out here and there occasionally, and I've seen the community grow, change and adopt scary new things of controversy several times. So I'm not scared about change per se.

I am scared about the direction Stack Overflow the Company with shareholders is approaching its user base, its community and alienating the core of that community. With a tight-knit community where you have a few "big" names who take the lead consistently in adopting things, or fire other people on to take action and "do stuff", talking, arguing, investing in issues.

The drama of the last few months though, have sent massive shock waves through this tight-knit community and the weave has started to unravel. I can see this, as a lurker and occasional partaker on meta, I don't say much, but I read a lot of the ongoing discussions and concerns.

People, who have been taking the lead, taking pride in their moderation duties, their badges and their feeling of fighting the "horde" of spam, are ceasing their activities. Questions that would have been closed in seconds, now live on for hours sometimes, gathering bad answers, and muddling Google search results.

The value of SO is concise, to the point googleable questions and answers. Bad questions and bad answers muddle the results. Muddle makes more muddle, and it will decrease the value of SO, because Google does care about duplicate content, and will devalue results if this trend continues and new people don't step up.

My personal journey over the last months with the new front page, hiding the questions when going to the website directly, the new TOS, forced license change which is legally extremely questionable, firing of a community elected moderator and pillar of community Monica, the letting go of community managers which were role models and central to the community as a source of reason, the consequent no answering of community concern, or if there is an answer it's carefully worded lawyer speak, which is frankly insulting to me as a developer, I don't know how others feel.

I have gone from I want this to be a community I invest in and help make better, to this website only needs to give me answers; when it doesn't I'll go somewhere else. The last few months when I've encountered a problem that wasn't on Stack Overflow I have refrained from posting it here. I've stopped caring about contributing to Stack Overflow, the company with shareholders out to make money.

Until now people have been looking at Stack Overflow as this:

It's a company, of course it needs to make money, but we have faith that Stack Overflow realizes the value of its community, as that is the content-generating thing that drives people there and slowly, but surely, we will get features that makes everything better for us the community to help in this symbiotic relationship.

But the last few months, it seems that Stack Overflow wishes to reposition itself. To increase shareholder value and revenue. All fine and well, but we the community really do not care that much. As long as Stack Overflow makes a profit and keeps the site up, we are good, do your thing. Experiment with teams, documentation, etc... all you want. But the moment your shareholder value increasing strategy touched the community, you have hurt us deeply, tore deep wounds in us and we lost trust of the our symbiotic partner. You have removed pillars of the community by force. These are wounds. Deep wounds.

The sentiment of the remaining core of the community can be summarized in this GIF image:

I don't believe you

So, when you want to increase shareholder value, I applaud you. But do not believe Stack Overflow is a normal website. The people who use Stack Overflow build the web and the supporting infrastructure. Heck, the inventor of the next greatest programming language may be on here now. You don't want this to turn into Quora, Yahoo answers or god forbid Technet. You want this to remain the gem that it is, that pops up in every Google result as a highly valuable resource, that drives ad revenue, etc... Because... we can and will build your greatest competitor in a heartbeat if we as a community abandon ship. It's not like it's a hard website to build; we as a community just like it here.

Let in the bad quality, drive away the core community that bind the lurkers like me and that goes down the drain over the next few years, losing any relevance Stack Overflow had and it goes the way of Myspace.

You have a chance to rebuild your symbiotic relationship with the community, to stop the bleeding from the gashes, to heal the wounds but it takes time. Trust is hard to earn and easy to lose.

My suggestions to you

Please take a tablet, a nice cup of [insert favorite beverage here] and read the most answered/upvoted/downvoted questions on the global meta and the Stack Overflow meta. Start with those from the beginning of the sites, the oldest.

Read the discussions the members had, see the passion, the changes, the arguments, and the bitter arguments. Perhaps also of other sites, Area 51, etc... I don't know how much you wish to invest in this really.

Get to know the creature that is wounded, but essential to your survival in a symbiotic relationship. And then make a blog post about it, and reach out to us. Don't focus too much on shareholder value when you communicate to us, but acknowledge us, acknowledge our desires, our worries and provide us with a roadmap of what's going to happen to us as website communities. Do we get tools, new ways to approach things, etc...

Just look at what we, the community did for Stack Overflow, that made Stack Overflow the company possible. Don't hurt your symbiotic partner, or else rogue symbiots will come in, and that may work out, but if you look in nature, it usually doesn't end up good for the host. Do you feel lucky?

10
  • 26
    Because... we can and will build your greatest competitor in a heartbeat if we as a community abandon ship. Might be too late to stop that already. It's a question of who builds a workable acceptable alternative first. A lot of people are ready to jump ship. Projects are already in the works, too.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 9:23
  • 6
    @Magisch I know. I've seen the githubs slowly filling. One of the projects uses C#, which I personally don't fancy much. I've considered building my own alternative the last few months, with the option of importing answers from stack overflow and taking ownership with a key to be inserted in user profile so the questions can be decoupled from the CC-by-sa stack overflow attribution links and be put under new CC-by-sa [insert new site] attribution. This greatly decreases SEO value for SO, as google hates duplicate content. I haven't yet because I don't feel like managing yet another community. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 9:30
  • @Tschallacka There are already a number of (malicious) sites that mirror StackOverflow content, but Google definitely has a preference for the earlier results Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 22:55
  • What is "Technet"? Microsoft TechNet? Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 3:02
  • @forresthopkinsa actually, Google prefers newest most accurate results. Google measures how long people remain on site and sorts accordingly. Another disadvantage is that those sites have to abide by CC-BY-SA, linking back to SO, which decreases their ranking as well. But if you make a competitor, you can take the content, have the owners take ownership of it, and re license it back to the competitor, breaking any links to Stack Overflow. Then because that content will change and SO's content will grow stale, Google will prefer the competitor because people remain there longer. Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 6:49
  • @PeterMortensen yes Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 6:50
  • 1
    Mostly +1, but I think that you're actually contradicting yourself, in a way: you insist on the importance of community, and then say that building a competitor would be easy. That's true on technical level, but it's precisely the community that is difficult to build, and maintain.
    – Benjol
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 6:46
  • @Tschallacka it's a bit difficult to gather the message you are trying to transmit. Could you please make a TL/DR section?
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 12:25
  • 2
    @Zhigalin-ReinstateCMs TL;DR; We don't trust you, so don't be a typical CEO that comes in and leaves after two years. Invest in the culture, read up on the community and know what moves us. Then take that along in long term strategic positions. end TL;DR; On another note, this CEO hasn't held a position longer than 2 years, with longest continuous employment for 7 years at rack space with multiple positions. He has studied harvard, so with this track record, it's most likely he'll be gone within short time to pursue other opportunities to further his carreer. Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 12:31
  • 5
    Excellent post - captures my feelings exactly. Another thing the SO Inc appear to believe is that "out of x million users we have, the Meta community is negligible. So if they don't like or make ruckus or even a few thousand users leave, it doesn't really affect us". But in my view, that's both a dangerous as well as inaccurate. A lot of users like me don't exactly participate in Meta but read a lot and broadly happy that the Meta exists and functions well. So if Meta is ignored, it'd affect and alienate more users like me than the SO management believes.
    – P.P
    Commented Jan 25, 2020 at 20:53
52

Thank you for posting here.

You are just few months late... Better late than never... but under the circumstances it might be way too late.

Where do you see Stack Overflow going?

To be blunt... with current pace and accelerating - straight to hell...

Note: I will continue using you interchangeably to address both company and you as CEO and highest ranking person in the company responsible (even if you have to report to the investors you are now at the helm and you cannot evade responsibility for what is going on under your watch, whether you have personally participated in some events or not).

it is critical that we work closely with our community to listen, change, and evolve rapidly.

All of this is in pursuit of new and more productive ways to work with and listen to our community in the next era of the company.

We acknowledge these issues, apologize for our mistakes, and have plans for improving in the future.

You keep talking about working with community, building the community... but actions in past few months do exactly the opposite. How can we trust you when all you have done is burning one bridge after another until there are none left?

All we got is one apology after another, and that future where you will improve never comes...

How do you think you can improve and build community by firing the very most people that know how to work with community and to whom community have trusted the most.

I am sorry to say, but you have lost that trust for good. It will be very hard to rebuild it, if possible at all. Maybe with some new users...

But, let’s focus on where you want to go and what is the actual plan for SO and SE

The key to Stack Overflow’s future and growth are the millions of developers from around the world who find the site useful, but who haven’t yet been welcomed into the community. We need to expand our reach and engagement to ensure these developers join the conversation and push their own learning to new heights

I am not sure that you know how these sites work...

SO is the most useful when you don't need to ask questions at all. You don't even need an account to successfully use the sites. The last thing we need is more questions.

It has been repeated many times before, that quantity is detrimental to quality and quality was what attracted the experts and made this place successful in the first place.

This is a big mandate. So as we embark on the journey this coming year, I’ve asked everyone at Stack Overflow to maintain a growth mindset (through hard work, openness to feedback, and resilience), to always operate with our “why” at the center, and to conduct every meeting as if there is a community member and customer in the room.

Even if we forget that you have basically burned all trust with community and that quality wise we are already sitting in the mud for quite some time, you have never actually said what WHY represents. We no longer know, and all the actions in last few months (even years) indicate that original Why is lost.

Before we can embark anywhere, we need fewer words and empty phrases we cannot possibly trust (because actions contradict words).

We need exact blueprints of what you are trying to build. And we need them yesterday.

7
  • 12
    "You don't even need an account to successfully use the sites." - Visit stackoverflow.com when you aren't logged in. It takes a lot of effort to find the single link that leads you to questions.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:35
  • 18
    @Andy It wasn't like that few years back, before I joined. And even if having account makes it easier, the whole point is that asking questions is not needed. Most of the time, people that really have the need to ask question are the ones that ask rather poor questions. The whole "place for asking question" philosophy is kind of backward now... it should be "place where you can find answers (without asking)"
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:40
  • 3
    Sorry @DalijaPrasnikar, my comment wasn't meant as criticism to your post. It was meant to point out that if you visited stackoverflow.com, there is a very low likelihood that you're even realize you could get anywhere without an account.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:43
  • 3
    @Andy No worries... I keep forgetting that main landing page has changed a lot.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:45
  • 35
    I don't think the landing page is so much of an issue regarding this. I assume most questions are found through Google, thus completely bypassing the landing page.
    – luator
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 14:13
  • 1
    @Andy while it's a good point.... how many users go "stackoverflow.com", then do a search from there? Compared to people who Google "how to foo the bar"?
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 14:45
  • 2
    The fact remains that the very incompetent decision to change the front page was made & implemented early summer 2019. Why so many thoroughly incompetent decisions were made during 2019 specifically, I don't know, but whoever made them caused permanent damage to the site and company.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 12:14
50

What is the value of community?

You talk about the value of the community. Let's put a number on that. There are currently about 500 volunteer moderators across all SE sites. If we assume they each spend 10 hours a week on SE, how much would it cost to employ them? Let's take a conservative figure of $20/hr (I hope you pay your community managers a lot more than that, btw). That's $5.2m in unpaid moderator labour each year, or $52m over the decade SE/SO has been going. We could get a more accurate figure from @Shog9's "year in moderation" info, but of course you sacked them.

Personally I would also include all answers as unpaid labour too. Questioners get something tangible in exchange for their input; I don't think magic reputation beans count as fair exchange.

Last year there were 2.8m answers. Let's say each answer takes five minutes (some clearly take very much longer, but let's be conservative). Let's cost the volunteers at $20/hr as before, a seriously low rate for expert software developers but about right for astronomers or mathematicians ;). That gives us $4.7m per yr.

So let's say the value of the community is a minimum of $10m/yr, or $100m over the decade SE/SO has been running. You can halve that if you assume linear growth of course, but we're talking a ballpark figure here and I think activity has been relatively static or even falling for a good few years now (happy to be corrected on that).

My point is, in pure financial terms the community has put a similar amount in to the business in kind as the investors have in cash. What do the investors get? A 10x return on their money (they hope). What does the community get? Not even a seat at the table.

Some people, possibly most, think that's absolutely fine and dandy and just how modern internet businesses work. There's nothing wrong in making money off the labour of some poor schmuck who's willing to work for free, right? I'm the kind of actual communist who thinks it is morally wrong, but regardless of where you are on that particular spectrum, you have to admit that the community has given you a huge investment and if the last few months are anything to go by you (as in SE Inc, not necessarily @Pchandrasekar personally) do not seem to appreciate that or value it, or their opinions.

Which brings me on to another couple of numbers from your recent podcast. There are apparently 23m professional software developers in the world (which was news to me) and 46m SE/SO users (did I hear that right? There are only 12m registered on SO according to the site list). Either number would suggest a certain degree of market saturation. This means that you can't rely on user churn to supply future moderators/answerers. Simply put, there aren't many expert software developers out there who haven't heard of Stack Overflow. The number of those who have who are willing to work for you for free is relatively small and finite.

This means you should care about (power)user retention, and mod retention, much more than you seem to. There is not an infinite pool of experts and potential mods out there to draw on. It also means that wherever your 10x revenue growth is going to come from in the next year, it isn't going to come from SE/SO user growth. So if you really expect that 90% of your income at year end is going to be coming from elsewhere, why do you care about this community at all? Why not just ditch it altogether?

It's a serious question. If the Q/A sites are a valuable shop window for your broader business then you need to support the community and listen to them as if they'd invested $100m in the company. Because they have. On the other hand, if they're just a drag on your resources and you think your staff's time would be better spent on paying customers then why not cut the community loose or spin it off as a non-profit? You might make everyone happier.

PS I spent an hour on this. You owe me $20. And I mean you @Pchandrasekar personally.

5
  • 4
    May I plug my recent question Where's the new boatload of experts who can explain stuff to me like I'm five? here?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 12:54
  • SO made more than 80m in 2018, even more in 2019. The money you quoted was nothing for SO scale size. Also, if SO was paying the community, there'd be strict in performance measures, not just like now where everybody can do anything. There'd be much less people involved due to better quality. Your arguments simply make no sense.
    – SmallChess
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:05
  • 7
    @HelloWorld I wasn't trying to make an argument, just trying to roughly quantify the value of volunteer labour to SO. Was that 80m in profit or 80m in revenue in 2018? If the latter (I've read 70m revenue but don't have a reference to hand) then 1/8 of revenue would imply that volunteer labour is a pretty important contribution to the company's success. Would be very happy to see other estimates. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:24
  • 5
    @CodeCaster you may. Have an upvote from me. I find the quality of answers on the non-technical sites I (used to) frequent has declined markedly too. It's a vicious circle, and can happen pretty rapidly on some of the smaller sites where a small number of high rep users provide a lot of answers. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 13:31
  • Standing ovation.
    – Rounin
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 16:49
49

Within your blog post, you contained a couple of sentences that sounded condescending to me... in particular:

We want to serve all of the millions of people who use Stack Overflow, not just those who know the most about how the site has worked in the past

What do you think we've all being doing all this time?

We all want to serve the millions of people and it's really not a lot to ask that before we spend 5+ minutes of time helping someone that they have already done the same.


I want to believe you, I really do. But it's things like this and removing anyone that provided community insight that make this currently impossible.

So I think you need to be very clear on what you want this site to be: a place for any question or a knowledge base of questions.

0
45

In the blog you say:

All of this is in pursuit of new and more productive ways to work with and listen to our community in the next era of the company.

which read to me as that up till now working with Meta was less productive than you hoped for. I would like to learn what I did wrong that made it less productive. It is a bit of a waste of time and effort for both of us if how I engage causes friction and I'm more than happy to adapt to certain needs within my abilities.

13
  • 13
    You, personally? That seems a little specific :)
    – terdon
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:15
  • 17
    @terdon, Doesn't seem too specific to me. He can really only affect his own behavior.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:29
  • 3
    Don't you mean: "I would like to learn what "the community" (i.e. we) did wrong that made it less productive."? What makes you think that you (s) did something wrong?
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:42
  • 12
    @Mari-LouA no, not really. It is much easier to pin-point what I did wrong and coach me on that. Others will recognize my behavior and can decide if they want to follow the same advice. I don't think talking about "the community" is much useful, as there hardly is one, single "the community".
    – rene
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 17:51
  • 9
    Alternatively, I'd like to know what the moderators could have done differently in order to address the inevitable issues that come from having a textbox on the Internet to make Meta into a usable venue for feedback and discussion.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 23:50
  • 1
    Unsure if they're still answering but it'd be a damn shame if they ignored this one which is actually asking for pointers on how to be more productive.
    – Script47
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 18:14
  • @CodyGray I've been thinking about it a lot... I love meta. I think it's a great way to interact with the people using the platform in a more relaxed way... relaxed meaning... it's not about the subject of the site and the rules aren't quite as strict... but - and I think this was a lot of what George was saying - it also led to a bit of a relaxation in judging what was nice. But where do you draw the line between enforcing be nice and tone policing? This is difficult. People can say important things in rude ways... what should be done? Should they be edited? deleted? addressed?
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 14:49
  • I've seen a lot of things go ignored. Heck, as an avid MSE user, I've been ignored. Many of my FRs there have met with silence or defensive responses... and I happen to think that I'm pretty good at putting things constructively and openly and I do my best to help others do so, too. And, so that frustration grows. Your next post gets a bit more angry and a bit less constructive... you're still making good points but it's harder to read if the post is directed at you. Eventually, you may cross the line from making points to scoring points... and that's where it's gone too far.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 14:53
  • I want meta to be a useful and constructive place and I know that getting it back there is going to take reversing a lot of silence and instead communicate more about what's going on... and those steps are moving forward, slowly, granted... but the more we can be open and the more people can respond constructively, the faster things can change, I think. I'm going to have to work on not taking frustrations directed in my general vicinity so personally and... well, I'm probably going to respond more to people who can interact kindly. Hopefully that will help.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 15:01
  • So, I guess, @CodyGray , the answer to your question is - as a mod - think about what's being said on Meta. Is it there to forward the discussion and keep communication open or is it there to "score points".
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 15:06
  • I go for "score points" ... I see myself out ... ;)
    – rene
    Commented Jan 29, 2020 at 16:00
  • @Catija "Many of my FRs there have met with silence or defensive responses... and I happen to think that I'm pretty good at putting things constructively and openly..." If you have seen people get defensive even when you were constructive, that should lead you to conclude that not being constructive or friendly enough wasn't the source of the problem. Far more often, the problem is that a person is impassioned about an issue or simply isn't getting what they wanted. The latter is extremely common on SO because we moderate and can't be eliminated as long as we do.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 2:56
  • @Catija So we have to make a decision about what's more valuable: clearing out low quality content so people can more easily find the information they need, or making people happy and pleased when they post here? Those two are, in many ways, fundamentally incompatible. We can nibble at the edges to improve the balance a little, but we can't have them both. SO was built with the former priority.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 2:58
44

Perhaps it's just me, but I hate "marketing buzzword" comments. Unfortunately, I feel like that's what we're getting here - a lot of replies feel like generic "go away" style support desk replies rather than genuine engagement from a CEO who wants to listen to the community. Can we please get something more concrete than the below examples?

Along with data points mentioned in today's post, we also keep a close eye on question quality. The blog below was our most recent look at the topic, and we feel good about the direction things are heading

I read this as: "We've picked a dubious question quality metric and it makes us look great, so we're sticking with it."

and for a long time we have said that our mission is to "help developers write the script of the future."

Never heard it, and it just sounds like a meaningless marketing catch phrase.

As we push forward with The Loop, our moderator council, and our Tiger Team initiatives, I hope these efforts will prove useful to the community and productive in rebuilding a good working relationship

...what the actual... seriously? Is this a joke? Can we just call a spade a spade, or are we expecting a fractal lion council of Alderon to emerge from next month's blog post to engage with the community about developer toileting issues?

...anyway...

As for the main question:

where do you see the network going in the next five years

I honestly think that's entirely down to the actions of management. A lot of longtime SO users have felt really let down recently on a number of fronts - from "big" events such as the Monica situation and Shog's firing, to smaller annoyances such as removing featured moderator resignation posts and refusing to send out swag to 100k members.

If a turnaround in attitude can be demonstrated, I think you'll start to win people back over. If not, I suspect Stack Overflow will increasingly be a "homework dump" site of more and more poor quality questions, with fewer and fewer good Q&A.

3
  • 5
    Blog post by Joel Spolsky, 2016: Developers are Writing the Script for the Future. I am not sure if it goes longer back or is a play on something Marc Andreessen (of Netscape, 1994-2003) said ("Why software is eating the world" (2000-10)). Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:31
  • 5
    That "homework dump" problem could be a significant one. I've always thought I've perceived a correlation between the overall quality of the questions posted and the likelihood that more experienced and engaged users would stick around to answer them. Too much drivel and why keep coming back? (Or, as our Tour pages collectively assert: We're a little bit different from other sites. Here's how:)
    – J.R.
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 21:42
  • 2
    @J.R. I think you're correct - anecdotal, but I know a few people who couldn't be bothered to carry on posting for that reason. I pretty much only hang around in a few niche tags these days. I used to follow the Java tag and pick out a few interesting questions to answer when I had the time, but these days the few good questions there are tend to be lost in the noise. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 22:14
41

Success Factors for Stack Overflow

When I joined Stack Overflow in the fall of 2009, it was a site for experts and enthusiasts. World leading experts took time out of their day to answer questions, and provide feedback that proved invaluable to my professional development.

Back then, there were two groups of users:

  • experts, who liked to share their expertise
  • enthusiasts striving to become experts

Both groups shared the same set of values and goals, and each benefited from the interaction:

  • experts learned from other experts,
  • experts were thanked enthusiastically, could empathize with the people they helped
  • enthusiasts received invaluable guidance for the professional development

The high quality content left behind by these interactions attracted links from all over the internet, massively increasing stack overflow's google ranking and traffic.

This however attracted a new kind of user. After all, people googling programming problems are not necessarily enthusiastic, nor likely to be experts. These help vampires, as they were pejoratively called, did not interact with other users in a mutually beneficial way:

  • help vampires received the help they wanted,
  • experts were not thanked, flooded with boring questions, and started to doubt whether they were actually truly helping, or merely enabling the helplessness of others by providing quick fixes

Growing unhappy with these unsatisfying interactions, experts asked for the previous ethos of the site to be codified into rules, and used comments such as "what have you tried" to remind new users of those rules.

Alas, being frustrated by constant annoying interactions, they were not always very nice about it, which in turn alienated newly arriving enthusiasts and experts, which resented being subjected to a host of poorly communicated rules.

Seeing its growth throttled, the company attempted to fix this, first by gentle nudging ("summer of love"), then by increasingly desperate measures. The experts and long-term users resist this, because they fear that interaction quality will deteriorate even further, causing an exodus of experts, causing a drop in answer quality, a drop in google ranking, and stack overflow to go the way of yahoo answers. I think that is a real risk.

Speaking for myself, I used to be in awe at the competence displayed in the average stack overflow answer. Nowadays, I am usually embarrassed because most answers are so poor.

In summary, stack overflow derives its value from interactions between people of different levels of expertise. If these interactions are mutually beneficial, people will flock to your platform and grow your business - but if they are not, they will leave.

The platform must ensure that all users, the drive-by help seekers, the enthusiasts, and the experts, have a good experience on the platform. The core business and challenge of stack overflow is matching users that can have a mutually beneficial interaction, and structuring their interaction to maximize value created.

Ideas for better matching

So far, questions are matched based on tags and activity.

Have you considered splitting the brand to account for the specific needs of different user groups? This is not without precedent: splitting of "software engineering" from the "stack overflow" brand totally eliminated the tension surrounding "subjective questions". Might a dedicated brand for programmers in training alleviate the tension around "newbie questions"?

Have you considered asking for additional meta data to improve matching? For instance, experience level?

Have you considered using machine learning to predict who might be interested in a question? The wealth of voting data that you have might allow much better predictions that what you use now.

Ideas for beneficial interactions

Have you considered helping users to include all relevant information? On Github, issue templates are used by pretty much every project now. Perhaps question templates might serve a similar purpose on stack overflow? Perhaps even different templates for different tags?

Have you considered limiting the audience of downvoted questions? Either opt-in, or probabilistic in that downvoted questions are shown to fewer people in their question lists? That negative feedback is "piling up" on poor questions (as Sarah Chipps puts it) might be an artifact of "active" questions being shown to more users ...

Ideas for productive community relations

Do not shoot messengers. Do not delete dissent on meta. Do not suspend dissenting users. Do not fire dissenting moderators without due process. Do not lay off dissenting employees. Instead, listen to these people. They are your early warning system, and if you silence them, the problem may grow until it is wholly out of your ability to control.

Do not try to deceive your community. Do not manage the message - manage the content! The various attempts at whitewashing and deception we have seen lately have made us distrust pretty much all company communications (we are hoping you are different, but I guess we will see).

My outside perspective is that you have a severe people problem in community management. And no, it's not the people who have been let go.

8
  • 8
    I agree with almost all of this, except: how can the help vampires be satisfied? They have no interest in investing in the site -- learning the rules of how to properly ask and answer questions. Instead, they'll loudly complain on Twitter that the site is "unwelcoming".
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 2:25
  • 1
    @ZevSpitz: For instance by being shown an existing answer that matches their question.
    – meriton
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 2:34
  • 12
    I fear that the only way the help vampires can be appeased is if the matching question is almost word for word the same as the question which brought them here in the first place, which is statistically unlikely. Anything less, and they'll have to invest in reading and understanding the existing question, and attempting to apply its' answers to their problem; which I suspect they'll be unwilling to do.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 2:39
  • 2
    @meriton we do show them an existing answer that matches their question. We use the dupe system for that. But apparently that's not enough - we're still guilty of closing their perfectly good question (that's been asked countless times) and even daring to give them a "duplicate" that in no means answers their question (because they have a variable called foo but the dupe uses a variable called bar).
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 15:02
  • 2
    "downvoted questions are shown to fewer people in their question lists" in my experience downvoted questions are not that often "piled on". They tend to have lower views than similar questions that simply have a score of zero. Because that's what the voting system is for - negative score means it's not worth it, so fewer people check out the question. Some clearly low quality questions even have trouble getting enough close votes because not enough people bother checking out the question (and close vote). The "piling" tends to happen to really bad questions.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 15:05
  • I've upvoted quite a few of the answers I've read so far, but I clicked my mouse most emphatically on this one.
    – J.R.
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 22:22
  • 1
    Actually, I don't want the help vampires to be appeased. I want the experts to be happy. Because it's the experts that provide the value to everybody else who visits this site. If you cannot be bothered to invest a few minutes into phrasing a non-abysmal question/answer, you are simply not ready to contribute to a site where your content will be visible to experts world wide. And if you endeavor to join a community of experts, you must be able and willing to learn. I, for one, am very grateful to the people who downvoted my early answers and explained why they downvoted: That's how I learned! Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 22:55
  • There is a precedent for your proposal to create levels of expertise. ELU and ELL are sister sites, with one aimed at the sophisticated user, and one aimed at beginners and intermediate English learners. Commented Feb 3, 2020 at 8:25
41

Want a radical idea?

Transform Stack Exchange Inc. into a non-profit organization.

Nearly everything of value here, beyond the plumbing, was created by community volunteers. The more you try to squeeze that generosity in pursuit of profit, the more the trust of the community will erode, particularly when the quality of the community falls into conflict with the objectives of profit.

Stack Exchange Inc. is now almost the same size, in terms of employees, as the Wikimedia Foundation, and they survive quite comfortably as a non-profit.

SO Jobs, Teams, etc, can roll into a for-profit subsidiary if you want, but if the past 10 years, and especially the past year, have taught us anything it's that the community is much better at managing the Q&A than the company. Make a daring move.

24
  • Not to mention, it's also somewhat comical that I've heard that portions of this post are copied...
    – user12174150
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 13:52
  • 6
    A slight variation: let the unhappy invested veteran crowd go off build the high quality question SO they say they always wanted. You have them out of your hair & have a prestigious nonprofit that bears Stack Overflow's name meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390983/…
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 15:44
  • Whether or not Stack Exchange Inc is for-profit or non-profit has little to do with whether it's leadership listens. They Wikimedia Foundation has very similar problems in that it cares more about social justice goals then making the core users of Wikipedia happy. You have conflicts about Code of Conducts in both cases. The Wikimedia Foundation currently wants to push through a code of conduct against the wishes of the community as expressed by the Request for Comment votes.
    – Christian
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 15:46
  • @Christian It's not a trivial fix-all, I agree, but it would be a big step from the company in demonstrating good faith. We can debate codes of conduct, but at the moment I feel much of the discord between the company and community is centering around profit motives conflicting with the community's objectives for quality - something we've demonstrated the ability to deliver when unencumbered by overbearing corporate interference.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 15:54
  • @J... The issue of the ads was the only issue that was about profit motives and if it would be the only issue, the relationship betwee SE and the community would be a lot better. Monica was fired over a conflict about the Code of Conduct. Focusing on Welcomness has nothing to do with focusing on profit. It happens because it's the political correct thing to do. Question quality or something that tracks the amount of valuable answers would be a better KPI if the focus would actually be on profits.
    – Christian
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:05
  • 2
    @J... If the core goal would be to push a product for professional software companies, there would be no need to be welcoming to beginner hobbyist programmers but it would make more sense to focus on making professional software developers happy so that they want to support the company. SE largely engages in bad actions for the same non-profit reasons that make the WMF also engage in bad actions.
    – Christian
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:11
  • 1
    @Christian I disagree. Welcomeness drives memberships - it drives traffic. Traffic drives revenue. Sometimes we must be less welcoming to preserve quality - standards must be met. These are in conflict. It's not the only source of conflict, surely, and you're correct that WMF is not perfect either, but I think it still makes sense from a quality and long-term sustainability perspective to separate the community Q&A from the commercial interests of the rest of the Stack Exchange portfolio.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:18
  • @J... :Most traffic doesn't come from memberships but from people finding posts on Google. Getting users to write more content that ranks highly on Google would do more for traffic then getting more low level beginner questions that often aren't clear enough to be good Google hits. Traffic from professional software developers also happens to be much more important for revenue of SE then traffic from hobbyists. StackOverflow careers only monitizes professionals. Ads are targeted at professionals. The Teams/Enterprise products are for professionals.
    – Christian
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:33
  • 2
    @Christian And yet, here we are. The community of professionals that are the backbone of this stack are in flight. And it seems to correlate pretty strongly with VC injection up top.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:36
  • 1
    @Pekka I think I tend to agree with Dalija.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 16:43
  • 1
    Another option might be to run the whole thing as a new kind of giant multisig smart contract with reputation supplanted with deposit forfeiture, and participation as a decentralised paywall.
    – Frank
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 21:31
  • 3
    @Christian Also, the other main KPI that is being thrown around is new user signups - growing a userbase with raw numbers as the success metric. This makes sense if you're trying to build a userbase to farm all of that sweet, sweet personal data from them as a corporate asset, but it does nothing whatsoever to improve the quality of the site.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 23, 2020 at 22:23
  • 1
    This post gets it. When you're a neo-liberal fundamentalist every organisation looks like a more efficient or a less efficient monetary profit-generator. When it's less efficient (ie. it's not maximising its potential profit) then the solution is easy: saw off the dead wood and transform the less efficient profit-generator into a lean, mean profit maximiser. But this misses the point that back in the real world not every organisation is (or can be, or should be) a monetary profit-generator. [1/2]
    – Rounin
    Commented Jan 25, 2020 at 9:47
  • 2
    We can agree that every organisation might, ideally, generate some kind of value - but it need not be financial value. It might (whisper it) be knowledge value. It might also be the value that comes from the sense of being part of a community, from helping others, from mentoring; or from being helped, supported, mentored. There are many kinds of value, many kinds of capital. Financial value / financial capital is only one kind. Neo-liberals will tell you it is the only kind (or the only kind that matters). They are wrong. [2/2]
    – Rounin
    Commented Jan 25, 2020 at 9:48
  • Re "Nearly everything of value here, beyond the plumbing, was created by community volunteers.": No, there was also the design of how the site works (that is more than plumbing): The mashup of ideas from other failed and successful attempts, stirred into a very successful mix (voting, badges, separation of the actual content and meta content (author info), reputation points, scaled moderation by means of privileges, wiki-like features, competitive answering as a means of getting extremely quick answers, seeding of the community with 50,000+ highly engaged users from day one, etc.). Commented Jan 26, 2020 at 0:37
39

I'm a moderator (though I wouldn't describe myself as a long serving one) and a long time member of one of your smaller communities, I have a few specific questions.

The team’s mission is to improve our feedback loop and working relationship with our community.

.

The work we do would not be possible without the contributions of our incredible community. Across Stack Overflow, hundreds of thousands of users, supported by hundreds of moderators, helped to review questions, triage answers, propose new tags, and keep the discourse respectful and on topic.

On these points - as a MSE moderator on and off over the past year, I've noticed that engagement is often one way, more so than it has been.

There has been friction, and members of the moderator corps quitting over corporate decisions and what is often an inability to communicate policy effectively.

How do you plan to rehabilitate the loss of trust from the community that does much of the moderation and maintenance workload?

In relation

We learned that we needed much better channels to listen to our moderators and community members. We have not evolved the existing channels of engagement for power users in our community, like Meta, or articulated how we intended to make improvements going forward. This has caused friction as our user base and business have rapidly grown. We acknowledge these issues, apologize for our mistakes, and have plans for improving in the future.

While the community manager team has been the lead there, they've been increasingly unable to actually engage with us. There have been complaints of overwork for years.

From Jon's Blog

Sometimes perspective changes rapidly. In September and October, a series of events demonstrated that leadership within the company neither understood community management nor was willing to learn. In retrospect, that’s likely been the case for years, but the community team has traditionally been given discretion when it comes to community relations. The double-edged sword of attention meant more resources have been going to community-related projects, but also leadership has asserted more control. Unfortunately, their decisions repeatedly violated my standards for healthy community management. By November I was actively looking for a new job.

If management is unable to listen to those within the company - how are they going to listen to folks without?

We've needed more community managers for years as the community grew. Yet this is a team that keeps shrinking. It is a request that has been repeatedly been made. We keep getting fed lines about "improving their work process" instead.

The result of this was us losing 2 experienced staff members - apparently unexpectedly, and a third quitting. All of them were highly respected, experienced and key to building and nurturing the community so far. We've heard nothing from Robert, and apparently the conditions for Shog's severance were bad enough that the community has a gofundme for him

Are there plans, as in the past to assist the employees who were let go ? It seems the right thing and hearing from folks that "the company helped us" means a lot, especially from someone who helped grow the community from the early days.

As we look forward to 2020, we plan to invest in public Q&A

The most important investment you can make is in the CM team that's been Thanosed last week.

We are also forming a moderator council, which will include a group of users with diverse experience levels and backgrounds who can help guide our processes. We’re making hard choices and treating no assumptions as sacred in considering ways to evolve the community.

I trust and respect the remaining CMs for most part. I'd even say they're the only reason I'm still here. Not the directors or veeps or C level people making decisions

I can say less so of some other staff. I will say this. It will be difficult for many mods to trust in the process as things have gone. We're unpaid volunteers, and our only ties are with our communities, and people. Considering that over the past half decade, the community team has been systematically downsized - it gets harder. They have always tried their best to do right by the community. They are our interface with the company and damned good ones. If you want to bring value to, and show the community they are valued, value them. Every single one of them, past and present probably understands us. This has been lacking over the years, and it pains me to see them get treated as "a cost center" to be cut back.

I think you see a trend here. We need strong, robust community support to thrive and keep the things that made the network great.

While hanging out on Root Access and other chats like Jeff used to is probably asking a little too much, I'd like to share something Jeff wrote about his next project after SE

Leadership comes from the top. The presence of staff speaks volumes about whether your community is alive and thriving. Don’t just say you believe in this community, demonstrate that through your personal participation and enthusiasm. Lead by example. Reply to questions people have, help your community learn the ropes, gently guide and shape the community as you go.

That has been distinctly lacking.

I’ve asked everyone at Stack Overflow to maintain a growth mindset (through hard work, openness to feedback, and resilience), to always operate with our “why” at the center, and to conduct every meeting as if there is a community member and customer in the room.

We're here. Lots of us are disappointed, angry and confused.

While not on the blog, there's a bit of uncertainty over the future of the Network.

In my role as a moderator of Super User - and on behalf of the other 2/3 of the original trilogy, as well as smaller sites - we're uncertain over the direction the network is taking. Lots of folks are worried that smaller sites will be shut down or merged into SO.

What does closer integration mean? SU and SF have their own cultures, and scope, and frankly if we're rolled into SO, we'd lose a significant part of our utility and distinctiveness. I'd also like to know so I can plan a graceful exit, and not wake up one morning and find a blog post saying its now "Superuser.Stackoverflow.com" and accessible over the left side bar (and that the mod of one of the earliest sites is saying this is how little trust I have)

Considering that one of the complaints of SO is "its too busy and not newbie friendly" - how do these plans tackle that?

I don't think our communities were consulted over this either. It would be nice to have some clear direction on where we're heading.

6
  • 2
    Re "...smaller sites...": Not referring to the second-largest? Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:45
  • 1
    Oh - SU, SU + SF and everyone else in that order. SU is my main site. SF was my second site for years and I still have a soft spot for it. I'm pretty sure sites like pets and IPS need love too, but they are certainly not going to be a natural fit for getting merged into or even cross pollinating with SO Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:46
  • And frankly at this point- I didn't even think about the fact that we were the second biggest site.And I certainly don't think that's something that I wanted in the post proper. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 0:55
  • 6
    That has been distinctly lacking. Not distinctly lacking. Deliberately lacking. They're throwing their mouthpieces under the bus to take the flak.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 17:15
  • 2
    Hey @JourneymanGeek - one thing I learned during my first 90 days as I gathered feedback from a broad range of customers and community members, was that many of them knew of Stack Overflow, but had never heard of the many amazing communities we have inside Stack Exchange. There are ways to make the knowledge sharing on SE more discoverable to folks on SO, and to encourage cross-pollination between sites like DevOps, Software Engineering, Information Security, and many others. So we intend to work on some ideas around that.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 21:15
  • 2
    I understand this may cause concern from moderators of Stack Exchanges about how their roles will change. Right now the goal is to test this hypothesis in the spirit of improving the community user experience. As we move forward with exploring how it might work, we will be seeking input from our community and sharing our thoughts with you.
    – Prashanth Chandrasekar StaffMod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 21:15
39

To be overly indulgent, I have a second question. Will Stack Overflow remain a site for "professional and enthusiast programmers?" (text that still appears on the official tour page), which Jeff Atwood defined as "people who either already have a job as a programmer, or could potentially be hired as a programmer today if they wanted to be." I ask this because of ongoing debate about the future of the site and this paragraph in your blog post:

It is critically important that we evolve our platform, community infrastructure, and culture to be more useful to our community so we continue to be a core part of a developer’s workflow. Of the ~90,000 respondents to our 2019 Stack Overflow Developer survey, 80% tagged themselves as hobbyist programmers, 60% wrote their first line of code before the age of 17, and only 10% were women. Statistics like these have significant implications on how we think about making our community more welcoming, engaging, and inclusive. The key to Stack Overflow’s future and growth are the millions of developers from around the world who find the site useful, but who haven’t yet been welcomed into the community. We need to expand our reach and engagement to ensure these developers join the conversation and push their own learning to new heights.

And your comment here:

Respectfully, we do not believe that welcoming, teaching, and empowering new generations of beginners is mutually exclusive with building a quality archive.

If the goal is to expand by attracting more "professional and enthusiast programmers," especially and including developers (and other types of technical workers certainly) who don't also consider themselves hobbyists, learned as adults, and come from diverse backgrounds, that's fantastic; the community will benefit enormously from having them here, and we need to address the barriers keeping them away. But given the enormous focus on growth and metrics throughout your blog post, there's reason for concern that the goal may be to expand by seeking more and more "reach and engagement" from the millions of people who are interested, but not professional and enthusiast programmers, the "new generations of beginners" you speak of, which is something the community has expressed many concerns about.

And I don't want that to amount to gatekeeping. The millions of people who are interested but not professional and enthusiast programmers (and practitioners of other technical fields) need quality tools and resources to learn and become professionals (or have the knowledge that they could be). For all the reasons Atwood lays out, Stack Overflow has been designed as "pretty much everything you would not want as a student or beginner." So if the goal is to "expand reach" by continuing to attract and teach "new generations of beginners," what will SO be doing to provide resources that specifically cater to their needs? And if the goal is to "expand reach" just among professionals and enthusiasts, what mechanisms will be used to specifically target that group of new users?

7
  • 6
    Let's.... make a forum for them.... because that'll work out great Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 8:54
  • 4
    There are any number of ways to provide resources that are designed for "new generations of beginners," or to partner with other places that already do that, if SO is now explicitly targeting that group of users. It's not fair to beginners, or to the professional and enthusiast community that's already here, to attract them to a site that's explicitly designed not to cater to their needs. Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 22:48
  • I think that it's lived practice for a while now that SO is for everyone interested in programming. This doesn't give necessarily good experiences for all, but that's what it is. For example the "requires minimal understanding" close reason is gone for a long time, but then it was also abused. There is no clear boundary between enthusiasts and everyone. Commented Jan 25, 2020 at 8:37
  • @Tschallacka: it may not be such a bad idea to do that, as long as that is a separate entity to Stack Overflow. "Beginner Programmers" would have a different set of on-topic rules, and they would be much looser than SO. I think some experts would be willing to go there, and try to help, especially if it protects the quality levels on the main site. It may be a disaster, as you imply, but at least it would demonstrate to the company what happens when you have a free-for-all.
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 20:01
  • @halfer nobody in their right mind will start a voluntary dumpster fire... Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 21:38
  • 1
    @Tschallacka: heh! While I agree that it is not likely to create quality content, I don't mind helping beginners in traditional discussion rooms like Reddit. They're trying to solve a different problem to SO, and that's OK.
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 21:40
  • 1
    (The great thing about dumpster fires is that they are safely contained ;-)).
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 21:41

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .