148

This question about why libCurl is free has been closed 3 times and removed from the Hot Network Questions by a moderator. It seems to be opinion based:

What is the incentive for curl to release the library for free?

The developer himself answered, and his answer is really, really good (+500 in one day is quite a feat). Heck, I myself owe him, because I use libCurl myself. That alone, however, doesn't make this a good fit for SO.

Should we allow this type of Q&A on Stack Overflow? Should we just historical lock the question for posterity?

Note - This is not about asking why a programming language does something a certain way. This largely revolves around what to do with this specific question and a much narrower instance of someone posting an off-topic question and getting a very serious answer from the source.

46
  • 50
    "Should we just historical lock the question for posterity?" Sounds fair. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 17:39
  • 72
    It is not "primarily opinion-based". There are admittedly a very limited number of people who know the answer to the question, but that doesn't make it opinion-based. It has an objective answer, one which was provided. I've been debating about what to do with that question, but closing it as "primarily opinion-based" was never one of my considered actions. If it is to be closed as anything, that would be "off topic", because it's about aspects of the broader software engineering trade that Stack Overflow does not handle (i.e., licensing, the business of open source, etc.).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 17:48
  • 18
    Historical lock presumes that the question was asked in historical times when the question would have been on topic, but now is not. This was asked very recently. Seems like using it for the libCurl question would signal that it's okay to ask these kinds of questions even if they are off topic, as long as someone answers with a highly upvoted answer... Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 17:51
  • 39
    @CodyGray: It is opinion-based. The question is asking for the opinion of a software developer, and the answer is the opinion of a software developer. There is nothing in that question that is not about opinions. Any question asking for the motivation of a person is opinion-based. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 17:58
  • 14
    delete it and forget about it. The answer isn't really good, it was just shared strategically and found to be interesting (similar to my own answer to (a == 1 && a == 2 && a == 3)). In this case it isn't on topic.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 17:59
  • 27
    @CodyGray I don't believe the libCurl question is anything but fool's gold, upvoted only because curl is very popular in the programming community, and people wanted to reward the author for that contribution, not necessarily for the Stack Overflow answer as a stunning exemplar. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 18:02
  • 17
    With that logic, @Chris, pretty much every question here is asking for the opinion of a software developer. "How do I create a tuple in C++?" ==> "How did the creator of the tuple facility in C++ decide that this feature should be implemented?" The point of the "primarily opinion-based" close reason is to discourage questions that would attract a slew of low-quality answers, like "What is the best Java IDE?". It specifically says in the description that many questions involve a degree of opinion; the operative word there is "primarily".
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 18:03
  • 27
    @CodyGray: I don't agree with your equivalence there. When asking how to do something in C++, we're not asking how Stroustrup envisioned it or why he designed it that way, we're asking how to solve a problem. This question does not do that. It explicitly asks about the motivation for one person's past action. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 18:08
  • 13
    @CodyGary I both agree and disagree with you at the same time. You've hit the nail on the head with this question prescribing to the "broader software engineering trade", but I think your reluctance to call this opinion based isn't quite right. He's specifically asking for the "incentive for curl to be free". Asking for an incentive is always going to be opinion based. I believe it is just rare that in this ONE specific case, the creator actually answered. 99% of questions like this would have extremely low quality answers. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 18:12
  • 11
    The answer makes internet a better place, that should be enough for anyone on SO to look the other way, deleting has no sense @KevinB Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 18:49
  • 29
    How exactly does it make the internet a better place? I won't deny that it's popular... but that hardly improves the internet. It will simply be used as justification for others to ask similarly awful questions.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 18:51
  • 11
    What i have a problem with is it being a historical lock, for a question that is so recent. Not because "history" implies old, but because it implies that questions like this can be asked and answered and highly rewarded, if they're shared with the right crowd, regardless of whether or not they are on topic here and then be immune to removal.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:07
  • 14
    @PetterFriberg It isn't useful information that a developer 2 years from now will look back on and say "Hey, that solved my problem!" it's simply trivia, better left for sites like medium, reddit, or blogs. I'm not going to debate with you about MCVE and debug this for me garbage, as I believe we mostly align there.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:29
  • 20
    Admittedly, i'm of the opinion that anything that is closeworthy (other than duplicates) should eventually be deleted. This one in particular will never be automatically deleted because members of the community have sent the signal that it is useful/high quality content. Unfortunately... they used the upvote button incorrectly and we're left cleaning up the mess.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:42
  • 9
    @KevinB As an open source author (not as an employee or mod), I wanted to address: "It isn't useful information that a developer 2 years from now will look back on..." ...yes, it is. As someone who makes licensing decisions (many of which are specific to software) and having to weigh the same things, this post definitely helps resolve things. I'm not saying it's on or off-topic, I'm just saying: yes, it is useful, and helps in software development. There is value in it.
    – Nick Craver Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:22

8 Answers 8

31

I have undeleted What is the incentive for curl to release the library for free? The main reason I undeleted it is that the initial author of curl and libcurl answered the question. It seems to me that at the very least, this is an artifact that Stack Overflow can host for historical purposes. Deleting it seems to serve no purpose other than denying the asker a few hundred points in reputation.

I also think the question ought to be unlocked so that both the question and its answer can be voted upon. I obviously have the ability to do this unilaterally as a community manager, but I'd much rather this be something the community decides. (This is another reason to undelete the question, by the way. In the deleted state only a limited number of users can evaluate the content.) One of the reasons Stack Overflow works so very well is that it implements a token economy that rewards behavior the community approves of. At the time of lock, the question had 123 upvotes to 26 down. The answer had +518/-2. We don't tend to look at this a much as I think we should, but 18 people clicked the upvote arrow while anonymous or not having sufficient reputation to vote. Nobody in that situation clicked the downvote arrow. That indicates that most people who saw the question and nearly everyone who read the answer appreciated the content.

This was overwhelmingly good content by our simple question grade until it was closed. As far as I can tell, the close voters acted because the question is not so much about programming as it is about software licensing. But the reason they chose is that it is "primarily opinion-based", which does not seem to be true. Like questions about why language designers made certain choices, the question can be answered by the person who made the decision or by other evidence they left behind. In this case, the person who knew definitely actually answered the question. This is not a matter of opinion, but of historical fact.

We get an extraordinary volume of bad questions on this site. I don't mean bad in the sense they should be closed, but bad in that they are incomprehensible and unanswerable. It's frustrating for all involved. Closing this question helps that problem not at all. Instead it signals to a portion of the 34,348 people who have viewed the question so far that Stack Overflow does not value interesting content. This is fodder for yet more articles about how insular Stack Overflow is without discouraging questions asking for code and other such nuisances even a little.

Jeff once said:

Incoming questions are a universal constant, all around us in countless billions. But answers — truly brilliant, amazing, correct answers — are as rare as pearls. Thus, questions are merely the sand that produces the pearl. If we have learned anything in the last three years, it is that you optimize for pearls, not sand.

I don't think there is any doubt that the answer under consideration is a pearl. At least I've seen no argument there. If you were given a pearl as a gift, would you throw it out because it was built on the wrong type of sand?

89
  • 28
    There are quite a few mentions of "this answer is not stellar" on this page, which suggests that a lot of people don't agree that it's a pearl. Then again I don't know why there were only two downvotes on the answer. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:15
  • 21
    I also agree with undeletion. The answer is valuable, even if the question is not. The catch on unlocking it is that we had a tug-of-war in closure and reopening (which would have led to community delete votes out of frustration). If there's a lock that permits voting while discouraging other questions like it and preventing a close/reopen/delete war I'm all for that.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:17
  • 45
    So, it will be OK to post programmer jokes if they are good and get many upvotes?
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:25
  • 42
    @JonEricson With all due respect, what you just did here: '@AndrasDeak: 518 people who upvoted the answer on main disagree.' is a false-equivalence. You are equating people voting because they liked the answer with people voting about whether the answer is on-topic/quality. Two very different things.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:31
  • 37
    I believe equating votes with quality (or topicality) so strongly is a disservice to the site. We all know well that there are many, many cases where those two do not align. IMO is great we have other tools that do not depend on votes directly to moderate and curate the site. Abiding to popularity can easily lead to the wrong results.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:31
  • 25
    @AndrasDeak the community team thinks it should be on the site, meaning it's good for the site. It's opening a whole new can of worms. So now we need to subjectively work out what's on topic. Heck, anything can be on topic and good for the site now.. Oh not programming jokes, we will have to wait and see what's on topic, as I no longer know.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:34
  • 28
    Are we setting a precedent to go back and undelete all those extremely popular questions which collated a massive list of popular books for different languages? If memory serves they had been locked but eventually deleted and they were "more" on-topic than this question.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:36
  • 65
    This makes me very sad. Question is off topic, and the answer has no technical value whatsoever. Also it was asked two days ago, there is no historical value to be preserved. We are constantly telling people that rules apply equally to all. Now you are saying that they don't. And every effort people put into moderating seems meaningless,,, if you want swamp, you'll eventually have it. I am done fighting the windmills here.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:46
  • 43
    We have decided to bow to the pressure of the masses when it comes to how we curate content. I find this unacceptable. If the community team actually likes this kind of signal, then I have no way to actually moderate or curate it based on the established precedents we've had for years.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 13:07
  • 34
    Going forward, what do you really want me to do with questions like this? I have no idea what to do anymore. My ability to actually discern topicality and usefulness are thrown out the window.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 13:07
  • 21
    @JonEricson - I suppose the biggest thing I'm taking umbrage with is that the consensus is that the answer is a "pearl". On Meta, we're obligated to do a deeper dive into the actual content as opposed to the signal of upvotes (since we know that a mass of people can upvote a bad question or bad answer; it just happens in a less public showing). It feels like we're throwing away the advice and experience of Stack Overflow users for the sake of signal.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 13:12
  • 23
    @JonEricson No, he doesn't need to expand why it's worthy of deletion, the question is clearly off topic.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 13:19
  • 29
    @JonEricson Did you genuinely just link to a post, written by you, in which your accepted answer explicitly points to another answer which says "consensus is reached when 80-90% of the community agrees on an issue, and one staff member unilaterally decides that all those people are all wrong. Or in more simple terms: Consensus doesn't matter around here." - Honestly I find that extremely disappointing, and here it certainly appears to be the case. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 13:23
  • 28
    @PetterFriberg But there is no technical value in this answer. Nothing of practical value. Zero, zilch, none... there is no value to preserve. Every author of every open source library could post something similar.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 13:39
  • 18
    Now, the content is on the author blog. Should SO maintain a resource if it's available in a better form elsewhere?
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 14:44
92

Allow me to suggest an alternate interpretation of this question. We already allow questions that inquire on the motivations for language features. So extending that to library features is hardly unreasonable.

However, that's not really what this question is asking, is it? It's asking about the motivation for a library's license. That is essentially asking about a delivery mechanism for the library.

I submit that this question is off-topic for Stack Overflow, on the grounds that it is not really about programming. It's about the reasoning behind the license for a product. And while such questions can be highly useful to programmers, that doesn't make them appropriate for Stack Overflow.

9
  • 32
    curl is open source, so if we're going to approach it as a licensing question then the Open Source exchange might be another candidate as it explicitly allows licensing questions.
    – Rakuen42
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:08
  • Minor nit: "for free" does not always presume "licensed". It could be the case that the software is released devoid of any license, so I'm not sure I agree with the angle of this being a licensing question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:28
  • 7
    I bet it's off-topic on every SE site as on SO, I can't really see how you solve the problem, just leave it closed on SO and let those who enjoy the answer, enjoy Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:06
  • @Makoto Could be, but in this case it isn't. The license for curl is at curl.haxx.se/docs/copyright.html. It says the license is "inspired by MIT/X, but not identical."
    – Barmar
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 0:30
  • 4
    @Makoto If software is released without license, it isn't free and you aren't able to use it (or at least, it would be a legal minefield, because without a license, you don't have the right to use the work produced by someone else). Even just saying "feel free to use it" is a license... Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 9:08
  • 2
    So, it is a question about software licensing, which is off topic.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:35
  • 11
    Software Engineering no longer handles licensing questions. These should be directed to either Law or Open Source.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 17:11
  • 1
    Since when do we allow questions asking about motivations for language features? Those are equally opinion based.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 9:41
  • 1
    @jpmc26: Since... always? Some of them get closed when they're too opinionated, but we allow quite a few of them when they're reasonably focused and potentially answerable. We get questions like these with some regularity in the C++ tag. Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:27
66

The question is off topic.

The answer is now available on the author's blog.

It's great to have the creator of the project on the site, but it's still not the place to tell everyone about it. A blog is better with a link in the profile. It puts a message there that it's ok to post these types of questions. Does this mean we can ask questions about every library, programming resource and it's creation?

Upvotes don't justify keeping it on the site.

I've deleted the post.

The post has since been undeleted and the undeletion is addressed here. I still think it's off topic for the site and defending it to stay on the site is confusing.

24
  • 4
    Not to open another can of worms but when should we lock as opposed to outright delete? From what I could pickup, historical locks are used on content which fit a certain criteria (off-topic, popular, and close/reopen loop) so my question is, why not just delete all historical posts? Where do we draw the line?
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 22:30
  • 7
    @Script47 the lock was designed in a way meant for "useful information that isn't available elsewhere and we would not like to lose" (paraphrasing Tim Post). Once information is available elsewhere (or the content is so obsolete that the usefulness is suspect), it can be deleted. Like this example
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 22:33
  • 5
    @Braiam It can also be considered not useful for reasons other than being obsolete. Makoto's answer breaks down in more detail why the information in the answer just isn't all that useful
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 22:38
  • 6
    @Script47 let's face it, the answer had little value in terms of programming.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 22:58
  • 2
    @Servy yep I didn't go into repetitive detail, just wanted to post that I'd deleted it so objections could be raised here.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 22:59
  • 3
    Sad. I looked forward to reaading the post. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 2:12
  • 54
    @YvetteColomb: "I've deleted the post." Wait, what? The whole point of this topic was to bring a matter of contention to the awareness of the community so that they could make a decision on the matter. One would ordinarily think that this would require more than, I don't know, five hours of discussion to be reached. You're a community moderator: that means you enforce the rules as the community dictates. If the community is divided (as seems clear in this case), then you're supposed to wait until we've reached a decision. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 2:41
  • 23
    Years ago, we had a huge, week-long argument about when to delete what that eventually led to the "Historical Lock" policy. The moderators didn't just decide to cut off the discussion; they allowed the debate to actually happen and play out for some time. And while this is in fact just one question, one might think it's worth letting things lie in lockdown for a bit longer than 5 hours before making a decision for us. I don't feel that this deciding for the community when the community is somewhat ambivalent about an issue is appropriate for elected moderators. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 2:44
  • 19
    @NicolBolas: To play Devil's Advocate - what is really left to discuss? No one was disagreeing with the fact that the question was off-topic. The last thing to really decide was if the question fit within the criteria for preservation for a historical post. There's not a lot of posts which suggest it's worth it or teaches anyone much of anything, so...why belabor the point?
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 3:10
  • 4
    @historystamp If you want to read the Daniel's answer you can read it here on his blog Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 3:33
  • 13
    Thank you, thank you, thank you... at least one of the mods had the guts to do the right thing. Not saying that taking time to think is necessarily bad, but in cases like this any reluctance to act fast according to established rules sends confusing signals to the community.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 7:43
  • 12
    @DalijaPrasnikar thank you! Honestly it was so off topic for the site, I don't understand why people want to hang onto it. The OP can add a link to the blog in their SO profile. I've copped heat over it. It's like sometimes the site loses perspective over some things.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 8:07
  • 7
    @YvetteColomb doing the right thing again. Thank $diety for her as a moderator!
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:56
  • 6
    I guess consensus only rules when it is in the direction convenient to SE.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2019 at 16:13
  • 2
    I agree with this answer, but want to suggest that maybe next time the timing could be a bit more relaxed. Commented May 2, 2019 at 11:09
36

Well this looks like a curious case. Admittedly, lightning doesn't strike very often - that is to say, either a lead developer or architect on a language or library doesn't normally post answers - but it happens, from time to time.

That shouldn't overshadow what duty we have here. Irrespective of whether or not the original maintainer/author/architect responded to a question, we still have to ask ourselves if the question is worth keeping around in the first place.

Let's look at the actual question being posed.

I've been wondering: what is the incentive for the curl creators to release the entire library for free?

Is it purely to help their fellow developers?

At best, the question is largely subjective. The motives of someone developing a piece of software for others to use is not our concern, and should not be within any technical scope we employ here.

Let's take a look at the answer provided - specifically, does it actually answer the question?

...Kinda.

Now, why do I and my fellow curl developers still continue to develop curl and give it away for free to the world?

[...]

  1. I think it's still the right thing to do. I'm proud of what we've accomplished and I truly want to make the world a better place and I think curl does its little part in this.

The rest of that answer is really just conversational. They're admittedly gushing with pride over what they've done (and they have absolutely every right to be since I can't imagine a world without curl), but the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty low here.

We have standards for historical locks. The criteria for locking are as follows:

  1. The post does not meet the current guidelines for a good, on-topic question, and
  2. The post is stellar, in spite of its off-topic nature, and
  3. There are a large number of views, upvotes and inbound links on the post, and
  4. The post is contentious; e.g., it has been closed and reopened at least once, or deleted and undeleted at least once.

I would strongly, strongly argue that the post is not stellar, so it shouldn't be historically locked.

Specifically, the minimal guidance of the 3rd rule in "We Hate Fun Here" would be:

Does this question teach me anything that could make me better at my job? Can I learn something from it?

Thinking that something is the right thing to do isn't exactly what I'd call making someone better at their job. It isn't the case that the post imparts any explicit or tacit wisdom at creating open source projects, nor does it truly articulate or describe the perils of getting into open-source projects (the fact that one's time is not free is not exclusive to open-source projects and isn't a hidden fact elsewhere).

I'm glad to see that the original creator did respond but I can't justify keeping the question around, personally.

17
  • 11
    So just delete it? and continue to fill SO with "Can you peeps debug this?" Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:17
  • 8
    @PetterFriberg: That's cool; you don't have to answer debugging questions. But at some point we're going to have to stop and ask ourselves what kinds of questions we're really trying to answer. If questions like this suit your fancy instead, you should propose a new exchange site for them.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:29
  • 36
    @PetterFriberg: "So just delete it? and continue to fill SO with "Can you peeps debug this?"" I don't know what the one has to do with the other. You seem to be trying to conflate two entirely distinct issues. Do you think this question not being closed will in any way affect the quantity of "Can you peeps debug this?" questions? Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:33
  • 1
    Do note I never stated it should not be closed, I just can't understand your frenzy to delete it, you are starting at the wrong place cc @NicolBolas Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:39
  • 3
    We already have standards and guidelines for 99% of the stuff we see on the exchanges already. We should be prepared to apply the same standards we've been championing as hallmarks of good questions into every question that comes our way. It's the case that exceptions happen; I'm merely arguing that this isn't one of those cases.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:40
  • 6
    I don't altogether disagree. My feelings on this are quite mixed, which is why I didn't take unilateral mod action last night when it first came to my attention. The only thing I feel strongly about is that it is not "POB". I do agree that it is off-topic, but more for the reasons Nicol Bolas presents in his answer. I have also been very hesitant to delete it (or allow it to be deleted), because I view that as throwing away value. But...you (and others) make a good point that, despite the votes, the answer isn't actually all that useful or enlightening, so I'm starting to reconsider.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:43
  • @Makoto sorry for my first comment but it just seems useless to delete it, what is the actual purpose of this considering all the other **** we keep. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:50
  • @PetterFriberg: I can at least appreciate your frustration, but that doesn't change the fact that we're objectively looking at this specific question and trying to justify if it's something we should keep around on the site. Beyond that, you're likely going to have to take your frustration on the kinds/quality of questions we get here to a different Meta post.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:55
  • Just close and lock it (no need even for historical lock) then we carry on to next Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:00
  • 3
    If only it were that easy @PetterFriberg...we now have a situation where a question has very high signal (e.g. votes/views) and is of low quality. Our automated tooling to remove questions which are of low quality won't apply here since this question and its answers make those tools entirely moot. This is definitely something exceptional that needs to be dealt with. It'll never be deleted automatically, and locking it now just to delete it years down the road would only be worse. If it's not worth keeping, it's not immune from deletion.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:05
  • It is worth keeping, people enjoy the insights, it may inspire more to develop open-source, it may encourage lead developer of curl to answer "on-topic" questions, no need to ever delete we need to focus on much bigger problems Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:15
  • 3
    @PetterFriberg: Not sure if you noticed, but Daniel Stenberg has 33K+ reputation. He's well-incentivized to answer on-topic questions (and has been doing so fairly consistently). The rest of your points aren't as concrete; developing "open-source" software isn't the same as maintaining or actually living in the "open-source" frame-of-mind. Lastly, all of the "bigger" problems are problems that would require developer time, and we can't get our calendars to sync up.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:19
  • 12
    I agree with this answer. That answer is a blog post. Stack Overflow is not a blog. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:11
  • 10
    I must confess @SteveBennett, I am in no mood to participate in the vocabulary triathlon. Everyone's motivations for writing and/or releasing software for free are different, which by definition implies there is no definite answer. If such documentation existed before the question was posted, it wouldn't have prompted the question in the first place.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2019 at 3:53
  • 1
    Everyone's motivations might be different, but the question specifically asked about the motivations of a very small group of people. A question for which the answer is not knowable is not the same as a subjective question. Commented May 1, 2019 at 4:36
22

Should we allow this type of Q&A on Stack Overflow?

As a rule? No.

As an exception? Sure.

The questioner specifically asks:

what is the incentive for the curl creators to release the entire library for free?

which is enquiring regarding the motives of why the developers released it for free and that is the definition of primarily opinion-based and I'm sure normally it would've been down-voted to oblivion.

Should we just historical lock the question for posterity?

Absolutely, that's what it was created for as per What is a historical lock, and what is it used for?:

A historical lock is a mechanism by which moderators can mark posts as historical artifacts. Questions which are historically locked feature the following post notice:

A historical lock preserves content that was very popular when it was originally posted, but is now off-topic or otherwise out of scope for the site it is posted on. Historically locking a post ends the debate over whether a question should be kept on the site or deleted, and is often the final state of a question that has been deleted and undeleted more than once, or subject to a close or delete war.

and it also meets the criteria provided:

  1. The post does not meet the current guidelines for a good, on-topic question, and (opinion based/too broad)
  2. The post is stellar, in spite of its off-topic nature, and (it gives insights into a popular library from a unique perspective)
  3. There are a large number of views, upvotes and inbound links on the post, and (33,609 times, and 500+ up-votes on the answer)
  4. The post is contentious; e.g., it has been closed and reopened at least once, or deleted and undeleted at least once. (self-explanatory)

(parenthesis explanation mine)

The appropriate action was taken by closing and locking.

16
  • 5
    "was very popular when it was originally posted, but is now off-topic or otherwise out of scope"... Doesn't this line imply that the item in question has been around for a lot longer than one day? Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:36
  • 9
    @DonBoitnott who cares, if the lock serve our purpose: keep the effort of Stenberg on SO for others to read, without having endless close reopen battle so be it. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 19:48
  • 1
    @PetterFriberg That would be anyone who is interested in seeing the devices available on SO used properly, and not just however it serves your purpose. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:00
  • 2
    @DonBoitnott Do you have some reference for why it's "improper" to use a historical lock on a new post? What about it's description or guidelines indicates the post can't be new?
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:06
  • 4
    @Servy: Maybe there's the fact that the very first word in the thing is "Historical". Stack Overflow, and an oddly large number of its users, has a big problem with using words to mean things other than their obvious meaning. I suppose on a network where "off topic" is used for things that have nothing to do with topicality, using a "Historical Lock" on a question that was asked less than 24-hours ago makes sense. It always seems like Opposite Day on SO when it comes to naming things... Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:36
  • 3
    @NicolBolas Something can be both historic and recent. Historic doesn't mean "old". In fact it's quite common for historic events to be recognized as historic events immediately after they happen, even though there are certainly times where an event's historic significance isn't recognized for quite some time.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:38
  • 6
    @Servy: That is the exact same kind of logic that leads to us using "off topic" for things that have nothing to do with topicality. The fact that a person could come up with an interpretation of the word "historical" (not "historic", FYI) where it could apply does not mean that it represents a good use of the word. If you have to think about why a word would be appropriate, if you have to come up with a complex rationalization for it, then it's the wrong word. That's basic writing 101: you use the word that gives exactly the impression you want. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:42
  • 1
    @NicolBolas So because you don't understand what the word actually means we shouldn't use it to mean what the word actually means? If you want to change the name of historical locks to something you think is better, by all means, propose that change, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used for things it applies to on the grounds that the misunderstood meaning of the name doesn't apply to the situation even though the actual meaning and description apply.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:21
  • 6
    @Servy: Is it not true that the Historical Lock was created specifically to handle questions which were asked at a time that they were considered appropriate? Is it not true that the term "Historical Lock" was specifically chosen because it gives the reader the idea that such questions are a matter of "history" (ie: the past) and thus not acceptable in the present? Now, you're trying to revise the meaning of the concept, appropriating the name as completely literal, and thus, any question is equally worthy of "historical" since it was by definition asked in the past. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:41
  • 1
    @Servy: If your view of "historical" is such that any question applies, then why put the word there at all? It's utterly insane to think that the term is meant to apply equally well to a question asked 24 hours ago as one asked 8 years ago. The word "history" has the definition of "past", but it's not a synonym for "past". We have two words for the concept because they have different connotations. Ignoring those connotations represents bad communication. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:42
  • 1
    The vast majority of historically locked questions were not appropriate when they were asked. It's useful when a question becomes off topic when it was previously on topic, that's one of it's use cases, but it's not exclusively for that situation. I'm not revising the meaning of it; it has always been applicable to questions that were close worthy when first asked, even when it was created.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:44
  • @NicolBolas I'm not a big fan of the the term either, although I don't have any particularly good alternatives. If you come up with an alternative that you think is clearer and wouldn't give the false impression that it can only apply to very old posts, then by all means, propose it. I'd love to hear it.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:45
  • 2
    Stack Exchange defined historical as something to do with significance: "I'd question how that question even qualifies as historically significant. Only 15 votes? Only 720 views? Pfft. Throw that in the trash can where it belongs. It's not even a question, it failed, and barely anyone ever even looks at it." animuson's comment at this question But he now equates it to age? So :shurg: cc Nicol @Servy
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 22:30
  • @Servy To answer your specific question to me, I'd say that I tend to consider the word "historic" to align with a thing that has history. Perhaps it's not a literal meaning, but I bet more people than not would agree. Also, there's this: was very popular when it was originally posted, but is now off-topic. To me, that implies that time has passed...the post had a certain fame, then somehow the perception of it changed. That really can't happen in 24 hours. Just my opinion, I guess. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 10:34
  • 1
    @DonBoitnott The only thing I would point out is that the definition of 'historic' according to this is: 'famous or important in history, or potentially so.' - This question and answer had (has?) the potential to become historically popular / valuable. I guess you need to get the meaning contextually. For example, when scientist or any other person accomplishes something groundbreaking they say 'a historic breakthrough has been made...' which goes back to the potential of being historic.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 12:16
17

There's a problem with equating votes with quality. Remember, voting reasons are, by design, between you and whatever you believe or not believe in. I presume most of the votes are more or less the same as these comments, from the blog post:

comments from the author blog post

That's why it's very dangerous using votes as anything like quality. They may reflect quality at some point, but in this case it doesn't nor does reflect topically.

13
  • 3
    The same could be said about random water cooler questions and jokes and other lower common denominator content.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 14:50
  • 3
    This illustrates the main problem of POB questions on SO: voting can easily turn into a statement in {dis-)agreement. Same with the question itself: it does not strike me as very well researched/useful, and might just as well have received most of those upvotes because there is a great answer on it, not because the question itself was of such splendid quality.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 14:52
  • 3
    @Adriaan: If that answer hadn't been posted, the question would have been downvoted to oblivion, closed and deleted in short order. I know this because I've seen this type of question before. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 16:24
  • 1
    Votes are pretty much our only signal of quality. (Assuming you include downvotes and close votes, that is.) I'm open to the idea that these votes aren't useful, but it seems a bit of a stretch to assume commenters on a blog post on some other site are good evidence. (Now comments on the post itself are good evidence and do seem similar to these. They've been deleted, however.) Is this a rabbit trail we want to follow or only when the votes are contrary to our own opinion?
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 17:53
  • 1
    @JonEricson I ignore anything but the post itself when evaluating it. I'm evaluating the post, not the irrelevant content surrounding it. That's the only way were a critical and unbiased assessment of a post can be done. The only post where I take in a specific piece of context, is when the post is an answer and to evaluate it I have to see the question. My note here is that trying to equate votes to quality isn't entirely true due the nature of voting.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 18:41
  • 2
    @Braiam so also meta is rather useless, we just nominate a dictator and they decided what is right and wrong Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 19:09
  • 1
    @PetterFriberg that's a straw man argument. Main is dedicate to be objective, meta is subjective. So, evaluation of subjective posts are done by how convincing is the argument presented.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 19:54
  • 1
    So votes on meta is a sign of quality and votes on main are not, hmm so meta are different users, trying to represent the community but fundamentally does not trust the community because they know they know better. Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 20:11
  • 1
    Braiam no voting system is perfect but still I think prefeer democracy which includes all, I prefeer not to elect you as an elite that decides for me Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 20:14
  • 2
    @PetterFriberg "So votes on meta is a sign of quality and votes on main are not" are you deliberately misrepresenting my words? I said votes don't equate quality. That's the only reference to votes I said.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 21:26
  • 1
    Yeah maybe I don't understand, but what I'm trying to say, is if that's true (which surely is partial true in any voting system), it is valid also for meta. As a consequence we have no system to determine what is right and wrong only a bunch of non rated different ideas, so now what? Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 21:46
  • How convincing is the argument presented? Who decided if it is of quality? Commented Apr 30, 2019 at 21:55
  • 2
    @Adriaan Votes are always a statement of agreement or disagreement. If you vote up a post, you are agreeing with the author that it's useful/helpful/correct. If you vote down a post, you are disagreeing with the author on that. The argument that people voting up an answer "because they agree with it" being a deceptive or harmful signal does not seem to have any merit based on the arguments presented here so far.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2019 at 13:32
16

Yesterday, taking a cue from remarks about migration amidst this discussion, I have asked at the Open Source Meta whether the question would be a good fit for that site. The initial reaction has been broadly positive.

(A note before the link to the Open Source Meta Q&A: please do not vote on anything there unless you are a regular on that site, as we might easily drown the signal from the smaller community over there. With that covered, here is the link: https://opensource.meta.stackexchange.com/q/826/14879)

If the Open Source SE community is willing to take the question, I believe migrating it is a no-brainer, as the best resolution we can have for this situation. On the one hand, Daniel Stenberg's answer would be kept within the Network (with even a handy redirect from Stack Overflow to prevent link rot); on the other hand, we would, as far as this concrete case is concerned, get a reprieve from facing head on the various tricky questions raised throughout this discussion.

1
  • 6
    Do note there is now an answer to the Open Source Meta question that, unlike the first one there, argues against migration.
    – duplode
    Commented May 1, 2019 at 13:16
-7

Jon Ericson♦ to the rescue, thanks! This answer was not written correctly to gain the support and understanding what needed to be done.


Dear Daniel Stenberg

You made curl!

Thank you for your answer on Stack Overflow, it is inspiring and interesting to read about your effort developing such an important open-source library.

We are grateful for your effort not only developing the library, but also sharing your knowledge and thoughts on Stack Overflow.

PS: The question was unfortunately off-topic, so we had to close it and to avoid close-reopen battle also lock it, but I don't believe we should delete it.


From Stack Overflow help section emphasis mine.

When should I delete questions?

Closed questions that are of no lasting value whatsoever should be flagged and deleted.

I consider Daniel Stenberg's answer to have lasting value and therefore it should not be deleted. The answer can remain on Stack Overflow with the current close banner (or off-topic not about programming) which will clearly indicated that it's not a good fit in general for Stack Overflow. The risk that it will be used as justification is unfounded, instead it stands as example both of interesting answer and off-topic question. If the close-reopen battle continues moderator can lock the post.

3
  • 7
    "We will not delete it" is a strong statement. If nothing else, that's quite literally what we're deciding in this Meta question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:58
  • 1
    Exactly, so that's my answer and the motivation is above. Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 20:59
  • 5
    Sorry, but guy with the 30K something reputation should know better than answering off topic posts. If he could restrain himself from answering we would not have to deal with this mess in the first place. Just nuke the whole thing. This answer belongs to a blog, not here. We either have rules or we don't.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2019 at 21:32

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .