99

The sidebar showed me this question:

So, suppose there is a list:

list = ['a','b','c','d','e','a','b','c','a','b','c','d']

I want to arrange it in the following way:

new_list = [['a','b','c','d','e'],['a','b','c'],['a','b','c','d']]

Any suggestion as to how this can be accomplished?

Because it became a Hot Network Question. It has a score of 6, with 8 upvotes and 2 downvotes.

Its ten (!) answers look like Code Golf to me, but that might just be because I barely speak Python. No, wait, that's because almost all of them are in the form of "Try this: [uncommented, obscure code]".

Comments were posted under the question asking to clarify and to show their attempts, and they were upvoted, but they were not followed up.

Is this what it is now?

Were this an isolated case, you wouldn't be reading this question. I have been reading C#/.NET/Windows Forms/ASP.NET (MVC)/WCF/SQL/EF questions on a daily basis for years now, because that's my professional area of expertise, and hell to the yes is this site on a decline.

Off the top of my head and in random order, these are my heroes:

  • Eric Lippert, for everything C# and CLR
  • Jon Skeet, for everything .NET and dates
  • Raymond Chen, WinAPI, Windows in general
  • Julian Reschke, HTTP
  • Hans Passant, WinAPI, Windows Forms, COM, C++, Visual Studio
  • Ladislav Mrnka, Entity Framework (EF)
  • Chris Pratt, ASP.NET MVC
  • Stephen Cleary, async programming in C#

I remember these people, not because they appear to know everything about their subjects (not in the first place because they've specced/built/shipped/supported these things), but because they love explaining stuff.

And that is becoming a pretty rare sight on the site, nowadays.

Look. Everybody who's used C# for a couple of months can fire up LINQPad and answer any string splitting, regex matching, collection joining or XML/JSON/DateTime parsing question. And yay, the asker is happy and the answerer has a couple more worthless reputation points. But in doing so, are you making the Internet a better place? Are you improving your knowledge? Are you helping the asker?

I genuinely wonder how Stack Overflow is planning to attract new experts, or good writers willing to become experts. Because I haven't seen any join in my favorite tags for a long time now, or at least not that I remember (the above of course isn't an exhaustive list, there is influx of new talent, but it's hidden between the masses).

More one-off questions with more one-off answers aren't going to save this site in the long run. There's simply not enough decent developers for that.

So: is my observation correct? Is it something that should change? How?

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  • 8
    Given the minimum age limit is 13 (16 if you're in the EU) we don't need experts that can explain stuff to a 5-yr old ....
    – rene
    Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 12:41
  • 6
  • 13
    I can totally see Hans Passant get a comment under one of his epic answers to come: Just answer the frigging question, will you! probably by one of our younger users ... ;)
    – rene
    Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 13:00
  • 2
    this is probably related: Why are so many useless questions ranked highly, and vice versa?
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 13:01
  • 13
    Correctly, the question has been closed. If we all vote to delete it, all those who spent time on it will lose any rep gained. If there were enough of us doing that consistently, it would soon teach or discourage at least some low quality contributors. Of course, from the POV of the site owners, this is probably what they want. Lots of people, the OP gets an answer, we clean up to maintain site quality. But no, I can't imagine where the new quality contributors are going to come from, in this venue, anymore with nothing to attract them... Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 19:36
  • 8
    @CindyMeister maybe it's time to create a delete votes queue instead of having the delete information hidden behind a small tools button that no one see. Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 20:29
  • 3
    @TemaniAfif Interesting idea, indeed. I've noticed with some delight that, since I hit the 20k rep barrier a couple of weeks ago that I actually see a Delete rather than a Close link in some queus (LQ is the one I recall, but it might also be in others). If the site owners don't want to make one (whether for principle or resource reasons), perhaps one could do something in the way of a (longer) list and integrate it into the CV chat room? Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 20:36
  • 1
    The question is now closed with the message "Update the question so it focuses on one problem only. This will help others answer the question". That is not the issue. It has one clear problem (if the constraints mentioned it its comments were incorporated in the question). It just is a duplicate of hundreds of other similar questions, and the problem is answers dumping code without explanation.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 22:35
  • 31
    Early SO benefited greatly from programmers having cut their teeth in the forums. Somewhat later there was plenty that did well, participating in Q+A with multiple users contributing and learning the ropes from each other. Not just the technical expertise, above all how the communicate effectively. All of that is gone, people are spread too thin, almost nobody wants to help bring a Q+A to a good end. Only the negative re-enforcement remained, the site is incapable of nurturing the next experts. We all know how that happened. Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 22:37
  • 2
    your pointing to question looking like Code Golf wannabe gives a very strong indication that it's indeed too_broad (lacks focus in modernised parlance). At CG.SE this broadness is balanced by specialized site-specific rules making it manageable but Stack Overflow has nothing like that (for a good reason but that's a different story)
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 25, 2019 at 7:32
  • 3
    @HansPassant We all know why that happened.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 12:45
  • 14
    Thanks for the kind words. I do not have insight into whether or not there are new experts coming in, but I agree with the sentiment expressed in some of the answers that it is increasingly difficult to find good questions. Moreover, pushing back by constructively discouraging bad questions then draws the "you're not being sufficiently welcoming" response, even if the pushback has helpful suggestions for clarifying the question. It can be frustrating. Commented Jan 3, 2020 at 0:59
  • We early adopters/believers believed the trade off of free contribution for the sake of learning was worth it. Not any longer, and mostly for just one reason, we don't like being insulted when we ask legitimate questions or even worse closed as off-topic or duplicate of nothing shown.
    – JWP
    Commented Jan 3, 2020 at 15:42
  • 7
    @John someone asking to clarify your question is not insulting, neither is telling that your question lies outside the scope of the site.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 3, 2020 at 19:05
  • CodeCastor, I've worked in IT for 30 years and have pretty thick skin, so I take nothing personally. Especially at SO. Moderators who apply a qualiy of question criteria subjectively, are wrong. Alas moderators often soar in the clouds, immune to thown poison.
    – JWP
    Commented Jan 3, 2020 at 23:19

5 Answers 5

39

You seem to be flummoxed by the exact same thing I was a few years back.

I feel like the real core issue to questions like this is that they speak to a lack of clear direction or clear guidance on why these questions are or aren't OK on the site. Now, on the surface, they're...iffy at best. But a lot of people want to answer them. Then we get frustrated when people who ask questions like this consistently get q-banned because it doesn't translate as well when they venture into other tags.

Oh, the askers also get more rep for this too.

Head, meet wall. Repeatedly.

The only thing we as a community can do is downvote. No need to bother commentating to the effect of why, just downvote. Send the signal that this question is not very good or very quality on the site.

The thing that Community Managers and leaders in Stack Exchange can do is expressly lay out what their mission and their plan for the site is, and we can try to meet in the middle. Who knows - it might turn out that they actually value those kinds of questions.

(...which would genuinely suck for the rest of us.)

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    "it might turn out that they actually value those kinds of questions" you know as well as I do that there's no "might", SEO juice is what drives the management here nowadays.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 12:53
32

There is, and has always been, a solution to that, and maybe it's time we took it more seriously.

Downvote.

Rate those posts with your votes, and don't be afraid to downvote. Do it dispassionately, and do it often. If you feel that an explanation to the code is warranted but isn't there, downvote and let the next user provide a better post.

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    I would say it should also come with a change of culture. If people stopped treating downvotes like slaps in the face, they'd also stop countering them. Mayhaps I doth hope too much. :[
    – E_net4
    Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 13:52
  • 2
    @CodeCaster Write an answer that does contain the explanation, along with DV the worst ones? Can be a lot of work, of course. I ran into one of those cases the other day. Someone wrote just the code - very good code - as an answer. The OP requested explanation in a comment and got back: "Go read the documentation". I thought long and hard about whether I should just DV or write an answer with comments. Problem was, that code was just so good I couldn't improve on it... Commented Dec 24, 2019 at 19:30
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    The problem is that there's more s**tty questions than people to downvote them.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 12:46
  • 1
    @IanKemp On the other hand, one can vote more often than ask questions: 40 times a day vs whichever cap is applied on that user. Let's make this scale by incentivizing more people to downvote.
    – E_net4
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 13:37
  • @CindyMeister Copy the code and write an explanation. I've seen that happen before and get more upvotes than the answer with the code.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Jan 4, 2020 at 21:38
27

Where's the new boatload of experts who can explain stuff to me like I'm five?

They are not sticking around.

Unfortunately, it is getting harder to find good, well researched, or even just well written questions. Searching out the questions that are worth the effort of an answer is getting harder. And it is tedious.

In addition, the percentage of people who are willing to vote for poorly written questions and quick (low effort) answers is increasing. That is frustrating for the people who care about taking the time to write decent answers.

Finally, if you write an answer to a question that someone else thinks is not good or well researched, some people are liable to downvote on sight. That is discouraging, and a real reason why people with the knowledge and explaining skills stop trying to be helpful.

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    Questions are voted inappropriately -> experts can't find good quality questions, answer bad questions instead -> people get upset about downvotes, start casting pity/counter upvotes -> questions are voted inappropriately.
    – E_net4
    Commented Dec 28, 2019 at 12:50
  • 1
    This. This sentiment is the problem the site faces. It is a problem created by what defines "on topic", but the problem itself is stated perfectly by you. We need to retain our experts, they are world class. We need to encourage quality questions that experts are interested in. We need to remove any outlook from the system which shuts down questions experts are interested in.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 20:24
21

The reputation system tends to promote quick answers over thorough answers

I recognized this as a potential problem way back in 2010:

I'm not sure that a fix is possible even if it were desirable. If you look around at questions and answers on Stack Overflow, you'll find they are quite standardized, efficient and timely. In fact, from the point of view of a programmer looking for an answer, Stack Overflow works nicely, thank you very much. It seems like there are plenty of people who can thrive or ignore extrinsic motivation, so there doesn't seem to be a broad problem here. If you want to make an omelet, you're going to break a few eggs.

Just don't expect to get chickens.

Putting more effort into explaining the answer rarely pays off when it comes to reputation because people tend to want to just get to the code that answers the question. If you understand Python (or have good intuition about reading foreign code), the answers are plenty informative as they take several different approaches to the problem. One might prefer an answer to goes into depth on the answer, but would the voters sufficiently reward the extra work? Experience suggests they won't.

Questions that seek explanation tend to be treated with suspicion

Or rather, questions are treated with suspicion and anything that makes them stand out puts them at risk of downvotes and closure. Before it hit the network hot questions, the question was answered and upvoted. Since it has been closed, deleted and generally downvoted. Why? Because it garnered attention and that draws out people who are highly critical of questions. (Also, this very meta question seems to have brought down the wrath of the voters.)

A question that asks for explanation may very well look like homework or be seen as too basic. So an experienced asker would have learned that requesting more than just the code is a mistake. So answerers don't provide it. So there's a vicious cycle brought on by people who don't want to see content that doesn't meet their heuristics of quality. I have had some luck with answering my own question with a detailed explanation, but that is not without risks. (Self-answered questions are also nonstandard and therefore suspicious.)

Explaining code well is a rarer skill than writing code well

Perhaps this is self-evident: being good at explaining something means you need to have a solid grasp of the material and have the ability to describe it to others. So the set of excellent teachers is a subset of the excellent coders. Therefore you'd expect more answers to cut straight to the solution without the extra step of describing it. The only way to become good at something is to practice and most programmers don't tend to practice explaining their code to others.

Explaining code in your answer is a great way to practice, so we're in a sort of Catch-22. The site doesn't particularly encourage explaining your answers so people don't tend to learn to be good at it. (This is by no means a new problem.) Weirdly answers here suggest downvoting as a solution rather than, you know, writing a better answer. Helping new programmers just isn't a skill valued by the community, it seems. Or perhaps it's yet another manifestation of the general suspicion people have of content because of the reputation system.

Consider fixing the system from within

As my former colleague once said:

In other words, [downvoting] is the "I just walked five extra steps to throw away a candy wrapper instead of littering, so I've done my part to protect the environment for this year" of the SO world. It really is the least you can do.

This is just a human nature thing; people who normally put in a certain level of effort may do much less when you give them an easier alternative that still lets them feel like they've somehow contributed. I don't even mind [downvoting] too much when it's used in conjunction with other efforts, rather than instead of them.

(This was about adding a comment linking to "What Stack Overflow is Not", but the principle is the same when it comes to downvoting. At least it is in my mind.)

Nothing says you can't add another answer with an explanation if that's something you value. Maybe you don't yet have the skill to do it well. There's really only one way to acquire that skill and it will be incredibly valuable to you in your career and job satisfaction. (Though it probably won't do as much for your reputation on the site as one might hope.)

While I'm on the topic, that's also a good way to get some quality questions on the site. Asking is also a skill that can be shockingly difficult to acquire on the site these days.

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    Where to begin...I suppose I'll start with some slight umbrage on this statement: "Weirdly answers here suggest downvoting as a solution rather than, you know, writing a better answer." Given the result set that comes back from Google for "python group list by value site:stackoverflow.com", I'm loathe to add yet another needle for an ever growing haystack.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 9:26
  • 2
    I won't contest that Python questions fall into this category of "quick answers". One has most everything one needs at their disposal to answer something quickly - an interpreter, Google for docs (or Kite or one's favorite IDE), and just enough Python knowledge to answer questions like this. But does it mean that those kinds of questions should be answered when, again, we have a lot of prior art on the subject matter, and any other question framed like this in any other language or technology would be given an even harsher treatment?
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 9:28
  • I realize that downvoting is also the path of least effort, but I feel like your analogy is broken. I'm of the firm belief that, in the situation where an OP has failed to search for an existing answer and elects to post a question which can genuinely be found within a few minutes of earnest Googling, then the main support system which led the OP to ask that question in the first place has already failed them to a large extent. It's the equivalent of having a dump truck of candy wrappers strewn about; there's a lot of candy wrappers, but we can at least throw one or two away.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 9:31
  • But, at the end of the day, I believe my comment to Cody Gray on the matter applies equally in this context. To some, this question seems fine and it is mystifying as to why it'd ever be called into question. To others, it's mystifying as to why the pattern has survived or continued as long as it has.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 9:32
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    "The reputation system tends to promote quick answers over thorough answers" I don't have the data to contest this generalization, but if this were universally true, I would be a mere pauper when it comes to reputation. I don't necessarily give quick answers. I do, however, give thorough answers. Often excessively thorough. Yet, somehow, they still get rewarded with just enough reputation to give me the privileges I wanted. Will being the slowest, most prolix gun in the east (bet that acronym won't catch on) put me on top of the rep leaderboard? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely not.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 9:50
  • 1
    @Makoto It sounds like you're trying to make this an issue of whether some questions are too simple/basic for Stack Overflow. I thought we had that settled a long time ago. "How do I move the turtle in Logo?" is an acceptable question. The fact that it has been answered elsewhere on Google doesn't matter. The Encyclopedia Britannica editors don't care that a longer treatise has been published on the subject. If it's relevant and not already in their volume, then they cover it. So do we. If this was a duplicate, then mark it as such. If not, answer it. Preferably with a high-quality answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 9:52
  • 1
    @CodyGray The system promoting quick answers over thorough answers does not imply that you wouldn't get any rep for thorough answers. It implies you'd get more rep if you only wrote quick answers. It encourages quick answers more by rewarding them more. I'd add: it also promotes bad one-sentence-never-googled-questions over good questions, for the same reasons: they are easier to ask, they get asked a lot more, and people still upvote them a lot (likely because they are also quicker to read than long, good questions).
    – janh
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 13:13
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    @Makoto: I suspect we fundamentally disagree on the value of asking and answering questions. As designed, Stack Overflow has always had getting useful results on Google as a secondary effect of individuals asking and answering each other's questions. Fortunately, there are other tools besides downvoting to achieve the secondary goal. For instance, you might consider upvoting the better question and answers your search turned up. Or edit them to be better for future searchers. Or, as I suggest here, answer some of the questions Google shows early to people looking for answers.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 18:59
  • @CodyGray: I suspect most people don't analyze things that way. I enjoy getting upvotes years after I post detailed answers because I know it helped yet another person to understand. But when I was writing those answers, it was pretty clear someone else had already answered quickly and got a head start in terms of upvotes. We tend to rely on heuristics that might not have the long-term benefits in scope.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 19:07
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    @Makoto: I'm not convinced the problem is that people can't find the solution to their problems because there are too many similar questions. Far more likely people aren't finding what they are looking for because they don't recognize that their question is the same as another at a certain level of abstraction. If I didn't already have an idea of what it would take to solve the problem in question, I doubt I'd use the best search terms.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 7:08
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    I'm kind of amazed at this answer. It is filled with the kind of conspiracy theories and "damn elitist closers" attitude that I expect from less seasoned users, not from an employee of good standing. Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 13:58
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    Where do you read that in Jon’s answer, @Heretic? I’m not seeing it. While it’s not unheard of for me to differ from Jon in my approach to the site, I find that there’s rather little in this answer that I disagree with. Mostly, as pointed out, I disagree on the implications. Yes, FGITW nets more rep, but it doesn’t matter, since slow, thorough answers still get plenty of rep. I certainly don’t see any “damn elitist closers” attitude here. (Although Jon is definitely skeptical of closure, and I definitely disagree with him there, his assessment is far more nuanced than you are implying.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 17:38
  • 2
    @CodyGray The heading "Questions that seek explanation tend to be treated with suspicion" followed by "questions are treated with suspicion and anything that makes them stand out puts them at risk of downvotes and closure" sure seems like mind reading to me. "So there's a vicious cycle brought on by people who don't want to see content that doesn't meet their heuristics of quality" also seems rather unwelcoming to those who seek to curate the site to ensure high quality. The problem is, as it has been from the beginning, a question of whether that's what SO is for. Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 18:33
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    It is [status-by-design], and it is a huge gaping hole in the site. If Stack Overflow does one thing in 2020, it should be to address the failure of the current system to encourage quality content. There is no mystery here, the heuristics are written in the close reasons, which literally define what is on and off topic. Refine those. Acknowledge that is where the problem resides, and that neither side is to blame. The system itself needs to be fixed. The set of close reasons needs to be vastly expanded, needs to have each reason indisputably clear, and needs to have each reason self contained.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 20:19
  • 1
    I managed, @JL2210. I think you can, too. As can everyone else.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 4, 2020 at 22:18
13

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I see no problems whatsoever with that question. It was specific, relevant, and detailed enough to answer without being excessively long.

The asker wanted to achieve a particular, specific programming task in Python. They showed their input, their expected output, and clearly asked a question about how to achieve it. If only we were so lucky on all questions.

Perhaps there were some garbage answers being posted, but that doesn’t make the question itself bad. Downvote the bad answer(s) and post a better one yourself.

You explicitly recognize Hans Passant and Raymond Chen as, for example, Win32 experts. Well, half or more of the Win32 questions we get here are probably equally as “basic” as that Python question. Yet, Hans and Raymond continue to answer them with something illuminating, where even experts learn something. Martijn Pieters (or a dozen other resident Python experts) almost certainly could have done the same thing for that question.

Not being a Python programmer, much less an expert, I don’t know how to accomplish the task described in that question. As such, were I some day trying to do it, I imagine that I would find a Stack Overflow Q&A describing how to do it to be very useful. (Unless it was already asked and answered; then it would be less useful. But then it would be a duplicate, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.)

On the other hand, I do know how to accomplish a task like this in an efficient way using x86 assembly. That probably sounds more “interesting” and “obscure” to you, and probably to others, but not to me, since I already know how to do it. Well, that’s kind of the point of a Q&A site. Some of the questions are going to be “easy” to you, and have obvious answers: these are the ones you answer. Others, you will not know the answer to: these are the ones you ask or watch carefully to learn something new.

Explain the problem to me with that question, again?

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    Sorry for not mentioning you in my question, I like your answers as well. ;) My problem with this question is that it's unfindable in the future ("arrange letters into specific groups" is about all there is for Google to index, and there's thousands of hits for that already), and that it's bound to be a duplicate of more generic questions, and that it doesn't show any research effort. It's a "chunk of work" that people happily answer, poorly. Do you see any experts criticizing those answers? Are they perfect then? Do you see any explanation? Is the code posted there reusable? Good?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Dec 25, 2019 at 19:50
  • 8
    So no, the question doesn't have glaring problems per se, it's just that questions like this are the bread and butter of the site, and I don't think it's improving the knowledge that's present on the site, the opposite in fact, it's spreading out information more and more as we chug along, making knowledge less accessible by making it harder to find it. At the same time, it's chasing away or not nurturing experts, because an answer gets you upvotes, whether you explain the code therein or not. So it's the user moderators not doing their work, and the answerers doing a poor job at theirs.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Dec 25, 2019 at 19:52
  • 2
    And that, again, is not necessarily the problem with this question, but with the site at large. Yes, earlier questions were simpler and the site received more specific questions as time went by, because the simpler questions were properly answered and findable. Nowadays, it's easier to just ask a new one, as you'll get a new answer faster than you'll find an existing one - but is that answer better than the already existing ones?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Dec 25, 2019 at 19:53
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    I'll add a little bit to what CodeCaster did before me - the problem space is grouping by a specific key or value. It's such a specific thing that Python has a utility for it, and there is no shortage of documentation or examples out there on the internet (including Stack Overflow) on how to accomplish what the OP is asking to accomplish.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 26, 2019 at 4:41
  • 19
    Ironically enough, though, this actually demonstrates the core issue. To the average passer-by, this question looks fine and there's nothing that immediately juts out to make it seem like it's suspect or a poor question. To those of us who are looking for more meaningful questions to answer, this comes across as a paper cut. Not only is it asking a similar question to those beforehand, there's just enough reasonable doubt to question why there's some population of the site who doesn't think this is a good question, and if it's them that's wrong.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 26, 2019 at 4:46
  • 2
    I think the question is not very useful and poorly researched. It should stay open but has fully merited the downvotes. Commented Dec 26, 2019 at 23:14
  • 2
    That question is indefensible for the simple fact that there is zero effort shown, just "gimme teh codez".
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Dec 29, 2019 at 12:49
  • 3
    That’s a downvote reason, @Ian, not a close or delete reason.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 30, 2019 at 19:39
  • @CodeCaster If the problem is that it is not findable, you have the option (assuming enough rep) to edit the question title to make it more general and informative.
    – Zan Lynx
    Commented Jan 5, 2020 at 21:20
  • @Zan the problem is that for any given problem, there are hundreds, if not thousands of questions, equally poorly answered. Finding a canonical duplicate, where smart people explain things in a such a way that a lot of people can understand them is the hard part. Also, how do you edit a question one cannot find?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 5, 2020 at 21:25
  • @Zan also, it's a problem of describing things in such a way that people looking for it can find it. That fails if someone is trying to do something which they don't know how it's called.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 5, 2020 at 21:26
  • @CodeCaster Your problem then goes much deeper than low quality questions. If you state that no possible question title can cover it, then there can be no high quality question possible at all.
    – Zan Lynx
    Commented Jan 5, 2020 at 21:28
  • @Zan that is not what I'm saying. Also, search engines index more than just the page title.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 5, 2020 at 21:35

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