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I'll keep this simple.

This is the relevant section from the blog post that the CEO put together, emphasis mine.

We’re continuing to work with customers to build communities on Stack Overflow through our Reach & Relevance products, which consists of banner ads, tag sponsorships, podcast, the newsletter, and blog sponsorships, and finally Collectives™ on Stack Overflow. We launched a new Collective—GitLab—and surpassed 20,000 members across all Collectives. Collectives on Stack Overflow are communities where developers can directly engage with technology organizations and find resources they need when they need them in one place.

Our goal is to give developers direct access to the resources they and subject matter experts that can help them find answers when they need them. Our customers can also get deeper insights into who is interacting and engaging with their content and technologies on Stack Overflow. For every technology vendor we work with to launch a Collective, our goal is to do the same with an open source partner.

This is the very Meta question I asked highlighting the raw tension that - okay, the company clearly is going to shove this down our throats has its own vision and road map for this feature, and asking for a clear sense of "how are you going to adapt the community's feedback into this?"

Nothing feels more like salt in an open wound to have the CEO decide to post something about this in a light that feels entirely tone-deaf to discussions that have been happening about this on Meta.

I know that Phillipe is working on guidelines for Collectives and appears to be gathering feedback there, but we haven't seen any action on this since the beginning of the month, and the CEO's post - to me - took a lot of the good will out of Phillipe's likely well-intended response to how the community can handle Collectives.

So I'm going to make this unambiguous, one last time, for the hopes of getting a straight answer.

Is Stack Overflow interested in our input on Collectives or not?

"No" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

I realize that this effort is in vain, but ultimately I want the company to own their response to this. Slow-playing the community on this discussion does not lead me to believe that this is being done in good faith.

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  • 3
    It's important to paint paid products in a positive light to attract future buyers.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:23
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    @KevinB - They've already been bought!!
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:25
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    Yes, however, like teams, it's a service that isn't "done" when one or three companies pay for it
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:26
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    @KevinB: I was referring to the Prosus acquisition. Stack Overflow doesn't need to sell itself in that light. Unless you're referring to selling spaces for Collectives, and it's my understanding that this pricing structure hasn't been worked out yet, since they'll also want to transition to work with open-source projects (who may not even have a profit model).
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:29
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    When you ask something and you only get vague run-around "answers", then the real answer is almost always "No".
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:35
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    I understand your question, and I agree that it would be nice to get a real answer from the company, but I don't see what's supposed to be "tone deaf" about the quote you linked. Regardless of feedback reception, I can see why a milestone quantity of members could be seen as something to celebrate or mention... The Company has already made it quite clear that there aren't plans to ditch Collectives at the moment. I guess what I'm asking is really: How does the blog post/ quote relate to your question? How does celebrating x total users equate to being interested or not in meta feedback?
    – zcoop98
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:55
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    @zcoop98: We're questioning what this is doing or how we're meant to interact with it, and it's being lauded as something to be universally celebrated, as if it's doing something revolutionary. It's like asking the car salesperson why anti-rusting is needed when they're broadcasting that anti-rust treatment is the best thing since sliced bread.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 21:57
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    I really do get that; I guess I just disagree with you that that behavior is negative or unexpected in the CEO blog that's celebrating Q3 landmarks. They launched a new platform, and they've clearly communicated that they're excited about it, much more than Meta has been. But a blog post like this is exactly the place for such a remark in my eyes, and the quoted paragraphs follow right after mentions of other paid products (Teams and Advertising). Frankly, I think it would be weird not to mention Collectives where they did.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 22:04
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    @zcoop98: This "excitement" you speak of is so far out of touch with those of us who've given feedback on it, that it honestly is negative. It's like our concerns or our questions or our opinions on it simply don't matter. And honestly, if they don't matter, I could live with that too. I just want them to be honest and up-front about it and own that.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 22:11
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    "Nothing feels more like salt in an open wound to have the CEO decide to post something..." Makoto with all due respect and please ignore anything I say if you like, you are taking the whole thing too personally. Very likely the CEO didn't write that blog post by himself and this is more or less just a newsletter. Newsletters from companies are usually full of boasting and self-advertisement, far from an impartial, self-critical assessment. The impact of this blog post on collectives or the platform is probably rather minuscule. I would just ignore it. Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 10:49
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    The given statement isn't even wrong factually, just misleading in that it kind of conveys the message that collectives are thriving, while they aren't. For practical purposes the impact of collectives on the platform is very small currently. "CEO of company is overly optimistic" isn't really news. It happens every day, everywhere (to some degree). Also Philippe answered the last question (maybe not satisfactorily, but still there is some engagement happen). Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 10:53
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    @Trilarion: The CEO gets to own this because it was submitted with his name. Moot point on whether or not the CEO actually wrote it. Next, the statement wasn't wrong, but that doesn't make it any less aggravating. It just conveys to me, an onlooker who's been trying to get the company's attention about this for something like four months, feel like this whole exercise is in vain and is pointless; they're going to continue to tout and celebrate the feature while overlooking or ignoring (at least publicly) the criticism or concerns raised by the community. Y'know, the "other" community.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 15:52
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    @Trilarion: To Philippe's response, I'm pretty sure I addressed that in the comments...but in the interest of transparency, a question of, "how do you want us to provide feedback" being responded to as, "of course we listen to feedback, don't say otherwise" really isn't answering anything.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 15:54
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    The last point I'm going to make on this though @Trilarion, is your concession of "just ignore it". This is the reason we're in this swamp to begin with. The community gets slow-played and engagement doesn't happen as quickly or as earnestly as development does, and so the community stops bothering and stops making noise about it. Then, this cycle repeats itself where feedback stops mattering and we're kind of stewing about it. That "live with it" culture is what we've been suffering for a very long time, and I no longer see any reason or rationale to continue propping that culture up.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 15:56
  • 2
    Lack of answers to our concerns, lack of movement on the purpose/guidelines for articles, followed by silence, then a blog post touting it as a success, certainly doesn't help the feedback issue.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 18:29

2 Answers 2

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You didn't get an official answer to this question for about a month now and it's the second similar question in a row, so I think that basically is an answer by itself. No, there is not much interest by the company to communicate a lot about Collectives.

I don't mind really about the company blog, it's advertorial in nature and will always present a distorted picture.

How impressed should I be by 20k (now 30k between all collectives) pressing a (join collective) button? But then, how impressed should I be by hundreds of meta users pressing a (downvote) button? Surely there are success metrics available for the feature and hopefully they measure the real impact on the site. The impact of Articles for example is probably very small right now.

But I also see the lack of timely responses to the community feedback on the feature. The company listens and asks for feedback occasionally, but that mostly remains a one-way interaction. There aren't many responses to the feedback given and if there are, it's mostly "we're on it". The model is that they are mostly developing in the dark and who knows, tomorrow the sunset of Collectives or a complete overhaul and Articles for everyone could be announced, everything seems possible.

Under these circumstances it's best to give feedback once and then forget about it until an official update happens. This could probably be done better with more back-and-forth communication and would probably result in more engagement from the community, but isn't happening right now.

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    I know I said I didn't want this to be the model of how we sent feedback to the company, but at this point, through their inaction they've said plenty on what kind of feedback they'll take from Meta. They've burned a bridge with me on this one, which is unfortunate. I suppose the leadership didn't take me seriously when I said that they couldn't afford to half-ass a working relationship with Meta.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 25, 2021 at 15:30
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Let's say they agree with the feedback that they've solicited and received, and they want to incorporate it. Let's imagine they're working on figuring out how to do that, planning changes, and possibly writing code.

Are they not supposed to say anything positive about Collectives or acquire any new customers in the meantime?

I just don't understand how the company's actions of adding a single new Collective or saying a single nice thing about Collectives in a blog post detract in any way from the good will.


Full disclosure: my employer is a customer of Collectives, but I'm not currently involved with either the collectives themselves or their subject matter in any way.

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    At this point I've left a trail in my wake about Collectives, and it's just more expedient to ask folks to just read up on that for them to know how I really feel about them. But to be honest, what I'm saying is that it's fine for them to say something positive about it, but it fills this awkward silence between when they're supposedly getting some guidance on how we as a community can work with it, and how we're able to provide feedback about it. The timing is off and that's why it feels so out of touch with reality or expectations.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 22:28
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    To the point of if they shouldn't acquire new customers - I would sure hope that somehow they have the wherewithal to slam the brakes on this if they start realizing that just diamond moderators handling this isn't going to scale.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 22:30
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    @Makoto I'm familiar with your feedback. I just can't agree that this blog post, in particular, suggests that the company is ignoring the feedback (which has been far from unanimous in many respects). And adding a single additional Collective surely isn't going to cause any scaling issues. I don't think slamming the brakes is required: just not recklessly speeding ahead. And I've seen no signs of such reckless speeding.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 22:44
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    If, a year from now, the core issues still aren't fixed, that'll be another matter, of course. At that point, I'd be more inclined to agree with the sentiment that the feedback is being ignored.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2021 at 22:45
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    Two points: The first is that Collectives simply appeared one day, and the company has only just recently started to move in the direction of, "well, let's talk about them". Given their track record for history and reacting to feedback, this is pretty poor. Second, there's no reason for us to wait for a year if there's a problem now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 15:39
  • 1
    I'm not sure what typical product cycles are in the technological world, I'm a bit in a special niche here, but my impression was that one year is a very long time and products that haven't shown to be a success are already declared dead much earlier (six months maybe). The intentions of the company with regard to collectives rather suggest that they think that they have more time available. No article within the first months doesn't seem to be particularly worrying as long as a change to the system is coming at some point. Maybe that's just how development is done and we need to be patient. Commented Oct 29, 2021 at 11:44

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