319

Yes, that's a pretentious title.

I love commenting. I'm on my way to having posted 15,000 comments. I want to help people improve their question so it won't be closed, or help them find a duplicate that answers it.

But I notice useful, non-harmful, non-unwelcoming comments disappearing left and right. Not only mine, but in this case one of mine is indeed what this question is about.

People apparently can flag comments as "no longer needed" to make them go away and successively refuse to improve their question, removing the comment as a signpost for both other commenters (who then might post the same improvement request again) and later visitors (not seeing any comments, assuming the question is fine).

Yesterday a 150th question was posted by someone with the age old misunderstanding that "What have you tried" means "Show the code you have that made you end up at this problem", and not "Show what you have tried to solve this problem". Big difference.

I commented something along the lines of:

Please read [ask] and show what you have tried. This is a simple indexof+substring or regex operation.

I posted this comment to allure the OP to edit their question to either show their broken code, or to mention terms they've encountered while searching for a solution.

They responded that their question already contains what they've tried (it doesn't), and a 6K rep answerer supported them and called me a troll. Of course that one was flagged by me and it got removed, because they were name-calling.

But my point is that my comment, asking for clarification, was flagged and successively removed.

If that's the current state of affairs, I'm going to stop commenting on bad questions altogether, and thus resort to "drive-by-downvoting", which will ultimately lead to compassion upvotes ("Why was this downvoted? I don't know either, have an upvote"), beating the question ban system and devaluating reputation points. Good luck upholding question quality like that.

So: can you pretty please with sugar on top rethink the way you handle comment flags? This feels very unwelcoming.

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  • 152
    The whole discussion revolving around "unwelcoming comments" is enough of a reason for me not to comment on how the question at hand could be improved. It's just not worth the hassle. Nowadays I stick to the good old "Downvote, flag if necessary, and move on".
    – Seth
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:36
  • 37
    I'm starting to feel it's a lost case. Stop commenting altogether and you'll still see comments going like "it seems we have trolls in this tag randomly downvoting posts". Ideally, we'd think of ways to minimize harm, be it with or without commenting.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:42
  • 30
    @E_net4 they post the 'random-downvoting trolls' comments/metas already, so no change. The OP's will always find some way to lash out when a slave-revolt leaves them with no homework to hand in but, at least, downvotes with no comments leaves them with no single target username for a whipping. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:50
  • 76
    Uh, I'm normally a bit apprehensive about the criticism of the new welcoming thing, but I'll happily upvote this one. Politely asking the OP to provide context should not be considered unwelcoming and this sounds like a blatant misuse of the "no longer needed" flag to me.
    – ivarni
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:58
  • 52
    I'm in the same boat with 30,625 comments (I like to think usually friendly and often helpful) and I sure as hell won't be wasting my time authoring any more until there is a transparent and sane policy around this.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 10:06
  • 35
    @Dukeling there's nothing wrong with "what have you tried", when phrased constructively. By commenting what I did, I was asking "Are you really asking how to find a substring within a string? Because there are thousands of examples about that on the web" - but then in a polite, constructive way. That's not a "partial answer", that's pulling out of the OP what they have tried, in order to let them either improve their question or find an appropriate duplicate.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 10:33
  • 68
    Has anyone else just lost interest in this and carried on as if "the welcoming" didn't happen? Or is that just me.
    – Liam
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:11
  • 52
    @MarkRotteveel Is that seriously the bar for "unwelcoming" nowadays? I have not been around much but if so that is honestly scary. Pandering is never the answer. Never. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:15
  • 128
    Why does it seem like more effort is required to post a comment than is required of people wanting expert help? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:22
  • 68
    @Plutonix You have hit the nail on the head my friend. And it's because SE is deliberately encouraging entitlement. Scary. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:27
  • 30
    @plutonix how very unwelcoming of you(/sarcasm). SE turned into a cellphone provider... 'if you are with us already, then you are owed nothing and tough luck. But to get you to sign up with us, we will give you the world. Established curators are few and far between, new users are a dime a thousand....if you make money from traffic, who would you pander for? :/.... Really sad
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:42
  • 79
    @MarkRotteveel When we make a rule that says "everything you write must be completely utterly impossible for anyone in the entire world to read as unwelcoming" it will become infeasible to communicate at all. There is always someone who will misread, or misinterpret, or just flat out decide that something pleasant enough has offended them. We cannot, absolutely cannot, prioritise pandering to this small number of people's sensitivities at the total expense of all other goals, not when one of those goals (keeping the community useful and productive) is of absolute vital importance. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:28
  • 86
    Bad, poorly written, no-effort questions make me feel unwelcome. What can we do about that? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:33
  • 53
    I intend to be unwelcoming to lazy, ignorant posters treating this as a read-me-the-manpage service. If the question took longer to type than the answer would take to discover (say, the poster asking what the right separator for <paths> on a command line was) SO should be unwelcoming. Because the question quality has gotten so low it's getting to be simply not worth my time wading through the dreck.
    – jthill
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 15:15
  • 56
    The problem with a lot of people seems they have zero backbone to take constructive criticism today. A lot of todays developers would have struggled back in the day when out had to crack open a dead tree and try to figure out a solution to their problem and some reason the new generation of developers think they can put in zero effort into asking something and get the solution for free. The 10 years I been on this site it went from people that wanted help with their issues to people that want us to do their work for them. IMO: People that want the solution seem to be the ones that get offended Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 15:25

9 Answers 9

188

Yes. In fact, you should probably stop participating at all. No, I am not being facetious.

Stack Exchange has made it pretty clear with their most recent policy nonsense that they are no longer interested in the founding tenets of Stack Overflow - high-quality questions and answers by professional programmers. To me, a "professional" is not defined only by experience and skill but by participation; I would consider everyone who has worked to build SO over the years by e.g. posting comments trying to point new users in the right direction, voting on Meta, and/or working review queues as professionals. To put it bluntly, professional programmers are those who give a sh*t.

As can be seen by the above definition, the hordes of Elbonian vampires invading Stack Overflow are decidedly not professionals. Yet it has become harder and harder to prevent them from cluttering the site with garbage (see: removal of question close reasons, redefinition of "not an answer" flag to be ever-narrower), and under the auspices of "welcoming comments only", it will become even more difficult. Why?

Simple: it's because Stack Exchange is no longer interested in professional programmers as users of this site; they just want warm bodies to drive page and ad views. There are a lot more Elbonian vampires than professionals, and Stack Exchange is a business: they're naturally going to optimise for what makes them money.

So in short, professional programmers are no longer welcome on Stack Overflow because we are less valuable to Stack Exchange than Elbonians. Any contribution a professional makes - regardless if it's the most beautiful, thorough, well-researched question or answer that could touch the face of God - is worth less than one of indeterminate value from an Elbonian, since most professionals don't see ads due to high rep.

It's time to accept that Stack Overflow, as a place for professional programmers, is dead. Walk away, don't look back, find another community that is willing to welcome you for your deserving contributions. You deserve better. True professionals deserve better.

Stack Exchange management is not going to stop chasing the almighty dollar, regardless of what they may claim. Stop wasting your time and effort on a lost cause.

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    This seems to be the case, since the new code of conduct puts much more emphasis on being welcoming than on putting actual effort into the question you're asking
    – mag_zbc
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:43
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    @yivi: Not sure if joke, but Ian is referring to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/269289/… Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:45
  • 19
    There's a bit of a non-sequitur here: high-rep users don't personally see ads, of course, but since their posts drive hundreds of thousands/millions/tens of millions of views, they should presumably still be valuable on that basis. (See tediously inaccurate "Impact" stat introduction, if you like.) Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:47
  • 19
    I see nothing in the new code of conduct that says anything about quality. I don't understand why whenever we talk about being more welcoming the claim is made that welcoming means to accept crappy questions. It doesn't. It just means that questions should be closed without being unfriendly. You know what makes me feel unwelcome? This whole insisting that being nice can't go together with keeping the quality up.
    – BDL
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:49
  • 11
    @BDL Wouldn't it be better to be a little unfriendly, but have the author improve the question, instead of just silently closing it? How is closing the question without any explanation welcoming?
    – mag_zbc
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:51
  • 42
    @yivi Just to be sure - you're aware that Elbonia is a fictional country, from the Dilbert comics? Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:54
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    @S.L.Barth So sad. I will leave all my comments here so my shame is public for all eternity. In my defense, I have only slept three hours... but I was thinking of Estonia. So, so sad.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:56
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    @yivi Don't worry, happens to the best. Your concern does you credit. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:01
  • 56
    @BDL Regardless of the intention of the rule changes, the effect has been a chilling one because any comment flagged as "unwelcoming" has apparently been handled as such by moderators regardless of how unwelcoming it is or not, with the result that legitimately useful/good faith comments have been removed. The end result is detrimental to quality.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 12:04
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    @IanKemp: "any comment flagged as "unwelcoming" has apparently been handled as such by moderators regardless of how unwelcoming it is or not," [citation needed]. Specifically, the notion that "any comment" is handled that way. There was a post here yesterday by a user who tried to do this but was declined twice. So it doesn't seem like the mods are doing what you're saying they're doing. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 13:21
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    @mag_zbc If we just had a closed banner that says "CLOSED, THIS ISN'T UP TO PAR WITH OUR STANDARDS", I would agree. But there's not one close reason that doesn't have a nice explanatory text that helps you figure out what your question is missing. And most of the time, when people come to meta to say "MY POST IS DOWNVOTED WITH NO EXPLANATIONS", they have at least one (often multiple) comments explaining what the question could be edited with. They just disregard it....
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 13:38
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    Why in conversations about this topic is it always binary? Are there really no points on the curve between "pristine utopia of quality" and "eternal cesspool of garbage"? I mean, certainly one understands the incentives but you're casting things in what seems to be rather absolute terms. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 15:39
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    Stack Overflow, as a place for professional programmers, is dead I was pretty sure I heard the sound of SO circling the drain when the Help and Improvement queue came out. Its pretty bad when the smart kids have to answer the questions and ask / rewrite them. If you are not smart enough or cant be bothered to take the time to compose a cogent post, why should anyone read it let alone answer it? (ESL not included). Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 15:49
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    I completely agree. SO is overreacting to a blog post of someone who also overreacted. Enough of the faux outrage from people getting free help from experts.
    – Jeff
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 17:15
  • 52
    @BDL Because the main reason anyone feels "unwelcome" is because they made low quality posts and someone told them so. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/362532/1394393 The claims of racism and sexism SO leveraged in its blog were utter nonsense. Besides this, SO demonstrably doesn't believe that using nice words at every possible moment is the correct way to address problems (meta.stackoverflow.com/q/342440/1394393), meaning that the entire push is disingenuous. The only thing we can actually change to be more "welcoming" is to drop criticism and quality control.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:43
149

The new comment flag option "It's not relevant" is actually worse for this. This is gonna lead to a metric ton of invalid comment flags.

"It's not relevant" is incredibly subjective. One could argue answers in comments don't fall under that, yet they're supposed to be discouraged because they bypass the voting system.

A user who just wants their solution and cares about nothing else could see any clarification requests or critiques of their question as "It's not relevant". An answerer could see criticism of their answer they don't agree with as "It's not relevant".

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    When was this flag option introduced/renamed, and how will moderators handle it?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:44
  • 9
    @CodeCaster As to 1) Yesterday (see here) as to 2) no idea. The post I linked mentions that this was done ahead of the new CoC taking full force when there'll be 2 distinct categories for r/a flags on comments.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:46
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    A -really- odd choice of label. Now mods are going to have to judge relevance? Seems like the usual "instantly delete" choice that is basically to be implied as "needs to go, but not rude/abusive".
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:47
  • 2
    If it's a comment about a technical clarification, I can't see how the mods can be expected to know what is, or is not, relevant, (in general - sure there are mods who have plenty skills on some language tags, but not all will be covered). Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:53
  • 1
    @Dukeling Again, it is subjective. Is "why the downvote? If you don't comment I can't know what's wrong" a relevant comment? In my opinion, it is generally uncalled for, and best kept away. The struggle is real.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 10:35
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    @Magisch we can now see who's flagged a comment - meta.stackexchange.com/a/313155/59303 - so if it's the post owner flagging we can double check to see if they are trying to stifle dissent or not.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 10:57
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    @ChrisF My answer didn't (or didn't intend to) insinuate that mods would abide that kind of conduct, but that a lot more invalid flags would be raised as a result of the confusing wording.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:06
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    @E_net4 Uncalled for, not constructive and too chatty, but still relevant, although perhaps my definition of "relevant" is too close to "related". Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:45
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    "Metric ton of invalid comment flags": only if mods don't delete on sight anything with a flag. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:23
  • 1
    not-relevant means more comments can stay. If they're discussing the post, it means they can stay. If they're discussing flying kites, then they go.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:14
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    @Magisch I actually have no idea lol I'm not sure what it means... must remember to find out
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:17
  • 1
    @E_net4: "Why the downvote?" is predominantly useless for the current downvote (as the downvoter has already left and probably won't come back since he's not tagged). However, I do think it has value for future downvoters, as it helps them understand that adding a comment to the downvote is helpful.
    – Flater
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:51
  • 2
    @Flater These matters inevitably intertwine, because it's a major reason why feedback on downvotes is not mandatory. No levels of moderation are going to be enough for hit-and-run hostility tactics employed by certain users. As you might imagine, unfairly negative and hostile comments, regardless of being from users to OPs or from OPs to other users, can hurt even after they are gone. But there is a clear difference here: while OPs could be just receiving terse, brusque feedback on their content, curators are not given anything positive back. They are bitten for an attempt to feed them.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:33
  • 2
    @E_net4 'hand-guidance systems towards question improvements' lol, sounds like SO curators being used as sock puppets to write questions:) Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:11
  • 1
    @Flater I don't think we asserted that. And feedback is still given, although not every time. Because every once in a while, someone refuses to read How to Ask because they don't want to be told they are asking bad questions. And this part is the one that feels more actionable: we must make our users ask better questions from the start.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 7:59
36

The inverse perspective of Ian Kemp's answer (from a person positively impacted by you, the experts) below.


As a user who predominately asks questions instead of answering, this is terrifying (okay, I may be exaggerating a bit..). But quite honestly, the only reason I am able to be as efficient as I am, and have progressed as much as I have in the past 5 years as a developer are the experts on Stack Overflow. I would be crushed to find that the majority of experts are leaving because of bad user interactions and overzealous(?) moderators deleting comments that are ultimately useful.

As a newbie who relies on StackOverflow Q/A to be #1 Google result for any given programming-related search, I beseech the moderators and those flagging to carefully consider the impact of their actions and their effects on the community. Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange as a whole are my most-frequented sites for development of my own knowledge of the universe, and the sole reason this is possible is because SO/SE attracts knowledgeable people! These are the people who should not be driven away from the site(s)...

Obviously there is a bottom line to keep people visiting and get page views and such, but I wouldn't be an active user if I didn't always find interesting, thought-provoking and helpful information/advice on Stack Exchange. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the asks-and-reads-more-than-answers category of users who rely on knowledgable people like @CodeCaster.

I can't tell you how many times I've come to "oh duh, of course I should have mentioned that or clarified that point" because of someone like you guys dropping a comment. And I never feel upset or annoyed that a comment like that was made, because it helped me improve my question as well as my ability to formulate new ones in the future. My first few questions on SO were absolute crap but I feel that I've come a long way to better express myself and my problem(s) in the Q/A because of the effort you put in to help me with that. I've grown as a person because of you.

So please, flaggers and moderators, consider how you impact the community as a whole when you flag and delete. And experts, please know that there are people like me who are incredibly appreciative of your time and effort spent on crafting beautifully-written and informative answers, as well as time you spend helping the OP clarify and refine their question.


And to answer the question... no, don't stop commenting. The behavioral issue is not with you, the commenter - it's the flaggers and people dealing with the flags. I'm not sure how to improve the system to make flagging and moderating more efficient and less prone to human error (I'm not sure that it can be at this point...), but the fact that comments like yours (OP/experts trying to help) get deleted when they clearly shouldn't be is just sad. And it does show lack of conscious on the part of those getting the comments deleted to the broader effect of their actions on the community - not only direct impact to the experts, but to those who rely on their knowledge every day. People need to be more conscious of that in general.

2
  • I should not feel bad to say that it sucks helping free loaders that come here looking to have someone else do their work. Why should we treat them like royalty when we worked very hard to get the knowledge we have and they want to use it for free, and are probably H1B's to boot taking our job. If the talent leaves, they have no help, works like socialism and money. Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 23:39
  • 2
    Can everyone stop being offended or offensive for for a while? As my grandmother said; If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything, The intensity and argument over the same topics seem to be no more than an excuse to trade "witty" insults and relieve tempers. It's exhausting. People need to learn to walk away. Needing to have the last word is not a character strength.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 12:14
-9

Comments are supposed to request clarifications and suggest improvements. They're the gentlest tool available, and sometimes you need a hammer made of sterner stuff than rubber to knock a problem in place. Comments are also meant to be transient - and have always been, by design.

The problem though with assuming that comments are not transient and somehow some comments are worth keeping around is - well, someone needs to make that decision. Sometimes more than once. It's not always the same person, and there's often a better place to put that information. Over time I've come to a suspicion that more or less, we're all doing comments wrong, and that some recent experiments - that they should be restricted to requests for clarification and such might work better.

As for comments suggesting fixes -

You're leading the horse to water. You can't always get the equine hydrated. If there's major issues that an OP is refusing to fix, and you can find an appropriate reason, close. Otherwise downvote. There's no point with yelling at a user in comments, or otherwise getting worked up. If the question is bad, rather than getting angry at the user, and posting a comment that's, well less than nice, just vote appropriately.

As for no longer needed flags. Flags are a request for attention. While in most cases and sites, these are relatively easy - SO... kind of has a problem of scale. I've actually suggested encouraging people to clean up after themselves as a solution.

If it's an extremely good comment that somehow rises above its humble roots as a 3rd class citizen, and acts as a shining beacon of truth and light... ehh. Hopefully it's left alone. Otherwise, might be worth having a quiet word with a moderator about it. Those are rare, in my opinion.

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    Sure, it's entirely appropriate to vote to close a question that has problems that merit closure. That's not a reason to delete any comments on that post with more specific information on what the post does wrong, and how it can be improved. Likewise, that people can downvote such a post isn't a reason to delete such comments. A comment shouldn't need to be "a shining beacon of truth and light" to not get deleted. Just your typical comment explaining how a question or answer could be made better, of the type that happens thousands of times a day, is fine, and shouldn't be deleted.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:06
-13

I agree with your assessment, but I'd lean the other way. Instead of banning comments, I'd simply redirect them to a place they belong yet stay away from the pure Q&A aspect of the site. The chat room isn't cutting it.

I am aware that I personally skirt the line of comment discussions more than I should. That doesn't mean I don't understand the intention of SO/SE to remain QA-focused and not become a discussion board.

However, I do see value in a reasonable discussion on some particular topics. Not to use it as an ongoig chat, but some issues need deeper diagnosis, e.g. when they are rooted in a multi-layered misunderstanding. Some problems are XYZABCDE problems. You can usually only get from E to X using repeated probing, which is currently impossible without having a comment chain.

The current setup is to post a rule ("no discussion in comments"), which is enforced subjectively by moderators. I don't think the current setup is working.

  • Discussion threads only get removed when they get excessive. A short discussion thread never gets removed and therefore implicitly suggests to users that the posted comments were acceptable.
  • There are cases where the the first comment in a discussion thread was a valid comment to the answer, but it spawned a subsequent discussion in and of itself. When the thread gets removed, the first comment is often removed as well.
    • This makes it highly likely that someone else is going to post the same comment again (unaware of the removed comment), thus repeating the cycle.
    • I think it's realistic to say that most people are not going to browse through an extended chat history to check if their intended comment has been posted before. Even if we agree that they should, that doesn't mean they will do so.
  • The current rule can often be abused (intentionally or not) when the poster wishes to remove the feedback.
    • The current zero tolerance discussion policy allows for people to (disingenuously) call out valid feedback as unnecessary discussion, in the hopes of an errant mod agreeing with them. At best, they get what they want; at worst, they've likely sparked a debate which will end up getting deleted anyway.
    • Repeatedly refuting a flaw in your answer, especially when either ignoring the comments or dodging the topic, inherently grows the thread so it gets deleted (including the first comment which pointed out a relevant flaw/error in the answer).
    • I've seen cases where people invalidate received feedback with the deadend "post your own answer then" or "no discussions are allowed" argument, which distracts from the feedback by implicitly suggesting that they are correct but simply can't tell you because it would break the rules.
    • If posters are able to have feedback removed from sight by filibustering, and we agree that this is a correct system, then we should simply give posters the ability to remove comments to their own posts. I don't think this is a good decision, but it's at least better than giving them the option to inescapable cause a comment deletion which requires mod attention.
  • In the case of XYZABCDE problems, the current system prevents us from actually drilling down to the core of a problem. It only allows simple question/answer statements and makes it very hard to challenge underlying false assumptions that the OP (or answerer) has built their question (or answer) on. Sometimes, it's nigh impossible to ask for clarification (= comment) without suggesting a counter solution (= answer); especially if you suspect that the OP simply wasn't aware of the counter solution.
    • If you write a question comment "Why did you do A instead of B?", people are liable to respond "you should post B as an answer then".
    • If you post B as an answer, people are liable to respond "but OP is asking about A. You can't know that he actually needs B instead of A!".
  • The sheer volume of comment discussions strongly suggests that a significant part of the community sees value in having the discussion.

Redirecting comments to a place they belong.

I think there's a very simple solution to address a lot of the mentioned issues. If we adapt to a tree-style comment chain (think: Reddit) where comments are collapsed by default, then everyone gets what they want:

  • Q&A purists either ignore all comments, or only focus on top-level comments. They don't click through the hierarchy.
  • Feedback to comments exists, but is only visible to those who go looking for it.
  • The hierarchical nature of the comments makes it easier to look if someone else posted your feedback already (compare to reading a flat list like the chat/comment history)
  • Only people who are interested in reading/writing lengthy discussions will drill down to a comment level of lengthy discussions.
  • The mods don't need to police the comment threads as much (at least in terms of assessing if something is a discussion and being expected to clean them up)
  • The chat room can still be used for chatting. Comment discussions are different from chatting. When they are on-topic for a posted question, they are essentially a back-and-forth Q&A.
  • Optional: while trees are collapsed by default, we could allow for a system where sufficiently upvoted child comments are made visible by default. This is similar to us currently allowing some meaningful responses to comments.
1
  • 1
    I agree that valid comment discussions are very different than chatting. Many times in order to write an answer you need clarification. If you try to write an answer without all the information and asking for clarification people will start down voting it even though your intent is to create a full answer. If you like answering potentially interesting questions with very good answers this whole system is very frustrating. Also I hate the idea that I'm supposed to go chat privately in real time with a stranger.
    – Elin
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 20:24
-16

Controversial statement of the week:

Stop commentating. It's not accomplishing what you think it is.

Here's why I feel strongly about this. Comments are genuinely the red-headed stepchild of the entire network. They're given this otherworldly status and importance on the site as a whole from every level of participant, but they severely lack any sort of infrastructure or ecosystem to support this otherworldly status.

To spell it out, we use comments for:

  • clarifying questions
  • remarks
  • feedback
  • banter

...most of which has some valuable place on the site.

However, the only real stated value for comments is in the clarifying questions aspect. The site just allows us to abuse comments to fill the other niches we want it to.

Explicitly, to your example...

I commented something along the lines of:

Please read [ask] and show what you have tried. This is a simple indexof+substring or regex operation.

...such a comment is easily "feedback" at best, since the desired message (please show what you've tried) is buried under twelve feet of cement by the impulsive follow-up remark "simple".


Suffice it to say, but comments are not the magic tool or panacea we want them to be. Adding feedback to a question asking them to improve the situation

does not help

and we need to stop lying to ourselves. The only real tools at our disposal to get the point across that their question needs to improve are downvotes and closure votes, and we need to be as generous with them as we are with commentating.

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    @CodeCaster: Will it? That has not been my experience. At least, not in the tags I patrol. But then, I don't go to the tags with the heaviest populations. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:20
  • 6
    @CodeCaster Assuming the purpose of the downvote was to make it scored negative, sure, but if your purpose is just to indicate you find it not useful or low quality... it serves it's purpose regardless of whoever else votes on it. Not voting because it's gonna be reversed is counterintuitive. It's why people upvoting to reverse it is a problem.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:20
  • 1
    @Makoto: Exactly what issue is it that we're supposed to be shouting about? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:22
  • 10
    @NicolBolas: Take your pick - the fact that user moderation is ineffective since we can't reliably moderate poor content, the fact that duplication tracking is so hard because there's no support for it, the fact that actions taken (e.g. downvotes/close votes) still get us branded as being "mean" somehow when all we're trying to do is improve the site, the fact that the new CoC is attempting to codify a community and culture change towards us being "friendly" and "welcoming" without any real clear definition of if that means we're going to have to comment every time we downvote/close...
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:24
  • 1
    @NicolBolas: I'm sure there's a ton more. This is easily the nth question on comments that's cropped up in the last few months yet we haven't really heard a lot on how this is going to be "fixed", or if it's being considered at all by The Powers That Beℱ.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:25
  • 10
    @Makoto: "The only real tools at our disposal to get the point across that their question needs to improve are downvotes and closure votes" There's evidence that this doesn't in fact "get the point across" about anything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't down/close vote. But you shouldn't do it based on the belief that it's some kind of teaching tool. It's merely a way to get rid of bad content, not to help people make good content. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:35
  • 3
    @NicolBolas In the flags you patrol I really doubt it, but in more popular less low level tags like Javascript I've seen this. You both are right, but you are getting worse questions askers in general in PHP than C++, Vulkan and GLSL, the barrier to entry to even know to ask a question about those is much much higher.
    – Krupip
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:16
  • 3
    @Harald: The system failed you, not the community. We shouldn't be required to explain why your post was downvoted or closed; it should be self-explanatory.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:47
  • 4
    @Harald: You take voting too personally. We're not explicitly shouting at you. We're only remarking on your content. That disconnect leads to perceptions of "rudeness" and "hostility" which, in reality, existed before we voted on the question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:03
  • 3
    @Harald: You're making my point here; this is where the system needs to pick up the slack. You're asking the community to explain what went wrong when the system has more than enough information to convey this on our behalf. Asking community members to explain what happened or what went wrong simply doesn't scale, no matter how you want to stretch it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:11
  • 7
    @Harald: "Even if it is not personal, it does not help." Doesn't help who? Voting helps users avoid poor questions. Closevotes stop people from answering bad questions. Both of these help the site. "There is no chance that a question is actually good, but just rubbed someone the wrong way?" If that's the case, then only one person will downvote it. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:29
  • 4
    Okay @Harald; I'm at my breaking point. What would you say to a question like this? Bear in mind that we get thousands of questions just like this every day with someone posting a question which is impossible for any of us to answer or do anything with. You say downvoting without comment is unwelcoming. How would you welcome them instead?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 20:13
  • 2
    @Harald moderator interaction? The only people who closed the question are users, not diamond mod. It needed the same kind of interaction from me than it would if I had commented. I don't see how that's relevant. Also, your idea is good, until you go in and implement it. I, for one, am tired of the ad hominem attacks thrown my way when I try to be welcoming and guide people to write better messages. It seems like I have to be welcoming, not just of new users, but of their crappy, unresearched questions, their abusive responses, and the myriads of insults they feel like throwing my way.
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 13:41
  • 3
    @KevinB Yes, if we lived in a world where everyone voted on every post based on how useful they think it is, then it wouldn't be problematic to downvote a post you think isn't useful. The problem is lots of people will upvote negatively scored posts that they see that wouldn't have upvoted if the score was positive. They're upvoting to overcompensate for a downvote, not because they think the post is useful. Because of that behavior, you're often helping a bad answer by downvoting it, because of this overcompensation. That it shouldn't happen doesn't change the fact that it does.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:35
  • 4
    @KevinB I already don't upvote bad posts just because they have a negative score. That doesn't stop other people from doing it. They don't notice my lack of action and take it as a signal that they should do the same.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:39
-18

For some time now I have thought that this is the only way to salvage SO. And not by relying on our self-discipline to refrain from commentating. That won't work. I think we can all agree that the comments asking for clarification escalating to conflict will keep coming. No, simply remove the ability to comment on questions.

If a question cannot readily be answered, and we cannot comment on it, it will be downvoted and left with no answer.

Some askers will realise there is a problem with their question and work out how to improve it. Perhaps the majority will bemoan the lack of answers and head elsewhere. But they won't feel that SO was rude, just that their question was too hard for us.

But that's not really a problem. None of the experts here will have been drawn in to a fools errand to help an uncooperative asker to ask well. Conflict will have been avoided.

Ask yourself, how often does a really bad question get edited and improved to be considered good after guidance from comments? In my experience it is less than 1 in 25. That's a terrible hit rate.

So, remove the ability to comment on questions and I feel that the site will overall be better.

17
  • 1
    eh, i do think the site overall would be better in terms of less conflicts in comments (obviously removing comments would remove all conflicts in comments) but... it would also result in a lot of questions that currently get well answered... not getting well answered. Sure, it's because the question wasn't clear, but without comments we can't express that or tell the user what we need to provide a good answer. You'd certainly see an increase in NAA flags from answers trying to do what comments do.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:27
  • 1
    @Kevin I accept that we might not be able to help some people that we can help now. But we spend so much time trying to help those that don't want to be helped, how do you know when you are going to get an asker that is receptive to being helped? I just think that we have to give up something good in order to extinguish a pain that is so much greater. Not I draw the distinction between users that are happy to have dialog, and accept constructive guidance (happy to be helped), and the unreceptive who want an answer now to the question that they asked whose flaws they can't accept. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:32
  • I don't disagree... but there are people willing to do so, why not let them? flagging problematic comments seems to be working fine from my pov.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:34
  • 1
    @Kevin It's the people willing to comment to guide askers to poor questions that lead to the conflict. Self restraint has clearly not worked. That's my opinion. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:42
  • 10
    I'd hate to lose the ability to get a question clarified so that i can properly close it as a dupe rather than having to rely on getting 4 other people to vote unclear.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:42
  • 1
    It wouldn't much matter if you couldn't close it. It would have negative votes and no answers. It would be cleaner up in due course. I accept that we would lose something. But I think that the gain would outweigh the loss. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:49
  • 6
    We must destroy StackOverflow to save it. Or sump'n like that... Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 3:11
  • @Bob It's already completely broken though isn't it? Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 6:15
  • I feel that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But if we raised the bar for commenting on one's own post, perhaps? Or make it impossible to @-reply to another unless you have, say, 15 rep? Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 6:58
  • 1
    @DavidHeffernan - I was being sarcastic. SO is far from perfect, but that describes everything. You can't make a site just for "professional programmers" because that would require SO to define what a "professional programmer" is. Someone working as a programmer? Systems analysts? Business analysts? How about DBA's - they don't code (at least ours don't) but they're kind of related..? Students? Managers? (OK - we can agree - no managers - unless they code - or maybe not..?) And how do you enforce this? If you don't want to answer the questions that are asked, Just Say Nope and move on. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 11:18
  • 1
    @Bob That's exactly what will happen, to the detriment of the site. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 11:38
  • If there are no comments, there would be no way of improving questions or answers either, short of violently editing or turning it into wikipedia. We'd lose a quality assurance tool and the site would therefore get much worse, not better.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 9:57
  • @Lundin That's if you believe that improving questions by leaving comments works. My experience is that the hit rate is incredibly low. Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 10:25
  • @DavidHeffernan Perhaps it doesn't often work for questions, but it often works fine for answers.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 10:48
  • @Lundin And my suggestion is to remove the ability to comment on questions, but retain it for answers. I think that the difference between comments on questions and answers speaks volumes to the underlying problem the site has with quality. Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 10:54
-38

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. You're treating comment deletion (appropriate or not) as though you're being sanctioned in some way. You're not.

You commented. The OP didn't agree with it. So... what more do you want? Do you think that the continued presence of your comment will make them agree with it? I rather doubt it. So if the OP responded negatively, then your comment is only useful as a notation to others that someone thinks the question needs additional information.

Is that information critical to leave attached to that question?

I'm not saying that removing the comment was right or wrong. But it's not an indication that the comment itself is unwanted. It's an indication that the OP has decided not to comply, so the comment serves no further use.

17
  • 66
    I strongly disagree. The OP has decided not to comply != the comment serves no further use. I think that one of the ways new users learn how the system works and get used to it is by reading this kind of comments. On the other hand, when the comment gets removed, we can't blame them for thinking that the question has nothing wrong as the OP said.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:01
  • 3
    Comments shouldn't just be directed at the OP, you should always consider how the wider audience will read them. I expect my comments to stick around forever, and if they're no longer relevant then I'll delete them. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:02
  • 2
    @MarkRansom: Comments have never worked that way. Just look around MSO: the expectation of comments is that they're supposed to be subject to deletion. And it has been that way since the beginning. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:03
  • 19
    I disagree. If the comment is left undeleted, it will prevent others from having to make the-same or similar comment if the questions needs code to show some work or show which part of the code is causing the issue. It will also get up-votes therefore making the OP rethink about his/her reply and add code to the question. Once the code is added the comment can now be deleted.
    – Programmer
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:46
  • 14
    Comments are the most important means of spreading culture on the site. (It's why everyone is so keen on getting rid of totally negative/unproductive ones.) That's why they have relevance beyond the interaction with the OP, just like the question and its answers do. It's all for future readers as much as for the present ones.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:10
  • 3
    @Pekka웃: By that reasoning, we shouldn't delete comments that requested information that was provided. After all, they still communicate that a user requested certain information, which was later provided. That's part of "spreading culture". Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:27
  • 8
    @NicolBolas: Everyone mouths the mantra of "comments can be deleted at any time for any reason", but in practice that expectation is not there. Compare with the very similar wording found in a great many website agreements that say "we can delete your account/remove your game achievements/terminate your license to use our software/whatever for any reason, or no reason." In other words, it reads like standard slightly-slimy exception-handling legalese that no one really expects to be routinely triggered. And indeed most comments aren't deleted. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 5:58
  • 3
    The information that a particular comment is actively not complied with seems like wickedly valuable input for future commenters who can then choose to not make the same suggestions; comments become obsolete when they have been complied with. But it cannot be ignored that it indeed has always been communicated that comments can be deleted at any time (which does not say anything about how frequently it will happen, @NathanTuggy) so it cannot be berated that this documented freedom is exercised. I dislike it and will upvote any suggestion favouring change, but it's just the way it is.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 7:27
  • @Gimby: If Twitter deleted your account because somebody got in a snit with you (and the Twitter ToS make it abundantly clear that they absolutely have that legal right), you might well be upset with them and complain. Saying "well they told you ahead of time they might do that" is technically, legally true, but unhelpful, and suggesting there was a real expectation of that is dubious in the extreme. In other words, the ephemerality of comments is largely a legal fiction. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:08
  • @NathanTuggy that is comparing apples and oranges, it'd be more to the point if you take the example of removing a tweet. Then all of a sudden the impact is a lot lower.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:27
  • 11
    Comments are very useful to future visitors. Deleting them means that the same discussion will happen again and again, which just wastes everyone's time. Comments that suggest improvements are vital, especially when they haven't been incorporated in the answer. I cannot count the amount of times that a comment has held some crucial information. I don't understand why deleting comments is seen as so important, when the site already has great ways of handling long comment chains (i.e. only showing the most upvoted comments). Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:30
  • @Gimby: So, if Twitter randomly removed 15% of your tweets, how would that come across? Sure, the degree of outrage depends on the overall importance of what was deleted. But the existence of expectation doesn't. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:43
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy: "In other words, the ephemerality of comments is largely a legal fiction." Except that it isn't because they frequently do get deleted. Whatever expectations you have in you head are not borne out in how SO works. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 13:16
  • @NathanTuggy The idea that comments are designed to be ephemeral really is inherently true. But, as described in detail here the problem is that it's not a valid justification for deleting any comment without any other reason. The fact that the comment will ideally, eventually become obsolete, doesn't mean that you can delete any comment, because that comment might not be obsolete yet.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:31
  • "I think you're blowing this out of proportion. You're treating comment deletion (appropriate or not) as though you're being sanctioned in some way. You're not." You're right: the whole community is being sanctioned. Every comment of this form, when deleted, is a drop in the ocean of loss. We all lose. Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 11:26
-70

I deleted the comment, as I believed it was no longer needed. It had been read by several people and noted. It serves no purpose to remain under the question. We cannot force people to make changes to their posts. We can only make suggestions.

If the post is off topic and the OP has ignored requests to improve it, the post should be closed. So vote to close it.

40
  • 75
    No, the comment hasn't served its purpose, as the OP ignored it and it was removed so others couldn't read it as well.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:15
  • 15
    The poem doesn't need to be longer / the message doesn't need to be stronger / Only this I want to say: / I think that comment should stay. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:20
  • 75
    If mods delete comments whenever there's a slight hint of friction because it's the easiest option, then you answered the question in the OP: yes, we should stop commenting altogether.
    – user247702
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:22
  • 57
    So the consensus is: you (as in: you, the moderators, not you personally) get a shitload of comment flags on any given day, and to prevent exhaustion, friction, discussion or whatever, when in doubt, you delete. That's not really inviting to put much effort in commenting. I'm not saying I'm particularly proud of that comment, or that it couldn't have been written in a more constructive way, but again, my question is about the pattern and not this particular comment.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:23
  • 28
    I tend to agree with @CodeCaster here, sorry. Comments are often seen as something minor, not relevant, and not useful, but we forget it takes time and effort to write comments. And when such comments are deleted without thought just due to one single flag, that is not nice, and a good reason to simply stop commenting. (To be clear: I'm not talking about the single comment in this question, but in general. Plus, I don't blame the specific moderator deleting comments in response to flags. I'm complaining about the system as a whole) Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:24
  • 5
    This answer was really not intended to be serious. It was just some fun. I'm sorry it's causing issue.. I can edit it.. Comments are extremely difficult in this political climate, it's like we're all walking on egg shells. Don't shoot the messenger people
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:27
  • 13
    @YvetteColomb nah - keep it going. May as well have some fun during SO twighlight years.. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:31
  • 12
    ... by which I meant ' riddled with vampires' Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 11:34
  • 11
    "there was nothing wrong with your comment. It was helpful. The issue is - there's so much friction in places and when people start flagging comments, it's sometimes just easier from the mod end to delete them." - if deletion is the easiest solution in this case, this is a systemic issue. The easy solution should be to not take any action, as in, skip the flag. That's what reviewers in every single review queue are told they should do with cases which are not clear. Why does this guidance suddenly change to "just delete it" for the mod-only comment flag queue?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:03
  • 6
    My understanding of comments is that they are made to help clarify and improve questions. I am pretty sure it isn't what you mean, but the way this is written makes me think someone could post a crappy but on topic question, and comments to improve it wouldn't be welcomed because it has an answer.
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:14
  • 13
    "If the question is off topic, vote to close it. It's time to stop arguing with edge cases or hypotheticals. It's either on topic or it's not." Hardly! The number of debates about whether something fits SE's nebulous rules shows that whether something is on topic or not is often highly subjective. Just because you have made a decision doesn't mean it's a clear-cut black-and-white choice ;) Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:20
  • 12
    @MarkRotteveel We all have long ago accepted that comments are ephemeral and can be deleted at any time and for any reason. That, though, in and of itself, does not relieve us of our right to question the decision to actually do so in specific cases. Otherwise, honestly, you may as well just remove the comment feature altogether because if "can be deleted" becomes "will almost always be deleted, almost immediately" there remains pretty much no point in having them in the first place. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 12:23
  • 36
    Nice poem, even though I disagree 😁 I've long thought it's time to revisit the "comments are for deletion anyway" mantra. So many comments clearly contain valuable information that can't be incorporated into an answer. Good, productive comments can take as much time to craft as do good answers, and I for one am not willing to invest that time if comment deletionism is set to become the norm.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 13:05
  • 5
    @MarkRotteveel In what way is prompting a Stack Overflow question-asker to include problem-solving evidence in their question not of value? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:26
  • 12
    @MarkRotteveel I cannot comprehend how you've read it that way. Perhaps you forgot to assume good faith, or you missed out a few words Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:53

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