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TL; DR

Basically there's an increase of people flagging comments as unkind when there's nothing wrong with them. A comment saying your question is a duplicate is not rude. So please stop it.

Background

I've mentioned something similar before on Meta Comments asking for clarification or an MCVE are not rude/abusive. That was in May 2018, but clearly the opening up of flag privileges to lower rep users needs some addressing.

I suspected there was an increase in flagging, and was concerned about uninformed or nefarious so asked Can we have some statistics on the potential change in rate of comment flags?. The answer was conclusive, yes indeed there had been an increase in flagging and also an increase in the percentage of declined flag rates.

Update:
For those who may not be aware. There are no flag suspensions on comment flags. People can use all their comments flags for the day and have all of them declined and come the next day and start it over again. This is a fact that (since posting this) I don't think many people are aware of. So, I've asked this on Meta Stack Exchange.
Can we introduce comment flag bans as we have for posts flags?
If our satellite communities don't want it, I'll ask for it on our site (as we have a gazillion comment flags and it will probably solve much of this problem).

The Evidence

All rude/unfriendly comment flags on all sites since March, by week

enter image description here

Percentage of rude/unfriendly comment flags marked helpful since March, by week

enter image description here

From the image above, clearly people knew how to use comment flags prior to the first event (mentioned below), as indicated by arrows 1 and 2. Arrows 3 and 4 show a decline in helpful flags, which also coincided with the new users privilege to flag comments on their own posts. We need to follow arrow 4, which may reveal a trend over time.

Cuttin up the first graph, the image below shows an increase in flags on Stack Overflow, so the inference would be the decline in flags may be related to new users not knowing how to use or abusing the comment flag system.

Difference between increase in Stack Overflow flag rates vs rest of network flag rates

enter image description here
we need the magic of Shog to give us SO only data, but it gives us an idea - so we can only assume until Shog (sorry Shog) can provide us with definitive data on flag decline rates for SO only

Site Events

Timeline of some significant events that have affected activity on the site

Unfriendly and Rude flags Carry Consequences

Unfriendly and Rude flags that are marked helpful carry consequences. A few of them will raise an auto mod flag for mods to check out a user's activity. These flags stay on a person's history as red flags (yeh sounds odd to me too).

System flaw

Users and mods don't need a bulk of unkind flags on their posts raising auto mod flags from comments posted years ago. Mods are more interested in how users are behaving lately not 8 years ago. This is more of a system flaw than user flagging flaw, but worth mentioning and discussing.

If In Doubt Flag as No Longer Needed or Raise a Mod Flag

If there is any doubt about the status of a comment use the "No Longer Needed" Flag or raise a "Custom Mod" flag explaining why you think it should be deleted. These types of flags are more likely to be marked helpful.

Poor Flag Examples

To give some examples of the types of flags I'm seeing that are misguided at best. Note all these flags were declined as unfriendly or abusive, but the comments have been deleted, as they're no longer needed in each circumstance (the post was deleted or the comment was no longer needed). Don't' get me wrong, there's plenty of disgusting comments out there and comments wrapped with sarcasm or nastiness that really is not warranted. But that's not the focus here.

The nice to your face, but flag you in the back

The following comment thread:

enter image description here

Had these flags:

enter image description here
enter image description here

The unfriendly duplicate flag

enter image description here

The unkind your question doesn't belong here feedback flag

enter image description here
this comment not only is polite, but gives the user the steps to take to repost elsewhere.

The archaeological comment dig

People browsing old posts or using scripts will unearth all sort of comments from years ago and flag them. Unkind or rude comment flags carry consequences, so if a comment isn't obviously unkind or rude, the flag will be declined. Instead flag as no longer needed.

Also the culture of the site has changed. What was acceptable 8 years ago may not be acceptable today. It's not black and white. If in doubt flag as no longer needed.

enter image description here

See this example of a borderline comment from years ago. Flagged as no longer needed and marked helpful. This is a more appropriate workflow.

enter image description here

The I cannot understand the reasoning behind the flag flag

enter image description here

It takes two to tango

One thing that I'm also noticing is some people will comment "vigorously" under a post and when the OP finally snaps they will flag that comment. I tend to look at those comment flags within the context of the comment thread. Less if sometimes more. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". People cannot be forced to take our advice. Leave one or two comments and move on.

What this Post Isn't About

This post isn't intended to get people worked up about the new UX/UI, welcoming blogs, new users, crappy posts, the challenge of having to be polite to people who annoy us (let's face it most people annoy me most of the time, I even annoy myself). We also need Shog to verify the assumptions/conclusions reached from the data above re: new users flags causing increase in decline ratio.

The Question

This is really to put it out there to try and educate people on comment flagging, how the flags are supposed to work. Posting here will raise awareness to the small percentage that read meta. What can we do to get flag use cases out there to people who probably aren't reading meta?

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  • 20
    I doubt we can substantially increase the ratio of correct flags through education. Flagging requires no reputation, nor does it require one to follow the tour, or look up any description, and that's by design. If a newbie is annoyed by a comment and sees a nice flag next to it, and then a description pops up telling them they can flag it as unneeded or as unkind, they're bound to go click on that, without really thinking about if it's appropriate and how these flags are handled. Unless we're willing to raise requirements for flagging (e.g. reading a help page), that won't change.
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 13:44
  • 2
    If they are flagging wrong can't mods send a message to advise? If that causes problems then maybe there needs to be some functionality implemented that allows a mod to speak with a user on a neutral basis without it causing a fuss behind the scenes. I appreciate that might cause a lot of work so just thinking out loud if you will.
    – Bugs
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 13:47
  • 9
    Great Post! Although I agree with your takeaway, that this flag is sometimes being used in the wrong situation, I'm not sure the second graph (percentage helpful) clearly indicates this. The drop in 'helpfulness' seems within random deviation. If it is real, what explains the similar drop back in May?
    – code11
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 13:48
  • 4
    Thank you for the archaeological comment dig section: I recently flagged a comment (something like: "Ignore that user, he doesn't know what he's talking about") as unkind and wondered why it got rejected (but deleted nevertheless). Now I understand: It was far too old...
    – honk
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:14
  • 2
    @honk yeh it puts me (as a mod) in a dilemma.. yeh it's rude, but it's so old.. they prob should be marked as helpful and then the auto flag later declined. It's my bad, being lazy as a mod and wanting to decrease workflow/workload. I'm not sure if I declined your flag btw
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:15
  • 13
    For people wondering why I'm so focused on the changes since the welcoming blog is: I became mod just before that and ever since, it felt like the goal posts have kept moving.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:45
  • 8
    @YvetteColomb It's true, you really stepped into the League of Moderators at one of the most difficult times I can imagine. Though I think you're doing a pretty good job, especially on your communication and getting ideas out there for the community to evaluate.
    – Davy M
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 17:57
  • 3
    @DavyM thanks for that. I'm trying hard to learn what people want and need from me as a mod. I can't please everyone that's for sure, But try to remain approachable. Even if someone doesn't like me, they should still be able to approach me, it costs far less energy wise to get along with people than not. My approach has matured also with my position and I'm far less reactive. Being stable makes the community feel safer around me and able to rely upon me. Maybe I take this mod thing too seriously, but I'm increasingly aware of the influence I have and feel responsible for using that wisely.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 18:08
  • 13
    Don't forget, by posting this here, you're preaching to the choir. If we are to enact any kind of meaningful change to these stats, the education would need to occur where the problem lies.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 18:25
  • 19
    Well this is both depressing and predictable. It's as if "feeling unwelcome" just meant "having your crap post subject to our quality control procedures" for many posters. Just as many of us argued.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 19:22
  • 3
    Shoddy moderation;) Commented Sep 8, 2018 at 7:44
  • 9
    Allow me one stupid idea: Would it help if the flag reasons were re-ordered to go from most likely to less likely? That would put no longer needed as the first option and abussive as the second to last (leaving the someting else at its current location). I can imagine that some of these flaggers simply clicked the first thing they got presented in the flag-dialog and for those NLN is a reasonable call.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 8, 2018 at 12:00
  • 3
    More and more the answer to Should we stop commenting altogether? Is "yes" Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:06
  • 4
    I see the whole pseudo welcome wagon fiasco backfiring horribly. Rather than saying anything at all to hand wavers, I see more DVS and fewer comments of any sort. They dont like DVs - their problem is URGENT, dont you know Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:13
  • 9
    I would greatly enjoy a weekly post showcasing amusing flag histories like this! Great read! Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 11:11

11 Answers 11

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My answer to your last question was primarily focused on volume - specifically, on how the volume of flags has varied over the past few months, possibly in connection with various events and system changes. But you did ask for a "helpful" percentage, and I provided it... And as you've observed, that percentage has dropped a bit.

So today, let's try & dig into that a bit. My goals here are as follows:

  • Focus specifically on Rude, Unwelcoming or Something Else comment flags raised on Stack Overflow during the month of August
  • Put that percentage in context (what does the drop mean in terms of total helpful flags?)
  • Identify specific contexts where problems are occurring (user class, flag type, comment type)

Let's start with...

Some raw numbers

First, let's re-run the query I used here for the month of August:

Overall comment stats

951,890 comments were created during August, of which 100,965 - just shy of 11% - have been deleted at the time I'm writing this. Those deletions break down as follows:

Reasons                                                               DeletedComments 
--------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- 
Self-deleted                                                          68338           
Automated deletion                                                    11807           
CommentNoLongerNeeded                                                 9968            
Moderator discretion                                                  8513            
CommentUnwelcoming                                                    954             
Comment Other                                                         335             
Comment Rude Or Offensive                                             292             
Comment Rude Or Offensive, CommentUnwelcoming                         50              
CommentNoLongerNeeded, CommentUnwelcoming                             46              
Comment Rude Or Offensive, CommentNoLongerNeeded                      15              
Comment Other, CommentUnwelcoming                                     7               
Comment Other, CommentNoLongerNeeded                                  4               
Comment Other, Comment Rude Or Offensive                              3               
Comment Rude Or Offensive, CommentNoLongerNeeded, CommentUnwelcoming  2               
Comment Other, Comment Rude Or Offensive, CommentUnwelcoming          1               

Now, this only looks at comments created in August; it's useful as context, but it doesn't tell us anything about flags on older comments or flags which were declined. So let's get some broad stats for those too:

Overall comment flag stats

34,676 comment flags were raised during August, of which 33,245 were marked Helpful. 33,053 of the flags were raised on comments that were later deleted - this is important to note, both because of cases where the flag would've been declined but then the comment later deleted for another reason... And for the cases where comments would later be undeleted, thus leaving a helpful flag on a visible comment. Those flags break down by type as follows:

Type                      FlagsCreated Helpful On comments which were deleted 
------------------------- ------------ ------- ------------------------------ 
Comment Rude Or Offensive 918          666     718                            
CommentUnwelcoming        2572         1922    2004                           
CommentNoLongerNeeded     30221        29999   29702                          
Comment Other             965          660     629                            

Couple of things worth digging into here:

  1. the Rude / Unwelcoming flags are the only categories where the comments are more likely to be deleted than the flags are to be marked helpful.
  2. "other" (currently named "Something Else" on the sites) is far and away the least likely flag to be marked Helpful.

We'll get back to those later. Next, let's separate out those numbers by context.

Just in time comment flag stats

The first subsection above looked at comments created in August; the second looked at flags created in August. What about flags raised in August on comments in August?

Type                      FlagsCreated Helpful On comments which were deleted 
------------------------- ------------ ------- ------------------------------ 
Comment Rude Or Offensive 766          580     603                            
CommentUnwelcoming        2003         1513    1502                           
CommentNoLongerNeeded     10723        10559   10282                          
Comment Other             646          428     397                            

The big difference here from the last table is a massive drop in the number of No Longer Needed flags - which stands to reason, as an awful lot of comments get less useful as time rolls on, so there's somewhat less need for them immediately. Of course... There are also folks who make a hobby of finding older comments to flag, so that feeds in here too.

A more subtle difference is that "Other" flags seem to be slightly more useful on contemporary comments. Not by a lot, but... Another reminder to dig into this later.

One more thing I'd like to get some broad numbers on before digging in though:

Comment flags by type of handler

There are five ways by which comment flags are normally "handled" - and only one of them can decline flags:

  1. Moderators can delete comments (helpful) or dismiss (decline) comment flags
  2. Moderators, privileged users, and post authors themselves can delete the post on which flagged comments reside, thus immediately marking the flags as helpful (without, strictly-speaking, deleting the comments themselves).
  3. If the author of a comment deletes it, any flags on that comment are marked helpful.
  4. The system will automatically delete a comment if it gets a certain number of flags, marking all those flags helpful in the process.
  5. The system will automatically delete a comment the first time it is flagged if the comment contains certain words or patterns - this instantly marks that flag as helpful.

(there are other ways for flags to be dismissed, but they're far less common)

So let's see how those break down for each type of flag for flags raised in August...

Type                      Handled by                               FlagsCreated Helpful 
------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ------------ ------- 
Comment Other             comment automatically deleted            1            1       
Comment Other             post deleted by vote                     2            2       
Comment Other             comment deleted by author                26           26      
Comment Other             post deleted by author                   26           26      
Comment Other             flag handled by moderator                872          567     
Comment Other             flagged comment deleted based on keyword 31           31      
Comment Other             post deleted by review                   7            7       
Comment Rude Or Offensive post deleted by review                   7            7       
Comment Rude Or Offensive post deleted by 3+ flaggers              81           81      
Comment Rude Or Offensive comment deleted by author                37           37      
Comment Rude Or Offensive post deleted by author                   55           55      
Comment Rude Or Offensive flagged comment deleted based on keyword 71           71      
Comment Rude Or Offensive flag handled by moderator                649          397     
Comment Rude Or Offensive post deleted by vote                     18           18      
CommentNoLongerNeeded     post deleted by 3+ flaggers              48           48      
CommentNoLongerNeeded     comment automatically deleted            1            1       
CommentNoLongerNeeded     flag handled by moderator                17882        17661   
CommentNoLongerNeeded     comment deleted by author                342          342     
CommentNoLongerNeeded     post deleted by review                   25           25      
CommentNoLongerNeeded     post deleted by vote                     52           52      
CommentNoLongerNeeded     post deleted by author                   214          214     
CommentNoLongerNeeded     flagged comment deleted based on keyword 11656        11656   
CommentUnwelcoming        post deleted by review                   10           10      
CommentUnwelcoming        comment deleted by author                70           70      
CommentUnwelcoming        post deleted by author                   165          165     
CommentUnwelcoming        flag handled by moderator                2071         1422    
CommentUnwelcoming        flagged comment deleted based on keyword 111          111     
CommentUnwelcoming        post deleted by vote                     35           35      
CommentUnwelcoming        post deleted by 3+ flaggers              109          109     

Observation here? For everything except No Longer Needed, the number of inaccurate flags being handled by moderators is worse than suggested by the previous tables. "Other" starts to actually look pretty reasonable...

Last thing we need here...

Comment flags from low-rep flaggers

One of the major changes (at least in terms of potential) over the past few months was in allowing low-rep users to flag comments on their own posts. Let's look at the stats for only those flags during August:

Type                      FlagsCreated Helpful On comments which were deleted 
------------------------- ------------ ------- ------------------------------ 
Comment Rude Or Offensive 132          48      85                             
CommentUnwelcoming        262          147     150                            
Comment Other             121          50      42                             

Well, that's pretty terrible compared to... Even the previous table. OTOH... There aren't very many of these flags; that's about 12% of all rude/unwelcoming/other flags raised during August. It's more than I originally expected, but not insanely high. However, these flags constitute 22% of all declined rude/unwelcoming/other comment flags - that's a pretty sizable chunk!

Anyway. Enough confusing raw data.

Let's dig in...

First, let's have a look at how the number of Rude, Unwelcoming or Other comment flags as handled by moderators has varied over the past few months...

charting the number of helpful, mod-handled comment flags since March on Stack Overflow

This has the same time period and annotations as the charts I posted the other day... But this is just flags on Stack Overflow, and just flags handled by moderators as helpful. Oh, and it's not a percentage - it's the actual count of flags per week.

...You'll notice that it still goes up. We're getting more useful flags. The cost is some additional number of not-so-useful flags, but we're at least getting something in exchange.

With that in mind, let's try & figure out if there's a pattern here for the sorts of comments that are Not Helpful. We've already touched on low-rep flaggers above, so I'm gonna look at two specific scenarios hinted at by your examples...

Flags on system-generated comments

There are three types of system-generated comments to consider here...

  1. Comments generated by Low Quality review when a reviewer selects a canned comment from the Delete or Recommend Deletion dialog. Those collected 84 flags in August, broken down as follows:

    Type                      FlagsCreated Helpful On comments which were deleted 
    ------------------------- ------------ ------- ------------------------------ 
    Comment Rude Or Offensive 5            2       2                              
    CommentUnwelcoming        9            6       1                              
    CommentNoLongerNeeded     56           56      48                             
    Comment Other             14           10      6                              
    
  2. Comments generated when a close vote or flag is raised, to provide a link to an original question while the question is not yet closed. There were 160 of these flags:

    Type                      FlagsCreated Helpful On comments which were deleted 
    ------------------------- ------------ ------- ------------------------------ 
    Comment Rude Or Offensive 3            0       1                              
    CommentUnwelcoming        22           4       5                              
    CommentNoLongerNeeded     84           45      47                             
    Comment Other             51           17      18                             
    
  3. Comments generated when an "off-topic" vote is cast with a custom explanation provided by the voter. There were 57 of these:

    Type                      FlagsCreated Helpful On comments which were deleted 
    ------------------------- ------------ ------- ------------------------------ 
    Comment Rude Or Offensive 8            4       4                              
    CommentUnwelcoming        14           5       7                              
    CommentNoLongerNeeded     27           24      22                             
    Comment Other             8            4       6                              
    

All together, these account for about 8% of declined comment flags, and about 7% of declined rude/unwelcoming/other flags.

Other flags

The "other" / "something else" option has the distinction of having the second-highest number of declined comment flags by volume and the second-lowest percentage of flags marked helpful.

This is still a relatively small number of flags overall, with about 300 declined for August... But let's see how those declined flags break down by keyword frequency:

194 the
150 is
138 to
115 not
102 this
89  comment
82  a
79  question
75  i
70  and
66  answer
60  it
51  in
44  of
37  my
36  for
34  an
31  duplicate
31  comments
30  be

Two-word phrases:

31                   this comment
29                   the question
28                   is not
19                   comment is
18                   this is
18                   it is
16                   an answer
15                   to the
15                   my question
14                   does not
13                   question is
13                   a duplicate
12                   i dont
11                   not a
11                   a comment
10                   the answer
10                   of the
10                   in the
10                   but it
9                    to be

Three-word phrases:

11                  this comment is
7                   it is not
7                   answer the question
6                   to answer the
6                   this is an
6                   not a duplicate
6                   an attempt to
5                   this is not
5                   not an answer
5                   my question is
5                   attempt to answer
4                   to the question
4                   to do with
4                   this comment says
4                   the question this
4                   nothing to do
4                   is not a
4                   is an answer
4                   i dont think
4                   comment is not

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, after seeing the results for system-generated comments above, that an awful lot of "other" flags are raised to dispute duplicates.

It's maybe a bit more interesting that a fair number of "other" flags are also raised on comments that try to answer the question... We kinda expected this might need to be addressed at some point, and it looks like that is the case.

Action items

First, I think it's important to remember that these are still relatively small changes. But, that doesn't make them any less irritating: these flags tend to be treated as high-priority, so even a small jump in noise means less time devoted to situations where a moderator's intervention is actually needed urgently - sorta the flag equivalent of crank calls to 911.

With that in mind, I'd recommend the following:

Blacklist duplicate patterns in Other flags

This should be easy: match on some trivial expression (say, \bnot\s+(a\s+)?duplicate\b) and reject the flag with some nice message about editing:

If this question has been misidentified as a duplicate, please edit it: make the title specific to this problem, and then reference the other question explaining why the answers there do not solve this problem.

Update: I've added this now:

flag text: "this is not a duplicate". Response: "Don't flag mistaken duplicate suggestions; instead, edit the question: make the title specific and detailed, then explain why the answers to the other question do not solve this problem."

Better guidance for new / low-rep flaggers

I have a sneaking suspicion that some non-trivial number of new users think "flag" means "reply". When we ran into this before, I changed the description of "other" to "in need of moderator intervention" to kinda emphasize the fact that no one in the conversation sees these flags.

But now "other" is "something else", and nothing else in the flag dialog hints at what flagging actually does... So I guess I could kinda see some folks thinking this is sort of a "reaction" or "postscript" option instead of a means of reporting abuse... So, maybe add a note indicating that no one in the conversation sees these? That, uh, flags are reviewed by third parties who will delete comments as needed? Open to suggestions.

Answers as comments... what do we do with them?

It's probably time to discuss some sort of strategy for handling flags on comments-as-answers. Flagging doesn't accomplish much; then again, neither does declining those flags. We've been telling people for years to create an answer that elaborates on the comments when they see these things, but there's nothing in the UI itself that encourages this - and what sometimes happens instead is that new folks see these comments and think they have to earn the comment privilege in order to answer!

I recommend kicking off another discussion specifically about this problem, with an eye toward identifying UI changes (either for flagging or commenting) that might assist in some way.

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  • 1
    Re answers as comments: High-rep users know perfectly well that they're not supposed to do that (and they do it anyway), so IMHO the solution should be targeted at low-rep users, particularly those who lack the comment privilege.
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 20:41
  • what's automatic deletion? "this is a duplicate.." comments that are deleted when the post is duped. All comments deleted when a post is deleted? Oh and thanks for this! still reading
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 21:38
  • 1
    Automatic deletion is any comment that the system deletes without there having to have been any flags raised - so yes, duplicate comments when a post is closed as a duplicate, but also canned comments generated by review which are deleted after a while if the associated answer isn't actually deleted. @YvetteColomb
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 21:42
  • 1
    I was wondering about review comments. I didn't know they timed out.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 21:49
  • 3
    The site would be clogged with them if they didn't. There are a few heuristics to help avoid breaking threads, but delete or be deleted is the rule.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:01
  • I'm still reading this! I'm taking my time to think about it as I read it. Thanks so much for providing all of this. It's appreciated.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:05
  • 1
    something also of note. Often the "other" flags will be informing mods of a situation that doesn't actually require the comment to be deleted. So in fact they can be helpful sometimes, but don't require the comment to be deleted. Though I can't see this as being a large number.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:14
  • 2
    So, less than only 2% of comments are "unwelcoming" and about half the claims of "unwelcoming" comments by new (low rep) users are rejected? That doesn't look like SO being unwelcoming. That looks like new users not accepting our quality standards.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:22
  • 1
    "I have a sneaking suspicion that some non-trivial number of new users think "flag" means "reply"." oh yeh - for sure, and I always feel bad dismissing them. Should probably write an auto comment to ping people about it. The thing is sometimes it's hard trying to communicate the rules of the site to people who cannot grasp some of the most fundamental work flows.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:25
  • 9
    Would it make sense to block "rude and abusive" and "unwelcoming" flags on system-generated comments (like review or possible duplicate)? If there's an issue with the wording, it should be taken up with the system, not the user. Granted this is a drop in the bucket.
    – Troyen
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:27
  • 2
    I'd be reluctant to draw any conclusions from this, @Raedwald. Stack Overflow averages north of a million comments a month; it's extremely possible that many of those aren't even read, much less read by anyone with both the inclination and ability to flag them. If the numbers here and the examples Yvette posted suggest anything, it's that an awful lot of folks have no idea what flags are for, and that cuts both ways...
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:28
  • The comment flagging box could read along the lines "Should this comment be deleted?" Basically any comment flag should be letting the system or a mod know "this comment should be deleted" or a group of comments should be deleted. With the one prickly exception of a person in a pattern of harassing another person. Perhaps this is the issue. "This comment should be deleted" - "There is an issue with this person". All else goes into the post flag bag.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:29
  • @Raedwald yep to be clear, this question is a focus on where flagging goes awry. I did make the comment that there's a lot of acidic stuff that doesn't belong on the site. It's hard to keep a perspective on things. New users are not the enemy, neither are old users. Bad behaviour is, in whatever form, new or old. The UX is an ongoing issue to help make the site run more easily. That's why I didn't want to make this a bashing post on new users behaviour, but rather the UX - thought I do kinda stick it to new users.. Oh I'm so confused. ...
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:34
  • there's some mysterious something else comment flags with reasons "duplicate" raised and approved by some mod testing the new red warning box ... somewhere..... perhaps consider adding "isn't duplicate" to that regex
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 22:39
  • 3
    @Shog9 gets way to few credit for perfect posts like this.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Sep 11, 2018 at 5:55
37

On the one hand, some of the flags above are patently absurd. On the other, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with how these flags are handled by the system, revealed by your guidance here:

If In Doubt Flag as No Longer Needed or Raise a Mod Flag

The trouble with this guidance is that it's practically impossible have no "doubt" that the unfriendly or unkind flag definitely does apply to some comment. While we probably have just about enough shared understanding of what constitutes "bigotry" and "abuse" and "harassment" to flag comments as such in a more-or-less consistent and uncontroversial way, we have pretty much no agreement on what constitutes being "unfriendly".

Really, the root problem here is systemic. Having - in my view - pretty convincingly demonstrated, over months of painful arguments, that as a community we have almost no shared sense at all of what is "unwelcoming", "unkind", "unfriendly", or what have you, it seems like a bad idea to have then decided to make comments that fall into these nebulous categories have consequences for their authors.

Ever since learning that they do, I've stopped using the flag entirely. Your guidance to not use them if we have any "doubt" about whether they apply reinforces to me that that's the right thing to do; the description of the flag is so inherently subjective that having no "doubt" that it applies is an unreachable standard, and it seems to me that the only logical way to comply with your proposal here is for none of us to ever use the flag.

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    I tend to agree with this. I'm don't mean to come across as the authority (I realise in your answer I may have come across as that). I honestly have no issue with deleting comments, it's the back end of marking them helpful that makes it tricky. If that makes sense. Yeh we almost need the unfriendly flag to carry no back end consequences. It would solve a lot of issues in confusion and consensus. added answer
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:08
26

I need to flag the comment as something.

The "No Longer Needed" option is the third option of four. As such, it requires a determined search visually and reading through the other options which don't really apply and there's loads to read for what I want. It is the most-sought option, but it is the best-hidden one.

Gah! I'll click the first option.

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    yeh maybe the order should be no-longer-needed | unkind | rude | custom. Good point. You don't mean that you're literally using the first option, that other users might be?
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 23:10
  • 4
    @YvetteColomb 1) Yeah, my suggestion for that on MSE didn't get much support. I think there might be some ulterior motive behind that not happening. 2) No, I just give up on trying to read through the list on days when my eyesight isn't that good and don't bother voting. I know a vote is needed, but they make it too much hassle to find the option I need most of the time, so I get dissapointed and maybe close SO for the night. Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 23:22
  • 12
    I don't think there's more ulterior motive than usual. You know, "new contributors" are soft-natured butterflies who should flag everything, the rest of the users should be constantly walking on eggshells, everyone and everything is welcome here, we strive to help people and to teach people and to serve them when they learn or whatever. In short, the red flag has to be first because everything else in the UI works that way. If I didn't know better I'd think that SO the company thinks new users are stupid. Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 23:47
  • 6
    @AndrasDeak "If I didn't know better I'd think that SO the company thinks new users are stupid" that made me smile. thanks I needed that.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 8, 2018 at 5:24
  • "I need to flag the comment as something." No you don't Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 11:12
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit Would it have helped if I had written it as "I"? Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 11:34
  • I'm not sure. Maybe I'm not understanding that line. My point is that people seem to think that they must flag something. Not doing anything is a valid option. (This goes along with the "I must leave a clue/hint/information" rubbish that people use to defend writing half-answers in comments!) Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 11:35
17

I'd suggest taking two steps.

Notate the correct action that should have been taken when declining a flag.

I don't know what the flag queue looks like, but if it had an optional set of radio buttons that allowed you to specify that it should have been flagged as no longer needed, that information could be relayed to the flagger so that they can better use the flagging tool in the future.

Inform the flagger when one of their flags are declined

When one of my flags are declined, I don't find out about it until after I notice it in my flag history. If I was informed, I would be able to look and see why, assuming it was notated by the first step.


I know that there are some users who allow their account to be used by bots to cast flags which can result in a lot more flags than I regularly cast, but since these notifications would only occur on flags that were declined, I wouldn't expect it to be too much of a burden on them. And, with the first step being optional, hopefully it won't have too dire of an impact on the reviewing of comment flags.

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    we don't get to create custom declined reasons. They're either marked helpful, declined or disputed - but that's not simple either. A mod wrote a script that makes it easy to decline a flag, but still delete the comment. Don't forget we get hundreds of comment flags per day, so manually contacting users for declined flags is not feasible
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 23:16
  • 8
    @YvetteColomb - I don't think Kevin meant for you to do it. SE should update the flagging moderator experience. It's truly absurd that a moderator should have had to write a userscript to work around a poor UX provided to uncompensated volunteers helping manage a for-profit network of sites. Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 9:35
13

This is a problem that falls firmly in the wheelhouse of moderators. The Meta-crowd has a fairly good grasp of what to flag and when, but those who simply don't follow Meta or otherwise take umbrage to the fact that their question is a duplicate...well, those are the ones who are lost.

Now I know you want to reach those guys. Problem is, I don't think it's possible. You're going to get mired in discussions with people who don't really know or care about what it means to get "accurate" with flags.

The only real thing that can be done about this? Moderation needs to be more aggressive in taking away the privilege to flag questions. Without that, we won't get the point across that poor flagging is not appreciated.

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    I agree. I'm not sure we can take away the privilege to flag comments.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 20:37
  • 3
    I thought you could if the number of errant flags reached a threshold? Probably why I didn't make more noise about it when they first drafted the new CoC policy.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 20:42
  • the main consequence of comments flags (apart from comment deletion) is the rude/unkind flags alert mods to patterns of abuse. Dealing with those, if warranted is heavy handed. the mod message or worse still suspension. If we can suspend a user's comment flag right automatically or manually, I don't know about it. It makes it tricky, there's no consequence for bad comment flagging. And people continually flag at times. It would have to be extreme for a mod to take action though
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 21:04
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    @Makoto The flag ban only applies to post flags not comment flags.
    – user440595
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 21:18
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    @Makoto I asked for this feature request as clearly many people are not aware of this. It would solve about 80% of the comment flagging problems. The remaining 20% will be bringing up their comment flagging bans on meta lol
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 21:51
10

This is really asking, "how do we get people to understand the rules better?"

As someone who reads the rules as soon as I can find them, I'm not sure why people would just ignore them, but I can think of a couple solutions.

Rename the flags

The problem with "rude/unfriendly" is that nearly anything can be misinterpreted as that online, regardless of author intent. A differently-connotated name could do, such as "condescending" or "unhelpful".

Make it more obvious why they're wrong

One other thing I could see is having declined flags show up in the inbox, to increase visibility. The next step is to actually improve the mod interface. If this really is becoming a problem, then we need to add decline reasons to flags.

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    I like this answer. Not sure if changing the names will help though, it seems people have swapped the rude/abusive flags for unkind.. I think the UI needs to change. Users be made aware when flags are declined. But that's a whole lot of more word for SE devs
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:04
  • One of the moves to make the site more welcoming was to rename the flags, and broaden them. Now you're proposing we rename the flags again to narrow them? (That does make sense as undoing what caused the increase in wrong flags tends to fix it, but still not gonna happen).
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 15:06
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    @ErikvonAsmuth I wasn't there for that discussion, but Mark Amery's answer makes it clear that they're just too broad.
    – Nissa
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 15:09
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    Oh, definitely not "unhelpful." Then suddenly any comment that doesn't directly answer the OP's question is not helpful to them and can be flagged.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 22:35
  • 1
    +1 for Make it more obvious why they're wrong - perhaps by splitting flags as suggested in other answers Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 10:50
  • "A differently-connotated name could do, such as "condescending" or "unhelpful"." My suggestion is "unprofessional". I think this is slightly more objective. Commented Jan 15, 2023 at 4:06
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Also the culture of the site has changed. What was acceptable 8 years ago may not be acceptable today. It's not black and white. If in doubt flag as no longer needed.

The question mentioned that this is more of a system problem. I want to bring it up in an answer because it seems particularly egregious.

It is completely non-obvious that "This comment is unhelpful or unkind" really means "This comment is unhelpful or unkind and pre-dates the new CoC."

If this distinction is important, clarifying text should be added to the flag description. Or the system should be modified to not penalize accounts for unkind comments made before the new CoC.

5
  • well a comment is what a comment is. My point is, I'm unwilling to impose a penalty on users for conducting themselves within the site's CoC (well there wasn't one) 8 years ago. If there was an embargo on penalties for comments flagged greater than X time ago, it would make it easier, maybe. Honestly I'm noticing more and more comments flagged as unking and it's really like the hypersentivity gauge has exploded. As a mod seeing the ridiculous flags, I find it grating. Interestingly I showed my mother (non-programmer) she said people are taking a lend with the flagging. It's a joke to them...
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:20
  • ... she may be right
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:20
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb Mothers are always right (even when they are wrong) Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:23
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    I don't think the big difference is the new CoC because we already had the Be Nice policy. I think the difference is the new flag. It used to be good or bad for a comment, no inbetween. And now they put the unkind flag inbetween the good and the bad. Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:28
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    @AndréKool yes and no. I agree with the reasoning, however the stats seem to indicate that many of the abusive flags have been replaced with unkind flags. Though I do think the flag increase could well be related to that and the fact new users also now have flagging rights on comments on their own posts.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 9, 2018 at 14:41
3

Something that may solve some issues with confusion and consensus over flag appropriateness would be removing the back end consequences for the unkind/unfriendly flag. Although I fear this is more of a bandaid.

From this answer:

Part 1.

It would be preferable if we continued to only count the first flag It contains harassment, bigotry, or abuse. as counting towards the automatic too many rude/abusive comments autoflag and not the unfriendly or unkind flag.

That would make it easier to handle such flags and provide moderators with more latitude on marking It's unfriendly or unkind. as helpful.


Part 2.

Can we have two separate auto flags with differing thresholds for the two split rude and abusive flag types.

It contains harassment, bigotry, or abuse. as counting towards the old automatic too many rude/abusive comments flag.

It's unfriendly or unkind. more flags to count towards an auto "too many unfriendly comments".

Or a different threshold for Stack Overflow. I fear our flag queue will be swamped with these auto flags.

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    We also need to add some guidance along the lines of "Sarcasm is against the CoC now". I've been pointed to that part of the CoC when asking about harmless comments being deleted. Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 22:43
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    @AndrasDeak it's a shame it's gotten so serious. I think you'd find most of the mods wont penalise users for making jokes and the people we know and might have a better insight into people. That said. sometimes it's still better to decline an unkind flag, but still delete the comment, if it's no longer needed or serves no real purpose. There's a lot of comments that - yeh the person could've been nicer, but IMO the whole CoC thing was to catch outright rudeness or that malignant rudeness that may be more subtle, but a reasonable person knows is not on. .../
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 22:48
  • \... Anything else on the ball line IMO should be declined, but deleted. We're not out to hunt people. And that's a little what some of the flagging feels like. That type of flagging I'll always decline. We're not here to help people cope with ordinary life.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 22:49
  • I appreciate the declines, but if the content gets deleted regardless (because let's face it, most things could be read as unkind by some people somewhere), the hunt is a success. This is not to say that you should or can do anything differently; I suspect that mods want this situation as much as we do. Blessed are the powers that be. Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 22:52
3

While none of your examples are in any grey area (they are all invalid) I think many of the unkind flags may be due to the wording and reviewing being out of line:

The unkind flag specifically states it is for "rude or condescending" comments, but in reality something flagged with direct unkind language "you're so stupid" will be marked helpful, but "you obviously can't understand how it works" or "How could it help? I explained the problem" condescending comments can be declined. [comments truncated so you have less impulse to google].

Because a condescending comment can be subjective (particularly if you have not read the entire post), an increase in declined flags seems predictable.

From my personal experience this happen easily - there are high rep users who frequently post bounties and then write condescending remarks to anyone who asks for clarification or attempts to answer - like the bounty bought them the right to be rude. When I saw this pattern ongoing I flagged several comments where the OP was implying the answerer didn't understand or hadn't read properly (when in fact they we're making genuine attempts to help and at clarification and it was the OP's mistake). These flags were across several posts and were declined, adding me to your statistic above.


My two cents is that we should ensure the description matches how you expect the flags to be used and perhaps introduce a review queue for comments. At the moment the pressure is all on one person (moderator) to decide if they agree that the intent was unkind (condescending) and it is easy for two or more people to disagree, especially where the person writing the comment does not use English as their first language and niceties can be lost through translation.

After re-reading other answers I also think the simplest fix is to split the flags. Having specific 'abusive', 'unkind' and 'condescending' flags will make it clearer to the reviewer (mod) why something was flagged, and will make the flagger put more thought into whether to flag. At the very least, it will give you a clearer picture as to where the errant flags are coming from.

2

For the time being I've decided to make comments sometimes when people are using comment flags incorrectly, especially repeatedly.

I've created a couple of auto-comments:

[Q] Incorrect flagging

Your comment flag has been declined. Please read about how to flag comments.

[A] Incorrect flagging

Your comment flag has been declined. Please read about how to flag comments.

My auto comment gist is here. I update it regularly, tweak it and reevaluate the usefulness of the comments. Feel free to use them or leave feedback, but they change often and I'm lazy and don't leave edit reasons, as it's been a collection for personal use.

0

Scare banner?

I'm not sure you can forestall the first wrong unwelcome flag. Regardless of any help center/usage notes some people are going to slam that unwelcome button.

However, if a user flags a comment as unwelcoming, and the flag is declined, subsequent flag attempts should warn the user that his previous flags were declined.

In fact, isn't this already a feature?

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  • Yeah, we could just have that turn on earlier.
    – Nissa
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 13:58
  • yeh and also I'm noticing some users will get a declined flag and then flag the next comment by that user. I'm not sure if they're paying attention to declined flags or even know if such a thing exists. We get banners when we have declined flags on posts.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:00
  • oh i didn't answer - this is not a feature. In fact there no automatic consequence for declined comment flags. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/315216/…
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 8, 2018 at 5:23

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