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I'm sure everyone here knows of that infamous post. I'm also sure that everyone knows that, when asked to provide hard evidence for this claim:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

... Stack Overflow the company has responded with... deafening silence.

But now we have those facts, because one male user from the Spanish Stack Overflow site decided to pose as a woman for a year, and here is a post detailing his experiences (Google translated):

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fes.meta.stackoverflow.com%2Fquestions%2F3807%2Fdurante-un-a%25C3%25B1o-me-he-hecho-pasar-por-mujer-en-stackoverflow-es

Link to the original, for those that are not Spanish handicapped.

I'm not going to repost his experience in full - although I strongly recommend reading it in its entirety - just his conclusions:

F has had a negative effect, but mitigated by other positive effects.

The support and acceptance of the F is the fruit of benevolent sexism.

There has been no desire to belittle my profile because of being F.

So, Stack Overflow the company, I said it yesterday, and I'm going to say it again:

Put up or shut up.

You have consistently failed to produce evidence to back up your assertions, while instead using once-off instances to justify broad policy changes that have had overwhelmingly negative repercussions on the company's relations with veteran users.

You have consistently refused to acknowledge that you could be wrong on this topic, regardless of the ever-mounting evidence that you are.

A company that refuses to change its behaviour based on facts is not one that I can trust. When is this going to change?

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    Counterpoint, this post Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 7:26
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    There is somebody that everybody knows that did that as well. His blog post about it is here. Well, nothing noteworthy happened, SO users are not averse to good answers. Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 7:51
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    There are many things I dislike about the "welcoming" initiative, and about the (in)famous blog post. But the level of indignation and constant barrage by some outraged users is very tedious. If one wanted to prove that we, as a community, are not unkind, one should try working a bit on the tone and quality of some of the complaints.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 8:08
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    @ErikA I believe N = 0 (for the purposes of this post). If one wanted to at least attempt a minimally serious research, separating the researcher from the data analyzed would be a place to start. That post is little more than an anecdote.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 8:42
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    I haven't posted details of my experience as Daisy Shipton precisely because it could incite this sort of post. One person not knowingly experiencing sexism does not refute the points made in the blog post. There's a lot of nuance in this that can be easily missed or misrepresented.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 9:16
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    Maybe I should reword this post. My point is that two people actually made the effort of studying sexism on SO, while Stack Overflow itself has apparently done no research. Regardless of how biased/poor quality/anecdotal those studies are (or are not), that's still more effort to counteract Stack Overflow's claim than Stack Overflow has put into supporting it.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 9:27
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    There's an assumption in that claim, that Stack Overflow publicizes all the work it does to research and address this.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 9:37
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    I am getting mighty sick of posts like these. I am a veteran user and I do not need more muck raking and pitchforks and allegations. I do not feel marginalised, or sidelined or pushed out, by SO. Can you please, please, get a damn grip on yourselves and stop with the victimisations?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 9:54
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    @MartijnPieters "I don't have this issue, therefore the issue isn't important." Yeah, that's a real mature way to go about things. Reminds me of how sexism is treated.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 10:05
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    Would just linking to all the many, many tweets, blog posts etc of people who have perceived Stack Overflow as hostile count as evidence for you? There's no shortage of those.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 10:18
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    Is this part "Put up or shut up" really needed in order to make your point?
    – 4386427
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 10:18
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    @IanKemp I’m not saying the issue doesn’t seem important. I’m saying that the foot stamping and demanding and shaking of fists and claiming to speak for everyone are getting really old. It is your tone and approach that I’m fed up with.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 10:24
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    I’m not even talking about objectivity here, because that appears to be lacking. The non-English SO sites each have their own culture, comparing experiences on one of those sites with SO itself is a very big leap. You can’t apply the results of that study to SO without at least that caveat. That you don’t suggests to me that you are not looking at the issues objectively.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 10:26
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    "You have consistently failed to produce evidence to back up your assertions, while instead using once-off [sic] instances to justify broad policy changes". You mean like using the experience of a single user and extrapolating to the millions of users in the network? How are you not doing exactly what you accuse SE of doing here? You are basing your entire rant on a single data point and one from another site.
    – terdon
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 11:59
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    Also.... You tell Martijn is argument is 'I don't experience it therefore it doesn't exist'... But isn't this exactly what you're doing with that Spanish user's experience? 'he didn't experience it, therefore it's proof it doesn't exist'?
    – Patrice
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 14:42

1 Answer 1

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This is such a difficult topic to address. I hope this makes sense. It's a meandering of thoughts and I hope it's easy enough to follow and provides some answer.

I have to say, reading the linked article and this post I'm a little upset, but it does give me a perfect opportunity to speak frankly.

The experiment of men masquerading as women on the site in not uncommon, and while I applaud these men attempting to understand another person's experience, it is fundamentally flawed. These people are men, not women.

From way back when I wrote this post:

Declining Numbers of Women in Programming, What Can SO do to Help?

I didn't hold Stack Overflow to be particularly "sexist". The programming industry has been sexist (in my experience). I am a woman, look like one, talk like one and get treated like a moron on occasion, because of this fact -not on here though.

You have consistently failed to produce evidence to back up your assertions, while instead using once-off instances to justify broad policy changes that have had overwhelmingly negative repercussions on the company's relations with veteran users.

Well this is not true. They have repeatedly said they've had feedback telling them that the site is unwelcoming to certain classes of people over other classes of people. Now I cannot speak for men, or people of colour (even though I have a racial mix, I've experienced the world with white privilege), I can speak for my experience as a human woman.

My Experience on Stack Overflow as a human being who happens to be Female

I had a love hate relationship with the site from the early on. I first signed up in 2012? and didn't start participating until 2013. There were many issues that made my initiation to the site bumpy, that were nothing to do with the site. However, there were many issues that were intrinsically bound to the site that made it incredibly hard.

My first post on meta was met with support, but it wasn't long before that capsized. I failed to grasp the culture of meta. I didn't understand the humour. Didn't know when to use memes or which memes were ok. I was desperately trying to fit in. I would come up with ideas to help the site that were poorly received and I had a lot of difficulty understanding how to write a post that people would like. In fact, it's taken me five years to work that one out. Even now I cannot always predict what type of reception my posts will receive and it can be stressful if I'm writing anything that is personal (like this) or advocating change. Meta can respond unpredictably to requests for change.

Part of the reason (in my opinion) I didn't understand the culture, was because I am a woman and led a very different life. I got into programming later in life and didn't connect with a lot of stuff that people in my non-cyber programming world related to. This is where the site needs to be tolerant of people coming from varying backgrounds. Who do not understand the culture. Where English is a second language. Where they're used to being marginalised. None of us realised it was indeed the nature of Meta and it wasn't personal at all! If you didn't have the quirk, it was kinda your bad luck.

I found the massive downvotes and pile on of comments on meta distressing. It's easy to say to people, don't take the downvotes personally. There is limit to people's capacity to endure criticism and disagreement (downvotes signal disagreement on meta?). Some people do not tolerate a few downvotes, some can cope with 8 or 9. What about 20? or 30 downvotes, 50? or more. Over 100? You see it's easy for people to say, well it doesn't matter. More often than not, they are people who have not experienced relentless downvotes and a pile on of comments from so many people, often reiterating the same thing and telling you how wrong you are and why or at worst, to go someone else. People did not pull their punches. It was at best good for character growth, but mostly gruelling.

I know I am not the only person who feels this way.

Over the years, I've talked to dozens of female programmers who do not like the site and will not open an account as a woman on the site. They post as a genderless blob. But the interesting thing is. I know as many, in fact more men who are too frightened to post on the site. My peers I studied with. It turned out, I was the exception to the rule. Most people inexperienced in programming were terrified of our site! Many high rep users of the main site refuse to post on meta. I can go and drag up links. I honestly don't have the energy. But suffice to say, this is one user of the site, one person, one "woman" who was not happy with the culture of the site and I let the Network know that in no uncertain terms. I've communicated with Community Managers for years about the site's culture and how it needs to change. This is long before the "Welcoming blog".

A well timed tweet might have co-ordinated with the timing of the site's launch to change things, but I suspect that was more expedient than totally unexpected. As I know for a fact the site was trying to improve things for a long time before the welcoming blog, it was extremely difficult, due to the push back it would receive on Meta. Yet the complaints kept rolling in.

There was a large number of people avoiding the site. We didn't hear about it, because they were avoiding the site.

My personal observation of the problems of Meta is this: It has been a very small, but loud and active group within the community that has made it more or less miserable to new people participating on Meta (not Main) for many years. It is also my personal observation, that those same people don't have the same power or influence over Meta today as they had before. Because: some of them have left, many of them have been suspended many times since the welcoming blog and the launch of the Code of Conduct. People other than these people are feeling more supported and speaking out on Meta.

I am a strong advocate for this community.

Divisions, disappointment and pillory: how can we make meta a more enjoyable, productive space for everyone?
What does our long term community need? What does our long term community need to feel valued?

I do not like to see new people come onto the site misinformed or with an attitude of being entitled:

When is a comment hostile or unfriendly? (Educating newer users how to flag comments)

I'm a strong advocate of change to improve our site.

I love our community and I can see how people have felt thrown under the bus, but we also need to see where we've been at fault. I personally have made my fair share of mistakes and I have been held accountable and face up to them. Just as do other moderators and the Community Team. It's time our long term user base did the same.

No one is saying that new users are more important that our existing users.

No one is saying low quality stuff is ok on the site.

I have actively sought to remove low quality posts off the site as expediently as possible.

Saying we want have a zero tolerance for abuse on the site does not mean our community is bad. This rule applies equally to all the people who come here and dump homework or abuse people when they get feedback.

No one has said, anywhere or any time, "pamper the new comer, hold their hand, tell them everything is OK". No. That is not what the network is telling us. They're simply saying, "don't abuse them". How hard can that be? Instead of having a go (and believe me, it's tempting at times), flag the stuff and walk on by. Upvote posts that suggest ways to get rid of low quality junk.

It's time to put all this behind us and move forward. We're moving on in leaps and bounds.


Fun fact.
I came back on the site to find this comment:

If you want to school someone, go ahead and have children of your own if you don't already have one. Don't make me one of them. I can comment however I like. — xxx 3 hours ago

Hm wonder if this comment would have been level towards a man? You decide.

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    Thanks for this. The flawed nature of my personal experiment is the sort of reason I haven't posted a more detailed set of results - because while it can have some value (and was aimed as much as "low rep" as "female-presenting") it's far from scientific, and has very significant limitations. Nice to see that decision being validated :)
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 12:30
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    @JonSkeet I haven't really explained enough about those types of experiments and the flaws, it was I woke up to go the bathroom and checked in on MSO and wrote an answer to a complex question. It really needs an entire article to cover it.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 12:32
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    Yup, that makes sense to me. Hopefully we're on the same page. And hopefully you can get some more sleep now :)
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 12:33
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    There's load of discrimination people in marginalised groups experience, this affects the psyche, they in turn carry that around and it affects interactions and expectations. An unforgiving site like our Meta was (it's improving) is a hell for people with these issues. @JonSkeet oh yeh, we're on the same page :)
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 12:34
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    Let me start by saying that I dislike the tone used by OP. However, the claim made by OP is not unfair. Let's get some hard facts showing that "we" are hostile to e.g. the females at SO. I don't see how your post address that at all. You make sure to write "as a human being who happens to be Female" which removes focus from the female-part and turns this into an answer from "any human being". Fine... but pretty irrelevant for the particular question. I've been on SO for some time now and I just can't think of a single incident where someone was harassed just for being a female. ….
    – 4386427
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 19:15
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    Quote: "Hm wonder if this comment would have been level towards a man? You decide." I don't see that the comment is something that couldn't be written to a man as well.
    – 4386427
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 20:10
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    @4386427 It sounds like you have some strong opinions here. Please share your perspective in an answer, where you can properly defend it and it can get a fair hearing. Reserve comments for seeking clarification on Yvette’s answer, rather than disputing her experiences.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 20:18
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    At least in my part of the world, having children is really not an expression that is reserved for people that can grow them in their belly, and is used without any kind of malice in many cases ("can't wait for you to have children") at whomever. As for this specific case, the tone might be angry, but I find one really has to have a preconception about having children in their own mind to find this directed only at foetus-bearing humans. Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:39
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    @CodyGray ... I can help getting it stopped. So in short (too late now, I guess) - my comment was made with the purpose of getting clarifications related to Yvette's answer. p.s. Just to make it clear: I do not feel angry towards anyone, I do not hate anyone here. I'm just trying to understand. And I do think Yvette is doing a great job.
    – 4386427
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 7:39
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    Broadly speaking agree. Meta is kind of harsh. You get raked over the coals all too easily (verbally speaking) and I would NOT suggest to any new user to ask on meta about why their post got closed or downvoted or what have you. It's not a positive experience, and all but guarantees that user gets burned by the meta effect and pile on.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 7:45
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    @Magisch I don't know, when a question about downvotes is calm the response is usually very good and professional. It's posts made in anger that tend to go off the rails rather quickly due to the mentioned piling up. If only the pile up effect could be somehow slowed down, it'd probably already be a lot better.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 9:11
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    @4386427 Here is a hard fact, from my personal collection of gems, posted here as tongue-in-cheek anecdote as I couldn't take that comment seriously: "@ModusTollens German hacker females in the mold of Hilter Merkel [...] Enjoy the crash & burn (SE, the EU, feminism, and everything you endear)." I assume that males would only have been called "Hitler", not "Hitler Merkel" :P ;) Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 9:25
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    On a more serious note, I don't feel I am treated differently on SO for being female (although I could do with being called "Sir" less). Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 9:28
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    @YvetteColomb I absolutely agree. The general unwelcoming is the issue. Thanks for your post. Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 9:32
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    @ModusTollens so glad for your feedback :D I'd love to see more women represented on the site. It goes a long way in being role models. Besides the community can only be enhanced by diversity.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 9:34

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