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Bear with me. This is an attempt to sweep together a lot of the angst on the site in an attempt to deal with it. This isn't a question. It's literally a discussion. I'm sharing my ideas and you can share yours.

Some causes...

It goes without saying that some of the committed users of the site have had an increasing feeling of disenfranchisement. There has been both a gradual and a sudden cause for this.

How 6 to 8 weeks has become the new never

Somewhere in our history the joke about taking 6-8 weeks to implement a feature grew sour. Eventually people queried the time unit (6 - 8 whats, years?) and it is abundantly clear that many people have/had lost faith that the changes the community has so desperately asked for will ever be implemented.

The side effect of this, naturally, is people feel they are not being listened to. This is coupled with everyone being dumped in a wave of the welcoming push, people feel they are not important to the site. It's all very convenient to use people's efforts and energies, but it's feeling increasingly one sided for many people.

The Welcoming push, who cares about the main community?

The criticism and activity off the site seemed to be a catalyst for many of the changes over the past year on the site. Some people were upset, naturally, that they'd dedicated their time to the site, asked for the tools to improve the experience, nothing happens. It appears that people off the site complain about the site and there's a plethora of activity to appease these people who don't use the site. On top of it, the main contributors of the site felt ostracised and criticised.

This chewed up considerable community good will.

I'm sure that was not how it was intended, but hindsight is a wonderful illuminator and it was how it was felt by many of the people on the site.

We now also have a position where it's becoming almost fashionable to criticise Stack Overflow off the site. A well crafted tweet and people feel the love. Inevitably these tweets make their way back to our site and help stir the dissension between the us and them and people feeling attacked (well we often are attacked, I say we, as I'm part of this site also).

We can all be rude, is anyone even nice?

And we haven't always been welcoming. We can be mean to each other sometimes. Some people come onto the site with entitled arrogance and spit venom at our community. We've also had long running members of our community ridicule newcomers, making it an actual frightening experience to post on the site. What I'm saying is the site isn't perfect and it's improving greatly, but it does work two ways. What we need to protect are the people who don't do this. Both long running members and potential newcomers.

We have a problem that the drama on meta is flooding out sensibility. I'm not saying that people's concerns are not real, it's the way these are expressed. There are plenty of decent people who want to contribute positively, but somehow meta seems to easily distort people's focus. People post relevant and perfectly reasonable issues. When it's an emotional issue that resonates with the betrayal people have felt with the site is often becomes heated in the ensuing discussion.

Then the same type of question will be asked again. These usually end less well, often melting into a mess of debate over a peripheral of issues, caused by years of resentment and bad habits in many cases. It's like having to compete in a rugby match to come out the other side to find relief.

What can we do to alleviate this stress?

Understanding that things are not always what they seem.

A couple of things worth mentioning are:

  • It's clear that there are issues moving forward scaling a site that's undergone such growth.

  • The network is working on shoring up the debt to the community in improving our tools. People are unlikely to believe that one until they see it, though.

  • There was a lot of agitation from within the site about people feeling unwelcome long before it ever made it to Twitter. It just happened to come to a head in a very public manner that included social media. Something I'm realising we need to learn to live with.

People's concerns are taken seriously. There's been such a pile on of misery of late, and it breaks down the best of us. We're all humans doing our best. It's important we all remember this. The person posting in good faith on meta, and the comment thread gets out of hand, the people facing the front page every day and seeing low quality content and trying to keep calm, the people slogging at the close review queue, the moderators and (even) the staff. It's been a bumpy road this past while and we owe it to ourselves to unwind and allow things to calm down.

Being calm does not mean things won't be done. The biggest problems arising out of discussion that becomes derailed with high emotion, are: someone will start making personal attacks, people start to react with their limbic systems, which becomes draining and impedes the ability of people to get the actual answers they want. A lot of regulars stop participating on meta. It also looks really bad from an outsider's perspective. Public judgement does matter. We can hardly complain about outside criticism when it's spot on at times.

Patience and less pile on

My suggestion is to take a breath and sometimes, just read before commenting. 12 people saying the same thing, doesn't make it more right, and it makes it harder to keep up with a thread. Try and focus on the topic at hand. If other questions develop out of a post, search for that answer or post a new question. We need to improve our meta interactions. We need more patience on meta. We need to be kind to each other. Comment threads cannot be allowed to get out of hand with personal insults and accusations.

No one is saying do not discuss Stack Overflow either on Meta or elsewhere. No one is hiding anything. If you want to discuss things, keep it constructive. The reason people get tired of repetitious questions and the ensuing drama, is not because they don't want to give answers; they are exhausted by it.

If you have issues with how we communicate on meta, please post an answer.

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  • 8
    I guess we love to hate what we love. Something like that. No words.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 17:30
  • 28
    i lost all faith in getting our tools improved when we got the left menu. :shrug: the tools aren't the only reason i'm here.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 17:34
  • 5
    Do you want to have a discussion about it? I was going to write a response to this but you deleted this post quickly. People do that often here on Meta and you doing it exacerbated my opinions on responding to these kinds of Meta posts. >:(
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 17:46
  • 34
    I would argue that it's kind of proving your point...when people decide to take their ball and go home when their Meta post isn't received as well as they want it to be or as well as they perceive it to be, then this only further fuels the disconnect. By deleting the post, you contribute to the very problem you want to discuss. C'mon. :(
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 17:51
  • 14
    I hereby grant you the meta trophy for discussing meta in a meta post ;) Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 17:53
  • 37
    I feel there isn't much to discuss until we get some acknowledgement from SE that they dropped the ball massively on the latest Summer of Love, and used up all the goodwill left in the community.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:02
  • 9
    @Andras Deak: Meta is murder, meta meta doubly so Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:02
  • 7
    And when you're an employee, and the good mostly cordial relationship you had with your community deteriorates into assuming the worst and working from there, it can feel personal and attacking, even when the users are just speaking from their hurt and betrayal.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:15
  • 21
    @Magisch I think it's a complicated situation. Tim's getting a lot of crap, but a large part of that crap is because he happens to be the community-facing side of the company and a lot of the things done wrong happen to be his responsibility. I'm aware that he personally has also been attacked, but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of criticism (civil or not) is aimed at the company and corporate (ir)responsibility and whatever aspects, and he just happens to be whom all it goes through. So I understand he's getting fed up but I don't think it's entirely our fault. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:15
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    @TravisJ for what it's worth I believe the source of mistrust is SO (the company) and their now-longterm misguided communication strategies. Meta people always agree and love one another (ahem). Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:25
  • 10
    @YvetteColomb - I disagree. This post structure doesn't look particularly constructive to me, and creating a place to vent based on a rant isn't exactly bringing us together.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:29
  • 5
    Both of my posts on meta have enjoyed a hearty negative response. The first one stung, the second one... I knew what was coming before I hit submit. At this point I don't see a reason to post unless it's at odds with the consensus, and I know I'm going to take a bunch of heat for voicing a different opinion or even facts which disprove the consensus. Why is that? That's a psychology issue far larger than SO. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 22:20
  • 13
    There's a thing a couple of the veterans do, and it's also something I think hurts the most in conversations on meta: people who are used to meta already think their post will be downvoted and ridiculed, so they don't care, go ranty, then it happens and they go 'see?! Meta is evil'. I even see a bit of this here. One of your comments talks about downvotes and pileon here, Yvette. I must say since I saw your post, it has been standing on the + side of votes, with a decent reaction. Was it necessary to throw oil on the fire by mentioning your post's reception? Not at all. Yet it happens daily:/
    – Patrice
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 23:46
  • 5
    @Yvette I don't think throwing 'you're insulting' at one another is going to make for a productive discussion. I also think you've crossed paths with me enough to know there was no intent to be offensive ^^ If we forget that, the crux of what I am saying is still true though. 'User goes to post on Meta, assuming they'll get a bad reception' 'one person disagrees, downvotes or posts a comment' 'OP reacts badly, fully in line with their perspective' 'everyone jumps on one another and chaos follows'.
    – Patrice
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 1:14
  • 9
    I fully agree the reception a lot of people get on Meta isn't ok. I've said that multiple times. I also think that playing this game of 'self fulfilling prophecy' is the worst way to go at it. It may not be throwing oil on the fire, if the imagery is too strong for you. But can we all agree that a comment saying something along the lines of 'I expected such a poor reaction'... Won't lead to a productive discussion eithrr
    – Patrice
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 1:16

8 Answers 8

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Eh, I think the focus on getting improved tools is misplaced. Yeah, it would be great to see improvements to the review queues, more power to close/delete problem questions, etc, but really... the only real issue I personally have with SO is this seemingly constant push to appease the very users who are posting these problem questions. We should instead be focusing on setting better expectations for new users (and veteran users who seem to think this site is a helpdesk) so that when they do inevitably post a question that receives a downvote, they won't rage quit or resort to hateful comments.

There seems to be this push to allow low quality questions to flourish. To allow questions that ask two questions instead of one to remain open instead of being closed as a duplicate. To allow questions that are so simple (and well covered across the web) that no one has bothered to ask it in 10 years to remain, just because it isn't a dupe. I don't understand this push. This site is supposed to be a repository of useful questions and answers, and instead we're overwhelmingly getting "I have this code that doesn't work" that's just the thousandth duplicate of some other "I have this code that doesn't work", but we can't close it as such because either A: said closure ages away or is reversed by some other high rep user who thinks a minor code difference is enough to make it not a duplicate, or B: we can't find the duplicate anyway among the sea of "I have this code that doesn't work" questions.

It's this feeling that Yes, I have the tools to act upon these questions, but 9 out of 10 times that I do, I receive a comment disputing my actions. The downvote gets reversed with 3 upvotes. The closevotes age away. I feel like my actions are meaningless. This isn't because the tools we have are inadequate, it's because the tools we have are overwhelmingly being misused or not used at all. Why aren't we doing a better job of presenting these tools to newer users as things they should be using? Why do we seem to even discourage people from using them? Why is it seen as a positive that there are more upvotes cast than downvotes when overwhelmingly people seem to agree that we get more bad questions than good ones?

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    "There seems to be this push to allow low quality questions to flourish" I don't see this. I understand that some close votes age away because there are too many questions posted, and the close review queue is too large. I don't think this is a conscious push, rather a problem of being overwhelmed with crap. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:08
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    To me that push comes in the form of such posts being upvoted, answered, and not closed, often by veteran users. but maybe that's just me
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:09
  • 63
    @CrisLuengo a lot of users such as myself were shaken by The Blog Post of Welcomingness which openly asserted that crap questions shouldn't be shot down. "But it’s totally cool to answer questions without giving a grilled poop sandwich about exactly what’s allowed. It’s fine to volunteer in one way without being expected to read and enforce every rule and meta discussion since forever.". As far as I know no official follow-up has been given that said "Yyyyyeah, sorry, we didn't mean that" Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:11
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    I think it's saying we shouldn't berrate answerers who decide to answer and not use their moderation tools. But, in my opinion, that logic is flawed. These people don't just answer the questions, they vote on them too. Upvoting the question increases the odds that your answer will be upvoted because it has the potential to increase the number of eyeballs on said answer. Not to mention the fact that answering the question bumps it to the front page, attracting more eyeballs, more answers, etc.. An answer to an off-topic or too broad question flies in the face of proper moderation.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:23
  • 7
    It's not just the answers, perhaps I shouldn't have chosen two sentences to quote. There are other hints, but then I guess we disagree in how we read the meta post, @CrisLuengo. There have been loads of other input from the company. Off the top of my head: the new contributor indicator. It goes straight against how SO was designed (only content matters). What is the purpose of the indicator if not to bias moderation on new posters? And bias how? Again we might disagree but the way I see it it's intended to reduce downvotes on crap posted by newcomers. Why would we do that only to newcomers? Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:31
  • 4
    it shows up under the user’s info box before you do any of that.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:43
  • 5
    @AndrasDeak: You could also choose to think of the indicator as saying "this user likely doesn't know the rules yes, please help them learn to use the site." Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:45
  • 10
    I don't think the new user indicator was meant to reduce downvotes or dissuade moderation; it was to hint that you should probably consider that this user isn't in tune with a decades worth of rules, perceived or real. How you take that into consideration will depend on you.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:47
  • 3
    @KevinB Then what do you want? A detailed list? "Remember to not be a jerk" is not something that non-jerks need a lot of clarification on. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 19:34
  • 10
    exactly my point. it’s useless information at best. at worst, it persuades people to misuse the tools available or to refrane from using them at all.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 19:44
  • 4
    @KevinB: No, at best, it catches someone who's about to be a jerk to a new user and reminds them not to be a jerk to new users. Your notion of "at best" only works under the assumption that there are no jerks. And if someone can mistake "Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering" for "don't close vote or downvote this user", then are you sure they're capable of reading at all? Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:05
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    @KevinB: "we already have effective tools for dealing with such users..." No, we have effective tools of undoing the comments such users create. The problem is that removing the content does not undo the damage created by that content. Thus, the only way to stop the damage is to stop the content before it happens. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:10
  • 5
    @KevinB: It seems to me that overall, your perspective is that, unless SO explicitly and unequivocally states that they don't mind if you down/closevote bad questions from new users, then everything relating to them wanting the site to be nicer is just a backdoor effort into stopping us from moderating the site better. And they must state it every time they make a change to the site. this thinking, at its core, represents an unwillingness to simply take SO's statements at face value, that you're constantly reading into their actions a motive that doesn't exist. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:19
  • 6
    Really? a motive that doesn't exist?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:21
  • 6
    @KevinB: Yes, I'm aware that the blog exists; linking to it tells me nothing I don't already know. However, they have taken precisely zero steps towards declaring that moderation activities are wrong. The CoC says nothing about it. The new-user indicator never mentions voting at all, despite mentioning comments and answers. And so forth. Given that actions speak louder than words, I have no problem simply ignoring that aspect of the blog for the time being. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:25
64

Stack Exchange has faced a year full of communications problems.

We had the welcoming blog post. A strong statement by someone who wasn't involved in the community, nor was present on meta, or had discussed this in any way in advance, posted on a blog with no option to reply to it.

We have the design changes, where it looks like practicality and commercialization was chosen over the users wishes. Which is fine in my opinion, we don't want an unmaintainable or unprofitable and thus unsustainable platform, but it was communicated late, and we had no part in the discussion, which meant there was a lot of negativity.

We had SE increasingly not taking action on feature requests, on which this post on MSE provides a nice overview.

We had the HNQ issue, where a site was booted off of HNQ immediately following an outrage on Twitter, which sparked discussion, especially since HNQ and changes to it had been frequently discussed on meta and this hadn't lead to change.

I'm not proud of my role in the latest issue with the mails to Amazon, and the tone of the discussion. I certainly regret the way that went, and I wish I hadn't reported this issue publicly. But with how things were going, I was unsure I would be taken seriously and if anything would change if I would have reported it privately.

The latest incident showed me that after a reply that was more than adequate in my opinion, people wanted evidence and weren't satisfied with just a statement that they would improve and prevent e-mail addresses from being shared unexpectedly. From my point of view, this mainly shows a lack of trust, trust of a company I personally adore, and which has made this great site we all love to use.

I think this has all culminated in a negative spiral on meta. The more we get ignored, the more strongly and negatively we seem to respond, which in turn makes it harder to listen and respond adequately, which makes us get ignored even more.

Looking to the future, I can only hope SE will be more involved on meta and the ongoing discussions. I certainly hope we can go back to a situation where we can trust that SE will adequately respond to issues we raise as a community, even if they don't have to in order to stop the outrage.

I do hope people will grant SE the benefit of the doubt here. It's difficult to win back trust, but please try to assume good faith, and don't make this harder than it needs to be. Please don't go into a yes/no discussion.

And please, keep the legal stuff off MSO. If you truly believe SE is breaking a law, either assume they will handle it adequately, or mail [email protected], the whole IANAL + wildly different opinions on the legality of things is just not productive.

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    Regarding "not taking action on feature requests": an employee explained in a blog post that the fact that the company had used to implement what the community asked was an illusion, "For better or worse, the features established users most appreciate tended to come from developers pounding them out in their unallocated time.". Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:19
  • 2
    Oh, I see this may appear a bit ranty. Many of these actions were entirely justified and understandable, they just didn't help communication on meta, I'm just attempting to illustrate how it got this way. This is not meant to dig up old skeletons, just meant to say that communication has gone downhill, and it's probably time to change course, but we must try and stay positive for that to occur.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 20:42
  • 41
    "A strong statement by someone who wasn't involved in the community, nor was present on meta, or had discussed this in any way in advance, posted on a blog with no option to reply to it." I believe this can't ever have enough emphasis. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 23:01
  • 6
    So, uh, Jay kind of has a lot of presence on meta, and has been pretty in tune with the community for a while. He was here a ton when the only meta was mSO. I do wish the metas hadn't split so that the disconnect didn't exist between MSE and mSO, but nonetheless it does exist. That doesn't mean the user you are referencing doesn't have a rather large presence there. meta.stackexchange.com/users/147336/jaydles ...
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 23:11
  • 7
    Very well written, and matches my own impressions of what has happened on the site. IMO the backlash on the Amazon thing would have been way less heated if it wasn't coming off the heels of so many other communications issues.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 23:16
  • 21
    @TravisJ Jay had a lot of presence on MSE. He posted two answers in 2018, 3 in 2017, and no questions in both these years. And 0 posts on MSO in the last two years. I've joined in 2017, so I sort-of haven't seen him at all. He may very well have been actively involved in the past, but I just can't consider him involved or present based on his contributions in the past two years. I may not have worded it well as he might do important things and be involved behind the scenes, just not visibly, and that made this a communication issue imo.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 8:20
  • 21
    I do not like to pile on, but probably in your list, you forgot that the community before the welcoming push had just finished with the Documentation failure. Lots of effort from us all to no use.The frustration level was already fairly high. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 9:27
  • @PetterFriberg stack overflow is very good at question and answers. It cannot cover all the bases.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 10:22
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    @YvetteColomb I'm not sure how that's relevant. Petter's point (which I wholeheartedly agree with) might be that the Documentation project was plagued from the start by lack of communication. We were never told what they wanted us to build. They said "It's a thing called 'documentation', it contains examples and snippets, go do your thing". Which we did but everyone had a different interpretation for what the end product is supposed to be. It caused huge chaos and ultimately jaded and frustrated contributors. That's also when the now-usual "were are listening! [no we aren't]" sessions started. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 11:42
  • 2
    It's not a communication problem. It's a values problem. (And no, I don't mean they're greedy.)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 12:36
  • 2
    Full year? It's around 4 years straight now.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 13:46
  • It's interesting to look back now at these early-2019 posts...we had no idea how much worse it could get.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 21:30
31

The core problem causing friction between Stack Overflow the company and its veteran users on Meta is a simple lack of trust from the users' side. That trust has been eroded by years of failure to add requested features, years of making out those users to be the problem, years of forcing unwanted changes: in general, years of ignoring the users who are most invested in this site.

What compounds this problem is a second problem, namely that Stack Overflow the company doesn't seem particularly interested in acting to regain that trust. I don't like to call people out, but in all honesty…Tim Post is part of this problem, because I see a lot of long flowery answers from him, and not much actual change. At this point, he's not helping, he's merely adding to the aggravation. There's an old saying that goes "put up or shut up"; Stack Overflow has done very little putting but a whole lot of talking, and its veteran users are so very tired of that.

Then there's the fact that Stack Overflow the company seems to stagger from one PR disaster to another, again without fixing the problems that caused those disasters; the email address leak is merely the most recent example of this. And again, what's galling about these disasters is not that they occur, but how competently they're dealt with—or not, as the case seems to be.

Programming is a meritocracy: programmers admire competency and people who act instead of talking. And Stack Overflow the company seems to be incompetence, covered up with talk, i.e. exactly the opposite. Is it any wonder there is a lack of respect, and therefore trust, from veteran users?

If we want Meta to become more enjoyable and less toxic place, Stack Overflow the company needs to stop resting on its laurels and actually start delivering on the things that have long been promised. It really is that simple.

If that is done, Meta will naturally become a far happier place because its users will see that things are actually getting done, which will start to mend the trust relationship with Stack Overflow the company, which will cause users to be less likely to be in "attack mode" when they hit up Meta, which will result in more constructive discourse.

The solution is in Stack Overflow's hands. Whether the will to implement it is, remains to be seen.

On a personal note: Yvette, your posts regarding how to fix things are so much more useful and show so much more understanding of this community than anything that Stack Overflow the company has ever brought out, that it is always a joy for me to read them, and always a bitter taste in my mouth when I know that someone like you who actually gives a damn is not in a position to effect the change that you understand is needed.

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  • 1
    I appreciate the points you make here (and thank you for the compliment). Your take on the situation is understandable given everything. This is what I'm trying to remedy within our community. I can't speak for the Community Managers, but from what I've observed on the sites, the CMs are pretty tired also. They're all aware of this posts and the answers. I feel confident that we can work this out. So many of us love this site. I like/don't like the feeling of change. But one thing's for sure, we need to restore our community and CM good will to get past this. .../
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 8:07
  • /... I feel confident that we will get there. Linking this as a goto place for the Network to use as a guide also.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 8:07
  • 5
    Thanks for this - I've been thinking along the same lines (incompetence) the last few days... I do have to wonder whether the announced new hires in the "be nice" initiative (mostly marketing/feel good one would think, rather than people with technical savvy/competence) have contributed to the recent email problems. It would be nice if the efforts would go into technical improvements rather than gift-giving IMO Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 10:12
  • 2
    eh, i generally like Tim's responses. Most of them seem pretty thoughtful and made with care, even if i don't necessarily agree with all of them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 16:35
  • 17
    They’re always very well written, compassionate where appropriate, sensitive, whatever, but they don’t accomplish anything. It’s always “I hear you”, or “good point”, or “yeah we messed that up”, but does any useful change come out of it? No disrespect to Tim intended, I feel like he’s just putting out the flames as best as he’s able. Putting out a forest fire with the watering can that SE gave him, so to speak.
    – Clive
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 17:09
  • 3
    Can I upvote just the portion from the bold paragraph to the end?
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 19:17
  • 2
    Its like people are in a failed marriage with Stack Overflow. There isn't really anyone else out there for them so they stick around, but are increasingly more annoyed by everything the other does. That begs the question: how long do you wait until you finally sign divorce papers?
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 10:46
  • 1
    @Gimby It's made harder by the fact that you run into your spouse on a near-daily basis at work, and they are so often able to help you with a problem you have.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 17:43
  • 5
    In all fairness, people like Tim seem to be the ones who are told to go take all the crap from the community, for decisions that are taken by people further up in the hierarchy.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 13:55
21

I've been active on SO for a decade but I only post in meta once every year or so. So I can share a perspective as a relative newbie here, as well as some ideas about how to make meta better for all.

I think a big challenge for meta is that the UX patterns and interpersonal habits that work well for Q&A on the main site don't necessarily map perfectly to the topics being discussed on meta. We're using an SE platform that's optimized for one purpose (efficient, impersonal, reusable Q&A) and using it for another purpose: open-ended discussion of feature requests, clarifications of sometimes-ambiguous guidelines, giving feedback on site changes, requests for moderation advice, support FAQ, and a host of other topics that are often opinion-based and/or require back and forth discussion.

The features that make SO a better platform for Q&A--like intentionally de-emphasizing comments or an emphasis on wordless up/down voting as the primary feedback mechanism--work incredibly well for finding the "best answer" quickly and scalably...for questions that have a "best answer". But for topics that don't fit the Q&A/best-answer model, like many meta questions, the same features that make SO great can also make meta feel hostile and impersonal, especially to folks like me who don't post here often.

Beyond the site UX itself, we've all built up habits over years as SO contributors that may not be as helpful here on meta. In SO, good contributions are brief, impersonal, accurate, and as non-opinionated as possible. Good contributors on SO will instinctively and aggressively prune the site of bad content via downvotes, editing, and flagging.

But these habits--which are critical to SO's scalability--may make it harder to have a successful community here on meta when topics are more opinion-based. People usually feel more strongly about opinions than facts which leads to more voting and especially more downvoting. People are likely to take negative feedback about their opinions more personally than, for example, being downvoted for a technical mistake. Finally, many opinions are messy-- they often require nuance, clarification, or discussion to make a more persuasive or clearer case. Downvoting and flagging can often interfere with that process of improvement.

More personally, I've only posted on meta twice in the last year. I'll share my experience:

  • A few months ago I asked a meta question to get moderation advice before responding to an SO user. Although my post got 5 upvotes, it also got 7 downvotes which is more downvotes than any other post I'd made on SO in 10 years.
  • A month later I responded to a question asking for feedback on a site change. This post got 8 upvotes and 21 (!!!) downvotes.

Both of these posts were good-faith efforts to be helpful to the SO community, but the experience of being barraged with downvotes--when I was just trying to help and was eager to improve whatever problems were in these posts!--was not enjoyable and made me less likely to want to post on meta in the future.

BTW, I'm really not interested in re-litigating those two posts. My point is simply to provide concrete "didn't go well" examples as a transition to discussing possible ways to make things better in the future.

I've done enough complaining, so here's a few suggestions:

  • Consider special treatment for "high-up/high-down" posts. A post that gets zero upvotes and 5 downvotes is a really different thing from a post that gets 20 downvotes and 15 upvotes. The former probably means the post is crappy. The latter probably means that the post evoked passionate reactions. But the current UX is the same for both: a big red "-5" which makes the poster feel bad. How about an alternate UX treatment for these kinds of posts? One easy idea would be to auto-expand the up/down vote icons if the post exceeds a threshold of total votes (e.g. >10 votes) and if the up vs. down ratio is relatively far from the edge (e.g. >25% and <75%). Seeing the auto-expanded up/down icons would be a clear signal that it's a post that got people excited, not that the poster is a dummy.

  • Consider re-thinking the upvote/downvote workflow on meta sites. On SO, a downvote usually means "this answer is wrong" or "this question is kinda useless and should be removed". This is a very strong signal and, to SO's credit, is usually an accurate representation of the objective quality of the content. But on meta, votes often mean "I agree/disagree with this idea" which is a subtly different thing-- and in particular it makes downvotes more likely because the threshold to disagree on Meta is often a lot lower than the threshold of technical inaccuracy on SO. Given that up/down (especially down) votes often have a different meaning on Meta (vs. SO), should there be different voting UX too? A simple approach would simply change the icons to emphasize the difference, e.g. making the upvote icon larger and the downvote one smaller or not red. A more in-depth change could be moving to a feedback scheme on Meta that allows for more than just two binary choices (like Facebook and Github and Slack do).

  • Slow down voting to allow for clarifications and discussion One thing I've noticed from my admittedly small sample set of meta posts is that it's easy to collect a lot of downvotes on posts that, when I dig into the comments, turned out to be interpreted differently than I'd intended. By the time I go back and clarify my post to address comments, the downvote mob has moved on. Contrast this to regular SO where there's usually many fewer commenters/voters on new questions, so it's easy to fix up a confusing post before it's too late. Can we do something on meta to slow down the barrage of voting so that posters have a chance to clarify and improve their posts before they get buried in downvotes?

  • Tag-specific workflows? Meta sites have different categories of topics: bug reports, feature requests, moderation help, etc. Except for tag colors, I believe that we use the same exact UX for all of these. Should there be a more differentiated experience that might improve post quality in these areas? For example, GitHub offers custom templates for new issues which high-volume repos use to improve issue quality. Would it be helpful for meta to have a bug report template, a feature request template, etc? Or should some tags trigger a structured (not free-form) form for data entry, like some issue trackers do, which might enable back-end tools to use the structured data more efficiently?

Anyway, that's just a few ideas. Hope this perspective and/or these ideas are helpful.

BTW, I really love SO. Haters gonna hate, but SO is IMHO the best thing that's happened to software development in the last 20 years. Thank you all!

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    The fatal flaw of Meta is that upvotes and downvotes are overloaded in the sense that they mean one of several totally different things that are even at odds with one another. I'm sure a lot of regulars here have struggled with the dilemma of upvoting a useful discussion or downvoting out of disagreement.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 8:14
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    Justin: Gobsmacked. Love your ideas and sharing your experience. @JeremyBanks agree, the network will need to shore up on some of these before many people will trust again.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 8:41
  • 3
    I agree with the issues of our voting culture as well. While at first they seem to be well founded and enable us to push opinions up for the attention they deserve, the overloaded meaning of upvotes and downvotes makes them harder to reason about, by both new and veteran users here.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 9:12
  • @E_net4 for me the excessive downvotes often herald that there will be a pile on of negative comments. That makes it even harder to cope with.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 9:50
  • 3
    At least the vote tooltips are different on meta (useful vs not useful) ... Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 12:30
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    Down votes on meta doesn't necessarily mean that your question is bad, they are used to voice disagreement. They don't affect your rep. Hang around long enough and you'll eventually end up with something that gets shot down with -50 votes or so :) Which would never happen on the main site. But well, one may argue why we need votes on meta to begin with, instead of implementing an ordinary poll system that could be called upon when actually needed.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 22, 2019 at 14:01
12

You seem to have written this post with some relation to my recent question about how Stack Overflow was handling a serious mistake about user data handling (at least, it did trigger you decision on posting it).

So, it seems that you may have some idea that the reason I posted it is because of some sort of dynamic against SO and the new dynamics with the welcoming policy and other stuff. This, I feel, is not correct. In the particular case of the question I posted, I would say it has happened in the opposite direction.

Let me explain, and for that let me use the question linked as an example.

Clearly there has been some people throwing hatred in the comments. Perhaps more than the usual? Perhaps it has increased since the welcoming policy? Possibly, I am not going to get into it, you may be right and meta has starting to be a quite more aggressive place. I would not know, because I genuinely do not spend too much time here and I mostly agree with the overall idea of being nicer and more welcome (even if perhaps often I fail to show it).

I am saying all this to be very clear: There is no hidden message in my question about data handling by SO. This has become something important in my life and I hope that anyone reading this agrees with me (or at least accepts) that an apology from a corporation is worth nothing, even if the corporation is HappyCandyWeMakeEveryoneHappy corp, or some other corporation that we might trust fully, in this case, Stack Exchange. I personally do trust SO a lot, and I believe it genuinely makes the world a better place. So I was very disappointed when after a severe mistake, an apology and a promise to be better was the only response. Some may argue that this is enough, and they indeed have, in the original post. I just felt it wasn't thus I asked the question, no ulterior motive.

And it happened that a huge amount of people, including you, and the person employed by SO to communicate with users happened to label me as hateful, entitled, and troll. Clearly the negative answer lead to people interpreting my original intent negatively. Not only that, but the answer to my question has been locked, and there were very genuinely good comments and ideas there to discuss, as a community that collaborates with the company, and vice-versa.

So yes, I do have a problem with how ideas are communicated in meta, but towards the users. The fact that a question about how the company is fixing a problem they caused starts with "oh you must hate me" from an employer is a really bad symptom of a huge problem of this community, considering it was built on the basis of users having an important say on how things are done.

I hope we can get better at communicating, and that includes me.


However, I understand your side too. There is certainly a lot of bad feels against SO and how a lot of things are handled. People are mad, and its easy to be rude in the Internet. I agree with you that the entire tone of the webpage should relax a bit and people (including me) should read what they type three times before posting it.

My point with the above text is to be very clear: moderators and staff are also responsible for this tone down, even more than users I would say. Users will mimic the attitude of the people that represent SO or have power on SO.

And I believe the post linked is a clear example that the problem with attitude comes from both sides.


Note 1: I love SO. It's the best page in the frigging Internet and I wish it the best. I love how the company has handled everything and I think there is a genuinely good will with anyone behind the page and moderators.

Note 2: This is not a personal attack on anyone nor it is intended to be. I ask respect for anyone involved, we are all humans, and we all sometimes get mad/offended/upset. Please if you read this, do not take it against anyone involved.

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    to be clear. I have planned on writing something like this for months. Honestly, but it's perfectly reasonable for your response and that's also why I posted this. I want people to be able to air these things, without a huge messy comment thread that doesn't solve things. does that make sense?
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:08
  • 4
    Where can I buy some stock in HappyCandyWeMakeEveryoneHappy corp? I think they're going to go far. But joking aside I appreciate your candor about your reactions, and even when your question was filled with answers and comments misinterpreting your intentions, you maintained a cool head which helped keep things from escalating more. Your answer here is very through in explaining your view without provoking people, and I just wanted to point out I appreciate your way of reacting to all this.
    – Davy M
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:11
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    @YvetteColomb yes it does make sense an dI think you are right by posting this. You discuss how we communicate in meta, and I think the linked post is a good example of something that I think is bad. Everyone seem to be assuming bad intentions and thats bad, but when the people who own the page/have rights over it assume bad intentions, then its worse! I know you did not mean bad, and I may have assumed the same in your case, but we should be better. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:12
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    @AnderBiguri exactly! it was in that discussion with you I saw what you were trying to say and you were a victim in that also. People pile on and things get out of hand quickly.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:17
  • 4
    I read it as mostly being about the the April Wensel incident, not so much about your post. But that is just my interpretation. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:27
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    @PeterMortensen fair, just answering the question about communication in meta using my post. Wanted to add my two cents. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:38
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    the lock on the post is not permanent, it's 24 hours, to stop abusive comments (that have been deleted). Sometimes a temporary lock will slow things down, give people time to sleep on it and calm down
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 18:41
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    At this point this issue has just devolved into a tactful version of "our lawyers, who are actual lawyers, disagree with your lawyers, who are, by your own admission, not actual lawyers. If you want to argue with actual lawyers, please go ahead." and the response being "IANAL, but you're wrong, you've committed every crime known to man and an apology won't cut it, you should be literally executed." (I'm exaggerating, but sadly only slightly) I don't really see how any constructive discussion can be had with those starting points. People are well past facts... Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 22:45
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    @TemporalWolf Or, alternatively, and more realistically, I was interested into knowing how this things are handled to asses how much information I am comfortable sharing. But I already commented this multiple times in my original post and it seems that people refuse to acknowledge that my concern can be real. IANAL, nor I want to be, nor I want to be involved in anything close to a legal conversation. Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 23:48
  • 1
    You have a very strange strategy, for someone who doesn't "want to be involved in anything close to a legal conversation.", of choosing your topics. If really you desire not to have a legal conversation, maybe don't ask questions where the whole premise is a legal concern? Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 23:55
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    @AnderBiguri What response are you looking for from a question that boils down to "What actions are being taken [to prevent future occurrences] after you transferred personal data to a GDPR-compliant third party in accordance with the privacy policy I agreed to?" Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're concerned with your data being potentially mishandled in the future. That's a completely reasonable concern. The problem is the core basis for that concern, that this issue is an example of a breach/leak/whatever you want to call it, is not supported by facts. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 0:39
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    FYI to improve our lock feature meta.stackexchange.com/questions/324214/…
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 1:58
  • 4
    @Felix TemporalWolf apologies but i feel that i have nothing else to add. The entire premise of your concerns with me seem to be that i act with some sort of malice. I already defended that but you dont agree. Sorry to hear that. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 8:04
  • 1
    @Ander what are you talking about? There is nothing, either here in my comments, or in my answer on your question, that hints about malice on your end. Nothing really. My concern is the incoherence between what you say and reality, and the demagogic ways of your comments and question. At no point have I presumed malice on your end. That is not what the words I have used mean, by any stretch. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 13:36
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    @DavyM "[...] even when your question was filled with answers and comments misinterpreting your intentions" Are you (partly) referring to my answer over there? Genuinely curious, I'm reading it time and again, and I fail to read interpreted intentions, let alone misinterpreted ones. I can't see anything about intentions actually, except maybe the "unfair" word, and that's a very long stretch. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 13:42
12

Modest contributor to Stack Overflow 2 cents opinion here

  • I have not been contributing to main/meta here for a very long time (~2 years), and not very actively either (so maybe my vision is more "fresh and naive" than some others)

  • I feel like a member of the community anyway (participated in some elections, cleaning queues, answering, interested in the data analysis posts, interested in meta...)

  • I'm glad that so much discussion happens in meta, even if many of them don't go further than that. I understand change of a established site / app is hard to do properly. I would appreciate more feedback from Stack Overflow team itself on bug reports and feature requests, though.

  • I felt the need to be "more welcoming" when I was a really newer member. I guess it was for my second or third question, it got bashed in votes and comments at the beginning. It ended on a slightly positive note eventually, after some rounds of refinement and moderator intervention for comments, but that amazed me anyway. So, the welcoming thing was at least an attempt to solve a deep issue, I'm glad it happened, even though its effects will or will not be noticeable, and measuring them will be hard anyway.

  • [added] I don't think any "more welcoming" thing is needed on meta. The simple fact that downvotes on meta don't cause harm to reputation nor ban is enough for me. It's normal to have more emotional / "political" / opinionated talks here, it's meta for organizing and moderation volunteering, completely different from the main site.

  • From the start, the fact that most trolling / aggressive behavior is quickly taken care of is the main sign that Stack Overflow strives to be a quality-first place, along with the strong constraints of "on-topicness" (even if there is and always will be debate on what is on-topic and what is not). I always had, and still have, the strong impression that Stack Overflow is the place where you exchange rationally on a specific question. This has been my impression for many years, since I started using it as a simple anonymous, finding answers to my question and then losing 2 hours of my student day reading hot network questions and the related ones, without feeling that my time was lost filtering lots of rudeness, non-constructive and other Godwin-point-level comments, while it was not the case on many other sites. I still think Stack Overflow is a safe place for knowledge.

  • Creating a community will mechanically enable "clans", opinion currents to emerge, long-running-cynical-6-to-8-weeks-too-old jokes, but hey, as a member of a small non-profit at my place, I can only say that this will automatically happens. Get on with it, don't be bothered too much. Keep on trying hard.

Lots of small hands are acting positively and are quite content with the result, they are just silent. In the part of the community which is more involved in the meta discussions, proposals and so on, it's normal (as in "it will happen anyway") that there is more debate and exhaustion.

3
  • This is interesting to have a completely different take on the situation. It does help to put things into perspective, as we're only a small percentage who are highly active on meta.
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 9:51
  • @YvetteColomb yes, this was exactly my intent when I wrote this answer! Maybe too "don't worry be happy" hippy-like, but I have sometimes felt some exhaustion in the tone of some well-established meta- contributors.
    – Pac0
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 9:56
  • Yes there is definitely that - exhaustion
    – user3956566
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 10:16
4

I can't speak to all of the points but I can speak about my experiences and realizations on meta:

Meta poorly represents controversial issues

  • I regularly see posts that are -20 (+10/-30) which means 25% of people agree with the post, despite it being very negative at face value. That score is then used to dismiss the idea via appeals to tradition/the masses despite that answer obviously not being far out in left field. One of the posts linked in this topic has +100 (+171/-71) which means nearly 30% of people who voted disagree with it's content, but the net is positive, so it's "well received" and you have to go out of your way to find out how controversial it is. (I think Justin Grant covered this pretty well, along with some excellent suggestions)
  • Posts that consider both sides of an issue are rare: very few posts include caveats, limitations, or anything which may shed doubt on their core premise... this leads to dogmatic answers. This was especially concerning (and mildly ironic) with the recent "IANAL, but [legal opinion with little or no legal basis which I will defend dogmatically in the comments]" Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with SO, it's entirely upon the users, us.
  • There is an emphasis on who's right, rather than which ideas are best. This obscures the issues and leads inevitably conflict.

Meta has a vocal minority of core users

The top x people generate a huge amount of largely valuable content... but that comes with some issues:

  • Groupthink is pretty strong on meta - I've seen issues dismissed as "that's not how we do things/the mission" instead of challenging them based on relative merit. This is the antithesis to constructive discussion.
  • The vocal minority (I suspect/hope unintentionally) suppresses competing ideas via pile on. I've seen people say they won't post an answer because they know it will be downvoted into oblivion... and others who have said they shouldn't have bothered posting or subsequently deleted their posts. They are not responsible for the negativity of meta's voting, but they do contribute to the next issue
  • Negative comments are frequently added which add little to no value to the conversation: "This is wrong" (with no explanation or reasoning) is exactly what a downvote conveys, but often leads to protracted verbal fights, which to me at least makes meta seem like a very hostile place. People don't have protracted positive threads.
  • There are "unwritten rules" which govern the discussion, enforced by those who identify as core users. This puts new contributors at a distinct disadvantage and allows for their ideas to be dismissed as out of hand. I'm hold a very negative view of unwritten rules, but that's a discussion for another day.

Change and criticism is hard

  • People tend to feel personally attacked when these issues are brought up, and I think that's a completely normal response. It's hard to separate oneself from a group with which you identify. We saw this issue with The Welcoming and it isn't going to go away anytime soon.
  • Emotions rule these discussions. Facts and figures aren't going to get us anywhere. We've seen in the last week people will just disregard them if they don't fit with their beliefs. Someone who feels like their data could be compromised doesn't care whether it's "technically" a violation of GDPR (although that may aggravate their concern), they want to have that fear placated, and they believe that it is. Only by challenging that frame of reference will you be able to move past it... and that's not an easy thing to do even one on one.
  • I am not trying to pin one person or one comment and say "That's what is wrong with Meta, get 'em!" I've made poor contributions in the past as well, I'm not perfect. But neither is Meta. "Core users" are not the embodiment of virtue. Nor are they the sole problem. They do a lot of good, but that doesn't absolve them of taking responsibility for their negative contributions. Because of their disproportionate volume of input, they also disproportionately produce negative output, even if their negative rate is substantially lower.

The core issues here are rooted in human psychology, and neither the community nor SO are going to be able to "fix" them. The best we, as a community, can hope to do is try to do better. For SO, their contribution is a tool which, in it's current form, aggravates the issue. It doesn't cause it.

Ultimately, I don't have answers on how to fix half these issues, and I have no doubt people will disagree with some or all of these points, but until we have the discussion we're not going to make any progress.

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    IANAL but I'll defend dogmatically that this is a good answer ...
    – rene
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:05
  • 4
    I kinda feel like this is just aimed at the whole email thing - I'm gonna lay this out there. Some people who kept fanning the flames should've been put on time-out. A lot of that was unnecessary and it isn't like they weren't entitled to an opinion, but when tempers flared, a few people should've just been removed from the conversation at that point since they weren't capable of being constructive.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:15
  • 1
    On further inspection, I find myself somewhat paralyzed by this answer - I can neither refute nor agree with it. Yes, there is a vocal minority of users on Meta. Yes, there is groupthink - kind of unavoidable in this setting, honestly. But I'm really not sure how objective you're being in this assertion. Emotion reigns supreme in communication, but it's important to never lose sight of perspective. I don't think your answer has much in the way of perspective...
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:26
  • 1
    I kinda got lost in that last bullet... it looks like you're talking about the vocal minority (veteran users), and about how much negativity they produce... are we looking at the same site? or am i misinterpreting?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:31
  • @Makoto I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at, so I'd welcome clarification if you're willing. That being said, I think the most recent email issue is indicative of a lot of these things, which is why I included it. Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:32
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    @KevinB If I produce twenty times the average output, and I'm ten times less likely to produce negative output, I'm still producing twice as much negative output as the average. Is that clearer? The rate is much lower but the volume ends up higher. Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:34
  • The email issue is a problem unto itself. It is worth its own, separate analysis, which would also include a threshold of "why didn't people get a time-out moment for continuing to bash the company even AFTER they apologized and clarified what they'd do next" amongst the moderators. You raise other points which I'd like to respond to but can't exactly conjure up the words right now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:35
  • 1
    What negative output though? I mean, yes, there's a few bad apples, or people who are having a bad day, but things don't look that dire around here to me.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:35
  • 1
    @Makoto I'm not convinced that would have generated a better outcome: even if justified, I'd expect it to only aggravate the issue: "Why is SO deleting/blocking people who want to talk about this issue? Is there a coverup?" That being said, it's conjecture, so I can't be certain for or against. Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:39
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  • @KevinB That's fair, it may help to soften the answer, as I'm not trying to imply these are dire circumstances. But I have regularly seen appeals to tradition, pile on and nonconstructive negative comments, even from high rep users... and those are the sorts of things which make meta a negative place for me. Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 22:43
  • 1
    "But their emails".jpg Commented Feb 21, 2019 at 23:25
  • You can't evaluate whether something works unless you have a goal to target. That's what "the mission" is: a goal. When SO started, it stated its goal very clearly: to be a repository of high quality information about programming. It was made clear that all the moderation efforts were created to further this goal. I see discussions all the time about being practical about achieving that goal on Meta; rarely do I see a post that isn't in some way tying its arguments into that goal. I think you are simply dismissing this mission, rather than understanding the goal these users are advocating for.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 9:57
  • 2
    The fact that SO is trying to abandon that mission is a key source of frustration for users who believe in it. Even more frustrating, they won't just come out and say so. They won't do so because they know that it will damage the site enormously, by demotivating many of their most active and dedicated users. This "have your cake and eat it too" approach by SO isn't hard to pick up on, though, so most users realize it, at least unconsciously. This makes tensions rise, leading to escalating disagreements and even more frustration as the concerns of these users continue to go completely ignored.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 9:59
-8

I feel like there's something missing here. One of the posts that led to this discussion was a question which boils down to:

SO violated user privacy, I want an update.

Oh yes, that sparked another discussion, maybe hatred, definitly a lot of noise.

So what? What's the first rule for emotional "discussions"?

Do not engage! Stay with the facts, answer the question, ignore the rest.

Let's look at what SO did:

I'm feeling a whole lot of hate here.

[...]

And they seriously wondering why they got more emotional discussion?

So, after reading an hour worth of posts and comments, I extracted the actual answer to the question:

We are sorry. We do not believe this is a data breach in the GDPR-sense, because we have a business case for sharing that data. We have therefore not reported it to the authorities. However, we understand we shouldn't have done this. We are currently reviewing our processes.

What they could have added and done (I don't know what they did, they still haven't told us):

Marketing and everyone else has been explicitly forbidden to share anything with anyone about any users unless having prepared a documentation as to why, how, what. We are further doing xyz and abc. We have contacted Amazon and told them to delete the e-mail adresses. We have checked the request for compliance. Etc.

Or

You'll get another update on March 14th.

Anyone can then link to that answer everytime the issue comes up. Further factual questions arising can be answered accordingly.

And another note, the argument hey, we are also people comes up a few times from SO. And that's right. Except, it's not. When representing StackOverflow, employees are not people, they are the face of a corporation. A big entitity with considerable power over our data. If a discussion over SO's usage of private data hurts feelings, then we have a problem! Because do you know what hurt people do not do? Consider all facts and do the right thing.

So, when it comes down to solving problems, what we, well me anyways, want, is a clear, factual, statement. An apology too, but a statement by StackOverflow. Not by some employee with hurt feelings. Don't get me wrong, I get those discussions can be hurtful and get personal, but that doesn't belong into an answer about a data breach. And if it's put in there, don't be surprised if the response is more emotions.

TL;DR:

My suggestion for SO, filter out the facts and actual questions, answer them, don't feed the trolls. A question beeing repeated is not a sign of hatred but of a missing answer (be it hidden or incomplete).

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    On that post - sure, there was a lot of emotion, but honestly? It's a legal question. Harping the staff after the fact when they admitted the oopsie isn't all that constructive to begin with. The chief fact: it's a legal question and you can refer your legal questions to the legal department. Anything else? All that's doing is attempting to soothe the angry mob which still seems to want to shout.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 17:02
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    It's a catch-22: if SO uses emotion they are bringing emotion into the discussion and that's what's causing the problem. If they are dispassionate and stick to the facts, they are uncaring/dismissive and that's what's causing the problem. At some point, you have to look in the mirror and consider it may not be SO making a mountain out of a molehill: claiming something is a data breach does not make it so. Commented Feb 20, 2019 at 18:58

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