98

Given that it seems to be "airing of grievances" season on Meta right now...

My impression over the past 4-5 years or so has been that the core Q&A engine has certainly seen a lot of small improvements, but no major overhauls to address some of the persistent pain points - the handling of duplicates, for example, or the increasing difficulty for experts to discover challenging and interesting questions on Stack Overflow. This was certainly not for a lack of suggestions and ideas from the community.

Some have asserted that SO is too interested in developing new products (not all beloved by everyone) at the expense of caring for the core engine. Now that may be an unfair criticism, but looking from the outside in, it certainly looks that way sometimes.

Does SO, Inc. believe that the system is largely fine as it is, and incremental improvements are all that is needed?

That's not necessarily an unreasonable view to take, mind. It looks like the place is generating enough money to keep the lights on - and keeping up the status quo is a valid proposition when you have 200+ mouths and investors to feed. (Although some, of course, would say that way lies certain eventual death.)

Or does it believe major changes to the core Q&A system are needed? If yes - care to share? Is there a roadmap?

If there is any activity around these areas that we (or I) just don't know about - even if it's just thinking about the problems SO has - can you make it more public?

Is there any point for the community to work out radical suggestions around core Q&A that go beyond cosmetics?

Or is this a waste of time, and any major ideas should be left to the product team to develop and the community to critique once they are rolled out?

Because that's what it looks like to this former long-time contributor - although it's perhaps for the best really: after all, we all have plenty of things to take care of ourselves.

It's still a bit sad, though.

20
  • 2
    Seeing how pretty much any change request/suggestion here is met mostly with flak (arguably even valid flak), I think revamping the whole thing from the ground up is a difficult proposition, especially through a community participation approach. I'd love to see an alternative stab at the whole Q&A angle, but that would probably have to come from an entirely different direction (read: different site altogether) which would have to go through the same growing pains as SO already has. So, while interested, I'm somewhat pessimistic this is possible at all.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:13
  • 10
    I agree with you here. This has been sitting here for almost 2 years without a single peep from the devs Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:13
  • 2
    Yeah. I'm waiting for someone in charge to respond to this. And while this is solidly status-declined it pissed me off to no end that no one official even took the time to respond to the question and explain why it wouldn't be implemented. Still harboring kind of a grudge over that.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:34
  • @NathanOliver afaik they did something meta.stackoverflow.com/a/324210/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:42
  • 17
    There were some remarks made in pod-casts, hard to document, that startled me. A while ago, Spolsky kept it no secret that last round of VC money was going to spent on the company's bottom-line, careers. Pretty visible. Just recently he remarked "there is no problem". They took down a banner in the office that read something like "screw experts-exchange.com". Seems the site is operating along Spolsky's vision, they perhaps target Yahoo Answers now. These kind of complaints generally come from domain experts, the site doesn't really need them anymore. Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:42
  • 33
    Getting an answer together for you that's shorter than the Iliad, will try to get it out today. The answer is yes. But there's a lot of internal stuff going on, how we structure development teams has completely changed, business goals that we have to meet, and then there's people that still need to be hired. I'll try to make it as uncomplicated and not boring as possible, but I don't want to say "Yeah, but it's going to be a bit of a while" without explaining why.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:44
  • 8
    Thank you for posting this. I've been playing with this question in my head for a while, but didn't quite now how to put it into words.
    – user247702
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:03
  • 16
    Just to put in a positive note: my job sees me interact on other sites as well which try to mimic the SO/SE Q&A model. The utter frustration this involves and the absolutely unmanageable horrible mess it has turned into, without anyone listening to any suggestions at all, made me realize how good we have it here. It's by no means perfect, but boy is the grass a shitty shade of brown on the other side of the fence.
    – Bart
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:14
  • 1
    @Bart yeah, it must be super difficult to pull off at all, something to bear in mind. I honestly don't know if I could do it. Shog's answer here is very relevant.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:17
  • 1
    @JoshCaswell You do have an answer from Shog on your "reward finding duplicates" suggestion yup - that's why I cleverly added "in charge". :P The idea was Shog's originally (I just wrote it out as a feature request) but it doesn't seem to have found any traction within the company.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:19
  • 8
    "how good we have it here" Journeyman Geek made this point recently as well. The fact that the company actively supports a place to allow us to grouse at them endlessly is pretty fluffing incredible.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:28
  • 29
    I don't think the problem is that core, fundamental changes to the entire system are necessary and not implemented. The problem is that even the small, iterative improvements, aren't happening. Heck, in Triage the guidelines still say that people should mark a post as "requires editing" if the author could fix it into a good question. That's just flat wrong advice. It was pointed out when the feature was still in beta and yet, years later, it's still there, constantly causing problems. Even the trivialest of improvements/fixes simply aren't being made.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:31
  • 5
    @Servy I just checked but those texts are in Transifex which means that the language.SO sites are able to provide better wording for things that are just wrong. That particular change should be possible if SO proper had their texts in Transifex as well and we assigned Peter Mortensen with an account on Transifex while we provide suggestions here on meta. At least we can solve one annoyance then. You write the FR? ;)
    – rene
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 15:04
  • 6
    @ChristianGollhardt: Userscripts, or anything that requires explicit configuration by the enduser, cannot fix wrong information being given out / new users being led into the pit of failure. (I know you weren't suggesting that they could -- but it is important to note that userscripts are not actually, as you claimed, applicable to every feature request that makes sense)
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 5:00
  • 2
    the answer is ---> no, "looks like Stack Exchange team shrinks efforts on serving the needs of site core group..."
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 28, 2018 at 10:52

4 Answers 4

32

TL;DR:

Yes. We currently ship approximately ten smaller features per month for Q&A (mostly comprised of outstanding feature requests that a developer can do in about 1.5 days), but we need to hire a product manager for Q&A before we can take on larger projects.

Now, the answer that I promised would be shorter than The Iliad:

When I was hired at Stack Overflow, there were fewer than 100 people working here. We planned larger projects well in advance, but most new features that got the kind of visibility that comes from many people using them every single day usually started with someone getting inspired by something on Meta, grabbing a developer, and then just building it. Writing a spec mostly meant writing a meta post and adjusting plans based on feedback.

Over 300 people work here now, which means that the number of people that have a stake in changes or additions that we make to any product has gone up considerably. As fun as it was waking up in the morning and saying I think we should find something to ship today — cracks were really beginning to show in our development process. No one quite knew what everyone was doing, which means we didn't always know what we'd need to support them, or what we might be making more difficult for ourselves down the road.

To fix this, we shifted our development structure into product oriented teams. Each team has at least one product manager, several developers, a designer, liaisons from marketing and community growth, and possibly liaisons from other product teams if things need to fit tightly together. This fixes a lot of stuff that was going wrong:

  • Now, there's always at least one person that knows what's going on with every single product that we have in very minute detail.
  • Every other team in the company stays informed on what's happening, and is able to give critical information early enough to avoid mistakes
  • We're finally paying down instead of continuing to accumulate technical debt
  • We can estimate time complexity and cost accurately and actually ship on or ahead of schedule, which is critical when you have business goals that you simply have to meet

Q&A, as a product, currently really needs a PM (wink, wink, anyone?) to push bigger ideas through to new features. Someone needs to own them, to make sure that we don't invest a bit of time in them and then somehow never follow through, and to make sure that we bring a much needed sense of consistency to our most mature product.

But we haven't really stopped, despite not having a PM for Q&A

Something that we're historically kind of bad at doing is communicating the stuff we're doing frequently and consistently. Had we been doing a better job at that, everyone would know that we implement around ten feature requests from around the network every month.

Our operations team, who handles scheduling this stuff with developers, will begin putting out regular updates of what we've been doing which also gives you folks a chance to give some feedback. You can find these updates here.

We select things that we think can make the most people happy, and can also be done in about one to three days by a developer. Or, in other words, something relatively self-contained that doesn't require an elaborate spec, corroboration with many other teams, and doesn't really alter the product itself in any major way.

As I said, Q&A is already very mature product, with a very mature code base

I don't think we'll ever say that we've done all that we can do with Q&A as a product, but the truly meaningful stuff that we can currently identify is really complicated to pull off. Ever worked on a really mature code base? Those things have corners where light hasn't shined in years.

But there are things that have gained momentum (and an appreciable amount of work put into them) such as overhauling the ask question page to help new users better understand what we need from them.

Some rather visible tests on that will be happening around a month from now; this is something we're being rather careful with because it's so incredibly easy to test it the wrong way.

Other stuff supports Q&A

In a business sense and a figurative one. Q&A is always going to be the thing that made us, and set the standard for the level of innovation and quality we put into everything else. And while we monetize Q&A very effectively, well .. eggs and a single basket and stuff.

The work we do on Jobs, and other things we might do in the future helps us continue to grow, and helps us to invest in really hard problems that once solved can make Q&A significantly better, but not really add much to the balance sheets.

What else can I tell you?

I really do want to know. I've been reticent to post a whole lot of blue sky ideas that I've had rattling around and even done some work on because I didn't want to set anyone's expectations incorrectly - none of this stuff can actually get underway until we get a product team for Q&A put back together and they get firmly confident with everything they need to own. But would knowing the stuff we're thinking about now, even with the addendum that it's not going to fly any time soon, help?

Would you appreciate more posts from us that just talk about something that we learned, or something that we're only at this point toying with, and is there a way we can make room for those here on meta?

The first issue that I think we need to fix is that we need to do a better job of communicating, and that starts with identifying the times when we should be doing it.

Because we can't let stuff like this fester and then boil over. And while you boil very politely, I don't really feel good about the fact that you did :)

Ask what you want, I'll be as open as I possibly can.

Did I mention that we're hiring a PM?

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  • 2
    Are there plans/are you working on making dupes easier to find? IMHO if we can make dupe closing easier we could get a lot more questions closed in a timely manner. I know not every question is a dupe but there is a good chance with the knowledge base that has been built here that there is one. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 13:46
  • 2
    @NathanOliver It's a problem that we know we need to solve (along with graceful deprecation of old, highly-scored but now obsolete answers). We have ideas (many of them discussed here for both), what's lacking is really the plan. I see lots of ways of dealing with them once they're in the system being proposed, but I really think the biggest gain is not letting them in so easily to begin with, and that's one of those really hard things I mentioned.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 13:53
  • 7
    Very glad to see that the Ask Question page redesign hasn't been entirely forgotten about. I brought it up here on Meta a while back, and there was some interesting ideas floated by the community. Some of you Community Team folks dropped hints that you were working on it internally and that we should kind of take the "wait and see" approach. 6–8 weeks passed, and now we're at 6–8 months and still waiting to see any sort of activity. I think this is a big priority; anxious to see the fruits.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 13:59
  • 7
    Whoa... SO just hired an extra hundred people in the last hour!
    – Tanner
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 15:05
  • 7
    @Tanner ... and not one of them a PM. Hrmph!
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 15:12
  • 10
    "But would knowing the stuff we're thinking about now, even with the addendum that it's not going to fly any time soon, help?" Yes. "Would you appreciate more posts from us that just talk about something that we learned, or something that we're only at this point toying with, and is there a way we can make room for those here on meta?" Yes and yes.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 1:10
  • 10
    If you need to hire a product manager before you can fix the Triage review guidance, something is wrong with your process. Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 16:46
  • 4
    "We can estimate time complexity and cost accurately and actually ship on or ahead of schedule" Witchcraft! Burn them! Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 17:14
  • 7
    @TimPost: "Q&A, as a product, currently really needs a PM (wink, wink, anyone?)" Hey, I've got an idea: cancel the abject failure that is Docs.SO and reassign that PM to Q&A. If you would stop spending resources like manpower on ideas that have failed, you would have more resources for Q&A. Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 20:09
  • 1
    Thanks for this! It sounds very good. First things first, though: Iliad: 143,317 words. This: 1,037 words. Check! It's been a busy week... give me a couple days to respond to the rest in detail.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 12, 2017 at 19:52
  • I found my way here from a link on another site's meta. Thanks for all the info! I'd love to see more about what y'all are thinking about even if it's not baked yet. I'd especially love to see it on Meta.SE, where curious people from across the network hang out. Commented Mar 7, 2017 at 19:54
22

It is somewhat disheartening not to get some form of official response to suggestions that we as a community make. If as community members we go to the effort of making suggestions, which are sometimes fairly detailed suggestions, just knowing that it was reviewed and assigned some form of status would show that our efforts aren't falling on deaf ears. Even if it's just a polite declined status.

Feature Request Stats: (hacked together very quickly)

Please correct me if I've missed something putting theses together.

@NathanOliver - thanks removed duplicates from the counts.

3698 feature requests on meta in total.

253 feature requests with - 6.8%

178 feature requests with - 4.8%

24 feature requests with - 0.6%

30 feature requests with - 0.8%

I've ignored feature requests with and as in my mind they seem more suited to bugs.

This leaves 3213 feature requests with no official status - 86.8%

Of these: 2501 feature requests have no accepted answer.

Of these request with no accepted answer there are:

875 feature requests with +10 votes

526 feature requests with +25 votes

250 feature requests with +50 votes

65 feature requests with +100 votes

While this quick search doesn't include any commenting that might have gone on between staff/moderators and users, which is often the case, it's still a high number of requests that have no official response.

I can well imagine that it's a pretty hectic job working for SO/SE, and I don't intend this as a dig at anyone, I personally appreciate all of the work you guys do behind the scenes as well as in publicly on the site to keep things in order.

22
  • 8
    relevant: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263662/… it would still be a bit pointless if those 3877 FR's get a hey thanks or we've seen it. Maybe we don't need more FR's but better ones. But I have no idea what better means and I'm not suggesting your FR's aren't good. Maybe the expectation needs to change?
    – rene
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 15:48
  • 1
    You need to remove duplicates from the Of these: 3054 feature requests have no accepted answer. as they will skew the results. Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 15:52
  • @NathanOliver ah yes, good point! down the rabbit hole i go.
    – Tanner
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 15:55
  • 1
    It'd be nice to be able to see the evolution of these numbers over the years, across the entire SE network. This should be possible by looking at all SE data dumps. (It's something I've been very slowly working on and will have finished in 6-8 weeks...)
    – user247702
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 15:57
  • 9
    I'll say that the community team has talked at length about how best to respond to the thousands of features that are across the entire network. Sure, we could comment on them saying 'we've seen it', but that doesn't really do much of anything. I wish we could respond to everything but it's not really feasible.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 16:01
  • 1
    @Tanner It's not quite that simple. Sure, we may have read it but putting a status-read on it doesn't necessarily help or speak to us doing anything with it except having seen it. I can only speak for myself on this. When I read a feature and say 'that's interesting' I don't just say 'let's do it.' I will typically do some research internally on it, some data analysis to figure out impact, and need to determine how much bang for the buck we'd get from it.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 16:36
  • 6
    @bluefeet Well, if the verdict is "that's interesting" and you're doing research and whatnot, is that not what status-review is for? Then once the research is complete, change it to one of the other statuses? But then, I see that there are 23 feature requests with that status, some more than 2 years old... Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 17:14
  • 1
    @bluefeet Maybe SO needs to spend some of that VC money on more help for you CMs :). Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 17:27
  • 8
    FWIW I've stepped into the dilemma bluefeet describes many times. I'd leave a comment along the lines of "yeah, this sounds like a good idea, I agree" and effectively sign myself up for pings from people who both took that as a confirmation that the idea will be implemented, will be implemented soon, and will be implemented by me.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 18:20
  • 7
    @Tun - there is a huge volume, even of newer requests. The OP didn't take into account the 160 child meta's which each also get feature requests. And then there are bugs... all of this needs looking at, prioritized and scheduled. With a limited number of people.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 18:40
  • 4
    @Oded The point we're making is to give some evidence that the prioritization and scheduling is occurring. Meta is the only visibility into what's happening, and we (Meta SO regulars) are passionate about the site and want to see it get even better. We are your champions. Tells us what to expect, and we'll go to bat for you. I think this post indicates that we don't know what to expect. Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 18:47
  • 3
    @MikeMcCaughan I think Tim is planning on touching on some of this in his answer to the question, but we do send weekly requests over to the dev team as changes to the sites. Jon covers some of that in his Year in Review blog post. Most of what we send over are minor things that can be handled by a dev in about a day of work, we are constantly making changes even if they are minor ones.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 18:54
  • 11
    Just to co-sign what bluefeet & Adam have said... I'm the top answerer in the feature-request tag, both here and on MSE, with a ton of comments on top of those answers. Over the past year, only 20 people on the entire network got more inbox messages than me, none of them employees; some days, reading my notifications is literally all I get to. And yet, if you look at the quantity of feature-requests I've touched, I've barely scratched the surface. Every time I touch one of these, no matter how briefly, I'm piling up debt against my future, and the backlog always grows faster.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 19:24
  • 7
    @Shog9 et al... I just want to say that I know you guys do a great and somewhat thankless job with the amount of tasks you undoubtedly have to undertake to look after the sites, I don't in any way mean this as a dig at anyone of you. I see you guys around all of the time, I know how much care and affection you have for this place, as do I.
    – Tanner
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 1:03
  • 3
    Some status-whatever for at least the top feature-request (> 50 votes) shouldn't take so long imho ;) Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 2:47
14

Proposal:

Let the users develop new features, for free, at no risk to Stack Exchange, and prove demand through actual use.

How? Currently, if users want a feature that Stack Exchange doesn't have, they tend to:

  • Make a SEDE query.
  • Make a userscript or user style.
  • Make an API app or script.

The meta sites are littered with these, as is Stack Apps.

The smart thing for Stack Exchange to do is:

  1. Monitor these 3rd-party tools religiously.
  2. When a tool seems particularly useful or has a large user base, roll that capability into the site itself.
    Most of the coding, and proof of usefulness, has already been done at negligible cost to Stack exchange.
  3. Greatly improve the API, so that new features can be rapidly implemented, by dedicated users, and shown to be valuable by actual use.

Currently, the API can only do a fraction of what the main sites can do. This situation needs to be reversed. The API should be able to do everything the sites can do and a whole lot more. This allows 3rd-party developers to fill niche needs and create new features much more cheaply than Stack Exchange could on its own.

Right now, the API is buggy and there have been no improvements, and almost no bug fixes, in years.

Feature-requests tell you what users think they want. Third party apps, scripts, and queries show you what users actually find helpful, AND Stack Exchange doesn't have to do anything but provide a great API and "borrow" the best results.

Optionally, development could even be spurred with something like an X-Prize -- which pits a variety of ideas against each other at relatively low cost to the prize donor.

6
  • The problem is that the API is limited; you can't redesign core functionality with it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 19:38
  • 2
    @TylerH, The API is already being used to proved functionality that the main site doesn't have. Then see item #3, above. The API should be the top development priority. After that, users can greatly help show which new "core" features are actually useful. Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 19:42
  • The problem with user-based suggestions is that so many of them are tailored towards ends that are good for an individual or small group, but bad for the overall health of the site. For example, a script that automatically ignores posts that use certain common terms would probably be welcomed by quite a few long-time users. But it would effectively bifurcate the site into those who use the tool and the wasteland of those who don't. At that point, you may as well just have two SO sites. Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 20:00
  • 2
    @NicolBolas Just because a script is used by many doesn't mean it necessarily makes sense to implement it for all users. I trust the devs would still look at the impact of implementing a change before blindly implementing it.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 20:02
  • @BrockAdams Yes, the API allows extending the functionality by little bits, just like getting a PhD extends our knowledge of some subject incrementally. it does not allow us to rewrite whole core functionalities.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 20:32
  • 1
    @TylerH, it does if you do it right. Think of it as exposing the Model layer in a controlled and secure manner. But it's better than that because apps can, and do, expand on the model as well. Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 20:37
-27

You need to understand priorities:

There is no doubt we've stopped making changes for core users...

- When some president does the right thing, it becomes top priority to celebrate that. *

- When some president does the wrong thing, it becomes top priority to protest against that. *


And second top priority is to manage site old-timers. A while ago the system was designed to give them some power and it is critically important to keep that power under control.

For example, if they start making too many and too loud complaints of certain kind it is important to ensure that these complaints are blocked.

Or they can even try to use their power to make top priority celebrations and protests run less smoothly than intended. Apparently it is critically important to ensure that this can't happen.


Speaking of core QA engine, you need to understand that there are so many suggestions and so many things that can be done that working on these (even evaluating these!) would take so much effort, it could even put higher priority things into jeopardy. This is unacceptable.

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  • 14
    I .. can't make much sense out of this. But I'm open to talking if you want to talk.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 18:53
  • 1
    @TimPost lately I prefer to just wait and see what you do (and what you don't do)
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 19:01
  • 1
    Can you try rephrasing this? I really have no idea what you're trying to say with it.
    – skrrgwasme
    Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 0:24
  • 2
    I had no problem understanding this answer, and agree with the general sentiment here.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 1:23
  • 1
    Are we abusing our delete votes on Meta? "delete votes hanging around on controversial answers are somewhat counter-productive..."
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 12, 2017 at 7:36

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