tl;dr at the end of the answer. Spoiler: the video makes several bad points.
This is my personal statement on the video in the form of a traversal over the contents of the video, while commenting on the points stated by the author and placing relevant links from Meta Stack Overflow along the way.
00:00 - It starts by showing this question and reading it out loud
0:00 - "I have this string. I want to split it on the pipe, but I don't know how. I don't want to split it at the white-space, only at the pipe. Is this possible?"
0:10 - The comments below the question are presented and read out loud:
Did you try Googling anything about the split()
method?
Welcome to Stack Overflow! You seem to be asking for someone to write some code for you. Stack Overflow is a question and answer site, not a code-writing service. Please see here to learn how to write effective questions.
"Whatever happened to Stack Overflow? How did we end up in a place where we not only get rude and snarky comments but we also get robotic-like responses from real people from valid questions?"
- The first comment shown right at the beginning of the video could have been phrased a bit better, all right. It is quite borderline still, given the nature of the question, which isn't new, nor hinted that there was indeed prior search in trying to solve the problem before asking and requesting the time of volunteers. But telling people to Google, by our current standards, is material to be flagged and removed promptly. What I usually do is either care to provide a relevant link directly to the documentation, or just leave no comment at all.
- I'm going to be honest here. There was a time I was more into leaving generated comments such as the second one, because it provided a quick and easy way to provide immediate feedback to the asker. There are even tools to help you keep a list of common feedback and post it when desired, something which Gabe might not have known about in the criticism. At some point however, I got tired of it because it would not always help the asker enough to actually fix all the problems in the question, and because too often they would just take it personally and lash out.
If the comment is indeed rude, it should be flagged. This is what actually makes moderation happen, not airing the dirty laundry on a YouTube video. Rude comments on SO are removed routinely, and those who insist on posting them are warned or suspended.
It's such a strange activity, commenting. Some people love them, some people hate them... people beg for them until they don't, people harass other people for having them as well as for not having them...
It's so chaotic that a fair share of curators have just chosen not to comment most of the time.
The video was biased in favor of the "poor new users" while missing out on the really rude comments posted practically every day from users (a fair share of which new users) who went rather toxic towards curators.
Relevant Meta questions:
0:36 - "This is not a rare scenario. This has become the norm on Stack Overflow. And I just have one question. How did we end up here?"
There happens to be no clear clarification of what "this" is supposed to refer to, especially since it goes at great lengths to describe question closure as one of the major problems.
Irrespective of whether "this" refers to the blunt comments or the regular closure of questions, there isn't great evidence of this being the norm throughout the video, nor of this being a problem.
But I will go deeper into that at the end.
0:46 - "My name is Gabe. And today we're going to look at some of the key factors that resulted in the cesspool that is Stack Overflow Q&A today. I'll also explore some approaches that may solve the problems we face, so that developers can just share information without fear of reproach."
Cesspool is a strong word to portray the platform here, and does not contribute to a constructive discussion.
Dismissing all occurrences of the word.
The History of Stack Overflow
I am not interested in assessing or validating the history of Stack Overflow as presented in the video, so I will skip that part.
2:28 - Title: "The Problems"
2:42 - "OK. So let's review real quickly how do users gain privilege? Well, they gain privilege by answering questions. What can you do with the privilege? You can answer questions, you can close questions, you can edit questions and you can reopen questions. OK. Well all that makes sense, well, what happens if you ask and somebody decides to close it? Well, you could reopen it but wait a second... you need the privilege to reopen it, and the privilege you don't have because... you're a new user."
This way of thinking is completely wrong, and it would no doubt contribute to a bad experience if new users enter the site with that mindset.
Rather than thinking about reopening a question that is closed, askers must edit to improve the question.
That in turn will make it enter a review queue in which curators check whether it is in good condition to be reopened.
If it is, it will garner the necessary three reopen votes.
So no, no privileges are needed here at all. It's just a matter of not letting someone unilaterally reopening their own question just because they think it's valid, genuine, or legitimate.
Also a small, but critical difference: the privileges gained through reputation are respectively to vote to close and vote to reopen, as the action is not applied unilaterally.
The only exceptions are for gold badge holders, who can close a question in the tag of their subject matter expert as a duplicate.
Heading back to the posed circumstances, all you would get as user with greater privileges is the ability to cast one reopen vote on your own closed question, thus still requiring two other users to agree with that.
3:10 - "OK well, what if somebody is bullying you in the comments? Well, you flag the comment OK, and then the flagged comment goes to... the moderators."
The video throughout makes a severe conflation between two distinct sets of users:
the users who have gained privileges to moderate over content (I will call them curators here)
and the moderators, who were either elected by the community or appointed by the company, with the main purpose of handling flags, settling disputes, and overall enforcing the code of conduct. There is a diamond next to the display names of the latter group, whereas the former are just users who take their time to curate the site.
One who is not active in a site from the Stack Exchange network might argue that not calling them moderators is just pedantic, but the differences are significant enough that just using that term to refer to curators does not give the criticism justice.
The people who post problematic comments are extremely unlikely to be the ones also moderating them.
3:19 - "So let's just take a look at some questions on Stack Overflow right now. There's this user who asks:"
3:24 - A question is shown, content verbatim save for the link, redacted from the transcript:
What technology was this website been built with?
I apologise in advance if this question is not allowed here.
Do you know what technology has been used to build this website?
[REDACTED]
Viewing the dev console and source has offered me no clues!
(asked Nov 17 '16 at 18:34)
Without going into Gabe's reaction yet, we can already be frank and admit that this asker deliberately disregarded the site's guidelines for what makes a question on-topic.
Each question asked will be viewer by visitors as well as volunteers, so just posting off-topic questions anyway is not very respectful of people's time.
No exceptions are made for whatever reason, because there is no objective way of handling them. It would turn the exception into an excused norm, much to the detriment of the repository.
At this point, a good outcome here is to have it closed as soon as possible. Onwards...
3:31 - "Now, I think this is a valid question. Programmers build websites using so many different technologies, it's reasonable to ask if anyone knows what a particular site used to build it. Well, the Stack Overflow users, they have a different thought."
Another common trope in the video is not going deep enough into understanding why some sorts of questions are considered unsuitable for the platform. This one in particular is hard to ever be useful to future visitors, and can get outdated rather quickly if the company decides to use different technologies for their website.
Relevant Meta: Programming Language Identification Questions (this one pertains on programming languages, but the reasoning is practically the same)
And let's be clear on this: that a question is deemed "valid" does not give it a free pass. That is never a reason to refrain from assessing its value or scope. Same for the question being "genuine" or "legitimate". It can still be unclear, poorly researched, or even just not suitable for the kind of Q&A that was built here. This may be Q&A, but it's not just any Q&A where anything goes.
"The first one says:"
Seems like you already knew questions like this are off-topic. -- Nov 17 '16 at 18:36
3:49 - "And then this person says:"
I see quite a bit of information in the dev. tools. -- Nov 17 '16 at 18:36
"The implication being, 'why can you see what the devtools show me?'
This next person says:"
Really? The console offered nothing? To me, it yelled out pixijs.com... -- Nov 17 '16 at 18:37
4:06 - "and this user gave a very helpful answer, that it's:"
Magic, naturally. -- Nov 17 '16 at 18:38
This is the problem I was talking about with comments. In the face of an off-topic or otherwise poor question, they are more likely to be a bit blunt at best.
- "I see quite a bit of information in the dev. tools." could be immediately flagged as no longer needed, because it provides no useful information.
- "Really? The console offered nothing?" is a bit over the line indeed, although it happens to also indicate what the asker wanted.
- "Magic, naturally." is not constructive and could also be flagged immediately.
Also, before calling out that Stack Overflow is «your favorite negative adjective here» because of some comment you found, please check its date. These ones were posted in November 2016. In 2018, the site brought two significant changes which helped shape what comments are good or not while influencing users to flag more often. Among other things, the Welcoming initiative brought:
- A reiteration of the comment flagging form, which enabled users to flag comments as Unfriendly/Unkind, as a distinction to the heavier "Harassment/Abusive" kind of flag; and allowed users to flag comments in their own questions with no reputation requirement.
- A new Code of Conduct, which replaced the previous Be Nice policy and helped outline specific patterns of inappropriate behavior, such as putdowns.
See also: When is a comment hostile or unfriendly? (Educating newer users how to flag comments)
"And then finally somebody just says:"
"It's pixijs, that's what they used. And the poor user simply says thanks and then leaves with their tail between their legs."
4:21 - "What's wrong with these people? Why is it so difficult to just say it's pixijs?"
This is another bad rub, because it's the main clash of expectations regarding the site.
Stack Overflow is, from the very beginning, designed to be a repository of quality questions and answers run by volunteers, and the quality standards help people find the content that they are looking for and prevent the issues that other platforms had.
Whenever someone posts a question, there ought to be the intention to make it useful to future visitors.
That is, it may seem that the volunteers are only expected to help the asker, but one should instead seek to help all visitors who stumble upon that question.
The reception of this question was never a matter of whether people could or could not give an answer to the question.
The problem was the user posting a bad question, knowing that it was off-topic, and yet expecting to be helped in a platform where quality standards are imposed for the benefit of everyone else.
There is no such thing as being entitled to help when asking here, much less when it is off-topic. It may sound condescending and cold, but it's a matter of common courtesy: if it isn't the place for it and there are signs saying "don't do it", don't push the barriers aside and do it anyway. The lack of consideration in posting any kind of question with the excuse that they want personal help is just as blunt and inappropriate.
The asker in this particular interaction was not left empty-handed.
Continuing to provide individual help through the comments, as exhibited here, may seem like it works well.
But in the end, all of that is likely to be deleted, thus only helping the asker.
When comparing this with the goal of creating resources for the next visitors, it does not lead to a significant contribution and passes along the wrong idea.
On this subject: Should one advise on off-topic questions?
None of this excuses any inappropriate comment from anyone, still. Please flag them accordingly.
4:27 - "All right so the next question is pretty technical, but an experienced programmer should be able to help out. So this person asked:"
Initialization of a constant reference with a number
What is the meaning of the following line? Why is this allowed as 0 is an r-value and not a variable name? What is the significance of const
in this statement?
const int &x = 0;
(asked May 15 '18 at 21:35) Initialization of a constant reference with a number
(Note: as presented in the video, the question was not closed and had a score of -10)
4:41 - "Aand the responses, so... first person says:"
Homework? And what does your C++ textbook have to say on the subject? -- May 15 '18 at 21:36 (now deleted)
"And the next person, very helpfully, says:"
Just read a [good book]. -- May 15 18' at 21:38 (now deleted)
"And then, 'here, this link has a similar question', which may or may not have been helpful at all":
Similar: <link to another SO question> -- May 15 18' at 21:39
This is another attempt at calling out inappropriate comments. For what it's worth, the ones calling it homework or telling the OP to read a good book are gone now.
Gabe's remark on the last comment was not very constructive, though. Similar questions may help create links of knowledge with other questions in the site and find potential duplicate questions. After all, for C++ and many other languages, asking a question which was already asked before is more common than not.
Which leads to another problem found here: even for a question asking about a C++ concept that existed for quite a while (in this case the lifetime extension of rvalues when passed to const references) that was already asked before, it was not closed with a suitable duplicate. It took the additional attention caused by this video for someone to finally make this assignment, more than three years after it was asked.
Granted, not all questions are curated the same way. It is a tedious process done by humans, the incoming volume of new questions is more than they can handle, and the site's own search engine is suboptimal for the task of finding duplicates, making duplicate finding sometimes a more bothersome activity than just leaving a comment or even posting another answer.
4:56 - "Now, I was actually curious about what this question... was, like what the answer to this was, because I didn't even know what it was. I code in C++ pretty regularly and did not know the meaning of this, I'd never seen this syntax, and didn't even know it was valid code. And this poor guy was downvoted 10 times, why? Because he had the audacity to ask a question. OK? OK.
To be fair, the question is at a pretty high score, now that it has received additional attention from the video. YouTube effect, much? There were still no signs of research effort, which was probably the reason for the downvotes in the first place. Voting was designed to be fairly frictionless, so let people vote as they see fit.
5:20 - "So, he finally finds an answer and then he posts it to the website. Uh, the answer gets downvoted, so if anybody else is looking for something similar, they can't find it."
This could be challenged. I just tried Duck Duck Go with the terms c++ pass const reference rvalue
, and the first result was this question, which covers passing parameters of multiple kinds of references. The same was obtained with Brave search. Neither of these construct personal search profiles.
But it is understandable that not everyone could have the capacity to come up with the right search terms, and that is precisely why duplicates are so great: once bound, they create a new signpost for future visitors who search for terms found in that new question.
"And I was actually curious about this, like I had never seen this before, and yet if I ever were searching for it I probably wouldn't find it because Google is now gonna rank this low, since it was downvoted.
I'm afraid that this is unfounded. To the best of my knowledge, Google does not rank question pages on Stack Overflow lower just because it was downvoted. At best, voting influences the content of the site itself in other ways described below, but how Google or other indexing systems use this is a matter of implementation details which Stack Overflow has little control of.
- The score itself is a signal for visitors to take care when reading its contents, as it may be misleading, have issues, or not actually contribute to finding a solution.
- In answers, the score is currently the default sorting criterion: answers with the highest score appear first on the question page.
- With a score negative enough, the answer will appear faded, and opens the possibility for trusted users to vote to delete it. Deleted content, albeit soft-deleted since they can be viewed by users with the necessary privilege, can no longer be searched for through regular means, so they cannot be reindexed by search engines.
- With a score of -3 or less, a closed question can be voted for deletion by trusted users.
Relevant:
5:39 - "This next user asks:"
What is e in e.preventDefault()
I am not able to understand the parameter 'e' which is passed to prevent the Default Action in JavaScript
document.getElementById('submit').addEventListener('click', calculate, false);
function calculate(e){
e.preventDefault():
}
(asked Sep 14 '17 at 9:57) What is e in e.preventDefault()
5:49 - "Now, to an experienced programmer this is pretty obvious. However, if you don't program and you've never seen this or you're new to programming, this is a completely valid question. The responses:"
Again, "validity" of a question does not constitute a free pass against the usual curation activity.
e is the event. -- Sep 14 '17 at 9:58
"Well, that's actually a pretty tame response but it provides absolutely no information."
"Then this lovely gentleman says:"
"This question shows zero research effort. Aside from the fact you get that answer by literally typing your title into google, did you try anything, like console.log(e)
on different element bindings to see what it might be?" -- Sep 14 '17 at 10:04 (now deleted)
Well, it kind of speaks for itself that the comment is deleted now, but it is a bit contentious. It is best not to leave any comment if you cannot do it without making implications of laziness. What was described in that one does justify any potential downvote, which is definitely better than commenting "Aside from the fact you get that answer by literally typing your title into google", regardless of how true that is.
Relevant: What if they COULD google their question in 5 seconds?
6:22 - "What is wrong with these people, they seem to have forgotten that Stack Overflow is a Q&A site! How dare this user ask a question! On a Q&A site!"
This goes close to what I already referred to as "not just some Q&A" above.
6:31 - "This user says:"
I am learning coding c++ in Unreal Engine, I got this syntax I don't really get:
class USphereComponent* ProxSphere;
I think this means create a class, but this class is a pointer?
But the result is just create an object called ProxSphere from an existing class USphereComponent.
Could anyone explain how this syntax actually means and it's usage?
(asked Feb 6 '16 at 17:51) What does class pointer* means?
(At the time of writing, the question had received a score inflation also caused by the extra attention from the video (+13, -9))
6:42 - "The responses:"
Please pick up a text book and learn C++ systematically. -- Feb 6 '16 at 17:52 (now deleted)
"Um, I'm sorry? This is a Q&A site."
This is a class pointer declaration, no more, no less. -- Feb 6 '16 at 17:52
6:53 - "Ah, that makes it perfectly clear, how did I not see that before. Just in case you're wondering, that is sarcasm, that is not clear at all! Once again, this is an example of a problem I've never seen before, and I program in C++ almost daily. This user thankfully provided a clear and concise explanation, but why did all those other users feel the need to waste time out of their day to berate someone who had the audacity to ask a question?"
It was a similar problem to the previous question. The c++ tag receives many questions, as well as attention from curators.
7:23 - "This next question's answer gives us a little window into the moderator's brains. Warning, it's a scary place."
Oo, mysterious!
"This users asks:"
How to answer a closed question?
This question was closed yesterday for obvious reasons. One important function in question which answers were really depending on that wasn't in question. Then after the question was closed, OP left a comment that they had added the function which makes the question very clear.
How can I answer this question? Should I create a chat room?
(asked April 7 '20 at 13:21) Meta How to answer a closed question?
7:43 - "Now, this is the crux of the problem with Stack Overflow. Closed questions are sort of left in a limbo state. They're closed so they can't be answered. You have to edit it to be able to answer it, but we've already talked about the problems that come with editing it and trying to get your question reopened. Hint hint, it requires reputation, which most people don't have."
Again, this was a misrepresentation of how reopening works. No, you don't need reputation to get the question reopened. But it does need to be improved in order to convince the reviewers that it is in good condition to be reopened.
8:02 - "Fortunately, a moderator gives us an answer to this question. He says:"
Nope, this answer is not from a moderator, but from a regular user.
Edit the Question to include the comment, and then vote to reopen it.
"Oh, OK so, uh, you just edit it and then you have to vote to reopen it, so even if the question is fixed, you can't reopen it at all."
The answer just did not go into greater detail here, and it is also a bit outdated, now that there is a new mechanism for declaring that the question is ready for review. You would vote to reopen it if you can, and check the box at the section "Submit for review". Naturally, the platform should not go out of its way to immediately reopen something once it's edited. What if the question is still off-topic after the edit? What if it did not resolve the issues that led to the question being closed?
What Gabe could also have done here to find out more about the minds of moderators curators would be pressing the link at the top of that Meta question and continue traversing the chain of duplicates. Or then again, searching why questions are closed.
Relevant: Changing the question reopening experience
8:18 - "And then he puts in bold:"
Do not open a chat room or answer in comments or otherwise work around the closing.
"'Cuz... how dare somebody try to help some other random person on the internet."
This again pertains to whether we're here to serve as a helpdesk or to create a repository of quality questions and answers.
Many people seem to prefer the former, but without considering the damages that it would cause as the latter.
The questions
At this point Gabe just shows many examples of old closed questions. This exercise of trying to look into so many questions is not very interesting to be done by a single person, and I would not be able to counterargue with all of them in a single post, so I just skipped it.
If anyone has interest in understanding why a specific question was closed, one can ask about it on Meta. Listing a bunch of questions found in a query, dumping them all and saying "what is wrong with you mods" is not the way to go with this.
10:59 - "Unfortunately I have so many more examples of this. If you want to see examples of this just click the link in the description and you can see up to 500 more questions that are just like the ones I just showed you."
11:10 - "Even though there are only 500 questions there, there's probably thousands of questions that will never see the light of day because of the rigged system that we already talked about that is in place."
This is the part where the forest was missed for the trees, by not seeing the full scale of this platform. Enter the Stack Exchange list of sites. Stack Overflow currently holds 22 million questions. 11 million visits a day. And more than five and a half thousand questions are asked every day. Against these numbers, even if someone had found ten thousand questions incorrectly closed, those would have only been less than 0.5% of what we have today.
This is also a form of survivorship bias: selecting the questions which were closed but obtained a high score fails to consider the amount of bad questions which clutter the site every day. Those questions are old and also contain old comments. They do not make a fair representation of the kind of questions asked these days, nor of the kind of comments posted on them.
11:23 - "Stack Overflow has a problem. I wish it didn't, because it's helped me and so many other programmers over the past decade. However, I think it's reaching its lifetime. It's going to remain a valuable resource for decades to come, but it's no longer gaining value."
It would definitely help if this were backed by data. Not doing so is the best way for the community to dismiss this as just another biased perception. As far as the perceptions of venture capitals go, the company hosting the site was deemed worth 1.8 B$ not long ago.
"If you ask programmers who have asked questions on Stack Overflow, I bet you they got their own horror stories to tell. Not only that, but they'll talk about how they now go to Discord servers or Reddit, Quora, or anywhere else except Stack Overflow because, nobody likes to be berated for absolutely no reason."
It is unfortunate that people receive those bad experiences, and the generality of curators do not go out of their way to contribute to those experiences. But it's not like Stack Overflow forbids you from visiting those other platforms either. Many people will be fairly well served with those, especially if they are just getting started on a subject, or have trouble formulating clear and well researched questions. A great deal of those stories could have been completely avoided if they had first understood the implications of asking a question. Those who do not will eventually lose their privilege to ask questions.
Relevant questions:
"Maybe Stack Overflow will notice this problem. The real problem. And fix this."
Oh, one could go on and on about the real problems of the site, and whether or not the community or the company notice them. The only major problem that can actually resonate with both this video and the community is the clash of expectations between the users expecting free help and the curators expecting quality contributions to the masses. This in part was caused by how the company advertises the site, but it is a hard problem to solve in general. Curators and moderators try to do their part in educating those who are willing to be educated, but the popularity of the site makes it so that it is impossible to cater to each asker one by one while also keeping quality in place.
Relevant:
Also, unlike what was stated at the beginning of the video:
I'll also explore some approaches that may solve the problems we face, so that developers can just share information without fear of reproach.
There were no proposals for ways to fix said problem, nor useful guidance on how to ask proper questions, on which there was zero investment in the video. If asking elsewhere is the solution, that would then only apply to each individual user rather than posed as a legitimate interest in "fixing" Stack Overflow. On the other hand, I also think that a precise portrayal of the system in its current state is important before proposing any fixes.
tl;dr Here is a summary of the issues with the video:
- Although some of the comments presented were either not very constructive or a bit out of touch:
- the great majority were posted before the Welcoming initiative;
- they were not examples of blatant abuse (not exactly bullying, demeaning, or harassment);
- it missed the opportunity to say that the community can and should take part in the flagging process.
- It makes a severe conflation between users performing active curation and actual moderators. Regular users with curation privileges were called moderators throughout.
- It paints a significantly wrong picture of the question closing and reopening system on the site.
- It is heavily biased in favor of having more leeway on questions, without bothering to understand why they are closed in the first place.
Finally, some more relevant reading: