Timeline for Should we stop commenting altogether?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
88 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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Dec 20, 2019 at 11:17 | vote | accept | CodeCaster | ||
Sep 10, 2018 at 11:16 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Marc This is not supposed to be a tutorial site or a replacement for books. It's in nobody's best interest (except the solitary unreading individual) to continually spam duplicate beginner content across the web. It doesn't even help the OP, not really, despite what they think (teach a man to fish, man...). This fact is literally the entire purpose that Stack Overflow exists, to set it apart from places like Experts Exchange who were like this. Like, literally the entire purpose. Why has everybody forgotten that? | |
Sep 10, 2018 at 9:54 | comment | added | Marc Le Bihan | Poor beginners. Sometimes comments done on their posts don't welcome them. Of course a beginner question might be naïve, not really clear, taking the whole subject the wrong way. Stackoverflow is here to help them, not to send them a general link or a cold sentence. Is it the hundred Null pointer or class cast exception you explain how to solve ? Continue to explain each time how on the case of the beginner. Don't send him away by a rude comment. Be tolerant, comprehensive. We all been (and will be again) beginners. | |
Aug 24, 2018 at 12:04 | comment | added | J. Doe | You know, apart from your infantile attitude of "things aren't going my way, so I'll stop doing anything (frowny face)" I'd like to post this non-unwelcoming, non-threathening, non-yadda-yadda comment with the hope that when I point out repeating a sentence to a person who does not understand it doesn't suddenly, magically make them completely comprehend it might make you think that "Hmmm, maybe helping people understand things is better than blindly repeating them and claiming I did something useful.". | |
Aug 5, 2018 at 8:49 | comment | added | Martin James | 'we don't really effectively work with questioners to improve their poor questions any more' - well, yes but, to curators, that is a solution, not a problem. Trying to actively help with bad questions is usually a waste of time, often frustrating and occasionally generates rude and abusive responses for which there is no effective sanction. Volunteer time is better spent on handling good questions. OK, on some tags, only ~10% of the questions are worth looking at any further than the title, (today, Sunday, C tag), but it's still a better use of time to ignore and/or down/close vote the 90%. | |
Aug 4, 2018 at 4:58 | answer | added | Journeyman Geek | timeline score: -9 | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 21:55 | answer | added | Chris Cirefice | timeline score: 36 | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 21:25 | comment | added | Steve Summit | It seems to me that part of the problem is that we don't really effectively work with questioners to improve their poor questions any more. A poor question can get downvoted and held or closed in just a few minutes. The OP is likely to shrug and go away rather than taking the time to fix. Even if the OP does take the time to fix, the damage has been done: there's no guarantee that the fixed question will be reopened, and there's less guarantee that the downvotes will be reversed. So the OP that walks away isn't even that wrong, since the likelihood that fixing it will help is so low. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 15:57 | comment | added | Zulan | This is the most depressing meta-question&answers I've ever seen. Clearly the tide is turning. This isn't just rants and FUD: new policy is actively preventing curators to improve this site. Yet there is no constructive response from the higher-ups. I'll take a break and hope for the better in a few months. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 15:17 | comment | added | davidbak | haven't seen anyone mention that "comments are not for answers" and deleting those quick one-sentence "answering comment" is frustrating because quick one-sentence "actual answers" are very often downvoted because not helpful enough - though complete answers! - which again penalizes someone trying to improve the site with an answer vs. the original low-quality question which will not get improved. Incentives are running the wrong way. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 14:39 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @kfrosty if you mean this question, the analysis of that is worth an own post. You're asking "How to make this reflection clone code I found online also recursively copy collections". First of all, you're reinventing AutoMapper. Second, you're not showing any effort of solving that particular problem, just as the post in question here. You only show non-working code for the problem you're trying to solve. Third, how to copy generic collections is described in duplicates. There are no comments there anymore, but I hope they pointed that out. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 14:25 | comment | added | Ňɏssa Pøngjǣrdenlarp | @kfrosty Yeah, and part of the point of SO is that it is mostly user maintained - voting, edit posts, vote to close, vote to delete, assortment of review queues. Users who care and want to are encouraged to help that way and commenting on improvements. I actually recall your "bad names" post from yesterday, but there are no comments at all on it...already have those swept under the rug? | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 14:16 | comment | added | Ňɏssa Pøngjǣrdenlarp | @kfrosty There are no numbers to be "gotten" from comments. The upvotes just indicate someone else feels the same way and/or would type the same thing. Also, in my experience the person asking is usually the least qualified to determine what is relevant or applicable. There are scads of posts here essentially asking How to drive a nail with a glass hammer? There are very often other ways to do things that appear to have not occurred to the OP | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 13:56 | comment | added | kfrosty | Your post indicates what I dislike, people commenting to get numbers. I took time yesterday to post code and a very detailed question and immediately get comments about using something else and irrevelent things that tend to have others see them and not give answers you're trying to find. Or the threads just get long and a PITA to go through when you are trying to find something. The admins seem to get rid or adjust posts if they have something to do with it. Also, if the post isn't to your liking, why not just ignore it versus getting number counts up??? | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 11:23 | comment | added | Bob Jarvis - Слава Україні | @CodeCaster - if you're arguing for getting rid of comments, should you be commenting here? You've posted seven comments above. ??? | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:56 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Ryan in hindsight I do realise the comment might come across as unfriendly, so I'm not mad for someone pointing that out once again. My point indeed is that I see this deletion happen to many comments, however (un)friendly, and that doesn't invite the slightest bit to spend even more effort to write such comments, as they can be removed at a whim anyway. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:54 | comment | added | RyanfaeScotland | Ah sorry @CodeCaster, I did go through the comments but didn't notice people had already suggested 'Welcome-ifying' your comment. Yeah, this doesn't address the bigger issue or you real question (hence comment rather than answer) but I even almost didn't post the comment as I figured you are already aware and yeah, I think there are much bigger issues going on. It was an itch that I had to scratch though. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:52 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Ryan yeah, good point, maybe. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:48 | comment | added | RyanfaeScotland | Seriously, if "What have you tried" is an 'age old misunderstanding' then why are you still using it? Why not just say "Show what you have tried to solve this problem". I don't understand why you'd continue to use a phrase if you know it can cause communication issues and you already have a more effective alternative one to follow up with. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:47 | comment | added | QBrute | I mostly stopped commenting a while ago. I really hate the feeling that I need to walk on eggshells to not get reprimanded or something worse. Sure, I had my fair share of snappy comments, but usually I tried to give the posters hints as to how to solve their problems. But now I have to fear that comments which are considered "unwelcoming" in even the slightest way, will get me into trouble. IMO commenting is simply not worth the effort and hassle anymore and I guess I'm not the only person here with that mindset. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:46 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Ryan the question doesn't contain broken code. It contains code that is used to obtain a string list. They then, and that's their question, want to take a substring out of each string, after a certain delimiter. The question shows no attempt whatsoever to do that. And yes, it's been stated again and again that my comment could've been written in a more friendly way, and perhaps it should've. That doesn't change the fact that comments asking for improvement should not be removed until they're complied with, unless they're insulting, denigrating or otherwise not nice. I find it nice enough. | |
Aug 3, 2018 at 10:42 | comment | added | RyanfaeScotland | "They responded that their question already contains what they've tried (it doesn't)," - It does. It may not contain EVERYTHING that they've tried but it contains the broken code, which IS something they tried. Also what is the word 'simple' doing there other than insulting the OP? I don't think you should have to but here is a More Welcoming (tm) version: "Please show everything you have tried, not just the broken bit, so that we can narrow it down. This looks like a indexof+substring or regex operation issue. I'd also read How to Ask for more tips that'll help us answer more effectively." | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 20:22 | answer | added | David Heffernan | timeline score: -18 | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 18:33 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @jpmc26 that's exactly what it say there, isn't it? | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 17:51 | comment | added | jpmc26 | "Yesterday a 150th question was posted by someone with the age old misunderstanding that 'What have you tried' means 'Show the code you have that made you end up at this problem,' and not 'Show what you have tried to solve this problem.' Big difference." I'm pretty sure you're the one with the misunderstanding there. It means, "What information have you found and attempts you've made so far that didn't help?" If all the user does is dump their code and say, "Fix it," at other people, they're doing it wrong. | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 17:13 | comment | added | user4639281 | Bad, poorly written, no-effort comments are somehow supposed to be OK now? | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 16:38 | comment | added | user177800 | devaluating reputation points they are already worthless, have been for years, do not see how they can become even more worthless at this point. | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 15:25 | comment | added | epascarello | The problem with a lot of people seems they have zero backbone to take constructive criticism today. A lot of todays developers would have struggled back in the day when out had to crack open a dead tree and try to figure out a solution to their problem and some reason the new generation of developers think they can put in zero effort into asking something and get the solution for free. The 10 years I been on this site it went from people that wanted help with their issues to people that want us to do their work for them. IMO: People that want the solution seem to be the ones that get offended | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 15:15 | comment | added | jthill |
I intend to be unwelcoming to lazy, ignorant posters treating this as a read-me-the-manpage service. If the question took longer to type than the answer would take to discover (say, the poster asking what the right separator for <paths> on a command line was) SO should be unwelcoming. Because the question quality has gotten so low it's getting to be simply not worth my time wading through the dreck.
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Aug 2, 2018 at 11:46 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @YvetteColomb Okay I can read it that way now :) | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 10:00 | comment | added | EENN | @Gimby Just to play devil's advocate, it could theoretically also be understood to imply "this is the kind of stuff we find simple here, if you disagree this might not be the place for you". | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 8:48 | answer | added | Flater | timeline score: -13 | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 8:37 | answer | added | Ian Kemp | timeline score: 188 | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 8:32 | comment | added | Gimby | @Lawyerson maybe it is a language barrier, but I am confused by the use of the word "unwelcoming". It is not, it does not imply "get out!" - it implies "do a little better please". It is, in fact, an unwelcome comment. As in: the comment itself should end up on the cutting room floor. | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 8:22 | comment | added | EENN | "This is a simple indexof+substring or regex operation." is basically one of the examples of unwelcoming comments that was originally shown in the blog post. You don't want to imply that anything is simple, because it might hurt the asker's feelings if they don't see it that way. | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 6:47 | comment | added | Gimby | @rogerdpack that's not a fair comparison, you don't quality vote on comments as you can't downvote them. You basically vote on comments so that when they start to automatically collapse, the more prudent ones will stay visible. Different purposes entirely. | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 6:45 | comment | added | Mark Rotteveel | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I agree with that (but I can also see how others can read it), what I don't agree with is the 'shit-storm' of this discussion that somehow that comment (and similar comments) are somehow worth saving from removal. I also disagree with the premise that this is somehow new and tied to the current 'be welcoming' effort. I think it would have been removed in the past as well, it is just this community overscrutinizing everything and then raising hell about it. | |
Aug 2, 2018 at 3:10 | comment | added | Reblochon Masque | "and a 6K rep answerer..." There is so much contempt and passive aggression there! | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 19:45 | comment | added | TylerH | "People apparently can flag comments as "no longer needed" to make them go away and successively refuse to improve their question, removing the comment as a signpost for both other commenters (who then might post the same improvement request again) and later visitors (not seeing any comments, assuming the question is fine)." I believe you have mischaracterized Rob's comment with this statement. He said that he would delete obsolete comments after OP has seen them, and also that he would leave a couple relevant comments, not delete them wholesale. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 18:15 | comment | added | rogerdpack | Sometimes comments have more upvotes than the answer itself...FWIW... | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 17:52 | comment | added | Mark Ransom | How can you see the comments you've made? I see them in the All Actions section but nowhere else. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 15:16 | answer | added | Makoto | timeline score: -16 | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 15:14 | answer | added | Nicol Bolas | timeline score: -38 | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 15:00 | comment | added | Ňɏssa Pøngjǣrdenlarp | @PeterMortensen Or the sign up process could be improved to actually prepare new users for what is expected. None of the main close reasons are covered as minimal expectations. They can be found if you go looking for them but it is covered in optional content | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 14:55 | comment | added | Peter Mortensen | @Plutonix: We could put up barriers to entry (opposite to Jeff Atwood's original statement "no barriers to entry"). -About 10 years ago; BTW, isn't today the 10 year anniversary of the Stack Overflow beta launch? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 14:33 | comment | added | Ňɏssa Pøngjǣrdenlarp | Bad, poorly written, no-effort questions make me feel unwelcome. What can we do about that? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 14:28 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @MarkRotteveel When we make a rule that says "everything you write must be completely utterly impossible for anyone in the entire world to read as unwelcoming" it will become infeasible to communicate at all. There is always someone who will misread, or misinterpret, or just flat out decide that something pleasant enough has offended them. We cannot, absolutely cannot, prioritise pandering to this small number of people's sensitivities at the total expense of all other goals, not when one of those goals (keeping the community useful and productive) is of absolute vital importance. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 14:21 | comment | added | user3956566 | @CodeCaster asked this meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/371870/… | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 14:15 | comment | added | user3956566 | BTW the it's not relevant flag allows for more comment leniency, as a discussion about a post is relevant. Doesn't matter if it's no longer needed. Do you hear that sound? it's the rumble of why was my comment flag declined questions | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 13:20 | comment | added | Mark Rotteveel | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I agree that it shouldn't be considered unwelcoming, but it does read a bit condescending (and IMO not very helpful), and therefore some people will read it as unwelcoming. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 13:03 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | If the question seemed like a duplicate, why did you comment instead of voting to close? Too many people ignore requests for improvements (or really any feedback that isn't an answer) to expect an edit in response to one. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:50 | comment | added | Seth | Why was this dupe-closed with a question that is not even remotely related to this one? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:48 | comment | added | Martin James | @Patrice It's worse, it's Pay-Nothing-As-Someone-Else-Googles :( | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:45 | history | reopened |
rlemon l4mpi user247702 Bjørn-Roger Kringsjå Liam |
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Aug 1, 2018 at 12:42 | comment | added | Patrice | @plutonix how very unwelcoming of you(/sarcasm). SE turned into a cellphone provider... 'if you are with us already, then you are owed nothing and tough luck. But to get you to sign up with us, we will give you the world. Established curators are few and far between, new users are a dime a thousand....if you make money from traffic, who would you pander for? :/.... Really sad | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:40 | comment | added | Martin James | @Plutonix well, cntl-c/cntl-v is only really two keystrokes, three if you count the control key. Comments that short are not even allowed. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:37 | history | closed | user3956566 | Duplicate of Why was my comment deleted? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:27 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Plutonix You have hit the nail on the head my friend. And it's because SE is deliberately encouraging entitlement. Scary. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:22 | comment | added | Ňɏssa Pøngjǣrdenlarp | Why does it seem like more effort is required to post a comment than is required of people wanting expert help? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:21 | comment | added | Liam | I think you should do whatever you think is right and if SO (inc) don't agree then meh. Without us this site is nothing, I think they (SO) need to remember/be reminded of this. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:19 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Liam what do you mean? Yes, I could've written that comment in a lot of different ways, and in retrospect I should've. The point is: it is a question that shows no research effort whatsoever, and a duplicate of many. I wanted to get a response from the OP so I could guide them further. Instead my comment got flagged and removed, the OP got their answer, while that answer already lives in hundreds of other answers on the site. So all I'm asking: should I continue to comment (and yes, perhaps try to improve my wording), or should I let that go because the comment could be removed anytime? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:16 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @fancyPants It's perfectly polite. The only way it could be more polite is to add smiley face emojis. I honestly can't see how you find it impolite. If by chance you really mean "wasn't 100% necessary to ensure the smooth operation of the question" then (a) I disagree, and (b) even if I agreed, that's a remarkably high bar to set for this mythical "welcoming" notion. At that point, why even bother showing up at all? We literally may as well just all go home. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:15 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @MonkeyZeus It's possible but if so I missed it (but I'm not paying much attention these days) | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:15 | comment | added | MonkeyZeus | @LightnessRacesinOrbit That I am aware of but wasn't there a proposal/approval to have it done on Stack Overflow too? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:15 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @MarkRotteveel Is that seriously the bar for "unwelcoming" nowadays? I have not been around much but if so that is honestly scary. Pandering is never the answer. Never. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:13 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @MonkeyZeus It says that on some SE sites but not all. Don't ask me why. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:12 | comment | added | MonkeyZeus |
I could have sworn that they changed add a comment into suggest improvement . Where is it? Am I going crazy?
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Aug 1, 2018 at 12:11 | comment | added | Liam | Has anyone else just lost interest in this and carried on as if "the welcoming" didn't happen? Or is that just me. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 12:04 | comment | added | fancyPants | I must agree with Dukeling. People often don't understand what you think they would, especially when they are no native speaker. I personally don't see anything polite in your comment. The "please" could as well be ironic, so that doesn't count. And it would never ever occur to me, that "show the code" could also mean "that made you end up at this problem". I'd say you simply have to work on your wording (given only these two examples. I didn't read any of your 15,000 comments). | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 11:59 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @CodeCaster "I was asking 'Are you really asking how to find a substring within a string?'" - maybe that's what you wanted to ask, but that's not what I'm reading in your comment. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 11:54 | comment | added | Mark Rotteveel | I'm not sure having something like "This is a simple indexof+substring or regex operation." is in anyway helpful or constructive, and because of that it can be seen as unwelcoming. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 11:52 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @CodeCaster Sure, but your "constructive" phrasing involved posting an answer, not asking them specifically what we need from them. If an answer is "use IndexOf and Substring like this: ...", then "use IndexOf and Substring" is a partial answer, and "This looks like an ideal candidate for" is just a fancy way of saying "use". | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 11:16 | history | edited | CodeCaster | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 1, 2018 at 11:08 | answer | added | user3956566 | timeline score: -70 | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 10:33 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Dukeling there's nothing wrong with "what have you tried", when phrased constructively. By commenting what I did, I was asking "Are you really asking how to find a substring within a string? Because there are thousands of examples about that on the web" - but then in a polite, constructive way. That's not a "partial answer", that's pulling out of the OP what they have tried, in order to let them either improve their question or find an appropriate duplicate. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 10:24 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @CodeCaster Well, if you think comments containing nothing more than "What have you tried" should be allowed, see the linked post. If you think such comments shouldn't be allowed, the question is why you think your comment is better - all you did was add a partial answer, which, if anything, makes the comment even less appropriate (because comments are not for answers). | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 10:20 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Dukeling that comment is to entice them to show their research and their code. If they tried something but it failed, they should show that code. If they found something but didn't think it was relevant, they should mention that in their question. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 10:18 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | A comment containing “what have you tried” and a partial answer. Why do you think your comment should stick around? | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 10:06 | comment | added | Pekka | I'm in the same boat with 30,625 comments (I like to think usually friendly and often helpful) and I sure as hell won't be wasting my time authoring any more until there is a transparent and sane policy around this. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:58 | comment | added | ivarni | Uh, I'm normally a bit apprehensive about the criticism of the new welcoming thing, but I'll happily upvote this one. Politely asking the OP to provide context should not be considered unwelcoming and this sounds like a blatant misuse of the "no longer needed" flag to me. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:50 | comment | added | Martin James | @E_net4 they post the 'random-downvoting trolls' comments/metas already, so no change. The OP's will always find some way to lash out when a slave-revolt leaves them with no homework to hand in but, at least, downvotes with no comments leaves them with no single target username for a whipping. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:42 | comment | added | Gimby | There is nothing pretentious about an honest question revolving around a really noticeable trend. It is potentially the start of a nice meta bash though ;) | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:42 | comment | added | E_net4 | I'm starting to feel it's a lost case. Stop commenting altogether and you'll still see comments going like "it seems we have trolls in this tag randomly downvoting posts". Ideally, we'd think of ways to minimize harm, be it with or without commenting. | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:42 | comment | added | Martin James | I don't see it as 'pretentious', especially as I have suggested something similar, (not quite the same, so not dupe), myself: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/366927/758133 | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:40 | answer | added | Magisch | timeline score: 149 | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:39 | history | edited | CodeCaster | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 1, 2018 at 7:36 | comment | added | Seth | The whole discussion revolving around "unwelcoming comments" is enough of a reason for me not to comment on how the question at hand could be improved. It's just not worth the hassle. Nowadays I stick to the good old "Downvote, flag if necessary, and move on". | |
Aug 1, 2018 at 7:28 | history | asked | CodeCaster | CC BY-SA 4.0 |