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I was talking to a kid the other day who had a Python issue. Not being well-versed (or really, even badly-versed) in Python, I asked if he had checked Stack Overflow.

Let's just say that he is a "dissatisfied former user". The sanitized version is that "Stack Overflow is the worst forum I ever tried to use". Not knowing him very well (he's one of my son's classmates), I decided to "fly the flag" a little bit, and see if I could get some useful feedback for when I answer questions. I pointed out that Stack Overflow isn't a forum, it's a Q&A site. It's primarily meant to be searched. You're only supposed to ask a question if you can't find the answer.

After getting past a fair bit of rationalization, I got him to boil it down to

  1. Searching is too hard/slow
  2. If it's not a forum, why does it act like one?

Well, I consider the first issue to be dismissible on its face. Not even gonna go there. The problem is, I need better artillery for the second issue, because I don't think I was very persuasive on that one.

The Stack Overflow community is probably the most seriously engaged online community I've ever encountered. When users ask a question, they expect a quick response, because that's what they usually get. When someone asks a question, we expect them to be ready (at least for a little while) to respond to comments asking for clarification. We've all seen a number of questions resolved in rather lengthy comment threads, rather than with posted answers.

I confess, the best I could do with this point was to say that "Well, it may resemble a forum in some respects, but it's really not." He didn't really buy that one, and I can't say that I blame him.

How can I better respond on point to this objection?

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    "I need better artillery for the second issue, because I don't think I was very persuasive on that one." You're going to struggle there, because he has a point. A very large portion of the site's userbase does treat it just like a regular forum. It varies by topic, but for many areas they greatly outnumber the people that consider SO to be any different. In other tags, the opposite is the case. As much as the site tries to be different, the nature of community moderation is that the community can (and sometimes does) moderate the site just like more traditional forums.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 24, 2018 at 19:24
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    "Stack Overflow isn't a forum."
    – user1228
    Commented Jan 24, 2018 at 19:40
  • 124
    If it's not a forum, why does it act like one?: Too broad. Primarily opinion-based.
    – TGrif
    Commented Jan 24, 2018 at 20:31
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    Though users want a forum. Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 0:52
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    To many StackOverflow is a Living Entity. Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 11:25
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    You could gently suggest to him that part of the reason for his unpleasant SO experience is because he came to SO with incorrect preconceptions, and then got upset when SO didn't behave the way he expected it to.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 11:46
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    To be honest I've found searching in all forums I've participated in to be cumbersome at best. That's simply the nature of a site which collects huge amounts of hard to index content, you always get too many hits.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 12:44
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    "Well, I consider the first issue to be dismissible on its face. Not even gonna go there" Eh? SO is famously dreadful for its search. Isn't the search being rewritten? Sure I read that somewhere. It needs it.
    – user146043
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 16:24
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    @DrEval: Whether its Google or Stack Overflow search portal, any kind of web search requires a certain minimum of perseverance. Most of the time, I find that "I couldn't find it with a search" equates to "It didn't immediately return with the exact solution to my exact problem, so I gave up." Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 16:33
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    @DrEval also: site:stackoverflow.com search terms is pretty good on google. Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 16:41
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    Comments are definitely a forum, as the previous comments prove. Answers are not a forum
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 16:49
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    Rather than saying that SO is not a forum, I tend to say that SO is not a "help site". I go on to qualify that by saying that we do render help, but that doing so is in service to our primary objective of building an archive of quality questions and answers. I think that's easier for people to accept, in part because it conveys a why. In particular, it responds to "why won't they help me?" and "why are they so mean / strict / intolerant?" Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 17:10
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    This screwdriver is the bluntest chisel I've ever used. Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 19:08
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    A question about real life that is on topic for meta SO! You get my +1
    – Didier L
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 19:12
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    @Alejandro: what if "lots of users" do not bother to read the [tour] or [how-to-ask] but barge in, dump their homework/requirement/bug-ridden code without any comment, and demand an answer "urgent plz"? They indeed have reason to describe their experience as 'not helpful' and 'unwelcoming'. And I say, Yay to that.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 9:30

5 Answers 5

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Well, tell them it is a forum!

...in the same way that City Hall is a forum, or their highschool mathematics class was a forum. Folks come here all the time to interact and share information and ideas, just like they do in every other forum... They're just expected to do so in a fairly focused manner, and aren't going to do well if they ignore that.

Look, this is one of those terminology questions that tend to send folks on a hunt for the right "magic words" that'll instantly convey understanding and agreement... And that's a lost cause; you ain't gonna convince someone that SO is great by telling them it's a Q&A site, any more than you're gonna convince a picky kid to eat their cucumber and tomato salad by telling them it's a fruit salad. There are layers of potential pedantry here, but strip 'em away and what you tend to end up with is a fundamental misunderstanding of why folks on this site expect what they do and why the site supports them.

Pedantry vs purpose

The whole "Stack Overflow is not a forum" thing goes back to the primeval days of the site, when it both looked and acted a hell of a lot more like a traditional discussion board than it does now: folks would leave replies to answers in other answers, create big ol' "list your favorite X" threads, ask tons of impossibly broad questions... The software kinda discouraged it, but not very much: truth is, you could totally use this site like folks use any other Internet forum if you really wanted to. We - collectively - just don't let each other do that. And a big part of that comes from reminding ourselves that we're different, that we're here to do something different, and that we're doing all that precisely because the default "forum" on the 'Net is... really awful.

Folks generally assume that "forum" means "disorganized trash-heap where everyone talks at once, uses 2-page signatures, and the answer you're looking for is somewhere between pages 30 and 97"... That is, unfortunately, the lowest common denominator for forums on the 'Net, but it's born out of a sort of tragedy of the commons that occurs when no one particularly cares about doing better. Forums are easy to participate in because no-one stops you from doing anything... But they're a headache to get anything useful back out of, because... Well, because no one stops anyone from dumping whatever the hell they want into it.

We want to do better; everything else follows from that. Specifically, we wanted to build a place where, if you find a previous thread that matches the question you're researching, you'll likely find an answer on the same page as the question itself - preferably right underneath the question. So we rigorously enforce a few requirements that are either ignored or given no more than lip service everywhere else:

  • We expect answers to directly answer the question asked, because otherwise you waste the first page in nonsense discussions about clarifying problem, the asker's avatar, the weather, some sports team...

  • We don't allow follow-up questions in answers, both because they tend to not get answered and because they're a pain to ever find again if they do get answered.

  • We want clear focused questions: if we don't allow 2 pages of back-and-forth discussion to draw out the scenario, it better be in the question or everyone's just gonna have to guess.

  • We close duplicate questions, and link to the originals - y'know that one guy on every forum who's answered every question for the last 5 years with "this has been discussed a hundred times already, use search!" but all search turns up is other questions he's posted the same answer to? Yeah, screw that guy. It's great to refer folks back to a great answer, but only if you give 'em a fast, unambiguous way to find it.

  • We don't let people comment unless they've a) written the post they're commenting on or b) demonstrated that they know something of relevance. Because otherwise you just get 1,000,000 comments about the weather and the size of various bits of anatomy and no one can stand to read far enough to get to the answers. There are thousands upon thousands of unanswered questions; if you can't answer 5 of them, chances are you can't ask a useful clarifying question in a comment either.

All of these are restrictions that usually aren't found on your normal Internet forum, and all of them came about after Stack Overflow launched - we decided to make them part of what Stack Overflow is.

In short, Stack Overflow isn't a forum because we - you & me & that guy over there & thousands of people we've never met - collectively decided to make it "not a forum". The software doesn't care whether or not we call it a forum or use it as one; the things that differentiate it from every other forum on the 'Net are myriad little decisions that we've all made and continue to make each day, for reasons that we've all kinda started to take for granted a bit.

But it's those reasons, those 1001 little decisions, that define our purpose - and if you want to teach someone who doesn't already know them how to understand us, it's the reasons that you have to convey... If they can understand those, they can call it whatever the hell they want.

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    So, something along the lines of "It's a forum, it's just not a discussion forum like you're used to. You have to follow the rules." -- Yeah, that's better than what I had. Commented Jan 24, 2018 at 19:41
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    Yup. The structure of the site is akin to the structure of a building: it facilitates what goes on inside, but doesn't dictate; folks get so used to seeing a certain sort of activity in a certain sort of structure that they associate the two, but they're not inexorably linked.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 24, 2018 at 19:43
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    I don't think this argument is going to be successful. When they ask "If it's not a forum, why does it act like one?", they're obviously not using the word in the sense you're trying to switch it to, and the deflection is really obvious. Also, the argument relies on them being familiar with a now rather archaic use of the word "forum", or being willing to accept that use once you explain it to them. Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 1:01
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    The reference isn't all that important, @user2357112 (unless you find yourself up against a pedant, in which case it's the only argument that is important). For most people, it's not worth your time to argue that something which to them clearly falls into a certain category doesn't belong there; how many people grew old trying to explain that a CRT monitor wasn't a computer only for CRTs to all but disappear and make the argument irrelevant? Explaining the differences between a tomato and a carrot is far more worthwhile than insisting a tomato isn't a vegetable.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 1:11
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    I'll just add my two cents and comment to the discussion here.
    – enderland
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 2:57
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    In other words, "forum" is equivalent to "that email thread at work with 400 replies" which is a lethal wall of text. No thanks. SO, for all of its shortcomings, is light years ahead of that hot mess.
    – user439793
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 5:46
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    @Shog9 I agree with user2357112 that the argument seems like a bit of three-card monte. Keep in mind that this was the flow of the conversation: "Stack Overflow is the worst forum I ever tried to use" - "Stack Overflow isn't a forum, it's a Q&A site." - "If it's not a forum, why does it act like one?" - "Well, ... it is a forum!" -- It smacks a bit of sophistry: it seems like you're arbitrarily switching up the definitions of the word "forum" to whatever suits your argument best at the moment.
    – R.M.
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 18:45
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    I don't think there's any value in using the term "q&a site" for folks who don't already know what we mean by that term, @rm - what are you gonna compare it to to define it, Yahoo Answers? If all that your audience knows is "forum" then this is a forum - it's just a forum with rules and standards. And those you can explain.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 19:21
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    I often see this comment on LQP/NAA: "Stackoverflow is no ordinary forum". Pretty sums this up. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 13:36
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Forums? No thanks.

Technically, sure, it's a forum.

a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Yeah, that fits. However, most of us think of something different when we hear "forum". We think of a "thread" that started with some random, or even well informed point, theory, or idea, which is followed by a trove of responses sometimes 85 pages long ordered by time posted and in no way worthy of having each response read. But what choice is there? You have to read every response, or at least up until the point you yourself come to some sort of piecemeal consensus or solution. Don't forget to take that thread and then just lump it in with thousands of others in order of posting. Yay, "forum".

Perhaps I am getting old, but when trying to find a solution to a problem, that process sucked. Bad. It was so bad instead I just bought books and basically gave up on the web for solutions.

Enter Stack Overflow

Stack Overflow inherits from Forum, but not all Forums are Stack Overflows. Stack Overflow is a next generation forum, if you will. A question and answer site.

"the confluence of wiki, discussion, blog, and reddit/digg ranking systems" -Jeff Atwood

Sure, there is forum in there, but it is not only a forum.

Atwood's Vision
This is Jeff Atwood's diagram somewhat outlining his original vision. The asterisk is Stack Overflow, meant to be a mix of each technology.

Stack Overflow's process of ranking content and providing limited scope spaces for solutions is a clear success. I find it highly useful, and have upvoted answers I found useful 2,787 times.

So, while Stack Overflow may resemble certain aspects of a forum, for example there is an original post (the question) followed by a series of responses (answers) - it also greatly deviates from that structure in the way that the responses and posts are ordered as well as the ability to individually comment along the way. Ordering matters, a lot. Comments, well, they are what they are.

"On Stack Overflow we require every new thread to be started with a question and every response to that question to be an attempt at answering it." -Adam Lear

Stack Overflow may not be perfect, but it has made significant progress towards improving the classical forum model by blending it with other technologies and approaches.

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    Flagging and removing "me too" and "did you ever work this out?" answers is one of the things that makes SO content so much better than reddit. If only – sigh – that accepted answer wasn't fixed to the top ...
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 24, 2018 at 23:07
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    This diagram need one more layer just to emphasize the fact that it's slightly above to all of that. At least that's what out community states so... ;-)
    – Skipper
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 11:20
  • Well, I'll write what I've written before: SE is where all forums intended for information sharing die. Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 11:42
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    You can tell that's not a recent diagram because it's got Digg on it.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 11:49
  • @OrangeDog: Digg still exists. Commented Mar 6, 2018 at 13:14
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit the Digg that exists now is something completely different than the Digg that used to be similar to Reddit.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 6, 2018 at 13:18
  • @OrangeDog: Okay fair enough :) Commented Mar 6, 2018 at 13:19
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    @usr2564301: My mistake - didn't read the word "answer" properly :) Commented Mar 6, 2018 at 13:19
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Most users who are dissatisfied with Stack Overflow are dissatisfied because of one primary factor: moderation of content. There is a heavy expectation placed on askers to write a good question.

  • Askers need to do a lot of research. They need to experiment and check ideas as they write the question.
  • It should be written with good grammar and a clear presentation of the problem. It should also be well formatted. This requirement is softer since a question that's good but poorly presented will probably be cleaned up by experienced users, but I work with people who were annoyed over minor corrections to their grammar.
  • Askers need to be responsive to requests for clarification.

As a consequence, we really only want questions from people who work hard on their question. This is a good thing. It's something that Stack Overflow established as an expectation early on because it wanted to avoid an Eternal September effect. By putting a lot of effort into their questions, askers are respecting the time and effort of answerers, and answerers feel like they're actually helping someone learn instead of just telling someone what to do. This is a positive feedback cycle: askers get the help they need, and answers get to help. Both feel rewarded for participating.

But those who don't put the effort into their posts will sometimes get punished for it. They'll be downvoted, or their question will be closed. This is necessary, but it is unpleasant.

So here's how you respond:

Yes, Stack Overflow tries to set the quality bar pretty high and tries to take a tough stance when it isn't met. That can make it frustrating and unpleasant if you don't want to spend a lot of time working on your post, but there's a very good reason for the way the site works. It produced the most useful programming information site in the world. The thing that makes it hard to participate is also the thing that gave it the reputation that made you want to ask a question there.

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  • Yeah, this one is pretty good too. With apologies, though, I may have to shorten it a bit for everyday use. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 4:48
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    Agree it's a bit unwieldly to fire off in conversation, but it's certainly got the right idea. Peeps come here expecting to just "get quick free help now", completely ignoring the fact that the reason it's an attractive place to get assistance is that we don't do "get quick free help now" — and, by extension, nobody here who's sane has any incentive to start doing "get quick free help now". Unfortunately this comment is useless as I have no idea how to more succinctly point that out than jpmc has! Commented Mar 6, 2018 at 13:16
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Why argue with him at all? Grab a laptop, sit down with the kid, go to Stack Overflow and find the solution to his problem. And if you don't find the answer, show him how to correctly ask his own question to get help from the community.

In other words, don't try to convince him of anything, just show him its value.

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You can answer this fairly easily, actually. Stack Overflow isn't forum because we don't want chit-chat.

Is that too short? Here's the longer version. A forum post often goes like this

I have this question [insert question here]

And then maybe we get some exposition

Wow, that's a question. My sister was once bitten by a moose after being asked that same thing!

Or an attempt at an answer, sometimes half asked

Did you try this thing here?

If there's no clear answer, we move onto the "Me too" phase

o-hai I have same problem! Can you help me? Tanks in a dance

There's maybe a dozen of those interspersed with other vague attempts at answers and comments. And, by now, we're on page 2. Or post 50. This is where you click the back arrow and try the next result in Google. That's why we want answers. I conquered the search dungeon, I don't want to find that my answer is in another castle.

The first rule of Stack Overflow Club is answer the question. Even if it's not good. Forums just don't work well when you want answers.

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    but... we have a chat system... made specifically for chatting...
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 17:31
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    @KevinB Not sure what chat has to do with Q&A or forums
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 18:01
  • It's part of the package that is SO.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 19:45
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    I can't really say I agree with this. Chit-chat isn't the main thing that differentiates SO from other forums. The biggest factor is (or is supposed to be) that SO requires you to actually work hard at asking a good, well researched question. To the point that half your questions never get asked because the answer falls out while you're refining the question.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 20:04
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    "requires" might not be the right word... considering how much gets through without that.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 20:29
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    Also, in theory at least, you're not supposed to answer the question if it isn't good. You're supposed to downvote or close it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 23:01
  • that link should help: youtube.com/… Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 21:39
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    Tanks in a dance? Tanks in a dance. (Turn down volume before clicking)
    – Davy M
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 23:00

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