58

The not relevant flag has an entirely different connotation to the no longer needed flag. It implies that any discussion about the post is relevant and can therefore stay. Well that's my thinking.

And instructions on kite flying can go.

Can we please have some clarification on where to go with the new comment flags?

What should the community expect?

What are the moderators expected to do?


First nested not relevant flag.

enter image description here

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  • 31
    Meh, any comment should be removed after a day automatically, that would stop the need for flagging, save everyone a job and change the use of comments altogether. Anything relevant will actually be put into the post for once.
    – Bugs
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:23
  • 23
    @Bugs Disagree. There are quite a few comments that are at most partial answers, yet definitely worth being kept around.
    – Seth
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:26
  • 40
    Que silence from the people who actually kicked this whole thing off.
    – Liam
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:27
  • 4
    You lost the opportunity of using as title "Make Comments Transitory Again"
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:29
  • 3
    @Seth "comments that are [...] answers" post those as answer. Done.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:31
  • 8
    There wasn't an announcement that said the meaning of the flag changed, so it didn't change.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:32
  • 9
    @Cerbrus: It clearly has changed, since we wouldn't be having this discussion otherwise. Denying objective reality isn't going to help anyone. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:42
  • 11
    @NicolBolas: I was subtly implying they should post an official statement it if did change.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:49
  • 22
    @Bugs Many comments are very relevant, and should stay as long as the q/a exists, such as the needed-way-too-often This code is wide open to SQL injection comment. Such things can't be expressed through voting, and often require you to fully rewrite a question/answer if you want to fix it, which is not appropriate. Downvotes can help, but if an answer is accepted and works, that only helps so much.
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:54
  • 2
    I still find it weird for use to still be expected to use "rude or abusive" for "unwelcoming" comments... considering the broad range of things people find unwelcoming.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:36
  • 2
    @KevinB that's changing also meta.stackexchange.com/questions/313446/…
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:18
  • 5
    The flag dialogue changing doesn't change what comments are allowed - it's just a change to the text options. I'm looking into it. :)
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:03
  • 10
    Comments have "saved my life" many times. When you are researching an obscure issue, I have often found a comment that eventually led me to the answer. Too aggressive deletion of comments will decrease the value of the site in the end. In fact in general I find there is simply too much deletion of everything in SO - and now that I can see deleted answers I have often found value there as well.
    – Mike Wise
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 3:19
  • 8
    @Bugs, your comment is one day old now. Time to remove it?
    – jarlh
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 11:10
  • 3
    @canon: Agreed. "No longer needed" implies that it was relevant at some point, while "not relevant" to me just reads as "off topic".
    – AkselA
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 19:17

4 Answers 4

5

This change has been (mostly) rolled back.

From my related Meta Stack Exchange answer:

This was a matter of many people putting in a lot of effort to get some design elements in place while doing a bit of cleanup. We spent more time talking about it and have rolled it back to the previous text with a slight adjustment to the explanation:

It's no longer needed.

The comment is outdated, conversational or not relevant to this post.

So, what's changed:

  1. We had some feedback internally that "obsolete" is potentially unclear for some users, so we're going with "outdated" instead.
  2. "Conversational" replaces "chatty" - they are synonymous and the former is a bit more formal.
  3. "Otherwise unnecessary" is very broad and may lead to some confusion for moderators trying to address these flags. As such, we've focused on "not relevant", which combines more reasonably with the flag type and catches some comments that were likely never needed.

Making this text perfect is something that likely won't ever happen but we think this is a pretty good option. Keep in mind that the list needs to be short, so don't take it as exclusive. If the comment isn't needed any more - or was never needed - this is the right flag to use.

If there's a major block of comments that aren't being covered in one of the default reasons, the best option will be to use a custom flag (now called "something else") because it makes it much more obvious to us that such a flag reason is needed - we can analyze custom comment flags to see if there are common trends in the flag text.

Please excuse any confusion this has caused over the last week - it was very much unintentional.

As such, there's not much of a change here (any more).

The important thing to remember, regardless of what the flagging reasons are - the comment policy for the network hasn't changed. We're still encouraging you all to clean up the comments section of any content that doesn't need to be retained, whether that's a comment that's been addressed in an edit, a comment that was never needed in the first place, or a comment that is somehow rude or abusive.

Yes, it's important that our flag reasons make it easy for users to identify what comments are acceptable since many users don't read the help or privileges pages and we're endeavoring to keep this in mind. Thanks for your patience while we work out some kinks and please keep communicating with us when we err. Just as flags are an important part of moderation, knowing when we've taken a confusing turn helps us stay on track.

4
  • I notice that the original flag reasons for each flag have been reinstated i.e. obsolete, not constructive
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 3:17
  • Have or have not? They still seem to say "not relevant"... which I'm guessing is an oversight.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 3:21
  • Have, but I don't have any not relevant flags in my history, so I had to go way back to find one / yeh I did a test one, it's showing up as not relevant
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 3:24
  • 1
    I don't think those reverted - I think they never changed. Those flag reasons were combined into the NLN reason about two years ago. meta.stackexchange.com/a/313549/284336
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 3:30
43

I suggest that both sides (users and moderators) ignore random copy changes like that, unless there was a discussion that led to such changes.

Also: the renaming was retroactive, all "no longer needed" flags in flag history being "not relevant" now. I conclude from this that those flags were still correct as "not relevant" flags. So, nothing changes.

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  • 10
    Agreed, the person who implemented the change for this said on MSE he didn't even know why the wording changed.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 16:13
  • 2
    @TylerH: Do you have a link to that?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 7:07
  • @Cerbrus It's in a comment on meta.stackexchange.com/a/313436
    – user743382
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:47
  • @Cerbrus Direct comment link: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/313433/…
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 13:42
  • 1
    I take issue with "random copy changes" to my flagging history which appear to change the meaning of my flags.
    – canon
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 19:19
0

The "It's not relevant" flag is having some different use than the "No longer needed" flag. It seems that even if a comment is no longer needed, if it can still be considered relevant, it stays.

Take for example the following question. Someone posted the comment "Related: Milestone information overlapping other text", and I upvoted the comment. Then someone decided it was more than related, that it was in fact a duplicate, and flagged it as such. Then the question was closed as a duplicate, but the "Related:" comment wasn't cleaned up because it wasn't the duplicate comment. The result was the same link being present at the top (In the duplicate banner) and at the bottom (In the comments):

Doubly linked!

Under the "No longer needed" flag, I could have flagged the bottom comment to clear it up because the link is already present, so the comment is no longer needed. However apparently it is still relevant, as my flag saying it was not relevant was declined:

Not relevant flag declined :'(

I suppose the idea behind this is that the comment is still relevant, since the question it links is still relevant even though the information is repeated in the duplicate banner already. It's just something to keep in mind though that, by my understanding of this flag being declined, if something it no longer needed but still relevant, it is no longer flag-worthy.

3
  • This story is more about "if a mod can't tell that the comment should be removed by looking only at the comment itself (which is what they do), use a custom flag and explain".
    – user6655984
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 18:18
  • @user6655984 Are you sure that is what it is? It seems to me that they are treating the "not relevant" flag differently than "no longer needed." I don't want to bother a mod by raising another flag for something they already decided to decline because it's not something that's supposed to be flagged anymore.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 19:10
  • One can draw many different trends, given one data point. At least we know from an employee that the change was not intended to affect what gets flagged with this reason.
    – user6655984
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 19:24
-27

Well, let's categorize some different sets of comments, and see where No Longer Needed differs from Not Relevant.

  1. Requests to improve the post, which have already been acted upon.

    A comment based on the state of a post, when the post is no longer in that state, is Not Relevant to that post. And obviously, such comments are No Longer Needed.

  2. Requests to improve the post, which the OP has clearly read and chosen not to act on.

    Since the OP has not deigned to oblige the person making the comment, such comments are No Longer Needed. Even if the commenter (or other commenters) believe that such changes are necessary, the OP said no. Harassing the user won't help anyone. Similarly, if the OP has decided not to make those changes, then the OP considers those requests to be Not Relevant to their post.

    In those cases, it's best to downvote/close as appropriate, and move on.

  3. Pointing out side-issues in the post.

    These would be things like asking why a question is approaching a problem in a certain way. Why are you using version X of the API instead of version Y. And so forth. This even applies to "XY Problem" comments.

    These comments are usually not No Longer Needed. However, they are almost certainly Not Relevant to the post, since the post is the way it is. If someone asks a question about X, but their real unstated problem is Y and there's a better way to handle Y than X, "XY Problem" comments can't really help improve that question. Why? Because the question is about X; if the OP changes it, then they've asked a completely new question, and we generally frown on massive in-situ changes to the direction of a question.

    Of course, the question is this: do we still want those comments? They do after all contain significant informational content for users. Particularly "XY Problem" issues. But at the same time, these more informational comments rarely improve the question, since they're often either discussing something that can't be changed (the OP didn't choose to use version X instead of version Y) or asking to have the question be radically altered.

    So it's not clear to me whether it's a good thing to remove these comments.

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  • 25
    I am confused. It is my understanding that posts on SO should not primarily help the OP only, but become part of a repository of questions and answers that are useful for others as well. Your answer reads as if OPs question is only about their specific problem. Would comments of category 2 not be useful for other users and could lead them to improve a question? How are they no longer needed in that case? Am I misunderstanding? (Same applies to point 3) Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:25
  • 1
    @ModusTollens: Comments are not posts; they're comments. Informational content is supposed to be in answers. And yes, the OP's question is supposed to be about their question. It becomes useful to others based on the fact that they will have similar or identical problems. And if #2 comment help someone, it would only be by accident, not by a well-designed system. Such comments are useful to the OP and the OP alone. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:27
  • 35
    So I didn't misunderstand your post, but I disagree. Comments pointing out problems were pretty helpful for me in the past when doing research on SO, not only for the OP. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:29
  • 35
    @YvetteColomb The points don't hold up very well. Imagine a question asked in a high frequency tag needing improvement. So, when OP doesn't want to improve and votes to delete the comment, there may be other users posting it again, not realizing there was a comment asking for improvement before. It also prevents the original comment from gaining upvotes. Upvoted comments asking for information from OP send a strong signal - for others and the OP. (XY Problem comments are even more important.) Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:27
  • 4
    A workaroud for repeated posted and deleted comments (my concern from my previous comment) would be a moderator comment after a removed comment: "please don't comment asking for [...], this has already been suggested and declined" :P Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:40
  • Re: comment by CM Catija "The flag dialogue changing doesn't change what comments are allowed - it's just a change to the text options. I'm looking into it. :)". I've accepted this answer.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:10
  • 5
    The notion of removing such comments is ill-conceived. Whether the OP thinks they are relevant is irrelevant. Why are you making us compose a comment that was already posted & not allowing a record of how relevant it was--namely by our upvoting it? (Rhetorical.)
    – philipxy
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 5:00
  • 3
    @YvetteColomb I'm not so sure you should accept this answer, since you are a mod doing so makes it somewhat official and Catija's comment suggest that there is no change. It's probably better to wait for SE staff answer or just let the community vote on what they feel Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 9:45
  • 5
    The XY problem is very real. Beginning developers, developers lacking certain knowledge or developers stuck in some kind of crappy framework may think their only solution to solve some problem is to do some obscure thing that someone in their right mind wouldn't think about. Given we're still building a knowledge base here, both the OP and later visitors should know that what they're trying to do should not be the way to do things. If they want to, sure, an answer explaining how to do so is fine. But a comment asking whether they're sure they want to do so is also fine.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 11:15
  • I disagree with examples 1 and 2; relevance is not determined by whether the OP acts on it or decides whether or not to act on it. A comment about fixing something is still relevant to the post because it's literally addressing the post... it doesn't get more relevant than that. Such a comment is only irrelevant to future readers, and not even guaranteed to be irrelevant then (do you want to see where someone got some edit from or a link that was moved into the post? etc.). Anyone who could be helped by an audit trail would find such old comments relevant to their needs as well.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 13:49
  • @TylerH: That's basically an argument to never delete comments ever. If the post has been fixed in accord with the comment, then the comment looks very much like it's lying, like it's claiming that the post is missing information that it provides. And who cares about an "audit trail"? What does it matter how missing info got into the question? I thought we were trying to be a repository of knowledge here; does it matter how it got there? It's not like there's no edit history on the question. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 13:52
  • 1
    @NicolBolas No, it's an argument to not use the phrase "Not relevant" as the deletion reason for all things that aren't abusive/rude. "No longer needed" worked perfectly. Even "Not relevant to future readers" would have been better. And people who moderate the site care about an audit trail. You don't have much moderation activity so it's understandable that you don't appreciate such related concerns.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 14:20
  • @TylerH: I use the site rather than moderating it. And I prefer to have a clean site, free of garbage. Personally, I have a great appreciation for other SE sites like RPG.SE and IPS.SE, where they have a culture of near-zero-tolerance for comments on posts. Moderators quickly dispatch comment threads to chat where most of them belong. On those sites, you see a question, you read the answers, and you don't have to sift through someone's dissertation of why this particular question/answer is wrong, followed by a back-and-forth between that person and the OP. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 14:23
  • 4
    @NicolBolas No one is forcing you to read comments here, but I agree it is nice to be able to not have to scroll so much due to excessive comments (RPG.SE is not a great example, though; several of their mods have no clue about a culture of moderation). All we are asking for is that flag reasons make sense. A lot of people are going to stop flagging comments due to this change because they find comments relevant. Technically a "+1 I like this idea" comment is "relevant" to the post; do you want to see those comments start surviving more often? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way).
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 14:30

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