147

I love Stack Overflow and it has helped me tremendously. I have only asked 25 questions, but I cannot count the number of times an existing Q&A has been helpful for me. I am a firm believer that the primary objective of this site is to build a library of Q&A to which helping the asker is a secondary goal. I always thought that there is some consensus about that.

Sometimes, if a question is not clear enough to me, I refrain from answering a question even though I am almost sure that I have an answer that helps the asker. Instead I try to help improve the question through comments and edits - if that fails I try to filter through close and downvotes. This is often frustrating, but a recent event leaves me baffled.

A question with incomplete code and a non-verbatim error message

*init called after *finalize invoked

which overall leads me to believe this error is just the tip of the iceberg. Anyway, an answer consisting of

*INIT() and *FINALIZE can only be called once per program, as your error hints at.

and an referenced copy of another answer comes in. The asker seems happy with the answer while I suspect they still may have misconceptions - more importantly I believe the current Q&A would be useless or possibly dangerously confusing to anyone else.

Now these comments unfold:


chain of comments


The last two comments are now deleted.

The asker is a longtime user with > 200 questions on SO. They now have confirmation that the primary purpose of SO is to answer their questions rather than building a Q&A library.

Why was my last comment deleted? Was it not in line with the site philosophy or was it really abusive?

Is the primary purpose of SO still to build a Q&A library? If so, how can we communicate that better?

23
  • 62
    Was that last comment by you deleted by a mod? That's certainly strange, there's nothing rude or abusive about it in my opinion.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:19
  • 28
    To address just the comments (your question about how to better educate users as to the goal of the site is a much more difficult question): The two comments were deleted due to a comment flag. It was clear that the OP had read your comment, and as such had served its purpose. I didn't mean to leave the thread in a state which re-enforced their side of the argument. I should have deleted their (now last) comment as well, but I guess I must have been distracted... Sorry about that.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:30
  • 15
    Since the comment is already captured here, I'll delete it now. In any case, your comment was not abusive, despite their claim. If you were not contacted by a moderator, you've nothing to worry about.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:30
  • 65
    @Rob but I guess the flagger had their flag marked as helpful, so they will continue to believe they were right to flag the comment as abusive and as such will flag others as well
    – Adelin
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:38
  • 56
    This sounds like yet another case of abuse towards curators. I cannot think of anything that you could have changed in this interaction (other than just stopping before escalating, which sometimes we cannot even predict). At this point I just wonder if that OP's flag was marked as "helpful" or "declined".
    – E_net4
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:38
  • 6
    @Adelin I could have gone out of my way to decline the flag and then delete the comment, but declined comment flags don't contribute to flag warnings or bans, and the flagging page isn't exactly discoverable, so it's unlikely they would have noticed. We don't even get to leave a reason for declining flags.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:52
  • 13
    @Zulan, I commend your commitment to educating users. I've given up and just go with the flow. Mark as a duplicate if I know a good canonical, answer with an explanation if it's answerable, or VTC. In my experience, educating can't be reinforced if users are getting their poor questions answered (that's all most of them care about). Mods can't do much either. The [tag] community has to care, what I mean by this is you need to be able to tell the community (e.g. via chat) that there's a poor question, and they need to react by mass close votes before the poor question gets answered.
    – jpp
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 8:53
  • 20
    @Rob "It was clear that the OP had read your comment, and as such had served its purpose" - so you can flag a comment as "no longer needed" to "mark as read" and get it removed? Even if the recipient has not taken any action on it, while they should've?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 9:07
  • 9
    @CodeCaster Well... people are not obliged to take the advice of a comment. There's no use in having a comment thread of debate if it's clear nothing productive is going to come from it. Especially if it starts generating flags. I personally will tend to leave one or two constructive comments remaining (if there are any) to prevent future visitors from leaving the same feedback on the post - or if the comment is, for example, pointing out a flaw in an answer. If comments are the root of dispute between users, there's no point keeping them around.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 9:17
  • 56
    You're right, but you'll never, ever win that battle with an OP who holds this mindset. I long ago stopped trying. Sadly this also IMO means that -- to not-really-but-sort-of-answer the question in your title, we can't, and that's probably why the saturation of the site has left it being quite far from a nice repo of questions, and why the team has started turning it into a "welcoming" social media platform instead :P Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 9:18
  • 37
    Yup - SO, as it was, is over. No measure. suggested so far. will reduce the number of rep-whatevers answering bad questions while, at the same time, not reduce SO ad-view revenue stream. It's homework-dumps all the way down:( The squad of curators can level the descent a bit by putting in more effort on dupe-linking bad questions than the army of OP's do on copy/pasting them, but that kind of tide-stemming is not sustainable, so why bother? Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 9:42
  • 7
    You're not wrong though. This site's primary goal is so people can help themselves. Unfortunately, there is and as it seems always will be a gaping disconnect between goal and what people feel entitled to use the site for. The goal: that people Find all the answers! What people want to do: Ask all the questions! Any inkling that asking was the wrong thing to do... well it ranges from mild discontent to a disturbance in the force. The answering part of the equation has the mirror effect of it where people Answer all the questions! rather than Find all the existing answers!
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 9:53
  • 9
    @Rob I really fail to see the point of removing comments unless they should not have been made in the first place - should I have refrained from making these comments? 1) I do see a difference between a "dispute between users" and a misconception of one side. You are taking sides with any moderation action. 2) Removing may very well lead to the same conversion unfolding with another caretaker at the very point you deleted. 3) We do not even clean up constructive comments that were acted upon, do we? (except for automatically generated ones). Why bother with moderation in this case?
    – Zulan
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 11:38
  • 14
    @Zulan We clean up constructive comments all the time. Comments are temporary "Post-It" notes left on a question or answer. They're not meant to stay around forever.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 11:45
  • 34
    @Gimby many of them are duplicates, many contrived code, most useless for future SO users/visitors, the effort required by curators to handle them effectively is greater than the effort expended in asking them. The unresearched, no-effort dumps are more abusive than the 'snarky' comments that seem to deserve a massive, and mostly self-defeating and fruitless, effort to prevent:( Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 12:07

3 Answers 3

58

There is no effective way to communicate this to users. And if SO is operating correctly, we shouldn't need to.

We have specific standards in place for questions. These standards help ensure that questions are reasonably scoped and genuinely answerable. But in so doing, such questions are also good candidates for building such a repository. Such questions are searchable by their problem statement, and they ought to produce good, actionable, focused answers. So as long as people ask questions according to the standards we lay out, we shouldn't have to tell people that their questions are part of a repository of knowledge.

The user gets the information they need, and we get the content we want. That's how the system is meant to work.

The problem is not that many users don't understand our purpose. The problem is that many users don't understand and frequently violate our standards. If they followed our standards, they wouldn't have to understand the purpose of those standards.

As for how we uphold that, we do as we have done. You upvote good content; you downvote bad content. You close questions that violate our standards. And so forth. SE is trying to build some tools to make it less likely for users to post bad content, which will hopefully reduce the torrent of bad questions.

8
  • 16
    Yes, the answer here is essentially try better to guarantee the input so that it requires less processing, and we're optimistic that the new wizard interface will accomplish this once we have it deployed and a few rounds of adjustments into it.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 14:43
  • 4
    "You upvote good content; you downvote bad content. You close questions that violate our standards. And so forth." I agree, but then we're hit by the "You should leave a comment to say why you VTC / downvoted!" brigade, and then when you do, often even if it's a constructive comment, you're hit by the "You're making SO a really unwelcoming place!" brigade... I tend not to downvote / VTC much at all these days, extreme cases aside, for the above reasons. But I'm not sure that's the most helpful course of action either. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:24
  • 2
    If the "You should leave a comment to say why you VTC / downvoted!" brigade comes by on meta, you dupeslap them so quickly they'll reconsider their stance. If they comment on Stack Overflow, you flag them no longer needed and don't comment, and go on with your day.
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 11:16
  • 1
    Hmm, so telling users “we’re not Nazis demanding standards just because we like rules, but because there’s a purpose behind these standards” is wrong?
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 11:37
  • 2
    @Holger: It's not wrong; it's just unlikely to help. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 13:10
  • 2
    @TimPost I hope there's a lot more work done on that wizard with regards to the suggested duplicate step... and, by extension, site search.
    – canon
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 18:28
  • 1
    So you expect authors to independently figure out on their own what was wrong with their post when they get a downvote or a close vote? You expect them to learn our standards and norms without guidance, when many of the norms are only documented in random, non-FAQ Meta posts? That's absurd. Most of the people who post bad content have already demonstrated (through that content) they have difficulty with this sort of independent learning/thinking. Explaining that we have goals beyond just standards on questions in isolation will help more people understand our standards and adhere to them.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 18:10
  • 1
    @jpmc26: "So you expect authors to independently figure out on their own what was wrong with their post when they get a downvote or a close vote?" I don't expect them to understand what is wrong with their post when I say what's wrong with them. Explaining our goals will not help them since they do not care. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 20:02
21

SO is no longer about building a Q&A library. What's important now is making people who don't know the rules of this site, don't know how to program, don't want to put any effort into writing a good questions, don't want to learn anything feel "welcomed".

If you care about quality of content more than people's feelings prepare to get banned for a month for no reason at all and then for 3 months for a one time transgression.

I'm done with this site, maybe I will use the unpaid volunteers here once in a while to do some research for me and save me a few minutes but I'm done being one, I suggest you do the same, if enough people who are actually capable of answering questions will leave for awhile maybe there is still a chance to save SO.

5
  • 6
    reference for 20Kers: Are we abusing our delete votes on Meta? "delete votes hanging around on controversial answers are somewhat counter-productive... In one case, the answer attracted 17 upvotes, which were slightly outweighed by 23 downvotes. Frankly, this is a bit ridiculous..."
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:55
  • 10
    Folks, while Oleg's answer could be seen as lashing out, it's not attacking anyone specifically, it's just (mostly) expressing dissatisfaction with the manner that they believe we as a company are seeing things. Given that this is meta, there's no profanity - I'm not going to delete it. You can down vote if you disagree with it, but deleting this means I've gotta basically delete everything else on meta that complains about people with new / low skill levels, and that's .. a lot without having a policy discussion. [1/2]
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 16:01
  • 8
    Since there's no technical reason I can agree with to remove it, an employee deleting this post seems too much like removing dissension, and that's just not the kind of thing we want to do. [2/2]
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 16:01
  • 5
    @Oleg: "If you care about quality of content more than people's feelings prepare to get banned for a month for no reason at all and then for 3 months for a one time transgression." It's funny; I care about the quality of content more than people's feelings. Yet I haven't been banned at all. I guess it's not about what you care about, but instead whether you're willing to violate our posting or commenting standards when you care about it. Caring should not be used as a shield from the rules. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:25
  • 5
    @NicolBolas, I agree. I concur with Oleg's assessment of SO's current attitude, and I wish it could change back toward the Q&A library endeavor, but I've never been banned. So I upvoted the answer for its first paragraph. I wish Oleg just stopped there...
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:40
13

Nicol's answer communicates the gist of what I was going to say. Asking questions is not a shallow puddle, and folks often unwittingly fall into a pond that they weren't expecting.

We're making some changes on the front end to help people discover that there is a skill to asking beyond pasting code into the editor, and helping to better set people's expectations when it comes to what we expect. Those are the most important things, because if done correctly, we continue to build a high-quality resource even if 80% of the folks using the site simply see it as a convenient way to get answers, even if we're a little strict about quality.

But, that's not to say that we're doing great in communicating that mission, either. Stack Overflow was built, well, by programmers. Programmers aren't always the best folks to come up with UX copy, or notice when (to an outside perspective) stuff seems like it's been bolted on multiple times to multiple things. Our design department has always been great, but now it's even more awesome, because we have the talents of researchers and folks that have a primary focus on owning and unifying the user experience (UX).

That means, while we don't need to scream WE'RE BUILDING A HIGH QUALITY REPOSITORY OF ANSWERS TO ALL PROGRAMMING QUESTIONS until our voices echo off the moon, we can be giving users a better sense of purpose based on their endeavor, which will increase engagement, and the probability that any given person will stick around after hitting 250-ish rep. And yes, a sense of purpose tends to make people care quite a bit more about the fine details of something.

There's one thing about your question that particularly drew my attention, however:

Sometimes, if a question is not clear enough to me, I refrain from answering a question even though I am almost sure that I have an answer that helps the asker.

That's good instinct to have, because I've seen great answers pull mediocre questions well above water, especially if the person answering (who understands the question well) actually goes back and edits the question. It's not always that you can do this, and you kinda need the OP to be responsive so you can be sure you're on the right track, but if you get a feeling in your stomach that you could nail something - it's probably worth investigating. Check for duplicates, be sure to engage and edit, but you might end up hitting the rep cap and getting a couple of badges for your time.

Again, these gems aren't common, but usually worth your time if you spot one. Otherwise, just leave helpful feedback and try to be friendly so the person is more likely to accept and internalize it. Even if we perfect the input to the very best it could possibly be, a less-than-trivial percent of questions asked are still going to lack details needed to be answered. Programmers learn by making mistakes, and a few belly-flops while trying to get help from busy volunteers is an experience that many of us have had starting out.

18
  • 31
    “That means, while we don't need to scream WE'RE BUILDING A HIGH QUALITY REPOSITORY OF ANSWERS TO ALL PROGRAMMING QUESTIONS until our voices echo off the moon” - I don’t understand. It is clear that the purpose of SO is not communicated well enough. Why not have a banner on the Ask Question page clearly stating SO’s quality expectations (preferably in bold + full caps of course)? Commented Jul 31, 2018 at 23:44
  • 6
    @Pete: "Why not have a banner on the Ask Question page clearly stating SO’s quality expectations (preferably in bold + full caps of course)?" Because people on the Internet are conditioned to ignore masthead banners at the top of pages. Thus, it will communicate with pretty much nobody. Also, you cannot "clearly" state SO's quality expectations in a paragraph. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 0:42
  • 7
    @NicolBolas I agree that giant banners are no good. Perhaps a less spammy but unambiguous “Stack Overflow aims to create a repository of high quality Questions and Answers. [Read more]” right beneath the “Ask a Question” header? My issue is that the asker is not reminded of the purpose at all. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 1:09
  • 4
    Given an unclear question, I'll sometimes edit the question into the interesting part of what they seem to be asking about, so it's worth answering. If it turns out that wasn't what they wanted to know, they should have been clearer in the first place. Often the boring beginner basic part of the question is taken care of by an example in the answer, or they will ask in comments. Or they will abandon the question and we're left with a potentially-useful interesting Q&A, whether or not it helped the person that posted. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 2:06
  • 14
    To heck with quality expectations, that's just boring trivia about long term gains that makes people zone out. It needs to be far more firmly established that Stack Overflow is for finding answers primarily. An ask question wizard is fine and dandy, but call it a Find Answer wizard and have asking a new question as the path to not finding anything existing.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 7:08
  • And please, just a reminder, in your work on the wizard and Ask a Question page, pop up a big red banner and block the submission of questions that include the phrase "what's a good library" or "looking for a library" :-)))
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 21:48
  • 1
    Tim, I wonder--and I realize that this might be technically hard, confusing, or otherwise impractical, but bear with me--I wonder if it would be "worth" suppressing the visibility of answers for some duration (a day?) so that if a question is bad (eg as the one in this question is) the asker doesn't get their 'help' due to a Fast Gun, allowing the Q time to be closed (and if its closed, those suppressed answers could be deleted). If left open, the suppressed answers become visible as normal (further suppressing FG answers: if a better answer arrived later, it would show up at the same time). Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 4:54
  • @Draco18s that would be unfair to those having a well researched, high quality, but urgent question.
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 11:41
  • @Holger Hence my preface of "otherwise impractical." Maybe it only triggers for low-rep accounts. Maybe the time limit is only an hour. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:45
  • 1
    @Holger To be fair, we don't really care about the urgency of questions in any other situation, so why care when thinking about visibility delays? See this.
    – Nic
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 18:09
  • 1
    @NicHartley: Yes, we don't care about urgency. But if the question is good, and the answer is good, why should we want to prevent the asker from seeing the answer? For any length of time. Not caring about urgency also means not punishing fast answers just for being fast. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:16
  • @NicolBolas To discourage people from abusing the site for quick answers to questions they should have spent five minutes answering by themselves. Someone with a good question that they can't answer on their own will wait an hour or two, then get an answer, and know to expect that because we'd put it in How To Ask or similar. Someone ignoring the standards with an easy-to-Google question will get frustrated at the lack of immediate satisfaction and try to find the answer in another way -- which is exactly what we want to encourage.
    – Nic
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:19
  • @NicolBolas That idea says nothing about punishing fast answers, by the way. It's all about simply not showing the question for a brief period. There's no punishment for somehow finding it anyway and answering, just no easy way to get there to do that.
    – Nic
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:20
  • @NicHartley: I don't much care for the collateral damage from such a change. It seems far too heavy handed for something that could be handled much better in other ways. It's a feature that assumes bad faith, rather than good faith on the part of the asker. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 19:22
  • 2
    @NicHartley that’s a different thing. We don’t care if the OP says, “it’s urgent”, because we don’t prioritize questions according to the questioner’s subjective urgency. Because under normal circumstances, we don’t delay answers anyway, so whether the OP says “it’s urgent” or not, they will get the answer as fast as possible. That’s why questions should not contain such noise.
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:34

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .