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I am referring to the recent hot topic in particular:

Is downvoting harmful and should it be removed completely?

(Screenshot of the latest revision for <10k users, in case the question is deleted).

It is yet another "downvotes bad" post (still, even after the edits). It got downvoted to smithereens, closed, and eventually deleted.

That mess of a question was then picked as the subject of a "Meta is too eager to delete" question. That single action caused the original question to go from "quickly forgotten" to a "highly contested territory" status.

Whether you agree that the deletion is justified or not is irrelevant to the question at hand: what we ended up with is that the revision history on it now looks like a war zone:

post history part 1 post history part 2

Several controversial actions were taken that make me question if we are doing the right thing here. The post was:

  • Re-opened before being edited into something constructive.
  • Re-opened by gold badge holders while it's very clearly a controversial situation that no single user should force their will on... Twice.
  • Re-opened despite the fact the OP clearly isn't interested in a constructive discussion.
  • Re-opened despite multiple duplicate targets clearly explaining why downvotes are an integral part of the system.
  • Dragged onto Twitter, a place with a questionable understanding of how SO works and is not known for facilitating coherent arguments instead of relying on mob mentality.

The only reason the question is getting that much attention is that it was used to illustrate a point. This is the meta effect on Meta itself, and it is really making a mess of Meta curation.

So I ask you, why don't we judge a question by its own merits?

Please do not reopen such posts because you think they should not be deleted. Try to forget about the Meta question you were linked from and just look at the question itself.

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  • 43
    Perhaps if it wasn't deleted in the first place, if wouldn't have made a martyr..
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:37
  • 16
    That doesn't matter though, now does it? The resulting question could've been written in a general sense, the link could've been left out. Users should be judging a question by its own merits, not by whatever meta question they came from.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:39
  • 11
    On it's own merit, perhaps also then it still shouldn't have been deleted. The only reason why us lower users can even see it it because it was linked and un-deleted. We.. normally don't even get to see those post. Not only are we not part of the war, we're completely left out of the discussion too. How are we suppose to know those discussion have even taken place before?
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:42
  • 5
    Please stop talking about the deletion, that's not what this question is about.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:44
  • 48
    @Scratte I’m a low rep user on SO too, and I view “being left out of the mess” as a service. The question was a user venting because one of his recent questions on SO had been downvoted; it sought no discussion, it never intended to make use of Meta; it was only placed here because at least Meta has people to yell at. Beyond that, it’s a topic that’s been discussed 98,317 times, and nothing has changed since the last time it was raised. There’s nothing to be said. So, the question should not have been posted in the first place, and its proper state is non-existence.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:48
  • 18
    "Not necessarily because I think it should be re-opened, but because those posts get deleted as soon as they're closed!" And that's exactly what's going wrong here. Pity re-open votes on, frankly, junk.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:49
  • 12
    I kind of feel this post is a bit ironic though. To me it comes across as another rant ;)
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:03
  • 12
    Oh sure, it's a bit ranty, but I'd like to think I at least make some good points there, instead of "Downvotes bad!".
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:04
  • 4
    The only reason it's "hot" is because it's a bad question that resulted into a meta discussion. "so the users that do not have 10k rep can at least see what's going on" I disagree. Not deleting something if it should be deleted, just so people can still see it kinda removes the point of deleting stuff.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:10
  • 3
    Better off without martyrs, regardless of what they're made of. If we really do need martyrs, there's plenty of trolls to choose from.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:24
  • 10
    I'm more pissed-off at the fact that the question was closed and could be deleted; then someone with the gold discussion badge decided to unilaterally reopen it. Because now I can't vote to re-close it.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:37
  • 6
    "Don't re-open junk because you think it shouldn't be deleted." But isn't this forum a place for people to have opposing opinions and not a hive mind? Yes, some people take it to an extreme, but just because you think something is junk, other people don't. I find that many people think everything is junk when it isn't. I'm having that problem with my own question. They refuse to read it because it's "too long" and had "too much info", yet "not enough info", even though they didn't read it. If there was a way to prevent DV or CV on the same Q or A for opposing reasons, your Q would make sense. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:33
  • 4
    @computercarguy "except that you said "A question can not be deleted if it's not closed [first]." and I showed that it can be" you're missing the context which is deletion via votes.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:07
  • 7
    If anything, the linked question makes a great argument for delete and undelete votes being limited to one per type per user per post.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 15:45
  • 6
    @Cerbrus - I wasn't serious about including more of it in the post, sorry :) Since some took an issue with the post looking like a statement and seemingly not inviting community input, I edited it to try to convey that it does - I am no Shog9, so please do feel free to rollback in its entirety, especially if you feel the edit conflicts with your intention.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 16:11

7 Answers 7

16

This is a tough one. I feel that if I just combine the two answers that I wrote on recent events into a summary here, this will pretty much answer this question in particular.

A: It is time that we have a Super Downvote!

Judging a question by its own merits includes employing our curation-wise votes when, and only when they should be applied. We don't have strict guidelines for when to vote up and down, but the criteria for closure and deletion are supposed to be stronger. Educate our users on these votes, and provide better communication tools on Meta to facilitate discerning wheat from chaff. Quoting:

Improve our guidelines and criteria for distinguishing Meta discussions worth keeping from those that should be taken away. From yesterday's incident, it is clear that we don't quite have a consensus on this. [...] even a thoughtful and concerning question can be the source of unnecessary drama and unwarranted soapboxes for ill-posed opinions.

In other words, we can, and maybe now should, look for ways to boost the value of Meta as a platform to assist in maintaining the site and propose features. This in turn should help the community use curation tools more effectively.

A: Can we slow down on the deletes on Meta, folks?

Although question deletion is known to be fast on Meta, sometimes even unnecessarily, the linked question is a terrible example of it. Despite the clear signal through the massive downvotes that the proposal is bad, the way not to martyrize misinformed users is not to turn their questions into a drama show.

And since I wrote these before noticing the re-closure and re-opening of the linked question, an addendum: As much as we understand that some people would like to observe a question after it's been deleted, it's a serious problem that people are voting to reopen questions with the single purpose of keeping a circus active and/or visible for longer. That is not in accordance to our curation guidelines, and as per the nature of the question, is a disservice.

One can only wish to have a silver bullet, but this subject is neither new nor easy. For what it's worth, Stack Overflow has still stood ground against other online venues related with programming and software development. This weekend, we have heard voices advocating change. Let us reach a compromise to continue investing in the platform. Do not fear change, but fear the consequences of those changes. So long as proposals are discussed constructively and standing on prior work, we should be fine. Time could even tell that the current Meta format was a mistake, who knows.

But until then, please use your votes properly, and protect the site from these emotional uprises.

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  • Thanks! It certainly isn't an easy problem to solve, as what we'd have to solve is basically user behavior... You make some good points about education and communication!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:26
  • Why would people be voting reopen in order to undelete, instead of voting undelete? That doesn't make sense.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:32
  • 2
    @Cerbrus For a [discussion] question that has only 2 answers, and which was posted just a couple of hours ago, is accepting an answer so soon commonly done? I'm not saying you've made up your mind already, but I think waiting a while for other answers might make it look like you're more willing to change your mind if there are valid arguments put forward.
    – cigien
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:32
  • 3
    I can always change the mark if a better answer shows up :-) this does answer my question, though, and I think it’s a very good answer.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:32
  • @OrangeDog I'm not sure I follow your comment. There were people in the comments in this question hinting that they would vote to reopen questions, so that the reopening would cancel the deletion votes and so keep the question visible and active longer.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:44
  • @E_net4wantsmoreflags ah, I thought you meant already-deleted questions. There's probably a design issue in the system there, but I have no idea how to improve it. The problem will get worse the more eager a small number people are to delete things.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:45
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    "Please use your votes properly". Sure.. everyone will agree with that. Only we don't agree what properly is.
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:01
  • 3
    @Scratte We do agree on at least some of what improperly includes, and have some tools available to mods to enforce them. Properly probably includes following the tooltip prompt in when to vote, either way.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:06
  • there is the question of should 1 person moderator or gold badge holder closing or reopening after it's gone through a re-open or close vote be allowed? IMO successful votes should override 1 person's actions and prevent further single-person interventions. and the whole point of that system is close, edit to be better and ask for re-open then if voters agree it should be re-opened but once a single successful vote has gone through it really should prevent single user dictators. the fact is to be able to vote to re-open or close requires a decent amount of rep already.
    – Barkermn01
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 13:18
  • 2
    @Barkermn01 I'm afraid that goes both ways. It takes substantial effort in a subject matter to obtain a gold tag badge, and substantial trust to become an elected moderator. If moderators were not allowed to perform moderation unilaterally, it would kind of break the purpose of having moderators in the first place. For gold badge holders, this would be a different story. That could be expanded separately, although the risk of skewed operations could become higher.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 13:40
  • This is IMO Moderators are voted for by the community to act on the community's behalf, performing actions like this against the community should not be allowed, but gold badges especially they have not been voted for they have just performed well inside that tag and that's good work but does not mean they are "The expert". but it still comes back to democratic rules and democracy should not be prevented on a democratic system. moderators most certainly should moderate Terms violations though.
    – Barkermn01
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 13:56
  • 5
    "voted for by the community to act on the community's behalf" - agreed, but we as "the community" are not always right (and certainly are not that homogenous as the term implies), so moderators being able to make unilateral decisions (and sometimes controversial ones) is good as long as we, collectively, can call the moderator out for their actions should they be found objectionable.Fully agree on the part about gold badgers (but that comes down to shortcomings of Meta being an afterthought)
    – 0Valt
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 16:50
48

So since I'm one of the gold badge holders involved in this, I'll explain my rationale in full.

I take extreme umbrage to this phrase:

Can we please just judge a question by its own merits?

...because this implies that somehow I did not do this.

In context, questions complaining about downvotes or why someone's post was downvoted are about as prevalent here on Meta as hydrogen is everywhere else. A pattern that I've noticed over the last four or five years has been this kind of negative spiral:

  • Someone's upset about downvotes, so they come to Meta to voice their frustration.
  • If their frustration is constructive, their question is closed as a duplicate explaining in general why their question was closed as a dupe. Then the question might get deleted.
  • If their frustration is a rant, then their question is unceremoniously closed and deleted, thus fomenting the frustration all over again.
  • Eventually, someone makes their way over to social media to whinge about how toxic we all are.

Rinse, wash, repeat. We've been down this road a million times.

The thing about this is that I'm not all that bothered by people running to their favorite echo chamber to add yet another stanza to the already thick Book of Grievances: Stack Exchange Edition. I'm more bothered by the fact that Meta seems less interested in actually helping someone out in a more personable setting when it's not as expensive to do so.

Note that on Stack Overflow proper, there are some 40 million questions. It isn't feasible to try to engage with every individual there because those questions are myriad, and technically, a lot of them are bad, or are dupes. It's not difficult to point to an answer about null pointers in Java if they're using Java and their code exhibits the same pattern of how an NPE would manifest. But on Meta, I make the conjecture that duplicates are seldom duplicates unless they literally rehash the same thing.

Yes, I get that your impression of the question is...well...

Don't re-open junk because you think it shouldn't be deleted.

...which is something else I take umbrage to.

If you take nothing else away from this, at least let me convey this: Until Stack Exchange gets its act together and actually explains what downvotes are in a way that is digestible for the community at large, and why people might get them, we're forced to deal with that onslaught of questions here, on Meta, instead.

I have argued, successfully in the past as well, that the reason that there is this frustration is that it's more borne out of the fact that someone got their question downvoted and is frustrated about the experience.

Well, we can't do anything about the experience, so I don't bother exerting energy on that.

What is in my span of control is a way to help talk through their specific question and help them understand what they can do to improve their individual question instead. That may be the limit of what I can do, but I've always felt that I've had more impact in being able to do at least that.

The convenient thing to do in content moderation is to find a way to not answer the question, which is...actually pretty unfortunate to say the least. There are questions asking for feedback or improvement that are buried underneath some discontent or frustration about the process which can either be edited out or reclarified.

To the point of...

Re-opened before it was edited into something coherent.

...it's because there was no time to do that before it fell off of everyone's radar. I said this much in a comment justifying this to you.

I think you're overstating the verbatim lifecycle of salvaged questions. Basically - if a question is deleted, that adds a lot more mental burden to bother with trying to bring this question back from the grave. The best chance a question has to survive is if it's salvaged while it's still undeleted, because people will still be around long enough to evaluate the revision and agree/disagree with it then. By the time it gets into the review queues, it's very often too late, especially for posts on Meta.

To further add to the mess, there is no review queue for deleted questions, and so a moderator would have to get involved to undelete the question. I would imagine that they'd be hesitant to do so in the face of the (unfortunately one-dimensional) signal that they'd look at with respect to the question: it was heavily downvoted.

To my last point, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, ironically enough...

Dragged onto TWITTER of all places (I'm not gonna link this), a place well known for understanding how SO works and forming coherent arguments, instead of going all mob mentality on an issue. /s

So because this was someone familiar with Meta, and someone who has had a history of doing this (which I think is fine tbh), the circumstances change a bit. But the pattern still applies.

The OP originally brought this question to Meta a while back (thanks to Martijn for that link) and it was nuked from orbit.

They came back with something similar. Y'all tried to nuke it from orbit again.

For the record: I would have absolutely no problems closing the new question as a duplicate of the old question, but I would also resist deletion. In this context, the old question really was a rehash, whereas any other existing "here's why we downvote" copypasta doesn't taste as good.

I definitely did not remember the old question, but the pattern is all too familiar. Someone tried to come to Meta to talk about this. They got rejected by Meta. A discussion about why this happened or why this was okay is being actively rejected on Meta. So...where else does one get to turn to talk about this? What, did you think they'd just be...okay with being unable to discuss their frustration about the site?

enter image description here

My philosophy on this is pretty simple. It does take a bit more time and energy to help someone understand why Stack Overflow works the way it does. This is why Meta exists. If Meta doesn't want to help others explain the situation, then we create these exciting opportunities where people get to fuss about it on Twitter.

You don't want that? We've gotta facilitate that here. Also too, Stack Exchange Inc. needs to get its act together and provide us with explanations about these downvotes already. We've been operating unsupported for far too long.


As an additional thought, as I've been thinking about this a bit after reading some of the comments: maybe it's better to just answer the question as opposed to try to facilitate a conversation in comments. That's another pattern I've seen but I've been flayed alive for suggesting that limiting comments was a good thing. But ironically enough, it proves out the point that there's more than enough friction in the comment thread to start a proper bonfire. Maybe that's the part that needs to cool off. Disagree with the question all you like; that's what downvotes are for. Getting into a shouting match with an OP because they don't agree with your viewpoints? Not nearly as constructive as a structured yet firm answer explaining the viewpoints of Stack Overflow as you understand them, or your opinion on why their suggestion is flawed or full of misunderstandings.

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    In regards to twitter: this question was dumped on twitter before the first answer here was posted. Same for the "delete-happy meta" question. It was not in response to being rejected on meta. Now I'm all for helping people understand how SE works, but it's painfully obvious the OP of that question is not interested in the explanations provided. I didn't mean to personally accuse you of the different "misbehaviours" (aside from my opinion that it'd have been better not applying mjolnir here)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:02
  • 9
    @GeorgeStocker: I'm not giving twitter any credit in regards to traffic or popularity. I just think it's a horrible platform, and it's caused a lot of problems for SO, and Meta in the past. Posting meta discussions to that "echo box" is just poor etiquette. Posts get taken out of context, and it wouldn't be the first time if the Twitter army came barging in.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:12
  • 7
    @Cerbrus Sunshine is the best disinfectant, as they say. (Also, if the argument is "People will be upset at what we do if someone shares that with them" then you're not making the point you think you're making). Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:14
  • 5
    For some reason I'm not seeing that...it feels like this is still aimed at somehow passing some kind of decisive moderation on the content to make it simply go away. I think that the other Meta question about why this was deleted was plenty to discuss this in, but we've got another post. I suppose I should've asked this from the beginning, but what's your goal @Cerbrus? Do you want to delete the original question that started this mess, do you want to understand the rationale of someone like George or myself why we'd not want it deleted, or do you want something else?
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:26
  • 13
    I want people to stop re-opening junk because it's mentioned on meta. The only reason that question is still alive is because someone decided there has to be a discussion where clearly the OP isn't interested in what Meta has to say. What remains is a trainwreck of a question, even after all the edits, it's no more than a bunch of baseless rambling. It's a bad question. This is that Meta-effect that has to be stopped.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:30
  • 4
    @Cerbrus: I don't know how you qualify a question like this as junk. Maybe we should start there.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:34
  • 7
    Yet another “downvotes bad” rant with an OP that doesn’t wanna know how downvotes work... Dime a dozen.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:52
  • 4
    So...you're not seeing that as an opportunity to engage with the OP to correct them on their thinking @Cerbrus?
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:52
  • 5
    It was very clear very quickly that that wasnmt gonna mean squat. I have yet to see an question like that turn out to have an OP that was actually interested in discussing it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:57
  • 12
    We’re days into this and the OP in question still doesn’t appear to be interested in discussion. How long do we need to give this user the benefit of the doubt?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 19:59
  • 5
    "If their frustration is constructive" - I would have stopped there really. It was not. Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 0:17
  • 8
    You answered their question then. You answered their question now. Δ = 0. Nothing has changed. Start recognizing the rants (not you, just in general),. Start recognizing those that can't be helped. I can appreciate you care and I believe that the site wouldn't be as successful as it is without your contributions, @Makoto. Your opinions (about that powers that be) have merit and deserve discussion and I will amplify them wherever I can, but let's please stop indulging these fruitless posts. Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 5:26
  • 10
    I can understand how you would take the wording of this question personally. I get how reasonable people differ, esp about deletion. But the OP in the question we are discussing used words like "malicious", "cowardly", and "toxic". Language that is mostly still there, now, after all of this. Somebody rolled in to our community and said "your values and norms suck and so do you". Why do we have to host that assertion? We're not talking about sexism, sarcasm, or other things actually toxic, we're talking about downvotes. If that qualifies as toxic now, I will wear the label with pride. Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 14:39
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    Second, @SotiriosDelimanolis - by simply deleting the question we don't like interacting with (e.g. the second question), we're losing a whole ton of valuable information and signal that we could use etiher as a future dupe target, or as evidence to showcase how and where the education of users of Stack Overflow needs to be improved.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 16:25
  • 4
    @GeorgeStocker "Also, if the argument is, 'People will be upset at what we do if someone shares that with them,' then you're not making the point you think you're making." That isn't the argument. The argument is that people are denigrating something they don't understand and have no interest in understanding, and they're attacking us on the basis of something that's not true. In other words, Twitter is amplifying a prejudice. It's the internet equivalent of a public lynching (and no, I do not make that comparison lightly): no trial, no defense, just hatred and assumed guilt.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 10:09
17

Can we please stop making martyrs out of junk?

Apparently not.

I honestly don't think this is ever going away, and for the same reason that the question in the question being questioned (i.e. should downvotes go away) is never going to go away: it's a political question. Subjects only make it on to the political spectrum if there is a fundamental irreconcilable difference of opinion about them.

There's a figure-ground inversion at play here:

  1. In one view of the world, Stack Overflow is an open platform. Everyone, and their content has a right to be here, and that right should only be revoked after they prove beyond any possible doubt that they/it should be removed. Many (but not all) who hold this view seem to also believe that any denigration of content is a denigration of the individual, and an abrogation of their right to access this platform. Any impact on quality is noise not signal; process cost of growth and inclusion.
  2. In the other view, Stack Overflow has a very specific mission. Users are granted probationary acceptance at first, and must earn their way by posting quality (as judged by the community) content to ensure that mission is carried out. Instead of having to prove you don't belong to get kicked out, you have to prove that you do belong to stay. In this worldview content is judged on its merits alone, and any implication on the poster is simply melodrama that has no place in Serious Business TM. Any impact on exclusivity is noise not signal; process cost of maintaining the qualities that made this platform desirable in the first place.

Obviously these positions contain a bit of caricature for the purpose of setting up contrast, but I really think this division is at the heart of a lot of these debates. Because people looking for the first kind of platform are going to have an allergic reaction to the second, and vice-versa. What is noise in the first view becomes signal in the second, and likewise in reverse.

You can say that adopting the first view will cause this site to turn into an ongoing dumpster fire of un-curated junk, and I will mostly agree.

You can say that adopting the second view means that only people with apparently higher-than-average psychological fortitude can participate, and that this is exclusionary, and I will mostly agree.

It's a tradeoff, and which ever side we end up on some people will be unhappy, and they will complain, and they will try to nudge the ship of state in the direction of their preferences, much like IRL politics.

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  • 1
    This is probably the best answer, and summation of the real problem, to be found on meta. As user 4 years into my probation (610rep at this writing), I'm of the 2nd view and would really like to see corp make moves to help in a) affirming that view in current times (as opposed to the ancient writings of the founders), and b) providing guidance or tools in explaining that to those currently holding the 1st view.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Mar 3, 2021 at 2:34
  • There is a common fallacy that could apply here, namely seeing two peaks when there is only a single spectrum. I would like to see more evidence that people are really divided (in which case maybe StackOverflow should be simply split in two versions: WikiStackpedia and OpenStack) and not just have a single broad spectrum with a peak somewhere in the middle between the two extrema, in which case a compromise would be best. Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 12:18
  • @Trilarion I think IRL politics is also more of a spectrum than what one would think from e.g. consuming the news media. But when it comes time to decide policy, that spectrum gets condensed into a binary choice (e.g. Trump or Biden). It seems that a lot of the people more towards the second end of the spectrum would like to enforce norms more stringently. As for the other end, the charitable view is that they want more inclusivity, the uncharitable view is that they want to turn SO into yet another battlefront in the omnipresent culture wars. SO as it exists today is the compromise: Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 13:40
  • 3
    ...[cont] with the CoC we made a big (and necessary!) push to combat actually toxic behavior like sarcastic comments (e.g. RTFM, LMGTFY), assuming people with neutral handles are men, and misgendering people. We've rolled out initiatives to help new users. We've tweaked the wizards, the UI, etc. At this point, I don't know what to make of what's left: these people can't handle downvotes? How do the handle code reviews/performance reviews/adult relationships? Do they not have jobs? Do they still live with their parents? What's the deal here? Am I just missing something? I really want to know! Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 13:46
  • @JaredSmith For 13 years we kind of optimized within the local optima we are in, never really making any big steps away from the initial state (and the success proves it was good). We could argue that this is simply the best, but we only have done local optimization so far. We would need controlled experiments with vastly different conditions to be more sure about being at the global optimum. Basically invent yourself new every day. Ask yourself how you would do it if you would have to start again. You really never felt the sting of a downvote? Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 18:08
  • Last point first: on SO no not really. Over on politics.SE, lots. The difference is, to me, instructive: political beliefs are personal (obvs) but I can't even begin to get into a mindset where my question about file handles being closed as a dupe causes me to go on an anti-SO crusade on Twitter. Technical feedback is just different. I'm frankly having a very hard time here not just rounding this off to some sort of stereotypical youngster coddled special snowflake participation trophy ism. Because I can only imagine taking it that hard is if it's the first negative feedback I'd ever had. Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 19:05
  • 2
    @Trilarion [cont'd] As for your point about local vs global optima, maybe? Hard to see out of the valley you're in. But we have some natural experiments in the form of Quora, Wikipedia, and forums. Quora has the dial turned too low (opinions are like ***holes, everybody has one), Wikipedia has it turned too high (must be this tall in order to contribute), and forums are as Robert Harvey put it a "vast wasteland of suck". I'm not sure we can do more than incrementally better than we are? But I'm willing to try some more rigorous experiments. Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 19:17
  • I fully agree there. I just wanted to make the point about the difference between people believing this is the best possible way (because nobody else is obviously better) and being sure that it will also stay like this because we tried everything possible and nothing else was better. It's kind of the effect that people with a good tool might stop searching for a better one. Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 20:41
  • 2
    And I don't mean more "I hate downvotes" questions like the one mentioned here. I mean that we ourselves should question more our own assumptions. We should continue to develop a theory of downvotes and everything and should think about alternatives and about ways to prove the value of downvotes in practice. Maybe along that way we will find some surprises. Don't stop experimenting. Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 20:50
  • 2
    'only people with apparently higher-than-average psychological fortitude can participate'....in software development. That I can agree with. I don't wish it, I don't try to enforce it. It just is, as anyone who has sat in front of a terminal on Sunday moring, reviewing yet again logs and debuggers, trying to understand a system bug that must be fixed by Monday to demonstate a $70m milestone, will understand:( Commented Mar 25, 2021 at 3:22
  • 2
    @MartinJames yes. I am constantly surprised that other people are surprised when they find out that programming is hard. Like, what did you think they pay us for? And that too has implications for SO: is it desirable to act as a weeder to filter out people who won't be able to cut it? Because if you can't handle a downvote on an internet forum, you don't have much chance of debugging that mission-critical thing when millions are on the line. IDK, when we say we're for "professional and hobbyist programmers", where do we draw the line with "hobbyist"? Commented Mar 25, 2021 at 11:36
  • 2
    @JaredSmith Wasn’t it “enthusiast” instead of “hobbyist”? For me, “enthusiast” means that you’re willing to dig into documentation, specifications, tutorials, etc. Commented Mar 25, 2021 at 15:10
  • @SebastianSimon you're probably right, and I totally agree Commented Mar 25, 2021 at 15:11
16

I've probably followed all two and half meta threads, 2 twitter threads and...

Maybe we're all taking this too seriously.

There's no way we're really going to get traction for an actual core mechanic being changed without some absolutely rock solid, inspiring arguments. If we didn't give it as much attention as we did, it would have sunk into obscurity, maybe getting roombaed as no one even bothered to answer it.

Yet here we are, arguing over a post no one realistically feels will cause meaningful change, arguing for its own sake, caught in an ant mill of drama.

Clearly the deletions were ineffective, as were the closevotes. But the post is also at a very high negative number of posts, since people obviously broadly disagree

At this point it would take a particularly foolish brave mod to pick a side, and possibly lock it.

While meta is a discussion space, lets not lose track of the fact that discussions for their own sake may not be the best thing. We need discussions that actually critically and constructively bring up potential weaknesses and improvements in this system.

I don't feel the original post was (though I eventually felt I needed to address it). And if the issue was with the excessively quick deletion, would letting it sit a while been better?)

We're currently at 2 posts too many on the issue though

11
  • 1
    In my defence, I have a night shift and am waiting for other people to reboot servers :D Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:29
  • 3
    I don't think the post in question is really the essence of all this. From where I'm at it looks like it's about censoring what can be discussed.
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:42
  • 6
    It is the essense of everything going on around this question IMO Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:02
  • The interesting question would maybe why we all took the question so seriously? Somehow it seems to invoke strong emotional reactions, either way. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:45
  • 2
    Exactly. Deescalating at any point likely would have resulted in a quiet death Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 18:51
  • 4
    There's no way we're really going to get traction for an actual core mechanic being changed - I think everyone discussing closure/deletion agrees on that, and that the only reason to leave it non-deleted is so future readers can see the massive amount of downvotes, i.e. community consensus that it's not a good idea. I don't have a strong opinion about closed / open. This answer seems to assume that deleting totally non-viable proposals made for unclear reasons is definitely what we should do. I don't think that's obvious; meta is different from the main site. Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 2:36
  • Note for the foolish moderator: if you delete it, nobody can undelete it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 12:04
  • 1
    Ah, but then someone will post on meta to why its deleted. Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 12:08
  • 1
    Sometimes the only way to stop dumpster fire spreading is to let it freely burn to the ground. For every action there will be another overreaction and you cannot break the cycle.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 19:57
  • 1
    Well or to deprive it of fuel. Letting it burn can be suboptimal too. Alas I suspect shog might have a better firebreak analogy Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 20:03
  • 5
    @Scratte I really don't think this is about censorship. I haven't seen anyone argue that changes to downvoting can't be discussed. Rather, the main problems I've seen cited are the inherently hostile attitude of the user posting that question and the fact it really doesn't bring anything to the table that hasn't already been hashed so much that it's a purée. We all know the voting system has shortcomings, but the approach this question took is just more of the tired old, "You're bad and should feel bad," the company has been spewing at us for 2 years now.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 9:14
13

Re-opened before it was edited into something coherent.

This isn't some troll post. Edition 1 was perfectly coherent and it is a sincere question. Everyone ought to be welcome to ask a question on meta without having been around for 10 years and without spending unrealistic amounts of their time searching for duplicates before posting.

Re-opened by gold badge holders while it's very clearly a controversial situation that no single users should force their will on... Twice.

Yes, well these kind of posts should generally be "hands-off" by everyone until they settle. If moderation is necessary, it is best left to diamond mods. Jean-François Fabre♦ tried to fix it apparently, I'm really not sure why his lock was overruled.

I have questioned the legitimacy of gold badgers on meta several times before (and then I'm one such beast myself too). Just because I have a gold badge in "Discussion" it doesn't make me some "Master of Discussion" who can decide what topics that are to be discussed. This is abused quite often.

If anything, having such a gold badge should make you much more careful when closing things as dupes on meta.

Re-opened despite the fact the OP clearly isn't interested in a coherent discussion.

I'm not sure that this is all that clear. Controversial or not, we should allow things like this to be discussed. Even if not the most constructive post out there, it may be good to just look at things we take for granted from a different point of view now and then.

Sure, it might have been discussed before and there's no point in beating the dead horse, but if so use a recent duplicate as link and only if the linked question is actually of better quality than the current one.

Re-opened despite there being duplicates that clearly explain why downvotes are necessary.

Closing the post as dupe to some old one from 2014 is highly questionable. SO is a living beast where rules and culture changes over the years. We can't go make some calls "no you aren't allowed to discuss this because we already discussed it back in 2014". That's neither democratic nor relevant.

Dragged onto TWITTER of all places (I'm not gonna link this), a place well known for understanding how SO works and forming coherent arguments, instead of going all mob mentality on an issue. /s

Those who read Twitter get what's coming to them. I couldn't care less.


So to summarize, you are basically asking why people have different subjective opinions about moderation than your own subjective opinions. While you are out there yourself tossing around subjective delete votes left and right.

Even closing discussion as "opinion-based", seriously? I didn't even know that close reason existed on meta. Obviously it should not be abused here since it was obviously only intended for the main programming Q&A.

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  • 3
    (Small footnote: I didn't vote for "opinion based" there, but for "not open to discussion", I believe the majority close reason shows there. I agree that "opinion based on meta is, well, silly)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 15:50
  • 1
    This answer hits all the right notes.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 16:46
  • The opening post here has been edited; "coherent" has been replaced with "constructive" for clarity. I think your first point is based on a bit of misunderstanding. (Mind you, I'm not blaming you for it. The original choice of word didn't quite communicate what I think Cerbrus intended.) You may want to update.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 9:34
  • 1
    @jpmc26 The correct way to deal with question edits that render answers incorrect or obsolete is question rollback.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 9:43
  • 1
    @Lundin No, clarification is valid. The question's intent has not been changed (especially at a fundamental level), just made more manifest. If you don't want to edit, you don't have to. I was just letting you know in case you have some different thoughts as a result.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 9:49
  • "If anything, having such a gold badge should make you much more careful when closing things as dupes on meta." I also thought about it, and while it's true I think it should not mean that one cannot use the powers at all. For example, for many years I wrote lots of contributions that were well received and that now means that whenever there is something controversial I probably shouldn't vote in order not to get criticized by someone. That would be basically less than the deal before. I used it, I got immediately asked for an explanation, I decided to give it. I think that's ok. Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 12:33
  • 1
    @Trilarion Or use the trick: Remove the tag, put your 1 of 3 duplicate vote on it, re-insert the tag.
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 13:15
  • 2
    @Scratte Another common approach is to wait until your vote would be the last one, then cast it. That way you're only using your elevated vote as a single one. Mods use this strategy, too.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 8:18
  • @Trilarion It's a very different closing some support FAQ as dupe and closing a discussion though. For a discussion to be a valid duplicate, it must have been discussed fairly recently - basically the person wishing to discuss something must be able to go the thread you point them to and pick up the discussion there. If it's some cold case from 2014, well... there's no way to meaningfully bump that thread alive again. Also, diamond mods, unlike us gold badgers, were community-elected to handle exactly these kind of situations, so we should let them deal with it for that reason alone.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 8:39
  • 1
    @Lundin "For a discussion to be a valid duplicate, it must have been discussed fairly recently - basically the person wishing to discuss something must be able to go the thread you point them to and pick up the discussion there." Stack Overflow as a platform rejects that premise, though. We intentionally do not support customizing a discussion of a problem for a particular user. We are designed to curate the meat and bones so that users can learn the material and figure out for themselves how to apply the skin to their particulars. That's as true for Meta as it is for the main site.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 8:59
  • @jpmc26 The difference between the main site and meta is that the main site is 100% about existing things. Meta can have discussions about things that do not yet exist, of features we'd like to see or rules we'd like to change. There's nowhere on meta you can go to learn and study things that do not yet exist or have never been tried. In this specific case, there's no case study you can go and check what would happen if we remove down-votes, because it has not been done on any of these Q&A sites.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 9:05
  • 2
    @Lundin I fail to see how that's relevant because this post didn't suggest performing an experiment. It just insisted that downvoting is immoral and useless and should be removed with extreme prejudice, a premise the designers of the platform literally and explicitly rejected to define the foundations. The notions that downvoting is immoral or useless have been addressed ad nauseam. And the user who wrote it went around denigrating users, insisting that downvoting consistently comes from forms of malice. There was nothing constructive or new there.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 9:13
  • @Lundin I feel it's important to expand on the difference. A post in which someone suggests an experiment is one that fundamentally acknowledges that the effect may not be as they intend; in other words, they're open to the possibility they may be wrong. Such a post would also have to acknowledge the history of the site and the fundamental role downvoting is intended to play because it would need that information to refine the hypothesis and make suggestions about the construction of the experiment. And it would likely take care to acknowledge strongly held opinions to garner more support.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 9:24
  • @jpmc26 Actually, it has to my knowledge never really been properly addressed by someone thinking outside the box. The whole idea with SO is to use public shaming as a moderator tool, which in turn has many flaws. Most notably, people respond very poorly when criticized in public. Especially when down-votes, close votes and comments just keep piling up, beating the poster over and over. You may not think it is done with malice, but the natural human reaction is to respond as if it was, to get defensive. It's hard to argue against it being a system designed to create as much drama as possible.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 9:29
  • 1
    @Lundin Okay, that's a fair argument that at least warrants a response. And if this question had been titled, "Does SO's downvote system create drama? Is it worth keeping if so?" we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd expect some insightful answers arguing both sides of that discussion. The question that got closed/deleted wasn't anything like that. The user literally associated downvoting with racism.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 9:35
6

There's this joke on the /r/jokes subreddit (slightly edited for readability):

A new user gets on to r/jokes and sees the most upvoted joke just says "28". The second most upvoted joke says "3915". The third most upvoted joke says "756". He can't see why they're getting so many upvotes, so he comments "These aren't jokes, they're numbers!".

The admin replies "You must be new here. r/jokes has been around for so long, we've seen every joke, so we just refer to them by numbers now".

The new user wants to get a few upvotes so he creates a post saying "504,323".

When he checks his account the next day his joke is the top post on reddit and the most upvoted r/jokes thread of the last 10 years. He messages the admin "What happened?"

The admin replies "Nobody had heard that one before".

I've addressed this issue four years ago in Can we talk about the reviewing culture here on Meta?. My observation was:

it appears to me that an small crowd of 5-10 relatively low-rep (5K-20K) people are active in the review queues on Meta, and they are down-, close- and delete-voting everything that they don't like, while they (again, this is how it appears to me) hardly ever participate posting actual answers on Main.

It's like the reviewers still go "Oh no, not question 321 again", and go hunt for a nine year old question they remember because they were around when that got asked, downvote, dupe-vote, close-vote and wait for the next question to come in on Meta that they can review.

I still agree with Makoto's answer there:

I believe that it's fair game to downvote a question here on Meta, especially if it's not an ideal approach to a problem, is ill-researched, or is just plain ranty, but I don't really like deletion of questions here unless it's absolutely necessary. Save for users mistaking* the site for Stack Overflow, there are very few questions which actually need to be deleted.

So please, stop delete-voting. You're deleting new hallmark posts, you're making Meta a nasty place, and you're stopping people who aren't on Meta for 24/7 to see what other users are trying to start discussions about.

If people would stop deleting that much, we wouldn't have the occasional "Can we please stop deleting?" post, and therefore no "martyr" posts on which the Meta effect is applied, as is tradition.

7
  • 3
    "You're deleting new hallmark posts" I would agree, if that new post were constructive. Trash in, trash out. That said, (to me) this reads like an answer to "should we delete?", not as an answer to "stop making martyrs"...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 3, 2021 at 7:55
  • 4
    My point is: if we don't mass-delete, we also won't have recurring "please don't delete"-posts, and therefore no "martyrs". It's like you're asking "Can we not apply the Meta effect to Meta?", which is, of course, impossible.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 3, 2021 at 8:08
  • 1
    But that boils down to whether or not we think deletion is okay or not. Imo, the problem here is that people post meta questions just to make a point, but use a extremely poor example in there, resulting in edit wars on that question. If you want to make a point, fine, but the meta effect it causes should be avoided, somehow... For example, by not linking to the question.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 3, 2021 at 8:11
  • 3
    @CodeCaster "if we don't mass-delete, we also won't have recurring "please don't delete"-posts" if you really want to go down that line of reasoning, then if people don't post poor discussions, then we wouldn't need to delete them. Now, is this really where you want us to go? I don't think so. Can we focus on whether the question was bad or not first and then talk about how it was handled. Because talking about "X way to handle things is bad" while omitting what and why was handled by X is re-framing the narrative.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 3, 2021 at 8:55
  • 1
    I originally wasn't sure how I felt about deleting this particular post. However, as I looked more at the content of it and the attitude of the user who posted it, I agreed with it. This question was doing little more than inspiring animosity on both sides, and it was set up from the beginning in a manner that fostered such an outcome. All the user did was denigrate downvoting and downvoters without even having a working understanding of its history and norms, and then the question's supporters essentially claimed victimhood for being such down over such an approach.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 9:40
  • 1
    I have no doubt that a more courteous, open minded suggestion with more acknowledgement of downvoting's purpose and uses would have been vastly better received, even if it was still heavily downvoted for disagreement. As I told the author in a comment: welcoming and kindness cannot be a one-way street.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 9:42
  • 2
    ^ The last paragraph of this answer an the first 4 comments here were screengrabbed and dumped on Twitter... I do not appreciate being talked about in a place I'm not going to contribute. It's rude, and it's attacking us in a place we can't defend ourselves.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 10:27
-5

This question is asking the wrong question (Sorry, in order to answer your question I have to reject the premise, that the problem here is people fighting over this question).

The natural conclusion of "Why are we fighting over junk" is "Just let it be", that is, if we didn't want to have a fight is that it should have just stayed closed and deleted.

So yea, I can't even accept the premise as valid -- that as soon as 5 people vote to close and 3 people vote to delete that that's that.

That aside; one reason this happens is that some mainsite features should be used sparingly if at all on Meta. This post exposes problems with two of them : closing (particularly as a 'duplicate' or closing as 'opinion-based') are problematic cudgels wielded to shut down conversation people with the reputation to close and delete do not like.

Closing and deleting conversations that fall into this are especially problematic for the community as a whole.

I explained why in my question but I didn't go into the nitty-gritty of why the software should not be used in this fashion.

First off, using the main-site software for Meta started out as an experiment: enter image description here (image in case we lose the blog again), and here's the text of that blog post:

We’re a little unsure how well the current SO engine will map to discussion-y topics. Remember, we designed explicitly around Questions and Answers — specifically, questions around a theme that can be (mostly) answered! Launching our own internal meta-discussion site is one way of finding out. (emphasis mine)

in case that's not clear enough, the blog post ends with the YOLO of the day:

We’ve made a few of the easier changes already that were based on (groan) meta-data. Others will be tougher. We won’t know until we try, so … C’mon get meta!

… and see what happens.

In case it's not abundantly clear; this was an experiment. No one knew how the software would work. And in the beginning it wasn't soo bad. Now, 13 years later, we see its flaws.

One of those flaws is the fact that duplicate closing exists on meta. If you can't discuss a policy more than once, why even have a meta site?. You don't need one. You can throw it on a blog post, turn off comments, and call it a day.

The second flaw is closing questions as 'opinion-based' on meta. Where else would we put opinions, if not in a place where we should be discussing and enacting change?

Now deleting is even more problematic; especially when it's done so quickly. No question short of actual spam, gibberish or political hate speech should be deleted that quickly on a meta site. It may be a bad question; and we may hate it, but that doesn't make it hate speech.

Part of the problem with deleting it is if it's truly a duplicate than how do we point someone to a recent conversation on the topic? The listed duplicate was seven years old, and wasn't even really a duplicate. Wherever the threshold for "Can we discuss this again?" is, it needs to be on a better time-scale than once every 8 years, especially for a meta site; where the community's mindset shifts yearly, if not more often than that.

So, to answer your question with a question: The discussion shouldn't be on "Why are we fighting over junk?" It should be on, "Why do we not want to let people have discussions that are fundamental to the continued health of the site when we disagree with the premises of those questions?"

Or

"Why are we so hostile to the concept that people will discuss change?"

I think both of those would yield far more interesting answers that delve into the psychology of people who spend their time on meta, and would give us far more to work with when discussing how to change meta features to better reflect the purpose of meta as a way to discuss and enact change.

35
  • 13
    You're not answering my question about judging a question by its own merit. You're answering your own question about deletion here...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:44
  • 7
    @Cerbrus I answered it in the first sentence. I reject the premise of your question. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:45
  • 11
    Then the answer should've ended there instead of going on a irrelevant tangent about deletion
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:46
  • 22
    "Why are we so hostile to the concept that people will discuss change?" - We're not, we're simply hostile to users that don't grasp the basics of how the site works but rant on meta that they want them changed. I also reject your premise that the 1001st post complaining about downvotes is somehow "fundamental to the continued health of the site". I might even reject your premise that the question which triggered this is anywhere close to a discussion, given that OP does not seem to have learned anything or contributed much except "downvotes bad" for the last two days.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:52
  • 8
    @l4mpi with 1001 posts on this topic; perhaps one from this year could have been used as a duplicate as opposed to one from 7 years ago? Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:54
  • 9
    No, you're abusing my question for your own agenda, going as far as dumping it on twitter, repeating the same old tired "we must be able to discuss things!" argument. My question is about the meta effect, the behavior of users.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:57
  • 25
    @GeorgeStocker you keep repeating that, but I don't get it. If your problem was a bad dupe target, ok, select a better one, or even create a canonical if you think none are satisfactory. If your problem was the age of the dupe target - the arguments from 7 years ago (even 11 years ago) are still valid, so I reject your premise that age is a problem.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:57
  • 7
    @l4mpi the arguments were valid to you; but not necessarily to the larger community, as evidenced by how many people are speaking up in favor of keeping it. The software and the community are not static; and answers on a meta site should not be treated as such. All it does is create an insular community that can't adapt; which is the chief cause of death for a community. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:59
  • 9
    If the "answer" is not about the question, perhaps the "proper" question should be asked by you directly, and let that discussion carry it's own thread.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:00
  • 11
    "I cannot answer your question, so I'll ask and answer my own, using yours as a vehicle." Somehow that doesn't seem like the proper way to have a discussion, in any context.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:06
  • 10
    @GeorgeStocker I would be inclined to agree with you more if you didn't choose a pathologically bad example of a question/topic as your hill to die on. Discussing downvotes ad nauseum (or rather, explaining to ignorant users why downvotes are neccessary, and should not require you to comment) is NOT integral to the site, and even auto-deleting all questions that contained the word "downvotes" would not even come close to having as much influence on the health of the community as all the misguided things SE did over the last two years.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:07
  • 21
    Also, I find it very very ironic that the same person that didn'd see any problem with deleting troves of comments on meta now fears for the health of the site if we don't let users rant about downvotes every day...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:12
  • 8
    @GeorgeStocker If you think people are too close/delete happy on Meta, that's a fine thing to raise awareness about. However, the question you chose was quite possibly the worst option available of all currently deleted posts. It was an nth duplicate, uninformed, and a rant. If that kind content isn't what close and delete votes are for, even on Meta, then I don't even know why the features exist on Meta in the first place (and no this is not an invitation for you to say "they shouldn't!"). The focus of this seems to be about the question you chose as your example, not your cause in general.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:49
  • 11
    And back to the beginning of the circle: You reject the premise of my question and go off on a irrelevant tangent. This is your que to reply saying meta software needs to change.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:01
  • 16
    @GeorgeStocker No it doesn't. And if you see such abuse of good questions getting closed/deleted, flag that for a moderator to handle... because that's arguably abuse. But people voting to close and delete nth duplicate rants is not abuse, even if it's on Meta. For what it's worth, I support the idea of occasionally re-testing our theories/policies in a thoughtful manner as time goes on. The post in question... wasn't that.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 19:47

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