-42

I had thought about putting together a Medium blog for a response on what the actual Problem™ here on Stack Overflow was, and why there was this air of hostility, but every time I sat down to make more progress on it, I kept being reminded of comments.

Yes, comments. That double-edged sword which serves the valuable purpose of allowing us to ask questions of the OP.

Except...it's not always used for that purpose. You can run into chains like this one for example explaining why this question shouldn't be answered, or you can get high-rep users making snide remarks with a large deal of impunity.

Then there's also the matter of someone actually answering a question in comments, which completely flies in the face of the whole point of a Q&A site. It's actually embarrasingly common to see someone post a solution in the body of comments, removed from any substantial usefulness and away from anyone looking to actually search on those answers.

There have been a few suggestions out there already which have indicated something similar:

In my mind, neither are sufficient enough to address the main symptom of the Problem™:

Comments are given far more clout than they should be.

To that end, here's what I propose.

  • You get one comment per question and answer, or up to three in a comment chain with the OP. Questions and answers would count separate.
  • You get up to fifteen comments per day. Deleted comments are exempt from this limit.
  • If a comment of yours is flagged as something other than "Obsolete" and the flag is marked as "helpful", you lose three comments overall until you can no longer comment, which will persist for three months.
  • No such limit would exist on Meta sites (including Meta Stack Exchange).
  • In the case of more clarification being absolutely necessary on the part of the OP, a time-limited chat room (say about an hour) could exist for the purposes of getting details out of the OP and help them improve their question.

This has the immediate pluses of keeping comments narrow and focused for a specific reason, while allowing those who actually want to commentate for a purpose, and effectively punish the users who abuse this privilege in a more concise and simple way.

The immediate drawback is that we wouldn't be able to commentate nearly as much as we do today.

Which, given the backlash we've seen over the last two weeks...might be for the better.

Thoughts? Comments? Want a better example of snide remarks?

50
  • 1
    Suggestion - auto generated comments from duplicate votes/flags and review queues should be exempt from the counts. That leaves a possible workaround to the limitations, so you'd probably need to include some method to make the comment count if you edit it Commented May 8, 2018 at 15:58
  • 25
    Fifteen comments per day is absolutely crazy. Yes comments transport a lot of snarkiness but they're also the only way to communicate and help out new users. So is taking away three comments from your allowance if you happen to not hit the perfectly right tone with someone super-sensitive once.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 15:59
  • 1
    @psubsee2003: Flagged and marked as helpful. I'll revise.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:00
  • 4
    @Pekka웃: Mentoring isn't feasible, tenable, scalable or acceptable through comments alone. This is not a new philosophy. If the question is answerable, it should be answered. If it can be improved, it should be peer edited. It there's a problem or a question, a comment should be leveraged to ask for clarification.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:03
  • 8
    Concentrating everything that might have to be conveyed in a single comment, knowing that you can't comment again. What could go wrong? This has the exact opposite effect of course, no room for subtleties. Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:06
  • 4
    It there's a problem or a question, a comment should be leveraged to ask for clarification yes - or, if the user is very new and unaware of SO's arcane rules and their question needs a fundamental remake, a comment can go a long way introducing them to the place and suggesting how to make the question a better fit for the site. Looking at what people are complaining about, that's what we need more of. Not less.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:06
  • 1
    @Makoto So why should we not be having this same "repartee" about, say, C++? OK, OK, I know that SO is not a discussion site, but sometimes it can take a lot of Q & A in comments to find out what the OP, and others, are actually talking about.
    – user2100815
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:07
  • 1
    I think this makes sense, but at the same time I would like to see easier facilities to move to chat. Because with a three comments limit, the "mentoring" or "deep helping" aspect is lost. Now the argument can be done that comments aren't intended for that. But whether we like it or not, these discussions do happen and I personally think there is value in them.
    – Patrice
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:12
  • 14
    'Addressing the highest friction point of being welcoming'... would that not be appallingly bad questions? Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:12
  • 1
    @psubsee2003: You have somewhere between 5 and 50 votes total. You don't really need to custom comment every question you close, do you?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:13
  • 8
    We can't make people read, but we can keep our most vociferous members from sounding like jerks. I don't see how; you still have 15 opportunities to post curt comments. In the meantime, people with helpful comments have to keep notes so they don't hit their daily limit, and if one new user doesn't find the advice posted gentle enough they lose three of them.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:18
  • 3
    So the moderation team would decide, as they do today. the very essence of the entire hostility problem is that it's often a grey area, especially when helpful information is transmitted at the same time. If it were simply a question of changing flagging standards and rate limiting a clearly defined group of users posting rude comments, they might have done this long ago. The fundamental problem is you can't police tone and basic interactions between people - and attempts to do it tend to end in some form of dystopian awfulness. Delegating to the moderators doesn't solve this problem.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:25
  • 2
    @Pekka웃: I'd argue that this is more about finding a place for comments. They're the red-headed stepchild of the site in all manners of the word. They can't be indexed, searched, or community moderated. Yet they are so prominent they actually get some kind of special treatment, even subconsciously. I'm really trying to drive the conversation of, "well let's actually find a narrow scope for comments instead of letting them run amok."
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:27
  • 2
    Heh, I know you didn't copy my 5-year-old request, but it's funny how similar they are (they even share a -14 score right now).
    – yannis
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 17:20
  • 8
    The flagging rule proposed here is nuts. The majority of my flags are on obsolete comments - that is, typically, comments that have been addressed by the poster and therefore are no longer needed. In order to become obsolete, they had to actually have merit and express themselves in such a way as to cause the poster being addressed to act on them. As such, flagged comments disproportionately contain some of the most useful and inoffensive comments on the site. And that's the set you want to get people completely comment banned after 5 flags?!
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 22:07

4 Answers 4

30

Your basic premise here is inherently wrong. You open by assuming that people that think the site is "unwelcoming" feel that way predominately because of comments, and yet the vast majority of complaints are merely about downvotes and close votes (and at a distant third, polite and appropriate comments explaining why the post is getting downvotes and close votes and what it needs to do better). Actual instances of inappropriate comments are very rare, and cleaned up so quickly that complaints about them are far less common than for downvotes, close votes, or appropriate comments.

This change wouldn't actually stop those rare instances of actually inappropriate comments much. Comments that are actually rude or insulting are reliably flagged and cleaned up quite quickly, and users posting enough of them that your rate limits would stop them (i.e. posting 4-5 a day) would be getting themselves suspended rather quickly even without this system in place.

This means that your system isn't actually stopping people from posting comments that are actually rude (because the existing systems are already just as effective as your changes), it's just stopping people from posting useful comments (many of whom post far more than the limits you've proposed would allow for).

11
  • 1
    I disagree. I don't see the system "as effective" as any of my suggestions. I don't believe that this would impact truly useful or helpful comments.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:22
  • 3
    Also I'd argue that comments are the most visible thing on the site in terms of an "interaction" with the community. You can downvote something and disappear into the wind. You leave a comment, and you can make Hacker News or Twitter and be lambasted as a "jerk" (when the intent might not have been that specifically).
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:25
  • 8
    @Makoto I've seen lots of rants of people complaining about how they hate SO. I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't complain about downvotes, close votes, or comments of people telling them how to improve their question. I've seen very few (as in single digit numbers here) complaining about comments that were actually offensive and were removed accordingly.
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:33
  • I'm targeting the ones that say "improve your question". We already have close votes for that. Why do we need to add more conversation to the conversation?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:38
  • 4
    Actual instances of inappropriate comments are very rare. I have doubts ... doubts I didn't had a month ago. Since then I've seen and flagged enough to feed my doubts ...
    – rene
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:40
  • 5
    @Makoto Because the close reasons are quite broad. There is a lot of opportunity for people to provide more specific and targeted advice on how to improve one's question than the close reason is able to. Additionally nothing at all about your proposal limits this to those types of comments. Your proposal would be preventing people from explaining why an answer is incorrect, suggesting additions to an answer, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:41
  • ....Why do you need more than one or two comments to explain why an answer is incorrect? Perhaps I should add that as a clause to clarify that there would be a separate limit for answers...
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:42
  • 1
    @rene So how common do you think they are? How many questions do you need to look through (when not specifically applying any sorts or filters to specifically draw them out) to find such a comment?
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:43
  • 2
    @Makoto Even if you can explain it in just one or two comments (typically only fine for very minor problems, not more significant issues relating to more complex concepts or misunderstandings), with only 15 comments per day, that's very few questions/answers needing improvement to comment on.
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:46
  • 4
    @Servy common enough to make me feel uncomfortable. But yeah, if you take it to discoverabiity then it is probably lost in the bulk
    – rene
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:47
  • 2
    @Makoto "Why do you need more than one or two comments to explain why an answer is incorrect?" - for one thing, to deal with chameleon answers. A few times I've dealt with answers that were substantially rewritten into yet another different but completely wrong form every time I commented. There have been cases where this has gone on for 5 or 6 edits. Throw in the answerer arguing in the comments and making claims that need rebutting, and suddenly there's a lot of comments required. (The early ones can potentially be deleted later - but your proposed ban still counts them, I believe.)
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 22:13
15

While there is definitely quite a bit of snark coming through from established users on questions from new users, I can't help but think this is trying to fix a symptom instead of the root problem: Bad questions.

Tim is of the opinion that the root problem is the system itself, which is allowing all these bad questions to be asked. I can commiserate with the goal to try to be more welcoming, but trying to restrict the ability to help is overkill. I think trying to fix the system itself, instead of punishing everyone who doesn't get quite the right tone, is a better way of going about it.

All I see this doing is trying to enforce a moving target on tone, and that's going to come back to bite us, either with users just not commenting, or by finding ways around the shifting requirements.

Rather, let's try to see if we can get askers to ask better questions. We'll have a whole lot less hostility all around if this proposed change to the Ask Question page works, and we get more out of it.

16
  • "Bad" is subjective. "Good" lacks experts. You can spend weeks looking for an answer which experts should be able to address - like configuring an SPI module - whereas you can spend seconds finding and answering another question about arrays. I know for a fact that comments didn't really help me with two questions I had which required answers from people with actual subject matter expertise.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:28
  • 1
    @Makoto Which...is irrelevant to comments and tone. I'm not sure how that has anything to do with your proposal.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:29
  • I could say the same about bad questions. We know questions are bad. What does that have to do with comments besides the fact that people think it's a free pass to sound condescending because the question is bad?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:30
  • 6
    Bad questions, and the overwhelming number of them, is what leads to curator exhaustion and eventual snark in comments. If we fix bad questions, we fix snarky comments, I think.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:34
  • 1
    @fbueckert +500 bounty for anyone being able to fix bad questions. If anyone can. (read: you can't)
    – user202729
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:35
  • This isn't germane to what I'm even proposing, but I don't deny that bad questions are a symptom of the Problem™. However, I implore you to find five questions which you see as objectively bad, and five questions which you see as objectively good. Determine where your barometer lies there.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:40
  • 3
    @Makoto I think the problem of your proposal is that you extrapolate the phenomenon on bad question to all question. Limiting comments on good/ordinary question will directly hamper usability of the site.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:41
  • @liliscent: This is a Q&A site, not a discussion site. If the site's not generating answers then its usability is hampered.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:45
  • 5
    @Makoto So....your solution is to impede helpfulness by restricting an aspect of it? That seems sort of self-defeating.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:47
  • 2
    @Makoto Ironically enough, the behavior that you're advocating with your proposal (people downvoting and closing bad content without commenting on how it can be improved) is exactly the behavior that most people ranting about how "unwelcome" SO is are complaining about. I see far more people complain about the fact that they aren't getting comments to explain how their post can be improved than people complaining about getting comments that are rude. I expect your proposal would make the site seem even more unwelcome by the types of people you're attempting to placate.
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:51
  • @Servy: It at least speaks to a need to improve the messaging around why content gets downvoted or closed. Ironically, I don't disagree with your point.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:53
  • @Makoto So your solution for how to improve that messaging is to prevent people from who are already providing said messages from providing them?
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:54
  • @Makoto I certainly think we can do a much better job of communicating that, for sure. I also think we can try to tone down the snark. We can be more welcoming, and we can work towards it. But (and this is a big one), I also think new users have to do more to learn what we're all about. It's not fair to us, or the site, to have to educate each person individually. There needs to be some effort on their end as well, such as at least trying to read the rules or following the directions. That's a massive failure on their end, most times.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:56
  • @Servy: Objectively, I don't see the "messaging" having helped anyone. "You need to do X to your question to make it better" is something best left in a FAQ document. Our close votes should support how and why we moderate. If they can't in the wake of this suggestion/thought experiment, we're exposing a major gap in the site's ability to actually inform and instruct users.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:58
  • 2
    @Makoto I think we're talking about the same thing, and it's just semantics at this point. The point I'm making is that I believe new users need to make an effort, and, most often, they don't.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 17:00
5

I disagree strongly with your proposal.

Maybe it's just the tags I work in, but if you'd restrict my commenting ability it would definitely contribute to making this site "less welcome".

In VBA tags we deal to a large extent with non-professional programmers (but often professional Office users) with little programming experience. Since the recent response to forking off a "training site" or "academy" was resoundingly negative, we have to deal with these people here, or shut the door (or go elsewhere).

The other side of the coin in these tags are the professional programmers with no clue about the Microsoft Office object models. Since these are notoriously non-intuitive for people who work in "modern" languages a certain amount of discussion is sometimes necessary to narrow down where the difficulty may be and reach a common understanding.

In my experience, if I have the opportunity (using comments) to lead these askers to providing the missing information needed to give a complete and understandable answer, a large percentage of them do respond positively and gratefully.

Where I would have to plead "guilty" is providing "answers" (really, pointers in the right direction to research or how to debug) occasionally in the comments. This is usually, however, with questions that should be closed in the context of the site (too broad or off-topic).

-2

Comments are given far more clout than they should be.

Is this to say that they are abused because they show up at the top of the page, before answers?

Could/Should the comments section default to collapsed, so that the top answer is more dominant?

Then there's also the matter of someone actually answering a question in comments, which completely flies in the face of the whole point of a Q&A site. It's actually embarrasingly common to see someone post a solution in the body of comments, removed from any substantial usefulness and away from anyone looking to actually search on those answers.

Could/Should there be a Promote Comment to Answer button for use by users with a high-enough rating?

This would allow other users to clean up comments by turning them into answers while allowing the user who made the Comment to retain credit for their Answer despite them originally putting it in the wrong part of the site. It should also retain up-votes.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .