32

So the new welcome wagon rolled in and brought us more examples of comments considered "not welcoming". While I did participate in the survey and found a few comments that I found not welcoming, I really wonder about the examples given this time.

“Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here.”

Seems a legitimate question. If I don't know why someone wants to do something, I cannot solve the mess. I cannot detect any unwelcoming tendencies.

“It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess.”

This is not very constructive. There is not positive path forward, no way to answer or edit to improve this. So yeah... I can see it.

“How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!”

Personally, I tend to perceive this as unwelcoming because of the "?!" and the tone it implies in my head. On the other hand side, people agree that a question mark is not necessary and maybe not known to be required in a question, so what is it, do we care for punctuation to the dot, or do we say "ah, whatever, as long as it's readable". Because right now we seem to do both and neither is improving quality.

“You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us.”

True. Maybe a bit too direct. But at least it does show a way forward. How nice do we want people to be and what level of language does that imply? We seem to say that the direct truth without niceties is below the bar, yet we want to be friendly to people who are not native speakers. So what is it, do they need to be able to express the pleasantries that we require to be nice, or do we require only enough skills to communicate their programming problem properly?

“What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger.”

See #1. "Why are you doing this" and "What is your goal" are perfectly valid questions to solve a problem. "Please learn how to use a debugger" is good advice.

So I guess my question is... how could those comments have been improved? How should they have been written?

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  • 5
    Interesting that #2 is the only one you take issue with. To my sensibilities, #1 and #2 are completely fine, #3 reads as an irritable response to a perceived bad answer, and #4 and #5 are both insults. I'm not a fan of the idea that there has to be a single, clear path to remedying a criticism for it to be constructive (which seems to be the basis of your objection to #2). Not only is it possible to see a problem but not know how to fix it, but sometimes there are many possible fixes, and deferring judgement of what to do to the author shows more respect than presuming to give them orders.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 18:40
  • 22
    My biggest issue with #3 is that the majority of those comments come from new users.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 18:48
  • 2
    Could you include the original emphasis (italics, etc) from the quotes? The first one has absolutely nothing wrong with it, but I can see how when someone emphasizes the "why" as in the original "Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here.” it can sound more exasperated than an honest question.
    – Davy M
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 20:11
  • 11
    They can't be improved because they're bad mockups.
    – Joshua
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 22:15
  • 3
    I agree with all except this: "Please learn how to use a debugger" is a little patronizing. A more constructive approach would be "Definitely have a look at the debugging tools you have at your disposal in <insert language here>, breakpoints can be a really strong tool for fixing these kinds of bugs". Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 1:06
  • @ScubaSteve its also weirdly detached from the question asked. "What are you trying to achieve? Please learn to use a debugger". How does that suggestion to learn to use a debugger in any way help to explain what someone is trying to achieve? Of course it can, knowing the source of a problem is pretty much step 1 in creating an answerable problem description. But the reason for making that suggestion is a huge blank space left for the reader to fill in how they please. Comment-terseness, a good way to mean well and still sound like a jerk :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:22
  • 9
    When people bring their own context and emotions to text written by someone else there is nothing that can be done. These are all valid, and if one reads them with the best intentions in mind, they are all helpful. More should be made about how readers should anticipate that the people on here are trying to help, but at busy, and are coders who are naturally "to the point". Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:44
  • 3
    There's nothing wrong with suggesting to people that their problem would be best solved with a debugger, and not with a question on SO. Here's how you do that: "your problem is probably better solved by using a debugger; we lack the necessary context for troubleshooting". And the second part is actually optional, for those busy-busy people who dislike using words. This conveys the same information as "please learn how to use a debugger" minus the easily inferred undertone of the OP being ignorant or even willfully obtuse by using the wrong venue (whether that was intentional or not). Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 11:29
  • 2
    @RichardLeMesurier: be careful what you wish for. If I, a busy coder who's to the point, read "please learn how to use a debugger", in the assumption that this was written by another busy coder who's to the point, I'm going to assume the point in question is actually "you suck and you're wasting my time". That's less "best intentions" and more "I know what I'd say if I was treating you as someone who thinks just like me, and I know what I'd mean, and I know you could take it". Unfortunately, while a thing devoutly to be wished, assuming other people think like you is not reasonable. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 12:03
  • I have just imagined myself saying exactly these comments while talking face-to-face. All of the original comments, except maybe #3, just scream RUDE and invite an offensive reply. Not sure if I should judge Internet messages like this; just an idea to think about.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 14:51
  • 3
    @anatolyg I think you have a very weird sensibility. I've said variations of these comments to people in their faces, and while they put a face of annoyance, they do as told (or they don't and then they do a bad job).
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 18:43
  • The "Please learn how to use a debugger" comment is condescending and rude (even if it would be a good idea for the OP to learn to use a debugger). Commented Dec 22, 2018 at 4:41

11 Answers 11

12

Example 1:

"Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here."

Alternative 1:

"I can see at least three separate issues here, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly to help you. Can you provide some more background on why you're taking this approach?"


Example 2:

"It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess."

Alternative 2:

"I'm not sure your question has enough information for us to spot where precisely the bug is coming from. Could you also provide [additional specific info dependent on question]?"


Example 3:

"How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!"

Alternative 3:

"I'm not sure I understand how that solves my problem, could you explain a little further?"


Example 4:

"You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us."

Alternative 4:

"It would help us help you if you could include in your question some more specifics of what avenues you've tried and how specifically they haven't worked. That way we don't end up suggesting things that you've already considered."


Example 5:

"What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger."

Alternative 5:

"I'm having hard time understanding what your end goal is, could you add a little detail on that? Some of this it seems might be solved by using a debugger; do you need help/resources on how to do that?"

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  • 7
    Cue collective groaning at the idea of using many words to sound friendlier. (Not from me - I like every one of your suggestions here.)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 5:13
  • 17
    I don't. I'm not going to sugarcoat everything I say just because somebody might get offended by people getting to the point. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:15
  • 6
    @AnsgarWiechers Regardless of how you view the purpose of this site - be it a social media of clever people or a library of concise solutions to well-formulated problems - taking the pain of trying to be as constructive as possible seems to have a positive impact on how the questions will be resolved. I would point out that the OP is somebody, and whether you think that the question needs editing or deletion, the key to good collaboration is considerate communication.
    – Sami Hult
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:49
  • 15
    @SamiHult I'm not arguing against being constructive. But take example 1 from this answer for instance: the original example would have been more constructive if it actually spelled out the 3 problems. The proposed improvement, however, just uses more words for conveying the exact same information as the original example comment. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:54
  • @AnsgarWiechers I actually completely agree with you on the #1!
    – Sami Hult
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:58
  • 2
    FWIW, I think your rewritten #1 and #2 are both slightly less courteous and less constructive than the originals, primarily because they now make more specific requests of the asker. Maybe that's sometimes necessary, if the asker is a total moron who can only construct a coherent question when a patient non-moron holds their hand through every detail. But I'm inclined to think that it's usually preferable to assume that the OP can apply some independent thought in figuring out how best to frame their question and precisely what information is necessary to render it useful and answerable.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 11:11
  • 1
    Your rewrite of 3 I object to for a different reason: before, it seemed adversarial, and carried the implication of "I am capable of understanding this answer, and don't think it answers my question", and afterwards, it doesn't, instead reading as "I lack the skill required to understand this answer, and therefore don't know whether it answers my question". If the former was the meaning that was intended, that's not a good change; making the tone more deferential essentially obscures the fact that the comment is meant to be a criticism.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16
  • As for alternatives 4 and 5, I again think they seem to carry fundamentally different meanings in your rewritten version compared to the original. The course of action you propose in your rewrite of 4 doesn't appear in the original. In 5 you've turned the comment from a complaint that the asker didn't debug their own code into an offer to guide them through debugging. Making the comment more polite by transforming it into a offer to do lots of work for the OP changes the meaning drastically - and such offers clearly aren't a sustainable way of dealing with such askers, either.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 11:23
  • 6
    @AnsgarWiechers I'm not going to sugarcoat everything I say just because somebody might get offended by people getting to the point. it's probably that exact sentiment that started the welcoming initiative.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 13:45
  • 4
    @ryanyuyu Or maybe it isn't (see, I can make unsubstantiated claims too). Besides, to my knowledge it's not even proven yet that the Welcome Wagon initiative has any beneficial effects in the first place. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 14:11
  • 1
    @MarkAmery I don't think I have a particularly satisfying response for you, except to say that (IMHO) you're overthinking this quite a bit, and it's causing you to miss the forest for the trees here.
    – joran
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 17:36
  • 1
    I don't necessarily agree that we should be held to those standards, but I think these alternatives are really good. I would not have flagged a single one as rude.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 17:24
  • I think your alternatives are too verbose, and therefore hard to understand by glancing over them. Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 17:48
21

Probably by not writing them at all, really.

I'm not going to deny that "Why do you want to do this?" is something that I comment frequently, but there's a time and place for it. Devoid of context, seeing a plain "Why do you want to do this?" is probably curt at best, given that there's no context into justifying why the question is being posed at all. At face value, it sounds like the commentator is trying to find a way to not help.

Now if the comment read something like...

This methodology was deprecated back in 2015 with the advent of the FooWidget. Why do you want to do this? Do you have some specific constraints?

...now it's clear as to why the question is being posited. The subject of the comment is less about the OP and more about the problem.

This one is probably my least favorite comment of them all:

"What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger."

The commentator is basically telling the OP to solve their own problem on their own and is shut out from the actual feedback loop that they would need in order to successfully write a good answer here. Nothing positive can come from this since the tone of the comment is so barbed and it gives the OP no ability to retort or respond, or even see it from their perspective.

I still strongly advocate for comment rate-limiting for scenarios like these; giving users free rein to comment how they feel has demonstrated that it's problematic at best and gets at the heart of the ambiguity/angst towards the "Welcoming" project.

Communication is never about how you intend the message to be delivered.
It's always about how it's received.

Less communication gives impoliteness or less constructive comments less surface area to thrive.

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  • 4
    But some questions are best solved by using a debugger --- when answers have to explain "at line x your program would do y and the value of z is t. [etc.]" which can be better done by a debugger.
    – user202729
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:47
  • 15
    @user202729: We already don't support users who can't debug their code. No amount of prose is going to make them suddenly competent at code debugging. You save time and energy by not going into that rabbit hole, and if the question is otherwise objectively on-topic, then you could just answer them.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:48
  • 7
    @Makoto If you don't want to give constructive feedback on how people can ask better questions, because you consider it a waste of time, then by all means, choose not to comment on problematic posts suggesting how they can be improved. But that doesn't mean no one else is allowed to do so.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:49
  • 17
    @Servy: I've said this time and again that the system needs to be providing this feedback, not us. I'm not interested in becoming anyone's scapegoat as to why the site is "unwelcoming", nor is it really fair for us to be seen that way. Problematic posts need to be dealt with using the tools we have on hand. Commenting is not a tool.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:52
  • 6
    @Makoto Just because we can't help every single person isn't a reason to prohibit everyone from helping anyone. Again, if you don't think it's worth your time, by all means, don't do it. That doesn't mean you can stop everyone else. The people asking low quality questions and getting upset at SO aren't upset because someone posted a comment asking them what they're trying to do. They'll also get upset if you close and downvote their question, don't answer it, and no one ever comments on it. They're upset because it's not being answered, not because people ask them to improve it in a comment.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:55
  • 6
    @Makoto Again, if you don't want to provide feedback that's fine, don't. Some people don't care about the occasional user who directs their anger at not getting an answer at them, and is willing to provide constructive feedback on how to improve questions to members of the community anyway. Saying you don't want to do it is fine. Saying no one else should be allowed to is not.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:56
  • 2
    @Servy: Yes, I agree with you here. The difference in perspective that I have now is where that frustration is directed. It's more satisfying to @-tag someone and fuss at them when their question is rightfully and dutifully closed because it was poor rather than shout at the system/into the void under the same circumstance. I can't stop anyone else from doing it, but I can at least see why all of the circumstance around "unwelcoming" and rude comments happens. That's all I think I'm doing here, anyway......
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:57
  • 1
    @Makoto Yes, there will occasionally be people that get upset at you if you spend a lot of time posting comments on how posts can be improved. That's a risk that comes with doing that. Some people are okay with that, and are willing to flag those comments when appropriate and move on to other posts, and feel that the users that do listen to the advice are worth that cost. You don't. That's fine. Different people consider the "cost" of having someone post an angry comment to you differently.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:05
  • 7
    @Makoto But that's just it. That blog post was posted in response to people criticizing the fact that people downvote and close vote posts. Not that people are upset at people posting comments asking them what problem they're trying to solve. If the ability to comment went away for everyone you'd still have just about all of the same criticisms of SO that led SO to post that blog.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:25
  • 3
    Sometimes I ask which debugger the OP is using. If they are not using one, that would be an entry point to talk about what debugging tools can do.
    – lit
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 18:08
  • 2
    Less communication also gives constructive comments less surface area to thrive. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 9:22
  • 1
    @AnsgarWiechers, Disagree. Truly constructive comments should be edits to answers. And if the poster doesn't want to take on board the constructive advice, a new answer can be added (and, if serious enough, the older answer downvoted). Commenting bypasses SO's quality control (aka votes).
    – jpp
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 15:52
  • 1
    @AnsgarWiechers, OK, I think we have crossed wires. What I mean is that comments are temporary. Almost always, once I've seen a response to my comment that's satisfactory, I'm happy to have my comment deleted. SO format isn't good for a continual back-and-forth. That's for forums.
    – jpp
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 16:30
  • 1
    @jpp I completely agree that comments are (and should be) only a temporary means of communication. However, that has nothing to do with the discussion about what is or isn't acceptable as civil intercourse in comments. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 16:48
  • 2
    @AnsgarWiechers: Actually...that's everything. Comments are by nature temporal. They can't be searched. They could go away at a moment's notice. It is very crucial to stress that anything of lasting value should be in an answer and not in a comment. If it can't go in an answer, it's probably not worth preservation.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 16:50
13

My takes, for whatever they're worth:

Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here.

Seems fine as it is. Assuming it's accurate, it sounds like useful advice, pointing out to the asker that they've created a confusing, incoherent, or overbroad question by conflating different problems; this observation will hopefully prompt the asker to chisel the question down a bit to a specific problem.

It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess.

Seems fine as it is. The second sentence is basically a more specific and polite version of our MCVE close reason; I can't make any sense of calling it unwelcoming.

How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!

Though it's hard to be 100% certain without context, the exclamation mark here seems to just make the tone aggressive for no reason. Without that, I figure this would be fine. Pointing out that a purported answer doesn't in fact address the problem seems like a pretty legit criticism to me, and I don't see any reason not to say it. If it's true, saying it gives the answerer a chance to reread the question, reflect on what they've written, realise they've been an idiot, and delete their answer. If it's false, it gives the answerer a chance to argue the point in the comments and/or clarify their answer. All of these outcomes are constructive, and all are nicer than a silent downvote.

You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us.

This is obnoxious and non-constructive, and should never have been posted. Leaving aside my beef with comments like "nobody codes for you", which I've written up at https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/372180/1709587 (the wording discussed there is slightly different, but I believe everything I say there applies), there's nothing constructive in the rest of the comment either.

"You don’t understand how to use this site" is a non-specific insult that could be safely dropped, and "read the docs and then show us" is effectively a refusal to answer the question combined with a demand that the OP go away and solve it themselves. Such a refusal is warranted if and only if the question is close-worthy, but the comment as written doesn't actually articulate anything whatsoever that's wrong with the question, which kills off any chance of it being useful. The whole comment is effectively equivalent in meaning and close in tone to "fuck you - solve your own problem", and deserves deletion.

There's no way to tweak this for tone, because the fundamental message being transmitted is just a combative insult with no attempt at all to help anybody or articulate any specific problems with the post. This comment just shouldn't exist.

What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger.

Pretty hard to tell without context. "What are you actually trying to achieve?" might be a useful question or might be an irritating irrelevance, depending upon the question it's posted on. "Please learn how to use a debugger" just about might be useful advice to somebody, but it feels to me more like a non-constructive insult. It presumes that the user doesn't know how to use a debugger, and, more importantly, like the previous comment, it seems to demand that the user solves their own problem. That's only a fair thing to do if the question doesn't belong here in the first place, but the comment doesn't advance any argument for why that's so, if it is at all.

So yeah, I'd err on the side of agreeing that there's something wrong with this one, too, although it's not clear-cut.


Suggestions on how to improve these comments:

Comments 1 and 2: Do nothing; I see no room for improving the tone.

Comment 3: Drop the exclamation mark to avoid seeming aggressive.

Comment 4: Don't post it. It's pure non-constructive abuse.

Comment 5: Perhaps rewrite to something like

It's difficult to provide a clean alternative solution to your problem because your question doesn't make it clear what you're trying to achieve. As for the code you've posted, it's too long and convoluted to make for a useful question for future readers. You should be able to debug it a bit yourself to narrow the question down to an MCVE illustrating your bug, which might then make for a useful question.

Though I'm not sure I've understood the intent of the comment well enough to be certain that this preserves it.

5
  • 2
    I don't agree with the "no room for improvement of the first two comments", but everything else is spot on.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 20:33
  • "All of these outcomes are constructive" Unless the tone of the original comment bothers the recipient enough that they succumb to the urge of responding in kind... but that's why I'm a moderator, I guess.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 15:09
  • @BoltClock A relevant point in response: I find that it's possible for an interaction to be hostile, unpleasant, and yet still constructive. I've had a handful of heated comment interactions with people on Stack Overflow where I thought they were both blatantly wrong on the technical substance of their argument and being assholes about it, (and they probably thought the same about me)... but where we each eventually realised, grudgingly, that there was some merit in the other party's view, and reached a compromise that improved the quality of the post we were squabbling over.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 15:26
  • Those would be hostile conversations with constructive outcomes - ideally we'd want conversations to be purely the latter. Though I do sympathize that, sometimes, disagreements do have to devolve into heated arguments before the participant(s) will see sense.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 15:29
  • 2
    Spot on. The first two comments are perfectly fine as they are, and the fact that they were picked out in the blog post as examples of "unwelcoming" is a problem. The first comment ("why do you want to do this?") is an attempt at solving the XY problem, while the second one is a very polite way of saying "This question is useless until you give us more detail". If this is what SO employees are picking out as "unwelcoming", it's no wonder the long-term users of the site are leaving.
    – rmunn
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 23:29
11

This question is unanswerable because we don't know the context of the posts these comments were posted on or the surrounding comments. We can't know what the comments are omitting due to the question, or other comments, already covering them, and we can't know what useful advice was needed but not given, without being able to see the posts.

Basically any comment you write could be a bad comment, if it was posted in a situation where it was inappropriate, and many comments will look bad when removed from the context they were in.

Trying to guess at the context, and suggest improvements accordingly, is just not useful.

While there are certain things that there is no appropriate situation for, you asked what should have been said, there's simply no possible way of knowing that, without knowing anything about the post it's commenting on.

10
  • 1
    The context of these comments is that there is no context. If I recall correctly, the comment evaluator mentioned in the blog post and a few times here on Meta explicitly removed any existing context for where the comments came from.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:49
  • 5
    @Makoto That doesn't mean that there is no context, it just means that none of us know what it is. I'm not blaming nvoigt for removing the context. I know they didn't remove anything. I'm saying that because SE didn't include the context of these comments, no one can say how they should have been written. If/when they add the context, that would change. (Or if nvoigt used their own examples that they could provide the context for.)
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:51
  • 5
    I see your point here but I respectfully disagree. With or without context, seeing either "Nobody codes for you here" or "How is this going to solve my problem?!" elicits some kind of immediate response, and quite frankly, it's not unfair to assume that someone who sees these comments at random on the Internet isn't going to have some kind of response to them, too.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:53
  • 1
    @Makoto I said that we can't tell them what they should have said, which is what this questions asks. I never said that the comments aren't going to illicit a response.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:58
  • I still think that picking (or "guessing") an example context (questions that may have those comments are not rare) and provide improvement suggestions is more useful, as (I think) some of the comments have only one possible context (reason for posting).
    – user202729
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:00
  • 3
    @user202729 The problem is not that there are no possible questions that illicit comments like these, the problem is that there are lots, and how you would respond to them will differ. Additionally, the more you try to generalize your comments, the less useful they are. The best comments are ones written for just that one question that include specific details about it.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:02
  • Of course if the comments are made specific to each question, the exact content will be different, but the idea what to do is the same (make it specific), and if you show an example people can generalize to similar situations.
    – user202729
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:11
  • 5
    Servy, I agree that it's hard to do without context. But those comments were given without context, rated without context and then presented as result without context. I think anybody who rated them "unwelcoming" without context should be able to offer a constructive way forward from here, as context did not matter (and maybe that is instant deletion, I'm not saying that they are all salvageable). But I would like to discuss them, especially those where in my opinion "nice" is a matter of language use and perception.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:15
  • 3
    @nvoigt I consider those other uses of these comments, without their context, problematic too, and stated as much when the blog post was posted. In fact, not only is the context of the surrounding posts removed, but the author of the blog removed other parts of those comments, you're just seeing fragments of the comments posted, not even the full comments, let alone the surrounding context.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:22
  • 5
    @user202729 Just telling people to invent their own context means you'll just see dozens of answers with dozens of different proposed contexts, all potentially valid if their assumption as to the context is valid. I don't see that as useful.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:23
9

As @Servy observed, details of any improvements to the comments presented would be contingent on context, which is not available. In fact, I'm not thrilled in general about evaluating comments out of context, but as long as we're doing so, perhaps the most constructive way forward is to think about what may be perceived to be unwelcoming about them.

“Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here.”

Seems a legitimate question. If I don't know why someone wants to do something, I cannot solve the mess. I cannot detect any unwelcoming tendencies.

For me to construe that as unwelcoming requires that I interpret the question "Why do you want to do this?" as a criticism, ala "you want to do a wrong thing." The followup statement perhaps biases me a bit in that direction. But no one is served by avoiding pointing out such problems. The best we can do is de-personalize it as much as possible, and we should do so. However well we do that, though, people will still sometimes choose to be hurt or embarrassed. This is a risk -- on both sides -- of life on the Internet, and no one has a right to expect complete freedom from that.

“It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess.”

This is not very constructive. There is not positive path forward, no way to answer or edit to improve this. So yeah... I can see it.

I have to agree that this one sounds pretty messed up, but perhaps putting it in its proper context would soften it some. I can see evaluators keying on the word "trivial", taking it as a signal to interpret the comment as "this is a stupid question", but the rest of the comment partially contradicts that: if the answer were simple and obvious (to the commenter), then they would not have to guess.

I think the best out-of-context advice I could offer is to choose your words carefully and to be constructive. Perhaps in this case that would mean replacing the comment with a request for an MCVE, but that's not clear.

“How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!”

Personally, I tend to perceive this as unwelcoming because of the "?!" and the tone it implies in my head.

I receive that one from OPs occasionally, with varying punctuation. I agree that the exclamation point adds a little extra poke, but for me, the real problem with it is the sentiment it expresses, to wit: "Your comment is useless because it does not solve my problem. Stop wasting my time with such things." I guess I'm inferring some context here, despite my intention, but I'm having trouble contextualizing the given comment any other way.

In any case, I see no way to improve that comment. It ought not to have been made at all. Perhaps the commenter would be better off expressing an altogether different sentiment (e.g. "Thank you."), but I'd consider that a completely different comment, not an improved variation of the one presented.

“You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us.”

True. Maybe a bit too direct. But at least it does show a way forward. How nice do we want people to be and what level of language does that imply?

Maybe true, somewhat. In fact, people sometimes do write code for others here, despite what I consider to be our conventions and norms. In any case, the "you don't understand" part seems both personal and somewhat aggressive. That leaves the rest of the comment sounding like a challenge to me. Without guessing at the context of this comment, all I can suggest is, again, to depersonalize. The comment seems to be about our expectations, and those can and should be presented neutrally, perhaps with a link to the appropriate section of the site help.

“What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger.”

See #1. "Why are you doing this" and "What is your goal" are perfectly valid questions to solve a problem. "Please learn how to use a debugger" is good advice.

I agree that "What are you actually trying to achieve?" can be a valid and appropriate question. Out of context, I see nothing to criticize about it. On the other hand, although "Please learn how to use a debugger" is indeed good advice, it does come off somewhat dismissive. I can perceive it as "You are defective because you obviously don't know how to use a debugger. Fix that, then you won't need to bother us with questions like this."

Certainly some people are more inclined than others to receive comments in such a poor light, but wording changes could make that less likely. In particular, changing it from an imperative into a suggestion or a leading comment could help: "Running your program in a debugger would help you trace down the problem." Note that not only is that still good advice (couched in the form of a statement), but it conveys a presumption that the receiver is competent.

4
  • First point - with or without context, yes; "Why do you want to do this" is a criticism. It's a valid criticism in certain cases, but this is not about the criticism itself; it's about its cardinality and intent. Does one intend to be helpful if they submit "Why do you want to do this", or are you looking for a way to not answer their question? The intent of responding like this is key here. There's a difference between a question which is unanswerable and a question which one doesn't like.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 17:20
  • 8
    I'm sorry, @Makoto, but I cannot agree that "Why do you want to do this?" is necessarily a criticism. On its face, it is simply a request for information, and such information is sometimes relevant to determining how best to answer the question. If we're going to start interpreting "Please provide the additional information I need to answer the question" requests as unwelcoming, then we're done. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 17:27
  • 1
    If I ask a question explaining that I'm trying to foo the bar through baz and the first thing I hear is, "Why are you doing this?", I'm going to take that as a criticism, irrespective of what your intentions are. There's a better way to phrase a question like that. That's all I'm implying.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 17:39
  • 3
    @Makoto Yes, there are better ways of phrasing that. But practically all of them involve context. Context that was deliberately removed from the example comments. I refuse to accept "why are you doing this?" as invalid criticism for questions where the OP is clearly trying to do something they shouldn't or when what they're doing doesn't seem to make any sense. Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 12:28
8

Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here.

Don't comment at all. Instead, vote-to-close as unclear what you're asking (to focus on the why) or too broad (to focus on the three problems).

It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess.

Don't comment at all. Instead vote-to-close as unclear what you're asking or off topic because lacking a MCVE. Consider a down-vote to drive away the help vampire and because the question is probably not useful to others.

How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!

Don't comment at all. Instead down-vote and not not accept that answer.

You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us.

Don't comment at all. Instead, vote-to-close as too broad and down-vote to drive away the help vampire and because the question is probably not useful to others.

What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger.

Don't comment at all. Instead vote-to-close as unclear what you're asking (to focus on the what) or off topic because lacking a MCVE (to focus on use a debugger). Consider a down-vote to to drive away the help vampire and because the question is probably not useful to others. If the poster asked something like "how can I discover the cause of the problem" it could arguably be closed as a duplicate of What is a debugger and how can it help me diagnose problems? or What is a stack trace, and how can I use it to debug my application errors?, to focus on the how.

I think you can see the pattern here: comment less, vote more.

0

I agree with most of Makoto's answer, and I'd like to emphasize how important the first impressions of a comment or post are. First impressions of the tone of a comment will color the perception of subsequent dialog. Comments that start out sounding accusatory are inherently unwelcoming. It's that gut reaction of "these people think I'm dumb" or "they don't want me here" that is the reason these comments are unwelcoming.

So the best way to make comments more welcoming is to start with something that's not accusatory or otherwise unwelcoming. I don't mean that you have to start every comment with "Welcoming to Stack Overflow!", just that you craft comments to leave a good first impression.

I'll add my two cents on some of the comments Makoto didn't address.

You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us.

IMO, this comment is curt, bordering on condescending. Opening up with "you don't understand" is just getting off to a bad conversational start, even if the comment wasn't meant in that light. In addition, this comment doesn't link to any of the docs despite the availability of [ask] or [mcve] magic links. I'd recommend a comment like We don't answer broad questions that only ask for a bunch of code. See [help/on-topic] and [ask] for the kinds of questions we accept. You can soften the lead of the comment even more if you wish, but notice that this comment puts the focus on us instead of implying they are at fault. And of course, the links only help the comment guide the user to more information of how we operate.

How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!

I think you got sidetracked trying to suss out the minutiae of English punctuation. If your first impression produces an unwelcoming tone in your head, that's probably how it's going to be perceived.

2
  • 2
    Very agreeable. Musing: maybe there should be two levels of comment privilege: the ability to comment (50 rep), and the ability to be the first to comment (250 rep).
    – Gimby
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 10:38
  • 2
    @Gimby: That might actually work. Post that as a suggestion. I'll upvote it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 16:48
-2

Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here.

I think the greatest problem here is that if the asker actually has conflated three problems, then what that means is that the asker is not aware they are separate problems. Simply telling them they have conflated something is usually not going to help them making the distinction they need to be making, so the comment would be improved a lot by stating explicitly, however briefly, what that distinction is.

Of course, from the sample, we don't know whether the commenter proceeded to provide that explanation in subsequent comments -- but usually, I think, one would at least start the explanation within the first comment, and overflow to a second comment only if you hit the character limit.

(There's an argument that once one hits that limit, explaining the difference could probably become an answer in its own right, but let's assume for the sake of discussion that it is indeed a comment-worthy explanation).

-2

While @joran's alternatives assure the least probability of the recipient feeling unwelcome, they sacrifice their succinctness. The case I'd like to make is that meaning can be expressed both succinctly and without offense. I feel that some alterations could be made to each of these examples to alleviate harshness while preserving the comment size, if not reducing it.

Consider:

Example 1

"Why do you want to do this? You have conflated at least three problems here."

Alternative:

"I'm curious, why do you want to do this? I see a few separate issues."

The phrase "I'm curious" suggests interest in solving your problem, and clarifies why I want your reasoning. Instead of stressing that there are many problems, the emphasis should be on the fact that there are problems. It also removes the personal blame that you're conflating things and replaces it with my subjective observation.

Example 2

"It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess."

Alternative:

"The small bugs can be the trickiest; it's difficult to find the line they're coming from. This could be a guessing game."

As others have noted, this comment could use some additional instruction to be useful to OP, but my point is that I was able to remove animosity while saying the same thing. "Trivial" might make you think I don't care, so "small" is used instead. I don't make the conversation into "you" vs. "we"; it feels more like we're in this together.

Example 3

"How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!"

Alternative:

"Thanks. How can I use this to solve my problem?"

A simple "thanks" is enough to avoid most misinterpreting the tone here. It doesn't assume that the answer is irrelevant or unhelpful, but gives you a chance to further explain your solution in case I'm missing something.

Example 4

"You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us."

Alternative 4:

@joran kind of cheats here because their alternative contains a very different meaning than the original, rather than a rewording. This is appropriate, however, because this comment is the most blatantly unwelcoming of the five, in my opinion: an assumption followed by a falsity followed by a command. Allow me to propose a more succinct version of @joran's suggestion:

"In your question, please include some specifics about what you've tried and how it hasn't worked. I wouldn't want to suggest things you've already considered."

Example 5

"What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger."

Alternative 5:

"I'm curious, what are you trying to achieve? A debugger might help."

It begins the same as the first comment's alternative for the same reasons. A command is substituted for a suggestion. Easy fix!

Summary

@joran's alternatives prove well the principle of using positive, helpful comments instead of negative, ambiguous ones. The point I'd like to make is that encouraging and/or enforcing the use of longer, formal comments may actually be unwelcoming (ironically) to commentators. For some people, the opportunity cost of earning some rep for answering OP's question may be outweighed by the feeling that they have to communicate to OP like they're sending an email to their boss or a client. While I don't personally feel this way, I can understand those who do.

One final thought: if you ever suspect that your comment could be taken the wrong way, there's never a bad time to add a "please," "thanks," or even an international symbol of happiness and well-being.

3
  • I don't like your rewrites of comments 1-3. To my eyes, it's not clear that the rewritten versions of those comments are criticising the post that they're commenting on - which it seems to me was the whole point of the originals.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 21, 2018 at 22:06
  • @MarkAmery You're right, I'm attempting to transform comments that critique into comments that help. It seems to me this is the distinction SO wants us to make.
    – swinn
    Commented Dec 22, 2018 at 3:39
  • That doesn't seem like a true dichotomy to me. Take, as an example, the second sentence of example 1. Before, it clearly pointed out a problem with the question that could perhaps be addressed. Now it doesn't. How, then, can it possibly help anyone in its current state?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 22, 2018 at 19:36
-8

Summary:

You should formulate your comments carefully to avoid misunderstanding. "Feeling of being unwelcome" is a type of misunderstanding, easily avoided by better wording.

Avoid rhetorical questions and passive-aggressive "observations".

Make your comments constructive.

Express one idea per comment.


Why do you want to do this? ...

I agree with Brian Davis about the problem with rhetorical questions. If you phrase your comment as a rhetorical question, it becomes less constructive.

An additional problem: over the Internet, even a genuine question may look like a rhetorical question: "Why do you want to do this?" = "You are wrong in trying to do this". Better be careful in formulating:

Doing this looks strange to me because X. Why do you want to do this?

or

Please [edit] your post and describe why you want to do this.

In addition, if you want to write a constructive question in your comment, don't write unrelated info after the question. People easily get distracted, and forget all but the last sentence in the comment. If you want to write two unrelated things, use two comments. If you want to write two related things, write the most constructive one last.

You have conflated at least three problems here. Why do you want to do X?


It will be very hard to help you with such a trivial bug. It could come from any line in your code, and we have to guess.

I cannot guess what the comment is talking about without context. This may indicate that the comment contains not enough info. Make it more constructive.

I don't understand what the problem is. Do you want your program to do X instead of Y? Please [edit] your question to clarify.

or

Your code contains too much unrelated info. Please prepare a [mcve] to make it easier to answer your question.


How exactly is this going to solve my problem?!

Is this a genuine or a rhetorical question? Whoever is supposed to answer it will feel awkward. Use a more neutral form, and be clear with your punctuation.

How is this going to solve my problem?

or

I don't see how exactly this is going to solve my problem. Please clarify.

or

This cannot possibly solve my problem.


You don’t understand how to use this site. Here nobody codes for you; read the docs and then show us.

This is too personal. Direct your comments at the content, not at the user. The following may be better.

A request for code is not enough. Show the code you already have, and ask a specific question about it.


What are you actually trying to achieve? Please learn how to use a debugger.

Another example of two unrelated things in one comment. Use the following instead:

What are you actually trying to achieve? Please [edit] your post to clarify.

Another problem with the original comment:

Please learn how to use a debugger.

This formulation is inflammatory. It implies (passive-aggressive) that someone doesn't know how to use a debugger. This assumption, if incorrect, invites an unconstructive reply ("I do know how to use a debugger"). If you want to convey a constructive message, use the following:

Please use a debugger. Update your post if you still cannot solve your problem.

10
  • If you disagree, please comment what you disagree with, and why. This post is rather long; indicating just "disagree" is unclear.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 15:26
  • The problematic cases of unwelcome feeling have never been about formulation. Anything other than whatever it is the user is expecting will be said unwelcoming, then the blog post will be held as mighty shield against any and every sensible explanation or communication attempts. Your exemples are fine, but the premise lacks the reality terrain check, as far as what I've seen and experienced from first hand contacts and Twitter shitstorms holds true. Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 4:52
  • "Problematic cases" as opposed to non-problematic ones, where the user actually wants to learn and is prepared to put the effort, including managing their expectations in hindsight. In those cases almost any explanatory comment will be understood, and people will go their way with improved knowledge. Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 4:55
  • ... interestingly enough, the comment thread that happened just now meta.stackoverflow.com/a/377636/576767 pretty much expresses what I'm saying here. This is an exemple of a problematic welcoming feeling, of a user who have no idea what they are looking for, rejecting three lengthy and comprehensive comments, and are probably frustrated as of now. The comments are very polite, explain what happens, and how to improve. This was not about formulation. Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 6:46
  • I cannot agree with this, even seeing this example. I still think most such cases (including this last example, which is now deleted but visible) are caused by misunderstanding, and could be prevented with careful wording. I see now that I am in the minority, so either I get more convincing arguments, or just agree to disagree.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 10:39
  • Yes, more convincing argument, possibly actual examples of new users that are presented with comments and understand them, would be great. As of now, it mostly seem that you refuse simply to refuse, even presented with evidence... How much more careful could these comments be, really? Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 12:41
  • Take your most recent comment as an example. You say that I mostly ignore stuff that people tell me (while I genuinely read and understand it). You then ask a question, which I interpret as rhetoric and not constructive. While I am not offended by anything mild like this, a new user could find it hard to extract value from your reply. What you (in my opinion) should do instead - make it easier for OP to agree with your words. Instead of "you did X; please don't" say "please do Y instead of X". Instead of rhetoric questions, ask normal questions or use an imperative ("Please do X").
    – anatolyg
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 14:22
  • BTW just to make it clear - I think that your example is not evidence of the type "comments were OK; user got offended; therefore, nothing can be improved". I think comments could be improved and could prevent the user from being offended. However, you are not obliged to do it; use your language according to your personal taste. I described my personal taste in my answer.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 14:38
  • 1
    Which is why I asked "how much more careful they could be". That's really not a rhetorical question. I think all resides in "I interpret as", that you said. No amount of careful formulation will prevent people from interpreting things as they see fit. I agree that we should be careful, which is why I try and do it. You completely invented the "nothing can be improved" part, this is not what I say, neither what I think, nor what I do. Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 14:52
  • What I said, is that you seem to simply refuse the possibility that some users act like that. Your further comment goes in that direction. I have no idea about how you consider what people say, and I haven't commented about that. Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 14:56
-16

Part 1 of quote 1:

“Why do you want to do this? ...

In my experience, this phrase is too often used as a rhetorical question. It seems to imply "Obviously what you are doing is wrong, you are wasting our time by asking a question about how to do the wrong thing. Go rethink your question."

Potential improvement:

"Are you trying to best-guess-here? If not please explain your intentions."

Continuing on this topic a bit more:

Perhaps the OP seems to be "reinventing the wheel".

sudo example of OP question "How to use mouse wheel to scroll a column of buttons in Android"

You could explain the feature already exists, what the feature is called (perhaps List), and link to the documentation.
While acknowledging that the OP may require behavior that is not supported by the existing feature, and potentially providing recommendations and/or pros and cons of reinventing the wheel.

Perhaps the OP is using the wrong tool for the job.

sudo example of OP question "How to automatically export XML to CSV using NotePad++"

It is easy to want to ask "Why", But far more constructive to propose a better tool (perhaps XSLT) and ask if there is a requirement or limitation that drives them to use NotePad++ (or commands/extensions supported in NotePad++).

Simply asking "Why?" is too open ended, and not driving the conversation to the specific topic you are wondering about. It essentially says "Some part of your question is incomplete or unclear, I'm too busy to tell you which part. Try again."

Part 2 of quote 1:

...You have conflated at least three problems here.”

I had to look up what conflated means.
Showing you have out-smarted me with your vocabulary is not welcoming.

edit: (see strike through) I am sorry.

If you see "at least three problems", it would be constructive to point out what they are.

Potential improvement:

"I find it helpful to break this up into separate concerns: problem1, problem2, problem3. There may be other concerns as well, but these are the ones I see."

6
  • 6
    I don't think saying "conflated" is an attempt to show someone that they were outsmarted with vocabulary. I do agree that it would have been more useful if they had specified what they thought the separate problems were, though. Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 19:38
  • 14
    "I had to look up what conflated means. Showing you have out-smarted me with your vocabulary is not welcoming." Well, I've had "conflated" in my vocabulary since I was a teenager, so I use it when it's the appropriate word. Different experiences. Starting from the assumption that everyone commenting is a pompous jerk who's just here to belittle you isn't welcoming, either. Assume good intentions.
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 19:51
  • 25
    Wow, really? Basically anytime I use any words that a subset of users may not know, I may be tagged with 'unwelcoming'? Really? The bar for offense has sunk that low now?
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 19:57
  • 6
    @Patrice I think I'm going to start trying to communicate with grunts, that way I never use a word that someone might not know.
    – Davy M
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 20:07
  • 4
    Besides, what on earth is wrong with learning a new word?
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 20:08
  • 3
    @Davy one thing to say to that:. ARUMPH! Make of it what you will :D
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 0:35

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