80

Honestly I think this situation broke me since it's so paradoxical. In light of recent events, I'd like to keep the tone neutral and apply this in general since I don't think we've actively thought about this.

  • User A comes in with a problem in their code. They may only armed with an error message or stack trace, or only code without a stack trace.
  • Users B and C attempt to help but ask for more context (i.e. code to reproduce the problem, or the actual error).
  • User A cannot understand their demands since they don't understand what it is B and C are talking about.
  • Users B, C, D, E and F then vote to close their question, and may add downvotes to the question, frustrating A.

...Have we ever supported users like this before? I don't recall this being a thing, because...

  • Typically we downvote/close questions without any code.
  • Typically we downvote/close questions without any obvious effort.
  • Typically we downvote/close questions where we can't reproduce something.

My gut tells me "no", but I'm wanting to take the temperature of the room.

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    I suppose this does reflect how far the lofty goal of Stack Overflow has come if we have to ask this question...
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 23:54
  • 89
    "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers." Couldn't we expect that either of those things would at least have some idea of what debugging is? Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 23:55
  • 13
    @AndrewMyers: Fundamentally, the concept, notion or even idea of an MCVE is literally the same as asking them to recite their latest work in Ancient Egyptian. This isn't a new thing, honestly; there are plenty of beginners on this site that don't know how to formulate MCVEs or what they are. I think the bigger questions I'm posing are, "do we really support this??" and "how do we let them down gently?"
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 23:57
  • 17
    @Don'tPanic: I think it's absolutely fair to have that expectation.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 23:57
  • 12
    @Don'tPanic On the other hand, I'm an enthusiastic professional and sometimes I wish someone else would debug stuff for me! :)
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 0:02
  • 12
    This is my first time on Meta and I came to ask this exact same question. I've run into a lot of users this past year on the react-native tag that don't seem to understand what MCVE is even when linked or seem to not understand that users can't help if no code is ever shown. This is ignoring the mass of questions that are just syntax or spelling errors that should be easily caught with knowing basic debugging. And now I'm starting to recognize users that clearly don't know how to do simple debugging (or just reading docs). Engaging them in comments didn't work for me. What is left to try? Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 0:15
  • 9
    What this the straw that broke your back?
    – Mysticial
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 3:24
  • 49
    S T A C K O V E R F L O W I S A D E B U G G I N G S I T E
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 3:39
  • 29
    @CPerkins: I personally have no problem with novice programmers. However, the only way to make this site work is to meet in the middle. If a novice programmer literally cannot reproduce code that they are getting an error for, not because they don't have the code but because they genuinely cannot understand the mechanical process of doing that...then I'm not convinced we're equipped to support them.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 4:22
  • 22
    They have to meet us in the middle @CPerkins. We're bending over quite a lot here...
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 4:53
  • 19
    'I'm wanting to take the temperature of the room' well, as you might guess, my temp is about absolute zero on this issue. It's often just a waste of time to try. Users lie and mislead. They say that files are defintely open when they are not. They insist that 'the problem is not in function X that I have not posted' and expect us to believe that without evidence. The OP is the only one with the compiler. linker, environment, debugger, logger etc in front of them. In most cases, asking others to troubleshoot via some slow, text communncation in comments is just a pointless waste or time. Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 6:03
  • 21
    @Max: My patience has limits. I'm more than patient with novices. I refuse to tolerate not being able to actually produce code that shows what error they're running into.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 6:26
  • 9
    @Auspex Come now, a blatant attempt to show superiority? People might regularly use the acronym because that's how industry speak works. You should never assume malice just because someone uses an acronym you don't know. And handily, the system will auto convert to a fully-written link if you type [mcve] in brackets in a comment.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:59
  • 13
    @TroyTurley: It's a two way street, y'know? We're here volunteering our time, and they're looking for knowledge. All we ask (and really, all we ask) is that they abide by our standards. If they can't, and then they turn tail, there's really not much left to say; they don't want to be helped by us. There's other problems in the middle there but ultimately, I can't say I feel bad about not helping someone who willfully ignores our standards.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 15:22
  • 9
    I don't disagree there @TroyTurley, but in context, there are tens of thousands of askers, and maybe a handful of active and earnest answerers. It does get tiring to have to ask the same thing over and over again - "Where's your code?" "Where's your error?" "What inputs are you trying?" Anything truly offensive or inappropriate can be dealt with via comment flags. But arrogance? Kinda depends on the comment. Got any examples?
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:09

8 Answers 8

21

With regards to your bullet points:

  • Typically we downvote/close questions without any code.

"No code" has never been a reason to downvote or close here. That said, typically, as in given a situation referencing coding something, code is a major requirement and without it the question is easily closed as too broad.

  • Typically we downvote/close questions without any obvious effort.

Fully agree. This reminds me of the historic Should Stack Overflow (and Stack Exchange in general) be awarding “A”s for Effort?. Basically the reasoning supporting your point was that "lacking effort" essentially translates to a lack of research, description, and/or presentation. When it is all three, then something is definitely lacking in the post.

  • Typically we downvote/close questions where we can't reproduce something.

There is a close reason for this, so yeah, pretty straightforward. Not sure there is any point discussing this aspect.

As for the broader discussion about supporting users...

Stack Overflow isn't about users, it is about content. If you disagree, please post a meta question asking about Stack Overflow's Social Network features and tell me how that goes.

If a post's content is unclear, then vote to close it as such. This should have nothing to do with the user themselves. That a question asker was not attentive enough to actually improve their question should not surprise anyone who has been here for longer than a few months, and should also not frustrate you because it literally is not worth it. Just vote based on the current state of the content, and move on, perhaps with a head shake.

Sometimes, error messages are really vague, and identifying the code associated with them can be very difficult. My point is this: it depends on the error message. For example, a failing database context due to a deadlock inside of a task running asynchronously with a set of other tasks gives a hard to track error message. However, more often than not it is something trivial, like a reference error.

Does Stack Overflow support users who do not understand reference errors? No.

Is there a canonical question for content based on reference errors? Yes.

Choose to upvote/downvote, choose to close vote or not, move on. Focus on the content. Focusing on trying to educate every user who has not properly learned to debug their code will cause you to burn out and feel like the site has turned against you (which is hasn't - these users have existed and will always exist both on this site and in real world environments).

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  • 2
    The users produce the content. If the content is bad, culling the content while not addressing the root cause of poor content will only ever result in a constant game of "Whack-a-Bad-Question". If the problem is clearly established upstream, we should deal with it upstream. That isn't to say that Stack Overflow is a social site; far from it. But at some level, telling the user that what they're posting is not suitable here as opposed to curating museum pieces will lead to, well, better museum pieces.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 11, 2018 at 1:11
  • That's not to say I disagree. I find your points accurate.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 11, 2018 at 1:11
  • @Makoto - I agree that simply removing content all the time instead of addressing its root cause would be counterproductive. If a user is producing bad content, then banning them from posting is the right thing to do, and that is how it is currently dealt with. I wouldn't exactly call that "supporting users" though, and I also do not believe that would fall into the category of social networking.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 1:35
  • Those are system level tasks though, or moderator tasks. Individual community members such yourself or myself should not worry about telling the user how to post, that is on them; identifying content as "bad" is enough. At that point there is enough data to automate a response to a problem which has been identified by the community once it reaches certain thresholds.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 1:35
70

"Support" them? Sure. We can close their questions as "too broad", "unclear", or maybe "needs MCVE", explain why, and point them to useful resources in the comments.

Can we answer their questions? No, I don't think so. Your gut

My gut tells me "no"

is absolutely right.

To actually answer a question like the [one that we're not talking about][0] means a long session of back-and-forth with the asker. Asking questions in return, teasing out information, and leading them down a path, maybe without being able to see the material at issue, maybe without even getting to a resolution.

That doesn't sound like something that goes into a Stack Overflow answer. That doesn't sound like something that anyone else will find a solution in. It's not multiplying the force of each answer with Google juice like we're here to do. It's creating yet another forum thread that nobody can find, and even if they could find it, they can't figure out if it's useful, and even if they figure out what it says, they probably have followup questions that no one will see unless they necro-bump the thread, and then there's another page of "whoa holy necro, batman" that will be added for the next person to wade through.

The other option is to give very general guidelines, like what was posted on the question we're not talking about. This is okay, I guess. The material probably fits better there than in a comment. And it will likely be useful to someone else, so that's a definite win.

But it doesn't need to be posted and re-posted onto every single error-dump question that shows up. Because then when I, who do know how to debug, go looking for a solution, the first 101 search hits will all have the same boilerplate "How to debug" and no real information that actually helps me. And then I'm going to throw my monitor out the window, because it's pretty much the same as calling my cable company's tech support.

But one good, comprehensive-yet-concise "how to debug" post can certainly find a home here.* And then, going back to my initial paragraph, everyone who comes and says "it's borken" can be pointed there.


I don't think we've actively thought about this.

I'm confident that we have indeed considered it. (Also in longer form on MSE.) In fact, we used to have a close reason that said exactly "we can't 'support' you because you don't understand what you're doing". And we have one now that is similarly construed (2).


*Per language/framework/platform

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  • 1
    And another instance of this having been considered: Should we have a more specific close reason for vague debugging questions? (which was used as a dupe master for the question I'm still not going to mention).
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 1:49
  • 16
    You forgot to point out the fact that after this "long session of back-and-forth" that the OP may just finally disappear without a trace (and without working code) which means a lot of time wasted for all parties involved.... How many times does a question get posted here and a comment left to OP to clarify a bit more, just to never get a response? Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 4:10
  • 10
    @K.Dᴀᴠɪs: All the time?
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 4:35
  • 1
    Yeah, it's difficult to add clarification, print out a value or inspect some variable when you are a homework factor, you have just copypated from the net or whatever, are totally clueless and cannot place one line of code after another. That happens much more often than it should:( Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 5:35
  • 2
    @K.Dᴀᴠɪs example: stackoverflow.com/q/49158881/758133 19 hours and the OP cannot be bothered to edit in the error details:( Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 14:25
  • @MartinJames: my downvote and the accompanying comment were, of course, meant as an incentive for the OP to do so. Sometimes it works ... and often it does not. This one – he didn't pick up that hint, nor a certain amount of follow-up butt-prodding.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 22:21
  • 1
    Closing questions is certainly not supporting them. Some general guideline and maybe a more detailed answer with an educated guess are good starters. Then, it's up to the OP to fix the question.
    – Alejandro
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:15
  • 5
    @Alejandro: no, closing the question shows the OP the reason why it cannot be answered. If the OP then chooses to fix it, it can be re-opened. Answering unclear questions is generally considered undesirable behavior.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:29
  • I'm not sure I agree with the rationale of an omni-debugging guide on this site, but your other points make a lot of sense. I would say "you don't understand what you're doing' was abused quite a lot, and while there's overlap between "you don't know how to debug and that makes it tough to help you" and "you don't understand what you're doing", the former is something we assume that everyone has the base understanding for, and the latter could implicate anyone asking a question (and it was routinely used to close questions in that fashion).
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:36
  • 1
    @usr2564301 It also reinforces the image that Stack Overflow is an elitist, beginner-hostile site. When the question is totally unclear and "do my work for me" type, I agree in downvoting to hell and closing, but otherwise, when a reasonable guess can be made, some attempt, even in comments, don't seems inappropriate.
    – Alejandro
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:56
  • @Makoto, true, a debugging guide for an entire language would probably be too big. I imagine we could probably still make space for a guide for debugging smaller areas that made sense. "while there's overlap between" This is a good point; and as I've said before, I agree that close reason did get overextended.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:36
  • 6
    "Closing questions is certainly not supporting them." Yes, it is. They're in the wrong place, and they get a nice clear explanation of that fact, along with advice about how to rectify it if possible. You can see the alternative in any web forum you like: a page and a half of acrimonious debate among other members about whether the post belongs or not.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:55
  • 2
    Any newbie who is posting error messages and stack traces is light years ahead of the newbies asking Javascript questions
    – Dexygen
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 21:46
  • Why did you revert back the correction?
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 23:03
  • 1
    Did you just assume Makoto's preferred gender-neutral pronoun?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 11, 2018 at 5:05
14

We can and do support questions where the asker doesn't know how to debug1, just not all of them.

There are any number of reasons why we might support this sort of question. Everyone here has some level of consideration for their fellow users; sometimes someone has a bit more time than normal; some users are after reputation gain; sometimes you'll recognise a problem that's hurt you before.

We can't prevent this sort of question being answered, no matter how many "rules" are posted in meta answers or help centers [sic]. When these questions do get answered I hope a developer somewhere in the world has really learned something useful - I'm certain that I've taught people how to debug through this site before.

"Debug this without any code" needs to remain a close reason. It's hugely time consuming to teach someone to debug and there can't be an expectation that the level of support required will be available to all users; it can't be.

However, a few times, every day, people will be taught to debug via comments somewhere on this site. I don't think that's a bad thing.

1. Especially if they mention bank accounts.

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  • 2
    I think you may be conflating something. People learn how to debug every day by coming to this site. We don't directly teach them how to debug. The situation I'm posting about is more about the latter, in which the expectation is for us to teach them how to debug.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:34
  • I have directly taught someone how to debug @Makoto. As have others. I am talking about people learning how to debug every day.
    – Ben
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:06
  • ...Yeah...Y'see...I'm not. I'm talking about users expecting us to teach them how to debug. That's where the disconnect is. This definitely makes for a warm and fuzzy storyline, but this ain't the point.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:07
  • 1
    I don't see a disconnect, though there's obviously something wrong if you think there is. You asked "Have we ever supported users like this before? ". My answer is "We can and do.. needs to remain a close reason. It's hugely time consuming..."
    – Ben
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 22:22
10

I've done this many times professionally as a mentor, where the goal was to turn new programmers into good programmers for the company paying our paychecks, and chat feels more appropriate then question/answer to help these people. Some will not be willing to be helped, but those that could just use a bit of guidance may benefit from it.

Also, this feels like something that fits within the recent experiments to help new users ask better questions.

Combining these two ideas, have we considered creating the ability to "sponsor" a question from a new or low quality user? That would involve opening a chat room, allowing the user and mentor to both edit the question, and rewarding the mentor with a point or two of rep for every up-vote the question receives. Or something like that. Use the power of our rep hounds to help these users.

Even if they solve the problem in the chat, the new user could be asked if the mentor was "helpful" when they abandon the question, and that could also provide a bit of rep to the mentor. Yes, this can be abused, but there are probably ways around that (max 5 rep a day or something).

Just some thoughts.

3
  • 6
    Indeed, we have considered exactly that last year.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 14:49
  • 1
    Thanks for the link. It sounds like there was a positive response from the experiment. Looking forward to the next step. Commented Mar 8, 2018 at 15:14
  • 5
    I'm sure that there are efforts being taken with the whole mentorship program pilot that was done, but for the rest of us, it doesn't scale well. Besides, that's not the point here. Given the circumstance today, I'm not convinced we have the time or resources to guide absolutely new programmers just asking a question and then not understanding how to debug their own code.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:32
9

Users B, C, D, E and F then vote to close their question, and may add downvotes to the question, frustrating A.

Right? I've thought about this recently, and one of the main underlying problems to me seems to be frustration.

As somebody who knows how to use a computer, I've often been asked for 'tech support' (as I'm sure many here have), where it's basically just me googling the problem until I find a guide that solves the problem. I propose to the person asking for help; "Well, why don't you just try googling it yourself like I do next time?", to which they respond; "Yes I could do it, but it's so much easier for you". Well, it's not that it's easier for me necessarily, but granted, I've done more problem-solving in the past, so I can think of more things to try out before giving up.

I think this is also a problem with newbie debugging. They've run out of tools in their toolbox to try out on the problem, becoming more and more frustrated in the process, and finally giving up and asking for help here. But then when they get here, they're told that their question is basically "not good enough", well, that's what it sounds like to them (and hey, it is hard to ask a good question).

User A cannot understand their demands since they don't understand what it is B and C are talking about.

They think; "Why can't these people just solve my problem. It's so much easier for them!". Even though, really, comments asking for clarification are helping to solve the problem, it's just that the poster's mind is clouded by frustration, and it's not the answer they wanted to get.

I've run into this same frustration when playing video games. Sometimes you just can't beat a level. You can keep re-trying and re-trying becoming more and more frustrated. But sometimes what you really need is to take a break, calm down and then think of new ways to approach the problem, or just to be a little more focused and careful next time you try.

I can see this happening with people who come here, frustrated after hours of debugging. Of course they're not gonna take their time reading through the help center, write out their question carefully, do multiple proof-reads, check to see if there really aren't any duplicates, and then post. They're frustrated, they just want to have their problem fixed, so they post a quickly written question, that then gets downvoted, keeping the frustration train going.


What can we do about this? The solution that works for me is to take a break, calm down, and re-think my moves. Perhaps we could ask newbies to wait before posting their question if they're feeling frustrated, but I'm not sure what kind of text would be effective at doing that.

Another solution is to force first-time posters to wait (let's say 30 minutes) before their question actually gets posted. This gives the frustrated people time to cool down, and at the same time, you can present them with a list of generic problem solving and question improvement tips. All the while, their question would still be editable (without resetting the timer), or retractable.

8
  • Should the "take a break" be on both sides? Sometimes I feel like we don't give the users enough time to fix bad questions... Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 9:40
  • @AndyClifton Yeah, I usually try and at least get a response from the poster first, to see if they're willing to improve the question. Most of the time others do too, but some questions just happen to get a lot of attention, and everybody giving their (negative) opinion at the same time. Not really sure what to do about that though. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 9:49
  • 12
    " I feel like we don't give the users enough time to fix bad questions" They have all the time in the world to fix their question. It is freely editable even when it's closed. And if it is closed, an edit then will bump its visibility for consideration of reopening.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 13:13
  • 2
    @JoshCaswell I'm not sure if it's directed at me, but I'm gonna respond any ways. If you're not familiar with the closing system, you might not realize that questions can be re-opened (it took me a while to realize at least). But, to the frustrated mind, who's also made themselves vulnerable by asking for help here, seeing their question closed in what is (sometimes) a very short amount of time, is not gonna strike them as "huh, maybe I should look at improving my question" imho, but rather as them not being given a chance here. That's not our fault as a community, but it's still a problem. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:31
  • @JoshCaswell Some people will outright re-post their question to get a fresh set of eyes to look at it. But actually just waste more of the same people's time. Now, I'm not saying we should be a bunch of care bears, hand-holding the OP into the scary world. That's why I'm proposing to let them cool off for 30 minutes. To someone who's calm that won't matter too much any ways. But currently, this just seems inefficient. One party here (the frustrated OP) is not ready for reasonable communication. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:31
  • I'm not sure if a timer is the right move here. The only thing I see it doing is delaying the inevitable wave of backlash and other noise that would hit due to the question lacking important details.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:33
  • @JornVernee My comment was a comment on the thing that I quoted, which was Andy Clifton's second comment. Aside, I agree with the idea of slowing askers down. I think you're right, it would be good for everyone.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:35
  • @Makoto For some it might, but that seems a little pessimistic to me. I'd like to assume that most people are reasonable. Sometimes you're just stuck in frustration (or in a mental work-flow) and don't really think things through, and it can help if someone says "Hey, just stop and calm down for a few minutes, and look again at what you're doing". Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:49
7

When I got frustrated about that I created a question and answer to use as a canonical question to help them. Arguable, all questions by askers who do not know how to debug are duplicates of that.

Is that enough to teach these kinds of people the basics of debugging? No, and we can't do that, because doing that would be a too broad tutorial. I think a canonical question like mine can show beginners that there exists a useful and powerful tool that can help them, gives them a flavour of how it can be useful, and plant the idea that they need to go and investigate how to use that tool. If we can also communicate that knowing how to use that tool is basic knowledge expected of any enthusiast or professional programmer, it will be clearer why we are not providing more help.

2
  • ...Meh. We're kind of phoning it in there, aren't we? We're saying as a professional and enthusiast site, "Hey, here's how you debug." Frankly it feels hollow to me.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:30
  • 3
    @Makoto Well, the truth is I'd rather just tell them to go away and come back when they've learned some basics: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/257874/545127 But apparently, that would be badwrong.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 18:53
-2

I tried to comment but it says I need at least 50 reputation to be able to do so, so I am offering an answer just so that I may offer up a perspective of what most of you would consider (and I would as well) a novice. Check around the site for my questions, you will see that I had some bumps along the way in my first posts. But from the perspective of someone who has come here looking for help, I will say that you all are indispensable. Makoto, I understand the frustration of dealing with novice users.

If I may offer up my own perspective, though, some of us are here out of desperation. When I first came here, I had stepped into a new environment and been asked to create automation based on my technical skills being strong (I have worked in QA) and I had a very basic understanding of VBA based on my work in creating macros in Excel (most based on recording, and then adjusting). I was then asked to start incorporating that into Outlook and Word which I was able to start doing. But Outlook code is different than that in Excel and I was lost.

So I spent months (literally, months) searching for code help. I even reached out to some excel book authors. I was able to find some code here and there and started teaching myself as best I could. However, there was some stuff I just could NOT figure out. So I started posting on sites like this one. Some of you tried to help me, but as you first noted, I got frustrated because some of what was said to me I just did not understand. I knew enough to post my code, to post the error I was getting, etc. But some answers like using a library, or enabling scripting, etc, I had no clue. So I researched the terms, etc. Eventually found answers. Tried things, posted back and forth, etc. Some things that were probably annoying for someone like you....I had no idea that you could step through code using F8. Did not know that debug.print would show in the Immediate Window. Did not know what 'Dim' meant, and so on. I still would not know if it were not for the help and knowledge of people like you on this site.

I honestly think that there are probably only a handful (relatively speaking) of people like you who ACTUALLY have this coding knowledge in the world, and you have no idea the impact your help can have for someone struggling. You do not need to offer up your time or knowledge. I personally do all I can to give credit to you guys. I wish there were more options to do so on this site other than just marking something as an answer. Wish I could buy you all a beer, but I cannot. All I can really do is say thank you and that I have learned so much from this site and its contributors in the past 9 months. To the point I am now moving down a whole new career path. I still will sit here for days at a time trying to figure something out on my own before I post here. Then, in minutes, one of you will post up something like one small line of code or a syntax correction and then boom, everything works.

You have no idea the feeling when suddenly your code works when you have been hammering away at it for days, weeks, months(well, maybe you do, I just figure your code all just works from the get-go!). In that time, though, it is so much frustration and failure. This site is a like a beacon of hope to someone like me who is truly trying to learn and just gets 'stuck'. Things like loops, certain conditionals, needing to know how to incorporate a function, use a dictionary, etc. Still really tough for me. But I am learning, thanks to you guys.

I wanted to comment on this (again, I hope that is okay) because I am one of those guys that came here not knowing what I was doing at all, and I hate to think of someone else like me getting turned away completely just because they may be asking a question wrong, or do not know what you guys want to see. SO does offer up instruction in posting questions, but even so we may think we are doing it right, but still screw it up. Just know that for some of us, we do it in earnest and really are working as best we can to figure it out on our own. I read posts on this site for weeks before posting, because it was obvious you all had the expertise. I think that is why others do it too. In my first ever post, it was downvoted, etc. I was very frustrated because in my head, I thought I had done a good job in forming the question. I am thankful that I was not completely turned away. As I said, this has changed my career path. That is the type off effect you can have on users you help. I needed help in learning just how to debug as well.

Downvote, delete, etc, this post as you see fit (I hope you don't!). I just wanted to post from the perspective of someone who has been one of those frustrating people mentioned in this post and to once again say thanks.

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    I take umbrage to your assertion that we "have no idea of the feeling when our code suddenly works when we've been hammering away at it." I actually do feel that euphoria, especially given my job; we're exposed to a lot of new technologies and a lot of old legacy code, and having everything click is quite frankly, what I go there for.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 15:50
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    You also seem to be taking this a lot more personally than I intended it to. Simply put, this isn't about beginners vs. veterans, regardless of the slant anyone wants to put on this. This isn't about someone who knows everything or someone who is just starting out. This is about core principles. If one comes to Stack Overflow asking a question, a core principle is that we expect them to know at least how to debug at little bit.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 15:51
  • Hello Makoto, hey, I did temper that statement about the euphoria with the comment that 'maybe you do, I just figure your code always just works', ha! It truly is amazing when it all just 'clicks'. I do not want to put a slant on it, or make it a personal issue. I completely understand your point of view and do not argue against it. If my response was personal, it was because it was meant only to offer up the perspective of someone who might come here not knowing anything. Since it was my perspective, I suppose it was inherently personal. But not intended as such, I assure you! Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:02
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    Oh no, I get your perspective. I'm simply stating that you're missing my point.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:03
  • Also, I am happy to delete my answer completely if you feel it might derail the post into something you do not intend and will offer my apologies! Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:03
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    "I tried to comment but [...] I am offering an answer" Perfect, that's what you should do when you have so much to say. The thing I think you're missing is that those of us who know a thing or two went through the exact same struggle you did. In fact, having done so, you are now someone who knows some stuff. But that struggle is a personal thing, and helping somebody with it doesn't fit within the confines of a Stack Overflow post. It's not to say that wanting that help is wrong; only expecting to get it here is. There are other venues where it's available.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:51
  • I mentioned my perspective in that I did not know much of anything...I knew how to find my error, and look at what values were being assigned to my properties, but did not know how to step through. Would that qualify as basic debugging skills (serious question)? Or do you refer to the need for MCVE? If so, I totally agree. How can someone expect to be helped if there is no code, perhaps a sheet example (help me help you)? My view is that someone MAY have that minimal skill, but not portray themselves as such in that they just post the question incorrectly. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 18:17
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    Knowing how to find your error and looking at the values of your variables is, quite frankly, enough. That's all I'd look for. If you can do that then you can develop your skills to become more sophisticated. But at a minimum inspecting what values you're getting from you running your application with given inputs is the very fundamental basics of debugging. So yes, you're doing it right.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 18:20
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    Okay cool, thanks for clearing that up Makoto I agree people should at least be able to do that. I fully believe that a user should put forth a good faith effort in learning, not just getting code written for them. I waited a long time before creating an account here to post as I kept reading posts, seeing what you guys hated seeing. I also understood WHY you hated it; you are helping but people need to help themselves too. I agree with you on all of that premise. I only worry about dismissing people immediately because they do a poor job posting, failing like I did even with all my research. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 18:40
  • Thanks again for answering my question Makoto. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 18:40
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    All in all a fair point of view but "I only worry about dismissing people immediately because they do a poor job posting". You feel they should (a) receive all the help they could ever have wanted – including "do you mean this?" Wild Mass Guesses, or (b) be pointed to the failings in their question and how to improve it?
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 22:07
  • I think I just see it from the view of having been in that spot myself. For me, I had gone to all those other sources already. MrExcel,peers,VBAExpress,OzGrid,MSN, etc. The expertise was here and it was how I was set on the right track. I was actually nervous to post the first time. Just remembering that I had already been beating my head against the wall for months and desperately needed help. Kept working on my own but kept failing. To get shut down immediately can be discouraging and we may not know the whole story behind the post. I like to help others as I was helped by people like you. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 22:50
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    But, to answer your question, I have completely agreed that posting rules should be followed, and met, and that people should be putting the work in, not just expecting work to be done for them. That's not fair to the developers here on the site. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 22:53
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I'd like to try to pull together ideas of mentoring and support, but with something that possibly fits in better with the stackoverflow approach of Q&A, tags, and community wikis.

I think there are two related issues:

  1. Current vote-to-close reasons don't include something about an inability to debug, and
  2. how to support new users in learning how to debug.

Issue 1 could be dealt with by adding a flag about "User could not debug their code" or similar to capture this as the reason for closure.

Issue 2 is more complex. We know that not everyone has the time, patience, or inclination to mentor one-on-one, and that's where automation could help. We have enough information from the question to automatically point User A at existing resources that introduce and support learning how to debug their specific type of code. This would also be more productive - teach a person how to fish, and all that.

But what resources should we use? Some IDEs and languages have good examples of debugging in their documentation already, and those could be linked to from the SO language-specific tags. Or, where there aren't good "official" resources, there are probably already questions and answers on this site that could be used. I'm thinking of examples like the MWE on tex.se. The community wiki would be a useful tool to keep the examples up to date.

How could this be implemented? One possibility is a message back to User A after their question has been closed for any of the reasons that you highlighted. To be more encouraging, it may even have to be presented as a temporary closure, whereby the user at least feels that they would be welcome back when they have more information. The user could then be presented with a stackoverflow'ied version of "we're sorry your question was temporarily closed, but have you tried these resources to learn how to debug?" close message, linked to those tags and community-wiki answers, instead of the dead-end that they currently reach.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but this could be one way to go.

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    I should be clear here. This isn't a mentorship situation. This is a vanilla, someone-asked-a-question-and-can't-debug-their-code-period situation. It seems that the desire to help is there, which is...kind of the issue? It doesn't scale well to mentor and tutor everyone who just doesn't know how to fundamental and basic things like debugging. Even the students I tutor - some of which have had no formal CS background - understand the concepts of figuring out how their code works. Interestingly enough I believe they had that before I got there...
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 14:29
  • Hmm. To me, it is mentorship in this case because B & C attempted to help. What I was trying to get at with my answer was how to move beyond not giving user A any help at all, but at the same time how to avoid having to engage in a lengthy one-on-one dialog with that user (been there, done that). Also, not everyone gets how to debug. Another part of the problem today is that there's a really cool website called stackoverflow that makes it seem like you can get a specific answer really quickly, where as before most of us used to build skills by RTFM'ing because dialup was so slow... Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 15:16
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    ...Do you view a site like Stack Overflow as a mentorship site?
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 15:54
  • Nope. Q&A. But I see almost no way to avoid a tiny bit of mentoring - that's what happens when you engage with someone. You've changed the relationship. Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:05
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    "User could not debug their code" already has a close reason: the reason that asks for a MCVE. The request for an MCVE is a stealth request: truely producing an MCVE would be doing some debugging, and either solve the problem or produce an interesting question.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jan 2, 2019 at 7:54

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