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On meta, there are many times where downvotes don't reflect that the question/answer is badly written, factually incorrect, or generally off-topic, but that there is some form of disagreement between the posters and the voters. Examples of this kind include:

  • Feature requests that the voters don't think should be implemented
  • Discussions where the community is split (half disagree with the other half)
  • Discussions about a closed question where the majority believes should stay closed.
  • Unpopular announcements by the admins/developers, for new features that voters don't like
  • Posts that are argumentative and/or written under emotion
  • Disagreement with the premise of the question

In my opinion, all these reasons indicate questions that are really on-topic on meta and often lead to very interesting and insightful discussions, but the current system prevents them from being featured on the sidebar as interesting.

The reason is that metric seems to use the net score (upvotes - downvotes) on the question and answers to determine if a question should be featured in the "Hot meta posts" list.

My proposal is to change the hotness algorithm on meta to use the metric (upvotes + downvotes), thus enabling broader discussion of the issues, even if there are valid downvotes on the question and/or the answers.

For cases where the downvotes are in line with the use on the main site, e.g. off-topic, unclear, spam, 1000th duplicate, etc, we have close votes and flags to keep them outside the sidebar.

Do you agree that these posts should also get a chance with the sidebar? Do you agree with the metric proposed in this post? Can you think of a better metric to prevent such posts from being marked as not interesting, and thus hidden from the sidebar?

To prevent cases where someone is downvoted to minus infinity because of the high number of views since the question is featured, the OP of the question should probably be able either to unfeature his question or to easily disassociate himself from the post.

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    I generally agree with the proposal, but why is it necessary to disassociate a post on meta when it's highly downvoted? Votes on meta don't affect the user at all (no rep).
    – BDL
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 16:21
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    @BDL: Personally I wouldn't do it, and I never delete my posts due to downvotes on meta (lots of evidence in my profile :) ). But I can understand someone being ashamed of the downvotes and not wanting such posts on his public profile. Also sometimes people get downvoted on their main profile due to something unpopular said on meta.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 16:23
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    I think the title is a bit misleading since this is actually talking about the automatic selection of "Hot Meta Posts", not a literal meaning of "interesting" (because I do find some are interesting... or at the very least, entertaining). Note that currently, only questions tagged with 'discussion' are able to get into Hot Meta Posts though. Not feature requests, support questions, or bug reports. But mods can always manually feature a meta post if they want.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 17:18
  • @AndrewT.: I would argue that the "hot meta posts" list should highlight the most interesting questions. Otherwise it runs the risk of reinforcing group-think. Regarding the tag restriction, I didn't know about it, personally I would like all meta-posts to eligible, but that's a different discussion.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 17:23
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    A post with lots of downvotes is not necessarily controversial or interesting to the masses
    – charlietfl
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 18:19
  • @charlietfl: If it's not interesting to the masses there will be minimal engagement from them, and it will quickly fall off the HMP list, due to the lack of new votes. If it's off topic it will quickly get closed. The argument is that if people are interested enough to vote in large numbers, then it is likely to be interesting.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 18:26
  • @user000001 The point being some really poor content should never get on that list in the first place
    – charlietfl
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 18:40
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    @charlietfl: But then how can one distinguish between poor content and controversial/interesting content? Wouldn't truly poor content generally get closed/deleted before getting into the list?
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 18:43
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    @Andrew At the time Shog9 wrote that answer, MSO was an exception to the rule that only questions tagged [discussion] could be "Hot Meta Posts"; see this answer. Now, I don't know if those old rules are still true, after HMP was eliminated, and then brought back. I know the new version eliminates a post as a candidate if it has any [status-*] tags, but I'm not sure if it reverted the exception that MSO had regarding questions tagged as something other than [discussion]. I do believe, however, the score threshold is still 3, which is a very low bar.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 19:45
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    @CodyGray: I don't know what makes you say the bar is low. I just opened the newest questions list and only 22 out of 50 (first page, oldest was at 15/11) are above the threshold for inclusion in the HNQ list. The point though is that the threshold shouldn't be based on the difference between positive and negative votes, But on the total votes. If people are engaging with the question at a high rate, even just to disagree with it, it still shows that the question is interesting and/or controversial.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 20:28
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    @CodyGray: Or, to put it differently, a very small number of meta regulars with strong opinions against something can ensure that all questions about it will be buried forever, and never reach the general SO userbase, who's opinions on the matter are likely very different than this small group.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 21, 2021 at 20:42
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    @MisterMiyagi: But to answer your question, from personal experience on meta, a 15 minute time delay before including something in the sidebar would be more than enough to filter out "trash" questions. Most get closed in the first minute.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 9:02
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    @MisterMiyagi I don't think I've seen any worthless-rant meta posts that reached -100 downvotes before being closed; but "Unpopular announcements by the admins/developers, for new features that voters don't like" can receive hundreds of downvotes and stay open. I took a quick look at the last few pages of questions sorted by votes and it doesn't look like such heavily-downvoted questions tend to be rants; mostly they're just things people disagree with strongly (though of course, deleted questions won't show up in search).
    – kaya3
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 10:09
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    Unpopular announcements are a non-issue here. They get the featured tag added, which keeps it in the sidebar no matter the downvotes.
    – Laurel
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 14:09
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    Yes I think it should; it is "hot meta posts", not "popular meta posts" after all
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 15:58

1 Answer 1

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The objective of "Hot Meta Posts" is to show interesting posts. But it actually shows highly upvoted questions because people agree and appreciate them.

For downvoted questions, there are multiple types of question:

  1. Create debate/discussion but people disagree with the suggestion (such as this one) → Interesting.
  2. Off-topic that will be quickly closed → NOT Interesting.
  3. Bad/Duplicate question → NOT Interesting.

The main differences between the 3 types are:

  1. Downvote & upvote, sometimes lot of views
  2. Closed quickly or merged
  3. Closed as duplicate, and no upvotes

For me, the amount of upvotes, without counting downvotes, can help. Both show if people agree, and the upvotes show if the post is any good.

Let me show you a few examples:

Question Upvote Downvote U/D % Should be hot
This current question +6 -13 46% Yes: good but disagree
Accepted answer, but reputation has not been updated +0 -11 0% No: duplicate
Piece-of-code-highlight/error highlight for Stack Overflow +5 -14 36% Yes: good but disagree
Beta release of Collectives™ on Stack Overflow (ex. of official post) +130 -400 32% Yes: good but disagree
Is it OK to point out to a moderator suspected serial downvoting? +2 -20 10% No: duplicate
Is there a way to upload code on Stack Overflow? +2 -18 11% No: Need details

To conclude, I think that posts with 5 upvotes & 33% of upvotes can be cast as "Hot", because they seem to be well-asked but not all people agree with.

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    I support this suggestion as well, and thank you for answering. One observation from the table is that all the ones you marked with no have been closed, so they would be excluded by my proposal as well. Maybe we should somehow figure out what the score breakdown, and the time since posted were at the time they were closed, to figure out if they would have ever been hot under the different proposals.
    – user000001
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 11:02
  • Yes, I just take random downvoted question and I found just closed one. But all no-upvoted question will be bad, and so closed for a reason like duplicate or need details
    – Elikill58
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 11:04
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    If we just go by total upvote count + isn't closed, we're fine I think. I don't think we need to involve percentage of downvotes in the mix, and that makes the metric more stable (unlikely to no longer be true) which is a good thing since the community bulletin is cached and can't react to rapid changes in voting.
    – Erik A
    Commented Nov 22, 2021 at 17:16

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