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I know that voting on meta is different (Can we talk about the voting culture here on Meta?). But many new users, including me in the past, don't know it.

I have seen that many meta questions of new users have lots of downvotes. The main reason for this is that those are full/half duplicate questions. (I don't know if this is also a duplicate request, I searched but did not find a similar question.)

And most new users questions are related to why their account is banned, why they received downvotes, etc.

When they get more down-votes on meta they might think that it also affects their reputation, etc. They are fed up with SO and the final result may be they go away from SO.

So is there a possible way to show them that "voting on meta is different"? Something like an auto generated notification when they receive the first meta down vote? That way they can know that it's not affecting their main reputation in any way and that their question might be good but the community simply dislikes the request, etc.

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    They fed up with SO and final result may be they go away from SO. I would call that a win but it looks like you have a different idea about that ...
    – rene
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 11:06
  • I don't have time to test this but do new meta users get shown /ask/advice on their first meta question? If so, an extra paragraph there might work for the few that do read.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 11:09
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    @rene I suggested (something like auto generated notification when they receive first meta down vote) since many of new users don't read them. When SHORT notification receive they read it... And don't don't underestimate the users who even don't read "how to ask area"... For new users this is just a site...... But when they get some answers they will understand important of this... then they will try to increase their rep... Final reasult is they ask good questions and they give good answers too.... Time is needed for many new users to understand it... Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 11:13
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    @rene I don't have time either, but it'd probably be more helpful if new user is introduced with "What's Meta?" Page instead (and probably get "Informed" badge for reading that)
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 11:43
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    @IamtheMostStupidPerson If they don't read them, then it's their fault.
    – user202729
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 12:31
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    Related and related.
    – user202729
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 12:33
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    Downvotes on Meta are somewhat different, as they can express disagreement with the idea. However, they also can very well mean that the post is of poor quality, poorly researched, or otherwise a bad question, and is downvoted for that too. If we just make a blanket statement "Downvotes are different on Meta", many people will take that as an excuse to ignore them and not even bother considering that their question may be low quality.
    – Davy M
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 14:27
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    Besides, downvotes are never a bad thing, here or on the main site; someone cared enough about your post to indicate it's bad, so people who get upset and offended at downvotes, here or there, need to really learn that they aren a public shaming or personal attack, but rather a constructive criticism.
    – Davy M
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 14:27
  • Related (and a good illustration of why it is tricky to make that into official advice): Can we edit/remove the arrows' tooltips on Meta?
    – duplode
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 20:39
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    @DavyM It's criticism, but I wouldn't call downvotes with no explanation constructive. A downvote can mean too many things to be able to consider a downvote, on its own, as constructive.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 6:31
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    @Makyen In all honesty, nearly always when I see a post getting downvoted, the asker did something that is specifically addressed in the tooltip, which are just three things: no research, not clear or not helpful. A person should be able to look at that and see of their question has shown any research (Most common issue I see), then if it is unclear (We have an entire how to ask page that will help a person evaluate the clarity of the question) then if it is useful (The how to ask page covers this too). Either way, a downvote invites introspection on the post. It is definitely constructive.
    – Davy M
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 14:18
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    @Makyen Something being less useful than something else doesn't mean it's not constructive. Knowing that someone things a given post isn't useful is constructive, even if it's sometimes less useful to you than a more detailed description.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 14:18
  • Ahh, an interesting idea that good people can discuss about trying to help those who are not in the know. Like every single person here once was! But, I see the usual bully-like responses "you have to live under multiple layers of sedimentary and igneous rock if you have no idea how it works. Don't let the door hit them on the way out.". Did you plop into this world knowing how Stack Overflow worked? Ironically, there's a serious lacking in intelligence in someone who has the expectation that "everyone" should know how Stack Overflow and meta work.
    – James
    Commented Mar 28, 2018 at 23:14
  • Some of the comments towards the top especially are exactly why a lot of people hate StackOverflow, despite all the hot air, er, talk, over the past few years about how we're trying to make it friendlier.
    – Dexygen
    Commented Mar 28, 2018 at 23:26
  • @James we're not asking a person to know every in and out about how the sites work. All we ask is that a person take 5 to 10 minutes to take the tour and read through the How To Ask page. In all honesty I didn't at the start, and I asked a convoluted question hoping that someone here would fix everything for me, and it wasn't until the downvotes started coming that I read and found out why my question was too broad and unclear. Then the choice was mine: learn from my mistake, or get mad and blame SO users for my bad question. I chose to learn, and now I'm still learning and loving it.
    – Davy M
    Commented Mar 29, 2018 at 2:22

2 Answers 2

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You lost me at

and that their question might be good but the community simply dislikes the request, etc

This is an oft repeated and a gross oversimplification of meta voting. If you trick people into believing "disagreement" is the only reason that questions are downvoted on meta, you are setting those users up for failure on meta.

Most of the times questions are downvoted for the same reasons they are downvoted on the main site - people are asking unclear, vague, and/or duplicate questions without doing any research.

A great example is the frequently asked "Can we require comments on downvotes" and its variations. Every time it is asked today it is downvoted into oblivion (but one of the oldest variations actually had a positive score because people thought it was useful). And many times that question is asked the user comments about the downvotes, and some "helpful" soul tells the user to not worry and that people are just expressing disagreement with their idea without any further details. So that user goes away thinking he asked a good question and will repeat the process every time he has a "great idea" about improving Stack Overflow, only to meet more and more downvotes.

Now if the "helpful" meta user instead told the original asker that the downvotes were because he asked a frequent duplicate and he should do his research first before asking, and the downvotes were legitimate because the 735th duplicate of the same idea is a low quality and not useful question - that user might learn that meta is not about dumping random ideas and has the same question quality standards as the main site (perhaps even higher standards).

But users are confused about meta voting as it does happen quicker than on the main site, and tends to generate more comments and feedback. So yes, maybe a tool tip or popup of some kind could be helpful, but it should focus on anything but the "disagreement" mantra.

  1. Meta votes don't affect your reptuation
  2. Downvotes may mean your question is not seen as useful
  3. Remember to search for similar ideas and previous discussions before asking a question
  4. Ask a specific, clear, and well research question

And interestingly enough #2, 3, &4 would apply to the main site too.

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    ... crap, you're right and I'm very guilty.
    – Gimby
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 12:35
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    @Gimby everyone is. I've done it myself. Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 12:38
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    i suspect most people posting such comments do so just because it's easier. When you say, "votes on meta are different, just ignore them entirely and keep posting bad questions", the question author just goes, "Oh, that's easy, I can indeed ignore them and keep posting bad questions". When you say, "you got downvoted because you asked a bad question and didn't do your research and ask a clear question" they get upset at being told their question wasn't good and that they're expected to ask good questions.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 14:22
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When we think about this, I think it's important to consider the functions that meta currently serves:

  • It allows users to ask for support
  • It allows users to report bugs
  • It allows users to request new features
  • It allows users to raise discussions about site governance
  • It allows users to raise 'call to action' posts, usually for some kind of janitorial task that could benefit from many hands
  • It allows for communication from us (Stack Overflow, the company)

That's quite a few endeavors, some of them vastly different in purpose, means and ending, all relying on the same features and functionality and our user's knowledge of certain tags differentiating how things should be interpreted. That's a mouthful to say, much less process, much less learn when all you want to do is figure out how something works.

We could take stabs at eliminating frequent pain points and perhaps we should, but we've got to take a much bigger look at how 'meta' as a platform isn't serving all of the needs we kinda-sorta-maybe-hopefully-were-pretty-sure-ish it would when we just stood up a Q&A site and said "here's how this works differently".

Let's take a second and run down the list, and kind of where we are:

  • Support requests: The community does a fantastic job of creating and curating a pretty detailed manual on how stuff works, what to expect, how to solve common problems, and a collection of thoughts on why things work the way that they do. And it's great to see new questions get answers in a way that makes them suitable for adding to this collection. But, the increasing majority of these don't really need a crowd sourced effort, duplicate existing questions even though they're often asked quite differently, and become onerous on the community to answer. We need to find a better way for us to do the bulk of the support work, wile working in conjunction with folks invested in maintaining a really good public knowledge base. Getting down-voted for asking what you thought was a perfectly valid support question is pretty yucky, but so is expecting volunteers to be overjoyed at yet another duplicate. We need to use a more proper (and unified) support system, especially now that we've got several paid products to support.

  • Bug tracker: Not so good. Stuff gets overlooked, it's hard to manage any kind of presence (as in yes, we saw this) without unrealistically setting expectations (as in it's a year later and still no status tag). Stuff frequently gets closed (often as a duplicate) erroneously because users can only go by what they see. We really need a bug tracker and a way for people to say "this affects me too!", where we control how stuff gets closed and merged, and where robots kick dirt in our face if we neglect things. Downvotes on bug reports aren't very helpful, and can be off-putting to people that put time into writing them not realizing what they could have searched for.

  • Feature requests: It's actually pretty good for that, but again, we suffer from a lack of presence from us that doesn't set bad expectations. At the current scale it's so easy for a dozen things to fall through the cracks if just one person takes a short vacation or extended stint of sick leave. Yay / nay voting on these is pretty essential because a lack of "yay" can hide an overwhelming crowd of "nay!!!", but we need to make that experience different.

  • Discussions: Again, yay / nay work well here, but it's really hard to find consensus. The upside-down Q&A system is a great start here, but we need more, and there has to be some kind of clear path for change to happen in a way that it's advertised so we can avoid people unwittingly getting brow-beaten for breaking rules that are buried on page 317 subsection 21-A paragraph 119 that wasn't even advertised to them :)

  • Call-to-action: Works okay-ish, but why can't we advertise tag related discussions and tasks to people on the main site invested in those tags based on their participation? While I love that we're able to occasionally spot tag cleanups and other janitorial stuff that our developers can help make short work of, meta is (unfortunately) a place where that kind of work goes to die all too often. It just never gets seen, and also suffers from a lack of a consensus mechanism.

  • Communication from us: This works, okay-is, but we really need a more informal blog kind of system built into meta for stuff where we really only want to reach seasoned users that have interests in how stuff works and what we build. That's .. not the company main blog, and hasn't been for quite some time. I think we'd communicate quite a bit more if we had a more informal way of doing it, and I don't know how votes / answers come into play there.

So to the point (and yes, I do have one, and had one prior to that rant) we need to look at how all of the mechanisms here on meta work and make more informed, long-term decisions on the direction we need the software to go. While we don't want a platform for purely mindless fun, we do want people to feel more welcome here, and less like they've done something horrible even if their first attempt didn't go so well. To that, we definitely agree, we need the UI to do a much better job of setting people's expectations while encouraging everyone to keep the overall well being of community discourse in mind when participating.

But more duct tape and gum just lets us kick that can down the road another year, and I'm honestly tired of doing that. I'm putting this as deferred, because it's technically not declined, but the rabbit hole probably goes a lot deeper than you anticipated :)

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    looks like you forgot to mention support requests (like this one for example:)
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 28, 2018 at 14:38
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    @gnat I totally had it in my head and I think the relay that indicates when fingers have fired might be broken, I'll get it checked out (added).
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 28, 2018 at 15:34
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    Oh oh up up up voted for the hopefully-maybe-in-the-future bug tracker. Bug reports right now seem like they rely on the luck of being seen.
    – Ajean
    Commented Mar 28, 2018 at 16:16

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