78

In a land where imaginary Internet points exist -

I have noticed a rash of "why was my question downvoted?" questions and it seems that in every case a small number of downvotes has caused the OP to rant first before someone on Meta can calm them down and get to the heart of helping to improve the OP's question(s).

Have we, as a society who gives trophies to everyone who participates, heightened the sensitivity of people to the point where any small take-away is construed as personal?

It makes me think that we should do something similar to what happens when a vote is cast for a duplicate answer - when a downvote occurs a community user comment is with a link to "how to ask" or a "there is an issue with your question" info page. I know that commenting on DV's flies in the face of several posts concerning being forced to comment on a DV but if there a generalized thing like I mention above it might not be so bad.

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  • 54
    this is a psychology question. Off-topic and voting to migrate... just kidding. shesh! Well, let's see. Nobody likes to be called "stupid," it's a pain greater than any... Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:34
  • 9
    LOL! Great comment @Coffee Here is the thing, a downvote !== calling someone stupid Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:36
  • 31
    We know that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else does.
    – JonK
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:37
  • 37
    No matter how bad we may think a post is, I'm pretty certain each and every user feels their post is of value and has taken reasonable effort on their behalf. As anyone, they want help or just a pat on the back. When that doesn't happen ....
    – Bart
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:37
  • 10
    "if they have read" ... that's a pretty big if. And then there's the difference between theory and practice of "I welcome constructive criticism".
    – Bart
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:42
  • 6
    Well that's the thing, the overwhelming majority of users don't read all that they should have...if they did we would be seeing the tons of junk coming through every day, and they largely wouldn't need to whine about downvotes as a result
    – JonK
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:42
  • 6
    A downvote can mean so many things...poorly worded question, incomplete question, failure to even try themselves, duplicate that could have been resolved with a simple search...etc. Since there is no differentiation in a downvote, people tend to take it to mean they are wrong and not one of these possibilities.
    – Twelfth
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:55
  • 7
    A downvote is represented by -1. I think there will always be a negative stigma associated with negative numbers, it's just how it is.
    – gitsitgo
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 19:14
  • 27
    Yeah, it's why I was so bad at math. Any time the answer was a negative value, I felt like it was telling me I was a complete failure. I don't even want to talk about how irrational numbers made me feel…
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 23:00
  • 12
    Sounds like you have some kind of complex. I can only imagine... Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 4:26
  • 5
    Actually, the fact is that (1) people are insecure (because they are aware of their competency), (2) they take downvotes as a sign of being told that they are incompetent. From times immemorial, truth has always caused grief to humans.
    – 0xdeadbeef
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 5:54
  • 10
    I very rarely take it personal, but sometimes it's anoying to see a downvote on a complete and IMHO correct answer. I've see sometimes a day or two in a row people downvoting perfectly good questions too.
    – danizmax
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:52
  • 11
    The only time I take a downvote personally is when it seems it is done in spite, especially if I proved another user wrong and they used their downvote as a means to spite me, has happened before now. Any other time I will ask for a reason to downvote, since I wish to know why I am wrong so I too can learn; afterall that is the point of this site right, to learn from others knowledge? A anon downvote seems counter-productive to the sites purpose
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 7:20
  • 6
    I was tempted to downvote this question just because you clearly don't care, but I couldn't because I actually agree with your sentiment. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:47
  • 4
    Have a downvote! Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:01

15 Answers 15

97

Why do people take downvotes so personally?

Two reasons:

  1. It hurts to be told that you are wrong.

  2. Downvotes lead to a ban.

The rep loss seems (mostly) a minor thing.

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    This. There are a lot of people out there who kick up a huge fuss over anything to do with rep, but to many other people, rep is totally irrelevant.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:44
  • 3
    Downvoting doesn't tell someone they are wrong, it just indicates a problem with the question. I guess people misconstrue that too. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:50
  • 14
    @Jay Blanchard: Even if we're talking about questions and not answers, you can be told, for example, that your premise is wrong. For example, I know I downvote questions like "which is faster, class or interface" because, I mean, seriously. In any case, I think when the answer says "to be told that you are wrong" it just means "to receive negative feedback" in general.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:55
  • 4
    @JayBlanchard I mostly had answers in mind, but this is also true for questions. You indicate a problem with their question. This precious question that they feel proud of.
    – user000001
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:55
  • 45
    As a relatively new user, I know I find it a tad annoying when someone downvotes a question I've researched pretty thoroughly without telling me how to improve the question. I think that's where the personal element comes in - people feel criticized without understanding why.
    – bobloblaw
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 5:27
  • 6
    xkcd.com/386 Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:49
  • I feel like another reason is that the downvoter is taking a -1 rep hit in order to force a -2 rep hit on the downvotee. So when your post is downvoted, not only did someone dislike it, someone disliked it enough to want to penalize you even though they had to take a penalty too. (Granted, both penalties are, as stated, in imaginary internet points, but still.) Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:54
  • 1
    @user000001 I would argue that your first point still holds even if the poster isn't particularly proud of their question/answer. It's still embarrassing.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:07
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    But it isn't penalization @KyleStrand, it is a statement that there is something wrong with the question / answer. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:20
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    Some people get banned from asking questions which frustrates them. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:28
  • 5
    @MadsterMaddness some people keep reading crap again and again and again, and it frustrates them.
    – user289086
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:59
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    @JayBlanchard It's still penalization because you lose two points. The fact that that penalty is usually deserved doesn't make it not a penalty. Consider sports: yes, refs can sometimes make bad calls, but in general when you take a penalty, you probably deserve it. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:06
  • It is not penalization because some is written that is isn't. Ha! Of course it is to a 30 or 40 rep user, not matter what is written. They could take that easier if they were given a reason and also if there were not so many jumping on the wagon. And by deleting the question they'd lose any chance to get an answer. OTOH I think answerers take DVs easier because they (usually) have been around longer; unless they feel they get molested by some fanatic..
    – TaW
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:13
  • @BoltClock: The downvotes I hate the most are the ones which result from other people telling me my premise is wrong, when in reality they could just go ahead and answer the question trusting me that I know what I'm doing.
    – user541686
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 1:04
  • @user000001 it hurts to be told you are wrong especially when you are actually right and some idiot downvotes you because he thinks you are wrong, however his proof that you are wrong is faulty.
    – Coder-Man
    Commented Jun 24, 2018 at 9:04
70

The fallacy of big numbers plays a role again, a common meta problem. Quantifying it a bit, SO gets over 8000 questions per day and over 10% of them get downvoted. If only 1% of those downvoted questioners would complain on meta we would get 8 raging posts per day. Heaven forbid, we're not even close to that. Reality is that ~99.9% of the downvoted questions do not draw a complaint, surely because the poster knows why his question got downvoted.

Another perspective, a company like BMW gets 36.78 complaints about safety per 100,000 cars sold. If we'd achieve the same statistic on handling questions we would get 20 raging posts per week. BMW take note :)

Not sure it is worth to reason about why such a very small number of users complain. Surely the Christmas Day effect is a factor. Expecting a Lego set but getting ear-warmers instead.

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    @derp Congrats, you're now one of the only people complaining about people complaining about people complaining about downvotes! :P
    – tckmn
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:13
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    Trivia (since I had it handy): in the past 365 days, 3030070 questions have been posted on Stack Overflow, of which 601595 have gotten at least one downvote. Needless to say, that's far greater than every question ever asked on all meta sites combined.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:56
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    20% feels very low, looking at the average quality of questions. Or maybe they always post the good ones when I'm not here :).
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:17
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    @kapa meta.stackoverflow.com/q/258699/2371861
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 0:44
  • @derp I am afraid even to ask what are you complaining about here ...oops did I just complained
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 6:13
  • This isn't Twitter, so just spell the whole world "someone." I thought you were yelling the word "so." Six downvotes for you! Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:04
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    @bjb568 I understand that, but that does not mean that the average quality is higher than what the front page shows. When searching, I run into crap all the time too. Not putting the crap out to the window for everyone to see would be great, and would help the site look better, but we would still have crap everywhere inside.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 22:19
  • @derp Quit complaining about turtles!
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 22:22
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    They can't, because 1 rep is not enough for asking on meta.
    – user202729
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 6:40
  • @user202729 it is is you link to your downvoted question. Commented Aug 28, 2021 at 2:16
53

I think the reason is because everyone wants the pat on the head. Everyone likes a good ole' "Atta-Boy". A downvote says, "I don't agree. No cookie for you."

Now, sometimes I have constructed what I felt was the perfect question. I did my due diligence, I couldn't find an answer and I meticulously word a question that everyone will love. A question so good that songs will be sung about it. And it gets downvoted. And I'm left thinking, "How could anyone possibly find fault here??" And it stings a little, I won't lie.

The last piece of the puzzle is that some people do live and die by points. Either they want them so they can gain privileges, or they need them to avoid a ban. People have been known to "game" points, it's that important to them. And downvotes remove those hard-earned points.

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    This. Especially paragraph 2. I think the biggest problem is one or more downvotes with out any comments even hinting as to what was done wrong. I come here to solve problems and to learn, and a drive-by downvote does neither.
    – techturtle
    Commented Aug 23, 2014 at 6:03
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    you should explain really well why you down voting and your name must associated with the down vote
    – Jlouro
    Commented Aug 23, 2014 at 17:20
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    @Jlouro: (1) People can vote on a post for just about any reason they like (short of fraud or obvious revenge), and SO explicitly supports that. If i could downvote your comment because "really" is overused, for example, would knowing why i did it make the vote sting less, or more? (2) Being told their ideas are wrong makes weird stuff happen in some people's heads. You've never had some nutjob follow you around SO -- or take it outside, emailing you, or even calling you at work! -- to complain about a post you downvoted. I can't support making that more possible by removing anonymity.
    – cHao
    Commented Aug 23, 2014 at 18:16
  • I agree with you, but you must take some responsibility for your down vote, and honestly most of the down votes I recently see in SO should be further explained because they do not make sense, some are even plain arrogant. Personally I dont care, it just makes me see if I can improve the question, or anser, if I see it stupid, I just ignore the vote. I am not here for the Stats, I am here for the help, and I have had a lot here.
    – Jlouro
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 15:23
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    @Jlouro: No, I need not "take responsibility" for any vote i cast. Votes are anonymous, and for a number of good reasons -- not least of which is so that less confrontational people have a say, and can't be bullied into retracting their downvotes. (Yes, it happens. People get attached to their internet points.) And note that it's always the downvotes where people are getting all butthurt and demanding "responsibility" and other such BS. I've never once seen anyone demanding that i account for every time i upvote.
    – cHao
    Commented Sep 5, 2014 at 7:42
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    If there were a way to comment anonymously, i might suggest that people consider explaining their vote. But it'll never be feasible to require it, and i'd be against any system that publicly attached names to votes.
    – cHao
    Commented Sep 5, 2014 at 8:05
  • Yup, this is important: Different people interpret downvotes differently, maybe SO should even communicate it's meaning more. Only considering the people who downvote for reasons other than dont like that profile pic ;) or havin a bad day: There seem to be many people who see a downvote as a this doesn't belong here, while others, like me, see it as a this question is so bad there is no reason it should be here and there is nothing i can do to make it better, while others obviously are on another side of many. That way the feeling you get from a downvote changes dramatically as wel Commented Jun 19, 2022 at 21:26
26

why was my question downvoted?

It is good to note that not all questions that ask this are ranting.

It should not be instantly assumed the person wants a fight but even when the OP/AP asks without wanting a fight it can sometimes come through as looking for one.

Anon downvotes will always draw the most anger. I mean the first thing that will run through a persons mind is: "How can I be wrong,". And when they cannot see their mistake: "No, they must be wrong". Anon downvoting actually increases the anger of an individual in many cases (which I have seen personally).

I regularly ask this question when my answer/question gets downvoted, in fact I always will unless I can spot what's wrong; which if I could why would I post it (duh)?

I ask this question since I wish to learn. If I have a misconception or I have done something wrong I like to know. I personally hate anon downvotes since I have no idea what is wrong, and sometimes that is worse than actually being told you are wrong, especially if you think you are right or the downvoter has a misconception/misread themselves (can and has happened to me).

Sometimes it is as simple as me misunderstanding or misreading at which point when notified about it I can instantly act to delete/edit.

I mean, one of the main points of this site's purpose is to learn from others in a community spirit and sometimes an anon downvote contradicts what some have come to expect when they read about this site and its core values, since with an anon downvote the knowledge remains with the downvoter. It never passes to the community.

So when donvotes fly there can somtimes be anger, even if not intended.

It takes a very experienced and calm person to talk about a downvote on their own question/answer without resorting to "WTF".

As a general thought outside of this meta question: I personally think it is better to ask first and then downvote as a last resort. However, many (not all) downvoters find that annoying and won't bother to impart their knowledge or don't want to get involed in the long and sticky process that comes after which can result in 30 odd comments.

In fact when threads like this devolve into hate you may find it comes from anon downvoters who have posted answes and questions downvoted since they hate those people as they hate themselves for their bad mindset to downvoting. Kind of like wheel of hate really.

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  • Why do you get angry from an anonymous downvote? That's the real question. Why do people take downvotes so personally? That was the OP. This does not seem like an answer to me. I doubt you are so zealous to learn that you get mad whenever a chance is taken from you :).
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:51
  • @kapa Indeed since the question had been answered quite well by user0001 I decidedto addsomething new instead of reiterating his answer since this reply is normally used on anon downvotes
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:51
  • @kapa "I doubt you are so zealous to learn that you get mad whenever a chance is taken from you" what do you mean? If you mean: "I am sure you get mad", hell yeah, in fact I have explained slightly why I can get annoyed, however, I would like to think all my convos about downvotes have been civil however, I can easily see how others would not be
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:57
  • I don't see anything new. You are just reiterating something that appears all the time on Meta whenever the word "downvote" is mentioned somewhere. Yours is one of the three answers here (not to mention the comments) that complain about anonymous downvotes.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:59
  • You admit you get angry from anonymous downvotes. I say it's not because you want to learn so badly, but because your ego got hurt. Don't worry, it's normal.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:01
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    @kapa You are more than free to believe that, I personally think you are seeing something sinister that does not exist, however, that is your choice
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:05
  • I don't get angry when someone I don't know presses a button that does not exist, thus lowering a score that does not exist either. I have no problem with my choice :).
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:11
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    @kapa if the button does not exist howcan it be pressed?
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:13
10

With regards to newcomers in particular, my theory is that Stack Overflow is sometimes mistaken for a social networking site.

One corollary of that is that downvotes are mistaken for "dislikes" which, as a rule, are personal - or at least tend to be accompanied with detailed explanations of just how much you suck.

If you're accustomed to this sort of environment, you may take the reason for a downvote for granted, whether or not any actual explanation is given.

1
  • So essentially Jakob's Law: "Users spend most of their time on other sites. This means that users prefer your site to work the same way as all the other sites they already know."
    – Ocean
    Commented Feb 23, 2022 at 13:06
10

You think you contribute to Stack Overflow (meta, whatever) by posting an answer volunteering information you think a lot of people in the discussion don't have. Then your answer gets downvoted because people disagree with what you say. That feels bad. It doesn't feel like people appreciate the time you put in answering the question.

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    Do you feel bad when someone disagrees with you in a normal conversation? Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:39
  • 2
    @JayBlanchard It's not only disagreement, also "lack of appreciation".
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:41
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    @JayBlanchard, in a normal conversation, people who disagree tend to say why (otherwise people who disagree without any argumentation tend to be considered obnonxious). Downvotes with and those without comments differ a lot in that respect, on SO.
    – Bruno
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:44
  • How do you know that there is a lack of appreciation @BartoszKP? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't appreciate your point of view, question or answer. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:45
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    I would have to say that folks are aware of the environment on SO @Bruno. You're not getting a conversation here, only questions and answers. In normal conversation I have said, "I disagree." and not had to offer any reasoning for it, nor was I considered obnoxious for not offering a reason for disagreement. I suppose that tone of voice would have a lot to do with that. (How meta is it that I just disagreed with you? ;) ) Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:49
  • @JayBlanchard I'm not saying that there is. I only pointed out that your response to Christine's answer doesn't address the diagnosis as a whole so your analogy doesn't fit.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:49
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    How so @BartoszKP? Even in conversation people put time and thought into their responses. If someone else disagrees with them they don't feel bad...it is just disagreement. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:51
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    @JayBlanchard In conversation there is no score next to what you say implying judgement. I'd guess that can be the crucial difference :-)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:53
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    I'll buy that for a dollar @BartoszKP! Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 20:54
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    @JayBlanchard Votes on SO and MSO are different, I was talking about the votes on SO. You were the one trying to make the comparison with a normal conversation (possibly implying that Christine's answer had something to do with her attitude to interactions with others in general, I suppose). From an answerer's point of view, if you've spent time trying to help someone with what you know (or think you know) and you get a downvote without comment, not being told what was wrong can be a bit frustrating, almost worse than being told "bad dog". Everyone can improve, with appropriate feedback.
    – Bruno
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:14
  • 1
    I understand @Bruno and I am talking about SO (and a little bit about MSE). I have gotten downvotes for answers that I have provided - sometimes even when those answers were correct. I have gotten downvoted (and closed) questions. You're right - it is a little frustrating, but I don't take it personally. How could I? Someone clicking a button thousands of miles away doesn't know me and I don't know them. If they said something personally demoralizing in a comment that would be a horse of a different color. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:17
  • I think one of the main things here is that SO is about right/wrong answer, that has mentioned many times, the downvote is a sign of accuracy and correctness not agreement. So I am not totally sure if this answer applies to SO personally
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:48
  • 1
    @Sammaye: Not only right&wrong. There can be many answers which are all correct, but we still value an answer with a story, a nice image, an example and concise but comprehensive rationale much higher than a simple no, or something somewhere in betweeen those two. (The second may even be subject to ultimate rejection: deletion) Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:53
  • @Deduplicator oh yes but if you follow the rules on how to post an answer then are you not downvoting because of preference not correctness/clarity?
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:01
  • 1
    @Sammaye People can downvote by preference if they wish. They can even downvote randomly, until they target a single person, that's not permitted. One downvote is not the end of the world. Do you always ask for an explanation on upvotes too? One could argue you could learn from that too. For some reason, nobody does that :).
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:04
10

I think there is some substitution bias playing here (no, I am not a psychologist but I see a pattern).

When you post a question, you expect to receive some help from the community. Same goes with answers, you want to feel you contribute value - you invested some time to answer after all.

While the purpose of downvotes is to improve your answer and raise quality, people substitute the "I got a downvote; how can I make my question better and improve quality?" with "I got a downvote; community is rude - why are they so mean to me?".

This judgement is wrongly exaggerated when no constructive criticism is given in comments and goes against to what people expected in the first place, either when questioning or providing an answer.

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    It comes down, once again, to a clash of expectations.
    – E_net4
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 19:11
  • It all comes down to Jakob's Law: "Users spend most of their time on other sites. This means that users prefer your site to work the same way as all the other sites they already know." It's not a substitution. What this site does is to subvert people's expectations. If you have a GUI and use the floppy icon as the "delete everything" button people are going to have a bad time. You cannot fight against what people have already learned downvoting means. You cannot assign new meaning to a deeply established convention without friction.
    – Ocean
    Commented Feb 23, 2022 at 13:17
7

Aside from the other answers I think there is still one point not mentioned..for improvement

I don't post on Meta if I get a down vote but I do tend to ask on my answer what the reason for it was. By doing so it gives me a chance to see how I can improve and it gives the OP a better/clearer answer.

I tend to only disagree when I can't see any logical reason for the down vote. (This seems to mostly happen when every answer has a down vote except for one..)

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    "I do tend to ask on my answer what the reason for it was" Please don't do this. It just adds noise to your answer. Everyone who has downvote privileges has commenting privileges. If they wanted to leave a comment, they would have done so. No one needs you to ask them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:43
  • 9
    I agree, it would be great to be able that at least the first person to downvote had to pick a reason for doing so, so as to give feedback to the OP. If anonymity (or the lack thereof) is an issue, the comment can easily be assigned to "Community" or "anonymous" and that's it. Subsequent downvotes would not need select a new reason, though they could if they wished, and downvotes would translates to upvotes on the related "comment reason". Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:44
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    @CodyGray - In an ideal world, I would be inclined to agree with you. I do try to delete my request if feedback appears
    – Sayse
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:45
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    @CodyGray: I understand what you are saying, however as the OP of a post, it is very frustrating to see that someone thinks something is wrong with your post.... but have no idea why. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:45
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    @MatthieuM. That's been discussed and proposed before, and always been shot down as unrealistic. E.g. see meta.stackoverflow.com/a/267453/476 for a longer opinion of mine.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:45
  • @deceze: I know, and yet... Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:46
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    Anonymity isn't the only issue, @Matthieu. The other problem is that it adds significant friction to the voting process, which would make people less likely to [down]-vote. We don't consider that to be a good thing, since both up and down votes are critical to the effectiveness of our post rating system. We seek to encourage votes, not discourage them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:47
  • @Sayse I very often find that the OP comments seconds after I have clicked the downvote button "Why the downvote!?!", while I'm still typing my comment. Some people are a little too anxious.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:47
  • 6
    I'm sympathetic to it being frustrating, but that is life. And especially the Internet. So just move on with your life. Don't clutter up the post with whining about downvotes. You aren't going to get the person who made an intentional decision not to explain their downvote to come back and explain it to you. You're just going to get some other well-meaning person to try and speculate on why someone else downvoted your post. And distract everyone else who reads your post. Please leave this out. If you insist on putting it in, it will be edited out.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:49
  • @deceze - I usually wait 5 minutes+, any longer and there is a chance the downvoter won't be returning. Cody, I don't dwell on it (and I also don't want this answer to be a feature request) but if there is an opportunity for improvement/learning, I'm going to take it. If I don't get a response, fair enough. This answer is also trying to address a reason why people would write a question on meta about a downvote, I would modify it but that would render these comments void.
    – Sayse
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 6:50
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    @deceze - The solution is to make your comment before you downvote.
    – HMcG
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 9:19
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    @HMcG The solution is for everyone to drink a big ol' cup of Calm The Hay Down. :o)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 9:28
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    How about disallowing the first downvote on a sole answer without making a comment? It's not too bad if there's a downvote on one answer when there are other answers that have been well received, but it seems poor form, when there's only been one answer given, to downvote it without saying why. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:30
  • 1
    I used to take downvotes really personally. I often asked for an explanation, and I always thought it's because I want to improve. It's not. People want to argue about it. They want an explanation because then they have someone to explain why their post is in fact good. I admit. Even if they improve their post, they do it for the removal of the downvote. Not for the improvement itself (very rare exceptions might exist, but they would do it even without being downvoted).
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 21:45
  • 1
    @chiastic-security: I suggested that easlier this year and got downvoted and, as I felt, pesonally attacked for it. By now the ratio on that post is almost equal (+52-63); some, I have been told, simply love to downvote..so nothing will be change. At the time I had decided to never ever come to meta again. Well I still am rather reluctant, because is seems like one big waste of time. Enough!
    – TaW
    Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 22:23
6

First, to clairfy, I don't think people take downvotes personally that much. Speaking for myself, I don't appreciate anonymous downvotes because they are counterproductive.

An anonymous downvote basically says: "you asked a bad question and I'm not even going to try to answer it or suggest an improvement." Or, for an answer, "you don't know what you are talking about." Maybe a person did ask a bad question. Maybe an answer is wrong. If a person feels the need to downvote, they could at least give a good reason why.

I think this brings up a more important issue: what is the purpose of a downvote? If it is just to be able to make an anonymous barb, then so be it. But if it is to provide some actual useful feedback for posters and viewers to judge the usefulness of a question or answer, then doing it anonymously is just pissy.

1
  • The whole idea of the gamification of SO is to use community moderation to make the content better. Therefore points matter, whether the person with the points cares that much about them or not. People with huge rep get privileges and are taken more seriously than people with low rep. A down vote is a criticism. You can criticize people constructively (edit, comment) or you can criticize people unconstructively (down vote). When I see something worth saving I try to save it. When I see something not worth saving I vote to close or flag it. I never down vote because it's just plain rude.
    – Joel Brown
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:15
5

I believe that most people who get upset over downvotes are confused about what downvotes mean.

I believe that Stack Overflow does not do a good job conveying its goal to people arriving here via a search engine (aka ~100% of people's first experience with the site).

Stack Overflow's goal is to curate a collection of the most well asked and thoroughly answered questions possible, without any clutter or distraction. It is an excellent resource for that reason.

It also differs in goal from basically every other technical support forum on earth. The goal is to enable research, rather than engage in one-on-one technical support conversations. More "What are the Best Practices or Mathematical Proofs or Evidence-Based Theories surrounding this general question", and less "what do I do in this specific situation?"

Because of its differing goals, it is a cold and difficult experience to engage with naively. Comments aren't allowed as a new user. Follow up questions are discouraged. Discussions in comments are discouraged. Comments are short and un-formattable. Downvotes are completely impenetrable as to "why". It's like rubbing your pet's face in urine and expecting it to stop peeing there. It just sucks and you don't understand why it is happening.

I think if users had a better understanding of what everything means and what the expectations are coming into the site from any other context, they would have a better time.

I think if there was an opportunity for discussion (perhaps an embedded Reddit-style comment tree attached to each question on the sidebar.) then users would have a much better time learning how to ask good questions. It is not hard to explain what Stack Exchange is meant to be. If you explain to people that a downvote means "This question is not up to Stack Exchange standards and needs revision", I think that people will take it much less personally, on average.

If they're not here to use Stack Exchange like it's meant to be used, that's okay, their question will just be lowered down in visibility once it's not "new", which works fine for literally everyone involved. They won't care enough to get angry, and people will still see their question and take a crack at it. If it's a simple question someone will give a quick answer for the fun of it, and if it's a difficult question someone can really dig into it and post/edit a more well structured question and answer that will get a lot of reputation. Win/win/win.

2
4

The only problem I see with downvote is for new users. It's not very welcoming when your first question on this site isn't appreciated at all. Too often, those downvotes are left without any information to let the user know what's wrong. At the end, it might be a user that won't come back to ask question.

For other case, I agree with others answers. It could be hurting knowing your question/answer is not appreciated. After all, we should keep in mind that's only internet point.

4

I didn't read all the answers and comments, but here's my take on this. People actually want the reason for downvoting, at least I do. If I think that my question is well within the rule of SO and then I get downvoted, I need to know why? I don't really care about reputation, what I care is which part of my question is wrong? Have I done something wrong? If yes then what is the right way. I need to know how to frame proper questions so that I don't get a downvote the next time.

People need to post a comment telling why they downvoted a question. The reason should be stated there. That's what the warning ask us to do, as soon as we downvote. I agree that even I do downvote without posting a reason sometimes, since somebody else had posted it already or I am being too lazy. But when I am the OP I need the reason.

I suppose that's the reason people take it personally. Tell me the reason why I am wrong, I want to argue that I am right.

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    I agree with this. In fact, I would suggest that down votes should have a reason the same way as close votes need to have a reason. I understand the rationale for keeping down votes anonymous. However, I think people would be less likely to be upset (or maybe likely to be less upset?) if they actually understood the nature of the criticism that is being leveled at them.
    – Joel Brown
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:29
  • 1
    @JoelBrown: In most cases, the reason for downvoting is blatantly obvious, if one reads the tooltip on the button, takes the tour, reads the help center or looks at already present comments. Yes, it can be vexing not to understand a not explicitly explained downvote, but you do not want to have to explain your upvotes either, and voting - both up and especially down is - is critical for the system to work, so do not hinder it. Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:41
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    Devil's advocate: the warning ask us to "consider" adding a comment "if" we think the post can be improved.
    – brasofilo
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:59
  • @Deduplicator - I disagree that down voting reasons are obvious in most cases. I am rarely, if ever, sure why one of my answers is down voted. Also, with regard to the ease of up voting vs down voting, the system is not built on the premise that down voting and up voting be equally easy. That's why up votes count 10 and down votes count -2 (and -1 for the voter). I would argue that down voting is not at all critical, never mind "especially" critical for the system to work. Voting to close is especially critical, down voting as currently constructed is counter-productive in my view.
    – Joel Brown
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 14:05
  • @JoelBrown: There's a suggestion to make answer-downvotes free as well, because that one negative point stings, and many are too sensitive. Also, the reputation-effect on the post-author is not skewed because down-votes are less important or too easy, but because presumably the poster will learn. Next, how do you get a consistent abuser of SO banned if you reject downvotes as "not happy-making"? The main purpose of votes is quality-control: Making the good stuff float to the top and pushing the bad stuff to oblivion, as well as removing those who are net-negative contributors. Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 14:10
  • @Deduplicator - I'm not suggesting that we reject down votes. I'm suggesting that they need to be made more constructive. If down votes were only applied for "this is wrong" or "this is shoddy" then that would be fine. But down votes can just as easily be applied for "I'd do it another way" which is not a valid criticism. If you'd do it another way, then write that as an answer and let people vote on it, don't drive-by down vote.
    – Joel Brown
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 14:22
  • I agree with Joel on this. Downvotes doesn't always have an obvious reason. I don't consider myself as a SO pro, but I still get downvotes on questions and answers despite spending more than 2 years here. And most of the times it's not obvious at all. I had to ask in comments why it got downvoted, then someone explains and I correct the mistake or remove the post completely. I'd vote for a feature which let us give reasons for downvotes, just like the close vote, without adding a comment on the post. Just so the OP knows where she's wrong. Better make it compulsory and remove the -1 penalty.
    – 0xC0DED00D
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 15:52
-8

It's certainly not about the rep; it wouldn't make any difference to me if there wasn't any rep loss whatsoever.

Sometimes I take them personally, sometimes I don't. It depends on the context.

For example: some types of downvotes that drive me nuts include:

In general the downvotes I hate the most are the ones are the ones that scream YOU'RE WRONG when in reality people are downvoting because they prefer to dodge the question and instead answer a different question (for example, here).

And sometimes people downvote my answers because they don't like them (e.g. because I'm encouraging something they think is a "bad" practice), when they prefer answers that don't actually answer the question (because they think they know better and the OP should take a different approach). I find these downvotes pretty annoying because they discourage people from finding out the answers to their questions and instead serve as a means to tell people that the downvoter knows better than them.

I don't mind being told I'm wrong when someone can actually show me why I'm wrong, but I do mind it when people just have no evidence or they're outright answering a different question entirely.

4
  • @Deduplicator: Best practices are slightly different from what I'm talking about. The type of scenario I'm talking about is when, for example, I suggest the user of an undocumented API, and people then downvote me because The Right Thing in Their Opinion is to avoid undocumented APIs, when in reality they don't know of a better alternative or when in reality their alternative has caveats that mine doesn't have (e.g. it isn't available on the current platform). It's extremely frustrating because it's not a matter of best practice, it's a matter of getting the job done.
    – user541686
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 1:11
  • 5
    bad practice: Yes. This is very annoying. It happens to me too often that I give a nuanced answer to a complex situation and some rookie ideologue armed with his rules of thumb comes along and tells me that I'm wrong because I'm not following "the rules", regardless of the fact that they themselves don't understand why those rules were put in place.
    – Joel Brown
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:24
  • 1
    I am confused by your examples. In regards to nitpicking, you accuse the user of nitpicking, but they are commenting that your example did not work. That's a pretty big nit. In regards to "bandwagon votes because they think it is obvious", yes. I would agree that "you can not divide by zero" is pretty obvious. A quick google of the reported error tells me this, so in this case, I would/have voted for "shows no research effort", which is pretty accurate. In regards to "self answered questions meant to help other people", your answer clearly states that you forgot something.
    – Gnemlock
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 7:04
  • In regards to the later, you should consider how you phrase such answers. I immediately assumed that you posted the question, and soon after found the seemingly small mistake. Then I looked at the time stamps. Not many people would consider looking at the time stamps, too which it is clear the answer was posted along with the question. In general, it looks like another case of "shows no research". I would phrase such questions without any form of implication that you arrived at the solution after the question.
    – Gnemlock
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 7:06
-11

One has to sign-in to participate to Stack Overflow, and then he or she has a nice profile page, with an About description, and perhaps a pretty picture. Also cool badges. And, clearly the most important part, a reputation. Those points, while imaginary, denote effort in writing questions and answers and are real, because they mean time, concentration and passion.

So it is undeniable that Stack Overflow has a human meaning for posters.

As many in the comments have well expressed, it is annoying, depressing or demotivating when one spends time to write a question or an answer and gets welcomed by a cold reply, that superficially could mean "I don't like your post, and possibly others will not as well", but on the poster side, it could mean "My effort, time and passion just don't have value for the people I am seeing as experts and to whom I am asking for help", or in other words "I am not valuable as a member of the largest Internet programmers community". (This applies mostly to downvotes without declared reasons, i.e., anonymous.)

Since the OP question is mainly psychological, consider this: a small child has no value for their own family. They are just a "sink", they "drain" resources from their parents, sisters and brothers. However, in any sane family, they are not seen as a weight. Now, the child goes to their parent and says "look at what I have built", or "I have a serious problem", and imagine the parent answering: "it sucks" or "you are just a child".

While it is true, that Stack Overflow is for adults, psychologically we are also children. If not, we would never joke with co-workers, never get frustrated, bored, etc... always knowing the right answers and questions, and when not, admitting it for the good of others.

So, if (at least one) people (sometimes!) feel hurt by the system of Stack Overflow, there may very well be a reason. The answer should not be "take it or leave it", if it is true that the system is made for all. Some people are more sensible than others, some more insecure, some people may come to Stack Overflow because they have an urgent problem or a problem they have spent days solving it without success, some may just seek a word of advice from good programmers from a very well renowned Internet website...

Upvotes may flatter, no-votes may leave things are they are, and downvotes may give some minor or not so minor pain.

So I do not understand why they are there. Algorithmically, they may give better results, but humanly they are not optimal. But, is Stack Overflow for machines or for humans?

In Stack Overflow, other than technical research there are underlying human values and interactions.

Anyone seeing their values betrayed gets annoyed or depressed by the interaction with other people through the website. I am not saying to give sugar for everything one does, but I am saying that algorithms and rules may kill the human relations if one is too rigid about them, and a website or software is rigid by nature. So rules should be minimal and acceptable by all, under the majority of circumstances.

What harm would do if downvotes were prohibited? Just upvote interesting posts and ignore the ones you do not like. Are out there really so few readers of Stack Overflow so that just upvotes are not enough to push up interesting questions and answers?

About "giving a signal to posters", votes alone are not a satisfying mean to "give a signal", as many say in the comments. Really, does a voter care about the person on the other side? They have not even seen the other, do not even know if they hate or love what the other loves or hates, nor do they know to what degree the questioner has need for an answer to their -- even vague but perhaps important -- problem. Truth is that one votes up or down based on personal tastes, ideas and beliefs. The voter cannot really care about the other, because the other is just a name and a pure product of thought on Internet forums. Even though it is true that the voter cares, when a child learns from an adult, they learn because they trust the adult, not because the majority of adult people give "correct" downvotes and upvotes. A child is not an AI that learns with punishments and rewards, they have feelings. So we are too, and a comment of 100 characters would be exponentially better than "a signal". As well, a dialog, where the poster and the voter talk to each other, would be even better.

Back to the initial observation, if Stack Overflow refrained from having a profile and a reputation for its users for giving them human (intangible) rewards and, just for example, limited itself on counting points on (anonymous) questions and answers, clearly the problem of being down-voted would not have been felt so much. One may say that a user profile motivates people to do better, but be aware that applying rules for one's own happiness without caring about the happiness of others, may be spelled as "gaming, manipulating, and using others", even if the end result is a "better product for humanity". Note, indeed, that if a great part of the population would be exterminated, much of the world problems would be resolved: overpopulation, poverty, pollution, ... A game is cool if everyone has fun playing in it. It is very important to respect all others.

Finally, note that readers volunteering to review posts do not get paid, but also authors of questions and answers are not paid. To me, it is a minor satisfaction that downvoters (just of answers) lose reputation. What is the gain? We both lost reputation.

So to answer the OP question, the problem rises because of a confusion of the identity of Stack Overflow. In part, it is a social Q&A website where you always find answers to your questions. In part, it is a game, with strict rules, so when you have a question or want to share an answer, you must be very careful. If the second part is more prevalent, wouldn't it be better to build a moderated wiki like PlanetMath? Or, just have a higher barrier to entry to post questions and answers, so that one is not misguided: when participating, one is working for the site, not asking questions or answering for himself/herself, i.e., the platform is not neutral.

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    meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/405699/…
    – E_net4
    Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 18:23
  • 1
    Just upvote interesting posts and ignore the ones you do not like. The issue with this is signal to noise ratio. It is an intensely frustrating experience, to find the 1 post that you do want to engage with, among the 10 that are good but have already had everything covered, and hundreds and thousands of posts that are unclear or unanswerable. Or to search hundreds of misleading answers to find the one that actually answers your question. That is why we have moderation. The emotional effort of the answerer and the reader. Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 18:32
  • 2
    Yes one votes up on taste. But if the taste of the individuals in the group on average trends together, then the votes are likely to be similar to the taste of the reader, and they can e used as a signal that approximates likelyhood. Its not perfect, but its a lot better than random. Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 18:39
  • 4
    There is lots of garbage posted on a daily basis. Ignore garbage input because someone's feelings might be affected? How else should this garbage be handled then? Completely ignoring it does the whole community a disservice
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 18:48
  • I have a personal bias against authorities (and systems) in general, therefore I find E_net4thecurator and @user1937198 comments valuable: the current state of affair is like so, because nothing better has been found yet. However, the next question is: have the, surely many, alternatives to the current voting system been researched? A fantasy example: "only upvotes, weighted by reputation, possibly recursive weights like PageRank". Do SO designers and supporters base their beliefs on scientific research on the subject? SO has tons of data, alternative systems could be "simulated" with it. Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 19:53
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    Only upvotes is logically a bad idea, because it is incapable of differentiating bad (or even incorrect and dangerous) content from "meh" posts or posts which haven't received much attention.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 20:29
  • And rest assured that the folks at Stack Overflow do look into data and they do research on voting. stackoverflow.blog/2020/07/23/…
    – E_net4
    Commented Jan 8, 2022 at 20:42
  • 1
    One important thing to think about how stackoverflow is who it was designed for. Stackoverflow system is based around the relative scale of the various groups. It assumes that there are far more seekers of information than there are those who can provide it. As such redundancies in the information transfer (duplicates), must be eliminated as that increases the amount of seekers satisfied for the same load on providers. Commented Jan 9, 2022 at 3:39
  • This assumption that there is more demand than supply is is viewed as indicating seeking must be prioritized to maximise exposure of those questions that can be most efficiently answered, and are not going to put off the providers, again to maximise transfer. Commented Jan 9, 2022 at 3:39
  • @E_net4thecurator If I am correct, they just did a survey with 1400 responses: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/406791/… They did not analyze valid alternatives. user1937198 I understand that there is a reason for downvotes, but I still not believe it is the best system out of all possible systems. It works, and some losses are tolerable, but 1. only after reading here on meta I understand the "game" of Stack Overflow, i.e. it is not a simple Q&A site, 2. some valid alternative could be nicer to play Commented Jan 9, 2022 at 9:11
  • 1
    If you think there is a better alternative suggest it, I'd love to hear it. But saying they are bad on there own without a suggestion of an alternative way of solving those issues, is implied to be a comparison against a system that is just upvotes. So far stackoverflow's is the best system to stick for a large (>10k people) community in the last 3-4 decades. And just saying AI and ML will solve it isn't an answer (SO's meta community knows enough to see through that hype). The higher barrier to entry has been discussed before multiple times, and is generally argued as being elitist. Commented Jan 9, 2022 at 21:09
  • There is indeed a lot that could be changed or done (e.g., with the heaps of data as you mention), but any significant innovation would have to come from another company or organisation. We are already at two times 6-8 years. For instance, the learning part and the beginners part are obvious. Some challenges are handling Eternal September properly and avoid meta talk and meta information creeping in everywhere (like "Asked 7 years, 4 months ago. Active today. Viewed 5k times" at the top of this page). Commented Jan 10, 2022 at 1:56
  • cont' - For example, as beginners tend to ask the exact same questions, why couldn't there be an AI bot they could converse with in the beginning (without any of artefact surfacing at the public Internet, unless it is of very high quality or interest)? (Though it needs to have much higher IQ than the moderation bots on Quora that have effectively destroyed Quora.) Or a less ego-driven Stack Overflow, with more collaboration in answering. E.g., a group of, say, 5 people used to work well together on Stack Overflow could write some awesome answers, with a lower regard to reputation points. Commented Jan 10, 2022 at 2:11
  • @user1937198 I don't have a solution, I am answering to OP about why people get it personally, and highlighting that is not because they lack intelligence or sense of community. PageRank is not an AI/ML algorithm. The idea is: if I am voted by a person who got in the past votes, from people who got votes, etc... then my vote is better than a vote taken from a newcomer person. Perhaps votes should meaningful when restricted to the tags of the question: if you are not strong in a tag, your votes there count less. Note though, my proposed ideas are just for the sake of discussion. Commented Jan 10, 2022 at 6:20
-16

Posters do not get upset at the downvote but rather the bad product. Posters come to SO expecting to have their problem resolved. Instead they find a community trying to resolve their question: question too vague, question too specific, question lacks MWE, question poorly formatted, question not well researched, question context lacking...imagine if you went to the doctor and said you are having pain and the doctor mockingly asked you "but how does it hurt, have you even googled these symptoms? Did you try to let it get better or did you just rush to see me? I bet this happened only once you hypochondriac.

Add to this the fact that (1) the SO community is incredibly terse to the point of coming across as a German engineer and (2) the SO community will stubbornly deny being terse, and you got yourself one unhappy downvoted poster.

I find it absolutely astounding that so many people hate the downvoted feature yet it has not been removed yet. Just have an upvote and then normalize the scores

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    If you go to a doctor, just say "it hurts" and don't explain where it hurts or how the pain feels, then I would expect the doctor to tell you that it is impossible to diagnose your disease. If SO would be a conversation (or a forum), then I would expect the doctor to ask for more details. But SO is a Q&A site, not a forum. It is expected by askers that they ask a question that can be answered without a long back-and-forth in comments. Also note, that SO is not about one's specific problem. It is about describing problems and solutions in a way that it helps lots of people.
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 8:07
  • @bdl but the doctor would politely ask you to explain the problem. I read an answer on here today that started with "have your read this question (linked)?" The professional way would be to rephrase the question then link to it
    – puk
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:05
  • 1
    @puk: If this really was an answer (and not a comment), then it should have never been posted. Always keep in mind that on SO it is never about your problem, it is always about creating a repository of good answers and questions. There is no point in rephrasing other answers. (If the other answer solves your problem it is even better to close your question as a duplicate).
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 9, 2018 at 16:14
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    @BDL I think SO is caught between a romantic dream (wanting to create a repository of good answers and questions, as you put it) and reality (having to solve poster's problems to ensure a large community). It is the large community, principally, that keeps people coming back and having their questions answered quickly. Without questions being answered, this would turn into a static database
    – puk
    Commented Mar 10, 2018 at 3:09
  • 3
    How many doctors work for free? Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 19:46

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