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I've just cleared the First Posts review queue. Only one of the questions I could assess did not merit a vote-to-close or a VLQ flag. How "welcome" do you suppose those newcomers feel?

We already know that a sizeable fraction of new users perceive down-votes and votes-to-close as unwelcoming. Jaydles in his infamous "welcoming" blog specifically referred to them. If 90% of them take it in their stride and improve, what about the remaining 10%? And if only 1% of new users who get a VTC or VLQ flag post a critical tweet, how worried will SE be that we are not welcoming enough?

There is an infamous "alt-right" site named Breitbart. I'm very left wing. But I've never felt unwelcome on one of its associated fora or websites. Yes, never. Why? Because I've never gone there. I already know that if I was to honestly start posting on one of those fora, I would be picking a fight, and I've decided to leave fighting that kind of vile-and-stupid to others.

Feeling unwelcome is an emotional response, not an intellectual assessment of a theoretical. I do not, and have never had, an emotion of rejection as a result of interaction with Breitbart. It really is accurate to say that it has not made me feel unwelcome.

Breitbart's "reputation" precedes it. But imagine it did not. Imagine I'd heard it was a something like an SE politics site and started making left-wing slanted posts. The fire-hose of abuse and overwhelmingly right-wing replies would certainly make me feel unwelcome.

[Yes, I know, some SE posts have been unwelcoming. Some even going so far as to be racist or sexist. I still do not believe that the small fraction of bad content on SO can explain the perception that SO is particularly unwelcoming].

Is the problem with people complaining about SO being unwelcoming mostly due to many programmers being aware of SO, even if they do not use it, but most of them misunderstanding what SO is about, so when they post their vague off-topic questions, they get a rude shock?

Could the perception that SO is unwelcoming be improved by better communicating to those who do not (yet) use it what SO is? So if/when they use it, they have a better idea of what our expectations are.

That is, manage their expectations, by being off-putting to the lazy, unenthusiastic and unprofessional? Even before they try to ask their first question? I think it might be too late at the point when they click on the "Ask Question" button, even if that actually takes them to a tutorial or test. At that point they want an answer to their question, and attempts at educating them (as has been pointed out many times) will been treated as annoyances to be clicked through with minimum attention.

I'm not really suggesting we need more technical measures (although they might help) to educate them in what is expected of them. I'm suggesting more about messages, signage and (dare I say it) marketing. Consider the SO homepage that a new user lands on at https://stackoverflow.com/. Near the top it says "Top Questions" and has the "Ask Question" button. There is no indication at all that SO is a site for professional and enthusiast programmers. None that it is unsuitable for novices who are learning to program. It appears that any question about programming should be acceptable.

Managing expectations would have a benefit in addition to reducing the number of new users who feel unwelcome. It would take the sting out of unfair criticisms made of SO in other fora. Imagine someone were to tweet "I'm unhappy that SO caters only for enthusiast and professional programmers, because I want it to cater to lazy beginners like myself". How much sympathy would they get?

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    Outsider's perspective: I love SO. I always find myself coming back whenever I run into a problem because it's almost guaranteed that I'll find a solution to my problem based on the wealth of knowledge here. The catch is that in order for a good answer to exist, a good question must exist first. I understand the push to make new users feel welcome but I don't agree that it is more important than being blunt about what's a good question and what is not in order to maintain quality. If new users can't get over the fact that they got downvoted, well, they need life lessons... not SO lessons.
    – I haz kode
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 14:16
  • 28
    I think a core problem that it is just not very obvious where else they could go to get help. An unfortunate side-effect of SO's early success is that it pretty effectively killed off forum support. The hordes released by the first [welcoming] campaign in 2012 and the removal of effective moderation tools in 2013 did in turn kill SO. . Users will find an alternative, eventually, maybe there's a bright future ahead for forums and mailing lists again. Not sure if that is not already happening, I don't visit Breitbart either. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 14:26
  • 50
    I don't think it's in SE's mandate to cater to every single audience. If you need to learn how to program, the process is not conducive to the QA format, so it doesn't really fall in the scope. It needs far too much back and forth, trial and error to achieve that basic knowledge. We can build on it from there, but providing that base needs to happen elsewhere.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 14:38
  • 9
    I believe SE is making efforts in this direction, like the perpetually-pending “ask a question wizard”. I also am a little cynical about when or even if we’ll ever see it. SO has painted itself into a corner. As a business, they need new users to grow, but the vast majority of potential users can’t live up to the standards you observe in this post. They have a dilemma: growth and sustainability, or quality and reputation? Yahoo Answers! or death?
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 14:55
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    @HansPassant I suggest we send them to AskQuestions.Tech, the self-proclaimed inclusive tech community to ask and answer technical questions.
    – user247702
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 14:57
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    @Houseman but isn't the case of you feeling unwelcomed on you? Meaning, the reason you don't feel welcome is because you don't have the knowledge / aren't a professional server administrator so surely if you want to feel welcomed, you should well... become one? To put it another way, let's say I'm having a party and I've invited a bunch of friends and you (a complete stranger) happen to walk past and want to join in, if I say 'Sorry, only people who are invited or at the very least know me are invited.' am I now in danger of being unwelcoming?
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 15:41
  • 20
    @Raedwald 'Some even going so far as to be racist or sexist.' - In my 5 years and 7 months on this site, I've still yet to come across a racist or sexist post. Are you just repeating the claims or have you actually come across any? If so, how frequently do you come across them?
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 17:46
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    @isaace considering votes are supposed to help other users decide which content is valuable and which isn't.... why would they ever not be public?
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:47
  • 39
    @isaace Sure, downvotes make people feel unwelcome. You know what makes me feel unwelcome? No effort questions from users who treat us as a help desk, without making any effort to try to solve their own problems, telling us to shut up and just answer their question. It's all a matter of perspective.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:01
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    @isaace no... the very site is making these changes and asking us to change our ways, implying that a lot of what we used to do is "unwelcoming" and "not nice". That is the site very clearly telling us our actions aren't helpful anymore. We aren't welcome in our own community anymore. Stack would prefer all inclusiveness and niceness from everyone present, without regards for quality.
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:07
  • 29
    @isaace nah, it's a bit more complex than that. We disagree about the current stance of "welcoming" vs "unwelcoming". But SO made it clear they will not listen and just go ahead and steamroll changes. I am all for being welcoming, don't get me wrong. In the right way. So are most of the veteran users. There is definitely a dichotomy between veterans and non-veterans that shows. The veteran's aren't saying "we don't want to be welcoming". The veterans are saying "we are as welcoming as we've always been. What gives?"
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:12
  • 17
    @exceed - you have a total of 2 out of 21 posts with 3 total DVs so unless you had another account, you never got many DVs - and the 2 with DVs looked deserved as OT. If 3 DVs on 2 posts is cruelty, perhaps I could introduce you to April W's site? Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:58
  • 12
    Let's see. 'I think stackoverflow is by far the least welcoming site I have ever been to.' and what makes so "unwelcoming" can you give some experiences and if possible posts of yours which attracted these people? 'People seems very arrogant', again, can we have some examples? From my experiences trying to enforce rules is classed as being arrogant. 'in order to avoid being harassed', If you have ever been harassed on the site, report it to the mods and they'll deal with it, swiftly. 'i dont need to be told how stupid i am', once again, report and it will be dealt with... 1/2
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:11
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    don't bury your head in the sand (by not doing anything to report the responsible party) and expect to change to occur. 'but as a beginner its like a complete bully website', once again, a site enforcing its rules is not bullying. In fact, it is quite telling on the asker when they refuse to acknowledge issues with themselves and point the blame elsewhere, always. Like I mentioned earlier, people keep repeating this stuff, but that doesn't prove a single thing, bring some evidence to the table. Help us help you make the community even better.
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:13
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    @TylerH "this post is a little puzzling as we have seen many efforts over recent months". I've seen efforts directed at the problem of "being unwelcoming", but not at managing expectations before someone tries to ask a question.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 0:15

10 Answers 10

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I do think we need to manage expectations.

We are, at the core, a site where we use the basics of the English language to communicate solutions to programming problems. Anybody who can do that should be welcomed, because that is the nice thing to do.

I do believe that the "enthusiast" part is due to the fact that nobody really cares if someone here gets money for applying the solution. We don't care what a persons day job is (or gender, skin color, income, shoe size or any other variable that's not useful to the above goal of solving programming problems).

It appears to me that people understand the "enthusiast" part to mean everybody should feel welcome here. Whether they can use the English language to communicate programming problems or not.

And quite frankly, I don't want to welcome anybody who is not able to do so. If someone cannot even use the browsers free, inbuilt spellchecker or cannot ask a coherent question or does not answer but instead tells their life story... great. But why here? They can go start a blog and write whatever they want. I will not stop them. But this site was not built for that and I wonder why I should be welcoming anybody not caring for the rules.

It's like a bar. They should be welcoming to any customer. But if a drunk stumbles in and pukes on the floor, nobody would expect the staff to be "welcoming".

When I joined, I read the rules. The tour. I tried to get it right. I made a few minor mistakes. I looked at how others behaved and corrected those mistakes. That is how you integrate with a community.

I'm not sure why those things aren't taught any more.

I do teach my apprentices how to move in professional communities. That this isn't Facebook. That this isn't the place to talk smack or be rude to people, especially not if you are the one who needs help. That you need to present your case the best case possible, do your own homework before you ask for help.

So yes, we need to manage expectations. But new developers don't magically appear (although I'm sure SE would love that). Somebody teaches them. So we need to make sure that whoever teaches programming, also teaches how to move around and behave yourself in professional communities like ours.

If you are lucky, you have a responsible friend, who will keep you from stumbling into that bar totally drunk. We need to be that friend. We need to show people how to behave before they puke on the floor.

So every time we see someone in the office call SO "unfriendly" we should call them out and offer to show them how to work it out. Every time we have an intern or apprentice, we should teach them how to find help here, instead of just rolling our eyes saying "oh come on just google it". Every time a friend asks for programming help, we should take them by the hand and teach them how to use SO instead of just sending them a link over IM.

The world is not only bits and bytes. I agree we should be welcoming, but not here. If it's on here, it's too late. Here, the puke is on the floor, we need a cleanup crew, not a responsible friend.

We need to be better at helping before people get downvoted here. In meatspace. Where it counts.

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    Would it be safe to surmise your last point as, "By the time they get downvoted here, it's too late." ?
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:05
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    Basically, yes. Their expectation is set and we cannot cater to it and keep this site's quality. There is no welcoming way to say "you failed". We need to go out and make sure they don't fail in the first place.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:07
  • 2
    @nvoigt fully agree with you... that's where our philosophy of "it's against the post, not the poster" is hurting us, I feel. The veterans here are detached from their posts and they know what it means. The newbies cannot have such a detachment at first (and saying "they should"... well doesn't change squat).
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:08
  • 9
    @Patrice Indeed, I think this is something to learn too, because it's not obvious or intuitive. After all, the account (aka the person) is docked points and maybe loses privileges when we downvote a post. So saying "it's only the post" is simply not true. People don't understand that because it's so obviously wrong, it always affects the account. It takes a reasonable self-confidence (boosted by enough internet points to spare) to say "oh a downvote, I don't care that my account lost points, I will take that as a signal to improve".
    – nvoigt
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:27
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    @nvoigt Most people who are upset about downvotes aren't upset about the points. Most of them are brand new accounts that aren't even losing any points when they're downvoted (because they have none to lose), and because they aren't here to get points, they're here to get an answer to their question. They're upset because someone telling them that their question is problematic isn't (in their mind) helping them get an answer. They're not used to having an expectation of a high quality question and people telling them when their question isn't good enough. Most places don't do that.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:40
  • 13
    @Servy I don't disagree. I'm just saying they are not open to the "it's about the post, not the poster" argument, because it does not resonate with their reality. If one has only one question, the account is the post.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:56
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    "I'm not sure why those things aren't taught any more." I think you're going to need to explain this a little more. Was there actually a time when professors gave more instructions than "if you have any problems coding you can ask on StackExchange" or are you talking about something else? (No really, this is essentially what I was told in my one class, with no further instructions, leaving me with the temptation to ask coding questions on the cooking site.)
    – Laurel
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:56
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    @Laurel Well, maybe I'm old, but when I was a kid, a teacher would drag us to the local library and show us how the indexing system worked. How to find books. How to read and cross reference books. To keep to the rules because if silence is demanded and you get loud you will be escorted out. To me it seems students today did not get taught how the internet works. They were supposed to figure it out on their own. And we see the results here. Some make it, some don't. But "some make it, some don't" is not how you teach people. That's a horrible guideline.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:22
  • @nvoigt Yeah I was taught about how to use the library and also basic computer things like very basic search skills and the fact that you should never ever give out any personal information online. I was also taught how to do basic debugging in programming classes. But none of this explicitly covered etiquette for asking questions online.
    – Laurel
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:46
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    The puking barfly analogy is spot-on. It seems to me that SO corporate has confused "welcoming everybody" with "welcoming everybody's content" which is exactly what SO was not supposed to be. We judge content, not people, but the corollary is that people who only produce crap content are not welcome here.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 2:34
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    @Laurel If you ever see that professor again, please punch them in the face. When they ask you why, tell them to post the question on Stack Exchange.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 10:06
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    Great answer, nvoigt! Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:56
  • Just a side note on "But new developers don't magically appear (although I'm sure SE would love that). Somebody teaches them." My interest in programming just magically appeared because I wanted to learn it myself. I just googled stuff. I had no mentors or anything. So while that might apply for many, some of us are just random people looking for knowledge on our own. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:55
41

I completely agree with the premise of the question, but after a myriad of Q&A following the blog post and the be (even) nice(r) initiative, my current understanding is:

  1. 99%ish of people using SO just read answers that are useful for them and love the site. They have no idea about the flame-anti-SO war going on (basically a few bloggers who do not like the site). They do not care, and shouldn't - they are the masses this site aims to serve (this is my opinion).

  2. Of those who bother to actually participate actively by asking, 99.99999%ish are first timers or almost that, without the very important understanding that writing a question is an important job that comes with big responsibility, with often more work needed to be done on creating the question than answering it. I think this is the typical feeling more experienced users have about questions and their askers

  3. The most important part - after reading some SO history as well, I am no longer sure SE management agrees with SO veterans on point 2. I may be wrong, but at least that is the feeling I get from all these posts. Even if this is not true, I think in any case many experienced users feel this may be the case, and as someone mentioned, there is no arguing with generalized, non-backed-up claims like that.

Thinking about a solution to your specific question, I wonder if a new user coming to ask a question and sees:

Welcome to SO. Questions here are expected to be very high quality and within parameters listed in the help section. This often entails much more work than new users expect. Questions must be researched thoroughly, carefully worded, and clear. If you have the slightest doubt your question is of this quality, reconsider your post until you are better prepared.

would feel welcome? Even if not, and we do manage to stop a lot of the low quality questions, should we care? Users and management may differ on the answer. There is also the issue of people with good questions - are we sure enough of these do not get frightened by such a message? I am for it, but it will require some beta-testing in my opinion.

Addendum

As some of the experienced people mention in the comments, another realization of many is that

  1. Those 99.999%ish new users will ignore all text thrown at them.

Perhaps there is no hope, without drastic measures.

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    If people do get frightened by the amount of effort they have to put in to contribute to the site...I'm not seeing a downside. Stack Overflow has volumes more questions and traffic than most every other site out there. Slowing that down isn't the worst thing in the world.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:16
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    @Makoto could not agree more. I wish I felt SE agreed.
    – kabanus
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:17
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    Honestly, I truly don't believe that these messages to new beginners will help whatsoever and let me explain why. SO's ethos was about collating quality content and having it one place but for those new users that is not what SO is about. For them, SO is about getting their problem solved (which incidentally is a purpose but not the purpose). So when their low quality / broad / opinionated question gets closed, down-voted and they directed the tour or the How to Ask guide, they get the false impression and take it personally that the site isn't working as intended due a group of toxic users.
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:24
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    If providing an error log, explaining your question coherently and including relevant code for free help is too much to ask, then that in itself speaks volumes about the people asking the questions.
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:30
  • 2
    @Script47 I have enough faith in humanity that at least a few of those you describe will pause on such a message, and reconsider. You could of course, make it harsher. Not sure if SE would want this at all though, so the discussion may be moot.
    – kabanus
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:32
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    For sure, SE does nothing to prepare new users to use the site. Help and How to ask dont mention the most common cause for DVs. So shame on SE. Double shame that someone had to develop a site (IDownVoatedBecau.se) with does a much better job of things. However, the vast majority of new users dont read anything anyway (no Informed badge) so there are faults across the spectrum Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:32
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    "They" (the Diamondbacks at SE) claim to not want to inhibit access by imposing requirements. But then, you cant be surprised when strangers come in and take a dump on the floor. You also cant be surprised when other users are irritated at the smell and general decay. Seems that allowing new users access for the first 3 questions or maybe just 3 DVs (net) then you have to read an Improved How to Ask would be a decent middle ground. More users might understand about editing posts, voting and so forth. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:44
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    @kabanus That's what the question/answer ban does; gives the user a warning that their content has not been received well, and that they're in danger of being banned. Wanna know how many actually take that to heart? The answer is unfortunately few. We don't hear about it until they hit the ban, and then it's the fault of the system for preventing them from stinking up the place more.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:50
  • 3
    I would rather gargle with broken glass than answer another question on SO. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:55
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    You almost got there, but it is also important to note that the people that actually care about quality on SO make up 0.000000000000000000000000001% of the userbase, so Stack Exchange does not value them or their opinions very highly.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 22:00
  • 2
    @kabanus Pessimist, or realist?
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 22:01
  • 2
    Part of it. a big part, seems to fall to the generation coming of age. When you get awards and trophies just for showing up, it can come as a surprise to them that in many cases you may have to spend some effort just in order not to fail. So, they post a no effort, no research "I just want a code that..." type post and it gets DVed and closed. They think that SO is cruel and mean. The real moral to the story is with no effort, you will fall on the wrong side of the bell curve. Dont even try to explain that SO is here to help everyone not just them. "But I need help!" Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 0:29
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    @Steve You seem to be taking things personally. The vets want the site to remain what it always was - the #1 go to resource for most of the programming world. To make that happen asking a question must entail a level of expertise that is high - I meant what I said, asking is harder than answering. Try to remember those vets you are malign against are the ones answering nearly everything, and are the reason people even bother asking here.
    – kabanus
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:00
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    @Steve Also, to be clear, management likely has to thank these people for every dollar they make. I started contributing barely two years ago, but the vets here built this giant trove of knowledge. I really cannot justify anyone speaking of them in anyway but a thankful manner.
    – kabanus
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:05
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    @Steve You miss the point - they are building a knowledgebase. You are coming here expecting tutoring. They built the site years before you came - why should they change for you?
    – kabanus
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:07
39

This sounds good.

So...time to ask the $1,000,000 question.

What are we really expecting?


The problem that I see is that what we think is "acceptable" on the site stems from the base principles:

  • Your question must be clearly worded
  • Your question must be related to programming, or tools used by programmers such as IDEs
  • If your question is about an error, it should include the code used to generate that error
  • If you're asking about a design pattern or algorithm, you should be as descriptive as possible and code is not necessarily required

...but then you see questions which appear to be entirely too broad treated as the norm.

Don't get me started on duplicates and poor questions. The expectation for a question which is a dupe is for it to remain as a dupe. We can be expected to delete questions which aren't serving as "good signposts", although that too is subjective and depends on which reviewer you get that day.

Before we can do anything about setting expectations for others, we have to set the expectations for ourselves here. There's way too much in the way of hidden rules and tribal knowledge that we simply learn and divine through many, many hours on Meta that can't readily be translated for anyone else.

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    Which "we" are you specifically talking about? "We, the (moderately or otherwise) concerned users? "We, the Stack Overflow investors"? "We who just want ur valuable halp - URGENT)"?
    – Jongware
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:44
  • 2
    @usr2564301: If you can read this message, it is safe to assume the first.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:40
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    "Tribal knowledge", I like that. Word around the campfire is that it is also very hard to manage expectations for people who are rushing towards clicking that "ask question" button :) You can't show the way to those who's feet are like the wind and eyes are like the hawk.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 12:04
  • Suppose I am a beginner, and non-professional programmer. I use JavaScript (consider this issue: stackoverflow.com/questions/75643430/… ) and Python only to draw graphs for my scientific work, without even scratching the surface of programming. So, are my questions for this site (first question)? And, second, If they are, and If I am not allowed to post them, because I had previously was stupid enough to ask a more stupid question, were am I supposed to ask? Commented Feb 5 at 7:12
  • So, is the saying: "There isn't stupid question" not applicable here? I'm not talking about the clear offenders and trolls. However, when my question, as a beginner is not so "on the point", because of a basic misunderstanding, I think the best way to help this person is to understand his question, and direct him to a place, were he is more likely to be answered, instead of blocking him and decreasing his reputation. Even without Stackoverflow, I still can feel the programming community is too unwelcoming for amateurs. And this was supposed to be one of the best such Q&A site. Commented Feb 5 at 7:33
  • @MarkoKolaksazov In a setting where you have a person who is willing to educate and instruct people with personalized guidance will tend to agree that "there are no stupid questions". The reality for this site, however, is that low quality questions waste the time of potential answerers and visitors, which negatively affects the experience for most people involved. I'm afraid that you should not expect that kind of personalized guidance here, because it does not scale to the number of incoming questions, and hampers the utility of the site for other users.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 5 at 9:35
  • @MarkoKolaksazov As per you being question banned, the mechanism is automatic and it depends mostly on you improving the existing questions. Read this FAQ carefully, and if you wish, you may ask for help on how to improve certain questions here on Meta Stack Overflow.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 5 at 9:36
  • I agree with your first comment. Moreover, many questions that arise don't view new topics, but they tend to be duplicates of previously asked questions. This happened to me more than once and is very often amongst beginners. What is important, is that nobody wants to ask repeating questions, if they could be answered after searching in the previous questions. However most beginners, including myself are often not sure about the nature of the question itself in the first place, and exactly that's why they ask duplicating and off-topic question: because they simply can't understand the basis! Commented Feb 5 at 10:05
  • Btw, I just asked ChatGPT about the topic in my first comment, and I received immediate, complete and working answer! So I guess this site will soon be replaced, at least for the complete beginners, and it may serve only amongst the very specialized and advanced professionals in the field of programming! Commented Feb 5 at 10:08
  • @MarkoKolaksazov One would counter-argue that 1) knowing how to search the web is a critical skill which anyone should have and does not depend on how new you are to a particular subject; and 2) some duplicates could still be useful if they serve as a good signpost to the answer, when search engines fail. The excuse for blatantly off-topic questions is much weaker though, because that suggests people weren't paying attention when taking the tour and reading the (help pages on the subject.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 5 at 10:10
  • 1
    @MarkoKolaksazov Reliance on any LLM for programming has been talked about over and over again. Good that it worked for you in that case, and we are not telling you not to use it. But one must understand that it won't work every time and may subtly mislead you with grave consequences. It does not replace Stack Overflow.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 5 at 10:12
  • 1) It depends, even only because if you are very new to a subject you may not even search for the right thing (or recognize the issue); 2) Yes, this is very true (especially in some of my cases), however, I still acknowledge, that given more knowledge about the subjects (e.g. data types in Python is a great example), much more of these duplicates could be reduced or avoided! Commented Feb 5 at 10:57
  • A very fresh example is my question (the last I was allowed to post): stackoverflow.com/questions/77898679/… When I certainly know, that I have different data types, I can search and easily find how to convert them (And I won't post anything stupid here). However, if I don't know that for arrays I should use numpy.logical_and(), instead of &, how can I know, that for these different data types there is a different way to work with them. (remember that sometimes the operations are very similar) Commented Feb 5 at 11:04
  • 1
    @MarkoKolaksazov 1) that would be fine, because asking a single duplicate question does not lead to a question ban. That requires a pattern of asking several poorly received questions. 2) For what it's worth, a Duck Duck Go search with the query numpy operations and gave me the API reference the that same function as the first result. So it could come down again to a matter of knowing how to search, and the site has intentionally optimized the experience for those who search. Alas, the site itself was not designed to fill in the knowledge gap on how to search the web.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 5 at 11:17
  • 1
    "if I don't know that for arrays I should use numpy.logical_and(), instead of &" - no, you have missed the point completely. numpy.logical_and is just a function that applies the & operator, offering a few more options and also allowing you to use it as a higher-order function. The actual problem is that & and and are different in Python (which is true whether or not you use Numpy). Commented Mar 12 at 18:14
15

I posted this on meta 4 years ago:

The Good, The Bad & The Ugly

TLDR

Give new users and persistent offenders (who write poorly received posts) a tutorial they must complete before they can post, which highlights good and bad posts, along with reasoning as to why they are judged as they are.

The idea behind it is to educate these users about what the community expects to a degree when it comes to posting. The knock on effect is to hopefully reduce the number of bad posts as well as reduce the amount of time experienced user spend explaining the same things over and over again in comments and via voting.

I truly believe something like this would set expectations to a certain degree by informing users what the community expects when it comes to posting.

I'm fully aware it won't stop the tide of poorly written posts, but it might inform a small portion of the users of our expectations.

8
  • 2
    That proposal would help. But I am suggesting changing expectations of potential users before they have even started posting their first question.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 10:24
  • @Raedwald that's what my post suggests, it is designed so that all new users would have to go through the process before they can post as well as persistent offenders.
    – Tanner
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 10:45
  • 1
    No, I mean even before they clock on "Ask A Question" and (perhaps) get transported to your tutorial. I mean perhaps even before they have first visited the site.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 13:29
  • 2
    @Raedwald, before they even get to visit (and find the answer to their question)? That would kill this site like lightning.
    – ouflak
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 15:22
  • 7
    @outflak No, it would not. Managing expectations of posters would not inhibit finding an answer to a question. Many read Wikipedia; far fewer edit it.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 21:29
  • Again, software is a factor. ;-)
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:35
  • 1
    @Raedwald How does SE change expectations of people "before they have first visited the site"? I'm honestly listening, but it does seem like a tall order. How would you achieve that?
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:38
  • That reminds me of my tutorial proposal from 2009: meta.stackexchange.com/a/521/6309
    – VonC
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 8:30
2

I agree entirely that expectation-management is important. And with the rise of algorithmic evolution for picking solutions to problems, I proposed users have to tick "Pre-Flight" checkboxes:

Pre-flight screening checklist for first/early posts--adaptively pick three items, tune with metrics

This list could adapt based on the tag, and see what effects it was happening on the average new user's question.

I'm still a broken record wanting to see this idea implemented. If SO won't try it as a feature itself, maybe it could be done as one of the new "research" projects--perhaps someone wanting to do a machine-learning thing.

0
-1

I would like to once again like to draw attention to this feature request: Make “What's on topic of this site?” visible

Things like "Tour", "FAQ", and "How to Ask" all sound super optional and passive, so I think new users can hardly be blamed for skipping over these. When they get to the "Ask Question" page, all they get is this super unhelpful set of instructions:

The current How to Ask side box text with its very unhelpful text. I mean really, even r/WritingPrompts has a more informative sidebar text...

This box is pretty much the only thing that new question askers are guaranteed to see, so why aren't we cramming more salient information into this text box? Things like what's allowed on this site and what's not, what will get your question closed/deleted, the guideline that you're supposed check that your question hasn't already been asked before, etc. A new user can get to this point and have absolutely no idea that all these policies and rules exist. There needs to be something that alerts them in a more prominent way that these things exist.

No, "visit the help center" and "asking help" doesn't count. Links with those names are practically invisible. There needs to be a clear direct call-to-action "Read These Guidelines First or Else We Are Not Responsible for What Happens to You" in this box. You know, typical JIT stuff.

"Users are lazy and they won't read the text anyway." Well, they sure as heck aren't going to read something that they don't even know exists. But if it's right in their face as they're writing their question, and it tells them that they're supposed to read it, then I think they'd be more likely to read it. (Now obviously, I don't think changing this will solve all the problems, but I think it could help at least a little.)

I'd rather this site be preventive, not reactive.

5
  • A question asking wizard is being worked on that should give more guidance.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 15:09
  • 3
    "There needs to be a clear direct call-to-action "Read These Guidelines First or Else We Are Not Responsible for What Happens to You" in this box." There is. Before anyone is allowed to ask their first question they're shown a page that tells them that this site is different, and tells them that they need to read the page on how to ask before continuing, and doesn't let them ask their question until they acknowledge that they've read the page. Every single person that ever asks a question either has read the how to ask page, or lied and claimed that they did. So status-completed.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 30, 2018 at 18:37
  • 1
    @Servy Oh, it's been a long since I first asked a question here, so I was unaware of that. But I think it would still be helpful to display a link to these guidelines more prominently in the sidebar, so that for a new user's 2nd or 3rd question, it's still there as a reminder. You know, reinforcement learning and whatnot.
    – ahiijny
    Commented Nov 30, 2018 at 19:04
  • 2
    Agree this big yellow box is basically wasted. Don't comprehend the downvotes, nor to my suggestion. The site seems to want to stay frozen mostly in time, with an eternity of off-topic questions culled by an increasingly irate volunteer army. :-/ Commented Dec 1, 2018 at 15:07
  • Additionally, if you make the window narrow enough, the adaptive layout puts the yellow box below pretty much everything on the ask question page. I think it would be better if the yellow box appeared at the top of the page, because then users would get a chance to read it before they start writing their question.
    – ahiijny
    Commented Dec 1, 2018 at 17:56
-12

Software is a factor, among all else

Entrepreneur, Linux amateur, and PM in training here... I represent the annoying guy. ;-)

  1. A change in awareness of "expectations" does require some changes to the SE website software, sooner or later.

  2. Software changes to the website require coding time from the workforce. ...As in, it will go to the SE PM's desk, he'll inquire about the budget with accounting, then ask if it fits with the workload of the programmers at his Monday afternoon meeting.

  3. SE is all employee-written; they don't take public contributions for the code on SourceForge or GitHub or the like; it's private GitHub-ish. So, they are limited on their software writing workforce. (Will Stack Overflow's engine be open sourced?)

As for whether your post is a good idea or not, I'm too new to know, but looks like the experts agree with you. I'm learning from y'all. But, just sayin'...

It could be that, behind wonderful ideas—whatever they are—not being implemented could be a logistics-budgeting decision. In addition to all the upvoted answers on this, I think UX software of SE and the workforce to write it wouldn't be entirely off topic.

8
  • 2
    Hey there. It's unclear why the link was duplicated, and also what exactly you want to cite from there. There are 10 answers, that vary wildly in scope and topic, and it's really not obvious what you want a reader to understand from it. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:41
  • Thanks, I might have gotten the same link twice, I wanted two. But, you're also right about it being confusing. Is brevity better?
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:47
  • 1
    Not sure to which extent I agree with your points, but I like this better, yes. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:58
  • 1
    Well, this is a meta friend! Please dissent and tell me why I'm all wrong and all wet! :-)
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:01
  • 1
    Related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/314287/…
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:42
  • Yep, thanks! So many of these ideas have already been discussed on some level. That's kinda' the point of SE, that we all ask similar questions. I see. I agree. I'm doing my best where I have the power to. Keep it comin'! :-)
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:57
  • 3
    Why do you think the software needs to change dramatically beyond "here is a field to ask your question" and "here is a place to see others' questions and answers"?
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:37
  • @Makoto I never said "dramatically". And, I'm not advocating that the software change. I'm only stating that, knowing how business works, there is probably some bean-counting going on that stifles good ideas—yours or mine—from being implemented.
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 21:41
-23

"If 90% of them take it in their stride and improve.."

People tend to adopt/change behavior only after several failed attempts and then continue testing rule limits time to time. So the problem is not with expectations. You can't distinct those situations externally.

Also definition of failed expectations should be extended to cover situation "good question - zero response" (I mean not only closed question). What can be done with this? Nothing.

Based on my observations new authors become rude and start talking about "toxic SO community" not because of just "failed expectations" reason but because of feeling (if you want "false feeling") of injustice and unrespect in more complex social interactions than closed "help me with my homework" question but e.g. in situation "I spend a lot of time to prepare nice question, my post get a lot of upvotes first day, but next day it was found by reviewers and..." Other type of complex interactions with site that lead to "feeling of injustice" was described by George M, it includes discussing duplicates on Meta.

15
  • 19
    'People tend to adopt/change behavior only after several failed attempts and then continue testing rule limits. So the problem is not with expectations.' - The blunt truth is that most people just want their answer, period. They don't care about their failed attempts or the issues with their question or the tour or any other advice that isn't directly related to them solving their problem.
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 15:47
  • 4
    That seems like a false expectation that we would wish to suppress. Just because one question was not closed doesn't mean that future questions of similar quality or off-topicness won't.
    – E_net4
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 15:50
  • As a side note, please focus your edits on substantial improvements, and avoid making too many of those. An excessive streak of edits will continuously bump the question up for little reason, and is kind of annoying.
    – E_net4
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 15:52
  • I was not informed about it, so thank you for information. But I have no motivation so can't promise anything. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:00
  • 13
    A nice question and a good question can be two very different things. I often see people defending their questions as, "legitimate questions". Yeah, they're having the problem. We don't dispute that. But at the same time, we have quality standards. How, "legit" their problem is doesn't really matter. All that does is question quality and topicality.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:04
  • I do not want to discuss "have new authors right to feel something?". This is just my observations. Take them, compare with yours. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:11
  • 1
    Then you're answering the wrong question, which is explicitly tagged discussion.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:17
  • This question can be answered different ways. But for me this aspect "have new authors right to feel unwelcoming?" is less important. For me was important to explain "why they feel unwelcoming" as I see it. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:33
  • I can't discuss seriously "rights to feel". I can discuss "Should I ignore your feelings". But this is second, after "investigating why you feel smth". IMHO. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:45
  • 20
    I find most new users have unreasonable expectations, and respond with hostility when those expectations are not met. Especially when those unmet expectations occur with enforcement of quality standards. We're not discussing their right to feel unwelcoming, nor whether we should ignore them. We're discussing if we can alleviate that feeling entirely by properly managing those expectations. This entire movement is predicated on the fact that SO, and SE in general, has failed in doing so.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 16:52
  • @fbueckert I can't agree with this: "most new users... respond with hostility when those expectations are not met" in word "most" and in pretend to know theirs "expectations". "unwelcome SO myth" is result of conflicts in small number of cases, and in more complex social iteractions. And I think that it is still a valid answer on the question. Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:21
  • SO specifically prevents you from participating after a certain number of failures. People generally can't try try again here.
    – user5451396
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:26
  • @Steve Prevents who? New auhtors? Can't find anything about it. I event can't imagine how this could be organized. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 18:28
  • @RomanPokrovskij Look up question and answer bans on SO
    – user5451396
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 19:33
  • Ok. You mean temporal bans. This do not "prevent new authors from participating" and do not try to change manhood nature: "try it again, try several times, try several different ways". This how intellect works. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 20:16
-33

I don't feel welcome in places that do not want me, so I don't think that managing expectations would help.

For example, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Server Fault is still a place for system administrators in a professional capacity. I know that I am not welcome here because of this description.

You say that Breitbart hasn't made you feel unwelcome? Okay. I say that Server Fault has made me feel unwelcome, by putting up a big sign that says "You aren't welcome here".

but isn't the case of you feeling unwelcomed on you?

Yes, yes it is. But I still feel unwelcomed.

let's say I'm having a party and I've invited a bunch of friends and you (a complete stranger) happen to walk past and want to join in, if I say 'Sorry, only people who are invited or at the very least know me are invited.' am I now in danger of being unwelcoming?

Whether or not you're "being" unwelcoming is beside the point. The point is that I "feel" unwelcomed.

To quote the infamous blog post: "When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done."

If this is the logic that SO is using, then this is an unwinnable battle. There will always be people that "feel unwelcome", despite everything.

9
  • 2
    @Houseman but isn't the case of you feeling unwelcomed on you? Meaning, the reason you don't feel welcome is because you don't have the knowledge / aren't a professional server administrator so surely if you want to feel welcomed, you should well... become one? To put it another way, let's say I'm having a party and I've invited a bunch of friends and you (a complete stranger) happen to walk past and want to join in, if I say 'Sorry, only people who are invited or at the very least know me are invited.' am I now in danger of being unwelcoming? – Script47
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:42
  • 1
    There's an argument to be made for a site's reputation preceding it. There's also an argument to be made that you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, which is what's happening here.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:43
  • 2
    Meh. As soon as you resort to, "unassailable" logic, as per that blog post, your argument is inherently flawed.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:51
  • 10
    Ok, now that we have this piece of wisdom (that we already know about and has been discussed to the ends of the Earth already)...... what do we do with it? Because what you're saying here is basically "people who want to feel unwelcome should never be questioned as to the value of that feeling. The feeling is there, it's true, we must fix it". Then you'll have experts complaining about this pandering to the newbies to be unwelcoming to them (the experts). Who do you listen to here?
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 18:57
  • 1
    @fbueckert that's the logic SO is using. I'm just playing by the rules of the game
    – user773737
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:01
  • You can see how well that went for the vice president. You sure you want to follow in those footsteps?
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:03
  • 1
    @fbueckert I'm not familiar to what you're alluding to.
    – user773737
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:09
  • 1
    @Patrice IMO, chasing the "welcoming" dragon is an exercise in futility. It's barking up the wrong tree. We should stop focusing on it entirely.
    – user773737
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:10
  • 3
    @Houseman 100% with you there. I think that kinda was where I was going with when I showed that expert's "unwelcomingness" may very well be newbie "welcomingness". The problem is that SO is a business, and that's how they want to see it. They want traffic, they want users. So "welcomingness", however much of a pipe dream it is, is very much at the forefront of their mind :/. To the detriment of the site I guess
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:15
-52

Sadly, this is another attempt at fixing the perception rather than the fundamental fact that the site is truly unwelcoming. If you want to know why people bitch on Twitter rather than coming here to complain, it's because there are gangs of moderators that support each other through any sort of inappropriate behavior.

I saw a new user get their question wrongly closed for a supposed duplicate, even though the other question referred to was substantially different (but one would have had to actually read them, rather than skim keywords). I tried to answer their question quickly so they at least got that, but it got wiped out in a flash.

And then I tried to point out that ugly process on meta, and the same people shut me down immediately. So I ended up leaving that site, because the bad faith put into dismissing my complaint was staggering.

It's not so much the closing of the questions that disturbs people as the dismissal without even trying to understand what the issue is. You see a queue as something to get through as fast as possible, but it'd be better to have a longer queue and still remember those are people asking questions, not robots. If you want to behave like a robot, program one, don't inflict your moods on others.

20
  • 15
    If you think that a question isn't a duplicate then explain why you think the duplicate fails to adequately answer the question, rather than just assuming that the person closing it didn't read it.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:33
  • 12
    One question: when you approached meta, were you as vehement as you are here? That's a surefire way to not get what you want, even if the initial reason for you to do what you did was correct. (I'm not saying it's ok that's how it is.... but it's a reality). But one thing I read here is again the focus on users, instead of posts. That's where a LOT of the breaks happen. The problem is that veterans (these mods you talk of) see the site as a way to get good content up, well rated, and visible. A lot of new users still just want their question answered, regardless of our intent
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:33
  • 34
    I hate wrongful dupe closures just as much as the next guy. But taking the stance of this being intentional or malicious is only serving to reinforce your perception of us being unwelcoming as opposed to us being human and making mistakes.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:45
  • 6
    @Makoto no no. Remember, users on this site are human. Except if you disagree with them. Then they are monsters.
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:47
  • 3
    @Patrice: I've played the role of "monster" more times than I care to recall. I can look myself in the mirror and know I'm human and have made mistakes, and I can be at peace with that. They're the ones with the identity complex, not me. :)
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:50
  • 25
    @Makoto exactly what a monster would say. Sarcasm aside, that's what's REALLY starting to rub me off with this whole welcoming shtick. New users are allowed to throw all kinds of tantrum, insult everyone along their way, be mean, disrespectful, and not care about this site or what made it a success over the years. But if they are a new user, they are absolved of most of this, simply because they are new users. Isn't that being MORE than welcoming?
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 19:58
  • 4
    I'd be more receptive of the issues if those that challenged the status quo actually tried to understand what SO is all about. I can count on one hand the number of new users that posted a meta that actually do that. Heck, we get many established users that still don't. But plowing straight ahead and refusing to listen or accept that, hey, maybe SO doesn't quite work the way you think it does, doesn't help you, us, or anyone else. It's just frustration all around, as you write SO off, we write you off, and nobody's happy.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:06
  • 9
    even though the other question referred to was substantially different it is not about the questions. If the answer in the linked dupe will work for this questions, there is no need to post another new answer. There are 4,489 posts linked to the classic Net NRE. I daresay many of them are different questions. The answer is the same in almost all cases though since there is only 2 root causes for an NRE Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 20:14
  • 2
    Could somebody explain why you have donwnvoted this opinion? Not because he is unwelcome to say, isn't it? But at the same time you do not care that Georg M could understand it this way? Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:43
  • 1
    @Disaffected1070452 That is wrong. It's about both the question and the answers. If all possible answers to A are also possible answers to B, and vice versa, then they are duplicates. If that is not true then they are not duplicates. Just because an answer to another question is also a possible answer to the question you're looking at does not in itself make the question a duplicate. All possible answers to the duplicate also have to be possible answers for the target and vice versa.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 21:55
  • 13
    @Roman on meta, where votes are expected to show agreement as much as the usual signals.... I think it's normal to downvote stuff people don't agree on. Does that mean we downvote him? Does that mean we tell him 'go away'? No, not at all. He is entirely welcome at having an opinion different than mine. Am I not welcome to also express my opinion? Have we gone so far off the deep end that 'disagreeing' is now 'unwelcoming'?
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 22:30
  • 3
    @Roman you're putting words in my mouth here. Big ones. Actually ones I do not agree with, so calm down with the inference plz. And I can understand his understanding of downvotes and still disagree (as I currently do). Am I unwelcoming by using the very tools I was given to express that opinion? I will never believe I am.
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 22:44
  • 7
    He thinks, like so many before, that there is an evil crew on stack and meta that likes the site the way it is and that do a sort of confirmation bias amongst themselves, where any 'disagreeing' idea is shut down. Yeah, I get that. And God knows that it can look like that very easily. The one problem I keep on seeing here is the difference between what newer users feel the site is about, vs what veterans think. As long as we don't reconcile these two, nothing will move forward.
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 22:46
  • 1
    @Roman very ambiguous phrasing, considering that sentence doesn't mean anything :/. Either you ask me if I bother to understand how he sees downvotes (if so, check my comment just above I explain it) or you ask me if I am bothered by his view of my downvotes. If that is your question, no I am not bothered at all. No more than I am bothered if someone misinterprets me and decides to be angry because of a misunderstanding....
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 22:49
  • 9
    Seriously? I'd estimate that fully half of the questions on the tags that I follow could be closed as duplicates, and a good chunk of those are exact duplicates. If the expectation is that you should be able to copy an answer and simply paste it over your existing code in order for it not to be a "duplicate", then maybe the site should be renamed "Mechanical Turk Exchange". Most of the time I can find a solid dup target by Googling the question title.
    – Comintern
    Commented Nov 27, 2018 at 6:05

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