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tldr; People get misunderstood a lot on here, existing users trying to help, and new users with the overall goals of the site. New users need redirected instead of boiler plates, other sites exist for new programmers and should be recommended. Main point of contention is attitudes on both sides.

I strongly believe Stack Overflow has a problem, and that it isn't just a loud minority of elitist users, but instead the reputation the site has gained as a "go here, get help" forum.
Most new users coming to this site are rookie programmers or at least new enough that their code and posts will have duplicates, but not exact enough that all the answers fit. From what I've seen and read in the small time here, the rules, and the general meta of the forum push a narrative that Stack Overflow is an archive of questions and answers, which itself is a ridiculous goal to pursue as you've got to ask stupid questions from time to time to get a build up of good answers and faux-elitism means nobody will come here after asking a single question and getting downvoted because they misunderstood an answer or criticised someone with high rep who treats the forum like a job and therefore has no chill for lack of better phrasing.

I think a solution for all the misunderstandings is either to drop the pursuit of the idea of turning Stack Overflow into a resource, as that's not what forums should be designed to be, and it seems to be a community guided thing that the very community fails to make obvious to new visitors, or, make it clearer that this is not a place for new programmers to ask for help. To clarify, a new programmer does not want to hear "Oh god why are you using x, that was made bad practise ages ago, use y instead", unless you're willing to also explain why not to use x and why y is better practice, so people can actually learn. Make it clear what the community intention for the forums are and kindly redirect new programmers or folks with basic problems to better resources where they can get support and not rampant criticism.

Edit: The main issue I think needs to be looked at is a combination of newcomer perception, and existing users' burnout: New people aren't looking at the tour or reading the help desk, these should be made much more obvious, have some sort of pop up that's not a pop up for all new users that practically fills the screen detailing the goals and intentions of the site and community, this should dissuade anyone treating it like a help site for new programmers which it's often confused for. Have existing users understand that this is not their job, they are volunteers, they do not have to answer every question and therefore they cannot rely on "I saw this x amount of times before" as an excuse for being unkind or brazen. The community would be improved drastically if people had an ounce of sympathy popped into them intravenously before they posted a comment or an answer, as mentioned in the comments, people are often frustrated when they make a post here, they are not always in the best of moods, users should be understanding of that.

Further Edit: After making this post, users have used it as a pivot to go to my StackOverflow posts and downvote them, this is clearly not because they are just bad questions, but as a reaction to this meta post. This is only evidence of a problem in the community, they might not have been perfect posts, but the negative attention is purely vindictive in nature and acts as downvote bombing.

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    "Most new users coming to this site are rookie programmers" Gonna have to ask for a citation on that. It would probably also be easier to take you seriously if you skipped the ad hominem about "elitist users" and accusing people of treating this site as a "job".
    – ivarni
    Oct 4, 2019 at 7:31
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    Stack Overflow is a resource. I use it every day, successfully. Whatever happens surrounding it, it is still a treasure trove of answers coated with sugar, spice and everything nice. The repository is "fine" although it will forever need a spit polish, it's everything around it that is cracking. People, mostly.
    – Gimby
    Oct 4, 2019 at 7:34
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    Nitpicking, not a forum. It's a question and answer site. More like a community FAQ. The idea is to have good and quality. It's hard to warp the head around it at first. We came with a sense of urgency. The negative feedback, is a feedback. Getting throws back to [mre] and How to Ask have improve my communication skill. It leave only the duplicate case. Well duplicate are not a bad thing, if it's good an clear enought it won't get downvoted. Oct 4, 2019 at 7:39
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    Stack Overflow is an archive of questions and answers, which itself is a ridiculous goal to pursue The goal is not at all ridiculous, instead this is what that kept SO to move on forward and be great, it is however revealed that this goal is completed
    – weegee
    Oct 4, 2019 at 7:43
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    @SamsyTheUnicorn while it might be difficult for newcomers sometimes (and appears to be something SE is trying to address), downvoting is not a violition of the CoC.
    – Druckles
    Oct 4, 2019 at 7:44
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    "The "Our Model" section of the help centre should just be rewritten to be more newcomer friendly and should be required reading somehow to post Problem is, newcomers *are directed to the site rules when they arrive. Most simply do not read them. I cannot count the number of times I've had to explain these rules to "new contributors". Often, people are in such a hurry to post their problem they simply cannot concentrate on anything extraneous. Oct 4, 2019 at 8:16
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    Remembering that everyone who answers questions on this site is a volunteer, and usually a professional who gets paid for coding: Do you feel it's fair that they should need to hold the hands of people who can't be bothered to put in a minimum of effort when asking a question? How much patience can one have with people who come here with the expectation that others will do their work for them, or provide a tutorial that's available elsewhere? Oct 4, 2019 at 8:19
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    RE "children misbehaving": This is a rather basic misconception about the site - it does not target "children", or absolute beginners. A certain basic understanding of the coding language involved is expected. Without that, any answer given cannot be understood. Writing an entire tutorial to explain an answer is beyond the scope of the site - tutorials exist elsewhere. Oct 4, 2019 at 8:28
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    Because these are professionals, who have at some point gone through exactly what you're experiencing, they're trying to teach you what they had to learn, often very painfully. That may be where there's a "disconnect" in perceptions. Someone asking a question is often so focussed on "I need that answer now" that they're unable to grasp the importance of an apparent insistence on a different way. Oct 4, 2019 at 8:42
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    Coming at this from yet another angle: When giving an answer in a very complex programming language (and let's face it, C++ isn't simple) professionals are so aware of "this could cause that, so be careful to first understand exactly what's needed" that they want full context. They also want to be able to test a problem. And it takes a lot of time and effort to read lines and lines of code... that may have nothing to do with a problem. You're asking for their time, they tell you to please prepare the content so that they can deal with it efficiently. Oct 4, 2019 at 8:46
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    "I got two answers with the exact line causing the issue from people who didn't make any comments. That's help" Yes... it's giving you the fish so that you can satisfy your hunger immediately. And the marked answer also gave you explanation and links, which is very important. Ask yourself, though, if you had been able to do what those in comments were encouraging you to do and at least been able to find where the problem was occurring... Would you have profited from that? Oct 4, 2019 at 8:51
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    Doing things you can't do is what learning is at the most basic level. It's how those people trying to help you learned what they know. Removing code to isolate an issue is a trial and error thing, that's the point.
    – ivarni
    Oct 4, 2019 at 9:24
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    @Samsy 1 hour? Before I personally post.... I give it a week. Of writing, rewriting, research, work. I may be on the other extreme..... But I'd still say 2 hours is a bit little before turning to Stack. That's where the main issue lies: the site is suffering from it's success.... :/
    – Patrice
    Oct 4, 2019 at 11:27
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    One of those barriers is that you need to be able to debug. It's...one of the foundational skills that every programmer needs, and we can't teach. That ability is critical to solving programming problems, and without that, we can't help. Not won't, but can't. Everything you learn about programming is built on that base.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 4, 2019 at 13:29
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    If you don't have the resources, you don't know how to debug. That's all there is to it. Beyond that, it seems we're talking past each other. You want SO to be something it's not. All I can do is repeat myself. It's up to you to accept it, or not. Good bye.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 4, 2019 at 14:13

1 Answer 1

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...the rules, and the general meta of the forum push a narrative that Stack Overflow is an archive of questions and answers, which itself is a ridiculous goal to pursue as you've got to ask stupid questions from time to time to get a build up of good answers

Stack Overflow is indeed an archive of useful questions and answers. Every day thousands of visitors come here and find solutions to their problems even without asking a question on their own. The reason is that simply not every problem is unique. Stack Overflow is (still) a really good resource and library of relevant programming questions with useful answers.

When we answer a question we do not answer it only for a single person, but for every person that comes there afterwards too.

Is it a ridiculous goal to pursue? No, because many of the visitors looking for solutions wouldn't get help otherwise.

Is it a ridiculous goal to pursue because sometimes there are stupid questions asked? Absolutely not. We have tools in place remove stupid questions from the library part of the website. This is not a big problem if it happens only from time to time (it happens a bit more often though).

... nobody will come here after asking a single question ...

So far there are no real indications of that. Maybe in the future, but for now this fear might be somewhat exaggerated. Also it's fine to come here only for a single question or even without any question at all.

... has no chill

That is indeed a misconception often heard. Some may have no chill, but I think that many more have and still downvote, because voting (up and down) is the quality control here. Downvotes are not personal, just an indication of how useful the contribution was (and on meta not even that instead just agreement or disagreement).

... drop the pursuit of the idea of turning Stack Overflow into a resource ...

I guess most answerers wouldn't want that. They are here because Stack Overflow is a resource. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be here.

... make it clearer that this is not a place for new programmers to ask for help

Thanks for writing this. I fully agree, it really should be made as clear as possible. You need a minimal understanding of how to prepare a good question or how to search for possible duplicates. This platform here is good for improving skills (which doesn't make you an elite already, just because you have some skills), but it's not really efficient for learning from scratch. It cannot be said often enough currently.

However, we would need the help of the platform owner to make it more clear. I'm not sure that we will get it. The company behind Stack Overflow seems to want both (and may end up making both really bad).

I think you got the alternatives right, but the company kind of disagrees with you.

... redirect new programmers or folks with basic problems to better resources

I don't know if there are better resources out there. There may not. I would also be interested in getting to know them and if there are, I would gladly redirect new programmers there.

However, simply saying, don't go here for learning how to program should be enough in principle.

One should not forget that everything given here is voluntary work. This is all an unpaid service and there is no guarantee for getting answers. There may be paid services that provide much better tuition.

Edit: In response to the edit of the question.

The community would be improved drastically if people had an ounce of sympathy popped into them intravenously before they posted a comment or an answer ...

First, this is not formulated in a a nice way, reducing it's chances for making a compelling argument close to zero. That's unfortunate.

But even if it were formulated as something like "People should be nice to each other..." I would expect a bit more context like giving examples of what there is and what there should be and most important how it should all be implemented in for example a code of conduct or something else.

The big question is not if we should be nice to each other, but how we can achieve that.

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    While you make good points here, they're all ones that have been brought up in the far too lengthy comment chain on the main post. The quotations you took are a bit out of context, especially the "drop the pursuit one". My main point, if my badly written question had one, was that it needs to be clear that this is not a place for new programmers to ask for help, and there are better places for that (Reddit, Sololearn, Discord) and there are better resources for learning (Tutorial sites, Language sites, Youtube). Volunteering to me is not an excuse for an attitude though. Oct 4, 2019 at 9:12
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    "... nobody will come here after asking a single question ..." about that - actually...that is fine. There are contributors who asked a single question and have no activity on the site later. But if the question was good, it could serve to guide many others. There are these questions. But also, people do come to SO without ever asking a question. Many are taken here from searching a problem they had on the internet and getting links to SO posts. These people may even keep coming back solely through searches without ever making an account. And that's fine too - that's the point of SO.
    – VLAZ
    Oct 4, 2019 at 9:12
  • @SamsyTheUnicorn "it needs to be clear that this is not a place for new programmers to ask for help" I fully agree with that. We need the help of the company for it. "Volunteering to me is not an excuse for an attitude though." I don't really see the attitude, maybe I'm too blind for it. Could you maybe make it more clear in your question where you see an attitude? Oct 4, 2019 at 9:20
  • @SamsyTheUnicorn You're welcome to mark comments under the main post as "no longer needed" and delete your own, where you feel appropriate. And you can edit your question. Given that Trilarion has written an answer, a tldr to bring out what has crystallize as the main point of concern would be very helpful. Oct 4, 2019 at 9:24
  • @Trilarion Attitude and the perception of it through text is wholly subjective and I don't think I can find a perfect example for you. Jonrsharpe's comment on my question could be an example to some, taking a confrontational stance and linking a post only for people to divert over there to downvote it some more, causing damage to my account for reasons possibly more so related to this post rather than the linked question. Oct 4, 2019 at 9:25
  • @CindyMeister I'm not getting anything like that showing up, and after being sent downvotes because of this post, I can't even vote on comments there anymore. I will work on writing up a TLDR for this question however. Oct 4, 2019 at 9:32
  • @SamsyTheUnicorn jonrsharpe's may be a bit short, but basically he just advises you to try out debugging rather sooner than later, because it's an important skill and will help you a lot. And because Stack Overflow is a resource it could help you with this. I think there must be questions and answer dealing with "how to debug". Oct 4, 2019 at 9:37
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    @SamsyTheUnicorn "I'm not getting anything like that showing up" You mean flagging comments? Do you see an up-arrow next to comments? And below that a square "thingy" with a vertical line attached? That's for flagging. Click that and you'll get a dialog box. Oct 4, 2019 at 9:39
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    @Trilarion He repeated the same thing i was already being told on another post, at the time that post was not relevant to the discussion, and he linked it, soon after, a few new downvotes appear, which of course damage rep, and therefore restricts what i can actually do on the site. It was an irrelevant comment and when I pointed this out, he responded with snark. Oct 4, 2019 at 9:40
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    The "no longer needed" option is gated by rep? I didn't know that. Not convinced that was a good design decision.
    – ivarni
    Oct 4, 2019 at 9:52
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    @SamsyTheUnicorn A lot of those limitations are put in place to help battle spam accounts. It's unfortunate when it affects legitimate users but I think the benefits mainly outweigh the drawbacks. We need to still be able to close questions if they have accepted answers as a signal about what the community considers on topic or not. Suggesting good edits to posts that need it are a good way of getting above the lower rep thresholds.
    – ivarni
    Oct 4, 2019 at 10:02
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    @SamsyTheUnicorn I have sympathy with people looking for help, but I also have limited time and need to prioritize. I definitely cannot do teaching on a one to one basis. I don't think this community really can make new programmers but it can make existing programmers better and I help with that. And did I already mention that we would need the help of the company with conveying that message? Oct 4, 2019 at 12:33
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    @SamsyTheUnicorn "You don't need help to tell people "Hey, this question would be more appropriate on x, this site is for professional or experienced programmers.". " That is a suggestion worth discussing. To not get it lost in a heap of comments, maybe it should be its own question on meta (or part of this question). I will then surely comment on it. Oct 4, 2019 at 13:12
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    but... I don't know reddit, their quality standards on r/programming, or the other sites you mention. Do you really think I should fling a new user around without knowing if the site will help them or not? All I do know is "this isn't appropriate for Stack". Is the onus on me to find the place for that new coder? I.... fail to see why:/
    – Patrice
    Oct 4, 2019 at 13:33
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    @SamsyTheUnicorn If we cannot/want not answer a question then closing it immediately is only consequential. A generic "look elsewhere" might be an option but I would prefer to discuss about it in a separate question, not here in comments. Not many people will read it here. Oct 4, 2019 at 14:35

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