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Brad Larson recently wrote:

The single most popular reason for people to coordinate voting on this site is to evade question bans. People who rely on this site to do their job will do whatever it takes to keep asking questions here ... in certain industries located in specific parts of the world [it is assumed you will do this]... some companies even teach new employees, formally or informally, how to create sock puppets or participate in voting rings... to evade question bans.

Question bans result from persistent bad questions. So Brad's statement suggests that a substantial fraction of some industries in some countries are repeatedly and frequently posting bad questions. I could imagine that might be a large stream of bad questions (if the industries and countries are large enough), and therefore might be a substantial contribution to the stream of bad questions we complain about. But is that so?

About what fraction of bad questions are upvoted by voting rings?


Why does this matter? Quality creates kindness, and conversely low quality creates unkindness. The vast stream of bad questions annoys the site curators, grinding them down, until they become snarky or even rude.

If a large fraction of bad questions are generated and upvoted by members of voting rings, those voting rings are therefore indirectly contributing to the site being unwelcoming, and we might make the site more welcoming by focusing on reducing the effect of those kinds of voting rings.

What is more, the members of those rings should not be people we welcome, and probably have no interest in producing questions valuable to others. So attempts to "welcome" them are misguided. If a large fraction of bad questions come from them, better and quicker detection and elimination of them would enable "welcoming" and help efforts to be directed at worthwhile questions.

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    Even if you stop them from voting fraudulently, they'll just make duplicate accounts.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:45
  • @Raedwald: "So attempts to "welcome" them are misguided." Have attempts been made to "welcome" them? Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:48
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    @NicolBolas: Yes. By poor, misguided souls who believe that every, "Welcome to Stack Overflow" comment is somehow welcoming.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:49
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    @Servy If the are a major problem, some response other than simply closing their accounts once found would be worthwhile.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:49
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    @Raedwald And what do you have in mind?
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:51
  • @Raedwald: What other response is there? IP bans can be circumvented even if they don't catch others in the crossfire. Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:51
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    @Servy Well, it does not matter what I have in mind if, in fact, they are only a small fraction of bad questions. I've asked a factual question; I don't want it derailed by a discussion about what to do about voting rings.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 21:53
  • Re "Quality creates kindness, and conversely low quality creates unkindness.": I like it. Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 15:07
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    Re "If a large fraction of bad questions are generated and upvoted by members of voting rings": No, voting rings are too much work for minimum-effort users. Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 15:08
  • A couple/three years ago I mentioned that I see so many bad questions getting up-votes within a minute of being posted and whether there was some mechanism in place to try to determine if the up-voting was being done by a sock-puppet, and was essentially told that's just the way it is
    – Dexygen
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 17:47

2 Answers 2

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Only a tiny fraction of users attempt to defraud the voting system. My answer there was talking about what drove this small percentage of people, and that largely is question-ban-evasion. Even among question-banned users, few of them try to evade these bans and fewer resort to voting fraud to work around this.

I have seen certain tags get overwhelmed with terrible questions in short periods of time due to people evading bans by creating account after account, so I asked this question to discuss ways of combating that. We have some tools that we can use to throttle new accounts at a location once we've discovered this, but I wanted to explore better ways of finding or slowing question ban recidivism. The discussion didn't quite go in that direction, so I was a little disappointed in that.

Shog9's answer to that question seemed to indicate that question ban recidivism isn't a significant contributor to overall poor question quality. That would further indicate that the smaller fraction of ban-evaders committing voting fraud would be an even smaller piece of this.

Voting fraud reduces trust in the overall system, so we act on it regularly, but only a tiny fraction of people are involved. On a site this size, a tiny fraction can be a decent number of people, but we clean up most of these before people notice.

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    Only a tiny fraction of users attempt to defraud the voting system...few of them try to evade these bans that you/we know of. There is a fair chance that only the bad/lazy ones get found.
    – Liam
    Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 14:26
  • @Liam I was going to ask something along the same vein—do we have some kind of proof that so few users try to evade these bans? Commented Sep 7, 2018 at 18:06
  • @Liam - When we look at an individual account, it's pretty easy to see if they're targeting votes at someone else. Even if they try to hide their tracks via account details or accessing through Tor nodes or other proxies, in order to provide benefit for a central account they still have to vote for it. It's hard to hide from our tools, and over the years we've seen everything people have tried. My comments are based on random statistical samplings of users above the voting threshold that we have performed at various times. The same is true for question-banned users, who we see a lot of.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 14:36
  • @Liam - We certainly are missing people, but that's more of a discovery problem than an analysis one. We have tools that notify when behavior gets really suspicious (with many false positives), queries we've worked with the community on, flags from the community when things just look weird, and our own gut instincts to follow up on odd patterns. There are gaps in that where people can slide through for a little while, but once we're aware of someone it's pretty hard to hide from targeted scrutiny. Again, based on random sampling, we don't think we're missing too many of these people.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2018 at 14:42
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    @Liam We (staff) look into this pretty regularly too, but not just at specific cases, more the phenomenon overall. We can (for instance) join with the suspicious votes table, look at parts of deleted accounts, create userscripts that dig the abuse cache too, etc. More often than not, we find identified fraudulent behavior that was actually benign, rather than fraudulent behavior that wasn't identified. When something way too stinky to have gotten +3 'naturally' is shown to anyone that can flag, they generally do, and fast.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 12, 2018 at 12:05
  • My point was mainly that; calculating the rate of a phenomenon that is, by nature, clandestine is always flawed. You could be bang on with your assumptions you could be waaayyyy off. It's impossible to tell. All you can say is that these are the patterns of what we know about. Basically your in the same conundrum as crime statistics. You know your not getting everyone (or you should know this) so you can make a guess and extrapolate but you can't be positive that Only a tiny fraction of users attempt to defraud the voting system
    – Liam
    Commented Sep 12, 2018 at 12:15
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I personally do think that banning accounts must have at least some effect. Unless these people have multiple accounts all brought up to the 15 reputation threshold then we are at least restricting their ability to utilize erroneous voting techniques. Or am I missing something?

As far as the fraction, seems to me Brad Larson is probably better equipped to answer that question, I personally see bad questions asked from a myriad of people, but so to do I see many good questions being asked.

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