164

This old question has come up again, this time sparked by a heaping pile of flags in a room dedicated to Gujarati Android developers. But the question isn't new; two years ago, this was the lament:

This isn't one of our language Q&A sites. We don't allow anything other than English on the main site, we shouldn't allow it in chat.

Which makes some sense. Chat Stack Exchange has hundreds of moderators and high-rep users who read and understand myriad languages; Chat Stack Overflow does not, because Stack Overflow the main site is still English-only. When there's a problem in a Russian-language chatroom on Chat Stack Exchange, it's usually possible to find someone who is able to understand the situation and deal with it appropriately - it may take a little bit of time, but flags aren't gonna sit unhandled for days, or worse be ignored completely... But both of these things can and have happened in non-English rooms on Chat Stack Overflow.

For the past 4 years, I've taken a rather laissez faire approach here; if a room isn't causing problems, let it be... Only when it starts to cause problems, shut it down. Unfortunately, this just creates a situation where folks have wildly differing expectations of what is considered appropriate; sooner or later, folks are gonna feel like they've had the rug yanked out from beneath their feet. If this sounds a lot like the general problem of moderation in chat, that's because it is - the only difference is that while for years we mostly didn't moderate English chatrooms because the loudest chatters made a huge ugly stink about it, we've avoided moderating non-English chat because we can't. So our only choice has been to either not moderate or not host the chatrooms at all.

...But what if it wasn't?

The Stack Overflow approach to moderation has always been to divide the cost among everyone who participates. If everyone accepts that the price to be part of a well-run site is to participate in running it, then no one has to play Atlas. The solution to moderating English chatrooms isn't more moderators stomping on chatters with hobnailed boots; it's the chatters themselves being willing to take responsibility for their own actions and encourage their peers to do the same... Why shouldn't this also be true for non-English chatrooms?

Why we might want this?

Well, the #1 reason is that folks are doing it anyway. Saying "English-only" two years ago didn't accomplish much beyond providing us with a fig leaf; I don't expect it to do more now. Also, folks appear to be blaming the British, and while it probably is their fault in some way, I don't feel comfortable letting them take all the blame here.

But beyond that... It's good for the site. The real Stack Overflow, where y'all ask and answer programming questions. No one likes seeing piles of unclear questions in machine-translated English, but that's what we get... Unless we have a way for folks to get some advice and mentoring elsewhere. Some chatrooms already exist to help folks learn how to express problems or ideas in English, rooms where folks are able to express themselves in their native language, to ask questions in their native language, while others - those with more experience and often a better command of English - endeavor to assist them. This generally results in the person asking a better question on the main site than they would have, or possibly avoiding the question entirely through carefully thinking about what they want to ask (i.e. rubber ducking). Just as localized sites were created to tear down some barriers that were keeping people from participating, chatrooms could offer a bridge between those who want to participate but can't and those who want to help them but aren't allowed.

What would it take?

...But just as with non-English Q&A sites, non-English chatrooms would need a healthy group of people who can act as liaisons between those who can't communicate in English and the rest of the site. Folks who can understand and relay the goals of Stack Overflow and the philosophies of chat, who can resolve or escalate disputes, who can represent the room when conflict arises.

And this is where we've always gotten stuck! The moderators on SO tried to set up a system for this a few years back, but finding folks who were both involved in the relevant chatrooms and able to communicate with the moderators was difficult, especially with the proliferation of chatrooms at the time. Realistically, we probably need to do this more like Area51: get folks to commit to the role before the chatroom is created, not after it's already causing problems.

Which is why I'm asking y'all now, is anyone interested in pursuing this idea? Are there groups willing to act as liaisons for a room in their language on Chat Stack Overflow, and if so is this something we should pursue?

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    From my experience the last couple of days, a large portion of users in the mentioned rooms are willing to chat in English. There is however a vocal minority that adapts a more "rebellious" attitude. Those users seem to associate any kind of moderation with being banned, or are for other reasons reluctant to help moderate the room(s). Although I have little to contribute as a "localized" mod (No Dutch room), I'm interested in seeing a proper approach worked out. A area51-like approach might prove useful, if we can somehow verify a user's motivation to actually moderate the room.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 22:12
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    @Makoto: Chat is also used for discussion that's off-topic for SO. There's a social aspect to it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 22:26
  • 3
    Don't get hung up on technical details here (RO is a user classification, not a strictly-defined role in terms of responsibilities) @TravisJ. The high-level goal here is to have folks who'd be able and willing to represent a room before the rest of the community, and represent the community to the room. What that means in detail, and whether or not folks exist for that role, is... Kinda the big question here.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 22:32
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    It only seems difficult, @TravisJ, because it is in fact really, really difficult. The #1 hardest thing about launching sites in other languages has been finding liaisons. (The #2 hardest thing has been fighting with tooling we built to support liaisons before determining what we actually needed. Hence my reluctance to commit to building anything until we got actual people to use it.) So yeah, this is why I'm starting with a fairly open-ended meta post here, and not a proposal.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 22:39
  • 62
    While I'm not a native English speaker, I'd prefer everyone sticking to English while on this site simply because I'd like to take part in conversations/chats etc. without requiring a liasion or having to resort to a translator. And okaying this in chat will definitely propagate this behaviour towards questions and their answers.
    – Ash
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 1:41
  • 19
    It seems to me that most programmers speak English -- programming languages, libraries, and documentation, are in English. You're asking SO to provide time and resources for a very small percentage of the community. And, Gujarati specifically is spoken only by 4.5% of the Indian population -- 65 millions world-wide and is the 26th most popular language in the world. If we were to support another language, it should be Mandarin, with 950 millions of speakers, 16% of the population and most popular language, or Spanish with 450 millions. Commented May 26, 2016 at 2:07
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    @Engineer Dollery: You seem to think SO traffic is distributed in the exact same proportions as the entire world. That's... decidedly not the case.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 2:37
  • 48
    I'm not native English speaker but in my opinion English is Lingo-Franco of programmers. I understand English descriptions better then Russian (which is my mother tongue). Commented May 26, 2016 at 6:10
  • 3
    @Shog9, check out my (deleted) answer below, and comments, as a demonstration (if you needed it), of the challenges of cross-cultural communication (as opposed to just 'translation'). (And I still don't understand the 'British' reference. Are you being racist?!! :))
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:00
  • 3
    If anything, this whole discussion is a clear example of a glaring language barrier. Not just in translation, context and implied intentions, but also cultural / juridic.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:28
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    Doing nothing and blaming the British sounds like a great option.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:44
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    @Pekka웃, ha! Vassal of the Spanish, pistols at dawn! :)
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 12:45
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    @Benjol no time, afk off to retake Gibraltar!
    – Pekka
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:03
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    I still think that in today's world every half way decent programmer positively needs to learn good command of english, and by creating a community where people can continue not to do that we're doing them a massive disservice.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:33
  • 3
    @DavidG: It kinda reminds you of how people who don't care about quality and would rather half-ass their contributions tend to call us elitist or something, as though quality was a negative... err, quality?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 11:44

23 Answers 23

122

I'm going to throw out something completely different:

Realistically, we probably need to do this more like Area51: get folks to commit to the role before the chatroom is created, not after it's already causing problems.

We've done this - four times in fact. I've never seen a long-term problem come from a chatroom on those sites. Granted, they're less active, but they're not deserted.

I believe that the problem we have here is that we don't have a full stack of people that can handle these issues. By a full stack, I mean everyone from new users in chat, to 10k users handling flags, to moderators and Community Managers. We have a CM who can speak Portuguese, one or two who can speak Russian, etc.

So why does en.stackoverflow need to support discussion in other languages? There's a clear path for, e.g., Russian discussion - "go to chat.ru.SO".

As you say, chat.SE has shown it can handle these issues... more sanely, at least. Having a full stack of people associated with a site, users to CMs, in that language, helps even more.

So I propose a simple rule:

  • Stack Overflow (en) Chat won't allow discussion in non-English.
  • If people still want to discuss in non-English, they can go to chat.SE
  • Ideally, there's a (language).SO site already created. If there is, make a room associated with that site. If there isn't, associate it with SO on c.SE.

By funneling all non-English discussion to chat.SE, we gain all of the moderation expertise and multilingual ability that the wider network has to offer, and we lose... nothing. Rooms on c.SO have no advantage over their counterparts on c.SE, other than being one click closer, and having worse moderation.

And we can sidestep all the drama, stress, and development work that a quasi-election would put on the community.

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    I like this idea. Move non-English chat over to where we already support and moderate non-English chat... So simple :D
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 6:31
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    So where am I supposed to chat in <Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew, French, ...>? Currently, people who speak these languages do have the option of using a chatroom, with this proposal, that is gone, unless an SO in that specific language gets launched.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:13
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    @Oded: Undo covered that: "Ideally, there's a (language).SO site already created. <...> If there isn't, associate it with SO on c.SE."
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:18
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    Sounds like a good idea, but what happens when lesser-spoken languages start getting flags in their rooms over on SE? Particularly languages which none of the moderators or CMs speak? What happens when they run into the same problem as we have now, with people deliberately flagging non-abusive non-English messages as abusive, just because they can?
    – Rob Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 9:52
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    @Rob they should move those rooms to reddit. Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:03
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    Further on this, is there a reason why SO chat is separate from the rest of the network at all?
    – TRiG
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:07
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    @Rob If a room on c.SE is causing issues, repeatedly, there's no reason we can't still tell them to leave - but we do have more flexibility with more moderators being likely to speak the language... and, quite frankly, more moderators with more time and patience for chat issues. We might still have to kick a few foreign-language rooms off the network completely, but that's better than kicking all of them off.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 14:14
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    An important aspect of this answer is that site moderators have a clear path forward if this becomes the policy. Chats with a language not matching the main site are squashed. (Or migrated? Don't know if chats can be migrated.) No debate or inconsistency. But the users aren't totally out of luck: the mod can provide them with guidance about where they can put the chat. You might argue that this is just "kicking the can down the road," but the point is to kick it to somewhere it can actually be managed instead of just thrown in the trash.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 10:48
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    Moving non English rooms to chat.SE will definitely bring less traffic to the rooms than in chat.SO. StackOverflow is a multicultural place and banning languages other than English seems racist. "It's hard to moderate" isn't a valid reason: you don't hear police saying that you can't speak in Russian in America because we can't tell if you are saying something racist. Commented May 28, 2016 at 16:20
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    @Derek朕會功夫: Language is not a race.
    – Cerberus
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 16:23
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    @Derek朕會功夫: Apart from the fact that the 18/19th-century theory about human races is rather unscientific and should perhaps be abolished, I don't see why a race should have a "default" language. What are the default languages of the black, white, red, and yellow races, in your opinion? I think "race" is a red herring in many debates and shouldn't be brought up. I do think you may have a point about allowing other languages in SO chat, but I think it's best discussed in neutral terms.
    – Cerberus
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 17:50
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    Nobody is restricting "cultures". SO has every right to (dis)allow any language it needs to. Since simply allowing all languages doesn't work, something has to change.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 22:01
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    There is no proof that moderators routinely make better decision than room owners. In all the room I have been in, room owner routinely do more work to keep the room functional than all the moderators combined. All I am hearing is that "we don't trust room owners no matter who they are". A bit silly assumption really. All the arguments are about how we can not trust room owners because they are not moderators and only moderators can make the right decision. While some room owners routinely make bad decisions, others were responsible, trustworthy and consistently making sound decisions.
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 17:01
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    @Telkitty No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I trust many room owners; but in these cases (foreign-language rooms) it's fairly obvious that trusting room owners alone simply isn't working - otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 19:39
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    @Telkitty You're acting like there would be significant long term consequences. There aren't. Some people might have to learn english, some people might have to migrate to a different one of the roughly 100k chat services out there. Its not SE's problem and I don't like the idea of making it theirs.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:43
55

From a mod's perspective :

We can't moderate what we don't understand.

Now, we all know that SO has a set of guidelines and rules that we all have to adhere to. Every person has some kind of responsibility. Moderators are expected to keep SO clean from the gibberish that is posted continually and ensure that this site functions properly. When messages that don't make sense are flagged for our attention, we have but 2 options :

  1. Dismiss the flag. (Invalid flag)
  2. Suspend / talk to the person on whose message this flag was raised. (valid flags)

We can't ignore flags that we don't understand. For all we know, a particular message could be a racist or sexist / rude / abusive. We just don't know. Now, how can we handle it?. Sometimes ROs themselves might not be in the room (to handle the situation), so expecting the people in the room (where the flag was raised) or the ROs to handle any misunderstanding is not a good idea. Now, if things get flagged frequently, mods will have to act and freeze those rooms not because there was something wrong with what was being posted but because there is no way for us to know what those messages mean.

Why should chat be any different from the main site?

Just because we have fewer people using chat doesn't make it different from the main site. All the rules that apply to the main site also apply to chat. Just because rules are not enforced too strictly in chat doesn't mean that they are not applicable. What do we do on SO if we see a question is asked in a language that we don't know?. Ideally, anything that is posted in chat should also be valid on the main site.

What could be the right solution?

IMO, rooms should stick to English so that any flags that are raised from those rooms can be easily dealt with and more importantly the probability that the right action will be taken is very high. Also note that anyone can enter a room and say anything. We are also against random people entering random chatrooms and posting random stuff in random languages. Sticking to English in chatrooms helps moderators in fixing misunderstandings easily and accurately (we don't want to freeze rooms, but you guys are hardly giving us a choice). Finally,

We are not doing this for some sort of political reason (as some people in non-English chatrooms keep mentioning). Also, the British have nothing to do with this (in case that wasn't obvious).

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    rules can definitely be relaxed for the chat site. its more of a social aspect to every developer rather then the main Q/A site. not allowed even to say hi/hello in native language is stupid!
    – Shubhank
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:30
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    @Shubhank - I completely agree. That's why we don't keep suspending people from chat for trivial things. Salutations and "Hi's" are OK. But long conversations in other languages is not good because we won't understand them.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:08
  • @ArthTilva - And how many times did we request you to use English?. after you get the idea or meaning of that chat which was flagged -> we will have to do the "please use English in long conversations" routine again.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:10
  • agree but what could be done from the community side to enforce these rules. mod generally steps in and ask us to use english but people revolt since it appear as sudden drama. When the room is full of people who share a non english language, its pretty hard for the RO (like me) to moderate everyone to use english. there are moments when everyone can get just comfortable in native and it extends to a long discussion. it can be moderated but usually mods kinda act seriously on a situation like simply freezing.
    – Shubhank
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:25
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    Can't we have a faq link which says use english. Patience is really tested when you know only mods are enforcing this rule and have to just quote them and not SO.
    – Shubhank
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:26
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    @Shubhank - The real issue is we can either have a moderated system or an unmoderated system. A "mixture-of-both" option is just an illusion. Non-English chatrooms were never a problem until we started seeing offensive messages. Since we have to fix this issue, we are doing what we think is right. The whole idea of posting this meta question was to ask opinions and answers from the community and fix this issue. My question is who is going to take responsibility for the inappropriate content that might be posted in non-english chatrooms?
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:41
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    agree, i tried to raise up the question of having the indians.stackexchange but was told that localised sites are on hold. Since this whole question is kind of revolving around the indian community, cant we have that and contest elections there. i believe indians comprised the second highest userbase of the site by country.
    – Shubhank
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:46
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    @Shubhank - Since this whole question is kind of revolving around the indian community -> You guys are making it revolve around the Indian community. We are trying to fix what could potentially be major problem in the days to come. We are not saying stop using Indian languages. We are saying that using languages other than the most common one (English) will only cause problems. I am not sure if newly elected mods can fix the same issue.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:53
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    @Shubhank - Hypothetically, if we had a SO chat only for Indian languages and some person started posting content in tamil, telegu, konkani, kannada, malayali etc, how would you handle it? . You can't ignore it. And we can't have 22 moderators.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:55
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    @Shubhank - "just the one that community want " -> What if 22 communities wanted their languages to be supported? (could happen). How would that problem be any different from the one we are having right now?
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 12:06
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    20 people want to become mod, only few are selected. I dont see how we cant apply the same principle here. Hindi is the national language of india and its known by > 90% of the people in indian know that.
    – Shubhank
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 12:08
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    @Shubhank Creating localised versions of the sites involves lots of dev work and hiring a CM with substantial backend access - that alone makes it almost undesirable for SE. Now think of who this would enable to use the site - Indian programmers who don't speak english. Thats a ridiculously small user group. I think the improvement we could make is start strictly enforcing the english only policy on chat. People will get used to it and those that don't (the aforementioned small minority) will leave, which isn't bad since they can't add to the english Q/A on main anyways.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:29
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    Offtopic:It's definitely less than 90% and quora.com/…. Infact I dare say it's not more than 50%. Commented May 30, 2016 at 7:04
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    @Shubhank If you create something new, you need to think about what it adds. Indians who can already speak english (the majority of Indian developers) won't benefit alot from this site - they can already use SO. The people who can't are a subset of indian developers (a group of people with just about the highest english speaking rate, period.) who cannot speak english and have no desire to learn it, yet have a desire to consult online Q/A. I do believe thats a minority small enough to not necessitate the creation of such a site.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 14:10
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    Also, the British have nothing to do with this (in case that wasn't obvious). this made my day
    – JAAD
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 7:44
41

Maybe SO chat moderation should be prioritised through SO users, but I don't see why chat.stackexchange.com and chat.stackoverflow.com have to be moderated in complete isolation.

This stood out to me in your post:

  • Chat StackOverflow does not have hundreds of moderators / high-rep users who read and understand a variety of languages

  • Chat Stack Exchange does have hundreds of moderators and high-rep users who read and understand a variety of languages

It sounds to me like StackOverflow Chat actually does have access to hundreds of moderators and high-rep users who read and understand a variety of languages... it's part of the Stack Exchange network.

So if we do want to have multilingual SO Chat, can't reputable Stack Exchange users who moderate chat on Stack Exchange also have the option to handle moderation flags on SO chat rooms?

Does chat moderation on SO require programming knowledge? As far as I'm aware, moderation of chat mainly deals with things along the line of abusive language, insults, trolling, etc.

Can't we share the moderation load with the human resources already available through Stack Exchange?

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    Only People with 10k on SO can help in the SO chat, while for SE chat it is any site 10k
    – Ferrybig
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 6:31
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    @Ferrybig - Exactly... why does it matter what SE site the rep was earned on? Trusted users on SE Chat can be trusted on SO chat as well. Commented May 26, 2016 at 6:42
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    @misterManSam: How about the other way around? Imo, either open it up both ways, or not at all.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 6:43
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    @Cerbrus - Sure! That's why I say they don't need to be moderated in isolation. They are on the same platform with the same rules! Why are they treated like a different planet? Commented May 26, 2016 at 6:44
  • @Ferrybig actually is "if the sum of all your reputation of any site (sans SO) is over 10k"
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 18:19
  • @Braiam SO reputation is counted on SE chat, so you can have 10k on SO and 101 everyone else, but still have 10k privs on SE chat. It's only isolated SE -> SO, not the other way around.
    – Seth
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 0:47
  • @Seth what are you saying and where I got it wrong?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:19
  • @Braiam Maybe I misunderstood your comment, but I thought you were saying SO reputation doesn't count for SE chat privileges?
    – Seth
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:22
  • @Seth it doesn't. Why would you think it does?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:24
  • @Braiam Because I've chatted with users that have 2 accounts. 1 on SO with >20 rep and 1 on AU with 1 rep. In AU chat. Happened multiple times. Took me a little while each time to figure out how they could be chatting.
    – Seth
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:26
  • @Seth I've never seen that. Actually, mostly the contrary.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:38
  • @Seth see meta.stackexchange.com/a/87773/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:44
  • @Braiam Well I have.. so odd. Although I do know you can't get into SO chat with >20 rep on SE.. I have seen it work the other way however. Same as diamond moderator privs. I don't get anyone on SO chat, but the SO moderators get it on SE chat.
    – Seth
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:48
  • @Seth that's because they need to get into the TL.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 2:15
26

People never understand why moderation is necessary: "can't we all just be friends? We don't need any of your [imperialistic|patriarchal|totalitarian] 'oversight'!" But invariably, these are NOT the people who have to 'carry the can' and clear up the mess afterwards.

I absolutely defend the right of @Shog and team to take this decision, because they're on the front line. I applaud this attempt to brainstorm a solution together, but unless (as he says) people (and the right people) step up to the plate, I think that 'repression' is better than cure.

In the current context which is apparently tense, with undertones of suspicion and 'anti-imperialism', things have gone beyond the simple question of 'translation'. Clearly in the answers and comments here there are people who DO understand the words, but who are imputing unwritten motivations all the same.

For any of my Indian friends who may believe that the defenders of 'English only' are all racist, and deliberately seeking to exclude you: quite simply, I don't believe this is the case.

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    I'd avoid generalizing to all Indians (or any other group, for that matter), I'm pretty sure we're seeing a small but stubborn minority. Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:45
  • To Teach is To Learn Twice. Give Freedom and Take Responsibility. because freedom will increase your responsibility. It will be better to us take responsibility to chat with any language but don't misbehave. Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:48
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    @AndrasDeak, this is meta, they don't have the monopoly on small and stubborn minorities :)
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:03
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    Yes, sure, but if I were a member of a large group with a very small number of problematic specimens, and the whole group was wrongfully labelled as problematic, I'd be pissed. Not offended, but pissed. Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:29
  • 1
    @AndrasDeak, something like "Also, folks appear to be blaming the British, and while it probably is their fault in some way"? :)
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:38
  • @AndrasDeak, and just to be clear: I am not pissed by what Shog wrote because: a) I'm quite aware I may have misunderstood, b) I realise that it could quite possibly be a joke, and c) I don't feel a particular need to defend the 'British'. a) b) and c) are all available and possible to non-native English speakers.
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:45
  • 2
    For one, I kind of assumed that Shog was joking:) Furthermore, just because some kids are pulling your hair, you shouldn't go around pulling the hair of innocent third parties. Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:45
  • @AndrasDeak, better with the edit?
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:46
  • Perfect, thanks. Just to be clear: pulling the hair (giving wedgies to, etc...) to those who do the same to you is perfectly fine, my issue was with making statements about innocent guys who just as much want this to work as we do:) Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:48
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    @AndrasDeak, ok, but also let's not descend into politically correct doublespeak either. Simply by the sheer number of users from India, even the relatively small help-vampire contingent has seemed overwhelming at times. There is a cultural as well as linguistic problem here. More than can fit into a comment :)
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:16
  • 2
    I completely agree, it's also why I emphasized that I'm not concerned about anybody getting "offended" (a plague of our times), but genuine frustration of innocent users. I honestly can't tell how representative the rebelling users are, just wanted us to be more careful:) Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:32
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    This is anecdotal and probably unfair, but I know 3 developer (apprentices) who were born in india but live here in germany. None of them admit to being from India on SO or other sites and forums, because Indians according to them have a notorious reputation of being bad at coding.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:39
  • 5
    @Benjol - The "blaming the British" bit may have been a joking reference to someone who started trolling the site during this argument with comments like "Come help me hack this website and delete it I think it does not like me because I am the Indian person and therefore these British people will discriminate they simply downvote my questions because I am an Indian fellow therefore we should hack them together and su them for the racial discrimination."
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 14:17
  • @BradLarson my brain farted reading that :(
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 18:18
  • @BradLarson Ah thanks for mentioning that , I was also wondering about the random British reference. All makes sense now.
    – Alicia
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 9:50
14

Since this question focuses on how we can support : I have posted below many approach to solving this situation with pros and cons of stuff that we need to think before making them official

English Only Rooms

There has already been enough focus on how a good programmer already require English to become a skilled one and therefore no point in repeating that. Everyone can just use English and the whole situation can be solved once and for all.

Contrary to the other answers, there is nothing as poor english of people, that is only a relative term. A person can learn and become good in any language within a span of time so this answer does not say i don't know how to speak english/my english is poor.

Pros

  • Everyone knows english (does not matter broken or top notch).

Cons

  • Well, the real problem exist when people with a common non english get together in a room. In a room full of people from different subcontinents of the world, there is simply no chance of everyone understanding each other native language. But what if there are 30 people in a room and everyone knows a common non-english language. There is no denying they share common interest, language and normally will be inclined to have a healthy non english discussion. This is not faced by maybe the other folks, but happens a lot in our Indian community at least. Every programmer kinds of understand 6-8 weeks, Jon Skeet and other jokes cause they share that interest. Same for us, there are certain memes that are non english and each one like to share: we do not want to trouble the community but there are things that are fun in Indian language and we would like to be able to use it without any fear of "Mods jumping on us and saying to us what does it mean(stern look)" :D

2. Maybe a Indian.StackExchange ?

Well, first reactions will definitely be what does Indian have to do with this question/we are thinking for a common solution and things.

Answer :

Sites for many other language already exist like chinese/portugal/russian. Don't know why they were not asked the same question : Why we make only chinese subsite or russian.

There have been many instances when this question was asked, it was related to Indian rooms. The recent spree of flags have been targeting rooms related to Indian languages plus the most number of rooms frozen on the stack network are probably Indian too. Indians comprise the second highest user base for the site by country and therefore this thing will become indian soon even if it is not.

P.S

Why indians room are problematic include how we write it. French/Vietnamese can be written and translated simply using Google. Even if we write hindi in its actual form नमस्ते it can be translated in English. We actually write it in english which just translates to gibberish from Google :)

Pros - Well Indian language is supported :)

Cons - I really dont have that much knowledge to really explain all the cons this will have and therefore is actually in favour of scraping this idea. No point in making the guys work and the idea fails and there is no one to take the blame. I don't know who will take care of that site, will users be interested or not, so this is left for the management team to decide what to do with it.


3. Make the current system better (My recommendation)

I have already explained it in the comments previously but will go on to make it properly fledged here. The current problem is flags arise for non-english language but we don't know what to do. Some people do not care about flags, some didn't noticed, some care to go and ask the situation and some just validate it right away. There are situations when the room is gallery only and that's when people are at a lost of how to moderate. Of course, moderator has to really rise up to this occasion and take action almost every time. Generally the doubt should go in favour of the room, we expect everyone to be nice just like us but there are times when the room is gallery and people are just not able to discuss and therefore at a loss of how to moderate.

Solution : Allow Non-English room creation to maybe 10k+/15k+ user. There is a very high probability the user knows how to behave, how to moderate, site policies etc and therefore can act as a proper bridge b/w the english and non english users. Plus a room automatically changes to public as long it has flags pending. There should be a link in room description of all non-english chat room which allow people to read up the policies and then send a review if they are not happy with the room so that moderation is easy. If there is a serious issue going on such as people are in danger - this will really be used by people in my opinion.

I don't have much idea of how to actually implement this at the development level but this can be thought of how to implement if the idea is accepted.

Pros

  • Everyone is happy, there is a healthy community which knows each other responsibilities and everyone plays along

Cons

  • What if the 10k+ user deliberately tries to hide things. What if the good guy turns bad. This is kind of a similar solution to the other answers but they do not answer it while i try to do so here : Well 10k+ user generally have done enough hard work to reach this trusted state, if we implement this as a serious punishment for the 10k+ user in case of misuse, 95% chance he would be careful and would be very supporting in case of flags. Not everyone would like to put his rep on line.

4. Using Undo's suggestion

Pros - Already given in his answer

Cons No one really discussed it yet but i would like to do it now.

  • Well, we can't really move all the rooms there can we ? There are tons of languages and moving each one of them will be problematic, the chat might simply seem spam.
  • Do moderator exist there for each language. It is being assumed there will be, what if there isn't? Will the question be again asked what to do with non-english language if we can't moderate it even on SE chat.
  • What happens to the 10k+ user on SE. Granted by this solution we won't have flags that are just left pending for days or unignored but what happens when they are there for an hour. There are tons of user on that site who might be 10k+, they don't know what to do with flags. Are we really going to just change the people who are annoyed with non english flags. They won't be SO but SE folks now.
  • Will implementation be easy ? Let's say a user joins SO now, creates a room. 5 days later - flag - mods jump in- moves him over to SE. are we still going to trouble the mods for this ? this solution does not help them to make anything easy for them. They might be just going around migrating people now.

That said aside, i would like to clarify i might have missed some fundamental things here. I do not state that i am up to date with everything going around SO, there are people who have been here far more then me and know about certain caveats that i do not know. Please let me know if things are there and i will be happy to change any relevant point in my answer.

5
  • great for that @Shuhank Commented May 30, 2016 at 4:56
  • 4
    I am thoroughly confused by the quotations here.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 18:13
  • 1
    mind pointing out few @BoltClock ? will be happy to edit the answer.
    – Shubhank
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 18:27
  • 1
    Everything in blockquote here, @Shubhank. Near as I can tell, none of them are quotations. I assume you're just doing it for emphasis, but the effect is as though you've randomly sprinkled your post with, "I heard someone say," and then followed it with your own thoughts - it's distracting and weird. Use headers: meta.stackoverflow.com/editing-help#headers
    – Shog9
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 21:01
  • 1
    @Shubhank: 2. Maybe a Indian.StackExchange ? Won't be a good idea, because in India there is no common language. All states of india have different languages. So in that site also the same problem will occur :)
    – Midhun MP
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 11:56
11

I agree with all the moderators and other folks that English should be used on the main Stack Overflow site.

On the other hand, from my perspective, Stack Overflow chat helps solve problems which aren't asked on the main site, allowing us to get opinions or suggestions from other users.

As a newbie, it is possible that I could ask a silly question on Stack Overflow and get downvotes. To avoid that, I can ask those questions in SO chat.

And I don't think anyone will see chat history of others to resolve their own issues.

We should allow languages other than English, at least in Stack Overflow chat. It is useful for knowledgeable developers who are not very good with English.

Solution, in my opinion:

Chat room admins should have control of flagged messages, and be able to validate flags without interrupting other users. To balance this, we should restrict the ability to create chat rooms or to become an admin to users with reputation > 10K.

21
  • 8
    Chat is not a "trash can for questions that aren't of sufficient quality for SO". SO has tried to support non-english chat rooms multiple times, and it never really worked. If you can think of a way to make it work, please add that to the answer... All I can say is most major rooms have a policy against so-called "Help vampires". They usually come down to: "You can ask a question in this room, as long as you also contribute to the room" (Massively simplified)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:24
  • 1
    yes totally agree with you, but what if person is having masive knowledge but cannot speak proper english? SO will not allow him to share his/her knowledge? Person can only share knowledge it he/she knows english,that is not fair enough in my opinion.
    – Ravi
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:30
  • 7
    @Cerbrus what I think is chat.SO and SO both are different sites ... SO is publicly available for Q&A .. So use english is must but when it comes to chat.SO, It is not publicly open for every one as there is option for owner to access users ... they can share knowledge in native if someone needs help .. whats wrong in that ... Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:33
  • 3
    Chat.SO is a sub-site of SO, just like meta.SO is. It is part of Stack Overflow, and as such, it makes sense for the rules that apply to SO, also to apply to chat.SO (they also apply to meta.SO). If someone wants to share programming knowledge, he'll want to share it with as many people as possible. A room with just 10-20 people isn't a lot. There are programming sites out there in every language that get way more visitors than a non-English room here gets.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:41
  • 1
    than give just one room ... why have a different room for different people ... simple thing is if other language rooms are available and owner has rights to allow only native users than they can share knowledge in native as every member of that room knows the language .. otherwise just no need of owner and no need for multiple rooms ... give one room with different channels and allow every users ... not to restrict other users Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:47
  • One room? With all non-English chat?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:53
  • 1
    yes ... one room ... one site ... one language ... no restriction for users to join in Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:54
  • 1
    @Bhavin: "one language ... no restriction" Eh? "One language" is a restriction. I'm not sure what you're trying to say now.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:57
  • What I said is ... if site is in english than there would be only one room with english and all users can join the chat in english without any owner... thats simple @Cerbrus .. and "One language" is resriction ... yes thats what u want ... than make only one room for english and I said "no restriction for users to join in" ... check that too Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:59
  • totally agreed with this answer, Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:59
  • 1
    yes one room for each programming language, like there will be only single room for java then one for php and so on, what is need of multiple rooms than? and why SO is giving rights to create rooms?
    – Ravi
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:00
  • 5
    one to one discussion??? than don't allow third one to join and if discussion needs more users than go for a main chat site ... Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:06
  • 2
    Sometimes moderators playing freeze/unfreeze with the groups then who will moderate them? I have seen that they are doing chat with bad words also because they have power to moderate any thing? Is it really have do with them or not? Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:28
  • 3
    @PratikButani You should really get someone who can use grammar in english to proof read your statements or translate for you. For normal people what you write is almost entirely gibberish or close to it, which is a shame since I would like to hear your arguments.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:35
  • 1
    @Alicia I'm not a native speaker, and I had severe issues with getting the point in the first couple of revisions, and I'm having difficulty parsing some of the comments. Do you mind translating and/or fixing some of that?
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 14:04
9

I've moderated a lot of chatrooms in my past life. From small ones to extremely large ones (with over 750.000 members on it). From that experience I can tell that moderating a chat is something completely different than moderating a site like Stack Overflow. There are several problems to considder:

  • Abusive and/or vulgair language
  • Discussions that get out of control
  • Members challenging moderators to see how far they can go
  • Members online around the clock
  • Personal relationships between moderators and members (it's not so easy to stand up against a good friend as it is to a stranger)

And the list goes on. What I'm trying to say with this is that having chatrooms supporting multiple languages, means having a large group of moderators. Not all problems can be solved by a simple warning or removal from the chat in question. There are situations where a moderator has to get involved for a longer amount of time to deal with it. You'll need at least 3 or even 5 moderators for each specific language to deal with problems in a reasonable amount of time.

Stack Overflow will have to be reworked a lot (unless what I'm about to say is already possible). All those moderators have to be informed about open flags for their specific language chat only. There's no reason to give them moderative capabilities over Stack Overflow in general. Neither should they be able to moderate other chatrooms. It's not like a matter of trusting them or not. It's a simple matter of preventing a huge mess when everyone is losing track of who is doing what and where.

Personally I think it would be a great project to undertake, but it requires a lot of planning. Especially on how to deal with such a large group of moderators (there are A LOT of different languages out there). Perhaps a rule like "There has to be a x amount of members from a specific country" is needed before a chat for that specific language is even possible.

6
  • 1
    So, say you have 5 moderators from the Netherlands. They will all be in the same timezone, so the room won't be covered 24/7. What if one or more of them go on vacation for a while? Just throwing more mods at the current situation isn't going to solve the problem.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 6:26
  • @Cerbrus There are quite a lot of people that live / work during nighttime. You don't just simply pick 5 random people to mod. You make a plan to see at what times those mods are available etc. Vacation will always be an issue. With 5 mods, chances are smaller that all 5 of them will be gone at the same time. If it does happen, there's always the option to temporarily freeze the room.
    – icecub
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 12:52
  • Temporarily freezing the room is not an option. If we're going to support non-English languages, we can't support them part-time. Either support them full-time, or don't bother at all.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 13:10
  • @Cerbrus Agreed. But the only way to make sure the rooms can always be covered is having even more mods per room to reduce the chance of all of them be gone at the same time. Even planning vacations accordingly might be nessesary. But you can't ever be 100% sure there will always be mods.
    – icecub
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 13:23
  • You miss the easy: if we don't support the other languages, this is a non issue. (not saying it's the best way. But this way you can be 100% sure there is always a mod able to act.)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jun 1, 2016 at 15:45
  • @Patrice If you want to make something good even better, you'll have to expend your horizon. Stack Overflow is still a part of a company and companies want to grow. For a company it's always the easy way out to decide simply not to do it. I'm not saying they should do it. I'm saying they should come up with a well founded plan first, present that to the community, and then get feedback on it. Right now it's just getting opinions on who likes the idea and who doesn't. With this many members, there's just to many different opinions to begin with.
    – icecub
    Commented Jun 2, 2016 at 15:15
8

Oh come on, not the dead horse language discussion yet again...

To begin with, I should mention that I'm not a native English speaker.

Here are some facts about the programmer profession:

  • If you don't know basic English, you will struggle to understand the meaning of keywords, functions and libraries in every existing programming language in the world, since they are all using English. All necessary tools like compilers and debuggers will be in English.
  • If you don't know basic English, you will not be able to read any manual, documentation or standard. Being a professional programmer in any programming branch involves reading plenty of technical documentation in English. There is no way around it.
  • If you don't know basic English, you will not be able to communicate with other programmers. Programming is a global profession. Support will most likely be in English. Stack Overflow is in English.

There is absolutely no doubt that you need to know basic English to function as a programmer. You will barely be able to use the Internet if you don't know basic English.

This is how the harsh reality of the world looks. If you want to hug your national language because of political, nationalist or laziness reasons - tough luck, you'll be a worse programmer because of it.

This is how the world looks and it is no fault of SO. It is not SO's mission or responsibility to "fix the world".


Apart from the utter fundamentals mentioned above, there are other aspects. If you don't know basic English, you might miss out on the best books/tutorials for a certain technology.

Being a non-native English speaker myself, I can look back at when I studied programming myself. In retrospect, plenty of the books that I used to read in my native language were of poor quality. Either the translation was bad (not made by a programmer) or the author was bad (some local author of questionable talent).

Similarly, if you only visit some native language version of SO, you'll miss out some of the best programmers in the world. A native language version will always have a smaller audience.

I think it's pretty amazing that I can ask a question about some obscure detail in a rarely used library function, and get an in-depth answer by some expert who works with that particular function every day.

This is only possible because of the wide, global audience.

Therefore, every native language version of SO that opens up is a failure, not a success. Suppose the only person who can answer my question would be happy to help me, but he only visits his native language site. And there you have it: SO fails its fundamental mission of providing Q&A.

There are also programming problems and bugs that are exposed locally, but needs to be solved globally. Symbol tables and "locale" etc. Programmers from other countries can provide feedback of "locale" issues that you had no idea that they even existed.


I don't think SO should undermine its own mission of providing good, programming-related Q&A, by offering native language support in any way.

18
  • 3
    A good bit more harsh then I would phrase it, but you're absolutely right. Im not a native speaker either, but english is the only way in programming atm.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:39
  • 1
    I think the question is about chat. What if a non-native speaker wants to use chat to formulate their question in English? Commented May 30, 2016 at 16:04
  • Knowing "basic English" doesn't mean he/she can properly compose a whole question in English. Yes if you don't know English (or if you ONLY know "basic English") there is a high chance that you're a bad coder, but isn't it (one of) the point to invite those people to join SE, to learn, to improve, and eventually to share? A native chat room is a good place for people to make themselves feel comfortable and confident before posting questions on main site.
    – Passerby
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 16:31
  • 3
    I can't speak for everyone @Passerby, but I don't downvote based on spelling alone. The main problem is that people with poor english skills overwhelmingly also miss other aspects of the question composition, and thus their question is bad. When there is a rough diamond buried underneath a pile of grammar errors, many users will take the time to polish it. That rarely happens though.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 19:25
  • Similar to another answer, I'd suggest you read Can't We All be Reasonable and Speak English?. We've had this debate time and time again over whether SE should provide localized Stack Overflow sites -- that should give you some more context on why SE believes native sites are a good solution.
    – hichris123
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 20:45
  • @hichris123: that blog post is over 2 years old already. It's talking about localizing SO, it doesn't even mention chat, which is a completely different scenario altogether. You're missing the point of this meta question: Chat in other languages can't be moderated effectively.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 20:52
  • @Cerbrus I think you should read this answer, which states at the end "I don't think SO should undermine its own mission of providing good, programming-related Q&A, by offering native language support in any way." It seems that this answer is more about keeping SE English-only than it is about chat -- which is why I provided the link for reading. (furthermore, I think that blog post has some parallels to this discussion, so it's a good idea to read it anyway)
    – hichris123
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 20:57
  • "Any way" can also include chat.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 20:58
  • If you really want to discuss this @Cerbrus, I think chat is much better than comments: I'm usually in the Tavern.
    – hichris123
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 20:59
  • @Magisch That's why a native chat room is good in that case -- you don't just "bravely" post questions and make other people guess what you actually meant, you go in chat room first.
    – Passerby
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 2:20
  • @S.L.Barth Teaching English isn't the purpose of SO. Maybe they can open a chat at ell.stackexchange.com.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 6:10
  • @Passerby I did on purpose write "basic" all over the post, as emphasis that you just need to make yourself understood. We can't demand fluent English, spelling and grammar can be fixed with edits. As long as the question itself is on-topic and following SO policies, that's all that should matter.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 6:13
  • Shall I remind you of a number of branches of programming tied to specific regions (including very large regions like Russia/CIS) with the primary language (even for source code in some cases) other than English? Commented May 31, 2016 at 8:16
  • 1
    @ivan_pozdeev There's no such thing. Which language was their programming language based on? English. Which language is their tools using? English. What language is all libraries, APIs and documentation in? English. I very much doubt the source code is in the native language, even if you think so. Or is there actually an existing programming language which is accepting for example Cyrillic letters for keywords and identifiers?
    – Lundin
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 8:38
  • 1
    Speaking from experience from doing one particular programming project in my own native language: really dumb mistake. The whole source code ended up useless and had to be pretty much rewritten from scratch when we had to port it to an English code base. And when it was re-written, bugs were introduced. Writing it in the native language turned out to be nothing but a huge waste of time for everyone involved. It made the code burdensome and dangerous for no gain whatsoever.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 8:43
3

As per my opinion for SO chat non-English languages should be allowed. We generally use chat for quick response. I saw many non-English speaking people can't explain their problem or describe the solution properly in English.

Solution for this situation is a RO should have authority to see and validate those flags if those flags are really spam or abusive then they warn that user for 1st time if that users continues to doing that a RO can permanently block him for that room.

11
  • 1
    What if no RO is online when someone is posting offensive messages in the room? Then there's no-one to handle the flags. 10k+ users can already see and (in)validate flags.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:53
  • 1
    10k+ users can already see and (in)validate flags. In validating flags RO should be involved.
    – Kaushik
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:57
  • And RO can already do that. Some times, it will take hours before an RO comes in. That's not ideal.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:58
  • 1
    Thats why I ask for that user's permanent block when it is offensive
    – Kaushik
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:01
  • 2
    Do you really think a room owner should have that kind of power? Great power comes with great responsibility... History tells us not everyone can handle the responsibility.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:03
  • 4
    for that particular room not from SO
    – Kaushik
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:04
  • @Cerbrus i am unable to explain my problem in room in english, so what should i do, tell me Commented May 26, 2016 at 9:48
  • 1
    @AditayKaushal: take a look at Undo's suggestion. With that, you will be able to chat in your own language, if you want to.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 9:49
  • 1
    actually @Cerbrus ... ROs don't automatically gain the flag handling privilege. It's just that the majority of ROs already has 10k
    – Vogel612
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 14:03
  • I never said they do...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 14:03
  • 1
    Room owner management has been tried, and it doesn't always work out even in English. In the situation I linked to, users were intentionally or subconsciously avoiding bad behavior when the room owners were around, resulting in massive chains of arguments and inappropriate behavior when they next returned. It eventually became unmanageable, resulting the StackOverflow staff having to intervene. Adding in the factor of an additional language makes it even harder to manage this kind of behavior. Your suggestion is not the solution. -1
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 23:38
1

It's simple really. This discussion should be more about the philosophical and cultural implications rather than technical possibility.

When you make a commitment towards coding and the current set of languages you know are not enough to go down that path, it makes sense to learn enough of the current, most popular language used by other developers simply so you can learn, contribute and make use of your skills more effectively. It just so happens that in this point of time that language is English. If in 20 years time, it happens to be Mandarin or Gujarati, I'll be reading translations of all my fantasy/science-fiction books in that language, essentially learning that language, before I complain about not being to participate or contribute.

While it's, CLEARLY, possible to code without doing so, that's essentially an incomplete commitment; just doing enough to get you across the line. It'd be the equivalent of learning half the features of a language you code in and no coder wants to be labelled a bad coder (WRT @Magisch's comment earlier).

Most people who have trouble with English already speak enough English to get an idea across, to read or write up (some semblance of) documentation. But the question here is what's stopping you from getting better? I'd think of it as doing myself, and not the community, a favour. You've already picked up PHP/Java/C#/T-SQL etc. Add English to the list.

1

I'm a Spanish speaker, there's more people in the world who are native Spanish speakers than native English speakers but English is the most adopted second language around the world. I work in Dubai and I didn't need to learn Arabic, everybody here speaks enough English to survive, people from Latin America, Spain, France... Russia, India, Pakistan, Philippines... everybody speaks their language and English as a Second language. So, I believe there's no need to officially support Stack Overflow in other languages because in programming and computer science if you don't speak at least a very basic english... you're lost.

2
  • FYI, the top language in the world by the number of native speakers is Chinese :) Commented May 31, 2016 at 8:25
  • I know, if you read my answer you can see that I don't say English is the top one, I say is the one most people choose as a second language, so, chances are, a non-chinese person will speak English, and not Chinese.
    – iferminm
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 15:40
0

You are asking the wrong question. It shouldn't be "should we allow other languages", which by nature of the question itself may incense the passions that somehow we are trying to exclude some political group, less "how to support other languages" which obviously will be a cost to implement and maintain. The real question should be "How can we effectively moderate chat, taking into account the most disparates events?", and the "common sense" solution to that is, well, more moderators. The problem you are trying to address on this question is not isolated with clear cause-effects, but a mesh of other more subtle problems that can't be separated and "solved" individually.

I remember that one of the questions for the to-be-elected moderators is if they will pledge to moderate chat. This came into light due events that were happening on chat and spilling over to meta several times in the in-between of the elections. All of the elected moderators are present in chat, yet, you see that they cannot moderate what they don't understand. So, throwing more moderators to the problem wasn't actually a sustainable long-term solution, which was what was done in the previous election. What you need is actually more diversity of moderators, ie. not all moderators should come from SO.

So, instead of adding a layer of complexity to join chat, expecting that users follow arbitrary rules, etc. aim to create a path of least resistance, which I'm sure have worked very well in the past. This path of least resistance is something that doesn't change in first impression, but the underlaying systems are different. A perfect way to do that is just to merge chat.SO, which tend to be less moderated, with chat.SE, which by comparison is in order of magnitude more moderated and moderators have vast experiences solving the most disparates situations. As I said before, this is not a political, nor technical problem, effective moderation is normally a resource distribution problem.

-3

"And should we" - no.

SO is an English-language site, so all content officially associated with it must be in English. Otherwise, the community can no longer do its job; if I can't understand what's written, I can't respond to flags/close votes or contribute to Meta discussions about the content, whether that's in Chat or elsewhere. Putting all of that onto a handful of liaisons, however (initially?) willing they may be, doesn't seem likely to scale.

I agree that it's helpful for people whose first (or second, or third, or...) language isn't English to have a place where they can get help expressing themselves (and I do appreciate the privileged position I hold as a native English speaker), but that place doesn't have to be Stack Overflow. Perhaps, as a mid-way position, we could maintain a list of programming-related non-English forums linked from the How to Ask page in the Help Center? It would then be clearer that they are not moderated in the same way that content within this network is, and that they should be treated with the usual caution. The job of the liaisons is then to suggest sites to be added to (or removed from) the list.

5
  • +1. The major issue with relying on liaisons is that they can't possibly cover the room 24/7. What do you think of Undo's suggestion?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:03
  • 4
    @Cerbrus I think it's probably worth a try. I don't want to leave non-English speakers out in the cold per se, but I think SO is effective because it is focused and moderated, which allowing non-English content seems to me to go against.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:16
  • 1
    Sock puppeteers and plagiarists must really thrive out there. But never mind the shill voters, I shudder to imagine how much content is stolen from SO and elsewhere on the web that isn't by scraper sites...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 7:46
  • Well this seems unambiguous...
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 9:23
  • @jonrsharpe, no, it's just about time zones :)
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:10
-3

tl;dr: I like Undo's suggestion.


I'm seeing a couple of suggestions in here that are, well, problematic:

  • Lock down the creation of new rooms.
    Sure. This will (mostly) prevent users from talking in other languages. It has a lot of drawbacks, too:
    • Users won't be able to create rooms about new subjects.
    • Users won't be able to move off-topic discussions to their own rooms.
    • Users won't be able to take comment chains from SO questions to chat any more.
  • Just allow other languages.
    SO tried that. It didn't work. That's why we are having this discussion here.
  • Let Room Owners handle flags before other users / moderators can.
    This is very impractical:
    A message is flagged because it's offensive or spam. Such messages need to be removed ASAP. Waiting for a RO to come online can take too long. We can't expect to cover all rooms 24/7 with Room Owners.

A couple of answers share this suggestion / idea:

"If we can share our knowledge with the use of any language, then SO has to allow it."

To me, this seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of how Stack Overflow works.
Stack Overflow doesn't "have" to allow any other language:

Stack Overflow is an English site, no doubt about it. SO has some "child" sites: Meta & Chat.
Meta Stack Overflow is an English site.

So why shouldn't Stack Overflow Chat be an English site as well?

It's under the same domain, same staff, same user base.
The same terms of service that apply to SO apply to chat.

However,

The fact this meta question was posted is an indication that the SO team wants to work out a solution that makes everyone happy.

Undo made a very nice suggestion. Summed up, it comes down to one simple action:

  • Move non-English rooms to chat.SE

Users will still be able to chat in whatever language they please, and there will be moderation available to support you in that!

Meanwhile, chat.SO will only have English chat, so any flags raised on Chat.SO can easily by handled by the moderation available there.

I believe we're all winners with that suggestion.

11
  • 9
    Offload the hard stuff on someone else? Sounds like a win to me :)
    – Benjol
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 9:37
  • 2
    I'd love to hear some of the downvoters' opinions about this answer. Are you guys aware I'm trying to help you keep non-English rooms?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:04
  • Are you guys aware I'm trying to help you keep non-English rooms? does it mean you are thinking that all non-english persons are giving you downvotes?
    – Ravi
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:17
  • 1
    Maybe not "all", but that's what it looks like. My answer starts a little negative about some of the reasons people posted to keep English rooms. It would be a shame if users based their vote on only the first half of my answer.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:19
  • Down voted ur suggestion ,its not beneficial for us sir ,doesn't give us any profit in terms of money , its just a personal thinking of individual developer. It's the same situation like any newbie post his question on SO in poor English language and he/she getting serial Down voted from their first question because of not exploring issue correctly.Then what happen ,they refuse to appear on SO for clear their doubt !!
    – Radhey
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:29
  • 3
    @Radhe: something is going to change. That's inevitable. Undo's suggestion means you guys will still have your own language rooms. We're trying to work out something that allows non-English users to keep their rooms. How is that not in your favor?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:32
  • @Cerbrus : Thanks for your efforts and support .what ever the decision you senior people will take ,ultimately it will be good for us and SO.
    – Radhey
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:42
  • @Cerbrus: I was out for two days.. sadly seeing this issue is still on fire :p
    – kiturk3
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 8:12
  • I'm not expecting a solution within a week, to be honest.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 8:21
  • there should be a GD round for the same issue :p
    – kiturk3
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 12:50
  • 1
    Meh, I don't like decisions taken out of political correctness. Most of stuff we need to get done are, in fact, inpopular, but necessary. Making the process of room creation overly complicated just so people can be happy seems like a suboptimal solution and a potential sources of headaches. People will create their rooms anyways and will do so in the easiest way they can find.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 22:25
-4

I personally like the idea of being a liaison for a room on c.so. I'd even vouch for getting involved in something like this.

We will translate it for you before you handle the flag.

The main reason I think this is important is that being a good programmer doesn't necessarily make you good at English (This implies both ways of course). There are sometimes when non-native English speakers just can't translate the exact sentiment of the words from their native language to English. I experience that a lot of times and I think others do too. That does not make me or any non-native English speaker any less of a programmer and that does not mean we cannot contribute on SO. You could be great at reading English documentation but you still might have trouble with translating your thoughts to English perfectly.

On a platform like chat, I think its okay to allow non-English chat rooms. Moreover with the help of liaisons, these chat room flags could be effectively handled.

This conversation was initiated from this question and I was able to translate the chat messages for the OP (not sure how much it helped the OP though) and I wouldn't mind doing it in the future too. Similarly there might be many users like me who will be able to act as liaisons for other languages. We could even have at least one liaison per every non-English chat rooms of the same language to communicate. This way it will ensure that non-English messages are always translated.

This just makes c.SO available to more users and hence providing more accessibility to non-native English speakers who would like to talk in their native language.

10
  • 2
    What if the liaison isn't online when a message gets flagged? We can't just have the message stick around until he/she gets back.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 6:29
  • 3
    What if some of these users purposefully mistranslate messages to make them sound offensive. What if the opposite happens. You are essentially asking for these people to have in effect judgement over the validty of a flag.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 6:42
  • @Magisch I'd add that this doesn't have to be purposeful: the subjective opinion of the liaison can subconsciously affect their work. If a known positive contributor or friend says something that's on the fence, it's way too easy to soften the words in translation, and not even on purpose. It's how the human brain works. Commented May 30, 2016 at 11:00
  • @Cerbrus That's what happens many times though. I have seen spam sometimes stick around SO for a while before a mod can come in and actually delete it. I have seen my mod flags pending for a while (not complaining about mods, they do a great job). Sometimes flags just stay pending for a while. I believe that these kind of flags are no different.
    – Dipen Shah
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 12:01
  • @Magisch What if a mod decides to do the same for acting on a flag? Yes I believe that is what I am asking. Tell me how is a mod or people who review flags doing any different of a job then a liaison? This whole community is based on trust and mods are elected over their history on SO. The same should be done before electing liaisons.
    – Dipen Shah
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 12:04
  • @AndrasDeak I agree with you. This is why liaisons are to be carefully chosen based on some criteria which I believe the management can decide.
    – Dipen Shah
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 12:06
  • 1
    @DipenShah Moderators are elected by the community. There are few, and the ones that are there are under constant scrutiny and generally our most trusted and valued users. A couple of people with no further qualifications other then that they speak a specific foreign language and have (semi) high rep can definitely not be afforded the same level of trust.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 12:21
  • @Magisch I couldn't agree with you more. That's why these people are to be carefully elected just like how mods are elected.
    – Dipen Shah
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 12:25
  • 1
    @DipenShah I don't think more moderators (thats what you're asking for, essentially) can be the solution to this. We've had that. Mods need to escalate to CMs more then just occasionally. The CMs also need to be able to verify the moderator's actions. If we have moderators for say Hindi messages, we also need a CM in Hindi that these mods can escalate to with problems on messages in Hindi. And then we're at why its not worth hiring a CM atm again.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 12:27
  • @Magisch I guess that's something for SE to decide then. My answer more or less said that if it comes to becoming liaisons, there are people who are ready to contribute towards that direction which is what @Shog9 asked initially is anyone interested in pursuing this idea? To answer that, yes I am. Discussing about something which is not in our control makes this a bit out of context.
    – Dipen Shah
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 13:09
-5

No you should NOT

My first language is not english but learning it was the best thing I did in my life and It's been beneficial to me every second of every day. So maybe by keeping SO in it's current perfect state you could also incentivise more people to improve their English.

Right now, according to this article 53.6% of the internet is in English and the second place goes to Russian by only 6.4%. So if someone seriously needs non-english chat, they are missing out on 53% of the internet anyways.

2
  • I would suggest that you read Can't We All be Reasonable and Speak English?. I think that might give you some insight on why just shutting down all non-English chat is a bad option.
    – hichris123
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 20:37
  • @hichris123 That was my opinion based on my personal experience as someone whose first language is not english.
    – Milad.N
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 6:19
-8

Lets just keep things simple and not try to automate everything.

People should not flag a comment if they can't understand it and they are not @mentioned in it. and other people should not make the flag valid without knowing the language.

If a person is @mentioned in an unknown language by some other user, then he/she should first let the user know that he/she don't know that language. If the other user still continues, then he/she should flag that comment. Other users who know that language will validate the flag. Others who don't should just ignore the flag.

If we handle this simple things manually, that would be great.

9
  • 7
    So your answer to "How can we ensure that we can moderate chat properly?" is "Don't, its none of your business." Thats fundamentally wrong. A potentially offensive post is everyones business.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:40
  • 1
    ..wut? How it is offensive?
    – Mr_Green
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:52
  • 1
    Btw, It is none of our business if we can't understand it. Dude, why you get offensive? I heard this from many users that they get offended. Sorry, I feel that's offending to get unnecessary offended.
    – Mr_Green
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:56
  • 1
    Everything moderators and moderating users can't understand is potentially offensive. Everything flagged is potentially offensive. We can't take the chance of offensive stuff being left up, thats not debateable. So if I (or other moderating users) get presented with a flag in some non-english stuff, we almost always have to validate it. ALL chat on Stackexchange is moderated by users. We can only moderate what we can understand. Thats why non-english is disallowed now.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 16:17
  • 3
    @Mr_Green: What is a non-English message is actually extremely offensive? We just have to let it pass because it's not English, and we're not mentioned in it? That kind of apathy is dangerous. The whoole reason we're having this discussion is the fact that those messages can be offensive and have to be handled.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 18:28
  • 1
    SO is built around users helping with moderation tasks. Users are asked to and expected to intervene when they see a problem, even if they're not directly involved. This is a healthy mindset for a community to have. Your suggestion would undermine that mentality.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 9:19
  • So... What is posted on SO could very well be associated WITH SO. If someone posts a highly offensive comment (attacking, i dunno, a race/religion/creed/gender/cereal preference... I truly don't care). It should be removed, NO MATTER the language. Stack was designed around the concept of a community that moderates itself. It's weird to say "we'll moderate you if you speak our language, but won't if you don't". As someone who can speak multiple languages, I'd feel tempted to switch to French or Spanish to insult someone, if your proposal gets traction.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jun 1, 2016 at 15:43
  • @Patrice I understood Cerbrus comment above but you should read that as well. Though you are supporting right your perspective is wrong, IMO.
    – Mr_Green
    Commented Jun 1, 2016 at 17:12
  • @Mr_green Well... my point is similar to Cerbrus, so there must be a miscommunication somewhere ;) (and I did read it before posting mine)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jun 1, 2016 at 17:33
-9

This isn't really an answer, but rather an idea on the subject of multi-language chatrooms in general that is too long for a comment.

Does Google Translate have an API?

I was looking at something the other day about how someone is trying to build an earpiece that can translate words into the wearer's chosen language.

Could this same concept be used in SE's chat system somehow?

To summarize

  • All rooms have a default language
  • All users have a default language

If the user's language does not match the room's language that they are in

  • When a user posts something, it gets translated to the room language.
  • When a user reads something, it gets translated into their language.

I know translate apis are not perfect, but typically I can use Google Translate to get the general idea of something being said in another language that I read online. In fact, Chrome has translated entire webpages for me on many occasions, so I'm sure it's something that could be done. There's probably even browser add-ins that do something like this as well.

It might be something worth experimenting with, or providing as an option for people who don't speak English as their primary language.

I know it wouldn't solve your problem now of non-english chat room moderation, however it might assist. And if more non-english speakers felt they could be understood in english rooms, perhaps there wouldn't be such a need for non-english rooms in the first place.

And as a side note, if you did something like provide a way to view original message in addition to the translated message, we might all learn something about reading other languages too! :)

6
  • I've had reasonable luck using translate on, say, Portuguese answers, somewhat mixed results with Portuguese chat, absolutely abysmal results for mixed English/Gujarati chat. Slang and pidgin are hard, and of course ideoms are even harder.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 19:50
  • @Shog9 Yes, but the purpose of such a thing would be for communication primarily, similar to trying to talk to someone with their broken/poor english. I don't think it would be sufficient to solve your problem of chat moderation of non-english rooms, although perhaps it could assist. And if more non-english speakers felt they could be understood in english rooms, perhaps there wouldn't be such a need for non-english rooms. I know I've had conversations with people online via translate before, and it was good enough for me :)
    – Rachel
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 19:54
  • Why only one language? Native + English is already two, unless they coincide. Commented May 27, 2016 at 21:08
  • 1
    Try translating from Chinese to English or vice verse, you will only get gibberish out. Google Translate simply isn't mature enough for this purpose, not to mention Google Translate doesn't support some popular languages such as Cantonese. Commented May 28, 2016 at 16:26
  • @Derek朕會功夫 Ahh ok, I didn't realize :) It was just an idea I was throwing out there for consideration.
    – Rachel
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 17:19
  • The translate API, while existent, has a cost
    – Patrice
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:23
-10

Create a universal web language understood by the entire world, or not. ;-) Don't try to be everything for everyone. But, if you have the resources, it may be a good idea to support major, non-English languages.

-13

After reading a few answers, I think Stack Overflow should allow non-English languages. As some of my developer friends Praatik, RRR and other suggested in answers here, there are many options to handle non-English flags.

What I'd like to suggest:
Room Owners with more than 10k reputation are allowed to deal with flags first. If moderators, other then room owners, are allowed to deal with that flags then They should discuss the flag with the room owner first and ask them about the situation. If a moderator is not satisfied then they are free to take any action they want.

And if no room owner is present at that time, they should be given time. This is a common situation which will arise because all users will be according to their Local time, no room owner is free to be online for 24/7.

Being an Admin of one of the FROZEN Gujarati ROOM, I have never seen the flag that were done due to spam and offensive languages.

As one of the user asked for the review in meta when he didn't understood what to do, it is good. but rather than flagging it more it should be given or pass to the room owner with more than 10k.

19
  • 12
    Allowing a potentially harmful / offensive / spam message to stay for up to 24 hours seems like a very bad idea.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:20
  • @Cerbrus then what would be the good idea according to you?
    – Ravi
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:51
  • 1
    @RRR: Undo's answer.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:54
  • 5
    so in your view, the people who can't speak english, don't have any rights to use chat on SO? They must have to learn english, is it so?
    – Ravi
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:56
  • 2
    No, that is not what Undo is suggesting. Undo is suggesting moving non-English rooms to a place on the SE network where those rooms can be moderated. You'll still have a place to chat, in your language.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 8:58
  • 5
    @Cerbrus that would be good idea, what i am telling is that knowledge should not be restricted to any language. SO is realy a big network for any developer and i support it with full of my afforts but it should not be limited for language, it's ok to stick to english when asking question but not in chat.
    – Ravi
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 9:02
  • 1
    @ArthTilva: I am not a moderator. Just a user. I am improving the answer's grammar / spelling, which makes it easier to read.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:07
  • 3
    Not only grammar, you are editing other things also, which according to me is not required.
    – Arth Tilva
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:10
  • 3
    My edit is only a suggestion to improve your answer. You are free to change what you want.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:11
  • 1
    How many frozen Gujarati rooms are there?
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 10:52
  • 2
    @PM2Ring: I agree. Most of the disagreement appears to be from confusion caused by a language barrier... In the end, we want what's best for everyone.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:55
  • 1
    Yes Cerbrus, at last, we will be happy to the decision by which community is happy. Our main aim is to teach and share knowledge. And we only have issue with is that flagging of message which is not offensive or spam. Otherwise if it is offensive or spam,we admins only move it to trash. you can check our history Hope you understand.
    – Arth Tilva
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 12:13
  • 4
    @ArthTilva: It's great that the room owners move the truly offensive / spam messages to trash, but what if there is no RO present at the time? Also, when a chat message is flagged every 10k+ user in every other chat room gets notified. What are we supposed to do with all those flagged messages that are in a language we don't understand? How can we know that the message was wrongly flagged so the RO has left it alone? For all we know, there are no ROs present and it's truly a bad message that hasn't yet been dealt with.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 12:54
  • 4
    Not to mention, what if the ROs are complicit in the abuse themselves?
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:16
  • 7
    @ArthTilva how are the moderators to know whether the ROs are being genuine when the moderators cannot read the text themselves to see? It just brings up far too much possibility for trouble (and I say this as an RO of a busy room).
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 14:35
-14

There is already a Chinese chat on Stackoverflow for years. It's just not very active but people do chat there every now and then. The room owner is a Chinese speaker who takes care of things.

So IMHO, if a room can have at least one responsible and trustworthy owner of a particular language who is in there often, then it is okay to have a chat in that language.

43
  • 4
    This isn't an answer to the question...
    – DavidG
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 12:43
  • 1
    Why is it not? I mean language(s) other than English is already sort of supported and there is at least one chatroom with main language other than English?
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 12:50
  • 1
    Because it's just a comment with another example of non-English chat. Also, just because someone is talking in another language doesn't mean it's supported. If I create a room to talk about selling drugs, does that mean SO support that too?
    – DavidG
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 12:56
  • 1
    I would like to see you start a room to talk about selling drugs and I will bet that it will be closed down within a day's time because SO does not support selling drugs, especially illegal ones. Plenty of chat users get suspended for talking about things that are not allowed on SO chats.
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 13:07
  • 4
    I was using hyperbole to demonstrate a point which you obviously missed.
    – DavidG
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 13:11
  • 9
    You are the one missing the point. The question is basically: should SO allow languages other than English in the chats because it might cause problems when it's hard to moderator. My answer is: there is already a Chinese chat on SO for years and it never caused any problems, mainly because room owner is a Chinese speaker and taking care of things.
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 13:26
  • 1
    Please read what I have just said again, IMHO it's okay to have a chat in a language iff the room has at least one responsible and trustworthy owner in that language who is on often.
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 13:45
  • 4
    @Telkitty: the whole reason this meta question exists, is that there are non-English rooms that are problematic. It happens to work for that one room, which is great, but just allowing non-English rooms is no longer an option. This question is asking for alternative ideas. That aside, a room with less than 10 messages per week is hardly a good example of a functioning room.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 13:56
  • 3
    All I am saying is that it can work. Which of the active chats is not problematic at the times anyways. They ALL are every now and then. Life is full of problems, it does not mean we should stop existing and commit suicides.
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 14:03
  • 2
    It doesn't work. This issue has been popping up over and over again. That's exactly why something has to change.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 14:05
  • 4
    LOL, are you serious? JS room and C++ room have been given chance after chance, and any room in any other language has been 1 strike out. Isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to tell me that it doesn't work? Why? Because it has been given less chance?
    – TelKitty
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 14:10
  • 5
    @Telkitty: The rooms you mentioned are in English and can easily be moderated by available site staff, should it prove necessary. Non-English rooms can't be moderated by site staff. That's the problem.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 27, 2016 at 16:54
  • 1
    @Telkitty: The problem is that rooms do generate flags, even when Room Owners are present. Those flags need tob e handles by moderators. If the room isn't in English, moderators can only close the room to resolve the flag.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 20:53
  • 2
    Cyber criminals? Wow, what a way to go overboard! You seem to be so wrapped up in some belief that we are saying that non English speakers are evil to actually see what we are saying.
    – DavidG
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 1:33
  • 2
    @Telkitty: When flags pop up in English rooms, moderators can accurately handle the case, should it prove necessary. Moderators can not handle non-English flags. That is why an occasional flag isn't as much of a problem in English rooms as it is in non-English rooms. Now I am the one that doesn't want to listen?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 10:51
-21

As far as I know that Stack Overflow is good platform at where developers can share their knowledge with each other.

But right now the discussion of Non English chat goes to in deep indeed. I agree with moderators for that. We can chat in English maximum but what if the newbie which are not good in english and because of language he/she doesn't get help. Because when newbie posts answer which is silly for others but hard for them , then obvious he/she gets downvotes. So obvious because of not skill in english they ask their question in their native language in chat room which is understandable for others too.

Suggestion:

  • Now my suggestion is that if SO doesn't allow Non-English chat then they should give some limitations for chat in our native language. When the limitations exceeds then the Room Owner will flag that message which are useless.

  • So basically from that the developers who are not good in english they can get their solution and don't disturb to moderators too.

My concern is that If you can not change your policy then just allow some time limit for those developers who are weak in english and not able to ask their question. So without changing the POLICY just provide a wrights to RO with time limitation for Non English chat.

Thanks.

7
  • 4
    You're saying the same thing some other users have already answered. However, you're not explaining what should be done to make this work. Simply allowing non-English chat has proven to be problematic time and time again.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:06
  • 2
    Moderators exist because self-moderation does not always work. Saying "Oh well the ROs can handle it" is not a solution.
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:07
  • Its not problematic for you and others t too which are good skill in english but here the issue happen who are not good enough in english and only the issue with language they can not able to get their answers.
    – Piyush
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:09
  • 6
    @PiyushGupta: The problem is that non-English rooms are impossible to moderate. When flags come from a non-English room, that room has a problem. That is the problem, and that is what I'm asking you for a solution for.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:09
  • 1
    I agree with you but that messages should be flagged which are useless. Because no one can do their personal chat in chat room. But because of different language that messages should not be flagged. Because they are related to programming language.
    – Piyush
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:11
  • 1
    Chat here is supposed to be part of Stack Overflow, to handle detailed discussions or tangents. Since Stack Overflow is an English web site, anyone who comes here knows English by definition. It isn't a huge burden to require them to use that English in chat as well as on the site.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 3:30
  • 2
    Incidentally, when I see a question that I can answer that has poor English, I don't downvote it; I edit it to make the English better. However, it's rare that I see a question whose only problem is poor English. Usually the questions that are in poor English also show little effort in terms of asking the question: they include no code, don't provide adequate error listings, fail to mention what the desired behavior is, or flat out ask for code. If your question is being downvoted, don't assume it's because the English is poor; more than likely your question has other problems you can fix.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 3:34
-29

I am not good in English.

I am sometimes scared to ask questions on Stack Overflow because I can not describe my problem in English. And if I ask, everybody downvotes me because they can not understand my English well.

In my opinion, SO has to allow non-English chat. Not in questions, but only in chat rooms.

I speak for others who don't know English well.

13
  • 6
    You seem to get by, considering the fact that you're fast approaching 1000 rep.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:27
  • But see in my all answers there was not much english description Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:37
  • i am facing difficulties when i want to ask question in this situation what should i do??@BoltClock Commented May 26, 2016 at 11:39
  • 8
    @ArpitPatel If your english is bad enough that you can't ask properly you should get someone to translate for you or just not use the site. SO's main goal is to create good Q/A, and broken english doesn't help with that.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:36
  • 2
    Agree with you @Magisch that's why i am just request to SO to allow non English in chat room. Commented May 26, 2016 at 13:53
  • 2
    @ArpitPatel I sympathize with you, and I try to edit as best I can to ensure that the message gets through. But we can't edit everything, and sometimes the question is poor in ANY language. My advice when asking questions is to a) search as much as possible and b) if you still need to ask, make it a stellar question. Ensure that you have all the code, add links to other questions that helped, and add pictures if you are dealing with a GUI question.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 26, 2016 at 15:36
  • Thank you @Laurel for advise Commented May 26, 2016 at 15:41
  • 1
    How do you know they are downvoting you because they can't understand your English? Maybe they are downvoting you because you can't or don't describe your problem well, irrespective of language. Try including a minimal running problem case, all error listings, and the desired behavior. The majority of that is going to be code or copy/paste, anyway, not English. To me it looks like your downvoted questions generally lack error listings, which makes people think you were too lazy actually to try to run your code, and that you are just trying to get them to do your work for you.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 3:40
  • Because my english is annoying to the users that's why thay do to me . it might be some code issue but not every time. Commented May 28, 2016 at 3:45
  • I looked at your three most recent downvoted questions. Not one of them indicates what currently happens that is a problem. The issue is not the language of the questions, but that the questions are simply incomplete.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented May 28, 2016 at 3:45
  • Yes exactly incomplete because i am not able to describe my whole problem in english So i need help for that in my native language. Commented May 28, 2016 at 3:57
  • 2
    You should go to a help site in your native language, then, instead of to Stack Overflow, which is an English language site. Or, learn enough English to be able to post, say, a stack trace.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 3:35
  • 3
    I don't mean to be rude, but the obvious solution to all these problems is to ask more questions in English, not less. You will get better at English eventually. There was a point where my own English was horrible - the solution isn't to shy away from it, but to use it as often as possible. It may be that SO isn't the best place to learn it, but who cares. As long as your questions are on-topic, keep asking.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 14:37

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