21

This has been in the back-burner long enough. There isn't any good reason other than historical that prevent this.

I'm aware that this will remove some complexities on chat.SE, since the SO moderators have to keep moderator status in chat.SE. We would have a larger pool of moderators so we would get more diversity of timezones and wealth of experience, also this seems to be important for the SO community since in last elections users were worried that there was little presence of moderators in chat. The proportion users/moderators on chat.SE is higher than in chat.SO, so in average even the size of SO shouldn't add much more than a single extra flag to handle weekly (I counted just now, utc time 15:17, more moderators than users in chat.SE). Will obviously reduce the amount of drama (or heighten it), since events will be more distributed. And lastly, SO moderators will have more time to moderate the main site instead of dealing with chat.

I listed what I consider pro's of merging chat.SO and chat.SE, because I couldn't think of any detrimental effect that we already ain't experiencing.

Let me put this for those that doesn't know: for the end user, this change will be imperceptible. chat.SO will redirect to chat.SE, will present all the same rooms that are associated with Stack Overflow, the same rooms and with their complete transcripts. The stared messages may be lost, but that's easily solvable.

26
  • 3
    I wonder if it might be worthwhile to consider merging ALL chats, network-wide. Do any other sites have problems like we do?
    – Laurel
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 17:55
  • 5
    @Laurel there are only 3 chat servers: MSE, SO and SE. There were plans of merging MSE with SE's but it has more edge cases (they have company only private rooms in MSE chat). From this, the most straightforward merge is just SO and SE chats, since there wouldn't be any edge case.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 17:59
  • Goes to show you I don't use chat. I'll take your word for it.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 18:07
  • 19
    I don't get it. Chatting about SO topics (technical) vs chatting about meta/all-sites (not technical) has no edge cases and is comparable? You'll have to flesh that out. Commented May 29, 2016 at 23:45
  • 3
    @HansPassant I'm not taking the topics into account. Just the technical aspects of the chat servers and some perks that will come along with this move. As I said at the start this has been in the back burner long enough.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 29, 2016 at 23:54
  • 2
    This would also fix meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/323810/…. SO would no longer need different chat policies to all other sites.
    – TRiG
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 14:33
  • 1
    Where does chat.meta.stackexchange.com fit? Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:50
  • 2
    @Flexo "There were plans of merging MSE with SE's but it has more edge cases" so, unless those edge cases are solved, "the most straightforward merge is just SO and SE chats, since there wouldn't be any edge case"
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:59
  • I don't see how merging the two solves any of the actual issues chat has (from a user POV).
    – PeeHaa
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:17
  • 1
    @PeeHaa I'm not trying to solve any issue.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:43
  • So why are you requesting something if you are not trying to solve something? What's the gain? Seems rather useless.
    – PeeHaa
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:44
  • 2
    What complexities of chat.se? Why do we need a larger pool of moderators? As stated, your proposal does nothing to solve the actual issues of chat.
    – PeeHaa
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:46
  • 2
    @HansPassant: A quick glance at the list suggests that there are chatrooms there that do have some basis in technical detail, and some that don't. The key difference that I can see is that Stack Overflow's chat has half as many rooms, but even then it's superficial. You can filter rooms and search for them based on their name, so I'm not sure if your concern is entirely valid since it seems to be well mitigated.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:16
  • 1
    I seem to recall the reason for having them be separate domains was server/network related. E.g. too much traffic. Has that been addressed by the company yet?
    – TylerH
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:37
  • 2
    @TylerH oh, and the chat servers are hosted on virtual servers. I can't find the source right now, and Nick's blog doesn't tells nickcraver.com/blog/2013/11/22/…. Ok I was looking at the wrong post nickcraver.com/blog/2016/02/17/… "The second cluster is a set of Dell R730xd servers, each with 768GB of RAM, 6TB of PCIe SSD space, and 2x 8 cores. This cluster runs everything else. That list includes Careers, Open ID, Chat, our Exception log, and every other Q&A site."
    – Braiam
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:46

3 Answers 3

16

This seems like pointless work.

The moderators on chat.SE may be chatting with each other rather than moderating, which explains their higher count, not moderating.

Saying to the moderators "I notice you like chatting. How about we interrupt your chat time with more flags to handle by merging a chat board with flags into your chat board?" is moving work around, not reducing work.

If there was evidence of a moderation problem on either board, there could be some dividends, but even then a stronger argument than the OP would be required to be convincing.

"It is on the back burner" is not an argument to do it, but rather an argument against (it has failed to be important enough to prioritize repeatedly, why should today be any different?)

Negative downsides, beyond the work, include the inevidible glitches that will result (I could list a myriad of possibilities: bookmarks, shortcuts, redirects, name collisions, and that doesn't even get into backend issues), culture clash (Is moderator response different on the two boards? If merged, which culture is used? How can you be convinced that this could possibly be a universal good?), etc.

In short, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And nothing in your feature request mentions anything broke.

5
  • 8
    one big advantage I see is that I can have all my favorite rooms in one place...
    – Ven
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 14:54
  • 4
    "culture clash (Is moderator response different on the two boards? If merged, which culture is used? How can you be convinced that this could possibly be a universal good?)" Culture of a room isn't not above common rules of chat. If you want to have your own culture in a chat room, and that goes against what is expected on SE, just don't use SE chat at all.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 14:58
  • 5
    @Braiam chat.SE and chat.SO may or may not have similar culture. I don't know. But, if you merge them, there will almost certainly be culture clash. This is an actual cost. Saying "there is no culture but the rules" is, quite frankly, a position that seems increadibly unreasonable, and doesn't match my experience on any social forum, online or off. When you take two different cultures and shove them together, there is almost always damage: if there is a reason to do it, that can easily outweigh the damage, but saying "there is no damage" is not a reasonable response to the problem. Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:03
  • 3
    "here will almost certainly be culture clash" how? Most people will never know there's a bunch of new rooms in the server unless 1) they search for it, or 2) there are flags. On the first, they were going away from Kansas, so Dorothy can't expect everything to be the same, and on the second, people will just bring popcorn and watch the show unfolds. So, from my point of view you don't know c.SE at all or have serious misconceptions how stuff works.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2016 at 15:20
  • 6
    I find the assumption there will be a culture clash highly annoying. Because that assumes there would be a need to actually interact unless there's flags. And that simply isn't the case. It's just a few hundred more chatrooms on the same sever. no big deal. Flag-Handling should be by the same standard across both servers either way
    – Vogel612
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 21:53
15

I agree with you.

When all SE networks chats are at one place why SO chat rooms are kept separately?

I don't see any reason of why they are kept separately. I would love to see all SE and SO chatrooms at one place.

We are not just technical people

I am not just technical person. I am active on other SE networks as well. So, I don't think we should divide chatrooms based on technical and non-technical. IMO, we should not divide the chatrooms on any other aspects.

As said by Ven,

one big advantage I see is that I can have all my favorite rooms in one place...

I hope SO don't have any problem with merging these chat rooms.

-5
  • There is little to no value to combining them.
  • There is a noticeable cost to user experience, development time, and an increased chance of problems.

Unless they are doing a large amount on the chat system already, it will not be worth the expense.

25
  • 5
    "There is a noticeable cost to user experience, development time, and an increased chance of problems." [citation needed]
    – Braiam
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:43
  • 2
    "There is a noticeable cost to user experience, development time, and an increased chance of problems." - Common sense
    – PeeHaa
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 17:55
  • 1
    @Braiam The costs are obvious, which is why I did not provide citation. The user experience suffers because users will have to adjust to the new site and the new rules. It takes to do software changes, that is just the way it is. When you change something (especially if it has so much data attached to it) there is a chance that the new changes will break something. This is all basic software development/engineering, so SO users should understand this.
    – Trisped
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 21:31
  • 2
    @Trisped no... for the user, for third time already, there will be absolutely no difference. None. If you visit chat.askubuntu.com, you are redirected to chat.stackexchange.com with the host askubuntu.com. It will be exactly the same thing in this case. And your other claim is reversed because we would have to support 1(2 actually) chat servers instead of 2(3). And chat.SE has to, for example, take into account special cases. Now, tell me, have you actually used chat.SE, chat.MSE and chat.SO? How long?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 21:52
  • To pick a point: what new rules, specifically, would a normal denizen of chat have to get used to if it were moved over to Meta Stack Exchange?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:05
  • 2
    @Makoto none. none whatsoever
    – Vogel612
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:07
  • @Vogel612: That's what I thought, but I'd like to see if Tripsed has any other considerations that either of us are missing.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:08
  • 1
    @Braiam URL redirects do not account for all user interaction with the site. The SO chat users will be expecting a particular experience, including a theme to the channels, which will no longer be there. In addition, how the rules are applied differs greatly between sites. You claim they are no new rules, but having visited other SE sites, I can tell you that the SE rules (which are written the same for all sites) are applied differently for each site. You can claim that they are the same, but my experience proves you wrong.
    – Trisped
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:20
  • 1
    @Trisped in what way is the different application (on site) relevant to chat? Chat moderation is pretty uniform across all three servers. Why would themes be an issue? Chatrooms do already have different themes (based on the sites they are associate with), so that argument's out.
    – Vogel612
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:22
  • 1
    But each chat has its own set of rules, its own topic, and its own norms, and the room owners choose how to enforce those (while concurrently, they channel should in principle also enforce the global rules). Theme aside, I'm personally not seeing any evidence to back your claims up.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:23
  • @Braiam Supporting 2 active servers requires a minimal amount of work unless there are multiple changes presented or there is a problem with the resources being used. Servers are meant to be maintained with minimal effort from IT. Compare this to the amount of time to add the redirects, re-code the SE to point to the correct site, and make the transition as seamless as you claim it will be, and you have a poor time investment.
    – Trisped
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:23
  • 2
    The fact that they have not done it likely stems back to the time when Stack Overflow simply was its own site and the rest of the Stack Exchange network built around it. Still not a convincing argument on your part.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:29
  • 2
    You seem to be misunderstanding my intent here. I'm looking for you to provide some concrete evidence that validates your opposition to the migration to chat. Merely going off of supposition which could be refuted otherwise isn't going to get either of us anywhere.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 22:33
  • 1
    @Trisped soo... you're talking about topics. That makes even less sense than the consideration of themes. In addition to that your "Common development knowledge" is asserting there are circumstances that (Based on information publicily available) I (and Braiam and Makoto) think there are not. Your claims are unfounded and unfactual. Just because a change is easy it doesn't have to be done. In general your answer and the accompanying comments reek of unprepared talk :/
    – Vogel612
    Commented May 31, 2016 at 23:03
  • 1
    I would gladly go through the transcripts of Tavern on Meta and hunt down all the comments done by balpha about all my claims, since they exist. But leaving you in the wrong seems to be more entertaining. Next time, get your stuff together before deciding to form an opinion over anything. This is an advise.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 1, 2016 at 0:17

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