1

Using these questions as a bench mark that people are wanting to talk to low rep users in chat:

I propose we lift the rep restriction on other conditions:

  • length of membership
  • posts

Example:

This user wanted a question reopened Reopen my question about Android application crashing

My answer was to advise the user to come to the SOCVR chat room. There are other instances where is may be helpful when assisting users with improving posts to be ontopic to create a chat room.

Can we bypass the minimum reputation points requirement for users with a Stack Overflow account that is longer than one month, or who have asked a question or posted an answer that has been on the site for longer than one hour (this prevents spammers or trolls entering chat before the flags have had a chance to remove and flag users who post spam and abuse)?

Most spammers and trolls don't sign up for extended periods (there will always be exceptions) and it may help reduce noise levels, in the form of comments on the site.

It would also save the current work around to invite users into chat, so if there are recommended chat rooms on Meta for users to visit, they can visit.

The worst thing that could happen is we might need to kick more users from chat, but I think the potentially low incidence and ease of which to deal with this, would be offset by the potential gain for communication with struggling members, who are interested in making a positive contribution to the site.

What do you say?

24
  • Do you mean reduce the min rep in the title?
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 13:08
  • @JonClements yes, please feel free to edit my post. I am not the smoothest orator and welcome improvements
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 13:09
  • 1
    Another similar (but different) proposal for users < 20: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/257949/…
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 13:10
  • 2
    I'd take a hard look at accounts that have spammed chat in the past before I loosened restrictions, particularly on length of membership, just to see if they would be allowed under the new rules. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 13:14
  • 2
    somewhat related: A way for “new users” to ask about their post specifically
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 13:17
  • 1
    @BilltheLizard I am making some assumptions and leaps of faith I guess, after working with Smoke Detector and looking at the spammers accounts. It's observation only, that they are accounts that have been created on the day, or unregistered users, in which case this is no problem. There will always be long-sighted trolls, but fortunately forethought and trolling do not go hand in hand :D
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 13:18
  • 3
    A festering problem at SO today is that users have no incentive whatsoever to maintain an account in good standing. Creating a new account is trivial, that makes DVs on bad posts and question bans completely meaningless. Giving them more ways to bypass the rather minimal existing restrictions does not actually help to improve the quality of the Q+A, it makes it worse. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:20
  • 2
    @HansPassant i can understand that perspective. It depends on the focus, whether there is an investment of time that is worthwhile with new members. some come good, but many do not that is true. After being in the SOCVR room for while, I can see it's easy to dispose of toxic users.
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:23
  • 2
    What is the incentive for giving more users the privilege of chat? Do you really not have enough people to talk to?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:33
  • 2
    @CodyGray i'd assume it has nothing to do with people to talk to, and instead making it easier to talk to someone with low rep in really long comment threads.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:38
  • 1
    @CodyGray by your own admission, you don't do chat!!! LOLOL
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:39
  • 1
    basically, if i'm helping someone on their question, and the comment thread is getting too long, i can start a chat convo. and invite them to it (or click the convert to chat and invite them to that,) but only give them access to that room. So it solves the problem of them not being able to jump to chat if needed, they just need to be invited by someone who is trusted.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:42
  • 1
    Suggested countless times on the uber-meta, @Kevin. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/146569/…, meta.stackexchange.com/questions/100291/…, meta.stackexchange.com/questions/111942/…. Hasn't gained much traction from the community team. Presumably they agree that 20 points is already a ridiculously low barrier for something that is a completely optional feature.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 14:43
  • 1
    I don't think it's irrelevant that you have an SO chatbot, but you haven't mentioned that in your post.
    – JDB
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 18:55
  • 1
    If this is done it should not be done solely as a function of time. Otherwise someone could make an account. wait the required time and then start spamming all over the chat system. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 19:13

1 Answer 1

14

Whether you like this idea or not is going to depend on how much you value the social aspects of SO/SE versus the content curation aspects. I happen to believe that SO's mission is primarily the curation of excellent content useful to many people over a long time.

So when I read your proposal, my question is: "how would chat improve the overall quality of our content?"

I think you could make the argument that users would have an opportunity to talk with new users at length about their post and help them craft a better question.

However, I believe that's mostly wishful thinking. The reality is that chat would quickly become an opportunity for users to answer off-topic questions or to have long debates about stupid things that don't really profit anyone. But isn't that already what chat is? Yeah, sure it is. So explain to me again why new users need access to it?

Even if you did get into a nice conversation with a new user who simply needs some guidance on their not-quite-right question, why do you need a chat room for that? Don't we have a FAQ? Aren't there some excellent meta posts and blogs covering all of this? What would you say in chat that hasn't already been said several times over in those places?

So while I appreciate how it could be useful in some scenarios, I vote "no" because I don't think it's going to be used well in the vast majority of cases. It's a nice little incentive to contribute some useful content to the site, and I don't see any reason to change that.

16
  • Yeah, sure it is. So explain to me again why new users need access to it? I don't know, to help guide the new user to crafting better questions in the future? FAQ's are generalistic, whereas a chat convo would allow you to show them what it would mean using the specific question as an example. Real world examples are better than "HAY DID U RED FAQ?!" answers / comments that SO is notorious for. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 20:20
  • 2
    @Dropped.on.Caprica - I have yet to see a poorly asked question where: 1) the user has read our copious FAQ and been truly confused or 2) where a 10 minute chat room back-and-forth would clear up that confusion. I HAVE seen users who would love nothing more than to suck up an hour or more of a professional's time, for free, to be their personal coach/mentor. Wouldn't we ALL love that.
    – JDB
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 20:40
  • The only people who would invite people into chat would be people who are willing to go through the process of inviting them to chat and waiting until they join. If the user inviting them leaves, then kick them out of the channel. Other users of the channel won't have to deal with their questions, and the user has a vague pointer on how to move forward. There's this weird fast-food manager thought process around StackOverflow where if a new user asks a bad question, OBVIOUSLY they are just going to waste people's time. Empirical evidence, best evidence. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:21
  • @Dropped.on.Caprica - Can you give an example (preferably more than one) where this would have been useful? Where the comments section was insufficient to provide advice, pointers and links to further material?
    – JDB
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:29
  • I actually upvoted this. It's a good argument against the idea and presents what could happen, which would be less than ideal. It is possible it would be helpful, but then there's difficulty with help vampires and belligerent users arguing. That's an issue true, except if they're invited into a chat with a user, the user can then always leave that chat if that happens.
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 23:18
  • I have a sample… Look what happened today here… stackoverflow.com/q/45889604/2684 If we would have had chat, all the comment non-sense could have been avoided real-time. Commented Aug 25, 2017 at 23:41
  • @MartinMarconcini - I kind of think the comment nonsense could have been avoided if the OP had taken the time to write a better question. As-is, it's a couple requirements, a generic "it's not working" statement and then a code dump. It took a whole answer and a bunch of comments just to get details like "The call back is only called the first time I populate it. Afterwards( on spinner click) it is never called." I fail to see how access to chat would have improved the question - if anything, it would have hidden most of the useful content from Google and anonymous users.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 26, 2017 at 4:02
  • I don’t really agree with that, @JDB. The question was there, if there was a better mechanism to talk through it and maybe end up with a better/updated question… Instead we had to chat in the comments. Much like Slack Threads, SO needs a “thread/chat/on_the_side” mechanism to resolve these occurrences. They happen a lot. Comments are harder to read, they are not always shown in its entirety (when there are too many and often not in order (some are hidden)) so it’s more noise than actual content. Not to mention the “possible dupe of this” or the “thanks, me 2, etc”… Commented Aug 26, 2017 at 21:41
  • @MartinMarconcini - I think that the question is a great example not of why we need chat, but what a low effort question looks like and why it's a terrible drain on SO. If you what to go through heroics to help a stranger across the internet then I salute you... but SO doesn't really want to be the platform for that. The goal (not always achievable) is to curate questions and answers that will be helpful to other people months or years down the road.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 28, 2017 at 14:38
  • @JDB I think you’re mistaken again. it wasn’t a low effort question. It’s a new technology that has a lot of Google “WHAT IF” scenarios (where the last 20% of the implementation is vague and subject to ‘it depends but won’t tell’). Inability to discuss and expose these type of questions, simply render SO a chore where they WILL be discussed and will add more noise than they should. That question (and its answer) is now helpful to others. I think it’s a great example of why we need private threads/chats (Slack had to do the same… there must be a reason). Commented Aug 28, 2017 at 20:47
  • You can’t keep pretending Both Joel and Jeff’s dream of “perfect question -> answer(s) + 1 Marked Answer” will exist for every topic. It has been demonstrated in the past 7+ years that there’s a lot of room for other types of questions/dynamics until the point of “Problem X can be solved via Y” can be reached. These questions (especially on new technologies) arise more often than not (At least in the tags I work with, mostly Swift/Kotlin/Java/Android/iOS), etc. The solution is not to “we don’t want that”, but to help people use the platform. Commented Aug 28, 2017 at 20:50
  • @MartinMarconcini - I don't pretend that the "dream" exists for every topic. I know that it doesn't, and so do Joel & Jeff. They've commented on this at length many, many times. Back-and-forth "whats-the-bug" type questions are necessary for software development, but they don't tend to be useful to random strangers (check out just about every message board ever for proof). SO q's are necessarily narrow to maximize usefulness to a wider audience. (See help center and help center.) Cruel curation standards are why this site has succeeded while so many others have failed. :)
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 28, 2017 at 21:04
  • @JDB The fact that Back-and-forth "whats-the-bug" type questions are necessary for software development, but they don't tend to be useful to random strangers is the main reason why a thread/temp chat/private room/call_it_anything_you_want would be a great thing for SO. People are still going to ask shitty questions (and shitty answers/comments) no matter how many mods you elect every year… the end result can be useful or a comment-fest that users won’t read, and will not provide a lot of value; the later is what’s happening now (been for years). Commented Aug 29, 2017 at 0:00
  • @MartinMarconcini - Well, on one hand asking SO to add a message-board-like feature is kind of like asking Tesla why they don't make a diesel-powered version of the Model X. It's not "bad", it's just not their mission. Then again, they just tried and failed at docs, so why not give real-time debugging support a whirl? In any case, disabling chat for new users is one of those "by-design" things... it's been considered and the current point threshold is where they want it. (I'll add that it worked out fine in your example case... the OP went and got more rep and you got your chat room.)
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 29, 2017 at 15:40
  • @JDB Fine, I get it, in your SO usage, this is useless. In mine, it would be very valuable. Your comparison is silly. Tesla makes electric vehicles. StackExchange is a Q/A site, glorified by other things. I get it that nothing will be done about it, I was just giving my (long-time) user experience. Yes, for that particular question and 2 days later, it worked out ok, now the question is plagued by 200 comments that mean nothing. Getting 20 rep is very easy anyway, but it becomes a simple chore in these cases. Anyway, thanks for the time, nothing else to add here I suppose. o/ Commented Aug 29, 2017 at 18:34

You must log in to answer this question.