239

I'm a fairly heavy chat user - and I think for new users sometimes it's best to direct them to a room related to their question, whereby details can be thrashed out (avoiding a long stream of comments). Thereby, getting a question back into shape and answerable - possibly even answered and posted back to the main site.

I understand why the restriction exists, but I don't see why it shouldn't be able to be "over-ruled" by the ROs - upvoting a question just because it's enough to put them to the threshold to "talk" to them is not the way we need to be doing this.

I propose that when a Room Owner grants write-access it's accepted for users < 20 rep

The access can easily be revoked later if it turns out a nuisance, but from my experience that's generally not from < 20 rep users.

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  • 17
    The limit makes sense so new users don't dump all their questions into chat "because it's easier". Also, imagine question-banned users with 1 rep. Do you really want them to chat? But besides that, I like your proposal. Room owners should be able to override the rep minimum.
    – ThiefMaster Mod
    Commented Jun 1, 2014 at 21:22
  • 83
    @bjb568: If high-rep users want to take a noisy conversation off the main site to help someone regardless of their reputation, I say more power to them.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 1, 2014 at 22:59
  • 12
    @bjb568 what's more productive than reducing noise and helping someone learn the ropes as it were? The room I'm frequently in is more than willing to do so if needs be, it's just we can't... Be it on a rooms' head if they wish to, but it's a choice which ROs don't have at the moment... I'm not proposing that the entire chat system changes. Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 5:30
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    @bjb568 It's up to each individual to choose how he or she spends their time. If I choose to improve the resource we know as StackOverflow by editing or commenting on a question, then that's my choice. If I choose to engage with an individual who is asking a question with the goal of helping them to improve that question, then everybody wins. Perhaps it is you who "should do something more productive" by encouraging people to direct their energies where they will have a positive effect instead of attempting to tell other people what they can or cannot do?
    – ClickRick
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 12:28
  • 17
    The real problem, in my view, is that when I'm trying to have an extended conversation with a questioner, SO offers to move the discussion into chat even though the questioner is not allowed into chat because his rep is too low. (I think I'm right in my recollection that this is what happens.) It is right to offer me this option only if the option is possible.
    – matt
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 15:34
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    @bjb568 "Doing whatever you want" is not at all what ClickRick is saying and you (should) know it. Just because you can't fathom a way to productively help a user in chat doesn't mean it's not possible. It's a lot easier for someone to improve when they're talking to a human and receiving feedback in a format they understand than it is to see your questions downvoted and closed and try to guess at why.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 17:16
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    @bjb568 It's not against the rules to help people in a chat room, and help in general should always be encouraged. Note that there are different forms of help; simply giving someone an answer isn't usually the best form of help, but responding a call for help with a nudge toward a useful doc or a helpful tutorial will go a long way and should never be discouraged. Again, just because you hide behind averages as an excuse to not help someone doesn't mean you should pressure others into behaving the same way.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 18:23
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    @bjb568 I think your opinion of 20-rep users is incredibly jaded and inaccurate.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 19:15
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    @bjb568 Having a low reputation does not mean that a user's questions are "crap". It just means they're new to the site. There's a difference.
    – user149341
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 6:15
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    @bjb568 you know the chat system well enough to know that we (the JavaScript room) do not tolerate help vamps. Sending low users to chat is easily controllable, and revoking access is just as easy. Also, NEVER TRUST REPUATION. I've seen 1 rep users blow my answers out of the water, and I've seen 100k rep users post the worst answers I've ever seen. Rep doesn't determine the ability to ask a good question and give a good answer. There's a correlation, but it's not always true. Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 19:31
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    A programming noob can't be an enthusiast? Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 19:38
  • 11
    Beginners are some of the most enthusiastic programmers I've met. Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 19:44
  • 6
    @bjb568 your argument boils down to "People aren't worth my time until they prove they are." I don't agree with that philosophy, but the fundamental problem with it in this instance is that this feature request is all about allowing new users to prove that they are. You should be supporting this wholeheartedly, if you sincerely think most new users "probably don't know what a computer is."
    – Adam Smith
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 19:59
  • 13
    "Helping them in general makes them feel welcome when that is not the impression that we want to give." wait what? dude, what the hell? we are no longer supposed to make users feel welcomed?
    – rlemon
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 20:36
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    @bjb568 We're not making them feel good for doing bad things. Helping someone improve their question isn't making them feel good about doing bad things. The fact that they want to go to chat shows that they care about their question and more importantly the site, and maybe they'll stick around if they see people being helpful. Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 23:45

7 Answers 7

77

STRONGLY in favor of this feature request. I understand it's been said before that new users should stick to asking and answering questions to get a "feel" for the site as opposed to flooding chat with silly questions that cannot be fully answered there, but for example, this is a specific incident where the user is trying to figure out how to better design their program, but doesn't have a question specific enough to get a good answer. I tried to engage them in chat, mistakenly believing that if I was the room owner and gave them explicit write privileges that it would override the "too low rep" restriction.

Not to mince words: There was a user here that I was capable of helping, deserved help, and whom I wanted to help, and I was unable to because of a software restriction. I have no problem with low rep users not being able to participate in public chat, but I have a BIG problem in an established user not being able to invite them to chat to more deeply discuss their problem.

43

I favor this feature request.

There are many cases where a low-rep user shows willingness to learn something instead of saying "im a newbie, pls tell me how to do it". In many such cases, I want to be able to help the user, but can't because they don't have enough reputation to chat.

Discriminating users based on their reputation is not a good idea, at least when determining if they're eligible to join chat. A user's reputation being 1 doesn't mean they are dumb. Nor does it mean they're incapable of contributing to a productive discussion. Some of these new users are actually quite capable and might be experts at what they do — if you can get them to engage in a healthy conversion, it might encourage them to be an active contributor.

I'll admit to having upvoted one or two questions of the question-asker in order to get them into chat. With this feature, that won't be needed any more. It will also help reduce the clutter (read: noise, that adds nothing useful the post) in the comments under a question.

11

I just came across this same issue. The odd thing is that the description of "write access" states:

Even when this room is read-only or their reputation is too low, these users will be able to talk in this room. (emphasis mine)

I was trying to chat with a user whose rep is below the 20 threshold, so based on the description, giving them explicit write access should allow them to chat regardless of their rep, but instead I get an error message:

Users must have at least 20 reputation to talk

That's completely counter-intuitive. If they have more than 20 rep, they don't need explicit write access. This feels like a bug to me.

7

Personally I think it would be nice to just be able to trigger the "Let's continue this in chat" functionality, and then allow that to bypass the rep limit. Not sure if there should be a rep threshold for the helper.

I've had a couple of occasions where it appeared that the OP needed some minor but more conversational help, when their question had potential. I'd love it if the possibility were there to help them in that way. I probably wouldn't use it often, maybe once every (other) month, but it would be handy to help some of those new at SO get better.

5

I'm a big proponent of chat. I do support the intent of the request here because I feel that there's value in it as a concept. That said, I feel like the implementation requested here is too broad and might end up being riskier than it's worth.

Before I go into details on why, I'll say that, the answer here is "official" in that we're tagging this . The biggest factor in that decline is that we're really not able to spend any time on Chat (Bonfire) right now and that, if we did, we'd likely want to do a more comprehensive overhaul of chat permissions and moderation. As such, the arguments below have less bearing on this status than the simple fact we have no current plans (that I'm aware of) to work on Chat.

Tying Chat permissions to RO status

This request is really highly upvoted for understandable reasons - there's a big need, and there has been for a while, for us to rethink the restrictions on who can access Chat. I'd love for more people to be able to use it because I sincerely feel that it's one of the best places on our site for real-time help improving posts (and asking more subjective questions) while also being really useful for async conversations.

On top of that, I'm a Community Manager who's focused on engagement and Chat is one of the most powerful tools we have to increase engagement and sense of community because it's pretty much the only place on the site you can just hang out and let your personality show.

In the case of big rooms where there's trusted ROs who keep things in line, this request is understandable and reasonable. The major concern that we have from a trust and safety perspective is that, while tying this to RO status (rather than pure reputation as suggested in another answer) will protect these very active rooms from random people being let in by unaffiliated 500 reputation users, it doesn't prevent an issue that's a bit more concerning to us.

Right now, anyone with at least 100 reputation can create a room and become an RO. If this request was granted, they could then give permission to anyone they wish to join them in their room. That opens up a huge space for potential risk for unmoderated chat between users who haven't really shown they are trustworthy. Additionally, the system will assign RO status to the most chatty user in rooms that don't have ROs.

While it may seem low risk and low impact - sure, they're only talking in their little corner of Chat - but there's a higher risk that their discussions might be less appropriate than currently exists. Maybe my concern and hand-wringing will come to naught but I'd much rather think about wholistic improvements to chat moderation instead of trusting anyone who hits 100 rep with granting access to anyone they wish.

You might ask... "How is this hugely different amounts of risk than a room full of 20 reputation users?" and that's a valid question... to me it just feels more scary. In the case of a bunch of 20 rep users, they all had to do something to earn that rep. If one 100 rep user can create a chat room for a dozen 1 rep users to access chat... that feels a lot simpler to achieve.

Improving Chat moderation

Huge caveat here - this section details my personal feelings about how I imagine chat could be better moderated. It doesn't indicate any support from the company or any plans in this direction.

The first big thing here is that the fact that only site mods can be Chat mods is... a problem. Site mods might not be frequent Chat users and Chat just feels like it's more immediate and needs more urgent handling of problematic content.

A couple of years ago we created a new concept for Chat - the Room Moderator. This is separate from Site mods, ROs or even overall Chat moderators. These are people who have, essentially, the same abilities as Site mods but scoped to a specific room. They have more control over room access, flag handling, message deletion, etc... but only in that room. These people are appointed by Chat moderators.

The important thing is, unlike ROs, not all Chat rooms need Room Moderators, only the more active ones that are often dealing with more people and differing personalities. This request feels like something that would come into play with that role or the creation of Chat Mods that are independent from being site moderators... something that is a bit more restrictive than simply "all people with RO status".

All of this falls into the realm of something I know many of you have heard me say before - we need to reconsider whether relying on reputation points to determine whether someone is allowed to do something is the best solution. We need to, instead, think about how they can show they have the necessary skills or trainings to earn that ability and then make sure they use it effectively. I'm really looking forward to how we can improve our privilege systems, even outside chat.

4
  • I like this answer, largely agree with the musings, and, above all, agree with the decision to decline the feature request. However, I don't know whether to upvote or downvote it, because the answer isn't definitely rejecting the feature request, which is what I'd prefer to see happen. Chat is a privilege, which should be earned, and the bar is already extremely low. Reputation is not a great metric for many things, but it is still a useful metric for one's basic familiarity with the site, and 20 rep is earned by posting a single good question or answer or two OK questions and/or answers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 14, 2023 at 6:17
  • I appreciate that there is at least an official response on the matter, and am not surprised that chat features are still being deprioritized. I think that this restriction comes at a heavy cost in terms of site usability: many new questions from 1-rep users end up with very long comment threads while people try to figure out whether or not there is a site-appropriate question underneath. Meanwhile, almost new person who comes to Stack Overflow seems to want and expect a discussion forum, no matter how much we tell them it's not. Commented Jan 14, 2023 at 7:27
  • (con't.) Better IMO to let them start out in a room by themselves, where they don't interfere with anyone: either in the big chats like the main Python room, or in the questions feed (until the question is at least sort-of refined). Commented Jan 14, 2023 at 7:28
  • I'd forgotten I'd posted this 8+ years ago lol. I don't completely agree with the reasoning but understand it. Umm... pending an overhaul to the chat system and privileges could we at least do something about the "misleading" text that Chris put in an answer meta.stackoverflow.com/a/334445 ? Commented Jan 14, 2023 at 9:22
4

From answer to Moderator moves comments to chat - can low-rep user participate?

Upon further investigation in a chat room in which this recently occurred, it appears that all existing participants ARE automatically added to the "Explicit write access" list for the room at the time it is created, even those with <20 rep.

Thanks to Zoe for pointing out where to look for this information.

This does not apply to normal users using the option to "continue" a discussion in chat - it only applies to moderator comment moves.

What about if this "mod privilege" is extended to gold tag-badge holders or included as part of the privileges for rep >10k?

Related [Meta SE] Add new / low rep users to chat rooms created "continue discussion in chat" by gold tag badge holders (or alike privilege based)

-10

I agree as well. But it does not need to be room owner. Any person with say 500 rep shall be able to invite low rep user to chat. I have seen today some newbie but his post was very low quality so it was downvoted and closed immediately. Answearing such broad question did not make sense. But sharing some thoughts in chat would do.

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  • 5
    I think 500 rep is way too low. I wouldn't trust a 500 rep user with such a privilege. I would be more trusting of a user with at least 2000 or 3000 rep.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 3:55
  • I forgot to mention it shall be onetime privilege. So there is no hurt. If the bar is high this feature is less useful. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 4:30
  • If it was 500 rep, i'd expect the person who invited said person to be kicked in the event the person they invite gets kicked with a matching duration.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 18:45

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