193

It appears that the purpose of votes getting locked in after a few minutes is to prevent people from gaming the system with "tactical downvotes." It also appears that pretty much everyone agrees this is not effective, since it can be trivially circumvented by all but the lowest of low-rep users by making a fake edit. (As a side-effect, this policy encourages bogus edits.)

Meanwhile, it causes another real problem in addition to encouraging bogus edits: it makes it nearly impossible to change your mind if you don't want to create a bogus edit. The stated goal may be to discourage tactical downvoting, but it also means you can't rescind an upvote. I'm sure this has happened to pretty much everyone at one point or another: you open some old question, see that you were there a few hours (or days, weeks, months, years) ago, and that you upvoted something, and you look at it now and think "what was I thinking? That's obviously wrong!" But you can't remove the upvote because "tactical downvotes"?

Can we get this fixed please?

29
  • 19
    Sure it can be trivially circumvented, but that circumvention is trivially detected by everyone. That makes it an effective deterrent.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:23
  • 18
    @BilltheLizard: Don't be silly. All anyone can "trivially detect" is that someone made an edit, not the reason why. Users' voting records are kept secret, and even moderators have to do special stuff to gain access to them. I know; I'm a mod on another SE site. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:36
  • 5
    People were downvoting every competing answer to a question, then going back and removing their votes later. If you see someone edit all answers but their own, and a downvote is removed from your answer at the same time, it is trivial to figure out what happened.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:42
  • 8
    Some people just hate change Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:42
  • 11
    @BilltheLizard: And if that happens, then the user can be flagged and someone like you or me or whoever's a mod on the site where it happens can use our mod powers to smack them around for it. I see no point in trying to use technical rules to solve social problems, especially when they create further problems for honest users. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:45
  • 11
    I'm somewhat in agreement - I've sometimes found myself giving an upvote to encourage a low-rep user to join the community, only to find that the post turns into endless-additional-questions and/or fix-it-for-me, at which point retracting the upvote sometimes is appropriate.
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:49
  • 2
    If you don't have the technical solution in place, who's going to flag the behavior? It will go undetected.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:49
  • 5
    @Servy: I don't believe in automatically punishing anyone for anything, ever. But such a system could easily detect what appears to be a problem--and much more accurately than the current mechanism which casts far too broad a net for the problem it's supposedly solving--and flag it for moderator attention, so that a real human being with reasoning, intuition and judgment can handle it appropriately. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:04
  • 4
    If we can come up with an alternative solution to tactical downvoting (something like the serial vote fraud detection system), I'd be happy to see vote locks revisited as well.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:06
  • 4
    @Servy: It's really not that difficult. We already know that the system tracks the time that each vote was cast. So look for cancellation (or even replacement with upvotes) of downvotes cast within X minutes of posting an answering to the same question. Unless the system doesn't record the cancellation of votes the same way it does the casting of votes, (and I'm pretty sure I've heard that it does, to track something else,) there's no reason it couldn't be done. Do it once, the system takes notice. Do it multiple times within a reasonably small period, it reports to the mods. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:27
  • 4
    I still want this feature
    – Viliami
    Commented Jan 2, 2017 at 2:36
  • 11
    @Viliami It's not even a feature. It's a bug that needs fixing.
    – endolith
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 4:20
  • 3
    I downvoted something and then realised too late that it didn't deserve the down vote but now I can't remove it ; not a tactical down vote - a genuine error. Just lock accounts for people who are tactical-down-voting as detected by the system and verified by a moderator and let everyone else change their minds.
    – Bob
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 10:56
  • 13
    I am amazed that this policy remains in force. This is the dumbest thing ever. It has bitten me twice today. People learn things, people change their minds – and they want to change their votes as a consequence. Preventing that, in an ineffective and quixotic attempt to prevent tactical downvoting, is totally counterproductive. Treat the disease, not the symptom. Surely it would be easy to allow, say, one vote change per day without breaking anything. Let people change their minds! This is my vote!
    – bhaller
    Commented Nov 21, 2019 at 0:46
  • 3
    I downvoted a question on a mis-click when my phone was lagging (from a previous up-vote), and was unable to undo it. That question undeservedly lost two points because of this policy. Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 2:54

11 Answers 11

135

The vote-lock does not make any sense. From this answer:

The primary reason is to prevent "tactical downvoting". That is, downvoting the other answers on a question to get yours to rise to the top and, presumably, attract more upvotes. Then, once your answer has enough of a lead, undownvote those other answers to prevent the "hit" on your own reputation.

There are two odd points in this explanation:

  1. If I haven't posted an answer to the question, downvoting will not offer me any advantage. So why does the system forbid undoing a mistaken vote in that case?

  2. If I were to engage in tactical downvoting, I would not care about reversing the downvotes. A single answer upvote allows a user to downvote 9 others while still showing a profit. I would not even notice the locking feature.

So it’s time to evaluate what this feature sacrifices (the ability to revert a vote placed in error) and what it offers (inadequate protection against—at least this kind of—abuse).

7
  • 1. Because you could still write an answer after doing your downvoting. IMO (I don't work for SE) it would be too complicated/costly to make this type of exception. The system would have to keep track of the fact you downvoted there and then lock you out from undoing your downvotes after you answer? Sure it's in the database, but that's an extra query every time anyone ever wants to vote. 2. You might not bother with it, but in other posts written by Jeff or others, many people were doing exactly this... they were bothering with undoing the downvotes. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 16:12
  • 20
    @CoolHandLouis: the system already does things like checking whether more than five minutes have been elapsed since the downvoting and whether the answer has been edited since the downvote happened. Checking whether the downvoter has provided an answer on his own is actually cheaper than that. And there’s still no explanation why upvoting is affected by this lock-in as well. Making that distinction would not require any (extra) query at all. And if you ever concern about the performance of all these checks, there is a simple solution: just abolish this vote lock-in.
    – Holger
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 16:21
  • 26
    I can think of other reasons why locking votes doesn't make any sense than the reasons you mentioned. First of all, why lock votes on questions if the purpose is to prevent tactical voting on answers? Second of all, why lock upvotes if the purpose is to prevent tactical downvotes? Third of all, why lock votes on comments if comments don't affect reputation? If I think harder, I could surely think of a lot more reasons why locking votes doesn't make sense. So I strongly agree that the vote locking feature should be removed. Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 16:02
  • 12
    I strongly agree that vote locking should be removed. I find it bizarre that anyone considers this a "feature".
    – endolith
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 4:25
  • 2
    I totally agree. Please remove this "feature".
    – bob
    Commented Jun 7, 2019 at 21:36
  • 1
    From what I understand this rule only intends to prevent downvoting. So why can't I retract my upvote? Anyone who prevents retracting upvotes is only interested in a 'feels good' solution as opposed to a logical and realistic approach. I assumed stackoverflow was interested in being logical; I assumed wrong. Please allow retracting upvotes because it's very needed.
    – Logic1
    Commented Nov 7, 2020 at 16:49
  • I've never once seen this happen
    – Kermit
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 1:03
69

I found that I had accidentally downvoted an answer when I just meant to cancel an upvote I thought I had given. I didn't discover it until it was locked, and now I can't undo it. I'd certainly be for a different system (or a tweak to this one).

6
  • 22
    That's pretty much how I wound up here...
    – David
    Commented Jun 8, 2015 at 22:18
  • 2
    I'm in the boat next to you, checking in 1 year later!
    – user736893
    Commented Dec 2, 2016 at 16:27
  • 2
    In my case, I downvoted but then (weeks) later realized that the solution was in fact no so bad.
    – Tommy
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 16:49
  • 1
    I just downvoted an answer yesterday, and then the question was changed and the answer fits the clarification.
    – Daniel H
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 17:01
  • 3
    The unfortunate fact is that you can undo it, but it requires you to edit the answer (simply adding an extra space after a period will do the trick). Of course it shouldn't be this way, and doing so makes for a messy edit history.
    – bob
    Commented Jun 7, 2019 at 21:38
  • 2022, still annoyed, I downvoted pre-maturely thinking the suggested wouldn't work, now I see the answer did make sense and wanted to remove my downvote, but... Here I am :)
    – Tomer W
    Commented Jun 21, 2022 at 4:18
54

I've always been pretty skeptical of "tactical downvoting" being enough of a problem to warrant this kind of a solution. My gut feeling is that most of the folks who complain about it are actually concerned about a rather different sort of behavior.

Don't get me wrong—tactical voting is possible, but it's still possible even with vote locking, which only serves to remove some of the more esoteric possibilities.

I suspect—though I cannot prove—that vote locking acts more as a deterrent than anything: once you know your vote can't be retracted, you also know that there's a permanent record of it. Nevermind that this record could (and does) exist anyway; folks tend to just assume that information they've removed gets hard deleted until something tells them otherwise. If you're inclined to play silly games with votes, knowing that you cannot clean up after yourself if you cross a line somewhere might well be enough to discourage you. And speaking of silly games...

The real reason for vote locking: prevent griefing

Forget about the folks gambling on tactical voting to get their answers upvoted; the unrestricted ability to cast, retract, or reverse votes creates the potential for much more disruptive forms of abuse:

  • Carefully vote someone into a new privilege bracket, then reverse all those votes causing them to lose a large amount of reputation in a short time, regaining only some of it when the voting fraud detection scripts run.
  • Gradually spread a large number of upvotes across the top posts/users on a site, your votes disappearing into the vast numbers of other incoming votes on these posts. Then retract them all suddenly, causing widespread confusion on the site.
  • Pick one post, and toggle your vote on it every hour/day/whatever until the owner is driven insane.
  • Participate on the site constructively for years, voting for thousands of posts, and then take offense at some interaction and retract all of your votes in order to punish the wicked community that would allow someone to talk to you that way.

None of these are hypothetical, BTW. Nor is this list exhaustive. Folks have done or tried to do all of this at one point or another, and while vote-locking doesn't eliminate them it does make accomplishing them considerably slower and more labor-intensive for the griefer. I don't know if any of this factored into the original decision to implement it, but it wouldn't surprise me - and even if griefing wasn't a concern back then, I'd be very reluctant to remove the locks now because of it.

15
  • 39
    There is a maximum of 40 votes in a day which makes the scenario of retracting thousands of vote at a time very far fetched, assuming that changing a vote should be as limited as casting a new vote. I’m quite sure that treating multiple vote changes on the same post like any other sequence of multiple votes, i.e. apply the limit and detect them as serial voting, wouldn’t be that hard.
    – Holger
    Commented May 5, 2015 at 14:46
  • 16
    Maybe I'm ignorant, but somehow none of the four bullets appear to be seriously damaging to anyone. Especially considering Holger's comment about the vote limits right above. I could imagine that someone is so insane to even create sockpuppets to implement such a griefing strategy. But then there must be a way for the site to trigger a moderator action if it detects a certain number of votes on a user's posts per day. Such a trigger would be non-intrusive, while the lock-in surely is.
    – cfi
    Commented Sep 11, 2015 at 8:42
  • 6
    As the name implies, the point of griefing is... to cause grief. Frustration. Annoyance. @cfi. It doesn't matter that the problems caused are minor or can be fixed after the fact - if your goal is to make people unhappy then you've achieved that goal even if the means by which you accomplished it are later removed. Also note that "fixing" problems with voting often runs counter to the philosophy of personal voting autonomy and privacy, so that's actually quite a challenge.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 11, 2015 at 15:46
  • 5
    Grief, frustration, and annoyance are different things. I'm annoyed at having to stop at red lights, frustrated if it's the fifth red light on my way. We have to live with such. Life is full of things we don't like and even cause frustration. Griefing is causing frustration on purpose. But even that cannot be stopped 100%. Neighbors may mow the grass every day even if it's only for griefing. Some things we just have to tolerate, otherwise we impose rule on everybody causing more harm than the odd griefing. There has to be a balance of rules. Imho, vote locking has been one step too far.
    – cfi
    Commented Sep 13, 2015 at 9:50
  • 5
    I'm using a term with a specific meaning in this context, @cfi: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 13, 2015 at 15:29
  • 3
    Why do you think that that definition is different than what I used - in my comment? Even if you insist on the WP definition, my comment is still valid. While I don't like escalating examples, since my example above goes unheeded, I'll present one stronger: Terrorists essentially do the same thing: They cause much "frustration" with the goal to destabilize established systems. And our government's reactions is exactly what they want: They overreact for various (and wrong) reasons, impose rules that make life harder for everyone but still do not prevent acts of terror. They never will.
    – cfi
    Commented Sep 14, 2015 at 6:31
  • 14
    These are seriously paranoid concerns. How can concerns like this (that, by the way, can be solved in other ways) take priority over the quality of the content of the site?
    – devios1
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 19:44
  • 1
    @devios1: If you have some clever ideas to solve the problems Shog's outlined, you should probably add them as an answer here. I'd be interested; it seems a challenging proposition. Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 22:09
  • 5
    Well tbh I don't see the given examples as being things that need to be avoided, but perhaps I'm not understanding the depth of their implications. But given that a user can only vote at most once for any post, the "widespread confusion" would basically be limited to a one vote decrease on every post, which is hardly detrimental. In short, these seem like very fringe cases that do not warrant the constant inconvenience to regular honest users. If the concern is tactical downvoting, perhaps simply not allowing votes on peer answers, and only allow voting on questions you don't yourself answer.
    – devios1
    Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 22:16
  • 2
    In a certain sense, everything connected to the reputation system is trivial and inconsequential. But of course, from that perspective it matters not a whit what we do allow or don't allow... So when you have hundreds of people complaining about losing rep because someone was bored one day, @devios1, it makes sense to add some resistance to these things.
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 22:29
  • Perhaps the problem is negative rep in the first place.
    – devios1
    Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 22:30
  • 2
    That's not the real reason for vote-locking.
    – Viliami
    Commented Jan 2, 2017 at 2:40
  • 4
    It's not the official reason, @Viliami. It's the best reason though, IMHO.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 2, 2017 at 2:41
  • 11
    None of those 4 reasons in any way justifies vote locking. The cure is much worse than the disease. If you're that worried about non-existent griefing, then just make it cost rep to change votes. Not letting us change mistaken votes at all is harmful to the accuracy of the site.
    – endolith
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 4:11
  • Just adding my voice here in opposition to this vote locking nonsense. There should at least be a confirmation dialog to let the user know they are making an intractable error when they mistakenly vote on something rather than telling them after the fact "hey, sorry, we don't let you do that[; but if you want to know why, go dig through the meta site for a weak and paranoid justification for the inconvenience and forced inaccuracy]." Commented Jun 10, 2023 at 16:59
30

I would be quite happy to sacrifice one rep every time I change a vote. I am much more concerned with the accuracy of my votes than with my exact rep count – as a good citizen of SO ought to be. Would this not fix the problem? Why is this still a thing?

22

"Progress is impossible without change and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
- George Bernard Shaw

Apologies in advance for the long post, but I am going to examine some aspects of both sides of the discussion. (1) The problems with vote lock-in. (2) The problems vote lock-in attempts to solve.

I'm sure many will disagree with me, but I'd appreciate full consideration of this post before casting your vote.


One problem with vote lock-in policy is that it is in direct conflict with the anonymous voting policy. (This is not intended to discuss the merits or otherwise of the anonymous voting policy. Just pointing out that these policies conflict with each other.)

Starting with the "legitimate" vote retraction cases:

  • Post was up/down voted while bleary eyed and you realise you made a horrible mistake.
  • Post was voted up/down at a time before you knew any better. You've learnt since then that your previous opinion/testing/belief was flawed.
  • Post was voted up/down but changed within the 5 minute window that collapses the edit into the previous version. Meaning that for the purpose of retracting your vote "due to an edit", the post is considered not edited?!

In all of the above cases, in order to change your vote, the current "workaround" is that: you need to post a fake edit (if you can). It has been pointed out that it's more work. But the recording of the last edit means you might as well add the following paragraph to the bottom of the post.

Hello SO community. Contrary to anonymous voting principles, I must publicly declare: I realise I made a voting mistake in the past. Let it be known that:

  • Whereas you did not previously even know if I had voted at all, you now can easily deduce what my previous vote was (as the one retracted not long after the edit).
  • Furthermore, in the likely event that I cast a new vote in the opposite direction, you could similarly deduce whodunnit.
  • Fortunately any compatriots who made a similar voting mistake on this post will be able to return in the months and years to come; and fix their errors in anonymity. For I have revealed myself in shameful humility to reap the antagonistic attentions of those I had hoped to avoid when I initially cast my anonymous vote.

(NOTE: If the above sounds absurd, that's the point. I consider vote lock-in to be utterly absurd!)

If you wish your votes to remain truly anonymous, you're unable to retract your vote (until the post happens to be edited): meaning that incorrect voting (_as in contrary to the voters current opinion_) remains locked in. This is exactly the opposite of any self-correcting system.


Of course "justifications" have been stated and some mooted for the lock-in rule. Hard evidence has even been suggested, though I've not seen any.

Possible reasons include to discourage tactical down-voting and prevent griefing. I'd also moot that it helps reduce a user jumping back and forth over privilege boundaries (though this is an issue in any case).

There's one thing that all these alleged problems have in common - they all involve 'large' numbers of retracted votes. In this case the simple non-invasive solution is to throttle the number of vote retractions instead of blocking them altogether.

Allowing only one retraction per day should resolve the alleged problems just as effectively as the current; which throws the baby out with the bath-water. However, even restricting vote retraction to 1 per 30 days might be enough to at least allow some of the incorrect votes to be fixed.


If I have managed to change anyone's mind on the matter, please fake edit Mason's post (even if the post has already been edited) to change your vote. :)

2
  • I agree with the first two sections, but disagree with the third, and am ambivalent about the fourth. No vote for you.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 8, 2017 at 17:55
  • 5
    Other legitimate vote retraction reasons: The question is edited in a way that changes an answer's correctness. Reality changes in a way that changes the answer's correctness.
    – endolith
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 4:16
-5

I voted incorrectly in the past and I can't fix it.

I'm a software developer trying to contribute to a curated body of knowledge that is freely shared with every aspiring software developer who has access to the global internet.

Nobody cares about your silly internet points.

I would like to opt out of this feature and also the "minimum six character edit" feature.

I'm an adult. I *promise* to not misuse the power to change my own vote (my own!) or make single character edits. 🙄

2
  • 4
    After all the things I've seen from people claiming to be adults, I can assure you that playing the adult card is unlikely to work here. Note also that the minimum six character editing serves a different purpose, and is a restriction which you are close to lifting anyway.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jul 21, 2022 at 16:19
  • 1
    My point is that I do not feel respected. It's my own upvote, I should be able to remove it as I see fit.
    – daveloyall
    Commented Jul 21, 2022 at 19:55
-6

I don't think that tactical down-voting is widespread enough to limit functionality like we have, nor do I think that the inability to undo down-votes is severe enough to have a meaningful impact.

I think that the vote lock is a barrier to use that we really don't need.

You should take this knowing that I have only been active here since around 2012 reaping the benefits of this anti-tactical down-voting feature, so I might not have experienced the terrors of tactical downvoting that everyone else is so afraid of.

15
  • 12
    When your medicine successfully suppresses a disease it's not a sign that you should stop taking your medicine. This inappropriate behavior isn't widespread because there are features in place to inhibit it. It becomes a problem when you remove those features.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:43
  • 19
    @Servy I have a rock to sell you that keeps tigers away. I don't see any tigers around here. Do you? Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:46
  • 9
    @Servy: That's actually a pretty horrible analogy. You oughtta do a bit of research into where antibiotic-resistant super-bacteria come from... Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:46
  • 7
    @SamIam cough meta.stackoverflow.com/users/3584354/tiger cough
    – Bart
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:47
  • 1
    There was significant evidence to suggest that this particular feature was the cause of the resolution to this problem. It is documented that this was a problem, and the problem went away in response to this change. If someone performed a study that demonstrated a statistically meaningful reduction in tiger attacks by people holding onto Sam's Rock™ then I wouldn't stop using it when bushwhacking through African jungles just because I had never been attacked by a Tiger before.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:49
  • 3
    @MasonWheeler And you could look into all of the cases of people dying because they decided to stop taking their anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, etc. (I feel better now, I totally don't need this any more!) An understanding of the situation is of course appropriate. When the medicine is treating the symptoms, not the disease, you need to keep taking it. When a medicine is capable of curing the disease and preventing it from coming back, you stop taking it after it's gone. In this analogy, this feature hasn't stopped people from ever wanting to vote abusively, just treated the symptom.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:51
  • 4
    @Servy: When a medicine is treating a symptom and not a disease, one of two things is happening. 1) The body can take care of the disease if you just keep the symptoms from killing you long enough. 2) The body can't, and some sleazy drug company realized it would be more profitable to keep a patient buying their product for the rest of their life than to find a way to actually fix the problem at its source. #2 is far more common in today's world. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:58
  • 8
  • 1
    @MasonWheeler Even taking your statement to be true, you shouldn't refuse to treat a disease that you have just because some drug company isn't inventing the money into the research to find a cure (or even if they have a cure and are refusing to give it to you). You still can't get cured either way, so you have the choice of either living with the symptoms, which for many chronic diseases can be life threatening, or you can pay to treat the symptoms. Having said that, there are absolutely diseases that are chronic, and that are most certainly nowhere near curable with today's technology.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:04
  • 2
    @SamIam That post is doubting the scale of the problem, not the existence of it. It's claiming that "not every single question involves voting fraud". That's a pretty low bar.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:05
  • 3
    The analogy is apt if the disease is caused by a virus, @MasonWheeler: polio is apparently making a comeback due to a decrease in vaccinations, e.g.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:48
  • @SamIam: For the first time in a century, wild tiger populations are beginning to rebound. Coincidence?!? o.O Commented Apr 12, 2016 at 2:01
  • 1
    @Servy the problem wasn't wide spread to begin with. The top answer states that the problem isn't common back in 2009: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/22771/…
    – Viliami
    Commented Jan 3, 2017 at 9:20
  • 1
    @Viliami It actually states that the person doesn't think it's widespread, without anything beyond their personal experience to back it up. Additionally, the as said earlier in this comment chain, the problem doesn't need to be super widespread to be worth this feature, the vote lock in just needs to remove enough instances of it to do more good than the problems the lock in itself causes.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 3, 2017 at 14:18
  • 3
    How does this solve tactical downvoting? People can still down vote, it just means the vote is permanent instead of temporary. And when people can see tactical down-voting happen nothing happens since its not reportable.
    – Viliami
    Commented Jan 5, 2017 at 1:53
-7

I think SE can easily detect "tactical downvoting" as these have very distinctive behavior:

  1. the user has an answer on the question
  2. the user has downvoted most answers to the question
  3. the user has reverted most his/her downvotes on the question (this is important as sometimes people do (arrogantly) think their answer is the one and everything else deserves a downvote!)

Defining "most answers" is a bit tricky, but it can be done.

Detection of such behaviour should be submitted for review of a moderator... And if it actually was a true flag, the user should be dealing with consequences, a reputation hit or even a ban if the user keeps doing so.

This way, IMHO, we can punish the bad guys rather than taking a collective hit.

-11

I do not agree that we should remove the lock-in.

If you find yourself wanting to go back and vote a different way often, than that likely means you need to double-read the post's before voting and/or waiting longer till you vote on it.

Another reason we should not remove the lock-in is because user's who rage quit, could go through all their upvotes and change them to downvotes in spite of whatever their mad about.

Recently, a question (now removed for some reason) was brought up, where a user unaccepted like all ~20 of their previously accepted answers to their questions. Generally speaking, users have many more times votes than they do accepted answers to their questions, so the damage could be much worse with rage downvoting.

9
  • 7
    Who cares? How often do users with a non-trivial number of upvotes rage-quit? There's this one case and... what else? Using something that's nowhere near a systemic problem to justify the existence of something that is a systemic problem is the tail wagging the dog. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:07
  • 8
    I'm just guessing, but if a user rage-quits wouldn't their account be deleted, in which case wouldn't the votes be removed anyway? Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:19
  • 2
    @MasonWheeler It does actually happen fairly regularly. I certainly see evidence of it far more often that I wish I could revert a vote that's locked in.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:23
  • 1
    I don't believe you get "credit" for an undone vote from a previous day, so the ragequitter would only be able to cast the same 30 or so votes that e would in any case.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 19:44
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot Only if that user contacts the team requesting it, and writes in his profile "please delete me". However, I'd think rage quitters don't normally take the time to actually delete their account, but who knows for sure?
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Jul 17, 2014 at 2:00
  • 5
    It's not always possible to know in advance that you will change your mind. For example, a comment can make you realize that the post is not as good or as bad as you thought. Also, if it's an answer with a code, you might test the code under particular circumstances and find that it works and upvote the answer, and then some days later test the code under different circumstances and find that it doesn't always work and that it's just a coincidence that it worked the first time. It would be silly to be stuck with an upvote on an answer that in the general case is wrong. Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 16:15
  • 3
    Besides, if undoing a vote is counted as voting for purpose of the limit of 40 votes per day, people can't go around undoing thousands of votes per day. Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 16:15
  • 9
    "If you find yourself wanting to go back and vote a different way often," It's not often but for the few times I DO want to change my vote I want a better solution than "you should've read it better".
    – Viliami
    Commented Jan 3, 2017 at 9:12
  • 2
    Shoot I accidentally downvoted this answer, complete misclick. Dang too bad it's locked in.
    – wizebin
    Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 0:54
-12

The costs to the voting system of locking votes to prevent abuse has to be greater than the harm the abuse caused in the first place. I don't care the least about how many points any given user has, and by extension, I don't care how that user got them. I do, however, care about whether or not my votes actually reflect my opinion about a given answer.

It seems like a bunch of people who care a great deal about points—people who've risen through the ranks by caring about them—are concerning themselves more with points used to signify rank and status than used as their core purpose: determining what content is good.

If tactical downvoting was detectable before, which I'm guessing it was since it was determined it's a big enough issue to fundamentally change the entire voting system over, then accepting that detection mechanism and the investigative work required to counter the issue should be the course of action, not locking every single vote until the answer is changed to the detriment of the core mechanism of the voting system. The priorities were upside down in this decision.

2
  • 5
    Your second paragraph is entirely speculative. Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 17:44
  • Privileges are directly tied to reputation. The targeted issue revolves around reputation, not the value of content. The trusted community is largely involved in informing and developing solutions such as this feature. The only thing that's speculative is the extent of involvement surrounding this particular feature, hence the opening qualifier, but that hardly makes the paragraph entirely speculative. And anyway, the takeaway from that paragraph is the distinction between focusing on reputation and focusing on content. Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 17:59
-20

Here is my idea for a compromise between the risk of tactical voting (in my eyes voting fraud if you do not go solely for content) and the wish for commitment but also the wish for flexibility.

Allow changing a vote always but make it everytime weighing less and less.

Simple and clean. Everytime you reverse a vote its weight is multiplied by a number smaller than one to reflect that there was a time when you were of different opinion and to reflect that you are not exactly decided.

Tactical voting anymore - killed. Flexible - to some extent. Encouraging commitment - to some extent. Extent adjustable - sure (determined by the weight loss factor).

5
  • Wouldn't this simply penalize the person whose posts you were voting for? As long as I can undo the vote, I've achieved the primary purpose of unethical tactical voting. I don't care if the person whose post I voted for actually gets any rep.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 10, 2017 at 9:36
  • @CodyGray Maybe. It's an old discussion and I do not remember the details anymore. I thought it makes some sense back then as a compromise between lock-in and change-your-mind. Also it was about weighing the score and the rep (not only the rep) less whenever you flip. I guess tactical voting is more difficult to fight, I mean I could just downvote concurrent answers, even if they are good. No need to want to reverse my vote ever. Commented Jan 10, 2017 at 9:57
  • The need to reverse your downvote comes from the desire to get the reputation point(s) back that downvoting cost you. Anyway, didn't notice the date on your answer and didn't mean to make you revisit something you'd forgotten your logic for. I just saw this answer as I was downvoting a more recent one.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 10, 2017 at 10:12
  • @CodyGray "The need to reverse your downvote comes from the desire to get the reputation point(s) back that downvoting cost you." Yes, I agree although I would say it's not a big need, after all downvoting is relatively cheap if the purpose is increase probability to get upvotes on yourself. Then I would rather outrightly forbid downvoting on answers on questions where you have a competing answer in the game. But this then might be too strong. There might be actual warranted downvotes. Commented Jan 10, 2017 at 10:18
  • 2
    Yeah, I would be totally against that. There are lots of cases where downvotes on competing answers are warranted. In >90% of the cases where I post an answer to a question that already has other answers, it's because the existing answers are unfixably wrong. Otherwise, I'll simply upvote or maybe edit an existing answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 10, 2017 at 10:21

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