81

The purpose of the vote lock is to stop tactical downvotes. 5 minutes is too short to deal with second thoughts. It can take around 30 minutes to dive deep into or think about an answer or question after the first read and impression.

Is there a reason for the vote lock timer to be less than a day? Why don't we raise it to at least 20 minutes?

Related:

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  • 76
    if you know that it takes you 30 minutes to properly think it through, more natural solution would be to delay casting your votes, wouldn't it. I know for example that for some posts it takes me longer than that (sometimes much longer) and I hold my votes until I am ready - works for me\
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 7:08
  • 4
    "5 minutes is too short to deal with second thoughts. It can take around 30 minutes to dive deep into or think about an answer or question after the first read and impression." Is there any research references backing this?
    – holydragon
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 8:29
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    Some people can vote within seconds and may even never have second thoughts. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 8:31
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    Even though the tactical downvoting issue is the official reason for locking votes, I don't think it's a good reason for locking votes at all, at least not upvotes. Most of the times I've wanted to undo a vote but couldn't it was an upvote, I don't see how locking upvotes could prevent tactical downvoting. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 16:27
  • 1
    @DonaldDuck Why should up votes be weighted/treated differently than down votes? Votes are intended to indicate the quality of a question/answer.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 17:54
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    @Drew Reese Because it is common practice to up-vote an answer when you start using it. It is common practice to down-vote an answer when you stop/decide not to use it. Once I start using an answer I might learn more about it's quality/validity.
    – 9072997
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 19:30
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    @9072997 That has a trivial solution as pointed out in gnat's initial comment, you should validate/assess content before voting on it. Your same argument/example could be made the other direction too, voting down an answer before testing it and later discovering it does actually resolve an issue. Do we flip/flop on which votes matter more for locking windows?
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 19:39
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    @Drew Reese Assume it's pre-2020 (as it was when the question was asked & answered). This looks like a correct answer, and works most of the time, but contrary to what the answer says, it IS racy until Windows 10 20H2. I am only going to do basic validation of an answer before voting. If it looks good I will use it and implicitly do extensive validation. Answers that appear to work, but have hidden problems are real. Answers that appear not to work, but actually work seem like they would be rare.
    – 9072997
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 19:49
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    Also, Jeff Atwood's justification (2009): "To help deal with the "tactical downvoting" problem, we have radically reduced the window for undoing votes. ... now a 5 minutes window" Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 19:49
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    Tactical downvoting explained. It was noticed very early on (a few months after the launch). The mitigation did not help in a case of tactical downvoting for a bounty. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 20:15
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    Cross-site link: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/18788/…
    – Joshua
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 20:16
  • @gnat, "If you know that it takes you 30 minutes to properly think it through, more natural solution would be to delay casting your votes" - But that is the point of the OP's post isn't it? You often don't know. You take an action based on your immediate discernment. And for most issues, that's fine - done and dusted. But sometimes you start to dwell on things a bit....
    – ouflak
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 6:25
  • @ouflak I understand, because this is just how I myself started voting. After I noticed that immediate discernment brings more mistakes than I'm comfortable with, I built me a habit to additionally check whether my first glance impression fully covers it or there may be something worthy digging deeper. This extra check doen't take much time (after you practice) and typically ends with conclusion that further digging isn't needed so it's not a big deal overall - however it made amount of my voting mistakes comfortably low
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:53
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    On MSE four days earlier: Get Rid of Vote Locking Commented May 2, 2022 at 21:11
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    I pressed an upvote by accident, was interrupted by a tornado siren, and could not fix the error afterward. Five minutes is ridiculously short even without such extenuating circumstances. It should be much longer— especially for upvotes, which as noted by several here, never needed to be covered by the time limit to reduce tactical downvoting.
    – mlncn
    Commented Mar 3, 2023 at 20:27

3 Answers 3

99

Problems with solutions are not always immediately obvious, even once you try them

I have occasionally fallen victim to this: I try a solution, it works, I upvote it...and then 15 minutes or an hour later, as I've continued to build on it, I realize it actually had a hidden limitation or footgun that made it a bad idea, and another solution would have been better. I cast my vote after having validated it...or so I thought, but I still had a legitimate reason to retract my vote an hour later.

In terms of preventing the sort of mass unvoting that is the stated goal of vote locking, even a timeout of as much as an entire day would be completely effective, and it would give plenty of time to discover hidden issues that you might have missed at first. This would help the actual best answers rise to the top, not just the ones that seem best at first glance.

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    What actually happened when there wasn't locking is that some people would try to attract the attention of people they thought could answer their questions via morse code voting and cancelling on their existing answers. I believe that's why locking was introduced. 1 day of this per post you have would be annoying, no? Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 7:32
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    @RobertLongson I...don't understand how that would possibly have the desired effect (how would the person even know where to look?), though it does sound extremely annoying. Can't you already do this, though?
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 7:34
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    One nice thing about lengthening vote locking (to a not-extremely-long duration) is that it could easily be tried as an experiment with no lasting effects, since older votes would still remain locked, and you could simply shorten again it if the experiment failed.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 7:35
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    5 minutes and you're locked out. That seems to have been short enough to stop the morse code attempts. I assume you'd signal in morse code which question needed help with. I have no evidence it ever worked except to annoy people. Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 7:42
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    I guess I'd hope people wouldn't do something that is not only annoying and likely to earn a suspension if the moderators ever find out you're doing it (though it'd likely require CM assistance in many cases), but also ineffective at achieving the intended goal.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 7:46
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    Could make the 'Vote Lock Duration' a "Privilege" with 3 States [5min | 1h | 24h] depending on Rep and/or Number of Answers posted/accepted... :idea:
    – chivracq
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 8:48
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    @RobertLongson You can apparently still do the Morse code thing but you're limited to 30 vote changes per post or something. I don't know who actually does this.
    – Laurel
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 17:26
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    Perhaps summary execution of morse-code voters would be a better solution. And good for the environment, too! Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 22:56
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    @Laurel, interesting. Why is the limit to the number of vote changes is as high as 30? Wouldn't a much lower number be sufficient, say 3? The one-day timer can be coupled with this so the risk of voting abuse is lowered.
    – justhalf
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 3:58
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    @justhalf: 3 is too low. A mis-click initially, followed by changing a downvote to an upvote after an edit, and you're already at the limit. (Especially if you do it in 2 steps, undownvote and then upvote after thinking some more.) Maybe 8 or 10 would be a good number people would be still unlikely to ever run into except by abuse. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 4:06
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    At any rate, it seems like the annoying behavior is controlled by the number of total times one can change their vote on a given post, rather than the maximum time they have available to do so. Thus, it shouldn't be an obstacle to making this change.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 4:09
  • @RobertLongson I can't possibly believe that would work anywhere except in a community of radio/HAM enthusiasts... and then only if they sit at their desk all day watching live vote counts rise and fall. Do you have a link to a Meta post somewhere discussing that problem, by any chance? I'd be very interested to read more about it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 13:25
  • @TylerH in terms of sending a message in morse code no it's not going to work. With no restrictions an idiot could keep changing votes indefinitely to keep a question/answer they wanted you to do something with at the top of your inbox indefinitely. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 14:37
  • If it only happens occasionally, what's the problem (with not correcting it)? There's far far more noise in the system than that.
    – davidbak
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 15:25
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    @DanIsFiddlingByFirelight Are you a sock puppet account of Robert Longson or something? I'm confused why you are trying to explain the intent behind someone else's apparently literal comment as if you would know authoritatively that the comment was not meant literally.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 20:43
5

I agree that five minutes is too short and even thirty minutes can be woefully short if an answer that you've put into practice turns out to have a showstopper issue down the road.

If the only reason that the five-minute rule exists is to try and prevent tactical voting then I think the rule should only apply if you have an answer on that question.

The tactical voting explanations that I've seen so far all involve the tactical voter having an existing answer that they are trying to get upvoted more than the others.

Adding the above condition to the five-minute rule would keep the existing control on tactical voting but it would free up anyone that isn't involved in the answers section to change their vote as they see fit.

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    Some of the explanations involve voting rings gaming the system on each other's behalf. IDK if that would make it easier for them to do that without locked-in evidence of permanent votes. Of course that's already against the rules, so the only question is whether that makes it too hard for current or possible-future mechanisms to catch abusers of the system. I'd guess a 30 minute time limit doesn't introduce problems, but a multi-day limit could be different. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 22:15
  • I feel like different rules based on if you have an answer on the question would get complex with added/deleted answers. Maybe a simpler solution would be to de-bounce vote changes (with a magnitude of hours/days).
    – 9072997
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 22:24
  • @PeterCordes I thought about voting rings and sockpuppets but then wondered about the likelihood that they would voluntarily change their votes. I imagined they would carry on upvoting (or downvoting in case of a victim) as much as they dare. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 23:42
  • But that's the thing: if there aren't permanent upvotes from within a cluster of users, they're a lot less likely to get caught. At any given point, there might only be a few outstanding votes on each other's answers to gain momentum. Of course it's less easy to farm rep without that big pool of upvotes within the group, but people that try to root out such abuses have commented about this being at least a possible problem with indefinite or multi-day vote unlocking. Commented Apr 27, 2022 at 2:06
-2

One way to optimize the vote lock timeout is through experimentation. This post, among others, describes the problem that the vote lock timeout is designed to address:

If you just witnessed tactical downvoting, is it a reportable offense?

Stack Exchange could do an experiment in which the timeout is varied from a few seconds to a few hours to infinity (no timeout). Measure the frequency of attempts of tactical downvoting (changing the vote by another answerer of the same question) and the frequency of attempts of legitimate change of vote (by other users). Choose a good balance of the two.

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    I don't see why SE should do experiments varying the timeout when they could instead do experiments where they monitor individuals' vote switching behavior and use that to make inferences about whether the behavior is malicious or not. Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 19:45

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