-54

How would you respond to this criticism?

Here is a summary of their criticism:

  1. A poster wanted a better understanding of a topic but the answerer told him to do more research.
  2. People come to ask and are downvoted and forced to delete their questions that seek opinions on how things are done.
  3. Responders tell posters that they are stupid and ugly.

I think the lack of voice inflections in the text makes for difficult situations. People see downvotes and text in the comments section and think mean and you maybe are or not.

The "do more research" or "just google it" thing should end - maybe this is their research, and they are at a dead end.

Telling new people who don't have a good grasp on how to search the site properly to operate a thing they had no adequate experience or training. You may know how to use the search bar but does Tim the newbie know?

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  • 30
    I don't care about rants without substantial evidence. Why bother about issues that may well be fake news? Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:01
  • 8
    'People see downvotes and text in the comments section and think mean and you maybe are or not.' who here cares? Why should I make such interpretation errors my problem? Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:05
  • 7
    I think a lot of people have this feeling about Stack Overflow.
    – Scratte
    Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:15
  • 22
    The earth is flat, Apollo 11 never happened and SO curators are hostile/toxic. Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:21
  • 9
    That video producer has a hidden agenda also - being a youtube influencer. Establishing big followings is financially rewarding and grievance sells in today's world
    – charlietfl
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 1:47
  • 5
    Is there anything new compared to this MSE post? Otherwise, keep calm and move on...
    – Andrew T.
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 1:59
  • 29
    Here is my response: The video is toxic and hostile.
    – VLAZ
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 5:26
  • 8
    "Meta is for Stack Overflow users to communicate with each other about Stack Overflow (asking questions about how the websites work, or about policies and community decisions)" Since we're discussion some YouTuber's rant about his biased experiences on SO, we're not talking about SO, we're discussing some video... Sounds to me we can close this.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 6:34
  • 9
    I assume you will use this Meta post to make another video?
    – rene
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 6:49
  • 15
    If we can't use Meta SO to debunk the poor, overemotional claims made in the video about Stack Overflow and its community, we can't do that anywhere else. This is also not the first time I see a video with this title linked around here. Let's keep this question open. It may serve us well as an example of how these external accusations are very often biased and presented by people who did not care to understand how the site works.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:40
  • 11
    @Cerbrus But then no one else can voice their opinion.. and then it's less discussion and debunking and instead more "Go away" and "Talk about it somewhere else than on Stack Overflow". I don't see how that doesn't just validate the gatekeeper accusations.
    – Scratte
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 8:24
  • 5
    'forced to delete their questions' yeah..how? At gunpoint? Threatening family? Blackmail? Commented May 10, 2021 at 14:55
  • 6
    @Dharman Alas, even that response appears to raise problematic assertions: that there is a systemic issue of shaming less knowledgeable people; that intervenients should always go out of their way to assist askers in the event of off-topic questions; that closed questions should stay on the site, despite just a few minutes earlier saying that nothing is more frustrating than hitting a dead end.... I don't know, listening to all of these things is a real mental drain.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 16:11
  • 6
    'but people do tend to reply in a very cold way'....you mean like compilers and linkers, inconsiderately and heartlessly issuing pages of hostile and toxic error messages? Computers cannot be handled by feelings and, if 'new people' cannot understand the mindset of experienced developers that makes them effective, that's not a problem with the developers. Commented May 10, 2021 at 21:21
  • 6
    YouTuber Cody Engel responded: How To Use Stack Overflow (no, ForrestKnight, it's not full of idiots) Commented May 12, 2021 at 12:54

7 Answers 7

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To address the actual criticisms you've mentioned:

A poster wanted better understanding of a topic but the answerer told him to do more research.

Damn right, we even have an FAQ article on the topic - How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users?. If someone is asking you to research more, chances are the answer to the question can be trivially found without having to ask a question, and if not, we have flags for a reason.

people go to ask and are downvoted and forced to delete their questions seeking opinions how things are done.

Nobody is forced to delete their questions, but asking for opinions is explicity off topic, before asking a question on any online community (or indeed any offline community) you should make sure your question is actually suitable for the community you're asking.

Responders tell posters, their stupid and are ugly to them.

Citation needed.

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  • 12
    I mean, some do, but that's a reason to flag, not rage quit and claim that most people on SO are idiots in an off-site rant :rolling_eyes: The video overall reeks of misunderstandings around how the system works, including how to ask and when to flag. Commented May 10, 2021 at 9:22
  • 3
    The video actually reeks of someone who hasn’t asked or answered a single question on Stack Overflow and has audacity to say the community is full of idiots. I know nothing about Forest Knight, I know enough from that 2 minutes, to know I will never watch a single video of his. Commented May 10, 2021 at 11:22
  • 3
    @SecurityHound shameless copy-pasta from Yatin's answer: "He mentions a question he asked some 7 years ago." - they have at least asked at some point. They don't seem to have an account anymore though (I've done reverse image searches and name searches and haven't found anything; they might be using an alias though). It's definitely worth pointing out that they also say "[...] and it gave me my first Stack Overflow reward" - I assume this means badge, which implies that Forrest never read the tour (segway to code11's answer) Commented May 10, 2021 at 13:32
  • 3
    @Zoe - If somebody has only asked a single question in 7 years, I take that as somebody who is unfamiliar with Stack Overflow, and my opinion of Forest Knight stands (completely uninformed individual who is complaining about a community they have never attempted to join and know nothing about). Individuals who provide their uninformed opinion on something are individuals I don't even pay attention to. Commented May 10, 2021 at 13:43
42

OK. I'll start by saying a few things:

  1. This is my response and not SO's official response or anything like that...
  2. I have watched Forrest Knight's videos before and I like most of them. He seems like a good person.
  3. I remember watching this video and being rather disappointed by it. I am one of those 235 dislikers on his video.
  4. I have absolutely no knowledge about microservices.
  5. "Here is a summary of their criticism" - that is not a good summary. Nowhere in his video did he say "Responders tell posters that they are stupid and ugly.". So I am going to ignore this summary and quote the source directly. All the following quotes are from his video (unless stated otherwise).
  6. Because I can't see any of the posts/comments mentioned in the video, I'll give Forrest the complete benefit of the doubt.

1.

Video title:

Stack Overflow is full of idiots.

No, it is not.

2.

0:19 to 0:55

Last week I was doing some research about microservices trying to see if it was a good fit for my app and I came across a question where someone was just trying to get a better understanding of microservices. And one person had the audacity to start off their answer with you should do more research about microservices! - That is what he is doing! Exactly as a community member said on my Twitter post: "god forbid that he integrates some human interaction into his research process". He is trying to learn more about microservices, if I am studying something it would be very nice for me to ask somebody else. ... that is exactly what this person was asking on Stack Overflow - to get a better understanding of microservices. Why do you have to answer like that - "you should research about microservices yourself" - doesn't make any sense to me

Ok. So what I understand from this is that Forrest stumbled upon a question by some other user and another user had started their answer with "You should do some research".

Giving Forrest the full benefit of the doubt, I'll say these things:

  • Maybe the answerer was in the wrong and the OP did do enough research.
  • Not sure why the OP of the question didn't choose to include said research in their question.
  • If Forrest can provide the link to said question then its deletion could be discussed on Meta and further clarification could be given.
  • I'll leave this here because without the contents of that post I can't comment further.

3.

1:44 to 2:57

... this isn't an isolated event - I see all the time someone asks a question on Stack Overflow just to get absolutely destroyed and downvoted into the ground and forced to remove their question. And not only are they forced to remove their question - this has happened to me in the past, I remember asking a question trying to get an understanding of how other people went about starting their Java application. Cause I know there are some people who start very base model VP, they have a couple variables in a single class. Other people, I feel like, they like to do: "Ok I need all of these variable, I need all of these classes, I need all of these functions" and then later they go back in start assigning values to the variables and start filling out the functions and - I want to get better at understand how people did this cause I like to learn. This is many years ago, so obviously Stack Overflow hasn't changed in the past 5 years/6 years/7 years? Cause it was probably 7 years ago now, I was downvoted into the ground, people said you should read, you should just pick up a Java book if you don't know how to start an application yourself. ** shocked expression **. I am asking you how you do it. Why is everyone downvoting me? I don't understand why people have to be such assholes about it

Here Forrest is recollecting his past experiences at SO. He mentions a question he asked some 7 years ago. He also mentions that he didn't understand why he was being downvoted and calls the downvoters "assholes".

From what I understand, the question is very open-ended, aka needs focus (and is IMO probably opinion-based too). Hence the downvotes. I am pretty confident that the questions would have been closed and relevant links on how to improve the question were provided but Forrest chose not to improve it. Again, it would be better if he could provide a link to said question.

Also, note that Forrest took downvotes personally and doesn't understand what they signify.

Ok, let's see what else he has to say.

4.

3:04 to 3:33

... I don't know why you have to act like that when I am just trying to learn and not only that but Stack Overflow encourages you to give in those donwvotes, to these gatekeepers pressuring you to remove your comment by rewarding you for removing your comment. I don't know if it is still like that but 7 years ago, when I removed that comment because I was downvoted into the ground just trying to figure out how they started off their job application - I got my very first Stack Overflow reward. How stupid is that?

Now I have no idea what Forrest is describing here. I don't think that such a feature exists anymore. I have been on this site for almost 2 years and I haven't seen this. If such a feature existed 7 years ago then I have no knowledge about it. Maybe older community members can shed some light on it.

Thanks to Andrew for shedding some light on what they meant:

  1. I think Forrest is mixing posts with comments (since comments can't be downvoted anyway) and talking about the "Peer Pressure" badge.

5.

3:35 to 4:36

And not only that but take a look at this.

** shows youtube comments under the new youtube discussions feature. Forrest mentions that he has asked his followers to leave comments about their experience at SO **

... The one I found about microservices? Gone! probably deleted. And rewarded for by Stack Overflow.

** Picks a comment and reads it **

crazy, hell place for serious and professional development - such a toxic environment. Sometimes you got better luck asking in subreddits of technologies you are working on.

Fact! they reward you for removing it, but I already talked about that.

** Picks another comment **

Same exact experience as me.

First time I posted a question I was met with the same BS I ended up deleting my question because I felt so bad. Luckily, I am still in school so I could ask my professor for help.

** Picks another comment **

That is my biggest pet peeve, every dev is still learning something or another, just be humble and help if you can. If you can't keep your opinion to yourself.

Ok starting with the first comment, I agree that SO is not for everyone and not all programming-related questions are on-topic. Subreddits and discord groups might be better suited for such discussion. Or you can go to the Chat for more open-ended/opinion-based/off-topic questions.

Second comment: Again, I agree, some questions such as homework questions might not be the best thing to ask on SO. Your professors can give you guided advice. SO is not for that. We are not a help desk.

Last comment: Yes, every dev is learning, true. "Just be humble and help" - They do! It is crazy how much people here want to help you. Seriously. Ask a good question and see for yourself. Help us help you first though.

6.

4:50 to 5:05

** repeats himself (about that microservices part). I am ignoring that **

... don't come in here and be an asshole, don't be a smartass, don't - just keep scrolling. Don't answer anything or help them in a kind way, link to the documentation and say I just think very valuable for new developers if you haven't already looked at this...

Ok, look. I'll get this straight. SO is not a help desk. I know it is weird to hear at first (it was for me) but I'll quote something from Cody:

Remember that Stack Overflow is not a help desk. Our mission is not so much to help the asker, but rather to build up a library of high-quality Q&A on programming topics. Helping the asker is a nice side benefit, but our model is much more akin to Wikipedia

So you see, we can't just "keep scrolling". You don't fill up Wikipedia with crap and hope that people will find what they are looking for in all that. Hence the moderation, the downvotes, the closure, and the deletion. If you can't improve on your question such that it seems useful enough for other future visitors to the site, then your question needs to go.

7.

5:11 to 5:34

** Another comment **

I totally relate to this, and it’s not just stack overflow. When I first started to try and create my own web development projects, I thought it would be a good idea to join various programming discords to surround myself with like-minded people that could help answer questions from time to time. What I was met with, was condescending responses, people acting like I was stupid for not already knowing the answer, etc. I was shocked at how even in a channel meant for helping others, this was still the case. It deterred me from coming back and from then on I avoided asking questions on forums and stuck to reading and watching on my own.

I genuinely laughed that you choose to quote this comment. Just take a moment to appreciate the fact that their question wasn't received well anywhere! Maybe, just maybe, think that they might just be asking really really bad questions! Food for thought ;)

8.

5:36 to 6:38

** Finds tweets. The first tweet's contents have been repeated (ignoring it), the second tweet: **

I'll play devil's advocate here: The situation at stackoverflow is complex, its not as easy to spot right and wrong. Sometimes people are indeed lazy & we expect them to show what they've done already. Only then we can help them to improve it.

I disagree, or should I say that it is binary where it is right or wrong. If it is clear that the person asking has done no research of their own and is asking a question - it still doesn't give you the right to be an asshole. You still can be nice and say look I recommend that - put him in the right direction, like I said before, don't just be mean to the individual just because you feel like they haven't put in the work or just because they asked a question that you deemed stupid. You are not in the right to figure out whether or not a question is stupid.

Who is being an asshole here? Seriously who? The downvoters? The commenters that try to guide you to improve the question? "be nice and say look I recommend that" -- WE DO THAT. Seriously. People don't care. I can't emphasize this enough. You can create the best guide in the world on how to improve your question and link to it but what will you do if people just don't read it! You can take the horse to the water but you can't force it to drink.

Also, we follow the code of conduct here. So if you find any comment that you feel is too aggressive or rude or whatever then flag it.

9.

6:43 to end

I must say the worst part of it all is the simple fact when that happened to me, I questioned whether or not I wanted to be a programmer.

** Goes on along those lines. And ends on a motivational note. I am not typing all that here **

Don't take downvotes personally. Can't emphasize this enough either.

  • Reputation doesn't show your expertise.
  • Downvotes don't mean that we hate you.
  • We are not assholes/gatekeepers/smartasses.
  • We might not be the best site for your questions.

Ok. So what I have understood after all that is that Forrest doesn't understand what SO is about. Been there, done that. But the difference is that instead of choosing to understand why his question was downvoted/closed/deleted, he chose to make a video about it.

And Forrest, if you happen to read this somehow:

I regularly watch and enjoy your videos, but as I said before, I was very disappointed with this particular video. I am a young dev and SO is a gold mine of a resource. I have been helped here before and I am sure I will be helped here in the future. And I want people to understand and use this resource to its full extent and contribute to it as much as possible. Your video didn't do this. It just pushed forward the clickbaity narrative that we are elitists and gatekeepers and that people shouldn't use SO. This is actively harmful to both SO and the devs who look up to you (like me).

The sources that you choose for your video (YouTube comments and tweets) aren't the most reliable sources of info. They can be written in 5 minutes, no one holds you accountable for what you said and you don't need any citations.

If you don't like SO then all you need to do is to pick up your keyboard and tweet out something like "elitist smartass assholes" and boom you just put the entire SO community effort into the bin.

I hope you take the time to understand how SO actually works and what its purpose is and if possible propagate that knowledge to new devs.

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    Re: 4) I think FK is mixing posts with comments and talking about the "Peer Pressure" badge.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 5:25
  • 16
    Also, I appreciate you actually watching the video and responding to the actual content rather than the somewhat misrepresentative synopsis of the points in the question.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 6:52
  • 1
    I guess you didn't feel like writing out "ForrestKnight" or "Youtuber"?.. :(
    – Scratte
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 6:58
  • 17
    I just keep reading FK as foreign key
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:19
  • 8
    Excellent analysis over the video! It's also not surprising that the words employed by this youtuber are also in the kind of comments that I usually flag here on SO. It's a toxic mindset.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:20
  • 2
    xD Ok I'll copy-paste this into my text editor and replace FK with the full form and paste it back here :p
    – Sabito
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:20
  • 5
    It was a meme but thank you for the trouble. And I second what Catija said. FWIW, I totally see where he and other users are coming from. Some of this frustration stems from not understanding SO's esoteric culture, but the frustration with the gatekeeping attitudes on SO and across the industry is valid. I wish I had the energy to put together a spreadsheet of all the comments ranging from misguided/ignorant/insensitive to gatekeeping over the years just to satiate those demanding evidence. I saw a comment elsewhere that advised new users to "read the room" - SO users ought to do the same.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:31
  • 2
    I don't really wanna write half a dozen 500-character comments on this, there is frustration on both sides, search sucks, yadda yadda yadda. I shouldn't be on SO right now, I've got work to do. But every time Stack Overflow comes up in viral online discourse is just heartbreaking to me. I don't have high hopes. I'm just here to do what good I can.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:36
  • 3
    Yep. I have studying to do but I choose to still write this because 1) I care about SO. 2) I like that channel. It took me around 4 hours total. While I agree that SO is not all unicorns and rainbows and can be very very hard for newcomers, I just didn't like the fact that the video titled "Stack Overflow is full of idiots." has 11k likes, and nowhere in the video is all the good things about this site discussed. I have also seen such comments before but that is because I used to hang around Queen a lot.
    – Sabito
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:48
  • 1
    Yeah, I'm not familiar with the channel, I'm sure he's a decent person but mostly I just take exception to the baity title. I'd even give the coarse language in the video a pass. Mostly because I've ranted about the site myself in coarse language behind closed doors so I know how it feels. This industry sucks.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 7:59
  • 11
    @Catija I tried watching the video... I promise I did :p, I just have, well, more important things to do than listen to yet another rant about SO by another user who simply has a lack of understanding of the site... Commented May 10, 2021 at 8:23
  • I didn't bother watching the vid. I could guess the content and, TBH, it wasn't worth the effort of clicking to it. Commented May 10, 2021 at 14:53
  • 5
    Bit of a side point: The entire internet is toxic. On reddit, there are more downvotes than on Stack Overflow. And I tried commenting on that youtube video but it kept getting deleted! So I have no idea what the hell people are talking about because Stack Overflow is a site like any other. if you can't handle it, the internet is not for you.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 11, 2021 at 18:43
23
  1. A poster wanted better understanding of a topic but the answerer told him to do more research.
    ...

You may know how to use the search bar but does Tim the newbie know?

Well,

they should

. There's a significant amount of guidance and support articles available, and made prominent to them, before they even see the Ask Question button.

  • The tour, they need to scroll to the end, when joining the site
  • The invitation to read further at the help center
  • The question wizard, guiding them through writing a new question

What else would you like to propose, to nanny them even more?

Even if we have to admit, that SO's search engine isn't necessarily working as the best option to search Stack Overflow, it seems most new users came from other search sites, to ask here.

As @Nick mentioned in their comment

They have an entire question they could populate with information they've discovered and why it doesn't answer their question


  1. people go to ask and are downvoted and forced to delete their questions seeking opinions how things are done.

It's made pretty clear in the above mentioned help articles, that and why we don't accept questions asking for recommendations or opinions. If a question is closed the OP is supplied with links to that information. So at least the 2nd time they try to ask such, they should know better.

  1. Responders tell posters, their stupid and are ugly to them.

That will be usually handled quite quickly by the community, through flagging such comments as either "rude or abusive", or "unfriendly or unkind". If there are enough such flags, such comments would be even deleted automatically, without intervention of any site moderator needed.
If a user continues to comment on posts that way, they'll be banned from the site for a while.

I believe that's already done enough, to prevent that kind of behavior. If you have even better proposals (note we even run bots to detect rudeness and foul language in comments), we're all eager to hear them.

8
  • 7
    "Well, they should" yeah, it's a search bar, they probably used one like the one on Google to get to stack in the first place :sigh: Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:23
  • @Nick did you ask the person how deep they done their research. I bet you,you dont. Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:42
  • 16
    @BenMadison Why should I? They have an entire question they could populate with information they've discovered and why it doesn't answer their question Commented May 9, 2021 at 21:45
  • 7
    It's a pointless waste of typing effort. Every time I have asked 'what search strings did you try', I got the response of [user never replies and goes dead]. Commented May 9, 2021 at 22:48
  • 7
    @MartinJames In gross, I stopped doing so. I am downvoting, close voting, or even better dupe hammering for the closest guess (such OP is forced to explain why the duplicate doesn't apply for them). I only had bad experience with commenting, "welcoming" and friendly advice. Thus I stopped doing that at all. Commented May 9, 2021 at 22:52
  • 8
    @BenMadison "I've searched everything and got no answer" <--- actual responses I've seen. If there is a response, at all. Very, very rarely do posters actually post relevant research. Even then we shouldn't be asking for it.
    – VLAZ
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 5:29
  • 4
    @VLAZ - yes, I lost count of how many times I edited this "research" out of questions. For some reason, people think that the phrase that pragmatically adds literally no useful info should suffice. It is even insulting in a way - "you wanted me to show research? I said that I searched for hours, are you happy?"
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 14:49
  • 1
    @Oleg I always see those people in my imagination, how they type in full sentences in a search engine like literally "How do I make an array with 10 elements", and how they get deperate on their bad search results :-D Commented May 10, 2021 at 18:24
20

I think a lot of answers already covered what I would say, but let me add this.

The "do more research" or "just google it" thing should end

We don't allow "just google it" comments or answers. In fact, just mentioning "Google" in a comment will often get you flagged by the system.

maybe this is their research, and they are at a dead end

This is where people miss the boat. Especially the "SO is a mean place". For a lot of folks SO is both the start and the end of any research. Seriously, when you do any kind of reviewing long enough you see the other end here. Maybe this question looked like:

How to use microservices? I am a beginner.

I think we all agree that kind of question has no place here. That's not even research. They want you to scour the Internet and spoon feed them. This is where the "Google that" sentiment comes from. I'm not saying it's right, but it's easier to criticize the curators who get it wrong (and not provide any details) than to specifically mention where things went wrong and do better next time. Do you think ForrestKnight ever sees the dozens of questions in this range? Probably not. Few people who levy these criticisms ever do. Does he think Stack Overflow would be a better place with little or no curation?

I rather liked this YouTube rebuttal from Cody Engel. Not only on-point, but he explains how to use Stack Overflow.

If people are being rude, please flag it. We can and do take them seriously (and we have warned and suspended habitual offenders). But don't paint everyone with this large brush please.

0
18

We don't call people ugly or stupid. ForrestKnight has called everyone on the site an idiot. If you are trying to criticize someone then calling them an idiot is not a good start.

Off-topic questions are off-topic

No matter how it makes the poster feel, we do not accept off-topic questions or questions asking for opinions. This is clearly stated in the help section. We expect every user to read and familiarize themselves with how the site works before posting anything. If you are not going to read the help section before posting your first question then you are in for a bad time.

We are not a help desk!

Stack Overflow does not offer 1-on-1 help or personal guidance. Questions asking "please help" are often terrible questions with no value for anyone else. If you come here expecting that, then you will be disappointed.

Stack Overflow helped developers millions of times

The goal is to create a repository of useful questions and answers. People who then face the same or similar problem can Google their question and land on a page with useful answers. Stack Overflow is helping me almost every day despite me asking questions very rarely. That's how we help developers. Most of the popular problems have a solution on this site already. All you need to do is Google the error message or problem description.

If you still decide to ask a question without researching it first, then we will help you out and close the question with the appropriate solution. This is a good thing for you, but if you feel that other solutions don't solve your problem then you need to explain clearly what you have tried and why it didn't work.

Downvotes are not a punishment

Voting is used to rank the content so that people can find the right answers more easily. We have to rate the content otherwise Google would suggest meaningless results.

The same applies to deleting unhelpful questions. If we as experts decide that your question is unlikely to help anyone else because it is unclear or there's a better one already on the site, then we will delete it. We are not mean to you, we are just making sure that future developers don't get lost in the sea of questions and are guided towards the one that has the best solutions.

We're not forcing anyone to delete their questions. We hope that they will improve them instead. This is why we close them with the information on how to do this. Of course, some questions are unsalvagable from the start, which is why you must read what is allowed here before posting.

Understand Stack Overflow and it will help you as a developer

Don't come here to look for opinions. Don't come here expecting personal help. Don't ask a new question before trying all the solution you can find online. Read the help section and make sure that your question has value for other people.

Asking questions is difficult, especially good ones that don't receive downvotes and remain visible. Good news! You don't have to ask a question to receive help from Stack Overflow. You can read existing answers which are very likely to solve your problem.

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  • 13
    I always find it ironic when people like Forrest call out SO for being toxic, but do so in a way that's toxic, or at least would've been enough to get them banned (or at least warned if the moderator response is early enough) under SO's code of conduct if this took place on SO. Commented May 10, 2021 at 13:34
  • 12
    People come to Stack Overflow (& other sites on the network) with misguided expectations, and then react as if it's our fault that those expectations are wrong. I like pancakes, but I don't go around criticizing the network because you can't order a stack of pancakes here. ;)
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 13:44
  • Re "All you need to do is Google the error message or problem description.": Most search results are poor. For some reason, it is mostly low-scored questions, with one or two insufficient answers. And no indication of where the canonical question is. Eventually the right question will be found among the 21,981,810 questions, but it is very inefficient to use Stack Overflow as a research tool. Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 4:42
18

We tell the criticasters: The system works.

  • A poster wanted a better understanding of a topic but the answerer told him to do more research.

Yes, that is fair advice when a broad question is asked. I assume the answerer covered his bases by opening that he wouldn't cover all aspects of a topic. They scratch the thin top layer based on the few bits and pieces given as context. You want after all answer a question, not write a blog post, a book, or a youtube video script.

  • People come to ask and are downvoted and forced to delete their questions that seek opinions on how things are done.

They are not always forced to delete their question. Either the system does that for them or if the question is way off what is considered on-topic or something Googlers will land on then the system is helped by delete votes from trusted users.

Worth noting that the scope of Stack Overflow rules out many topics that are not practical coding problems. It is often overlooked that we have some awesome communities in the SE network, one being Software Engineering (formerly known as Programmers) where the architecture/whiteboard type of questions can find a home. Still within reason. In that sense SO is not Walmart, not everything for your daily programming need is on offer.

  • Responders tell posters that they are stupid and ugly.

Yeah, I have seen some pretty ugly avatars out there. Some are even blurry. Get some focus, will you!. Infuriating.

If users are called things: Flag it. Do not make a video about it, do not Tweet about it. You have the tools to make this an awesome place. Use the tools.

Casual visitors mistake SO for a forum or a site where they get one-on-one help. That might be a side-effect of asking here and receiving an answer but it is not the main goal. Having content that is valuable for visitors to come is where we aim for. That is sometimes in conflict with personal needs or expectations.

It does make awesome YT content.

12

I had the audacity to get about a minute into the video. Really? Complaints about calls for lack of research? That's super basic. (You know, probably shouldn't have been part of an answer, but if you think it's RA, flag it) It's clear that this person does not have a good understanding of how Stack Overflow works. As someone who has worked hard to understand and contribute meaningfully to this site, this knee-jerk reaction is a slap in the face. Just because someone is offended does not make them right.

Could the site do a better job of introducing new members to its mechanisms? Yes, it's the number one problem we have. Do I believe that it will be fixed any time soon? Nope.

So, in short, ignore this YouTube bait. I would in fact be very saddened to see the company respond to this video officially. It would be yet more evidence that they are more influenced by the petty whims of the blogosphere than the voices of the community that works hard to make the site a better place.

4
  • 2
    "they are more influenced by the petty whims" - sadly, but they probably are. Stakeholders most likely do not participate on SO or derive value from it. Thus, when a viral Twitter/Facebook post happens, SE is happy to jump over the hoops. This is an inherent problem with profit-driven companies owning community-driven properties - we all combined will never be as important as a single tweet.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 14:10
  • 1
    Maybe we should do a reaction video. I hear those are pretty popular.
    – rene
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 14:31
  • 1
    @rene there already are at least two :)
    – Gimby
    Commented May 10, 2021 at 14:46
  • 3
    He accused stack of being toxic, but he's censoring comments which speak in favor of stack overflow in his comments section.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 11, 2021 at 18:45

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