OK. I'll start by saying a few things:
- This is my response and not SO's official response or anything like that...
- I have watched Forrest Knight's videos before and I like most of them. He seems like a good person.
- I remember watching this video and being rather disappointed by it. I am one of those 235 dislikers on his video.
- I have absolutely no knowledge about microservices.
- "Here is a summary of their criticism" - that is not a good summary. Nowhere in his video did he say "Responders tell posters that they are stupid and ugly.". So I am going to ignore this summary and quote the source directly. All the following quotes are from his video (unless stated otherwise).
- Because I can't see any of the posts/comments mentioned in the video, I'll give Forrest the complete benefit of the doubt.
1.
Video title:
Stack Overflow is full of idiots.
No, it is not.
2.
0:19 to 0:55
Last week I was doing some research about microservices trying to see if it was a good fit for my app and I came across a question where someone was just trying to get a better understanding of microservices. And one person had the audacity to start off their answer with you should do more research about microservices! - That is what he is doing! Exactly as a community member said on my Twitter post: "god forbid that he integrates some human interaction into his research process". He is trying to learn more about microservices, if I am studying something it would be very nice for me to ask somebody else.
... that is exactly what this person was asking on Stack Overflow - to get a better understanding of microservices. Why do you have to answer like that - "you should research about microservices yourself" - doesn't make any sense to me
Ok. So what I understand from this is that Forrest stumbled upon a question by some other user and another user had started their answer with "You should do some research".
Giving Forrest the full benefit of the doubt, I'll say these things:
- Maybe the answerer was in the wrong and the OP did do enough research.
- Not sure why the OP of the question didn't choose to include said research in their question.
- If Forrest can provide the link to said question then its deletion could be discussed on Meta and further clarification could be given.
- I'll leave this here because without the contents of that post I can't comment further.
3.
1:44 to 2:57
... this isn't an isolated event - I see all the time someone asks a question on Stack Overflow just to get absolutely destroyed and downvoted into the ground and forced to remove their question. And not only are they forced to remove their question - this has happened to me in the past, I remember asking a question trying to get an understanding of how other people went about starting their Java application. Cause I know there are some people who start very base model VP, they have a couple variables in a single class. Other people, I feel like, they like to do: "Ok I need all of these variable, I need all of these classes, I need all of these functions" and then later they go back in start assigning values to the variables and start filling out the functions and - I want to get better at understand how people did this cause I like to learn. This is many years ago, so obviously Stack Overflow hasn't changed in the past 5 years/6 years/7 years? Cause it was probably 7 years ago now, I was downvoted into the ground, people said you should read, you should just pick up a Java book if you don't know how to start an application yourself. ** shocked expression **. I am asking you how you do it. Why is everyone downvoting me? I don't understand why people have to be such assholes about it
Here Forrest is recollecting his past experiences at SO. He mentions a question he asked some 7 years ago. He also mentions that he didn't understand why he was being downvoted and calls the downvoters "assholes".
From what I understand, the question is very open-ended, aka needs focus (and is IMO probably opinion-based too). Hence the downvotes. I am pretty confident that the questions would have been closed and relevant links on how to improve the question were provided but Forrest chose not to improve it. Again, it would be better if he could provide a link to said question.
Also, note that Forrest took downvotes personally and doesn't understand what they signify.
Ok, let's see what else he has to say.
4.
3:04 to 3:33
... I don't know why you have to act like that when I am just trying to learn and not only that but Stack Overflow encourages you to give in those donwvotes, to these gatekeepers pressuring you to remove your comment by rewarding you for removing your comment. I don't know if it is still like that but 7 years ago, when I removed that comment because I was downvoted into the ground just trying to figure out how they started off their job application - I got my very first Stack Overflow reward. How stupid is that?
Now I have no idea what Forrest is describing here. I don't think that such a feature exists anymore. I have been on this site for almost 2 years and I haven't seen this. If such a feature existed 7 years ago then I have no knowledge about it. Maybe older community members can shed some light on it.
Thanks to Andrew for shedding some light on what they meant:
- I think Forrest is mixing posts with comments (since comments can't be downvoted anyway) and talking about the "Peer Pressure" badge.
5.
3:35 to 4:36
And not only that but take a look at this.
** shows youtube comments under the new youtube discussions feature. Forrest mentions that he has asked his followers to leave comments about their experience at SO **
... The one I found about microservices? Gone! probably deleted. And rewarded for by Stack Overflow.
** Picks a comment and reads it **
crazy, hell place for serious and professional development - such a toxic environment. Sometimes you got better luck asking in subreddits of technologies you are working on.
Fact! they reward you for removing it, but I already talked about that.
** Picks another comment **
Same exact experience as me.
First time I posted a question I was met with the same BS I ended up deleting my question because I felt so bad. Luckily, I am still in school so I could ask my professor for help.
** Picks another comment **
That is my biggest pet peeve, every dev is still learning something or another, just be humble and help if you can. If you can't keep your opinion to yourself.
Ok starting with the first comment, I agree that SO is not for everyone and not all programming-related questions are on-topic. Subreddits and discord groups might be better suited for such discussion. Or you can go to the Chat for more open-ended/opinion-based/off-topic questions.
Second comment: Again, I agree, some questions such as homework questions might not be the best thing to ask on SO. Your professors can give you guided advice. SO is not for that. We are not a help desk.
Last comment: Yes, every dev is learning, true. "Just be humble and help" - They do! It is crazy how much people here want to help you. Seriously. Ask a good question and see for yourself. Help us help you first though.
6.
4:50 to 5:05
** repeats himself (about that microservices part). I am ignoring that **
... don't come in here and be an asshole, don't be a smartass, don't - just keep scrolling. Don't answer anything or help them in a kind way, link to the documentation and say I just think very valuable for new developers if you haven't already looked at this...
Ok, look. I'll get this straight. SO is not a help desk. I know it is weird to hear at first (it was for me) but I'll quote something from Cody:
Remember that Stack Overflow is not a help desk. Our mission is not so much to help the asker, but rather to build up a library of high-quality Q&A on programming topics. Helping the asker is a nice side benefit, but our model is much more akin to Wikipedia
So you see, we can't just "keep scrolling". You don't fill up Wikipedia with crap and hope that people will find what they are looking for in all that. Hence the moderation, the downvotes, the closure, and the deletion. If you can't improve on your question such that it seems useful enough for other future visitors to the site, then your question needs to go.
7.
5:11 to 5:34
** Another comment **
I totally relate to this, and it’s not just stack overflow. When I first started to try and create my own web development projects, I thought it would be a good idea to join various programming discords to surround myself with like-minded people that could help answer questions from time to time. What I was met with, was condescending responses, people acting like I was stupid for not already knowing the answer, etc. I was shocked at how even in a channel meant for helping others, this was still the case. It deterred me from coming back and from then on I avoided asking questions on forums and stuck to reading and watching on my own.
I genuinely laughed that you choose to quote this comment. Just take a moment to appreciate the fact that their question wasn't received well anywhere! Maybe, just maybe, think that they might just be asking really really bad questions! Food for thought ;)
8.
5:36 to 6:38
** Finds tweets. The first tweet's contents have been repeated (ignoring it), the second tweet: **
I'll play devil's advocate here: The situation at stackoverflow is complex, its not as easy to spot right and wrong. Sometimes people are indeed lazy & we expect them to show what they've done already. Only then we can help them to improve it.
I disagree, or should I say that it is binary where it is right or wrong. If it is clear that the person asking has done no research of their own and is asking a question - it still doesn't give you the right to be an asshole. You still can be nice and say look I recommend that - put him in the right direction, like I said before, don't just be mean to the individual just because you feel like they haven't put in the work or just because they asked a question that you deemed stupid. You are not in the right to figure out whether or not a question is stupid.
Who is being an asshole here? Seriously who? The downvoters? The commenters that try to guide you to improve the question? "be nice and say look I recommend that" -- WE DO THAT. Seriously. People don't care. I can't emphasize this enough. You can create the best guide in the world on how to improve your question and link to it but what will you do if people just don't read it! You can take the horse to the water but you can't force it to drink.
Also, we follow the code of conduct here. So if you find any comment that you feel is too aggressive or rude or whatever then flag it.
9.
6:43 to end
I must say the worst part of it all is the simple fact when that happened to me, I questioned whether or not I wanted to be a programmer.
** Goes on along those lines. And ends on a motivational note. I am not typing all that here **
Don't take downvotes personally. Can't emphasize this enough either.
- Reputation doesn't show your expertise.
- Downvotes don't mean that we hate you.
- We are not assholes/gatekeepers/smartasses.
- We might not be the best site for your questions.
Ok. So what I have understood after all that is that Forrest doesn't understand what SO is about. Been there, done that. But the difference is that instead of choosing to understand why his question was downvoted/closed/deleted, he chose to make a video about it.
And Forrest, if you happen to read this somehow:
I regularly watch and enjoy your videos, but as I said before, I was very disappointed with this particular video. I am a young dev and SO is a gold mine of a resource. I have been helped here before and I am sure I will be helped here in the future. And I want people to understand and use this resource to its full extent and contribute to it as much as possible. Your video didn't do this. It just pushed forward the clickbaity narrative that we are elitists and gatekeepers and that people shouldn't use SO. This is actively harmful to both SO and the devs who look up to you (like me).
The sources that you choose for your video (YouTube comments and tweets) aren't the most reliable sources of info. They can be written in 5 minutes, no one holds you accountable for what you said and you don't need any citations.
If you don't like SO then all you need to do is to pick up your keyboard and tweet out something like "elitist smartass assholes" and boom you just put the entire SO community effort into the bin.
I hope you take the time to understand how SO actually works and what its purpose is and if possible propagate that knowledge to new devs.