43

Freshly past 500, I thought I'd check out my review privileges and promptly encountered this First Post: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/56365822/getting-error-not-all-arguments-converted-during-string-formatting (image for non-10k users).

How do we make suggestions for what may be perceived as accusatory advice about things a brand new user has only very probably done or not done?

I want to be clear; I feel that this is a bad post, with all that that entails for the overall quality of Stack Overflow. In short, the user misplaced a ) and then asked why they were getting an error. I started down the road of "constructive criticism," but I couldn't think of anything both certain and helpful to say. For example, a Google search on the error message led right to a ton of answers. Noting the line number in the error message and then squinting real hard at the line in question would have helped. (But, maybe they did that, and still came up dry?)

In short, it seems there's no advice that's going to improve this poster yet, except for linking to "How To Ask" and moving on, just because every other course of action seems fraught.

I searched here on Meta and didn't turn anything up.

(And then I return to the UI and see the help on the Skip option on the next post. I did feel something needed to happen, though.)

EDIT: Thanks all for your input. I was a little dismayed to see that someone commented on the OP to say call attention to this post, given that the OP is brand new. I just want to explicitly say that the OP's post isn't, you know, particularly bad for a brand new user, and I hope the OP still feels welcome. I guess I didn't consider the possibility that they'd be called out in the comments of their post, or clue into this discussion at all. An oversight, but I apologize. Being a noob in any community is hard enough without being made an example of.

OP, you're doing fine. Given the way SO is structured, there are systemic reasons to not expect anyone's very first post to be perfect. The bar is higher than a new contributor might reasonably expect.

To everyone else, thanks for your input so far. I'm kinda done with commenting in this Meta post. I've got about all I'm going to get out of it. If any higher-level mods want to lock it (or take other action), I'm totally cool with that. Thanks!

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  • 15
    Tell them that they missed the parent, the flag it as a typo.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:15
  • 8
    To be clear, @TinyGiant, flagging new users is for that it okay? I guess I'm having trouble with the balance between "protect SO" and "be welcoming." Can you point me to somewhere on Meta where this has been mostly resolved?
    – Mike
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:18
  • 38
    You are likely to see many more posts that are utterly useless when you review. There's no point in saying anything, just vote. Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:21
  • 42
    Flagging a question as a typo is not "not welcoming".
    – takendarkk
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:21
  • 28
    You don't flag users (very often) you flag posts. The problem in the post was caused by a typo which makes the question off-topic and therefore the question should be closed. Flagging for closure puts the post in the close vote queue where other users can vote on whether to close it or not.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:22
  • 14
    Welcoming isn't really related to curation. We have our standards, and need to maintain them. If a post doesn't meet our standards, then it doesn't belong, new user or no.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:28
  • 3
    I don't think it is terrible if you post the "How to ask" page - it is pretty good. However, if you post it on its own, it may not be clear what part of it you want them to take note of. So, you can post a helpful comment, but if they just failed to spot something trivial, then close as typo/unrepro on its own.
    – halfer
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 18:49
  • 16
    reviews queues are fundamentally broken and a waste of your time, if you do not already see why because you had to post this question, you will soon enough, you can never win regardless of what you do and this perfectly illustrations the chilling effect of this be welcoming at all costs culture.
    – user10677470
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 19:12
  • 6
    @Mike Review is just an abstraction of the main site intended to allow you to focus on specific types of moderation activities. It is not meant as some kind of addition to normal moderation activities. Of course it uses your flags, that is entirely the point. Unsalvageable is not the most useful term for the action that it actually represents. Generally unsalvageable means that the community is incapable of salvaging the question and any attempt at salvaging it must come from the author of the question. Though in this case the term is entirely accurate as it would be impossible to salvage.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 21:33
  • 26
    Don't worry about flag limits; they increase over time. Pretty soon you'll find yourself running out of patience well before you run out of flags.
    – manveti
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 21:52
  • 26
    I think I've sworn off reviewing already, @CraigMeier. It popped an audit at me and told me I wasn't paying attention. I was. I just disagreed. I got better things to do than be abused by a machine. SO can just live with what it gets.
    – Mike
    Commented May 29, 2019 at 21:55
  • 9
    @Mike exactly the same reason why I gave up on reviewing. Commented May 30, 2019 at 7:11
  • 2
    @Mike, I will routinely leave comments that explain to an OP why I'm flagging, voting to close, or what have you. Here, I'd say something like "You missed a closing parentheses. It's fine to post code to get a second set of eyes on it, but I'm voting to close this question since it was just a typo. You could delete it yourself if you want, now that you have your fix." Actually, a lot of times, I just leave a comment suggesting deleting instead of flagging or voting to close. Commented May 30, 2019 at 17:03
  • 2
    @Mike As has been mentioned, by raising flags that get marked helpful, you get more flags to raise. If you raise every single flag you are able to and they are all rapidly marked helpful (rapid handling of flags is the norm right now), you can get to the maximum of 100 flags/day in under 11 days. Note that "100 flags/day" is actually 100 flags on posts plus 100 flags on comments, so an actual total of 200 flags/day. So, don't sweat using up your flags. if you do use them, you'll rapidly get more to use.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 17:54
  • 20
    @Mike Regarding your review audit, isn't it fascinating that management wants you to be more welcoming to new users while taking a fairly pissed-off tone in review audits at mistakes made while volunteering your time for free? How about "be more welcoming to old timers and volunteers"
    – Paul
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 18:32

4 Answers 4

58

You don't give constructive criticism to new users when you're reviewing. I think that is not its most important goal (but some disagree).

In First Posts you're looking for pearls. Those need your attention, edits, votes, a comment for what to improve.

What remains is the sand and for that all the stock messages, close reasons and what not are enough for posts that probably didn't get much of attention of their authors in the first place.

We really appreciate your reviews and curation effort but trust me, you're going to last a lot longer in any queue if you focus on the stuff that has value for future visitors. You'll need to shovel lots of sand to find the pearls anyway. Skip is your friend

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  • 5
    The good news is there are even ways to burn sand. Commented May 29, 2019 at 21:24
  • 6
    You'll certainly "need to shovel lots of" something. Sand would be a bonus.
    – Turnip
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:14
  • Related: Optimizing For Pearls, Not Sand (by one of the founders) Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:24
  • 15
    "You don't give constructive criticism to new users when you're reviewing. That is not the goal." It's explicitly one of the primary goals of the first posts queue. It's not the goal of certain queues, like suggested edits, close/reopen, triage, etc. It's also not the only goal of first posts, but it's one of the important ones. The whole idea of the queue was to both perform the moderation actions necessary on the post (flagging, closing, voting, etc.) but also give new users additional feedback (typically an explanatory comment) to help them acclimate to the site while doing so.
    – Servy
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:26
  • 9
    @Servy I beg to differ. I certainly don't agree that all posts in that queue need our love, specially if, as I understood from the question, you're not sure where to start given the state on the item under review. By all means leave a comment if you have advice that is not covered in the help or close reason. Beyond that I opt for meh.
    – rene
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:37
  • 6
    @rene You may certainly feel that it's not worth doing. You can't just say it's not a stated goal of the queue when it's a stated primary goal of the queue, just one that you apparently don't agree with or engage in.
    – Servy
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:38
  • 1
    @Servy fair enough.
    – rene
    Commented May 30, 2019 at 13:40
8

Logic experiment:

Given the question title "How do we give constructive criticism to new users who have only very probably mindlessly turned to Stack Overflow?"

and rephrase it as;

Do new users who have very probably mindlessly turned to Stack Overflow really care about anything but getting an answer with as little effort as possible care about constructive criticism that will require more effort?

Then re-evaluate the expected answers to your question. Would you have even asked it in that form?

The most effort you can expect from them is a reply in the comments to shut up and go away if you are not going to help. Which is what I 99% of the time when I tried to do exactly what you did. I took the eventually hint and stopped commenting and engaging with the site when it was made extremely clear that I was the problem and that I needed to figure out how to work with these people, implicitly and explicitly by the owners of SO in various blog, meta and private messages. Which was easy because I had stopped answering long before that.

So I had my account reset to force me not to be able to engage with the site.

4

You ask,

How do we make suggestions for what may be perceived as accusatory advice about things a brand new user has only very probably done or not done?

, where it seems to be things like searching Google or SO for the error message or studying the source line indicated by the error that you are considering as possible suggestions.

Most such things are already covered by the "How to ask" page, and if your objective is to avoid coming off as accusatory, then providing or linking to a non-personalized, canned response such as that is a reasonably good approach -- if your response is not personalized then it is hard for people to take it personally.

Of course, the OP could take offense at the response being impersonal, but in a case such as you present, that's a risk I would be willing to take. There are no signs that the OP has put much effort into researching or composing the question, and no amount of welcomingness makes me feel obligated to respond to small effort with large effort.

4
  • 1
    That's something I've taken to repeating often to users; "You get what you give. The more you invest into your question, the better the chance you'll get a good answer to help you." I think that's something that's been lost on the internet in general.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 31, 2019 at 13:57
  • 1
    @fbueckert - "You get what you give. The more you invest into your question, the better the chance you'll get a good answer to help you." is a waste of time, it will get flagged as abusive/unkind within seconds of you pressing the ENTER and will only waste your time at best and get you harassed by the OP on and off site at worst.
    – user10677470
    Commented May 31, 2019 at 15:28
  • 1
    If that counts as rude, @Jarrod, we might as well walk away, as we'll never win against the hordes. But so far, I've gotten decent traction with it, insofar as it hasn't been flagged.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 31, 2019 at 15:29
  • 2
    Be Nice policy was weaponized years ago to go against community standards moderation years ago. It has been recognized as much in other meta discussions and was reinforced and endorsed with the "we know because you told us" blog post.
    – user10677470
    Commented May 31, 2019 at 15:31
-3

A constructive answer (or comment, as noted by JL2210) which would at the same time tell OP that his question is not really fit for purpose could be like this:

Try to use the "divide and conquer" method to find the part of your code which causes the error. For example, you can start by deleting or commenting lines from the end towards the start of the code. When the error disappears you know that it was that line. Then continue removing expressions from that line until the error disappears again, and so on. Please be aware that this is really something you should do yourself; this site is not made so others run/debug your code. Feel free to post an answer yourself if you found the problem, so future people can find your question and a hint towards the reason why it happened.

In other words, you try to find what the actual problem is, and answer that one. In this case, the problem is not the missing ), but the fact that OP does not know a systematic method to attack syntax errors. Also, while it is friendly and helpful, it does not take the effort away from OP, hence doesn't fall into the trap of teaching him to repeat this kind of question (here or somewhere else).

Only you can decide if you wish to go to that effort. I would certainly (as a newbie) like such an indepth answer more than a bland cut&paste template. It will also be helpful for future readers who googled for that error message. In this particular example, of course, as has been stated, googling for the exact error messages turns up plenty of similar SO questions, and the solution ("forgot to close the string") is even visible in Google's short excerpts. So, yeah... for the rest of the world (except OP) there would be hardly any benefit.

Although I do admit that I posted on forums or Q&A sites without really bothering about reading the rules, and getting at least a cookie cutter answer pointing me in why my question/post was removed was better (and, ultimately, sufficient) than nothing at all, so we might just be overthinking this. Fortunately, the cookie cutter text OP got with his close gave him exactly the information I suggested above (and more...) by linking to a well written article on how to debug such errors. So in this case, SO's standard mechanism seems to work perfectly well.

4
  • Instead of having someone post an answer with this content (which would almost certainly be closed as "Not an answer"), I suggest instead recommending posting a comment. I will provide an example below.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Jun 1, 2019 at 21:28
  • Try to use the "divide and conquer" method to find the part of your code which causes the error. You can start by commenting lines from the end towards the start of the code. When the error disappears you know that it was that line. Then continue removing expressions from that line until the error disappears again, and so on. Please be aware that this is really something you should do yourself; this site is not made so others run/debug your code. Feel free to post an answer yourself if you found the problem, so future people can find your question and a hint towards the reason why it happened.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Jun 1, 2019 at 21:29
  • Wow, counting the downvotes - it seems like I have misunderstood this meta question "How do we give constructive criticism". @JL2210, I really think what I quoted would be an answer; it would be constructive (teaching the OP a way to solve his problem) while still informing in a non-offensive way that solving the actual code problem is out of scope (and in many cases impossible, as we usually do not have a complete environment to compile or then run another's source code). My quote is an example of how something like that can be done and could be fleshed out or shortened as necessary.
    – AnoE
    Commented Jun 3, 2019 at 8:51
  • For the many other downvoters (partly balanced by a few upvotes) - please leave a comment of what's wrong so I can try to improve the answer...
    – AnoE
    Commented Jun 3, 2019 at 8:52

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