Jay's post can be summarized like this: "People have told us we have a
problem with being welcoming.
I don't doubt that. I'm very willing to believe that a lot of people have mailed SO and written numerous meta posts saying that they feel unwelcome.
With no numbers and analysis, though, it's not possible to judge what percentage of users feel unwelcome and why.
Example: New user feels 'unwelcome': posts a complaining note to meta about it.
Experienced user is grossly insulted and abused: they don't post a meta note because they know it would be a duplicate.
We all need to work harder to make sure we don't behave in a way that
makes people feel unwelcome.
Sounds OK overall, but it's very difficult to work harder on problem 'A' without adversely affecting issues 'B', 'C' etc. They all tend to be interdependent to some extent.
Example: 'Take more care over comments to users with new accounts, be more nice'. Sounds good. I doubt that it will be effective for the following reasons:
Many users with new accounts see only 'I have not got my answer. I have downvotes. Someone commented [something, anything, doesn't matter], so it must be their fault that I did not get an answer. I feel unwelcomed and I'm going to complain'
The 'nicer' the comment, the longer it is likely to take to write it. Skilled and experienced software engineers are used to terse, succinct error-messages and are prone to write comments in a similar way. Turning on a 'niceness' switch, just for SO, is difficult when everything else they interact with at work is errors from machinery and tools, terse instructions from bosses and clients etc. The more time spent by volunteer contributors on writing comments to bad questions, in an, (often vain), attempt to get more info from the OP, means less time spent on answering good questions.
Or even shorter: "Let's try harder to make more people feel welcome.
How? Since SO will always have a set of problems, deciding which to address is imp... 'very difficult' without any numbers and analysis. Meta posts saying, essentially 'THERE IS A PROBLEM! STOP SAYING THERE IS NOT. WE MUST FIX IT NOW' are drawing a conclusion from some unknown number of complaints from an unknown number of users for unknown reasons.
Is there a problem with real/perceived 'unwelcomeness' driven by snarky comments to new account users?
Yes, but nobody has shown/demonstrated how big the problem is, or what might be done about it that would not be counter-productive.
Example: One set of users who often feel unwelcome is the set of volunteer user-moderators, or curators. They feel unwelcome, not because of any kind of illogical syllogism, or perceived hostility, but from actual grossly offensive and abusive comments from new account users who got a clarification request instead of the answer they wanted. I'm not copying/linking any examples here as I have another meta answer with a list of them. Curators tend not to comtinually post to meta about it because, being experienced on SO, they know such posts would be duplicates.
Should something more be done about such explict abuse? Don't know, because there are no numbers to decide whether to apply effort to the problem.
This seems pretty unobjectionable to me.
It can be objected to if it can be shown that measure X, while it might alleviate problem A, doesn't help with B and makes C and D much worse.
We have some people saying they don't feel welcome; that seems like an open-and-shut case.
I agree, undeniable. SO actually suspends and bans users, so not welcoming by design.
But instead we have several quite popular posts on Meta questioning the very premise that we even have a problem.
There is a problem, (in the set of problems facing SO). What is usually argued is how prevalent it is, whether it's worth assigning resources to, where they should come from, how much.
There's a weird disconnect here.
I don't find it weird:)
I truly don't believe most of us here want to make anyone feel unwelcome.
Well, I can sure directly argue that one, but it would mean dupe-posting examples of comments from people who I don't want to see on the site again.
If you meant 'excessively unwelcome', then sure. Just bear in mind that measure X will please A and adversely affect B and C.
But it's clear that some people here have strong feelings that StackOverflow might change for the worse.
Yes.
So I'm addressing my question to the objectors: What are you afraid of losing?
B, C, .........
This is not a rhetorical question, and it is not a leading question. I'm seeking to understand your point of view so I'm not arguing with a strawman. I want to understand the "steel man" version of your argument/worries/concerns.
Mostly covered above, IME.
From my point of view, it seems to me like we don't have anything to lose
Your POV, so you can clearly say that you have nothing to lose:) Extrapolating that to groups B, C etc is something I have trouble with.
and have much to gain by trying to help more people feel welcome to participate.
yes, it's back to those pesky numbers/evidence again..
But it is clear to me there are many in our community strongly disagree...with something. So this is my question. What worries you about this? I think it would be unfairly malining your point of view to say, "You don't believe in being welcoming!" I'm pretty sure that's not what you're objecting to.
I don't believe in being welcoming to everyone. I don't believe that is possible.
But I don't understand what you ARE objecting to. What do you fear is going to happen to our community if we embrace this idea?
'B and C' POV are pretty clearly covered by the other answers:)
If you want an example of a counter-productive action, consider a 'directive' from SO that says:
You must be nicer to new account holders. Take more care when writing
comments to ensure that perceptions of 'unwelcomeness' are reduced.
Possible reception: the skilled and experienced developers who volunteer the odd half-hour of free time to provide technical advice to other SO users read that as:
Your volunteer time is no longer to be spent wholly on accurate
technical answers. You must spend some of that time on analysing how
the recipients might perceive it, and ensure that, whatever you write,
it is clear that it is not meant as hostile. Your vast array of
technical knowledge should be reduced in priority and the weight on
social skills and empathy increased. Stop givng the appearance of
being an elite developer just because you actually are. Don't just
respond to the questions in a purely technical, engineering fashion,
just because you are an engineer'.
Possible result:
WTF is this? If the OP's don't want an accurate, direct, terse
technically-correct answer, why did they bother posting a question to
SO? Imma not going to have my volunteered time controlled by these
posters. Either they take my comments as I wish to put them, ie.
technically correct and as quick for me to write as I can, or I'll
just not bother commenting and the OPs can do without requests for
clarification, 'quick answers' that don't give me any rep, hints etc.
OK, fine, I'm going to follow the letter of the directive. No more
comments at all on new accounts. The OP's will lose out on technical
help, but they won't feel as 'unwelcomed'. That's what they seem to
be asking for, so that's what they can have. Saves me wasting time on
asking for clarifications and edits that are often ignored or slagged
off anyway. I'll spend my comment time on '>50' questions and
answering good ones. Why are the new users committing suicide like
this?
...backfire.