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Several questions here on Meta these last few days have raised objections to Jay Hanlon's blog post, Stack Overflow Isn't Very Welcoming. It's Time for That To Change.

Jay's post can be summarized like this: "People have told us we have a problem with being welcoming. We all need to work harder to make sure we don't behave in a way that makes people feel unwelcome." Or even shorter: "Let's try harder to make more people feel welcome."

This seems pretty unobjectionable to me. We have some people saying they don't feel welcome; that seems like an open-and-shut case. But instead we have several quite popular posts on Meta questioning the very premise that we even have a problem. There's a weird disconnect here. I truly don't believe most of us here want to make anyone feel unwelcome. But it's clear that some people here have strong feelings that Stack Overflow might change for the worse.

So I'm addressing my question to the objectors: What are you afraid of losing?

This is not a rhetorical question, and it is not a leading question. I'm seeking to understand your point of view so I'm not arguing with a straw man. I want to understand the "steel man" version of your argument/worries/concerns.

From my point of view, it seems to me like we don't have anything to lose and have much to gain by trying to help more people feel welcome to participate. But it is clear to me there are many in our community strongly disagree...with something. So this is my question. What worries you about this? I think it would be unfairly maligning your point of view to say, "You don't believe in being welcoming!" I'm pretty sure that's not what you're objecting to. But I don't understand what you ARE objecting to. What do you fear is going to happen to our community if we embrace this idea?

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    In short: the 'objectors' consider that people are interpreting quality control as unkindness, and that therefore making 'more kind noises' is not going to solve the problem. There is no 'nice' way to say no to a two-year-old.
    – Benjol
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 6:49
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    It is not the first time SO management did something drastic like this. Lots to lose: one, two. Commented May 3, 2018 at 8:43
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    This is so over-simplified, lacks any recognition of the actual problems people have been discussing re the blog post, accuses them of being afraid... This is some prime bait here.
    – user1228
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:38
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    Given that you saw a bunch of posts of people explaining why they're concerned over the blog post, why are you asking people why they're concerned over the blog post. Just read the posts that you saw where people expressed what their concerns with it were.
    – Servy
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:04
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    @Will This is not bait. I considered responding individually to one or more of the posts Servy noted, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized I didn't think all the arguments made sense to me. I felt like there is something I am missing; some sort of assumption people are making that isn't clicking with me. And I recognize the intensity of the opinions in those questions, and thought it would be wise to ask and try to understand where those posters are coming from before starting to respond. The responses so far have been helpful for me. Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:35
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    @Servy See above. I read the posts, but some of the points being made seem only tenuously connected to the issue at hand. Some seemed disingenuous to me. But instead of assuming bad faith, I decided to take the intensity of the opinions as evidence of good faith. So I'm taking a step back, and attempting to engage with everyone to better understand where you all are coming from before I start responding with poor assumptions of my own. Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:41
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    @CharlieKilian So what about those posts didn't you understand? There are dozens of posts all with hundreds of arguments on the topic. Do you not understand any of them, do you not understand certain ones? There are lots of people explaining lots of things in lots of different ways. If there is a particular statement that you don't understand, you'd be better off asking the person that made it.
    – Servy
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:45
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    @Will Also, I would appreciate if you could post an answer that explains where my summary is over-simplified. I attempted a fair summary, but being only a summary, you very well might be correct that it is too simple. It would be helpful to me for you to explain where and why my simplifications are incorrect and elides important nuances. Especially if it's different from what other answers here have already said. Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:45
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    @Servy Certainly the points should be addressed individually. But as you note, there are many of them with a wide range of arguments, and based on upvotes, all of them appear to be popular. Since the arguments seem pretty different to me (i.e., the "newbies" problem vs. whether women or PoC feel welcome vs. questions about how we know we have a problem vs. questions about data quality), but all seem equally popular, it made me think I was missing a common thread. The only commonality I could identify was a strong fear that SO might change for the worse. The answers so far have been helpful. Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:19
  • @Servy Not that there can't be overlap in concerns, of course. But that is also why I asked this question: I'm trying to figure out how much overlap there is. It seemed like a good idea to just ask. Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:21
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    It's a general issue with any complex environment. If you see a problem in front of you, that does not mean that it's a good idea to solve it. Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:36
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    Normally when someone asks me to fix my code, I ask "What's broken?". If the answer is "Well I feel it doesn't work like it should, and you have nothing to lose by just changing it", I would be very, very annoyed.
    – Clay07g
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 18:32
  • @Clay07g Right, but this situation is more like when someone points out something that doesn't work very well and has been kluged together to make it work okay, and now we're all discussing whether it is time to rewrite the kludge to make it a proper fix. Commented May 3, 2018 at 18:40

5 Answers 5

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What are you afraid of losing?

Quality control, and thereby experts. If more bad questions come in and don't get downvoted and closed, and more bad answers don't get downvoted and deleted, experts will be chased away.

we don't have anything to lose and have much to gain by trying to help more people feel welcome to participate

Why would you have to feel welcome in order to participate? I've joined various online messaging boards in my time on the Internet, and I've never felt welcome in the sense that I could barge in and post in any way I'd like.

Every community has their incrowd, their written and unwritten rules, their status quo. If you want to blend in, you'd better lurk for a while until you decide to participate. That's how real life works, and that's how online communication works as well.

If a newcomer thinks they have the answer to a question, they're free to post one. If it's a good one, it'll even be upvoted.

I really don't see in that blog post, nor in any discussion thereafter, what would be expected for us to change, and that is why people are being so defensive. They're afraid that they'll have to lower the standards even more so everyone should "feel welcome", even if they lack basic English skills or can't program their way out of a paper bag and expect us to do their homework.

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    Why would you have to feel welcome in order to participate? Why would you want to participate somewhere you don't feel welcome? Feeling unwelcome sucks. Feeling welcome isn't being allowed to do whatever you want (unless the user has a massive sense of self-entitlement, which is true for some), it's about clear, fair, reasonable and well-communicated rules that are consistently and gently but firmly enforced. There are many parts of that where Stack Overflow could improve. Commented May 3, 2018 at 10:55
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    In the very next sentence I describe a particular interpretation of "feeling welcome", namely "in the sense that I could barge in and post in any way I'd like". Apparently when someone doesn't feel welcome, we can stop analyzing what's meant by that, according to the blog, and we need to change everything until everyone feels welcome to do what they want - or at least that's how that claim is being interpreted. I don't agree with that. I want an analysis of what "feeling welcome" means and specific changes to be proposed.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:24
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    From its inception, there was always a very strong desire to not make SO a social site. The kind of place where people needed to feel welcome. But instead pursue the Google model, if you use crappy keywords in your query then you get crappy results. Of course you do, nobody thinks that Google is "unwelcoming" when it spits out garbage. But there is forever a push to turn it into Facebook, that it came from SO management is particularly disappointing. They have no idea how to be as successful as Google. We deserve better management. Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:42
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    I might agree that we should try to understand exactly why users don't feel welcome, but I see plenty of things on the site (1) that I would hate to have directed at me, (2) that might've led to a positive outcome had it been presented better (again based on how I imagine I would've responded) and where a better presentation (3) would've been easy and (4) wouldn't hurt quality. Take, for example, a rude comment - they don't help and people generally respond badly to them. Such things seem worth addressing even if they aren't the biggest factors of users not feeling welcome. Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:48
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    To be fair, paper bags' interfaces are notoriously hard to work with..... But besides that 100% with you
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:49
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    @Dukeling if this is all about nasty comments, then I'm all for weeding those out.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:50
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    @HansPassant Google search is a machine (loosely speaking). Stack Overflow consists of people. There are some fundamental differences there. If you have a concrete idea that addresses the biggest problems with "the Google model" with people (like the limited resources, motivation and quality control), I'd be curious to hear that. Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:04
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    How many people type in something nasty when a Google query doesn't give them what they want? Nobody really knows, nobody sees it. Why do we have to see the vitriol that clumsy SO users spit out? SO employees apparently think that $100K is not enough compensation to deal with it. Fine, don't deal with it, nothing that meta can't do better anyway. Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:14
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    @Dukeling These kinds of comments. Sadly, they're not at all rare. What we can do about them, I wish I knew; users without any investment in the site have no incentive to curb their behaviour, because they're not sticking around.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:48
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    @fbueckert .or worse , they are sticking around, but using burner accounts for each bad question, (and, if denied an answer, each abusive comment). Commented May 3, 2018 at 17:52
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    I have friends who don’t participate because they had a bad experience with the community when they were still learning how to program. They are now great programmers, and understand SO as a platform better, but still don’t participate because of the “bad, elitist community”. If you’re worried about losing experts, you should be extremely worried about pushing away new users before they become experts, because they’re probably not coming back.
    – RyNo
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 18:42
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    @RyNo please supply links to your friends' questions that were treated badly. Commented May 3, 2018 at 18:59
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    @MartinJames Why do you even need to see them? Do you doubt this ever happens? Surely in a site as big as SO, there are plenty of examples to choose from. Indeed, isn't that your whole point in the answer below? In essence you said, "Sure this happens, but how often? We need data to know how big a problem it really represents." Okay, I understand that. But why do you turn around and ask for these anecdotes? It seems to undermine your point from before. This is an example of the disconnect I was talking about. I feel like I'm missing something important about your objection. Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:32
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    @MartinJames I'm guessing they were bad questions (by Stack Overflow standards), but that doesn't justify rude comments, which I'm sure you can find plenty of recent examples of without looking far. Plenty of people wouldn't want to be part of a community they view as toxic or elitist, even if they can manage to avoid being treated badly. Commented May 4, 2018 at 6:32
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    @Dukeling 'doesn't justify rude comments' agreed. What I have an issue with is when OP's interpret terse and direct and honest comments from skilled and experienced developers, who are donating a litle free time, as 'rude'. Their everyday job invoves terse, direct and honest interactions with soulless machinery and tools with no compassion, and it's understandable that they would treat OP's in a similar fashion. Not defending outright hostility and abuse, but OP's should understand that posting a queston to a skilled developer for handling will get it handled by a skilled developer:) Commented May 4, 2018 at 7:05
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Most of the objections are because the blog post seems to go against many of the core values that made the site a success.

Context

Stack Overflow was originally created with the goal of "collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world." The goal of the site is not to be a "programming help", but rather to "build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming," according to the tour. This means that our primary goal is not necessarily to help just the asker of a question, but also the thousands of future Googlers with the same problem. The purpose of Stack Overflow is to build a library of useful information, and a "debug-my-code-for-me" question is not very useful.

In order to distinguish between useful and not-useful content, we have moderation tools such as upvotes, downvotes and close votes. Voting tells future answerers and Googlers whether that question is useful enough for them to look at. The reason the site is able to withstand a flood of low-quality questions is because we can quickly isolate the signal from the noise.

The problem

Unfortunately, there are a couple of problems, and Curation and cynicism: Or why Stack Overflow sometimes doesn't seem welcoming explains then excellently. One problem is snarky comments; some users get annoyed and post a harsh comment after tiring of seeing the endless homework dumps. This is a legitimate problem that we can deal with; rude comments should be flagged as "rude or abusive," and there have been discussions on Meta proposing solutions to the problem of snarky comments.

Another more fundamental problem is that moderation often comes across as "hostile" to new users. Downvotes are nothing more than a judge of usefulness of content, but unfortunately no one likes to see their question downvoted, and many new users take it personally, sometimes even getting very angry. Disgruntled users sometimes take their opinions to other sites on the Internet and vent about how "elitist" we are for deleting their question, even though they didn't follow the rules in the first place.

The blog post

The reason for much of the objection to the blog post is that it seems to go against much of what I just wrote. As I mentioned in chat:

I'm a bit discouraged by the attitude toward moderation in the blog post. Moderation on SO often feels like a losing battle against the flood of low-quality questions, and Jay's statement that our moderation efforts "make [him] sad" is honestly really frustrating.

There are problems we can work to solve, like snarky comments, but downvoting duplicate questions is not a problem; it's the design of the site. The blog post really feels like it's optimizing for sand while disparaging the hours of time put in by volunteers.

Most of the points in the blog post I agree with, and I'm extremely thankful that the blog post promises "better tools and queues to help power users trying to keep quality high." However, many of the statements in the blog post appear to take the side of disgruntled new users who didn't read the rules, going against those who volunteer to make the site useful. Here's a few (cherry-picked) statements:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place [...]

Too often, someone comes here to ask a question, only to be told that they did it wrong.

It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate.

And little makes me sadder than comments on answers saying, “Don’t answer questions like this – it encourages them.” [...] But it’s totally cool to answer questions without giving a grilled poop sandwich about exactly what’s allowed. It’s fine to volunteer in one way without being expected to read and enforce every rule and meta discussion since forever.

Because of these statements, my first reaction to the blog post was "oh no, the company no longer supports enforcing quality standards." However, I'm not convinced this is the intent of the blog post. It's hard to figure out what the post is trying to say, and the way some points are worded causes them to become distorted or confusing. For example:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place [...]

At first glance, this reads strongly as "Stack Overflow is a hostile and elitist place." But upon looking closer, is it saying SO is hostile, or that it is percieved as hostile?

I think the latter was the intention, and Jon Ericson has stated that the problem described in the blog post is not moderation actions, but rather new users' perception of those actions. Unfortunately, the blog post doesn't read that way, and comes across as disparaging to those of us who work to enforce the site's standards. (Quite frankly, I personally am not convinced the company agrees internally on the message they're trying to send; see this chat message and this meta post.)

The blog post's comments about minorities is also a big discussion point on Meta, but I have decided not to partake in that discussion. If you're interested, browse around Meta for posts such as Is Stack Overflow really racist/sexist?

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    Movie quote time. "The first time that someone calls you a horse you punch them on the nose. The second time someone calls you a horse you call them a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps its time to start shopping for a saddle." Stack Overflow has been called a hostile and elitist place a little bit more often than three times by now... Whether its perceived unfriendliness or not is not really the issue anymore. Its time to start taking notice that this continues to happen and do something about it.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:33
  • @Gimby Sure; I agree we need to address the perceived unwelcomingness. I don’t want to do so by compromising quality, which is what this blog post seems to advocate (at least on first glance). IMO we need to look into ways to make moderation actions feel less “hostile” without making them less effective.
    – NobodyNada
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:45
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    @Gimby 'Stack Overflow has been called a hostile and elitist place a little bit more often than three times by now' no, only once. All the others were duplicates. If you are suggesting that SO curators post a link to all grossly bad, insulting questions, and each grossly abusive OP comment, to meta then, well, I guess some of the user-mods might go for that. Commented May 3, 2018 at 17:59
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    @MartinJames What do you mean it has only been called a hostile and elitist place once? Honestly asking. Do you mean, only once by employees of SO? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. Can you clarify? Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:39
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    perhaps you could note that it makes you sad when Jay posts that it makes him sad when duplicates are downvoted. As we all know, feelings can't be wrong! Commented May 4, 2018 at 22:15
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Here is an analogy - You open a nightclub (music, drinks, dancing), with a dress-code, stipulating no trainers (I guess that is sneakers in the US). That is how most of your customers want the place to be. There is a club down the read with no dress code, but it is very different from this club, and the regulars from your club appreciate the atmosphere and dress code that you have.

The club is a success, and you hire some doormen/women, and ask them to only let people wearing proper shoes in. You train them to be as polite as possible, treat everyone equally, but to consistently turn away anyone wearing trainers:

Sorry, those are our rules. I can't let you in with those trainers on - our policy is proper shoes only.

If the doorperson is ever impolite, and says

Trainers? You can *%&! right off!

then you remind them to be polite, and if necessary send them away for a retraining, and sack anyone who refuses to learn. You tell them to be firm but always polite.

The club is a success, people come and go, dance and have fun. But some feel it is not welcoming enough, having been turned away a couple of times at the door. Then you decide to be "more welcoming".

The doormen/women are confused. The dress code is apparently the same, and the requirement to be polite is still the same. What should they do?

  1. Let people in, even with the wrong footwear - this will annoy other customers, and they will leave.
  2. Say "Nice trainers, suit you well, it's great that you came and queued for our club, love your style. Still can't let you in, though" - this doesn't seem much of an improvement.

The doormen/women can't see how to be "more welcoming" while still upholding the dress-code, and reject the idea.

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    "...then you remind them to be polite, and if necessary send them away for a retraining, and sack anyone who refuses to learn." We don't actually do that in most cases, though. We just delete the comment and pretend it never happened. Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:33
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    @BilltheLizard: thanks for the clarification. I just assumed there would be some escalating consequences for unhelpful comments.
    – Fillet
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:45
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    @Fillet There are. Lots of people have been suspended for consistently posting inappropriate content in comments/posts.
    – Servy
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:08
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    I can attest to that:( Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:31
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Jay's post can be summarized like this: "People have told us we have a problem with being welcoming.

I don't doubt that. I'm very willing to believe that a lot of people have mailed SO and written numerous meta posts saying that they feel unwelcome.

With no numbers and analysis, though, it's not possible to judge what percentage of users feel unwelcome and why.

Example: New user feels 'unwelcome': posts a complaining note to meta about it.

Experienced user is grossly insulted and abused: they don't post a meta note because they know it would be a duplicate.

We all need to work harder to make sure we don't behave in a way that makes people feel unwelcome.

Sounds OK overall, but it's very difficult to work harder on problem 'A' without adversely affecting issues 'B', 'C' etc. They all tend to be interdependent to some extent.

Example: 'Take more care over comments to users with new accounts, be more nice'. Sounds good. I doubt that it will be effective for the following reasons:

Many users with new accounts see only 'I have not got my answer. I have downvotes. Someone commented [something, anything, doesn't matter], so it must be their fault that I did not get an answer. I feel unwelcomed and I'm going to complain'

The 'nicer' the comment, the longer it is likely to take to write it. Skilled and experienced software engineers are used to terse, succinct error-messages and are prone to write comments in a similar way. Turning on a 'niceness' switch, just for SO, is difficult when everything else they interact with at work is errors from machinery and tools, terse instructions from bosses and clients etc. The more time spent by volunteer contributors on writing comments to bad questions, in an, (often vain), attempt to get more info from the OP, means less time spent on answering good questions.

Or even shorter: "Let's try harder to make more people feel welcome.

How? Since SO will always have a set of problems, deciding which to address is imp... 'very difficult' without any numbers and analysis. Meta posts saying, essentially 'THERE IS A PROBLEM! STOP SAYING THERE IS NOT. WE MUST FIX IT NOW' are drawing a conclusion from some unknown number of complaints from an unknown number of users for unknown reasons.

Is there a problem with real/perceived 'unwelcomeness' driven by snarky comments to new account users?

Yes, but nobody has shown/demonstrated how big the problem is, or what might be done about it that would not be counter-productive.

Example: One set of users who often feel unwelcome is the set of volunteer user-moderators, or curators. They feel unwelcome, not because of any kind of illogical syllogism, or perceived hostility, but from actual grossly offensive and abusive comments from new account users who got a clarification request instead of the answer they wanted. I'm not copying/linking any examples here as I have another meta answer with a list of them. Curators tend not to comtinually post to meta about it because, being experienced on SO, they know such posts would be duplicates.

Should something more be done about such explict abuse? Don't know, because there are no numbers to decide whether to apply effort to the problem.

This seems pretty unobjectionable to me.

It can be objected to if it can be shown that measure X, while it might alleviate problem A, doesn't help with B and makes C and D much worse.

We have some people saying they don't feel welcome; that seems like an open-and-shut case.

I agree, undeniable. SO actually suspends and bans users, so not welcoming by design.

But instead we have several quite popular posts on Meta questioning the very premise that we even have a problem.

There is a problem, (in the set of problems facing SO). What is usually argued is how prevalent it is, whether it's worth assigning resources to, where they should come from, how much.

There's a weird disconnect here.

I don't find it weird:)

I truly don't believe most of us here want to make anyone feel unwelcome.

Well, I can sure directly argue that one, but it would mean dupe-posting examples of comments from people who I don't want to see on the site again.

If you meant 'excessively unwelcome', then sure. Just bear in mind that measure X will please A and adversely affect B and C.

But it's clear that some people here have strong feelings that StackOverflow might change for the worse.

Yes.

So I'm addressing my question to the objectors: What are you afraid of losing?

B, C, .........

This is not a rhetorical question, and it is not a leading question. I'm seeking to understand your point of view so I'm not arguing with a strawman. I want to understand the "steel man" version of your argument/worries/concerns.

Mostly covered above, IME.

From my point of view, it seems to me like we don't have anything to lose

Your POV, so you can clearly say that you have nothing to lose:) Extrapolating that to groups B, C etc is something I have trouble with.

and have much to gain by trying to help more people feel welcome to participate.

yes, it's back to those pesky numbers/evidence again..

But it is clear to me there are many in our community strongly disagree...with something. So this is my question. What worries you about this? I think it would be unfairly malining your point of view to say, "You don't believe in being welcoming!" I'm pretty sure that's not what you're objecting to.

I don't believe in being welcoming to everyone. I don't believe that is possible.

But I don't understand what you ARE objecting to. What do you fear is going to happen to our community if we embrace this idea?

'B and C' POV are pretty clearly covered by the other answers:)


If you want an example of a counter-productive action, consider a 'directive' from SO that says:

You must be nicer to new account holders. Take more care when writing comments to ensure that perceptions of 'unwelcomeness' are reduced.

Possible reception: the skilled and experienced developers who volunteer the odd half-hour of free time to provide technical advice to other SO users read that as:

Your volunteer time is no longer to be spent wholly on accurate technical answers. You must spend some of that time on analysing how the recipients might perceive it, and ensure that, whatever you write, it is clear that it is not meant as hostile. Your vast array of technical knowledge should be reduced in priority and the weight on social skills and empathy increased. Stop givng the appearance of being an elite developer just because you actually are. Don't just respond to the questions in a purely technical, engineering fashion, just because you are an engineer'.

Possible result:

WTF is this? If the OP's don't want an accurate, direct, terse technically-correct answer, why did they bother posting a question to SO? Imma not going to have my volunteered time controlled by these posters. Either they take my comments as I wish to put them, ie. technically correct and as quick for me to write as I can, or I'll just not bother commenting and the OPs can do without requests for clarification, 'quick answers' that don't give me any rep, hints etc. OK, fine, I'm going to follow the letter of the directive. No more comments at all on new accounts. The OP's will lose out on technical help, but they won't feel as 'unwelcomed'. That's what they seem to be asking for, so that's what they can have. Saves me wasting time on asking for clarifications and edits that are often ignored or slagged off anyway. I'll spend my comment time on '>50' questions and answering good ones. Why are the new users committing suicide like this?

...backfire.

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  • I'm sympathetic to the data portion of this argument. I wonder whether you feel like this has been handled on SO's part with worse data than they handle most other problems? Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:42
  • "I don't believe in being welcoming to everyone. I don't believe that is possible." I agree. Which set of people do you think SO should not attempt to welcome? For yourself, is it primarily the newbies, i.e., people who express umbrage when they ask a bad question and then get downvoted? Or is it a different group of people? Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:45
  • Also, what about what @CodeCaster says here? "You can't make both a misogynist and a woman feel welcome." I'm trying to understand how much of your concern is about question and answer quality, and how much of it if any is about social and cultural change. Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:51
  • @CharlieKilian well, there are obvious sets - those who issue profane abuse at, welll anybody. I doubt that many want them on the site, and I'm sure that SO deals with them as best it can, i.e nuke their account, (well, active account, anyway). For me, I guess the biggest set of users I have an issue with ATM are those who post a question to SO so that it can be handled by a set of volunteer skilled and experienced professionals/enthusiasts, and then email/meta to complain when their question is handled by a volunteer set of skilled and experienced professionals/enthusiasts:( Commented May 3, 2018 at 18:17
  • @CharlieKilian Which set of people do you think SO should not attempt to welcome? - The ones who have no interest in following the rules and meeting quality standards.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 22:40
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I think this is a clearly reasonable question and think it is a pity that it has been downvoted. I was afraid of multiple things, most of which - with the benefit of more time and more information - seem unlikely to come to pass. But for the sake of having those fears collected in one place, as a reference for the significant minority of users who seem baffled by how anyone could object to Jay's post, I will list here what my fears were:

1. Loss of existing comments pointing out errors in answers

Jay's post calls for us to delete some unclearly-specified class of comments that he calls "unkind":

let’s start by working with the community and our community managers to start flagging and deleting unkind comments now.

A large fraction of my ~2000 undeleted comments point out errors in answers. Most of them required at least a minute or two of testing and experimentation to confirm that the answer was wrong in the way I thought it was; some represent far greater investments of effort. It seems to me that a comment pointing out that somebody else's answer is wrong is arguably inherently "unkind"; that this would be the staff's favoured interpretation was supported by the fact that Jay's blog post referred to various ordinary moderation actions and critical comments as being "sad", "snarky", or "condescending". Even if the standard of "kindness" weren't applied that harshly, it seemed likely to me that whatever standard the staff did choose to apply, there would likely be historical comments of mine (and others') that violated it. I feared that man-days or man-weeks of work I'd done testing answers and recording their defects for future readers, gradually built up over five years - and many, many times as much work again by other posters - might be about to be destroyed, leaving bad answers without any indication of their flaws.

(This fear seems unlikely to materialise. I discussed this with Tim and Shog in chat, starting at https://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6926218#6926218, and Shog more or less said that no crackdown on this sort of comments is planned and that they will not be moderated any differently to prior to Jay's post.)

2. Conflict over how to show "kindness" in critical comments in future

One of the fundamental problems with trying to enforce stricter civility rules is that while we can more-or-less agree on what egregious incivility looks like (slurs; sexual advances; swearing at somebody; comments that purely insult the addressee without adding anything constructive or informational), we generally can't agree on what mild incivility looks like (let alone politeness). This is especially true because Stack Exchange users come from all over the world, and norms of politeness differ between national cultures; consider, as an example, how Brits visiting America frequently report feeling uncomfortable in American bars and restaurants because the service staff are too friendly.

Some examples I've seen or been involved in involving differences in opinion over politeness on Stack Exchange:

  • The time that well-meaning mods on UX Stack Exchange edited a comment of mine from an argument I got into with another user to try and made them less hostile... but to my sensibilities, made it much more hostile, such that I was embarrassed to have my name against it.
  • Joel Spolsky's example of a "fairly friendly" comment at https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/138203/200582 which to me just sounds irritatingly patronising.
  • jpp's view in revision 2 at https://meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/366050/revisions that what to me seems like a perfectly harmless comparison with a neutral tone is somehow "unnecessary, potentially demeaning, sarcasm". (jpp's bewilderment matches mine; when I queried why he felt that the passage he removed was sarcastic, he was unsure if I was being serious. I was, and I still don't get it, even in a detached, abstract way.)
  • April Wensel's examples of how "condescending" and "discouraging" comments can be rewritten to not be so, like the ones shown at https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/974859164747931650. Unlike the other cases here, I can see the comment from her perspective once it's pointed out, but would never naturally do so. And her proposed rewrites, perhaps ironically, violate a norm of politeness that I tend to instinctively follow on Stack Overflow, which is not to instruct people to do things (like "Could you add [the rest of the code] to your question?"), but to simply observe problems (or perhaps, occasionally, very gently suggest possible courses of action) and leave it up to the recipient whether to act on my commentary.

If people whose notions of decency are somewhat alien to me were to start enforcing "kindness", as they perceive it, then I doubt that I'd be able to stay on the right side of the rules for long, even if I sincerely attempted to. And I might not sincerely attempt to, because if your standard of politeness requires me to behave in ways that I'm not comfortable with, then perhaps I'll just decide that your standard of politeness can get fucked. Either of these failure modes sounds like a way for me to get my comments deleted or get in trouble with the mods.

(Again, this fear seems to be completely unfounded since, per my discussion with staff on chat, there is no actual change in comment moderation policy coming; I primarily interpreted Jay's post as an announcement of an imminent radical change in comment moderation policy, but apparently not.)

3. Loss of the freedom to treat women and "people of color" (whoever they are, exactly) as my equal peers

The discussion of women and "people of color" in the blog post was premised on, at least, the idea that members of those groups "especially" perceived Stack Overflow as hostile - and worded it in a way that left it ambiguous whether it was asserting that members of those groups collectively believed us to be hostile towards them on the basis of their sex or race. It discussed how "we" can be "biased ourselves" but not "recognize" it. Tim doubled down on this idea, saying the outright "rudeness" and "hurtful" interactions can be "in plain view" to "groups of people who experience discrimination" but not "seen by" some others (i.e. white men, I guess, or maybe some slightly broader category, depending upon who Jay means by "people of color").

If we're going to accept the premises 1) that there are interactions with women and "people of color" that drive them off the site that white men literally can't perceive as problematic, and 2) that we need to stamp out those interactions, then I don't really see any other conclusion but to expect white men to treat everyone who is not a white man with especial gentleness to avoid doing... whatever these things are that uniquely upset people from particular demographics that I'm apparently unable to empathise with.

(This fear too seems unlikely to materialise; I still don't know what the heck I am supposed to make of the stuff about gender and race in the blog post, let alone Tim's suggestion that for (some? most?) women and people of color "every moment of every day" that they work is like someone telling them that they're "wrong or are incapable or incompetent", but Tim has at least explicitly said that whatever is being proposed is "not to say that we need to treat people with kid gloves, ... We'll treat people like grown-ups, and expect them to be open to criticism", which is at least somewhat reassuring.)

4. Retaliation against dissenting views

A blog post that starts by declaring its thesis to be "truth" and exhorting us to "accept" it, without ever presenting any evidence of it, didn't exactly give me much faith that a free discussion about these issues was going to be allowed to unfold without censorship or retaliation against those of us who are opposed to the company's feminist politics. I half-expected to wind up suspended for dissenting, along with many other users. Tim's brief engagement with April Wensel's proposal to require all users to explicitly express agreement with some kind of ideological document about being "welcoming" or be banned from participation on the site was also concerning to me, since it would almost certainly result in haemorrhaging a large fraction of our userbase overnight.

And yet there seems to have been little censorship of dissent that I've seen (with the exception of a comment purge and temporary locking of Is Stack Overflow really racist/sexist?, the motivation for which I don't know), and Tim never actually expressed approval of April's idea and assures me that he was just thinking out loud on Twitter. I've been constantly critical of the blog post since it went up, including attacking Tim's post in a regrettably obnoxious manner (sorry again, Tim), but nobody has had words with me or made any attempt to silence my complaints. The community was understandably and reasonably paranoid when a mod ceased to be a mod a short while after condemning Jay's post, but we're assured that, whatever the reasons, they didn't involve him being stripped of position for that condemnation. The staff seem to have dealt with everyone shouting at them with admirable tolerance and congeniality.


In conclusion, basically everything I was afraid of seems to not actually be happening. That's not to say that I'm now a fan of the blog post; it was vague enough to permit the fears I've enumerated above as fairly natural readings of the official position (or so I think; you may disagree and think my interpretations were insane), and it threw out some pretty radical claims about how the inner lives of our users correlate with their sex and skin color without offering any actual evidence to let us assess those claims. But as far as my view on the actual policy change that the blog post represents? There doesn't seem to actually be one, so it's hard to be radically opposed to it. Maybe I should be critical of the fact that this welcoming drive seems to be without any actual substance, but considering what I initially thought the substance was, that nothing's actually happening seems like quite a good thing.

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