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The Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change. blog post says:

But how do we really know that too many developers experience Stack Overflow as an unwelcoming or hostile place? Well, the nice thing about problems that relate to how people feel is that finding the truth is easy. Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done. And a lot of devs feel like Stack Overflow is an intimidating, unwelcoming place. We know because they tell us.

Contrary to what is said above, I don't think that finding the truth is that easy. Finding what a single person feels might be as simple as asking them. But finding what a diverse community thinks is much harder.

So my questions is: What data do you have to support what is said above and in the rest of the blog post? Who did you talk to? How many people are "a lot of devs"? Do you have specific data about how people in groups that are talked about in the blog post ("newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups") feel?

One nice thing about Stack Overflow is its openness when it comes to its data. Can you share the data you're basing the above claims on too?

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    @MartinJames "It is not to present data that proves or illustrates a problem that needs action" I was actually promised some numbers meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/365811/…
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:42
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    I disagree with this being closed as a duplicate, because there is a big difference in asking for the already available data to be made public (this question) and asking to collect more data (the other question).
    – user743382
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:18
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    @svick well, sure, looking for good numbers etc. is the way to go. I doubt you will find them amid the vapid histrionics of blggers and 'I hate StackOverflow' sites. I suspect, but don't know for sure, ('cos I don't like faith-based rants either, I want numbers), that a small percentage of users don't get what they want from SO and a small percentage of those moan about it on those sites. SO is so large, though, that an unrepresentative number of disgruntled individuals can give an impression of a massive wave of hostility:( If you get numbers that show I'm wrong, fine:) Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:09
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    @svick I mean, we get, quite often on meta, posts about 'unhelpful egotist, mob-downvoting jerks' that, apparrently, spend a huge amount of effort on downvoting questions that do not deserve it. I always ask for a few links to examples. Guess how many have been supplied? Yup - none. Zero examples, with some excuse, eg 'I haven't any to hand, but everyone knows it goes on', or 'I don't want to target anyone specifically'. To me, this says 'I don't have any examples at all':( Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:16
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    @svick even that is problematic. Identifying real 'new users' is not as easy as you might think. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:22
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    As you might expect, I'm not too impressed by bloggers cherry-picking. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:18
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    Am I expecting too much? I would lke to see: 'in a random sample of 10,000 questions from the last 12 months, 34 posts from users in the 1-5 rep range were identified as dissatisfied with the way they were treated on SO. The posts were filtered with [some condition] and the list below has links to them: [links]. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:30
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    @Makoto In a feud between France and Turkey, I remember a Turkish politician saying "How dare those Europeans criticize our laws regarding rape, they have the highest rape statistics". It is not only unreported cases but there are also cases where it is legalized. "Hard data" is just a product of your own system. I think the main problem here is looking at this like an engineering problem.
    – user2285236
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:46
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    @ayhan it's an engineering site. How should we look at it? Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:53
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    @ayhan so, how do you measure this 'unwelcome factor'? If it cannot be quantified, we cannot fix it. Indeed,. we can't even say it actually exists in any appreciable numbers outside cherry-picked blogs:( Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 17:11
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    @ayhan no, I'm not going to be drawn in to an issue from 150 years BC. If a problem on SO cannot be quantified, or even identified with some probability, then how are we to decide how much of limited resources should be spent on correcting it? Some will say that SO is too welcoming, and that the original vision as a Q&A site for professional and enthusiast programmers has been lost. Just because a blogger says there is a problem does not mean that there actually is, and does not justify the effort required to solve it without some actual evidence. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 17:35
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    Out of a community of thousands, a few trolls make trouble. Out of a community of thousands, a few people take offense to the trolls and complain. Witness the fallout - I suspect there is no real data beyond the anecdotal.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:45
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    @ayhan FYI gender equality is measured in pretty much all the ways possible: salary, position, work hours, education etc. Are these measurements absolutely infallible and accurate? Certainly not, but without anything, we are just randomly guessing.
    – Passer By
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:41
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    Lets face it, - who here has time to profile users before handling questions/answers? I often argue with those who ask for comments on downvotes by saying that such comments take time and effort away from answering good questions in the, often vain, hope of rescuing a bad one. You can imagine, therefore, how little I care for profiling users before handling posts. It's a pointless waste of time and would quite possibly give an inaccurate result, given the nature of the web. If anyone is genuinely convinced it's an issue, fine - lie on your profile. Take on any persona you think may help. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 13:18
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    @JohnSlegers Any examples? Rude behavior is normally flagged right away, and users being rude repeatedly will be banned, so I find it hard to believe such experienced users would survive on SO for long. Show me an experienced member (including moderator) calling a newcomer a "f***cking retard" or wishing cancer on their family. Commented May 2, 2018 at 15:17

12 Answers 12

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SO is evidently unwelcoming, as I can easily demonstrate with explicit evidence. Unfortunately, it seems that the worst abuse is directed at the user-moderators who volunteer to curate the site:

Why wouldn't I? I agree with it. But each of my bullet points is an attempt to help. Pretty much every comment is sabotaging the site. Not a weird but an unacceptably painful message for those who mainly live on Meta. One of the closers has not answered a single question on SO in the last 2 years. Some contribution! Closing a call for ideas as 'Too Broad'. What a bunch of assholes. Repeat: Assholes. If you could you would delete the blog.. I'm out of here

Fuck yall you guys can never help me. this shit is like fucking reddit. fuckign cancer retards.

I found this It seems about it! Dislikers, fu

Please dont write stupid racist people !

I'd ask again using a single tag where you are not going to get zapped by morons who think this question is too broad

You people are incredibly arrogant! I'm not asking you to do the work for me, I am asking for direction.

This is a joke! I thought this was a place where people go for help? I did not realize this was a place where people with little egos make condescending remarks about people's questions. If you don't like my question, move on to another question. Let someone who cares about helping people on this site answer the question! I have never laughed so hard in my life! I'm not going to waste any more of my time with you people.

I need to write a program which tests whether the users on this stack exchange site, are a bunch of cunts or not, working under the strong assumption (supported by evidence) that they are. What would be the best way to achieve this?

I edited my question and added the three letter word "How" to clear up any confusion. Sorry you were just completely lost and without any guess as to what I needed help with without the word How in there! You're ridiculous. Go harass someone else. If you're not going to help someone don't waste their time with meaningless comments.I'm done. That's the solution. This is not the place for me and new people are not welcome to this site

very kindly. I'm deleting my account after being on here for over 3 years and being talked down to. You people are sick in the head or something and you need to all get over your shitty ego.

Hmm, I did leave out 'trolls' that epithet is particularly fitting. I also have thought of one more: the wink-wink nod-nod coalition. Also the "haves" vs the "have-nots" etc. But on second thought I think trolls give a connotation of posessionless interlopers, however, we are talking here of the possessioned overlords who survey and plunder questions like they are mining for gold

I hope my questions never cross your path. I shudder to think about being victim to your obviously capricious nature. I would rather no answer then to be subjected to the ridicule and abuse of a self-proclaimed S.O. Justice Warri0r And I thought all along (and still do) that it's the zombie bot coalition of dupe-flaggers, downvoters, and editors that is abusing the system to prop up their point score or get their jollies off by tormenting lesser-level players I mean users. Is that really want S.O. wants? Players who see this as a big game? These users have lives and deadlines. It ain't a game to them

I would say @MartinJames that with great power comes great responsibility -- to not irk and browbeat your subjects. It shouldn't be a license to meet out your vengeance on poor unsuspecting users via downvoting and summary dupe-flagging. If you don't like the users you serve (for free) then don't do it. Go play someother game that's more enjoyable.

ho do you serve, all you who work for free? Do you really care that much about helping S.O.'s bottom line by getting roped in to this delusionary gravitational net of crowd-sourcing they have pulled on you? Or do you just like the power it gives you. I think a little of both

the post itself is good' well, was the before, or after, the OP editied out all the code and replaced it with: 'fuck this site ........ fuck this site ........ fuck this site ........'

When you started out, did you know everything Martin? StackOverflow unfortunately is the only support for some very naive and new developers that will eventually turn out to be as good as you (they can only dream, right?). Sure, they'll look back on their terrible questions and think "man, that was a terrible question." It sure doesn't help when arrogant, Napolean-complex driven hyper-sensitive and highly particular StackOverflow experts dogpile a mountain of discouragement and knit-pickiness on them. It will just give them anxiety about asking questions. Be nice rule is 100% not followed here

I don't give f*** about 'Meta-people'

Gosh you are rude idiots. I hope you rot in hell

You jerk! Why did you mark my question as a duplicate? It is not my decision not to respect the standard. If you don't know the answer or don't want to help, do you really have to shit on my question? What is your f*****cking problem dick? This shit you posted as a duplicate did not help me at all!!!! Stupid f****cker.

whoever give me 2 downvotes you are a fucking idiots THIS IS A BIG FUCK YOUUUUUUU

You guys are fucking retarded. Telling me to edit my post.. well guess what? I can't even edit it. I hope all your family members get cancer. Fucking retards. Fucking reddit scrubs. Cancer retards.

sad admins keep deleting my comments but cannot do anything. the truth is your mom and granma had fxked by doggies. and u are the fxkin puppies

Piss off! I will never support this site again! Clearly for noobs! I have resolved the issue thanks for nothing!

Please personally email me. I will send you my address so you can all actually suck my fucking cock. Clearly this site is not meant to help beginners. You guys are stuck up pricks. Peace out. Never asking a question on this site again.

can you guys get your heads out of your asses and try to help for once instead of proposing edits and down voting questions smh seriously some of you are just obnoxious freaks jesus christ

How could I be more specific? I provided an image of what I want to make and I am a beginner... Hope you enjoyed downvoting my question. Now go F*** yourself

Ahh, that elitist ring. Music to my ears. By the way, you're confusing an online forums with Harvard. This is bloody online message board, not NASA. Writing answers to gain 'rep points' is not respectable. Please, stop treating this site like it's sacred. It's not and it reeks of arrogance. I honestly can’t believe what you said about the site having no room for beginners. There really is nothing more preposterous to you than going out of your way to assist someone, just to help - is there? I’m done here. It’s.a.f*cking.online.forum. Not the Vatican.

And by the way, notice the downvotes. It's just classic. I obviously mean well. But fuck it. Downvote the bastard. The elitist culture is poignant - and feel free to tell me if im off base. just speaking my mind

fuck you. this entire site is discouraging to newcomers, fuck you [username]

I am increasingly finding people on this site to be dense my question is NOT opinion based no thinking has been applied. It is a case of heavy handedness by people given too much power

help me fucking motherfuckerss

Marting james LMMFAO! Deleting my account.

Opps mispelled your name. read my previous comment. what a jerk

Going out on a limb, I'm going to suggest that such comments are on the hostile side, yes. No need for any tricky detection of perceived condescension or 'implicit bias'.

The only substantial set of rude and abusive comments, anywhere on SO, are directed against user-moderators who downvote and close bad questions.

I now know why there is no evidence of racist/sexist bias on SO - it's all leaked out into the other SE groups:

'Frankly this seems to be a much larger problem on the sister sites than it is on SO. – Robert Harvey 2 days ago

@RobertHarvey That's true. What may be implicit bias in SO becomes explicit on some other sites on the network. Subjects like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc aren't on topic on SO, but they are on some other sites. When questions dealing with these subjects hit HNQ, things get pretty awful pretty quickly. – apaul 2 days ago

Yeah, right. There is no evidence of bias on SO because it's 'implicit' and then somehow leaks out onto other groups. Is that the best argument that the bloggers, etc. can come up with?

Would SO close an explicit homophobic post as 'Off topic'? Hell no, it would be deleted almost before anyone could read it.

FOLLOW-UP: This is how I became a pretentious, trolling bigot, (allegedly):

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/309018/758133

NOTE: It has been pointed out by a couple of commenters that it may not be obvious that these examples are ONLY from posts where I have been directly involved. No way have I trawled through comments associated other user-moderators. If they wish to add examples, I'm fine with that, but I would not do it for them. It would be inappropriate, especially with the worst and most offensive posts.

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    ...besides, what would it matter anyway? The truth is, I have no single block of time free to go over, or write queries for, comments. Whenever I saw a partucularly insulting comment, I copied into my diary. That's all. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:25
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    I have more, but this answer has quite enough as it is:) Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:27
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    My comment was actually a joke about how easily it was to gather evidence of established SO users being on the receiving end of such remarks instead of the new ones. Since as I noted before, those trying to argue that SO is unwelcoming to new users aren't able to produce evidence of such exchanges.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:27
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    Oh - in the interest of full disclosure, some of those comments were from meta, but even so, the use of such wording is bound to offend a lot of people. It doesn't bother me at all, except when I am expected to swallow the 'implict sexual/racial bias' allegations as well! Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:32
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    @Braiam I know:) Why it is expected that SO user-moderators should have to put up with allegations of racial etc. bias based on invisible evidence, while on the receiving end of such continual abuse is beyond me:( Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:34
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    I mean, if anyone actually believes that I hate all newbies, they are cordially invited to look over my comments and add up all the times I've commeted in a quick solution to a newbie issue because I could not be bothered to find the dupes and/or did not want rep for it. I must have typed/copied in 'You must correcty and competely handle the results returned from system calls like recv()' dozens of times. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:46
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    @jpp sure. I can take all that beating up. What I cannot accept is the hypocricy of this 'implicit, hidden, invisible' bias that SO contributors are supposed to portray while user-moderators are getting slagged off every day, for real.. So far, the 'bias',. it's like the aether - some sort of nebulous material that infests SO, but cannot be directly detected/evidenced. Just as the aether was found to be unnecessary for EM wave propagation, I suspect that those spurious allegations of bias will eventually be shown to be false. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:55
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    That'd be awesome, but totally not required. I'm interested in looking at what happened after these comments. We can't stop abusive comments from being posted, but if they're handled well (user messaged, user toned it down, etc.) a single case is less of an issue than systemic "rude comments slipping by"
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:49
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    Trotting out old, deleted comments is only evidence of the existence of bad actors and the effectiveness of the moderation system, not of a systemic problem with civility.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:24
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    @RobertHarvey: but it is a systemic problem with civility, and it clearly points to aggressive behaviour against us! Now I feel marginalized, like the free help and advise I'm handing out is not appreciated at all. I am discriminated against because I write answers on Stack Overflow! If I'm going to apply for a job and an interview question is if I have an SO account, I'm going to have to lie.
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:42
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    @Stewart 'Does the sample size represent reality?' certainly not! They are only the examples where I have personallly been involved. The actual numbers of such posts, across all user-moderators is, of couse, much larger. 'Anyone doing something good attracts haters; and you will never please everyone;' very true. The impression given, though, is that down and close voting is hostile, and user-moderators should be taken to task for it. That, while being verbally flogged on meta and main and, oh yes, while being 'implcitly' racist/sexist :( Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:46
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    @Stewart: While I agree that better data would be better than plural anecdotes, I think you're missing Martin's point -- that far from SO being an "unwelcoming place", (a small but loud contingent of) the new users are the ones responsible for the vitriol.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:57
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    So a few of us just grabbed flagged comments still visible (from the live DB) and well, they generally look like that. "Fck you indian scum!" and worse. If those are visible for even 5 minutes, they hurt people, regardless of how 'well' moderation works. It's not wrong of us to want to work to keep them from entering the system at all, and we should.
    – user50049
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:06
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    @TimPost Can you see how us trying to help curate content feel like we're under attack by the very people who think SO is too rude? The perception of it leads to those who don't care attacking those who do, and we have no way of mitigating or preventing it. It's a never ending stream of abuse, which, honestly, sometimes makes me wonder why we keep trying.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:53
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    @MartinJames yep and most if not all of these niceties come from new users, when they join and before they are sent packing to other forums. In fact, I bet that most of those comments come from users being kindly moderated. The same users that do benenfit from moderation are often the ones complaining about moderation. There's so much hypocrisy around this subject.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 21:11
108

I know Stack Overflow is perceived as unwelcoming by some users because (gasp!)

It is that way by design.

If you aren't familiar with Mathematical/Economic "game theory", you may want to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

The fact is, on this Internet there are a bunch of well-meaning users who want to be helped and be helpful to others. But there are also trolls who just enjoy watching the world burn, and there are lazy people who want to externalize costs and risks and internalize rewards.

It's true that as Stack Overflow (or any Stack Exchange site) grows, the more resources are available, so this isn't strictly an optimization problem on a zero-sum game. For example, a well-written answer can be shared with a nearly unlimited number of future readers for a cost so low it might as well be zero.

But it's also true that the site can only survive a certain fraction of the user base that reaps benefit1 imposes burdens without giving anything back. Not everyone has to write answers -- good and clear questions are super important. But poorly written questions waste the time of everyone who sees them, and when the author of the question is unwilling or unable to make their question good, then even the most well-meaning experts will have to gaze into their crystal ball to figure out what was meant, chances are the original asker will never get the right answer because they didn't ask the right question, and I would argue that goodwill from stroking the asker's ego just is insufficient to redeem this situation.

Worse, making new users feel good about their question when it's actually a mess robs the users who wish to improve of the opportunity to do so.

So, by design, we demand that new users edit their contributions into shape. This should be a polite but firm and unyielding demand. The users who want to grow into contributing members of the community show that through their response, and we should patiently help them to do so. And the users who are here to take advantage of free help and care nothing for the effect it has on others, we have always chased away post-haste because that protects the site. Not for the sake of the site, but for the sake of all other users, future users, and future visitors who will not have a site to help them if we allow the world to burn.

So we, the experienced users of Stack Overflow, will not give up our pitchforks and torches. It's entirely reasonable to insist that they be hidden until a help vampire is unmasked, and provide much better guidance on how to help the users who are trying to behave. There's a lot that can be done in terms of targeting this self-defense mechanism better and reducing collateral damage. But the self-defense mechanism must not be sacrificed. When we find those who wish to use the site as access to slaves, imprisoned 24x7 for their benefit, and it's a matter of survival... when the truth becomes clear, it really is "us" or "them", and the users who attempt to tear down what we worked so hard to build, we will never welcome.

Those who think this is cruel and unusual need to spend a few thousand hours building the community before they attempt to judge it, so they can really understand the dynamics. Once you can acknowledge that the problem is not that I use the phrase "help vampires", but how to separate the humans from the vampires (and trolls and spammers), then I and my fellow trusted users will welcome your input.


1 I just realized that I originally contradicted myself there. Non-contribution is not, of itself, a problem. People can benefit by reading the site all they want, and needn't feel guilty about not contributing. Asking bad questions is different because it demands effort from other users and dilutes the useful information making it harder for future readers to find it.

Another point often missed is that the site provides value even to problem users who get banned. They still can anonymously read all the Q&A contributed by others.


P.S. A healthy, well-controlled but vigorous mechanism for dealing with trolls, help vampires, and spammers is also what gives us the tools for dealing with racism/sexism. In fact, I would argue that most cases of racism and sexism actually come from trolls and help vampires. Those interested in giving and receiving technical help may initially fall afoul of implicit bias but cooperate with having that edited out to focus on the technical details.

P.P.S. Something I intended to address from the very beginning but then ran out of time for, is that much of the self-defense is now, if not actually automated (because it depends on user moderation actions of voting and flagging), at least directly supported in the site infrastructure. Things like automatic question bans and automatic account deletions deliver the bad news to the bad seeds without tempting users to curse and swear, and without any easily identifiable human target for the banished user to berate. Even better, the rules these bans use are completely reproducible and equally applied to all users without regard for any demographic (admittedly, disparate impact is still possible).

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    There is something quite contradictory in the expectations of people who post (clearly) bad questions here. They see a site full of good, focused, on topic, factual questions and answers. They think: yey! I can ask my bad (broad/off-topic/opiniated) question there, it's full of helpful people! And they are still angered when their question gets shot down.
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:54
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    @usr2564301: If only that (site comprised of only good, focused, on topic questions and correct answers) were so. In reality far too many of the windows are broken, and users do periodically point to examples of similar posts being allowed to survive as evidence of unfair treatment (although few bother to worry about such niceties)
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:25
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    Missed opportunity to lead with, "Guys, it's time for some game theory". Also, the 2014 enigma. My gut feeling is that SO is limited primarily by answerers' ability to find questions that pique their interest, which leads to an excess of frustration when the volume of uninteresting questions exceeds what most are willing to wade through; this is almost (but not completely) separate from the problem of finding answers to a problem, although that can also be exacerbated by scale/quality.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 23:45
  • @Shog9: I agree that dilution is a problem for both answered and unanswered questions. I think that finding answers to a problem suffers from scale more than we realize. One of the real problems that is often overlooked by the "don't close, just let me answer it" crowd is that some questions involve subtleties, and only a small fraction of those who try to answer will actually get it right. For such questions, failure to close as a duplicate (and delete/downvote all the repetitions of the wrong answer) will harm people who come looking for a solution.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:43
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    Yeah, I've certainly encountered that. Doubly irritating when the question is clearly not a duplicate, with a title that calls out the distinction and folks still provide a pile of answers that ignore it.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:53
  • @Shog9: I think we're talking about two different things now. You're talking about posts that don't answer the question, while I'm talking about posts that spread unsafe techniques. For example, the deleted answers at stackoverflow.com/q/11511510/103167 and stackoverflow.com/q/17636690/103167
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 1:06
  • @Shog9 - part of the scale problem is that since a search box is the mechanism through which questioners determine whether their question has already been answered, bad search entries lead people to think their question is new. For example, the first question I answered on SO was Caret on R spills "unable to find variable optimismBoot" error message. Unless one is adept at keyword search, one will post a new question (as 2 other users did between September 15th and 18th).
    – Len Greski
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 10:50
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    Yeah, search - particularly the title search on the ask page - could do with some improvements. Work there is ongoing.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:39
  • 'Tragedy of the Commons' is bogus: it purports to be an historical observation; but was written by a right-wing Economist with no background in History. There are ancient Commons still working well (for example the New Forest in Southern England). The Commons in England (and especially Scotland and Ireland) were taken away by rapacious absentee landlords; not because of any collapse of a system of community and trust.
    – AntC
    Commented Dec 5, 2020 at 12:17
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    @AntC: The problem may be with your attempt to connect "Tragedy of a Commons" to the particular historical commons you are thinking of -- it is a valid game theory result concerning incentives on use of shared resources.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Dec 6, 2020 at 0:42
43

We don't know that Stack Overflow is unwelcoming. There may be a severe "culture problem" that negatively impacts the community; that data has not (so far) been presented.

The other answer here gives a list of anecdotes. I don't know who originally said it, but the plural of anecdote is not data. I may be able to give you a massive list of Cardiologists who have falsified test results, performed dangerous and unnecessary surgeries to make money, engaged in conspiracies to falsify research data, and sexually harassed students, but that doesn't actually mean that there is some general issue with Cardiologists.

Specifically, if you're going to provide a list of "unwelcoming" comments, then we have to know how many comments you came across that were welcoming or neutral during your search for the unwelcoming ones.

Let's say that you compile a list of 100 unwelcoming comments and your sample (the total number of comments you searched through to find the 100 bad ones) was 1,000 comments. That means that 10% of the comments you looked at were unwelcoming. If next year you can only find 10 unwelcoming comments for the same sample size, does that mean we've improved by an order of magnitude? What if your original sample was 10,000 but you failed to actually count them? Now the problem seems to have improved just based on having an accurate understanding of your sample size.

So if you want to look at comments for evidence of an unwelcoming culture, you cannot just circle the hits and ignore the misses and then claim that there is some underlying problem at work. You've got to pay attention to the evidence that contradicts your conclusion, too.

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    Awesome answer! Here was my comment on the other answer, which I put here as an effort to back you up: Really? A small sample of verbal abuse is your evidence? How does this fit in statistically compared with the number of people who don't feel this way? Basically, you're just giving the spotlight to the trolls and haters.
    – Stewart
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:27
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    My cardiologist is okay, such a competent and honnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:36
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    "The other answer here gives a list of anecdotes" -- Martin's answer isn't an attempt to answer the question with evidence; it is a frame challenge.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:57
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    I think there needs to be data on all sides of the equation. We have the blog post, which hand-waves away the need for data by saying "it's how they feel". I'm guessing there's plenty of people who feel differently, but their feelings were apparently not part of the sample either.... Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:27
  • 1
    @duplode Whether or not is a frame challenge is beside the point. They provided comments and called them evidence without considering the sample size. Reason doesn't work like that. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 23:19
  • 3
    @LucianoFCastelfranchi You are quoting those Meta posts (that you didn't link to) out of context. I'd say the first quote, in particular, is in fact an egregious misquote.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 1:40
  • 1
    @GregSchmit 'They provided comments and called them evidence without considering the sample size' OK somewhat guilty. Those comments were only from posts where I was personally involved. Those are the only ones I have diary notes of. The chances of other user-moderators with similar experience of such comments is, I guess, quite high. Nevertheless it is still infinitely more evidence that presented for racial/sexual bias and, as can be plainly seen, is not any kind of 'perceived' hostility. It's actual, well, hostility! Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:09
  • I would not trawl through comments in general and publish abusive posts. First of all, most have been deleted, (at least, those on the main site). Second, I would not assume that the users to whom the posts were directed would be happy with having them re-posted here without their permission, especially those grossly offensive ones that had been deleted. Offensive posts directed towards other user-moderators are their affair. If they wish to add examples, I'm fine with that, but I would not do it for them. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:21
  • 1
    In response to the concerns expressed here, I have added a note to explain that I posts only comments where I had been personally invoved, and have not performed any general DB queries.. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:30
  • 2
    'provided comments and called them evidence without considering the sample size' - I never said that the evidence was good evidence, just that is was explicit. The 'sample size' is what I, as one user, has experienced, and does not cover what other users may have received. Nevertheless, if I had only one comment posted, that's still infinitely better evedence than provded for other allegations that seem to be accepted as 'self-evidently true', eg. those from 'racist/sexist' blogs. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:46
  • @MartinJames That last point is well-made. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:26
  • Of course there is a problem with cardiologists, as a subset of the American medical profession in general, and the anecdotes (plural) are a very good indicator. As they were with the me-too movement and in many other cases. One anecdote is just that; many anecdotes are an indicator that something is up. Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 7:26
29

I have read all the questions and answers about the blog, and I still don't get what it's really all about. Thanks to that blog post, the Medium blog posts, Twitter and all that I feel attacked. I feel insecure. I feel self-doubt. Am I part of the problem? What problem? Why? What can I do to change? Should I?

Let's start with a question: should Stack Overflow (the site) be changed in such a way that everyone feels welcome? That is, in my opinion, a contradictio in terminis. You can't make both a misogynist and a woman feel welcome. At the same time you can't let "noobs" run amok and experts stay.

Should we get rid of nasty, snarky, offensive comments, if that's what this ultimately is all about? Then yes! As soon as possible! And usually such comments live for a mere couple of minutes, thanks to tens of thousands of volunteer community members.

Of course, at that moment the damage has already been done. If someone can think of a way to prevent even that, then please, step forward and propose your suggestion.

But in my opinion the site can't cater to everyone's needs, and that does seem like something that many are asking for.

If there are users out there who are new to programming, or new to online messaging systems or to the Internet in general, or to asking others for help, they're in for a hard time. They can't expect users to write every single bit of criticism (which is required to make a question actually answerable) something like this:

Dear fellow human, how nice of you to have posted on our site. Thanks for adding yet another grain of sand which one day might become a pearl! However, your question as currently stated, "My code gives an error, I Googled all day, but I can't figure out why", is unfortunately lacking the code giving the error, the line number on which it occurs and a description of the actual error. Could you pretty please with sugar on top include that into your question when you see fit, we'd be so delighted! May the coding gods ever be in your favor.

Lest they feel intimidated, let alone let them "suffer" if someone downvotes, closevotes or comments on their question for it being either unreadable or unanswerable.

Criticism is given to learn from, not to annoy you.

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  • 4
    I suggest you remove the sarcasm, it actively ruins your point.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:52
  • 26
    @PasserBy I wish I were being sarcastic. If you read the blogs and tweets in response to the Welcoming blog, you'd be surprised by the amount of people who are enraged we edit out "Hi" and "Thanks".
    – CodeCaster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 14:11
24

I will weigh in here a bit, as someone that is definitely not in the marginalized categories. I am a college educated, white male former developer (Professionally, anyway, I still code my own items). I spent 12 years (1999 - 2011) as a coder, albeit in a "dead" language. (Clipper). Most all of my skills are in less used languages (Pascal, Fortran, early C#, COBOL), due to my age and when I had my CS education. After my programming, I spent 6 years as a manager of the department, which means that my modern skillset (such as it was) atrophied.

When I have asked questions here, they are of the new user variety. I know how to do what I'm asking in other languages, but not in a modern construct. I've done research, tried to find answers, and either not understood what I was reading or unable to find the information. So I ask a question.

Most of the time, those questions get very little attention, and comments suggesting that I should have spent more time researching before asking the question, or that I was somehow deficient because I didn't understand what I was referencing. And consider, that because of my background and the time I spent reading how to ask beforehand, that I at least attempted to follow the moires around asking a decent question.

As a result, I really no longer utilize SO when I have a programming question (I have posted 2 questions in the last 2 years). Mostly because I have the perception that SO either doesn't care to answer, or that the site is so busy that the question disappears too quickly to get attention. Either way, the result is the same, I don't feel like the level of question that I ask currently is worth posting.

So, while I really can't speak to the experience of the minority, I can speak to the experience of an inexperienced/out of date programmer, in that I don't really feel welcome to post. This is limited to SO, as I am a very active user (and pro tem moderator) on several other exchanges.

5
  • 4
    I'm not seeing any insulting comments on the 11 questions listed on your profile. Were they deleted, or on questions that have been deleted? Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:22
  • 4
    @user2357112 - Both, IIRC. None of them were overtly hostile or demeaning. Just not...welcoming or helpful. Again, though, some of this is viewed through the veil of history, or "through a glass, darkly" in other words. :)
    – JohnP
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:25
  • 12
    My skills have also (mostly) atrophied. On the occasions that I need to ask questions, I don't use the site -- I honestly feel like others would see me as setting a bad example with my diamond and such basic questions (mostly SQL related). But I'm used to learning without having the Internet, so I'm okay with that. Still, it's .. unfortunate.
    – user50049
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:13
  • Hi, add some bounty you will have more answers
    – Serge
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 5:13
  • 5
    @Serge dubious strategy at best.
    – JohnP
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 15:05
20

I had an experience recently with a local bank branch that I thought might be relevant.

I'd heard from many friends that this branch had by far the best services (interest rates, no waiting for a teller, great perks, etc) in town. Curiously, I had also heard a lot of puzzling stories from people about how this particular branch had very complex rules for how to interact with it, and that if you didn't adhere to them, one of their tellers might slap you in the face!

Frankly, I found that rather preposterous, but to be on the safe side I did some research on all the correct forms & procedures (maybe not as much as I should have, but I really tried! The rules they published were rather complicated!) and went in to open an account. Sure enough, halfway through my interaction with my teller, he reached over the counter, told me that my application was terrible and not up to their standards and slapped me in the face! Kinda hard.

Naturally, I went to discuss the matter with a bank manager (BM) and had the following conversation:

Me: Hey, yeah, um, so I tried to open an account here, and one of your tellers slapped me in the face. Now, I recognize that maybe I didn't have all the right paperwork, but I really did try to come prepared. Is slapping people in the face really the best way for your tellers to deal with this? Maybe it would have been fine to just tell me to come back when I had all my info?

BM: Well, before we get started, you'll need to prove to me that you really were slapped in the face.

Me: Excuse me?

BM: Well, you wouldn't believe how many people come in here claiming to have been slapped in the face, but when we go back and check it turns out they were given, at best, a mild finger flick.

Me: How am I supposed to prove that?

BM: Oh! Right, well you see our lobby security cameras are all live streamed to a website. You'll just need to go find the correct time stamp and email us the URL.

Me: But...if you already have all that footage, surely you're already aware of the problem?

BM: What problem?

Me: Customers getting slapped in the face!

BM: If you think customers being slapped in the face is a problem, you'll need to present me with some hard evidence on exactly how often it happens to convince me that it's really a serious problem.

Me: So you admit that some customers are slapped in the face?

BM: Well...maybe. But I still haven't seen any hard evidence that it happens more than extremely rarely. Do you have any idea how many customers we serve? Hundreds and hundreds every week! If 1-2 get slapped in the face once in a while, that hardly seems like a problem that's worth our limited resources.

Me: Ok, hold on.

I went off and got testimonials (with URLs for the security footage) of 15-20 individuals being slapped in the face over the past several weeks and returned with that information.

Me: Here you go. See? Quite a few people are being slapped in the face.

BM: Have you checked how many of these people had all the correct paperwork? Because if people show up unprepared you can hardly blame my tellers for slapping one of them from time to time. They're only human.

Me: What do you mean? How are the tellers the victims here?

BM: Well, being a teller is very hard. You have no idea how many insufferable people they have to be patient with every day. In fact, one of our biggest concerns is that our tellers get burnt out and quit. Good tellers are very hard to find.

Me: But surely asking a small number of them to not slap customers in the face isn't unreasonable or, frankly, difficult for them?

BM: You're displaying a distinct lack of empathy for how emotionally trying their job is. You should try to be more considerate.

Me: Ok, whatever, can we get back to my set of testimonials here? Surely at least this is evidence that face slapping really is a thing?

BM: I definitely disagree. First, you need to remove all the cases in which the customer deserved to be slapped. Those don't count. Second, the number of cases here still just seems very low to me. Why should I care about such a small number of people being slapped in the face?

Me: I would have thought that any number of people being slapped in the face deserved at least some consideration? And who deserved to be slapped in the face?

BM: Not at all. As I'm sure you're aware, we're widely regarded as the very best bank in the region.

Me: Yes, that's why I came in the first place, but...

BM: And how do you think we got that way? Our efficiency depends upon maintaining the highest possible standards and expectations for how prepared our customers are when they come in for assistance. If we don't give customers feedback on the quality of their preparation, our efficiency will tank. Tellers will quit out of frustration. All that we've built will crumble. The occasional face slapping is hardly a big price to pay for keep things running as efficiently as they are.

Me: Surely it's possible to be efficient without slapping customers in the face?

BM: If you think so, you're welcome to go start your own bank branch and try. I doubt you'll succeed.

Me: This is truly baffling. I totally understand how your rather arcane rules for interacting with tellers is important, but that seems totally separate from the rudeness with which you enforce them.

BM: Not at all, they are inextricably linked. If customers start thinking they can come in here with zero preparation and expect our tellers to help them then we might as well close up show now. We've found that customers don't really respond to anything else.

Me: So...wait, you're saying that this branch is successful because your tellers slap people in the face?

BM: No! Don't put words in my mouth! But we have to maintain our quality standards somehow. Regardless, I still haven't seen any evidence that our tellers slap customers in any meaningful sense.

Me: But...all these timestamped URLs...?

BM: Those were bad customers. We don't care about them.

Me: So if I show you examples of good customers, I might convince you to at least discuss this problem?

BM: I highly doubt it. I'm quite sure our tellers only slap bad customers.

Me: But I thought you just said you hadn't seen any evidence that it happens at all?

BM: I haven't.

Me: Look, I don't want to take away all your efficiency rules, I just thought it might be nice to think about ways to slap fewer people.

BM: It's a slippery slope. Any changes we make to reduce face slapping will inevitably compromise our ability to serve our customers at the highest possible levels!

Me: I don't feel like that syllogism makes any sense...

BM: Trust me, it does! I know because we're the best and most successful bank in town.

At this point I gave up and left.

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  • 13
    Just an FYI, I'm not going to engage in the comments here. Feel free to complain about the deficiencies in the allegory here, I don't much care. If I made a few people chuckle, mission accomplished.
    – joran
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:28
  • 67
    I'm not sure this would work for SO. There are HUGE technical barriers to implementing a system where we can slap people in the face over the Internet... Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:02
  • 4
    @JeroenMostert - Are you forgetting "/me slaps [user] around a bit with a trout"?
    – JohnP
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:23
  • 4
    I really appreciate the work that went into crafting this well and I thank you for the chuckle.
    – nitsua60
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:29
  • 5
    You have accomplished your mission. Bravo.
    – auden
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:41
  • 27
    Though speaking as a teller-manager for one branch I should point out: you didn't respond to the slap with the desired response: "thank you for alerting me of my error, what did I do wrong?"
    – nitsua60
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:11
  • 6
    The question is whether the site is unwelcoming and not whether it ever happened to anyone to have a bad experience. Out of the million of users, I can tell you for certain that there have been cases. The whole point is how many. Do you know?
    – Sklivvz
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:24
  • 12
    I really did try to come prepared. unfortunately, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:45
  • 21
    This is a nice thought exercise which is totally unrelated. It's more like trying to sell something on Craigslist, posting a half baked ad, getting 1 bad response out of 1000 responses (and reporting that to CL), and then saying that Craigslist is hostile/racist/sexist.
    – enderland
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 18:05
  • 7
    I. Love. This. So. Much. A lot of this discussion falls under the category of "doth protest too much". The more defensive folks get about the idea that SO can be unwelcoming, the more it speaks to the likelihood that they're an example of said problem. Not that data wouldn't be helpful.
    – mauve
    Commented May 9, 2018 at 12:59
  • 14
    This answer appears to be constructed with the methodology it ascribes to the "tellers" it describes: adherence to irrationality, a slap in the face, and unwillingness to listen to any criticisms. The first comment is there to preemptively tell anyone who disagrees, however sincerely, to take a hike, but it also tacitly admits to knowing there might well be problems with the analogy. This kind of polarizing rhetoric is only effective at escalating conflict, not persuading, and a punch in the face for a slap only leaves everyone nursing sore jaws and dentists' bills. Commented May 21, 2018 at 6:03
  • 4
    @joran, you've hit the nail on the head. It's amazing how many people on SO respond with something akin to "Does not compute" when asked to take other users feelings into consideration. Commented Jun 6, 2018 at 13:22
  • 6
    This isn't a bank, we aren't employees. Everyone here are volunteers and we're all working hard to keep a communal area clean and functional - at the door to this garden of information we all maintain is an endless swarm of zombies and deadbeats who want to come in and wreck everything we all work so hard for. Yes, some of them get slapped away, and it is for the common good. Vandals and panhandlers who intend to contribute nothing and/or actively degrade the finely curated public park we've built can get stuffed.
    – J...
    Commented Jun 13, 2018 at 11:10
  • 22
    The other day I walked into a bank and shouted "Give me some money!" (I'd heard from many friends that this branch had by far the best services.) A bank teller approached me and told me they don't do that, as a general rule. So I changed it to "Please give me some money. Thanks in advance!" and they still refused to give me some. So I called him an arsehole ... and then he slapped me in the face. I will never go to that bank again.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jun 24, 2018 at 0:18
  • 11
    Equating question closure and downvoting with slapping people in the face is fundamentally a problem. That's not what they are. It's more like the teller saying, "Without your account number, I can't perform this transaction," when the customer doesn't have enough information to do whatever they're asking or, "We don't provide services for melting gold and selling it on your behalf," when presented with their deceased parents' wedding rings. No one defends unprofessional content; the only thing users defend is content moderation. This is nothing more than an intentionally misleading strawman.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 16:04
11

I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out a big piece of how I know there's a problem here on Stack Overflow...

Take a really hard look at how users are responding here on Meta, and on Meta.SE If this place didn't seem unwelcoming before, it most certainly does now. They doth protest too much, me thinks.

Then again, I already had a pretty reasonable data point. One that was misquoted in another answer:

That's true. What may be implicit bias in SO becomes explicit on some other sites on the network. Subjects like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc aren't on topic on SO, but they are on some other sites. When questions dealing with these subjects hit HNQ, things get pretty awful pretty quickly. – apaul 2 days ago

See, I spend a lot of time on other sites on the network, sites like Interpersonal Skills, Worldbuilding, and The Workplace. Places where occasionally people ask questions that deal with topics like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. And ya, when questions dealing with those topics hit the hot network questions list, things do get pretty awful pretty quickly.

Here's the kicker, and you guys are gonna love this part... Very often those users who show up and post the awful on those hot network questions, on other sites in the Stack Exchange Network, have profiles here too.

I don't need to believe that there's implicit bias here, when I know that users from here go out on to other sites in the network and exhibit explicit bias. What am I really supposed to believe that those misogynistic, racist, and homophobic beliefs magically disappear when they tab back over to Stack Overflow?

If you're innocent in all this, I congratulate you.

But can we please stop pretending that everyone is innocent? There really are some problems here.

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    "They doth protest too much, me thinks" -- While there has been a fair amount of reasoned criticism of the blog post, we have also seen a whole lot of automatic defensiveness and circling of wagons. I was particularly appalled by that one thread with a highly upvoted comment that essentially blames you for the blog post. Is it so hard to smell a conspiracy theory when it is right under one's nose? Where has all the objectivity gone?
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 3:38
  • 8
    As long as there are problematic people, there will be problematic topics. Discussing those topics on the internet is a hazardous exercise. The strength of my reaction (in any case) is that I don't want those topics imported here, because it is asking for trouble. You may say that they're here anyway, but hidden. I'd say so much the better. I don't want to know if someone writes mean comments because they're racist, or because they're fighting a losing battle against duplicates. The mean comment should get moderated per whatever policy is decided, and the commenter should learn, or leave.
    – Benjol
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:27
  • 6
    The penultimate sentence reads to me as "When will you stop beating your wife?" IMO it's Not Nice to read a subtext of deceit into a request which prima facie asks for evidence to help OP understand whether and to what extent the claims made are correct. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:48
  • 5
    "If this place didn't seem unwelcoming before [the blog post], it most certainly does now." There, I fixed that for you, no thanks needed. (To be a little clearer: the blog post and ensuing discussion have made it rather painfully clear that SO has significant numbers of users on different sides that, if push comes to shove and the issue is forcibly raised, feel mutually unwelcome because of each other's views. You can't satisfy those who are offended by any downvotes on any duplicates at the same time as those who are offended by lousy questions being constantly winked at.) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:14
  • 26
    Let's say there's a homophobe on Stack Overflow. (I'd say it's almost unavoidable that there is at least one, wouldn't you?) How's this going to manifest in a reaction on a poorly formatted question about JQuery if the asker hasn't picked "GayPride McStonewallRiot" as a nickname? The question isn't whether people with biases exist, but how those biases are expressed. Simply observing that there must be people who are biased is not enough to conclude that therefore, there must be a big problem on SO with bias. That's not to say there isn't, but seeing data on it would be good. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:48
  • 5
    @JeroenMostert: right. As a regular pedestrian, I have A Thing against people who park their bicycles anywhere they want on the sidewalk. Some of SO members surely must be doing that! But, before closing or answering their Python IndentationError question, how can I find that out – without arousing suspicion?
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:35
  • 2
    @JeroenMostert: I would gladly have said "no" because, other than some of the other sites (religion; interpersonal skills), SO specializes in programming and everything else is ruthlessly culled. But this question was an eye-opener for me for how insiduous and sneaky such behavior can be. It may be systemic or not, but even if it's just one such person, it is not something we – as a community – should silently let pass.
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:41
  • 2
    @usr2564301: I saw that one too, and I fully agree -- but there, of course, it didn't pass silently, it made it onto Meta. The "problem" (?) is that SO is moderated so ruthlessly that it's hard to even see such things, but at the same time, effective moderation is exactly the cure for it, so it would be hard to argue it's not doing its work properly. That's why it's particularly useful to have some numbers/data on how often this sort of stuff happens, and in what way, and from what sort of account, to know what an effective strategy is. Everyone adding "that is terrible" probably isn't it. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:04
  • 3
    @JeroenMostert To use an analogy, let's say that there was a police department that's been receiving complaints about biased policing, for years, but not much proof was gathered and most folks concluded that these complaints were baseless. Then a few officers from that department were caught in the next town over beating up a gay teenager. Would it cause you to go back and look a little harder at some of the previous complaints? Would you think that those officers should be fired, even though they committed their crimes in the next town over?
    – apaul
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:51
  • 3
    @apaul: I don't want to stretch an analogy until it breaks, so I see it more like this: I see no reason why someone couldn't be the most horrible racist/sexist/homophobe and shouldn't be let anywhere near any reasonable discussion on IPS, and also completely professional and competent when it comes to answering tech questions from people they'd despise on a personal level, if they got to that level. Would that make them "OK"? Of course not, but is cross-site interaction what the blog post used as its basis for drawing conclusions about SO? I don't think so. (But, of course, I don't know.) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:10
  • 3
    Thank you for posting this. Seeing these comments has been...infuriating, to say the least, and I thank you for pointing out the fundamental dilemma in what people are saying here.
    – auden
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:06
  • 3
    @JeroenMostert - As you say, it isn't readily apparent, unless someone chooses an avatar that displays it (And that isn't 100%), or a username (again not 100%). However, people investigate other people. They click on the username, see other sites, and go see what they post there. Or they look at the chat profile, and see where they hang out, and maybe listen in. It's not always explicit, but if someone is active in all facets of SO/SE/Chat, it can be inferred. All it takes is one person with an agenda to make someone else's life miserable.
    – JohnP
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 1:10
  • 1
    @DarthFennec: You missed the real irony... the way to protect vulnerable users from bad seeds is to make the troublemakers feel extremely unwelcome with a swift boot to the posting privileges. We should have a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" attitude toward people who use vitriol (especially without provocation). Yet the blog post advocates for the exact opposite. No wait, that's wrong. It demands that we not only tolerate, but make troublemakers feel welcome "because they're users too".
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:54
  • 1
    @BenVoigt I don't know if I'd say that. "let’s start by [...] flagging and deleting unkind comments now" doesn't seem to be demanding we make troublemakers feel welcome. The blog post mainly seems to be referring to well-meaning new users who don't know what the hell they're doing yet. I think one problem is it's often hard to distinguish between those people and some kinds of problematic users (help vampires, etc), so the former sometimes receive treatment we'd like to reserve for the latter. If the post focused on this issue instead of bringing up the racism/sexism thing, I'd like it more. Commented May 2, 2018 at 16:45
  • 1
    Interesting @apaul. Up until now, I had mostly read people that say "everyone is guilty (except the new users of course)", rather than "everyone is innocent". Commented Jun 18, 2018 at 12:21
8

What data do you have to support what is said above and in the rest of the blog post?

Twitter isn't too hard to scrape. Ask a new question to find out how. Also tag the language in which you want to do this.

Who did you talk to?

Me personally? About 1200 students I all sent to Stack Overflow for references, with the dire warning to NOT ask question unless you REALLY did a thorough search and are prepared to be called an idiot in the comments for asking something not challenging enough.

EDIT: I add that advice also because I myself have been closing a ton of questions with a comment "You find the answer to your question in the manual [here](some link to the manual)". Which I now realize isn't really the same experience as one would have on, for example, the RStudio community forum. Or even the Microsoft community forum (most snark is directed at MS developers there anyway). Questions don't get closed with the first hit on Google Search there.

How many people are "a lot of devs"?

"a lot" is a subjective measure, so that depends. But if you scraped Twitter, you can put a number of Twitter users on it. Not that these are all developers, but well...

Do you have specific data about how people in groups that are talked about in the blog post ("newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups") feel?

Yes. No. Specific anecdotes, and quite a few of them. In the JavaScript forum the other day people were discussing prices of prostitutes. Someone took offense. He was kicked off the chat.

https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/42306421#42306421

Now reading that transcript, it all seems in good jest. As a man, I personally feel not offended at all. It started with a report on developers somewhere in the US paying far too much for their prostitutes. So technically they're discussing a documentary.

Yet, I kindly invite anyone who thinks this is not unwelcoming to discuss the prices of prostitutes with your wife, mom or daughter. Let's see if it makes them feel uncomfortable. And keep in mind we're 2018, so there's quite a few female developers who -in my humble experience- do not appreciate discussing the price of their private parts when they want to know about JavaScript.

See, you can argue that Stack Overflow feels unwelcome by design, and that this is not a problem. I can understand that, and I personally have little problem with it myself. But denying it is an experience a lot of new users share, is denying the sunlight on a summer day.

I hope that answered your questions.

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  • 1
    I sounds as if you send the students to SE with very strongly worded advice. Is this how studies are designed today?
    – user9455968
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:55
  • 3
    @LutzHorn I give them the advice I got on the site here. First search, and be prepared to be told RTFM in 1001 ways if your question is not challenging enough.
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:56
  • 2
    This is strange and totally does not match the questions, comments, and answers I see daily. It is very uncommon to answer with RTFM and I have never seen a question closed or downvoted because it was not challenging enough. Why did you give this advice?
    – user9455968
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:58
  • @LutzHorn You're free to look up how long I'm active on the site. And I admit of posting a bunch of comments with "that is explained in the manual here" with a link to then close the question. As I'm supposed to. But even though I solved the problem and moderated correctly, those users did not feel welcome at all.
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:04
  • Strange. But I can think of no way users who think this help is unfriendly can be helped at all.
    – user9455968
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:07
  • As explained in the most downvoted answer up to now, Stackoverflow is not completely disconnected from the rest of the internet. If you're used to other fora (eg community fora of RStudio, Waves, Ableton, ProTools, Docker and even Microsoft) where they don't close your question with a link to the manual, then it doesn't feel welcoming at all.
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:12
  • 3
    So you send your student here and instead of explaining our quality standards, why they exist and how everybody benefits from them, you basically go 'Stack is a big evil place full of malicious, atrocious people'. And then I wonder why most users to whom I explain stuff jump back that hard.... No wonder, if they were sent here with that kind of expectation :/
    – Patrice
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 23:30
  • 2
    @Patrice I explain them what it is, why it is a good resource, how to use it, and to be prepared to be told all of that again in less kind words. Did I lie?
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:49
  • Not at all. From your phrasing I just wasnt sure if you highlighted the positives or just scared your students about SO. I am all for setting proper expectations. Both negative and positive
    – Patrice
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:55
  • 2
    I myself have been closing a ton of questions with a comment "You find the answer to your question in the manual [here](some link to the manual)". Closing questions with the reasoning that the answer can be found somewhere else on the internet (but not on Stack overflow) has never been acceptable. Why would you do such a thing?
    – user4639281
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 15:30
  • 1
    @TinyGiant eg point 2 of following reasons for qustions being off-topic : stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic . I never said that "it's in the manual" was a reason to close. It was a way of not only saying "does not fit SO" but also giving some pointer to ... well, the manual.
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 8:11
  • @joris that close reason is only for debugging questions which can not be reproduced or those that were caused by typographical errors. I sure hope you're not using that reason to close questions which do not fit that very exact criteria. More than anything I have a problem with the lackadaisical manner in which some people close questions that they simply don't like but actually aren't off topic at all. Now you could be doing that, or you could just be careless about how you're saying that you're applying close reasons, but really both are bad.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:57
  • 1
    @TinyGiant of my 251 post flags, 4 were declined and 6 disputed. So I take it I'm closing questions for the right reasons, and take the time to point those people to actual useful information. Duplicate posts are another reason. When they say "but this isn't the same" and it is, again I point them to the relevant information. In any case, my point was that legit closing and pointing to documentation can be taken as offensive by some people.
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 14:01
  • 1
    @Joris you have close votes, you lost the ability to cast close flags when you gained the ability to cast close votes. So no you should not take that to mean that you are flagging correctly. What is just as bad as purposefully or unknowingly abusing the closure system, in the first place is speaking about closure in such imprecise terms as you have here. It gives the impression that you don't put much thought into your close votes. That is my point. If you're going to talk about closing posts, talk precisely, otherwise it's just a bunch of handwaving that only serves to confuse matters.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 16:05
  • @TinyGiant yes, you're right. Have a nice day
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 16:34
4

I've experienced it directly, and have had my sincere efforts to help others be taken for granted, and hours of my time tossed aside like garbage.

This was years ago, but there were several questions on the site about to re-order SQL columns as they were stored and defined. This was a problem I wanted to solve, and I had my own very good reasons for doing so.

There were a lot of comments on those questions that said that basically you shouldn't do this, and it was a bad idea, and that you should be explicit in your queries, etc. and no reasonable solutions to the question at hand.

So moving past that negativity and unhelpfulness, I spent a week writing a complicated SQL stored procedure, which would safely rebuild a SQL table and allow you to specify a new column order. I thought it was great and wanted to share it, and help others who might have the same problem.

So I posted the code on the three Stack Overflow questions that I had found earlier. Granted my memory is a little fuzzy since it's been so long, but here's what I remember happening.

Moderators deleted my answers on all three questions because I was cross posting or something, and that I should have only done it on one of them. Okay...

So I picked the most popular question that came up first on Google results, and re-posted my code/answer on that question only.

A moderator deleted my answer because I pasted a giant block of code, and it didn't really qualify as an answer with an explanation. Okay...

I literally made a new WordPress blog, just so I could post my code and make it available as part of my answer, but without having to post a giant block of code.

A moderator deleted my answer because naked links weren't accepted and the code "snippet" needed to be part of the answer.

I threw in the towel... I had thought about making a project on GitHub as that seems to be more accepted by the mods, but by this point I had wasted hours of my time just trying to share/communicate something which should have been simple, and I'd had enough. This was one of the few times in my life where I felt like my right to speak was being infringed upon. I was hurt and I was angry.


Time has passed and I'm no longer angry, and I don't want to be one of those people that only criticize without offering any kind of positive feedback.

Individually each rule does make sense and has good reasons to exist. But when they are applied systemically across the entire site and are treated as "the law" instead of an ideal, it completely ignores the cumulative effects on the user experience. Its inside looking inside. It feels like a bureaucracy that churns through its machinations.

I think you need to start over on the moderator rules, and you need to make it a much simpler set of principles and general guidelines. But most importantly before doing this... change your perspective, and change where you are centering your consciousness.

For the perspective, change it from "How can we protect the site content and its quality?" to "How can we help each individual?". Change it from the inside looking inside, to the outside looking in. Change it from the focus on the content, to the focus the person.

As for centering... I see a lot of mental thoughts processes on the site. This is to be expected since programmers tend to think very logically and linearly, and things are very binary (yes/no, or right/wrong). This works for computers, but not with people. As you work on your new direction, I would ask that you repeatedly make the effort to shift your thoughts from the mental state, to take a deep breath and bring it into the heart. Think about the person instead of the code. If a loved one were asking the question, would you respond differently? Would you be more patient? Do you want to be right and make them wrong? Or do you simply want to help them?

I think if you do this, you may come up with a completely different kind of list. Maybe it will be worthwhile to review the old list and make sure no concern was left unaddressed, but maybe not.

Best of luck to you. Thank you for the site. I hope it continues to serve many for a long time.

24
  • 7
    Spending a week of work time to write an answer (which is long & with a wall of code) isn't right. Cross posting got you in mods crosshairs too.. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:28
  • 12
    If I save one other person 4 hours of work, its worthwhile to me. Sanity is relative. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:40
  • 12
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre I don't see how is it insane. Of course majority of questions are trivial and can be answered in one line, but some are not and require more time and lengthy answer. Or you mean the only sane thing is to pass on non-trivial questions?
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:43
  • 3
    Ah if you're writing an answer for only 1 person, that's also a problem. That's just a piece of advice. I've been there (not spending 4 hours, but spending 1 hour to answer a question, and not even an upvote or accepted, only more questions...). Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:45
  • 21
    I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. It sounds like there simply was a mismatch between what you were doing, and what SO is for. No one argues that a textbook has no value, or that a source browser for the Linux kernel is not helpful to hundreds of thousands of programmers -- but Stack Overflow is not those things. It's very unfortunate that communication broke down and instead of finding out what you were trying to share and letting you know early that SO simply isn't the place to do that sharing, the moderators led you to waste hours trying to squeeze your project into an answer.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:13
  • 7
    So I would say to please look at your experience from another perspective, and understand that your work is valuable and can help others by being on your blog, GitHub, or wherever. And that sometimes it will be appropriate to use an answer to point to it, if there's also a high level introduction and maybe a code snippet (you'll find my library code at this link, it uses a stored procedure and a trigger to blah blah blah. Here is the code you would use to call my library function to solve your problem.).
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:17
  • 8
    But while it's true that SO rules worked against what you tried to do, it's very unlikely that we're going to reconsider the rules from scratch -- we simply aren't trying to be the site for textbooks, or code hosting, so if we made rules from scratch, we'd still make them the best for Q&A, and probably come right back to what we have.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:18
  • 2
    So I hope that even if this one project didn't really line up with what SO does, that you read some of the great questions and answers, learn lots, and save time on other programming issues you face. Because while high-quality Q&A content isn't what everyone needs all of the time, it is the best way to help programmers when they happen to need Q&A.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:19
  • 5
    @Casey: Understood. I'm just saying that most likely the outcome will still be: "You can't do that, here." Which is not at all the same as saying what you are doing is bad. Things can be good and totally worthwhile and still not play well with SO's approach to helping programmers through Q&A.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:31
  • 2
    @MartinJames Taking the time to make a comment whose sole purpose is to belittle someone else: It's somewhat surprising you claim this isn't a problem while actively doing it. Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:28
  • 2
    @TemporalWolf I'm not defending anyone here, but I cannot work out how that comment is in any way belittling. It disagrees with a quote from the post and draws a comparison between two systems in an attempt to prove point. If that comment is a problem then I feel I'm not welcome here because I might end up saying something similar.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 16:21
  • 2
    @TinyGiant Quoting someone's answer (out of context, although that's not strictly relevant) to laugh at it and make a snarky comment: doesn't add anything to the conversation and is dismissive of their answer. Downvoting provides the same contribution. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your last sentence, but it seems like you're saying if that's true then "I feel unwelcome because I can't be myself (which might make others feel unwelcome)"? That's a difficult position to defend in my book. Commented May 21, 2018 at 21:18
  • 2
    @TemporalWolf Quoting a portion of an answer you're commenting under to show disagreement with what you're quoting is... logical? I don't know what other way to put it. Basically you're telling me that if I disagree with something my only option in your version of a fair and welcoming world is that I downvote the answer and stay silent. In my version of a fair and welcoming world all opinions are welcome regardless of whether they agree with me or not. My version of fairness doesn't require anyone to be subjugated or made to feel less than anyone else for it to be "fair".
    – user4639281
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 21:22
  • 2
    @TinyGiant No, I didn't say either of those things. But if I were to respond with "'My version of fairness' - haha, good thing SO isn't yours" that is both dismissive and a gross mischaracterization of what you said. There is a policy already which covers this. I can't call you names just because I don't agree with you, and we won't be more welcoming if we allow that. I don't quite understand if you are saying you think you should be allowed to belittle people or if your sole point is you don't think the source comment is belittling. Commented May 21, 2018 at 21:48
  • 2
    @TemporalWolf I'm saying as I have been saying the whole time that I don't see how the comment you're referring to could possibly be belittling. It's showing disagreement, and it's terse, but there's nothing at all belittling or snarky or even remotely not nice about it. So if that is not nice, then that means that any disagreement that you don't agree with must be not nice. That doesn't seem very welcoming. I could very easily disagree with something in a manner you do not agree with, and would hate to be demonized for having a difference of opinion.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 21:56
2

A great way to gather data to see how the broader user base feels is to take a poll. A properly constructed poll should be quite enlightening.

It was hard to accept some of the (valid) criticism, especially the idea that women and people of color felt particularly unwelcome.

On the above statement, I hope most of us are becoming better aware that non-intentional bias occurs within us all. Improvement requires questioning our own beliefs and thinking critically about our thoughts and behaviors.

I have found that since I have changed my profile from being obviously female, to a gender neutral profile, I have received more up votes on the same types of question and answers. I saw roughly a 200% increase. Are there other factors involved? Perhaps. I do find it interesting.

To end on a positive note, I find this site to be a far better source for insight into technical issues than any other site.

19
  • Didn't they ask about this in this year's census? I remember answering a question about emotion-words people associated with SO... Maybe only some people got it? They also ask demographic data so they'd have correlation data on how gender and race correlate with feelings about SO.
    – Adair
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:18
  • 2
    Perhaps this could be done again and be promoted so more contributors take the survey. I wasn't able to find the section on feeling unwelcome. insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#community Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:37
  • '200% increase' I'm impressed, surprised and disappointed all at once:( Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:50
  • 2
    I guess that, to be sure, you should change your profile back again to see if the correlation is valid, but I guess asking you to lose a pile of rep to prove a point is going too far:) Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:58
  • 2
    I so regret so many years ago picking a gender identified name and avatar. That people are surprised by your experience is really kind of shocking since it's well known and people often suggest taking a neutral or male identified name if you are on technology sites or in FOSS projects and it is widely discussed (and has been for many years).
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 1:39
  • Ok, with some screen names it is fairly obvious what the (presented) gender is, but I'm having trouble figuring out how anyone would know whether user1234567 was or wasn't a person of color (or their gender)!? Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 2:21
  • Honestly I have seen females get more upvotes than males (which is not bad). Also there are females with high rep: stackoverflow.com/users/62082/michelle-tilley stackoverflow.com/users/2963652/nicael?tab=profile Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 6:36
  • 6
    @PeterHaddad Actually I don't like this, I don't like discrimination negatively or positively. If a woman get more or less upvote because she is a woman is both a problem.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 7:37
  • 9
    "I have found that since I have changed my profile from being obviously female, to a gender neutral profile, I have received more up votes on the same types of question and answers. I saw roughly a 200% increase. Are there other factors involved? Perhaps. I do find it interesting.", don't take this as a "no your wrong it's because of this". Maybe you become better to make question/answer ? I was myself not very good at it in the beginning, and when I look my old answer, I clearly see that I become better.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 7:39
  • 8
    "I saw roughly a 200% increase" - correlation != causation.
    – ljedrz
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 8:58
  • 1
    @JohnHascall I think you are mixing two different issues. One is when (as for you) something like name that is clearly gender associated. You could be female but most people would guess you are male based on your name. That is something related to deliberate actions that some people have described and also to less deliberate things such as making assumptions about your skill level and interests. For users with neutral names the issue is more about atmosphere and culture. And I totally know that if you are in the 90% it's very hard to imagine what it's like to be in the 10%.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:43
  • 1
    For example notice how immediately multiple jump in to question the experience of @NullԀʇɹ92065 and upvote comments questioning her experience. As soon as they hear she's female. Yes there are also a couple of sympathetic comments. But women all day long at work also have this experience of having their knowledge and competency questioned (lots of research on interruptions, language used, not getting credit, etc if you are willing to look for it). Then she comes here and gets the same. Why deal with that? Not pleasant. Hence SO has trouble retaining women and others.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:44
  • 1
    Personally, I don't go read user profiles every time I look at a post, so I'm not sure how big a difference that makes.
    – Passer By
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 12:05
  • 1
    @Elin "As soon as they hear she's female"? This is groundless.
    – ljedrz
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 12:06
  • 1
    @ljedrz Anecdotal evidence is still evidence. Sometimes it is the best we are able to offer.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 13:15
-17

I don't have hard data to provide, so I don't have an answer to the question as asked. But I feel it's worth posting an answer which challenges the premise of the question (and many of the commenters).

The notion of "too much negativity" isn't necessarily about percentages. I believe the message of the blog post is, essentially, "the staff is getting enough complaints that we know it's a problem". In other words, it's about reaching some critical mass, not about percentage of total.

And I'm sure some of the detractors of the blog post's message will then simply ask "fine, it's not a percentage, so what's the absolute number of snarky comments (or condescending users, or whatever) which constitutes a critical mass?". But that again misses the point. If there is some magic number, clearly the staff feels that we've already crossed it, and by a healthy margin, otherwise they wouldn't bother to make a new initiative that's intended to be even bigger than the several previous efforts to make this place more welcoming.

If someone doesn't think SO is an unwelcoming place, then there is no amount of data that will convince them otherwise. If the staff says "we got n complaints, and we feel that's too many", the detractor can simply say "that's bullshit, if you don't have at least 2n complaints, coming from at least m% of all users, then you have no valid basis for your conclusion". Well, that's a value judgment. How can you argue for or against that?

Let me offer the blog post's detractors a counter-question: What concrete numbers would satisfy you that SO is unwelcoming, or prove that SO in fact doesn't have the problem claimed by the blog post? And what's your basis for choosing those specific numbers?

7
  • 5
    What concrete numbers would satisfy you that SO is unwelcoming, or prove that SO in fact doesn't have the problem claimed by the blog post? ..... I would say, is SO growing or not? Use that as a basis. Is there an increasing number of quality questions and quality answers and what are the viewing and participation stats of those? Use those numbers, not the count of complaints.
    – Stewart
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:30
  • @ayhan "That doesn't say anything about how welcoming SO is though." Yes it does. It says exactly that. The more welcoming SO is, the more it will grow. I think that's so obvious as to be self-evident. People coming in == people being welcomed.
    – Stewart
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:49
  • @ayhan The number of questions asked and answered each day, and how many views and votes those questions get is something we can measure, objectively. The rate of asking and answering can go up or down, regardless of number of user accounts. In fact, the number of new questions could (in theory) flatline - which would be a disaster and really would indicate extreme unwelcoming-ness. But if this period 10 questions were asked, and next period 20 questions were asked, then by some measure, it has become twice as welcoming.
    – Stewart
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:59
  • @ayhan In the second period the site is more welcoming than the first period. There is no absolute measure of absolute welcoming-ness. But you can improve on it or not. Meanwhile, I'm not tracking where you got the number 40 from. Not following the "returned back" concept you have there.
    – Stewart
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:15
  • 1
    'Returning users' is not a good metric either. I refer to this comment from a spammer: 'do you understand I have thousand old accounts at my disposal? ', and also suggest that you investigate how many users routinely use one-question burner accounts, knowing very well that those accounts will be regularly suspended/deleted because of bad questions. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:50
  • 16
    This is nonsense. We get a large percentage of VLQ posts every few months from students who want us to do their homework. Those questions rightfully get closed, and that makes us biased against students. Many of those closed questions are from posters in India (understandably so, because of population density), and that magically makes us biased against askers from India. Someone posts a VLQ with a feminine name and avatar, it gets closed, and we suddenly have a gender bias. What's next? A close vote for a bad question from someone with a dog avatar and a PETA boycott of the site?
    – Ken White
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 1:38
  • 8
    So, the problem is with too many complaints on meta? OK, I could fix that by posting a meta complaint every time I receive comments/question that I feel are insulting. Unfortunately, they would all be duplicates, so I don't do that. Instead, I get to watch as thuse who cannot cope with downvotes continually pummel meta with exactly the same 'unfair voting and hostile comments' posts, usually with no actual examples. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:59
-30

Compared to other websites the moderation is swift and harsh, or appears so to noobs who see little to no control on other Q&A or discussion media.

Recently a question was put on hold (and eventually deleted) on one of sister sites for providing a 'links to external sites', which even never is mentioned in the site rules. I have not heard such a restriction in decades, since the late nineties. Of course, there isn't any ombudsman or way to appeal the decision. When I started to dispute appropriateness of external links in comments, somebody even suggested to ban the user.

I understand that moderator was doing her best to improve quality of questions, yet some could overdo, so beginners, not accustomed to such treatment feel unhappy and unwelcomed. By now I am used to Stack Overflow rules, yet vaguely remember being annoyed by moderation when I started (even if deserved).

9
  • 3
    I don't know what sister site you're talking about (and your profile lists no accounts on other SE network sites), but Stack Overflow doesn't have any rule against linking to external sites, and I doubt any site on the SE network has such a rule. There is a rule on SO against questions seeking recommendations of off-site resources, and many SE sites have similar rules against recommendation questions. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:23
  • It is an example of noob confusion on a strictly moderated by community site. I have been on SO long time so moderation so I learned to behave and moderators decisions no longer surprise me. The mentioned sister site has no rules on seeking off-site resource recommendations.
    – Serge
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:29
  • That site actually recommends to include the results of your preliminary research, so I included few citations and links.
    – Serge
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:44
  • Luckily SO allows one to hide the list of accounts. Go to profile setting hide
    – Serge
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:54
  • 4
    @Serge: SE sites effectively disallow recommendation questions by default with only a few sites making an effort to carve out exceptions. SE sites in general also frown on posts that can't stand alone, but rely crucially on external links for essential parts of the post (an answer that does nothing but link to a blog post, a question that asks about debugging the CSS on a live site without including all the CSS inline). If it's a case of including crucial context only in linked pages, I can see why that might be confusing, but any ideas how to clarify that more? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:31
  • Ok, then I would say for noobs and regular uses the rules are difficult to figure out. The question was posted alone, to answer some comments I revealed my previous research results with references. Question was however deleted for referencing external resources (as a spam).
    – Serge
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 2:58
  • 4
    This describes much of the cause of the current rethorics very well. Which is probably the reason it got downvoted so much.
    – Joris Meys
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:09
  • "Recently a question was put on hold (and eventually deleted) on one of sister sites for providing a 'links to external sites', which even never is mentioned in the site rules." No, it was put on hold because the question contained an external link to code, instead of including the necessary [mre] in the question itself. This is explained repeatedly in the site policy - see that link; see the "Help others reproduce the problem" section of How to Ask; see any number of questions on Meta (e.g.). Commented Jun 17, 2023 at 9:23
  • 1
    "Of course, there isn't any ombudsman or way to appeal the decision." Yes, there is. You can edit the question to resolve the problem and mark the change as fixing the problem (to put it into a queue for consideration); you can (as a third party with sufficient reputation) just come along and cast a reopen vote; or you can post about it on Meta. Commented Jun 17, 2023 at 9:24

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