111

I'm concerned about the most recent blog post Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change.. I worry about seeing an outright blog post telling me that there is something wrong and then not backing it up with community discussion.

I think it is poor form to outright tell a community that they are treating new users poorly without first posing the question "Is the community treating new users poorly?" and then letting the community voice its point of view.

I do not want to discuss whether or not the blog post is actually correct in its assumption. The scope of this post is merely to state that you are doing your community a disservice by putting words in its mouth.

This goes hand in hand with another very related question: Pair blog announcements with meta questions. However, I think it's even more important that you would get community feedback within a transparent method of communication in this instance because you are drawing a conclusion, not just telling us about a new feature.

I think that your blog post would be even better with a paired Meta post because you can directly discuss voiced opinions within the blog post.

Another thing that is very troubling is the fact that, as of this moment, the comments section of the blog post is disabled. That doesn't foster discussion. How can I tell you how I feel either way if you aren't willing to open a channel of communication?

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    Its the trend now, didn't you know?...Their worried about alienating their revenue stream, even it that means ruining Stack Overflow to suit the na sayers. Let's start catering to more opinions like these.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:11
  • 13
    I have no problem with being welcoming, that should be a given. But the perceived problem is a "two way street".
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:16
  • 7
    'comments section of the blog post is disabled' well, one way of looking at that is that the trolls' mouth is sewn shut. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:28
  • 74
    I'm not sure Mr Blogger you understood Jeff's vision - "the primary confusion, I think, is Stack Overflow not properly explaining itself as "for professionals and enthusiasts". Was never designed for people just starting out, in the same way a community college is a very different place than grades 1-6".
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:31
  • 35
    Another "summer of love" disaster was brewing. Then it happened. Things can't get better when they are bad, it has to get significantly worse. Trumpian style, not being able to get anybody hired to get the job done correctly is the feature, not the bug. I'll vote Hanlon out of office, next opportunity I get. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:34
  • 75
    Indeed ironic... We (the community) aren't welcoming.... But the post telling us we are bad isn't open to feedback... Ain't that a pot/kettle thing a tad?
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:50
  • 30
    The administration keeps pushing this kind of thing without understanding that the most hostile parts of Stack Overflow are deliberate design tradeoffs. Downvotes, question closure, and shunning conversation. Heck, downvotes are distilled negativity, no matter what the official line is on what they mean. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:54
  • 6
    If there is no distilled negativity, how can there be any distilled positivity? Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:56
  • 41
    The link posted in the blog post for the "implicit bias test" does not add anything to the conversation. The test is rigged by conditioning you to associate the terms in the way they wish you to do. e.g.: I have taken Gender-Career twice now and it lets you throw male and career the first 4-5 rounds into the left category and then once career right and once female-career right. Like this your brain will automatically associate the terms with a given side, left or right, not with the other terms on that side. If they switch the test to condition to female-career, the results would shift as well
    – Absent
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:30
  • 26
    I don't want to engage with those people. It's like attending a flat-earth or anti-vaxx convention and trying to argue against with facts, numbers, surveys and peer-reviews. Totally pointless. You may as well just say 'sure', 'yeah', 'OK' to everything said to you, go to the bar and get ratted. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:32
  • 11
    @IvoVidovic yup - it's a 'push' test designed by toy politicians to put you on the wrong side of an a line. Good for lols though:) Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:41
  • 15
    @MartinJames I know :) I just wanted to point it out, because it was used as a reference (or at least as some kind of justification) for the blog post. It is invalid and should be treated as such for the reasons I listed and the reason you listed ;)
    – Absent
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:46
  • 13
    Why are everybody so worked up?, lets turn it around and ask for the new "Ask question" interface which improves to communicate exceptions that community have before posting. I would bet that one of the core problems for "snarky" comments are bad questions, ok you should not be snarky, but to keep you in check I will try to give you good questions. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:21
  • 6
    Show of hands if you're in a minority group on SO and commented on this Q/A....
    – rene
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:06
  • 50
    @rene What does "a minority group on SO" even mean? Ada programmers?
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:29

9 Answers 9

106

I think it is poor form to outright tell a community that they are treating new users poorly without first posing the question "Is the community treating new users poorly?" and then letting the community voice it's point of view.

The community has voiced their view. Starting on the second day of Stack Overflow's public beta...

...and then again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...
...and again...

(omitted: easily 20x more meta posts on this same topic)

...so... Maybe after almost 10 years of the community telling us there's a problem, it's time that the folks here at Stack Overflow Worldwide Enterprises Inc. took our fingers out of our ears and really listened?

That's how I read this blog post anyway. Not someone standing on their soapbox waving a top-hat & claiming that their new patent medicine would cure all that ails us... But rather, that it was about time we stopped pretending that everything is hunky-dory and came, hat in hand, to humbly ask for help fixing things.

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    Can we counter this with opposite "again" links? There is not nearly enough room. When you've been only looking at the ass-end of SO, everything starts to look like ass. SO employees have been doing ass for entirely too long. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:40
  • 7
    Thank you for taking the time to do what I should have done.
    – user736893
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:43
  • 10
    @HansPassant I don't think that Shog9 is claiming that SO is 100% evil. I think that arguing about the precise percentage of activity on SO that is "bad" is a distraction from the more productive avenue of thinking about ways that we could reduce the "bad" stuff without significantly sacrificing the things that make SO great.
    – joran
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:37
  • 23
    @HansPassant If you joined a group of 100 people and at your first meeting 5 started shouting rude things at you while the other 95 stood by, would you leave that meeting with a positive impression of the group? Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:34
  • 11
    I can't claim to be entirely certain of what Hans was getting at with his colorful metaphor, @joran... But there's definitely something to it. It gets really tiring after a while seeing the worst that humanity has to offer up, whether that's crappy questions or crappy responses to questions. At Stack Overflow's scale, any noticeable percent equals a heck of a lot of unpleasant scenery; there's gotta be a better approach.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:05
  • 11
    You're not wrong, @Increasingly... But as a word of caution: you can get into the weeds pretty fast with that analogy. Even if we achieved some crazy "five nines" level of, uh, not being shouted at... That'd still be 24 questions a year on Stack Overflow. 24 visible questions, questions that are supposed to stick around and be found by future readers. When you take out frustration on an asker, you're not just giving that one person a hard time... You're leaving a turd for every person with that question in the future to step over, forever. That's the where the real damage racks up.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:12
  • 37
    @Shog9: "24 visible questions, questions that are supposed to stick around and be found by future readers." No, that's 24 garbage questions that should not have been asked, have no useful answers, and ought to be cleaned up by the Roomba long before anybody from Google stumbles across them. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 5:32
  • 9
    @Shog9 I agree that newcomers experience SO as a hostile or elitist environment. I myself experienced it that way when I first started coming here and there is plenty discussion on this as you've show. I don't, however, understand how this has anything to do with political/social bias, as the blog immediately asserts in the first paragraph, and encourages me to reflect on in closing. Does the management really believe that their own subconscious biases against women and ethnic minorities somehow results in a worse user experience on SO? How? What metrics is this based on?
    – EENN
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:15
  • 1
    @Shog9 Now write an identical "and again" list for every time someone from the SO company says "From now on we'll focus on fixing the core Q&A product". It's easy for users to whine and it is easy for SO to say we'll fix it.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:35
  • 4
    I can't speak for management, @lawyerson - and I definitely shouldn't be trying to speak for women or any ethnic groups. I linked to a hefty sample of previous discussions because I believe the only sensible approach here is for the folks encountering problems on SO to talk about it themselves, with the rest of the folks using, building, and in some cases leaving SO - this isn't a problem that will be solved by broad generalizations or cute user stories, it's a thousand little problems that we've already discussed and probably already seen solutions proposed for but haven't acted on.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:11
  • 8
    You're quite right, @lundin; talk is cheap. So I wouldn't get too excited about a blog post, much less an answer on a meta discussion about a blog post. Either there'll be substantive changes actually built this time, or... This is all just a waste. Vast, vast majority of the folks who make up Stack Overflow will never read a word of this.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:16
  • 11
    It's somewhat disheartening to see the predominant response is "I don't do it/see it/see how it could be so, so it must not be possible/happening". Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 23:10
  • 2
    See my comment to Increasingly, above, @Houseman. One of the most common mistakes I see is assuming that something has to be widespread in order to be damaging; indeed, this assumption has slowed work on both accessibility and quality improvements in the past, as it's trivially easy to pick out a hefty sample of posts from Stack Overflow that show neither problem. If someone doesn't want to admit a problem exists, they'll claim there's no data; when you show them data, they'll claim it isn't sufficiently severe. However... Data can be quite useful in defining the problem.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 1:39
  • 3
    I'm a bit skeptical, @Houseman. While we commissioned a study on this last year, the vast majority of people within the company haven't seen the results - until the analysis and verification are complete, we're working from the same (public) information as everyone else. Second, there is public information: Jon linked to the survey in his answer, but I'm far more inclined to trust the evaluations of the folks who've used these sites for many years now, several of which you can find linked above. Again, all that tells us is that there is a problem; it doesn't define it or provide a solution.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 1:57
  • 3
    It's 10/day and you get more with use, @adrienne - so don't be stash with 'em
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:56
51

I think it is poor form to outright tell a community that they are treating new users poorly without first posing the question "Is the community treating new users poorly?" and then letting the community voice it's point of view.

Self-policing and self-judgment can only take you so far, though. We think we're good and doing the right thing and that it's everyone else that's hostile towards us.

Easy enough to fall in that trap.

So uh, should we ask ourselves how we're doing? We're probably going to think that this is some kind of hoax or some sort of nonsense or weird statistic and move on with our day and completely miss the message that is trying to be conveyed.


I've had some thoughts brewing on this for a while now - ever since I (very) rudely told someone off of the platform - and ever since someone else had posted a Tweet in regards to them wanting to leave the platform. With not much else on my plate I might actually have a shot at compressing that into some kind of coherent post in a few days.

Let's start with the community. We genuinely feel like we get a negative rap since all we want to do is be sure that we can understand you. Problem is...that "help me understand you" comes across in all kinds of forms.

  • Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable Example ("MCVE")
  • "What is the problem?"
  • "Why'd you do it like this?"
  • "What is your actual question?"

Granted, some of these things are valid concerns and have valid places in a Q&A site like this. Many of these things are blindly misused on a minute-by-minute basis in that we often lose the true purpose behind these words. Take "MCVE" for example. That's effectively duckspeak for "show me your code, the error and the data you're feeding it." Problem is, it's still duckspeak - we fall into the trap of demanding MCVEs on questions that may not even warrant it that we're unwittingly and unknowingly pushing away askers by exacting impossible standards upon them.

Now, I did say that those above were valid concerns, and MCVE is no exception. But this is the reason that talking about things like politeness and rudeness should happen; we don't really know if we're being rude or not when we ask for those things, and we can't really accept that we actually might be.


Another thing that is very troubling is the fact that, as of this moment, the comments section of the blog post is disabled. That doesn't foster discussion. How can I tell you how I feel either way if you aren't willing to open a channel of communication?

How would you like to moderate that?

You've gotta delete both extreme views; the people who call us "jerks", "snobs", and all other manner of foul things, as well as the people who call others "rep whores", "help vampires", and all other manner of foul things.

Then you have to actually filter the signal from the other noise. The noise of "yes, I agree" or "no, I disagree" doesn't actually motivate a solution. It doesn't say or describe anything about self-reflection. It doesn't even begin to broach what the problem (or problems) are.

Of the handful of responses that you'd get which do do that, they're buried so deep in the noise that it's impossible for their message to actually reach a broader audience.

For that, let's just leverage Meta.

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    Every time we forget to disable blog comments, I'm reminded of how well self-moderation works here on meta... And how well it doesn't work in any of the blog comment systems we've tried. Forget extremists yelling at each other; even getting rid of spam is a slog. To say nothing of the horror-show that was Disqus's non-anonymous voting system for the period when we used that.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:19
  • 10
    Then delete the comments section of the blog outright and automatically direct to the related/paired meta post.
    – zero298
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:24
  • 21
    @zero298: I quite like the idea of not creating an automatic Meta post for every blog post that Stack Overflow puts out. It forces whomever is upset enough about the contents of the blog post to come here and form their ideas well enough so that they can have their input/feedback heard. In a way it increases the barrier to engage, too; you can be upset and have a valid opinion, but you do have to be sure that it's expressed constructively, too.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:25
  • Unless the "be nice" policy also applies to blog post comments, moderators wouldn't actually have to delete every petty insult
    – user773737
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 1:30
  • 5
    @Houseman: But then what's the point? Sure, you can open it up for YouTube-style commentary, but do you really gain anything, compared to not having comments at all?
    – Kevin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 4:44
  • 2
    Yes, but what are you doing to stop the never ending flood of complete and utter garbage questions? If people feel unwelcome, perhaps they should look at the trash that they started throwing around first.
    – JK.
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 5:09
  • 6
    @JK.: Thanks for demonstrating my point more succinctly in two sentences as opposed to my several paragraphs.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 5:37
  • 4
    I don't think most experienced users here think that "it's everyone else that's hostile towards us". SO puts all of its focus for years into casting a wider net, and making things look more friendly, rather than teaching new users how to use the site effectively. Every "welcomingness" initiative turns out to be more about misleading new users into thinking SO is easy and fun with no learning curve. It's not the new users' fault that they ask bad questions. Making established users nicer won't fix that; at best it'll mean people go away thinking "SO is useless" instead of "SO is mean"
    – abarnert
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:39
  • 1
    "Take "MCVE" for example.", I watching a lot of C question and I can say without mistake that 99% of question need a MCVE, it's maybe the thing I write the must in my life on SO. [mcve] is my only way to answer correctly to all question that come on C tag.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:50
  • 1
    The need to turn off comments on topics like this is, I am sure, something that has been learned over the years. Sure people will make these similar style comments on meta but it's not the author who has to cope with them and have them forever associated with their post. I find it weird that people who are engineers and programmers can't think through the logic that asking the people in "the community" is not an effective way to find out how people "not in the community" experience things. That said, it is an effective question for other purposes if it encourages genuine self-reflection.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:20
34

I think a lot of emotions went in here and we kinda sorta maybe forgot to give you a direct answer to your question. I mean hey, not sure what you expected, it's not like we work for a Q&A site or anything :P

Directly, we disabled comments on the blog post because WordPress comments are horribad for protracted discussions.

WP comments are great for "Hey, great post, my kid does that too. But how did you pick the handcuffs so quickly?" or something like that. For discussion, especially when comments are emotionally charged and might be removed, it's not ideal.

The poor threading, lack of comprehensive moderation tools, lack of troll protection from anything other than Akisemet and our load balancers (we don't like doing low-level blocks) and a bunch of other reasons led us to decide that enabling comments would be much more pain than explaining why we didn't enable comments.

I'm going out on a limb to say we were right there.

We didn't open up a general meta post because we worried it might be too cathartic.

We have had some dizzying discussions about this topic internally, and they resulted in a lot of emotion coming out. And that's with only the reach of one company. Thinking of thousands pouring into it, well, that's just downright scary.

Opening up a single channel for that much emotion at one place and one time would have been the big bang of all sh*t shows

We included a call to action for people that wanted to get involved. We should have done more to invite anyone that wanted to talk about it to open a separate meta post so that we could (1) take all of that emotion in small measured doses (we are human!) and (2) make sure the best person from the company was able to answer. In some cases Jay would be in a better position to talk about things than Me or Shog. In other cases, I think it would be better for you to hear from someone that worked here who also experienced discrimination and marginalization at work (here, or somewhere else).

Anyone can open a meta post about the blog post if they want to talk about something.

We're going to ask that you have a specific point to talk about (raw unabashed hate isn't useful anywhere), and we'll answer it, honestly. We'll also do our best to help make sure the best person from the company answers you, along with people in the community.

Concluding:

We weren't shutting down communication at all. I made that call (and the mistake of not being more direct in asking people to post here) because of recent experiences, and I didn't want you going through what we just learned the hard way which is when people actually do wake up to what's going on around them, it tends to hurt pretty damn badly.

Thanks for holding us to that, and sorry that we forgot to answer your question.

2
  • 3
    Thanks for posting this. I think you have a big advantage in actually having virtual face to face discussions about this. And of course you can get everyone on line, where as here lots will just choose to disengage knowing that they will be downvoted if they express an idea contrary to the crowd. And the issue of disengagement is the point in terms of the site.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:30
  • 7
    @user1114 I think, with it being fresh in mind, I made it sound worse than it probably was. And while internal discussions and (yes, often struggles) were part of this, the main motivating factor was the fact that people keep telling us a problem and we keep looking and not seeing anything and then all of a sudden, well, we did, and it wasn't nice to look at.
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:54
15

We kinda already asked:

Survey results

The survey asked each respondent one of 4 different questions:

  1. In your opinion, what is the most annoying thing about Stack Overflow?
  2. In your opinion, what is the worst thing about Stack Overflow?
  3. In your opinion, what is the best thing about Stack Overflow?
  4. In your opinion, what is the most exciting thing about Stack Overflow?

The first two are considered negative questions and the last two are considered positive. Then we counted the number of times each word was used by whether the prompt was positive or negative. Then we compared the frequency of each word in each bin relative to the other. Since "annoying" was in one of the negative prompts, it should be no surprise it's disproportionately common in the free-form responses to negative questions. On the other hand, "sharing" wasn't primed, so that's legitimately a word people positively associated with Stack Overflow. We can see that people who got one of the negative prompts seem to see the following as negative aspects of the site:

  • low
  • poorly
  • duplicate
  • downvotes
  • homework
  • comment
  • outdated
  • harsh

Meanwhile, these words were only used positively between 1/8th and 1/64th as frequently as negatively. (So us downvote fans know what to do if we get a positive version of the question next year.) Some of these words are likely complaints from users who don't know how the sausage is made. And some of these words are from people who know only too well. So we've known about some of the problems with the site for several months now because we asked those questions.

It's exciting that "nothing" is a word people often used in response to the negative prompts. We'd probably need to do some more digging, but I think it means many respondents are happy with the Stack Overflow experience. Still, it's data like this that helps us figure out what to work on next.

[A few people have mentioned that this graph is misleading or are skeptical of the analysis. We will be releasing the 2018 data set soon as we have with previous years. When that happens, you can do your own analysis. Sometime in December we ask for suggestions about what questions we can ask in the next survey. Please let us know how we can improve on this approach. Note that if we used a linear X-axis, the differences between these words would appear even more extreme.]

We're also gathering more information right now. (Scroll to the bottom of the blog post for the link.)

Sometimes we do ask on meta at the same time as we post on the blog. That's probably a good idea in general.

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    I love that someone downvoted this post less than 5 seconds after it was posted. They're just sitting here waiting to "fight the man!"
    – user736893
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:34
  • 3
    So.. the numbers from your poll are reasonably balanced, then. Fine:) Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:52
  • 15
    Surely you must be aware that there are a significant number of SO users that would pick yellow for the "downvotes" and "comments" bar. Okay, you're not and you just picked your own preferences. Do consider adding "babies", "butterflies", "flowers" to make it look better. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:54
  • 3
    @HansPassant: I think you mean "ponies". I like downvotes too. But comments? Uuuuugh.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:00
  • 33
    This graph doesn't mean what you're trying to use it to mean. This graph says that people used the words "harsh", "annoying", "downvotes", etc. much more frequently when responding to the negative versions of survey questions. Even a friendly, welcoming site would show that pattern. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:02
  • 4
    @user2357112: That's correct. I didn't mean to say that graph shows we aren't a welcoming site. (In fact, helpful is the most commonly used word to describe the site.) My point is that we are asking for feedback in all sorts of ways.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:07
  • 10
    You are not taking my comment seriously. Okay, I started it, hoping that the ridiculousness of it would make some kind of impression. Mission failed. I'm seriously pissed off at you not taking anything I say seriously. You can chase me away, easily, by demonstrating your complete irreverence at my ability to help SO users, 16 thousand times already. Who needs me? Wait ... who needs you? Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:10
  • 6
    Counterpointing "uuuuugh" vs "I really do like it" is exaggeration that you started, not me. For crissake, do what you think instead of what the bosses tell you to do. Get a spine, that is what we need in CMs. You are the only defense between the SO users and the investors, saying "hell no!" needs to come from you. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:33
  • 4
    @HansPassant: Maybe it would help if you told me what you think the investors want to do?
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:40
  • 6
    @HansPassant: Not once has an investor told me to do anything here. I've talked with my bosses several times this week and they didn't tell me to do anything either. I'm interested in what you are afraid we are being told. But first, I'm going to take a walk to clear my head. It's been quite a day on meta and chat. Thank goodness I'm avoiding Twitter. :-(
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:53
  • 28
    @JonEricson So the issue is that SE is making it one of their primary concerns that people providing low quality contributions don't enjoy their experiences with the site, because the site's quality control mechanisms prevent them from getting what the want. SE appears to be focusing on making those people happier, at the expense of the site's quality. Whether that's a primary focus because SE's investors are demanding it (as Hans is assuming), or because you have independently decided to focus on that, is frankly irrelevant to me.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:15
  • 42
    I'd much rather the site focus its efforts on how to improve site quality; how to ensure that fewer bad questions are asked, that bad questions are more quickly and easily moderated, and that quality content is able to be as visible as possible. But SE isn't focusing on those things. It's attempting to do the exact opposite.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:15
  • 11
    @JonEricson, so wouldn't it have been better to post "We the company screwed up and we're going to fix the software", rather than launching into feels, unconscious bias and 'community problems'? I mean, didn't your parents teach you not to poke ants' nests when you were kids?
    – Benjol
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:32
  • 4
    @JonEricson Your response is inadequate. The graph is prima facie incomprehensible, and does not of itself constitute evidence of any kind. You don't seem to have added anything factual to my speculation about a factor of 2048, and you have basically avoided my question about why the X axis is non-linear, a distortion which alone accounts for the bias we see in the blog post being complained of. What is a 'positive' and a 'negative' 'reaction', and what are they reacting to, and where do these reactions come from, and how were they evaluated, and what is their statistical significance?
    – user207421
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 10:15
  • 4
    I think the real fear that Jay's post stirred up is that SO is now beginning to make policy decisions based on ideology that is no longer based in reality and is using bad, pseudo, or no scientific methodology to justify its actions. The data you've just presented is a perfect example. If it were engineered to be misleading and manipulative I would call it brilliant because it succeeds in that goal spectacularly, but as actual scientific data it says almost nothing and is a complete non-sequitur in the context of your answer here.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 11:07
8

I think this blog post is being misinterpreted by some.

I think it's more saying that people feel marginalized. It doesn't necessarily say that people are being marginalized. What's actually happening is people are being condescending, rude, and/or sarcastic in their responses on SO and when you're someone that is already predisposed to being marginalized due to your race/religion/location/gender/political stance or even lack of rep, you're more likely to assume that you're being treated differently.

Is it so wrong to try to find some solution to this? To maybe soften the sharp language some users (myself included) use to respond to questions/answers?

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  • 84
    The post opens by saying that some people feel bad, and sure, that's fine. The problem is how it ends, and the calls to action it suggests. When it says that it's a bad thing that poorly researched questions get downvoted, and that we can't expect people to actually do their research before asking a question, that's a big problem. When it says that we need to be adding more noise and making the site more informal, rather than being professional and formal, that's not taking steps in the right direction.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:02
  • 6
    @Servy ^^THIS^^
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:03
  • 3
    i mean, i disagree with those changes in particular too, but it doesn't ruin the entire discussion. I'm not going to stop downvoting low quality posts.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:04
  • 13
    @KevinB Well I mean it's not exactly news that people providing low quality content don't like the site. People say that all the time. Shog has linked to plenty of such posts. The problem isn't that nobody has ever discussed the fact that people providing low quality contributions don't like the site, or that they don't feel welcome, it's that no one knows of any particularly good solutions for addressing that problem without compromising the quality of the site. The only really new discussion points from that post are those highly problematic suggestions.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:08
  • 21
    @KevinB I see the problem as more fundamental than that. The people making these types of complainants aren't upset because they don't understand that a downvote means that someone thinks their question is not a quality question, they're upset because they don't care about the quality of their question and expect an answer regardless of the question's merits. They want to get an answer and to not spend more time and effort improving their question. We want the opposite. It's not a communication problem (in such instances). (There are other problems that are communication problems.)
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:10
  • 2
    if people are unwilling to read, we can't help them. those are out of our control unfortunately. Doesn't mean we can't focus on those who are.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:11
  • 14
    But saying things like "It makes me sad when duplicates get downvoted....users are not lazy!....it takes more effort to post than search" Downvotes make you sad? Users, including myself are frequently lazy. And it does not take more effort to post, because searching requires understanding your question enough to recognize which of the search results is relevant, and then understanding the answer enough to apply it to your question.
    – user2638618
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 1:54
  • 7
    @Servy You seem very certain about what SE is planning to do before they've really even begun. Most of the suggestions in that blog post were quite vague, and it seemed clear the intent is not to increase "niceness" at the expense of question quality. I agree with you that down votes and closing Qs are important moderation tools, but I'm willing to entertain ways they could be handled to reduce rudeness. That's the message I got from the post, anyway, and I'm willing to wait and see specific proposals before getting all worked up.
    – joran
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 3:56
  • 4
    @joran: If SE was planning on making improvements to new-user-friendliness that still kept quality high, they wouldn't need a blog post to say "the way we've been doing things is fundamentally wrong", since that basic goal has been a perennial topic of highly-voted posts on Meta. Several of the past initiatives mentioned in the blog that this new project is supposed to build on, however, have tended to reduce quality and make it harder to moderate, in the name of making SO nicer (especially the Summer of Love). Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:30
  • 13
    @joran: So, speaking as someone who's put a lot of effort into making things better for new users, individually and as a whole, it's hard to read the post as anything other than a further turning of the back on SO's dedicated user-moderators and their philosophy, which was once SO's philosophy. If it was just "hey, let's come up with some great ways to streamline the asking experience and make the necessary bits more obvious!" I would be 100% down with that. But it isn't. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:33
  • 3
    @joran You say that downvoting and closing questions is important and yet right in the blog they say that they're sad when a poorly researched question gets downvoted, or to hear people say that a low quality question shouldn't be answered. Now how they plan to change those things is indeed vague, but that's being rather explicit about wanting to change exactly the things you've said they don't want to change.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:56
  • 2
    @joran I don't know what actual changes they're planning to make (because gain, they didn't mention any). The problem is that the goals they mentioned are simply contrary to the mission that the site was created with. The fundamental goals that they're stating they want to accomplish are very problematic in my eyes, and so I'm calling that out. It doesn't matter how they go about accomplishing those goals.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:26
  • 8
    @joran It's suggesting that people asking questions shouldn't be expected to do their research, and that we want people to be answering low quality questions. Both of those things strongly conflict with the core mission of the site as being a place where questions are expected to be of high quality, and be well researched.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:42
  • 4
    @Servy To my point about our fundamental disagreement here, I don't read that post as saying either of those two things. And regardless, what's written in one blog post by one employee doesn't really matter in the long run. What matters is what they do. And they haven't done, or even really proposed, anything.
    – joran
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:45
  • 5
    @joran Why would you wait for them to have already make highly problematic changes to tell them that they're suggesting making changes that are problematic? Why wait for detailed, specific proposals for accomplishing a goal to tell them that the goals they've stated they're trying to accomplish are highly problematic? If they didn't want any feedback on their statement that these are the goals they want to work on, they wouldn't have posted it tin the first place.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:49
5

I agree that there is a problem with implementing "Be Nice" (and with this blog, "Be Welcoming") on SO.

But I've taken a turn or three on the review queues and man, it's like drowning. I can see how well-meaning introverts might get a little impatient, sharpish and inclined to snap judgments.

If SO really wants to fix the BN and BW problems then in addition to the soft and squishy task of getting feedback from people they need to write software to automate these goals.

SO has an enormous amount of data. It would be straightforward to train a Natural Language Processing (NLP) net to recognize possible problems in presentation of answers and comments and flag those for attention, possibly in a BN review queue. Open-source the net and the anonymized training data. This is serious machine-learning fun for a number of us out there.

There also needs to be a template that shows up in the answer space with headers or placeholders for the standard criteria we apply to high-quality questions. Not just for newbies, everybody. Make it text in the answer box. Deleting text is easy.

Rather than run batch checks on low quality questions, run checks at the time of submission and give the OP the opportunity to correct the post before posting for realz.

I've got more to say on this subject but I've said this and more before without any visible result. If I see any progress, I'd welcome the opportunity to communicate further.

9
  • 1
    New user question templates are being actively worked on. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 22:37
  • Not sure if reviewing Stackoverflow posts can be automated yet. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 8:39
  • 2
    Unfortunately, NLP's tend to pick up not only the language skills but also the biases of their parents ... uh, datasets. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:18
  • "SO has an enormous amount of data. It would be straightforward to train a Natural Language Processing (NLP) net to recognize possible problems in presentation of answers and comments and flag those for attention" Indeed. They are also welcome to steal our lists, including the 22 entries for definitely (attribution would be nice, though). Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:40
  • @ElisevanLooij link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs41060-017-0088-4.pdf
    – empty
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:59
  • @KevinJohnsrude Sorry, I don't click on off-site download links Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:07
  • @ElisevanLooij then google "Deep learning for detecting inappropriate content in text" by Harish Yenala · Ashish Jhanwar · Manoj K. Chinnakotla · Jay Goyal
    – empty
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:09
  • 1
    Sure, and long before Deep Learning attempts were made to keep the internet clean, one social platform famously shutting down a forum for people with breast cancer. The paper by Yenala c.s. falls into the same trap: "The word niger is an Inappropriate word" which is unfortunate for the citizens of the homonymous republic or those wishing to discuss major rivers. But I was talking about programmers not realizing that what they deem successful DL is a system that mirrors their own attitudes and judgements. Its behaviors appear so natural to them -- the system must be right and just. Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:03
  • @ElisevanLooij if you use supervised learning with the training and validation data composed of all text flagged as rude and then you put the inferences into a "Be Nice" review queue at the same level as our other reviewer queues. I think that would take care of most of your objections. DL isn't a replacement for human judgment, it's an augmentation to enable the handling of huge amounts of data.
    – empty
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:13
-6

I think it is poor form to outright tell a community that they are treating new users poorly without first posing the question "Is the community treating new users poorly?" and then letting the community voice its point of view.

I think it's not so bad. Whenever something is not immediately backed by evidence or kind of self-evident one can safely assume that it is merely an expression of opinion. Jay Hanlon just thought that new users are treated poorly. It doesn't necessarily mean they are.

On the other hand, the community can voice its point of view at any time on meta like it's done here. I don't see that's it's not a level playing field. Honestly, I don't really care much about these blogs.

Personally, I didn't like this blog post very much. In particular, I couldn't imagine how Stack Overflow can be hostile towards people of color; that's a personal property that is not displayed anywhere on the user profiles. I think the initial statement was not very well motivated.

As always, one should praise the good things and downvote the bad things and move on. There are questions of varying quality on Stack Overflow and so it's only fitting that there are blog entries of varying quality too. We should move on; there will be other blog posts.

If anything, we should ask and answer the questions that this blog post misses to ask or answer and discuss them. Feel free to do it.

4
  • 2
    Sure. Just an opinion. For which they seem willing to restart the summer of love....
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 22:03
  • @Patrice The summer of love wasn't particularly successful. It didn't change much, as far as I can see. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 8:35
  • 3
    100%. Which makes it disappointing that they seem to be having a similar mindset to their approach this time around....
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:53
  • @Patrice Maybe they try again because they don't know of anything better? Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:23
-8

At some level, StackOverflow must belong to the people that run it. They help cultivate this community! There's nothing wrong with trusting the people who run the place to know what's best for it.

-49

First off, you don't need to ask if some problems exist... it's clear.

Hey Syria, is there a problem?

Secondly, they didn't need to ask because users like myself have been trying to tell them for years! I, and now I can safely assume others, believe many power users are so focused on reputation and rules that they are no longer here to simply help people. It's almost like they enjoy all the negative behavior outlined in the blog post. That is, shaming askers for not following the rules, searching, etc, and lambasting answerers for encouraging them.

It genuinely makes me sad because SE is such a great resource.

48
  • 27
    There's "behaviour outlined" in the post I just don't see. When has all this "Women bashing" and "Race" come into it? Its the internet people, I can't tell the colour of someone skin by what they type at a keyboard?? The fact, the "problem" has been diluted into this is just mind boggling. It's pretty straightforward, write a well thought out question that clearly explains what you have done, what you need to do and any supporting information as to why it's not working and we will get a long fine. Gender and race have nothing to do with it.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:37
  • 5
    You know, when I drive down the street and someone cuts me off I have two options. 1) I can get pissed and honk and have a bad day, or 2) I can realize I have no idea what is going on in their head or their life. Maybe their mom just died or maybe there actively having a heart attack. The same goes for questions. You don't know who is on the other end of the keyboard. If you suspect they could have easily googled it, take an extra 5 seconds and think of a nice way to say it. That's all I would ask...
    – user736893
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:38
  • 28
    The hypocrisy of this post is overwhelming. Personally insulting and berating people for having the audacity to care about quality standards and not just ignoring serious problems and inappropriate behavior when they see it. Yes, SE is a great resource, and it's not a great resource because everyone ignores quality standards and spends all of their time telling people it's okay to not bother to do a search for their question first because 10 people are waiting in line to Google it for them.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:40
  • 5
    @MartinJames We are not compilers. We are people. The compiler error wasn't sufficient which is why they are here asking you, a person, for help.
    – user736893
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:40
  • 19
    @ScottBeeson When someone makes a dangerous driving maneuver like cutting someone off you honk your horn because it's important for them to realize what they're doing, to make sure they see the car they were cutting off, so that they pay attention to their surroundings. Just ignoring it is making a bad situation worse. Honking is the appropriate reaction in that situation. Likewise, when someone acts inappropriately on SE they need to get appropriate feedback to know that they did something wrong, else they'll just keep doing it.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:44
  • 7
    I tried telling my linker that my father had passed away last week, but it just refused to listen and printed out three pages of unresolved externals anyway. The thing is it's tech site about programming. I don't see any reason to analyse posters as well as their posts, nor do I want to try. WTF is wrong with 'You should have Googled this before posting'? Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:45
  • 34
    @ScottBeeson you do realize that the overwhelming majority of criticisms of the site are for downvotes, close votes, and/or people pointing out a problem with a post without any attitude at all (in that order). Instances of people honestly being rude in comments are quite rare, particularly compared to basically anywhere else on the internet, and are very quickly removed. The problem is the people complaining consider "appropriate feedback" to be hostile, because they don't like being told they didn't do a good job.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:49
  • 21
    @Scott I tried it your way for a bit. For a lot of users, me 'gently explaining what could have gone better' was apparently a worse offense than me spitting in their face. After a bunch of terrible reception (one can only endure being called an a-hole a certain amount of time before giving up... Unless one likes punishment), I grew tired of it.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:53
  • 16
    @Lankymart to quote the actual comment that made me revise my attitude towards explaining myself 'I don't give a sh*t about your quality standard you f&cking idiot, I just need this fixed now. Answer it, FFS' (without the censoring, ofc)
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:57
  • 7
    I must be on a different SO than you guys... when I spend an extra few minutes helping someone I've always had positive feedback.
    – user736893
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 21:57
  • 7
    'When you downvote, comment why' really? That has been gone over more times than I've downvoted 'i++ + ++i' and NPE questions. NO! It starts street-fights, which I lose by either just surrendering or getting suspended. The OP gets suspended too, I have my rep dropped from 21.5k to 1, and the OP opens another account. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:05
  • 6
    I've put too much energy into this. You guys are fighting against "be more welcoming". I'll keep helping people, you guys keep fighting.
    – user736893
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:06
  • 6
    @ScottBeeson ' I'll keep helping people, you guys keep fighting' AKA I'll answer good questions and downvote bad ones, you keep on supplying deadbeat students with free homework answers and free tuition. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:13
  • 37
    @ScottBeeson The blog post isn't saying, "be more welcoming". It's saying that the site is racist, sexist, and that when people don't do their research and ask duplicates we should be answering them instead of downvoting and closing them. The post is basically saying that the site wants to get rid of some of the core values of the site because people that post low quality content don't like it.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:15
  • 7
    @ScottBeeson unfortunately, there are many nore of 'them' than there are of 'us', and they don't have to care or worry much about any 'Be nice' rule with their one-question burner accounts. I have many examples, a couple less offensve ones are: 'I'd ask again using a single tag where you are not going to get zapped by morons who think this question is too broad' and 'Please dont write stupid racist people !'. I have many more real comments, but they would probably be seen as offensive, even as a quote on meta. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:16

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