591

We’ve been there, we’ve done that. I know.

But I have to air a feeling of powerlessness against certain disruptive users, and I think that Stack Overflow should have a better mechanism of mitigating this.

Case in point: the (quickly deleted) question Why do two tasks created after each other generate the same random value? For anyone familiar with the subject matter, the solution is fairly obvious. For people unrelated with it … not so much.

Consequently, after that question was closed as a duplicate, the OP added the following amendment to the (well-asked and reproducible) question:

EDIT:

I don't understand how this is related to "Random String Generator Returning Same String".

He was creating the random instance in the method. I am calling it in completely different Tasks so they should be independent of each other.

This plea for help, however, was completely ignored, and the question deleted – after garnering five downvotes.1 Congratulations. Another unhappy customer.

I thought, once upon a time, that downvotes were reserved for bad questions and deletions for disruptive content. Neither is obviously the case here, and the comments are a masterpiece of condescension.

I have of course flagged both the question and the comments. However, currently, Stack Overflow does not offer me any tools to follow up on the flags, or to argue my case, should they be rejected. And I feel that this gives undue power to bullies, because by default, Stack Overflow sides with them, rather with the mediating party (= the flagger).


1 Downvotes have their place, of course. But if a reasonably well-asked question garners this amount of downvotes in a short time, with an explanation that the OP does not understand, then this feels like abuse.

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    Whether they're justified or not, I don't believe downvotes and close votes can be considered "rude." Comments can be rude, but I would say the ruder comments on that question are yours ("Downvoters, you should feel bad") Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 23:21
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    @David I do think unjustified downvotes are (extremely) rude. What I was referring to, though, was the comments. My comments are a reaction to that. Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 23:23
  • 130
    People here are horrible. Any attempt to draw attention to the fact just results in questions being closed as off topic---even on "meta", typically---because the horrible people have high reputation points and they get to do whatever they please. It's a bad neighborhood. People should just leave if they want to find a good neighborhood.
    – user1052335
    Commented May 6, 2015 at 20:22
  • 69
    I've just deleted a coding solution that took me half a day to solve due to rudeness of people's responses. I've even taken down the open source version that was available on GitHub. People get something for free that is high quality, but you still get abuse. The internet has taught people that they 'deserve' everything for free and high quality. This has now infected a lot of people's attitudes. Thanks for your question. I googled 'rude stackoverflow' and it brought me here.
    – user2098467
    Commented Jan 6, 2016 at 12:14
  • 95
    General comment. I have significant programming experience, and am not some college freshman looking for a freebie answer for their first computer-science machine problem. I recently asked what I felt to be a legit question after taking significant time to research and write the question, and I was immediately bullied (and specifically threatened) by a high-rep user whom I felt wasn't taking the time to reflect upon my question. New experience for me after several years on SO. Not a major problem, but the tone was disconcerting, and depressing. I'll spend less time on SO, as a result. Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 23:39
  • 13
    Upon reflection: this could be a major problem. It might effectively plateau the popularity of the platform. I'd find a way to solve the seemingly-growing bullying problem if I were a significant StackExchange investor or stakeholder and cared about user and market growth. Alas, I've not studied this market, and I possibly (if not probably) speak from ignorance. Commented Feb 28, 2016 at 0:10
  • 67
    Some of the SO high rep users are extremely arrogant. I guess they think our questions are valueless. Why don't they just ignore our questions, instead of saying "I don't know why would you ask xxxxxx?"
    – Jay Wang
    Commented Jun 1, 2016 at 22:31
  • 18
    this wonderful answer by shog9 is very relevant to this topic. If you're in the political party of "stack overflow is too damn rude", then you're basically ready to move out of the big city and to a smaller town. It's just a matter of deciding when you're going to admit it's a you-problem you need to solve.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 12, 2018 at 9:46
  • 6
    The hilarious part is someone walking in the street, and everyone says that this person stinks. And the person swearing that the other people are mad. If there's an alarm, there's some reality behind. I'm not astonished of the actual crisis on SE, it's only a consequence of the culture of rudeness and the self-centredness here. As people prefer to think there is no problem, and it's only in imagination, the site will go though more crisis.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:03
  • 11
    @Quidam 'culture of rudeness and the self-centredness' yes, I agree. It's plain that a large set of users want to misuse the volunteer time of skilled and experienced SO contributors as a free lookup/tuition service. I look forward to your suggestions to rectify the situation. Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 10:21
  • 7
    @ChrisMedina What you call “loaded questions” is a pretty popular educational tool, so I’m not sure your assessment is fair. It doesn’t really matter whether you’re advanced or not, and it’s not always obvious whether a user is advanced anyway. Commented May 11, 2020 at 14:30
  • 3
    @ChrisMedina Ah, but asking leading questions isn’t in itself passive aggressive. That said, obviously I don’t know the situation so I can only make guesses based on your description. Commented May 11, 2020 at 14:35
  • 5
    @Leonard 'for mistyping one letter of a function'... how is that possible in a copy/paste operation? Commented Jul 1, 2020 at 3:12
  • 11
    SO is a Q&A site for professional and enthusiast programmers. It is a very poor place for completely untrained/inexperienced people to get direct tuition:( Commented Jul 1, 2020 at 3:16
  • 5
    @NathanToulbert 'scolded away, tail tucked', sounds a bit like hyperbolae to me but, hey, I could be wrong. I am sure that you have evidence/examples so, please post them before I post yet another pageful of 'questions' from the selfish, deadbeat vampires:( Commented Dec 21, 2020 at 1:16

14 Answers 14

228

The excessive rudeness has been discussed numerous times before, but there seems to be no answer to it. No matter how many times downvotes are applied, questions closed and comments supplied, more and more rude and insulting questions are posted.

Questions with no error messages. Questions with no inputs/outputs shown. Questions with no apparent debugging effort applied. Questions that are surely homework, but often disguised. Questions that abuse SO contributors as competition fodder. Plain gimme teh codez. Google requests for unique copypasta assignment answers. Questions that seek free tuition in basic language syntax. Questions from supposed 'professional or enthusiast' programmers who are actually vampires, cannot understand the code they have posted, (because they simply copied it), cannot understand comments requesting details, or answers provided, and so require repeated blood supplies. Questions that almost demand that commercial and other work be done for no wage, (this is called slavery).

I'm at a loss for a solution to this omnipresent rudeness:(

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33399439/arithmetic-operators-in-oop-in-c

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33399556/phase-4-on-bomblab

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33399383/multi-processing-vs-multi-threading-in-terms-of-performance-reliability-and-se

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33398679/binary-search-function-c-programming-beginner-student

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33295592/make-layout-and-function-count-total-n-numbers-2-way-please-research

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33393029/c-polynomial-linked-list

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33381760/my-program-compiles-with-no-errors-but-then-quits-immediately-with-the-message

Output of pointer code

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33378984/using-fgets-and-strtok-to-parse-line-in-a-file

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33357139/find-out-which-word-is-the-largest-through-arguments-input

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33355795/append-by-value-in-a-linked-list

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33353205/understand-this-function-and-convert-easily

Built-in mod ('%') vs custom mod function: improve the performance of modulus operation

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33399911/showing-all-the-3-digit-numbers-that-form-3-2-digit-numbers-and-if-they-can-be-s

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33367740/what-are-the-global-scheduling-algorithms-in-operating-system

Unisex bathroom synchronization

How could I debug C++ MPI code?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33390189/how-to-run-two-threads-with-different-priorities-level-executing-different-count

I could keep this up easily, since the rude questions arrive faster than I can post links to them. Instead, I'll try to find some good questions to act on.

It's very difficult to find them.

And answerers don't even get free beer and pizza for their efforts.

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  • 179
    yeah, how DARE WE tell people their questions are bad and not up to the quality of the website that they decided to go to because it was a quality website.... (I love how you turned this question around though ^^)
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 18:49
  • 89
    I'm with @MartinJames on this one. Posting a question on StackOverflow should the last resort for people trying to solve a problem. Before that, they should have done plenty of research, debugged their code as best they can, and should be able to speak intelligently about their question. For complete newbies, this may be quite difficult - but then again, that's the biggest part of learning. Getting SO users to tell you the answer without having attempted solving the problem robs the asker of important learning skills.
    – Mage Xy
    Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 19:44
  • 20
    Also, if the problem is truly so difficult that the asker can't figure it out after all that work, then the asker needs to at least take the time to make the question clear and understandable for people who are volunteering their time to help.
    – Mage Xy
    Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 19:45
  • 33
    @ChongLipPhang that's the easy way out... "Well I could provide it, but it won't help". NO, JUST NO. You say there's an issue? Prove it, provide good clear examples of good, valid questions that are downvoted/put on hold/closed... .Martin, in 5 minutes of edit, found 18 terrible questions..... if the problem is as prominent as you say, you should be able to find examples of it. Looking at the amount of examples, I'm with Martin on this one (not because of rep, but because he backs up what he says with more than "EVERYONE KNOWS IT'S A PROBLEM" )
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 19:48
  • 22
    You are kinda missing the point. The rudeness the OP is asking about is the one where users keep asking the same question over and over again and expect a different answer every time. Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 19:55
  • 11
    It's more and more rude!!! Moderators are allowed to be rude, and there are no sanctions. That's the problem. It's a mafia. People know each other. For instance, on the French StackExchange, I had moderator tools, and I was trying other people to let comment on the questions before downvoting or closing the questions, because the community is not always welcoming, they told me that if I don't find the community welcoming, I could leave... I was just trying to avoid downvotes in suggesting edit and communication between the people with mod tools and users.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 4:42
  • 10
    @Leonard 'The rudeness on Stack Overflow is too damn high' - I agreed, and gave many examples of rudeness. How is that missing the point? As for comments, do you expect that I would comit suicide for offenders? Add comments that are likely to end up out-of-context, quote-mined garbage on Totter/Facepalm as examples of 'hostility/toxicity'? No, not gonna happen. Commented May 12, 2020 at 23:31
  • 7
    @Leonard the title describes only 'rudeness' without further qualification. Rude downvotes? It's an integer number, not abuse. Rude comments? Well, since I can generate a pagefull of links to rude questions in the time taken to find half-a-dozen rude comments, where is the available effort best spent? Commented Jun 1, 2020 at 7:05
  • 9
    The fact that you (Martin James) refer to these poorly formatted questions as "rude and insulting" is very telling. Welcome to Stack Exchange, where askers are second class citizens.
    – user736893
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 19:14
  • 9
    @Devil'sAdvocate I don't care if questions are badly formatted, (except for code sections). I don't mind if the grammar/syntax is imperfect, (except for code sections). I do care about poorly-researched questions that expect SO contributors to do their due diligence searching for them. Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 20:29
  • 11
    There are far more rude and abusive questions posted than comments. I created a list of them with no great search effort. If you consider that attempts to outsource the grunt work of Googling, checking and searching to SO contributers is not rude and abusive, that's not my problem. Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 20:59
  • 7
    This answer is indicative of the terrible state of this website.
    – Loofer
    Commented Jun 30, 2020 at 23:59
  • 5
    I mean the trivial answer to your 'problem' (well the one expounded on in your answer) is that we the old guard have a duty to welcome those new to the platform, and so to frame bad questions as 'rude' absolves us from the care required to turn these users into valued community members. However dismissive answers from the old guard are rude and add to the exclusive and exclusionary atmosphere. Also the type of 'clever' in your answer is off-putting to many.
    – Loofer
    Commented Jul 1, 2020 at 16:10
  • 7
    @Loofer what duty? Why should skilled and experienced developers waste their volunteered time on unresearched, no-effort questions in the, usually vain, hope that, amongst the hordes of homework vamps, the odd one or two might want more than to hand in someone else's work on monday morning? I, for one, will stick with plan 'A': answering good questions and downvoting the bad. Commented Jul 1, 2020 at 20:14
  • 6
    @Leonard I don't care if there are thousands of screaming ranters, (and there probably are). Decades of deadbeats, issuing tens of thousands of homework dumps, all being refused a bent-knee, make a big noise. Still does not mean they are right, which is is why I reject all those mega-anecdotes and insist on evidence, numbers etc. Without such real data, there are only fairy-stories and baseless libel:( Commented Jan 8, 2021 at 16:26
146

I agree with OP. I just came across a recent question which received multiple rude comments from a high-rep user who criticized the OP such that he decided to remove the question. I am saddened by such instances.

One more thing I would like to point out is the downvoting trend these days. If you looked at posts on SO a year or two back, you'd find that the downvoters were courteous enough to comment on the reason. That's missing these days and those at the higher end of the rep table have nothing to lose.

I feel that a user doesn't need to think much before upvoting, but must think twice before downvoting (as is the unspoken rule of any community). Stack Overflow used to be a great place to be because it gave the impression of a gathering of knowledgeable entities. Is it turning into a collection of arrogant people enjoying power and venting their frustration on the helpless? I hope not.

If I have offended you, the reader, then I am sorry. But this is just my two cents looking at the picture from the eyes of someone with a low reputation.

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  • 54
    If you come across any such comments, please flag as "too chatty" or "offensive". They will be removed. Rude behaviour is not allowed on SO, irrespective of reputation. You have recently gained the priviledge to flag at 15 rep, use it well. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 5:22
  • 23
    there is no requirement to comment on voting period. trying to shame those you do not agree with by characterizing not commenting as rude is the real hubris.
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 5:41
  • 5
    Indeed. Demanding that people justify downvotes is itself rude.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 7:24
  • 3
    "If you come across any such comments, please flag as "too chatty" or "offensive". They will be removed. Rude behaviour is not allowed on SO, irrespective of reputation. " It doesn't work, as the rudeness is sometimes shared between several comments from separate question, and is not always something that you could demonstrate. I had bullying users who wanted to demonstrate that everything I was saying was wrong, even when quoting Oxford etc, it's a form of bullying, but can't be demonstrated. Arrogant comments are the same.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:08
  • 3
    For instance, I had a comment "Et t'as même pas imaginé que". That is extremely familiar. The person on her profile says that everyone should be called by the pronoun they like, and called me "tu" several times, when I told that I didn't like this way to talk to me, it's full of disdain (et t'as même pas imaginé que...), but she go on calling me "tu". So, it's pure hypocrisy here. It's not saying a real insult, it's more about disdain, and it cannot be flagged (they are not stupid, you know).
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:12
  • 6
    I had also rude comments after letting comments that a question didn't have to be closed, no reason given. Not my question, but though the queue "if you are not happy with what we do, get off". So, yes, it's very rude and anti-constructive comment, and it's usual here.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:14
  • 4
    we aren't demanding people justify their downvotes, we are trying to get help making a better post and a downvote with no comment offers no help and just frustration.
    – DrCord
    Commented Jan 8, 2020 at 19:51
77

I can't comment on the rudeness of the comments since they have been deleted.

Downvotes without explanations can be a little rude indeed, but I don't think that's the main problem here (7 downvotes seems a bit high, though).

I think this reactions to this question has to do with some people take the "duplicates are bad" principle to the letter, regardless of whether they actually are an exact duplicate or whether another reader could find answers useful.

Many problems share the same root cause but exhibit different symptoms.

I think a number of questions are virtually duplicates of one another, when you already know the answer. Someone with sufficient experience in the field will see the question in a very different context than the asker.

For example, I can imagine the OP of the question you mention may have assumed this problem had to do with tasks or maybe some threading issues, without necessarily knowing much about random generators and seeds. How much research would have been done prior to asking the question is unclear, but the OP could have gone down the wrong path quite easily.

The "close as duplicate" doesn't really allow for cases where you need to explain the same thing, but from a different angle, to make it fit the actual question.

A good test for duplication would be to estimate whether you could write the exact same answer on both questions. This doesn't seem to be the case as often as it would seem.

I know that having the "gold badge duplicate closing super-power" on a couple of tags has made me more cautious before voting to close as duplicates. Before this feature was put in place, I was able to vote to close and merely suggest a suitable duplicate in a comment. The OP would comment back and elaborate why this wasn't. Now a single vote effectively closes the question and prevents the OP from getting any answers (and it can take a while for questions to be re-opened, especially the bias there seems to be against potential duplicates).

Considering that the initial question was reasonably well formulated (and well formatted, with an actual question in the title, even in its first revision), I think you're right it shouldn't have got the negative reception it got.

I just wonder whether the downvotes came from high rep users who have been on SO for a long time (and can feel a bit fed up when they seem to answer similar questions over and over), or whether they came from newer users. Perhaps some of them were led to inflict to other the same negative welcome that could have been inflicted upon them when the started to use the site (mimicking a behaviour that wasn't necessarily good in the first place).

It seems that some users focus their attention on trying to curate SO, without putting themselves in the shoes of the asker (or, more importantly, future readers with the same question). Nothing wrong with that in principle. Downvoting is of course very useful and encouraged by design, but sometimes it comes in the way of helping and making it a good Q&A (with answers that fit the actual question).

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    Thank you for A good test for duplication would be to estimate whether you could write the exact same answer on both questions. it is a very well defined way for flagging as duplicate that I'll use in the future.
    – El Bert
    Commented Mar 12, 2015 at 14:31
  • 11
    I agree. I've got hit with the duplicate hammer a few times. It's often helpful, in a way, as it points you to a root cause and gives you a path to debug - but it's often only loosely related. Or something you've already looked into and is only half the story. Whenever I post questions I try to list similar questions and try explain why I tried the same thing and it didn't work for whatever reason.
    – Joe
    Commented Jun 29, 2017 at 14:05
46

Such perception of rudeness stems from misunderstanding our position in Stack Overflow:

Congratulations. Another unhappy customer.

No, we are are not customers of Stack Overflow.
A customer of Stack Overflow pays for posting Job announcements and having access to their profiles database. A thousand dollars for a month last time I checked. Or for publicity. Or some other services they sell.
When such customer makes a question about the product they have purchased or want to purchase (through e-mail, phone or whatever but not through the Q&A site) they will not be met with rejection. SO employees will even phone call such customer and provide full guidance if their problem is being unable to pay to SO (happened to me).

We are not customers. we are the product. We are what Stack Overflow Sells: our profile if any, our views.
And in exchange for being such product we get one of the best resources in the world for programming professionals and enthusiasts.
Thus we should not expect the customer treatment.

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  • 3
    A question by such customer will not be met with deletion even if it is a bad question. I have never seen this. Do you have an example of this? Commented Jul 25, 2017 at 19:16
  • 7
    @NathanOliver I will have to reword this. I see what you must have understood, but I am not saying that customers get preferential treatment in the Q&A site. Rather was talking "customer questions" (through e-mail, phone or whatever, but not through Q&A). Commented Jul 25, 2017 at 19:19
  • 3
    Ah, OK. That makes a lot more sense Commented Jul 25, 2017 at 19:20
  • 2
    Do you mind changing line breaks to paragraph breaks in your post? (Compare it with other answer.) Paragraph breaks are created by leaving a line empty. Misused line breaks make me unhappy. :(
    – user6655984
    Commented Jul 25, 2017 at 23:31
  • @Alex I don't mind. But where? Should I convert all line breaks to paragraph breaks? Maybe I should convert some line breaks to not break at all and merge into a single line? My paragraph breaks separate what I view as the three sections of my answer: 1.- The quote 2.- What you are not 3.- What you really are and what you get for it. Commented Jul 26, 2017 at 6:57
  • 10
    “Your perception of rudeness stems from misunderstanding your position in Stack Overflow” — No. I was being facetious when using the phrase “customer”. Maybe that didn’t come across. I think your post doesn’t add much, if anything, to the discussion here: while you might have a point, this doesn’t pertain to my complaint. But you also don’t have a point: In contrast to platforms such as Facebook, Stack Overflow has made its priorities, and its commitment to Q&A, very clear and very credible. Commented Jul 26, 2017 at 9:07
  • @KonradRudolph I had upvoted your question, but now that I know you are being partly facetious I'd downvote it if I had the chance. Please, don't waste our time. Commented Jul 26, 2017 at 16:19
  • 7
    @JoseAntonioDuraOlmos Uhm. The question is not facetious. Commented Jul 26, 2017 at 16:23
  • 15
    I think this answer derails the conversation by unnecessarily focusing on a single word in OP's question. What's more, it devalues people by reducing them to a mere product, in order to justify bad behavior towards them. When paired with comments like "please, don't waste our time" above, it basically serves as yet another example of what OP is talking about.
    – Paul
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 6:40
  • 2
    Re " perception of rudeness stems from misunderstanding ... You are the product.": even supposing that to be true, the fact that a person is a product wouldn't make them less of a person in any way whatsoever. Denying any person anywhere their due respect as a fellow human being is rude.
    – agc
    Commented Jun 5, 2018 at 20:14
  • 2
    @agc I agree with you. Everyone should be treated with respect. Don't expect the customer treatment though. A customer's ideas and suggestions would be treated with much delicacy and care as long as they keep paying even if they are BAD (in the customer environment, not saying that customers get such preferential treatment in Q&A site). Do not expect that for the ideas you write in Q&A site. "Your question is so bad that it should be blocked from ever receiving answers unless you improve it" is perceived as rude by many but is standard etiquette in SO. Commented Jun 8, 2018 at 19:59
  • 8
    @JoseAntonioDuraOlmos, No, sorry, that 2nd person "your question... unless you..." style is needlessly (and obliviously) disrespectful. Better style: "This question requires several improvements before it can meet SE publication standards". Please note how the lack of a certain pronoun makes it less about egos and behavior, the better to focus on content.
    – agc
    Commented Jun 9, 2018 at 3:38
  • 5
    @agc I see your point. I'll edit that. I hope nobody thinks I am being rude to myself. Commented Jun 9, 2018 at 6:16
  • We are absolutely the customers of StackOverflow. Customer and product are not mutually exclusive. We pay with our time and effort providing quality Q&A, with our trust that this place will have quality answers, by recommending this site to other people, and in all other ways that can be monetized. Either way, ontological taxonomy of customer vs product is irrelevant. What's relevant is that this site relies on people with questions trusting this place to be worth turning to for answers with up-to-date relevance. The people being called out forget that treating askers poorly has a cost.
    – mtraceur
    Commented Jan 31, 2023 at 0:30
39

Downvotes without explanation can be annoying, but they aren't necessarily rude. You can't infer someone's attitude from them. The same goes for putting questions on hold or marking them as duplicates.

Rude comments are another story. If someone is so frustrated that they feel like making a sarcastic remark then why not just refrain from saying anything? Frustration is not an excuse for rudeness. Having a bad day is not an excuse for rudeness. Providing a free service is not an excuse for rudeness.

Ever watch "House?" Dr. House saves so many lives with his brilliance that his arrogance and hostility are accepted as trade-offs. Should any of us view ourselves that way? Do we feel that helping some people earns us the right to treat others rudely? How does the good we do for one person undo or offset the damage our rudeness may do to another?

I'm not big on shaming anyone. But if someone shames a person for asking a question, even a really stupid question, they deserve 10x that shame right back at them.

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    No disagreement here. Although part of the real problem seems to be that one person's rudeness is another's clear and concise answer, and vice versa...
    – Pekka
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 17:51
  • 3
    True. But I'm thinking of more egregious, obviously sarcastic answers. I'm honestly surprised that this answer is downvoted. I thought that I was just stating the obvious. Perhaps I have to accept that as a correction. In the context of this site rudeness is okay... sometimes? Okay, I guess. But not for me. I have an archaic notion that rudeness is undesirable and I'm going to stick with it. Commented May 10, 2017 at 18:00
  • 9
    What about when someone shames the community by failing to read/follow any of the guidelines or perform any basic research before asking or answering? do they deserve 10x that shame right back at them?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 18:31
  • 5
    Not sure why downvotes are coming; fairly sure what you're saying is largely the consensus around here
    – Pekka
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 18:32
  • 6
    Came to this answer expecting to think, "Oh great, another downvote rant." Pleasantly surprised by this answer. I'm with @Pekka웃 and don't see why this is getting downvotes. Even people asking terrible, off-topic questions is not an excuse to be outright rude to them, just a reason to close their question and explain politely what was wrong.
    – Kendra
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 18:41
  • Asking a question of questionable quality that gets 50 views over 2 years is decidedly not shaming the community. There is a far larger effect on the community of leaving a comment per hour about how any nuanced problem with a question makes them a bad person. Sometimes, a user with high reputation simply means they are highly active, but not necessarily beneficial. Negatively interacting with users at a fast pace clearly creates the implication that we as a community are not welcoming. I strongly disagree with that.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 19:05
  • 2
    @KevinB I understand the sentiment. Some people just need help, others may be lazy or inconsiderate. Sometimes it may be hard to tell. If there's an ArrayList in a .NET question I know it's homework. But we can only control what we do, not what other people do. If we're rude to people because we think they deserve it then once in a while we're going to be wrong. Perhaps I overspoke by saying that we should shame anyone. Commented May 10, 2017 at 19:11
  • 6
    Also, to note, this exact scenario is why "what have you tried" was banned as a phrase (a single flag will still delete it). Read more from Shog9 here: If you don't have the time or inclination to engage in conversation with the author of a post, don't comment - just vote.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 19:13
  • Every person who comes here comes for help, it's the amount of effort put in that differentiates the two. None should be shamed, but we shouldn't confuse being shamed with moderation.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 19:15
  • 3
    @Kendra I think we don't need to explain anything... it was explained eons ago, before they decided to click "ask question". I think that whatever "rudeness" people perceive, is just the exasperation of users that keep voting/closing questions and stuff doesn't improve. It's a systemic problem, not a social one.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 10, 2017 at 22:02
  • 5
    Oh, SE sites, and SO, are definitely not welcoming. I am sorry for anyone who believes that. I dare anyone who has a question to, with a new account, go find the right StackExchange, ensure there are no dupes, then ask it. You will get pummeled for something pedantic. Too broad, too narrow, too opinionated, too off-topic, blah blah... While it is important to maintain quality content, discouraging new users from learning is not a good approach. And downvotes hurt, emotionally. They just do. Come on.
    – dyasta
    Commented May 12, 2017 at 2:17
  • 4
    I went back to the "ask question" page as a new user. It was extremely clear about the effort one should put in before asking a question. I've never asked a question because I almost always find what I'm looking for by searching. But I still wouldn't concede that rudeness is an answer. Sure it might feel good when someone asks a really bad question. But I've seen people trying their best to ask good questions hit with sarcasm. That's just mean. Sometimes mean is just mean and it looks for an excuse to be mean. Commented May 15, 2017 at 13:08
  • 2
    @bitsum that's rubbish... there was a user that created a new account as experiment, and you know what he found? This Experimented with an alternate account to see the new user experience through veteran habits, eyes
    – Braiam
    Commented May 15, 2017 at 13:29
  • 3
    His experiment validates my argument more than dismisses it, and it seems he kept his purview only to answering questions, not asking them. Did you do your due diligence before that comment, in accordance to site rules? :o
    – dyasta
    Commented May 15, 2017 at 18:57
29

Stack Overflow is a great resource, no two ways about it. I find many questions I have already answered.

I would only suggest to anyone before commenting on a question, that if you're frustrated by the question or generally in a bad mood and are going to be curt or overtly hostile, then just leave it for someone else. Don't feel that you have to respond.

If you are going to respond, then as the expression goes, treat the other person with the same level of courtesy you would like to be treated with.

And if taking the time to be courteous is too much effort at the time, leave it till later or don't bother responding, give someone else a chance to respond rather than giving the questioner a hard time.

That's a far healthier community model.

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    The same goes for those who ask a question. What if they don't even bother to read the tour and the Help center?
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 27, 2018 at 9:26
  • 6
    I think this is already covered in the "Be Nice" policy. If it's rude, flag it. Just know the difference between rude and direct. "Your question does not show research effort" is direct, but not rude. Should not be flagged. "You're an idiot to ask that, can't you RTFM?" is rude. Should be flagged. Commented Feb 27, 2018 at 10:12
  • 3
    I mean I can't fault this as it is 100% truth and just common wisdom. And also pretty much implied. This does focus on a different kind of rudeness than the meta post is about however, which is just a misguided view on the standard moderation features of the site that we're all subjected to.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 27, 2018 at 10:16
  • 1
    They don't care, they like to comment when they are in a bad mood, they like to make feel another user despicable.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:18
  • 1
    " If it's rude, flag it." it's more subtile than that. You never come across subtile disdain? Without any swearing words, only a full scorn?
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:19
20

As you can see from the downvote description when you hover your mouse over it, one of the reasons for downvoting is a lack of research. The user apparently did not research how to properly use Random. The documentation talks explicitly about their issue. It's covered in the top answer of How do I generate a random int number? and in basic tutorials. It's covered in the duplicate target and in that question's duplicate target. Also as you say, this is common knowledge among anyone who is remotely familiar with the topic. In other words, this topic has been addressed many times before and information about it is not difficult to locate. The readiness with which the solution was available means that the user did not take the time to familiarize themselves with the topic before asking. That is why the question was downvoted. Nothing about that is rude.

It is, however, considered rude to forego your research effort in this manner and demand personal, one-on-one help. That is not something SO was designed to provide.

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    I don't the issue was downvoting in isolation. Comments played a factor. I can also understand the confusion over the duplicate. The OP was not trying to generate a string. I think the deleted comments were more of an issue, and they created a context. Downvotes are no more rude than upvotes are polite. But combined with the comments I can imagine why someone would perceive rudeness. Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 16:55
  • 3
    @ScottHannen You are entitled to your opinion, but I was responding to the question. The question here explicitly objects to downvoting questions without regard to any context created by comments: "I thought, once upon a time, that downvotes were reserved for bad questions, and deletions for disruptive content", and "But if reasonably well-asked question garners this amount of downvotes in a short time, with an explanation which the OP does not understand, then this feels like abuse."
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 16:59
  • 2
    “and information about it is not difficult to locate” — This is only true if you already know what you’re looking for. Don’t take this the wrong way but in your answer here you utterly failed to put yourself in the shoes of somebody who doesn’t know the answer yet, and is reading the documentation and maybe the tutorials. Researching this topic if you don’t know exactly what to look for is really hard, and this is something that’s systematically under-appreciated by high-rep users on Stack Overflow. Contrary to what you wrote it is patently not a lack of research. Hence my complaint here. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 11:20
  • 6
    @KonradRudolph Are you telling me that someone using the Random class can't consult the official documentation page for it? Or perform this Google search that includes their title terms? Heck, even SO's terrible search function immediately turns up results older than the linked question, and so does Similar on the Ask page. You are severely overestimating the difficulty here. The search terms required were in the question. All evidence suggests the author did not try.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 18:18
  • 3
    @KonradRudolph I have to learn about new libraries all the time. I have to deal with new concepts all the time. I self taught myself basic GIS. No formal education, almost no help from coworkers. All I had was my programming skills, my math education, and the Internet. When I ran into trouble, I started by looking for the terms I thought were relevant, and results from those led to getting a better grasp of how experts think about the issue, which led to more things I could research. That's how people learn: get a basic grasp and then expand on it. SO's expectation is that you have that grasp.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 18:27
  • 4
    @KonradRudolph SO is a poor format to help someone find that basic grasp of an issue. If you don't have the knowledge to understand basically what you're dealing with, there's very little chance a brief answer is going to be of much help. And if in this case, a brief answer would be of help, that answer was already duplicated many places. Your answer just copied the documentation and then explained how to multithread properly. We can't have a new question for every possible combination of two concepts; users have to be able to put two things together and make sense of it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 18:29
10

I completely disagree with the basic premise of this question.

First, the question you link to as an example of this alleged rudeness is a duplicate by your own admission. From your answer to the question:

It’s not directly related, although the root cause is the same. A better duplicate would be this question...

The deletion is a little more questionable, because I think that the post still provides value as a signpost. I voted to undelete it. That being said, deleting it isn't rude - the reviewers just made a decision you disagree with.

Next, the following paragraph implies that people are entitled to answers, that the fact that they need help means that we can't moderate their questions, and that the fact that people will be unhappy with their question being downvoted means that we can't do it.

This plea for help, however, was completely ignored, and the question deleted – after garnering five downvotes.1 Congratulations. Another unhappy customer.

Everyone here wants help, and no one likes having their question downvoted, closed, or deleted. That doesn't mean that it's rude to moderate questions, or that the fact that the OP will be unhappy with the outcome means that we can't moderate their questions. Think about it this way: if we allow low-quality posts to persist, other people who then have to wade through tons of garbage to find what they're looking for will be even more unhappy than the OP whose question was deleted. So, we ultimately have to choose between making one person unhappy and making all future readers who waste their time on the question unhappy. This is unfortunate, but there's really no way around this.

The footnote to this paragraph seems to imply that users are somehow entitled to an explanation of downvotes that they understand:

Downvotes have their place, of course. But if a reasonably well-asked question garners this amount of downvotes in a short time, with an explanation that the OP does not understand, then this feels like abuse.

They're not, for reasons that have already been addressed extensively in the FAQ. The idea that people are entitled to an explanation of downvotes has already been rejected numerous times by the community, as has the fact that downvotes are somehow rude.

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    “the question you link to is a duplicate by your own admission” — No, it emphatically isn’t, and you’re quoting my text out of context to support this claim. In particular, “a better duplicate” doesn’t say that this would be “a good duplicate”. But even if we accept that this would be a good duplicate, that is completely besides the point, since the question wasn’t closed as a duplicate of that question. In other words: if the situation had been completely different you might be right. Commented Feb 21, 2022 at 17:06
  • 2
    Going on, none of your other assertions are correct either. I do not claim that we mustn’t moderate questions, or that doing so is somehow rude, and putting this claim into my mouth is frankly bizarre: it’s completely contrary to my actions on Stack Overflow. I’ve also already made it clear that I do not think that downvotes are fundamentally rude, so it’s unconstructive of you to reiterate this claim. Commented Feb 21, 2022 at 17:09
  • 9
    @KonradRudolph "A better duplicate" implies that it is a duplicate. Also, the fact that they're the same root cause supports the closure as a duplicate. Commented Feb 21, 2022 at 17:15
  • 1
    I don't think the community actually rejected the idea that people should be entitled to an explanation for downvotes. They only reject that it's feasible to mandate providing such an explanation. Commented Dec 19, 2023 at 9:49
7

The question is simply how many downvotes a duplicate question that was posed most likely without any ill intention deserves?

The closing as duplicate is the important thing and the answer with additional comments is a very good answer, although I feel it should be optional. A comment explaining a bit why the cause and the remedy are the same would have been enough.

What remains are seven downvotes that serve no direct purpose.

The question itself is fine. Its only real problem is that it is a duplicate. How much research was done before? Could the duplicates have been found easily before? I don't know.

Please note that even such questions have a value for Stack Overflow, because they represent additonal search terms to come to the same solution.

My idea would be to stop displaying votes and stop voting on questions that are duplicates. It's mostly meaningless. A simple fixed penalty for posing a duplicate question (could happen to the best of us), from 0 to -10 reputation points maybe, should be sufficient. My feeling is that downvotes and closing votes are somehow too much of good things at the same time.

As for rudeness: it's for everyone or for no one. If we want a certain level of courtesy we should insist on it everywhere.

The best is to do what you think should be done but also to move on and take a break before bad feelings occur.

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    Your suggestion is a good one. Indeed, I think that closing it as a duplicate was entirely fine – up until the OP chimed in, saying that the duplicate was not explanation enough (legitimately, as I’ve mentioned). The subsequent downvotes were simply unjustified bullying though. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 9:36
  • 7
    I don't think a penalty for posting a duplicate question is a good idea. There are very few exact duplicates. In addition, if your question just happens to be read a bit too quickly by a gold badge tag holder (maybe having a bad day, it happens to everyone), you could end up losing rep (and -15 is quite high compared with other rep loses in place) even if you'd made a genuine effort.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 11:44
  • @Bruno Then one could set no penalty for posing duplicate questions although this might be encouraging asking without research before. On the other hand the questioner in the linked question lost more than 20 rep because of downvoting. I effectively wanted to cap the negative rep at three effective downvotes. How would you handle downvotes on duplicates of upvoted questions? Isn't this a bit of an ambivalent voting behavior? Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 11:48
  • 1
    AFAIK, it's just -2 per downvote, so -14 for 7 downvotes, but you're right, it's difficult to get a good penalty. I just think closing your question in such a way it can no longer get an answer is often a sufficient penalty.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 11:54
  • 2
    I'm really bad at formulating search queries (I must have some bug in my Google-Fu) and sometimes I'm missing the right terms and/or am unaware of a common root cause or look from another angle on the problem. I don't have a problem with people showing me, that something is a duplicate though - I'm rather grateful. But if such mistakes are penalized I better never aks a question again^^"
    – Rhayene
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 11:45
  • 2
    @Rhayene Then maybe you better never ask a question again. The downvote button descriptions says "unclear, not useful, no research effort". So if you often repeat questions that others have already asked you will certainly attract downvotes (not useful, no research effort). This means your mistakes were and most probably will continue to be penalized on StackOverflow. It's not my invention. This answer here is now two years old. Maybe I should add my idea was to make the downvoting on closed questions unnecessary, not to increase the penalty on average. Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 12:53
0

At the end of this long-ass story, there are a few, actionable & concise points on what to do. In the lengthy paragraphs, I explain where this "rudeness" is coming from.

I'd like to provide an answer from someone that's gotten about 5-6 accounts locked for "posting too much low quality" stuff, so, I was on the receiving end of this so-called hate. Mods, you do what you will with this account, but I'll make a new one in a heartbeat. On my last account, I had ~1k reputation on the main site and 500-600 on other sites and changed myself into a helping member of the community. How? The story goes as follows.

People are not assholes nor are they good -- they just are. I'm a prick myself but I've learned to never assume bad intentions from people as it's very erronous. People, honestly, don't really-really care about others and as such, when you're getting a bad time from a mod, it's not personal. He's just tired of the same shit. Here's the thing, when you're asking a question, you must understand that you're really making a product presentation and as such, you need to think if it looks good, if you seem knowledgeable, but most importantly, to please others' egos - humble. If you're someone just starting out, you can't outright be cold or forget things like saying "I did my best" but most importantly, show some code - show that you've worked on something, because no one likes a beggar that refuses to work. In other words, just understand that you're trying to sell yourself through your question and as such, you should also ask yourself if the question itself is worth selling. Sounds a bit stupid, but it helps me, when I ask my questions, to write it in a way that would benefit both my reputation & the answerer's. Sorry -- no inherent good here and for the most people either...we kinda just answer questions to please our ego.

Back to my accounts, after trying to see what in the mother of sh** I was doing wrong, it just occured to me that, wait a second! On the other side of my question, there's a human who has a bagge with him. Why don't I try to help him with that bagge and also help myself in the process? These guys who answer a lot, I've seen develop a pattern: they no longer answer dumbo questions, because they've seen it all. They won't answer something that isn't interesting.

I do recognize that it aint' as easy, especially when you don't really know what to ask. Honestly, when I was just starting out, a lot of the wording that now is baseline and it's in the background, wasn't even there. I'd call an array a "collection" and so on. Search results wouldn't help since I'd be searching for something else entirely, as far as the system was concerned.

As such:

  1. At least specify you've already searched and / or use wording like "I've tried so many solutions so far, [link here] as well but to no avail.".
  2. Post code. I can't stress this enough. Post at least pseudo-code so people know what you're trying to acheive. You can explain your situation very well, but, as I do, a lot of people just look at the title and then the code and then the details, depending on how complex the issue is.
  3. Images worked for me. I always strive to provide schematics / images of what I'm trying to do, especially if it's UI related.
  4. Don't play smart. This needs a few books to explain but, for better or for worse, humans don't like others who impose themselves as knowledgeable. Others should say that about you. Act stupid & eager to learn. It's a type of character we've learned to love due to religion's influence on society as a whole. Trust me, you'll win more like this in life.

All of the points above will ensure that whoever sees your question doesn't think of you as disrespectful, they know you did your research and you've invested time into the question itself and will be more gentle with you. Unless, of course, you're really asking a dumb, dumb question. Hey - it happens. Just move on.

Remember that both the question & the answer remain here supposdely forever and it'll be seen by thousands of people through the years. It's in YOUR interest to create a place where there's quality interaction because it'll attract knowledgeable people that can answer even more complex questions.

So, I hate that rudeness as well, but we need it to maintain high quality interactions and retain top answering talent.


I've read that down-voted answer about Dunbar's number. While certainly not the whole issue, it is definitely part of the issue. Why is it down-voted? Humans generally don't feel empathy towards anyone that doesn't have a direct relation to us immediately. We might learn to, but when we hear / see about them, we don't. If kids were starving in the next city as they are in Africa, you would do something about it. It takes along campaign of creating a story and hooking you to it for you to care about a topic. This applies to SO. We're faceless knowledge bureaucrats and there's almost no time to build a connection.

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    You might want to read this, especially: Can I simply create a new account?
    – BDL
    Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 8:01
  • 2
    @BDL Eh. I can always start a new one and just wanted to show that if you take a look at your processes, you can learn and become better. Hopefully others will find it useful. In the end, my contributions have made the site a tiny, tiny bit better and I've given back. I was someone rightfully marked by the system, but with potential to overturn. Which really makes me wonder -- how many good progammers could we attract if they learned how to "market themselves"? Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 8:25
  • 7
    I don't disagree with your post here. But please be aware that recreating an account to circumvent a question/answer block might get your hole network blocked. Depending on where you use SO from, this might block the IP-address of the company or school you're in.
    – BDL
    Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 8:39
  • 1
    I'm reading that someone is capable of posting valuable content but it took some learning to that point. As he was learning his attempts were repeatedly rejected to the point where he was told to stop. I can't make any judgment on how much of the problem is where. My impression is that the site isn't as intuitive as we think it is. We just can't see that because of what we already know. Contributing is like a giant software project where you spend a month debugging the environment and everyone who has already worked through it accepts it as normal. Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 13:43
  • 1
    I'm curious as to why, if your last account had over 1k reputation and you had learned how to provide good contributions, you created another one after that?
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 14:50
  • @ScottHannen Exactly how I would put it -- but not for the worse. I guess you can say that you're trying to enter a new group and you need to learn its rules / how they roll. Additionally, this answer was doomed to be down-voted. Someone could've suggested I edit that accounts part out, but nope - I am, without a doubt, sure that the down-votes are for precisely that thing and as such, it's very hard to get your point across if you go against others, especially when it's heavily tied to their beliefs (architecture / optimization questions). Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 21:18
  • 1
    @TylerH The accounts are created with a click. Credentials are never saved, once my cookies expire, it's gone. I did manage to save that last account's but really can't be arsed finding the file, so I just made another. It's not important to me to gain reputation on an account, rather, to get help and be helped as a whole. The world would be nicer if we were all faceless bureaucreats creating & getting value. I despise & reject the idea of ego, but having a lot of reputation gives you more credibility and it is a very, very useful tool. Just remove the names. Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 21:20
  • In contrast, it is my belief, through seeing a lot of value-based systems evolve that, although answering a lot of questions come from egos, we should learn to understand how that allows everyone, you including to grow and perhaps we should think about a person that asks: am I punishing this guy simply because he doesn't play by how I sing or is he someone who doesn't care and asks a bad question?. For me, the answer is nearly always obvious. Seems that for a lot of people, isn't. Remove these questions, sure, but there's no proper process to teach how to ask better. Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 21:22
  • 1
    this presumes the user is from a static IP, which is often NOT the case.
    – Andrew
    Commented Feb 20, 2022 at 11:42
  • @Andrew: Yes, this is a problem. The exact way how SO handles this is not published. I remember a case from 2016 where they basically blocked a whole university. There's a little more information here on SpamRam and how it handles spam. Also related information: 1
    – BDL
    Commented Feb 20, 2022 at 11:53
-17

The rudeness is intimately related to Dunbar's number, an iron law of the human condition in this fallen world. Stack Overflow can mitigate (and indeed has mitigated) Dunbar's number but no one can repeal this iron law.

To explain this, consider the following. Management describes Stack Overflow as a community. Whether the description and the word are literally correct is an etymological point one might debate but, in a Sapir-Whorf sense, the word muddles discussions like the one we are now having—which almost aren't really discussions at all. Too many potential participants, you see.

And that was Dunbar's point, wasn't it?

Consider: why are random drivers on big-city freeways often rude? Answer: because any given random driver will never see you again. He or she has no stake, and neither have you.

This is a fundamental problem a code of conduct can mitigate but never solve. Armies are organized into companies of 150 or so for this very reason, because, on average, individuals treat one another more decently when an intimate network—a thickly woven graph of redundant social interlinks—can reward them for doing so.

Some fallacies are apt to be offered in opposition at this stage of the presentation like, "Everyone has a stake in safe freeways" (true but beside the point), yet I would rather not lengthen the explanation. Given downvotes, few will be reading, anyway—and the longer, the fewer. I hope that the above conveys the gist.

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    Can you explain how Dunbar's number relates to upholding a code of conduct?
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 20:24
  • 1
    @E_net4 Other than to observe that Dunbar's number explains why codes of conduct (a) are necessary and (b) seldom work very well, no, unfortunately, I cannot explain any better than the linked article already does. Most persons in a technical audience will never grasp Dunbar's point. Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg grasped Dunbar's point early, which is why he is a billionaire and you and I are not. As far as I know, the downvotes against this answer tally technical persons who, regrettably, do not grasp Dunbar's point.
    – thb
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 20:36
  • 10
    One would expect you to bridge that idea to the site. Moreover ...Did you really throw in the "you wouldn't understand" argument and assume that the downvotes were because we don't (understand)?
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 20:40
  • 2
    @E_net4 Sorry, mon ami. Not everything will be understood by everybody, not even by downvoters. Stack Overflow has a problem it can mitigate but cannot solve. I have given what I believe to be the most useful explanation in this thread, but it's not a popularity contest. If you study Dunbar, you might learn something important, but you might have to reorient your worldview to do it—which of course I would not ask you to do. Worldviews are hard. I can only show the way.
    – thb
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 20:49
  • 2
    @E_net4 If I keep talking, I'm probably losing, coming across in writing as an arrogant fellow when that is not really how I am. I do believe that I happen to know one particular thing however that most technical persons do not know. They know things I do not know, too, so that's fair, but the thing I know regards Dunbar. Thanks for the colloquy. I'll leave you the last word.
    – thb
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 20:53
  • 15
    But see, of course you're making an pot-stirring statement here. Even if you do not intend to be arrogant, people will perceive you as such with a statement of the form "you should study Dunbar's number, and I won't tell you why or what for because you wouldn't understand it". Unless you actually take your time to put it in terms that we can understand, nothing beneficial will come from this.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 23, 2019 at 21:00
  • 2
    In order to make this answer more useful (or understandable), would you explain what Dunbar's Number is, in the question itself? Indeed, what was Dunbar's point? I appreciate readers can click your links, but if you are using terms that themselves need explanation, perhaps confusion will be the most likely response to this.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 24, 2019 at 22:36
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    "because any given random driver will never see you again." Except that on Stack Exchange, we have identifiable accounts...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 24, 2019 at 23:46
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    Most of the regulars.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 25, 2019 at 8:00
  • 5
    This answer does a good job of explaining why people coming to SO, who are not active contributors, are more likely to be rude, even if it doesn't fail to explain why the regulars who invest in the community, post a lot, and strive to improve the quality of the content of the site, are less inclined to.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 25, 2019 at 23:08
  • 1
    @thb: I think I understand your perspective, but I think you make too much of the idea that something being unpopular makes it automatically correct. I have no view on Dunbar's Number myself, but would suggest that we ought not give in to defeatism.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 26, 2019 at 17:28
  • 1
    This is the best answer as it explains the root cause of the issue. Ironically it also attracted the same ire that contributes to the perceived rudeness. One lesson to draw from this explanation would be to completely anonymize both askers and answerers on this site, including their reputation. That way the playing field would be even.
    – Ocean
    Commented Sep 25, 2022 at 20:13
  • 1
    @Ocean That reasoning is completely off. 1) do not equate constructive counter-arguing with plain ire. 2) As hinted by Servy's command, Dunbar's number actually tells us that the users who have a significant presence in the platform, which includes active curators who regularly vote and flag content, would be less likely to be rude, because they will be facing a greater diversity of users than occasional askers. Reciprocally, it's new users, with their misaligned expectations, which more often show rudeness.
    – E_net4
    Commented Nov 16, 2022 at 17:06
  • 1
    @E_net4thecommentflagger The downvotes alone represent the ire. | You are misunderstanding Dunbar's number. You are trying to say that truck drivers are less likely to be rude because they drive all day and are exposed to lots of different drivers. But that is not what Dunbar's number is about. It's a hard limit on people's ability to from relationships with others.
    – Ocean
    Commented Nov 18, 2022 at 9:12
  • 1
    @Ocean And yet downvotes have nothing to do with socializing or forming relationships. It's a way to rate the quality/value of a post. If you vote out of spite over people, that is your own misuse of the privilege. In the very few places where communication is more open (such as here on Meta, and the chatrooms), the curators who vote frequently on content also generally know to abide to the code of conduct, being respectful and kind to their peers. Note also that quality creates kindness.
    – E_net4
    Commented Nov 18, 2022 at 9:47
-24

So many people here are missing the point, and justifying the rudeness based on a wrong assumption.

Many of you are stuck in the frame of "Oh, many people are asking stupid questions! They are trying to use us like slaves! They deserve to get our downvotes!"

And you move on to justify your rude comments/answers/duplicate.

But no. Rude is rude no matter what. Your action is not justified by a bad question.

No one, absolutely no one deserves to be met by rudeness.

The point of the OP is to think about "How can we reduce rudeness in this community as a whole?". This includes reducing the rudeness on both sides: those who ask and those who answer/comment.

As a community, we must acknowledge both sides of the problem and try our best to discuss and solve,

Right now, many of you are just blaming the one side, especially those who asks questions, as being rude and is even refusing to discuss about the rudeness present in the side of the comments/answerers: marking post duplicate with wrong links, patronizing comments, etc.

Therefore, I agree with the OP that there must be some measures taken to improve the current system.

I would suggest that we have a prompt window with multiple choices when we downvote a question. It can look like the below. This way, those who downvote do not spend too much time (no need to take time to comment), but also those who ask can get a feedback for improvement.


Reasons for downvoting

  1. Duplicate
  2. Unclear explanation
  3. Source code needed, not included

etc.

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    1) The options in your downvote dialog are exactly the ones from the close-vote dialog. At least duplicate is not even a valid reason to downvote. 2) Duplicate closing per-se is not a rude action. I can see your point on rude comments/answers, but please don't throw close-voting in the same pot.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 1, 2020 at 8:03
  • 5
    The idea that we ignore or disregard the matter of rude comments is simply false. Quite recently the company revealed their latest efforts with The Unfriendly Robot. And even before that, the Heat Detector has been very helpful in finding offensive comments to quickly flag away from the site. What you might be concerned about is comments being used to bluntly criticize posts, but that is a grey area in moderation. Better take constructive feedback for what it is.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 1, 2020 at 8:04
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    And as already pointed out by BDL, the final paragraph is conflating true rudeness with moderation actions. Providing reasons for downvoting also collides with this, and will never be mandatory.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 1, 2020 at 8:06
  • 25
    A downvote is not rude. Full stop. Now, of course, actual rudeness is unacceptable. We have a solution for that: flags. If you see a rude comment, please flag it for moderator attention.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 1, 2020 at 9:30
  • 4
    "justifying the rudeness based on a wrong assumption." - no; we are explaining the fact that there is not any rudeness to justify. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:23
-33

Just something I wanted to add to the other answers as a solution for (a small part of) the problem, I think that it is not necessary if you flag a question to then also downvote it for the same reason you flagged it. Flags are for problem questions, downvotes are for questions that are not useful and I find others (and myself sometimes) both flagging and downvoting when I should have just flagged.

Downvotes are (in my opinion) the part that are taken as rude and scare people away rather than just having their question closed. Part of that is because if a question is closed, there is easy access for information on how to fix it. If your question is downvoted, it's very hard to get back above 0 from -2 or less. If your question is flagged, there is a reopen queue just for that. I think that we should encourage users to flag OR downvote instead of doing both to maintain a slightly better community.

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    I completely agree. I do sometimes use a downvote as an incentive for the OP to improve the question. But if I vote to quote a question I won’t generally also downvote it. Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 14:04
  • 1
    I just feel like downvotes are more demoralizing to new users than getting closed, because from closure there is somewhere to go to so things can be fixed. I think that "meta voting" (voting based on your opinion of the question e.g. if it is a stupid question) is now being inappropriately used on the regular site. Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 14:06
  • 14
    is a bad question useful? why can't it be both bad and not useful? or bad and poorly researched? why should we not cast a downvote on a not useful or poorly researched question?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 18:37
  • 1
    @KevinB It goes without saying that a flagged question is bad, and that message is sent by the flag, so we don't need to further frustrate users by downvoting too. Flagging is more useful than downvoting because it leads the user down a path to fix the question. Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 19:02
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    downvoting provides signal to the system so that the system can take the appropriate actions against the post/user. Downvotes on questions push the user closer to question throttling and pushes the question down on the list of questions, both good things. Just like how upvoting does the opposite, which of course is also good. doing nothing at all is a failure to moderate.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 19:03
  • @KevinB Well you have to choose if you would prefer to keep the percieved rudeness up and downvote and flag, or just flag, which will close the question and be more valuable to the op. If 5 other members don't also agree with you then you should just downvote, but downvotes should be for questions inapropriate for the site, they should be for "questions that are not useful" Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 19:18
  • 8
    @thesecretmaster read the tooltip on downvote on questions... last part: "It is unclear or not useful". So YES they should also be downvoted when they aren't useful. To me, I downvote since the rules are clear, there are articles explaining how to ask, the doc exists. Someone not checking the tour, the help center, and posting a question without checking our quality guidelines isn't putting enough effort. To me, these should be downvoted (I get where you are coming from and in the case of well researched questions that should be closed, I DO refrain from downvoting. Not ALL the time I CTV).
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 6, 2016 at 13:14
  • @Patrice Ok, I see what you're saying. I just have a different opinion then you on this. What you're saying makes sense, I just don't agree, so there is no point in arguing. Commented Aug 6, 2016 at 13:16
-57

I agree with OP as well. I have come across these issues multiple times (mostly I just ignore them). But when I get 0 help and just plain rudeness, I google stuff that leads me to posts like this.

Best solution I can think of is when high rep people check low rep questions, adding a warning they have to click on saying something like "I acknowledge the question I am about to read may be a beginner question, the person asking the question may not know that much, and I promise to be nice". Then the up/down votes can keep people at beginner/intermediate/advanced levels, and arrogant high reps can choose to only read advanced questions. Oh and once in beginners range, can't be down voted (unless snarky or rude which requires moderation and votes).

Learning environments should be friendly environments. Our brains learn much better when they aren't in a defensive mode. It's been proven again and again.

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    I guarentee you that said high rep user would be just as rude to another high rep user if they asked such a question.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 4:50
  • 3
    If that happens, he can downvote him to intermediate/beginner. If an entire community is keeping eachother at beginner level, I think most people will acknowledge the problem (and I don't know... possibly change their attitude). Commented May 3, 2017 at 4:51
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    except... the penalty for beign downvoted is far less than the benefit you get from being upvoted. If a small percentage of your contributions are positive, you'll keep gaining rep. Downvotes aren't rudeness/negativity. It's a signal to the system/other people that the question/answer is unclear or not useful. Nothing more.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 4:53
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    if Jon Skeet started a brand new SO Profile with a new name do you expect him all of a sudden start asking "beginner" question?
    – Memor-X
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 4:54
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    @Memor-X if beginner questions go on without being unanswered for x-hours, they can have their own voting system where the question gets voted up to intermediate/advanced. A little imagination goes a long way. Commented May 3, 2017 at 4:55
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    @FiddleFreak you didn't answer the question. do you expect a high rep person who looses all their rep to "not know that much" and must be treated differently?
    – Memor-X
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 5:03
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    If people are being rude in their question, answers, or comments, flag it. downvotes closevotes and delete votes aren't rude, that's moderation, a process that needs to happen, and usually requires more than one person to have any real effect.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 5:05
  • @Memor-X The OP gave more of an opinion(rant) vs an actual question. The only way to respond to an opinion, is to give your own opinion (not answer the "question") as well as possible insight on how to make things better when your opinions agree about a problem. The insight can be agreed/disagreed upon, or better yet spark new ideas for other insights (until something is found that widely is agreed upon). But I think it's overall better to have a discussion if there is a chance things can be made better. Commented May 3, 2017 at 5:37
  • 2
    @FiddleFreak i'm talking about my comments. do high rep users all of a sudden no nothing when they loose all their rep? if not then is it not rude then have higher rep users to acknowledge that all lower rep users don't know anything about programming and must treat them like children?
    – Memor-X
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 5:52
  • 8
    a low rep user is just as capable if putting in effort to debug and research possible solutions before posting a question (or answer) as a high rep user can.
    – Memor-X
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 5:54
  • 2
    You're one of many that has requested downvotes to be (partially) disabled. Are y'all part of a group, or why is it that such a simple system causes so much trouble to you? It's as fair as any other voting system, not even, as downvoters (of answers) lose rep as consequence.
    – Seth
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 6:41
  • 31
    "Learning environments should be friendly environments. " - yes. Stack Overflow isn't a learning environment. A common misconception that makes people post heavily downvoted opinions on meta on posts like this. Please do not make the continued mistake to then interpret that as Stack Overflow or meta being a hostile environment. you're simply mistaken.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 7:48
  • 5
    @FiddleFreak sorry for a very late response, totally missed it. To contribute good questions / answers to the repository that is Stack Overflow. The true mission is to make it so you don't even need to ask a question, it should already be there with good answers. All of that is miles away from having to do with learning, as a user of Stack Overflow you're expected to be able to be responsible for your own education. I.E.: you do extensive research before you contribute a new quality question.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 9:26
  • 1
    Stackoverflow has become awful for people down voting answers by users, who don’t take the time to add their own answers. I have got the point where I don’t bother answering anymore
    – Ab Bennett
    Commented Nov 12, 2017 at 14:15
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    @puk i assure you that was unrelated to the flag. "high rep users" don't see flags, only mods do.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 17, 2018 at 4:45

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