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Sep 1, 2023 at 15:11 comment added Karl Knechtel "Would it cause you to go back and look a little harder at some of the previous complaints?" - if we were really talking about a single police department, maybe. But consider for a moment Stack Overflow has on the order of twenty million registered user accounts. For comparison, all of the United States has fewer than a million cops. Your anecdotes are worthless given this context.
Jun 17, 2023 at 9:00 comment added Karl Knechtel The logic here is so deeply and thoroughly flawed - and in such characteristic ways - that it could only have been devised by, well, the sort of person who goes around looking for putative cases of bigotry to use as a moral cudgel. It also, ironically, demonstrates bigotry towards the Stack Overflow userbase - if the author doesn't believe that SO users are any more bigoted than average, then there is no reason to make the allegations that are made here.
Jun 18, 2018 at 12:21 comment added Félix Adriyel Gagnon-Grenier Interesting @apaul. Up until now, I had mostly read people that say "everyone is guilty (except the new users of course)", rather than "everyone is innocent".
May 2, 2018 at 16:45 comment added DarthFennec @BenVoigt I don't know if I'd say that. "let’s start by [...] flagging and deleting unkind comments now" doesn't seem to be demanding we make troublemakers feel welcome. The blog post mainly seems to be referring to well-meaning new users who don't know what the hell they're doing yet. I think one problem is it's often hard to distinguish between those people and some kinds of problematic users (help vampires, etc), so the former sometimes receive treatment we'd like to reserve for the latter. If the post focused on this issue instead of bringing up the racism/sexism thing, I'd like it more.
May 2, 2018 at 0:54 comment added Ben Voigt @DarthFennec: You missed the real irony... the way to protect vulnerable users from bad seeds is to make the troublemakers feel extremely unwelcome with a swift boot to the posting privileges. We should have a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" attitude toward people who use vitriol (especially without provocation). Yet the blog post advocates for the exact opposite. No wait, that's wrong. It demands that we not only tolerate, but make troublemakers feel welcome "because they're users too".
May 1, 2018 at 21:05 comment added DarthFennec I don't think anyone's pretending that "everyone is innocent". I think the issue comes from the perceived conflation of "racist/sexist/problematic SO users exist" with "the SO community in general has a racism/sexism problem". In the former case, there's no problem: preventing problematic users from existing is impossible; the best you can do is remove them after the fact, and afaict this already happens. In the latter case, it would be a systematic issue with how the site fundamentally works, which is a notion that I would have a really hard time believing without some solid evidence.
May 1, 2018 at 1:10 comment added JohnP @JeroenMostert - As you say, it isn't readily apparent, unless someone chooses an avatar that displays it (And that isn't 100%), or a username (again not 100%). However, people investigate other people. They click on the username, see other sites, and go see what they post there. Or they look at the chat profile, and see where they hang out, and maybe listen in. It's not always explicit, but if someone is active in all facets of SO/SE/Chat, it can be inferred. All it takes is one person with an agenda to make someone else's life miserable.
May 1, 2018 at 1:06 comment added auden Thank you for posting this. Seeing these comments has been...infuriating, to say the least, and I thank you for pointing out the fundamental dilemma in what people are saying here.
Apr 30, 2018 at 22:10 comment added Jeroen Mostert @apaul: I don't want to stretch an analogy until it breaks, so I see it more like this: I see no reason why someone couldn't be the most horrible racist/sexist/homophobe and shouldn't be let anywhere near any reasonable discussion on IPS, and also completely professional and competent when it comes to answering tech questions from people they'd despise on a personal level, if they got to that level. Would that make them "OK"? Of course not, but is cross-site interaction what the blog post used as its basis for drawing conclusions about SO? I don't think so. (But, of course, I don't know.)
Apr 30, 2018 at 21:51 comment added apaul @JeroenMostert To use an analogy, let's say that there was a police department that's been receiving complaints about biased policing, for years, but not much proof was gathered and most folks concluded that these complaints were baseless. Then a few officers from that department were caught in the next town over beating up a gay teenager. Would it cause you to go back and look a little harder at some of the previous complaints? Would you think that those officers should be fired, even though they committed their crimes in the next town over?
Apr 30, 2018 at 18:44 comment added Jeroen Mostert @apaul: but the major fallout (both what you've linked and elsewhere, in what is now a massive explosion of threads all over) is on Meta. The vast majority of people posting on SO aren't going to see that at all, and certainly not in conjunction with actually posting questions, getting comments, answers, votes etcetera. Denying that there's even any possibility of bigotry is silly (and yes, potentially offensive), but it's not the same as actually perpetrating the bigotry. Still, if "I saw this on Meta" was the main input for "it is unwelcoming", that would be good to know too.
Apr 30, 2018 at 18:28 history edited apaul CC BY-SA 3.0
added 146 characters in body
Apr 30, 2018 at 18:26 comment added apaul @JeroenMostert People adding "that is terrible" is a small part of the solution. If you haven't noticed, there are a handful of users who want to deny that these problems exist and berate and belittle anyone who mentions that there might be a problem. Adding "that is terrible" acknowledges that there's a problem, if even in a very very small way. Again that fact that there are those who want to berate and belittle users for mentioning the problem is pretty clear evidence of the problem.
Apr 30, 2018 at 18:04 comment added Jeroen Mostert @usr2564301: I saw that one too, and I fully agree -- but there, of course, it didn't pass silently, it made it onto Meta. The "problem" (?) is that SO is moderated so ruthlessly that it's hard to even see such things, but at the same time, effective moderation is exactly the cure for it, so it would be hard to argue it's not doing its work properly. That's why it's particularly useful to have some numbers/data on how often this sort of stuff happens, and in what way, and from what sort of account, to know what an effective strategy is. Everyone adding "that is terrible" probably isn't it.
Apr 30, 2018 at 17:41 comment added Jongware @JeroenMostert: I would gladly have said "no" because, other than some of the other sites (religion; interpersonal skills), SO specializes in programming and everything else is ruthlessly culled. But this question was an eye-opener for me for how insiduous and sneaky such behavior can be. It may be systemic or not, but even if it's just one such person, it is not something we – as a community – should silently let pass.
Apr 30, 2018 at 15:16 comment added Jeroen Mostert @usr2564301: I can definitely imagine scenarios where just your nickname clearly advertises things that someone with an agenda might use. Gender and even ethnicity can be clearly signaled that way, and it doesn't even have to be definitive for a bigot to latch on to. The question is: does that actually happen, and in particular on Stack Overflow, and what's the size and nature of the problem? "Bigots have been doing their thing in other places on SE so I bet there's a problem" is not sufficient, nor is "people here are sure being defensive".
Apr 30, 2018 at 12:35 comment added Jongware @JeroenMostert: right. As a regular pedestrian, I have A Thing against people who park their bicycles anywhere they want on the sidewalk. Some of SO members surely must be doing that! But, before closing or answering their Python IndentationError question, how can I find that out – without arousing suspicion?
Apr 30, 2018 at 8:48 comment added Jeroen Mostert Let's say there's a homophobe on Stack Overflow. (I'd say it's almost unavoidable that there is at least one, wouldn't you?) How's this going to manifest in a reaction on a poorly formatted question about JQuery if the asker hasn't picked "GayPride McStonewallRiot" as a nickname? The question isn't whether people with biases exist, but how those biases are expressed. Simply observing that there must be people who are biased is not enough to conclude that therefore, there must be a big problem on SO with bias. That's not to say there isn't, but seeing data on it would be good.
Apr 30, 2018 at 8:14 comment added Nathan Tuggy "If this place didn't seem unwelcoming before [the blog post], it most certainly does now." There, I fixed that for you, no thanks needed. (To be a little clearer: the blog post and ensuing discussion have made it rather painfully clear that SO has significant numbers of users on different sides that, if push comes to shove and the issue is forcibly raised, feel mutually unwelcome because of each other's views. You can't satisfy those who are offended by any downvotes on any duplicates at the same time as those who are offended by lousy questions being constantly winked at.)
Apr 30, 2018 at 7:48 comment added Peter Taylor The penultimate sentence reads to me as "When will you stop beating your wife?" IMO it's Not Nice to read a subtext of deceit into a request which prima facie asks for evidence to help OP understand whether and to what extent the claims made are correct.
Apr 30, 2018 at 6:27 comment added Benjol As long as there are problematic people, there will be problematic topics. Discussing those topics on the internet is a hazardous exercise. The strength of my reaction (in any case) is that I don't want those topics imported here, because it is asking for trouble. You may say that they're here anyway, but hidden. I'd say so much the better. I don't want to know if someone writes mean comments because they're racist, or because they're fighting a losing battle against duplicates. The mean comment should get moderated per whatever policy is decided, and the commenter should learn, or leave.
Apr 30, 2018 at 3:38 comment added duplode "They doth protest too much, me thinks" -- While there has been a fair amount of reasoned criticism of the blog post, we have also seen a whole lot of automatic defensiveness and circling of wagons. I was particularly appalled by that one thread with a highly upvoted comment that essentially blames you for the blog post. Is it so hard to smell a conspiracy theory when it is right under one's nose? Where has all the objectivity gone?
Apr 30, 2018 at 2:49 history answered apaul CC BY-SA 3.0