Timeline for A Welcoming Change: What do we have to lose?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
25 events
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May 5, 2018 at 3:53 | comment | added | RyNo | @MartinJames Unfortunately, sometimes a single person can change how someone view others. If someone isn't very familiar with what participation in the platform is like, a single really rude person can set them up for confirmation bias. When you deal with one or two really rude people here, you may make the mistake of interpreting other people's actions as "fitting the pattern". I think there are aspects of SO that make it easy for text to come across more hostile than intended, and that might be something that is worth looking into improvements for. | |
May 4, 2018 at 13:22 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @MartinJames I'm all for brevity, but I've been seeing the possible rudeness (intended or not) behind any given terse comment (and Stack Overflow message) more and more. Small differences in phrasing could make a big difference to the tone of a comment as well as the overall new user experience. I'll concede that being terse might come naturally to some, and users shouldn't be offended by terseness, but that doesn't change the fact that some are offended and simply telling them that they shouldn't be seems unlikely to work (although, even if it would work, we would actually need to tell them). | |
May 4, 2018 at 7:05 | comment | added | Martin James | @Dukeling 'doesn't justify rude comments' agreed. What I have an issue with is when OP's interpret terse and direct and honest comments from skilled and experienced developers, who are donating a litle free time, as 'rude'. Their everyday job invoves terse, direct and honest interactions with soulless machinery and tools with no compassion, and it's understandable that they would treat OP's in a similar fashion. Not defending outright hostility and abuse, but OP's should understand that posting a queston to a skilled developer for handling will get it handled by a skilled developer:) | |
May 4, 2018 at 6:32 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @MartinJames I'm guessing they were bad questions (by Stack Overflow standards), but that doesn't justify rude comments, which I'm sure you can find plenty of recent examples of without looking far. Plenty of people wouldn't want to be part of a community they view as toxic or elitist, even if they can manage to avoid being treated badly. | |
May 4, 2018 at 2:06 | comment | added | Martin James | ...besides, if you friends are now great programmers, they could participate by answering. No need for them to ask questions that they think may be handled badly. | |
May 4, 2018 at 2:01 | comment | added | Martin James | @RyNo I have no compelling reason. If you don't have them to hand, OK, that's fine. Anything from years ago is of minor importance anyway, since SO has changed a lot over time:) | |
May 4, 2018 at 1:59 | comment | added | Martin James | @CharlieKilian 'do you turn around and ask for these anecdotes?' I didn't turn around, RyNo stepped out and mentioned them in front of me:, so I asked to see them:) | |
May 3, 2018 at 21:55 | comment | added | RyNo | @MartinJames I'm going to need a very compelling reason to go ask them to try to dig up credentials for an account they haven't used in years (assuming they even remember them) and find the questions they had issues with, especially when there are other examples of this documented elsewhere on the internet. | |
May 3, 2018 at 21:32 | comment | added | Katie Kilian | @MartinJames Why do you even need to see them? Do you doubt this ever happens? Surely in a site as big as SO, there are plenty of examples to choose from. Indeed, isn't that your whole point in the answer below? In essence you said, "Sure this happens, but how often? We need data to know how big a problem it really represents." Okay, I understand that. But why do you turn around and ask for these anecdotes? It seems to undermine your point from before. This is an example of the disconnect I was talking about. I feel like I'm missing something important about your objection. | |
May 3, 2018 at 18:59 | comment | added | Martin James | @RyNo please supply links to your friends' questions that were treated badly. | |
May 3, 2018 at 18:42 | comment | added | RyNo | I have friends who don’t participate because they had a bad experience with the community when they were still learning how to program. They are now great programmers, and understand SO as a platform better, but still don’t participate because of the “bad, elitist community”. If you’re worried about losing experts, you should be extremely worried about pushing away new users before they become experts, because they’re probably not coming back. | |
May 3, 2018 at 17:52 | comment | added | Martin James | @fbueckert .or worse , they are sticking around, but using burner accounts for each bad question, (and, if denied an answer, each abusive comment). | |
May 3, 2018 at 14:48 | comment | added | fbueckert | @Dukeling These kinds of comments. Sadly, they're not at all rare. What we can do about them, I wish I knew; users without any investment in the site have no incentive to curb their behaviour, because they're not sticking around. | |
May 3, 2018 at 13:22 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @HansPassant What vitriol are you referring to, and how are you recommending we deal with it instead? We need to see the questions to answer it, we need to see the comments that clarify the question to help us answer it and Stack Exchange itself pays a bit more attention to user feedback than Google (but arguably that's still not enough). | |
May 3, 2018 at 12:14 | comment | added | Hans Passant | How many people type in something nasty when a Google query doesn't give them what they want? Nobody really knows, nobody sees it. Why do we have to see the vitriol that clumsy SO users spit out? SO employees apparently think that $100K is not enough compensation to deal with it. Fine, don't deal with it, nothing that meta can't do better anyway. | |
May 3, 2018 at 12:04 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @HansPassant Google search is a machine (loosely speaking). Stack Overflow consists of people. There are some fundamental differences there. If you have a concrete idea that addresses the biggest problems with "the Google model" with people (like the limited resources, motivation and quality control), I'd be curious to hear that. | |
May 3, 2018 at 11:50 | comment | added | CodeCaster | @Dukeling if this is all about nasty comments, then I'm all for weeding those out. | |
May 3, 2018 at 11:49 | comment | added | Patrice | To be fair, paper bags' interfaces are notoriously hard to work with..... But besides that 100% with you | |
May 3, 2018 at 11:48 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | I might agree that we should try to understand exactly why users don't feel welcome, but I see plenty of things on the site (1) that I would hate to have directed at me, (2) that might've led to a positive outcome had it been presented better (again based on how I imagine I would've responded) and where a better presentation (3) would've been easy and (4) wouldn't hurt quality. Take, for example, a rude comment - they don't help and people generally respond badly to them. Such things seem worth addressing even if they aren't the biggest factors of users not feeling welcome. | |
May 3, 2018 at 11:43 | comment | added | CodeCaster | Well of course more (happy) visitors means more advertisers and more revenue, @Hans. They're a for-profit company after all. Of course I'm not against more happy visitors, but at what cost? | |
May 3, 2018 at 11:42 | comment | added | Hans Passant | From its inception, there was always a very strong desire to not make SO a social site. The kind of place where people needed to feel welcome. But instead pursue the Google model, if you use crappy keywords in your query then you get crappy results. Of course you do, nobody thinks that Google is "unwelcoming" when it spits out garbage. But there is forever a push to turn it into Facebook, that it came from SO management is particularly disappointing. They have no idea how to be as successful as Google. We deserve better management. | |
May 3, 2018 at 11:24 | comment | added | CodeCaster | In the very next sentence I describe a particular interpretation of "feeling welcome", namely "in the sense that I could barge in and post in any way I'd like". Apparently when someone doesn't feel welcome, we can stop analyzing what's meant by that, according to the blog, and we need to change everything until everyone feels welcome to do what they want - or at least that's how that claim is being interpreted. I don't agree with that. I want an analysis of what "feeling welcome" means and specific changes to be proposed. | |
May 3, 2018 at 10:55 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker |
Why would you have to feel welcome in order to participate? Why would you want to participate somewhere you don't feel welcome? Feeling unwelcome sucks. Feeling welcome isn't being allowed to do whatever you want (unless the user has a massive sense of self-entitlement, which is true for some), it's about clear, fair, reasonable and well-communicated rules that are consistently and gently but firmly enforced. There are many parts of that where Stack Overflow could improve.
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May 3, 2018 at 8:38 | history | edited | CodeCaster | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 488 characters in body
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May 3, 2018 at 8:31 | history | answered | CodeCaster | CC BY-SA 4.0 |