259

It was hard to accept some of the (valid) criticism, especially the idea that women and people of color felt particularly unwelcome.

[..]

Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us.
                     https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change

For the purposes of a constructive discussion on solving this problem, can we have some concrete examples of how this manifests? I feel that dealing in generalities (e.g. "biases") doesn't really help here, since either the general idea is rejected outright (e.g. "I'm not biased!", "Bias studies don't work."), or everyone interprets the meaning of those generalities differently and we end up discussing different things. On the other hand, we could probably all agree on specific instances of such issues if presented with some.

Are we talking about:

  • Minority groups being treated statistically more unfair than other groups? E.g., more of their questions are getting closed and/or downvoted at the same level of quality?
  • Minority groups experiencing specific slurs or other direct attacks?
  • Minority groups feeling generally less secure about participating in the system as it exists because of their background; in this case, what specifically about Stack Overflow's default modus operandi is troubling to them?
  • Anything else I'm not thinking of?

(Please anonymise specific examples as appropriate. Provide enough context so the example can be judged on its own merits as a fully formed data point.)

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  • 7
    @Cerbrus, but I believe those links are about newcomers experiences. I think that deceze is asking about minority groups experiences specifically.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:20
  • 186
    Problem with people belonging to "minority" groups is that the second something bad happens they will instantly jump to the conclusion it is because they belong to some minority group. I have been in tech for almost 30 years and nothing bad ever happened to me because of my gender. I don't think SO has any problems with minorities, only with enormous amounts of bad and low quality questions posted by all kinds of people...
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:16
  • 108
    I had a package delivery guy park in front of the shared parking space, blocking 16 people from leaving their home. I asked in a friendly tone if he would move the truck two meters and not block the packing space the next time. Immediately he said I was a racist, because I 'attacked' him. The clue of the story is similar to @DalijaPrasnikar: if you belong to a minority group, you might feel offended and immediately think it is because of your race/color/etc. Sometimes it is just that you asked a bad question, or parked in a inconvenient place. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:19
  • 41
    Side note: I’ll point out that I’m not a fan of the term “minorities” in this context, since women and people of color certainly aren’t a minority world-wide, and SO is an international thing. I just use this term here for brevity, and because some groups are in the minority on SO.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:20
  • 119
    While SO tries to be "an international thing", the blog post and the discussion around it are very US centric. The whole idea of minorities and them being mistreated on platforms like SO is very strange to somebody like me living in a, as I hope, civilized country lilke Germany. That's not because there are no minorities here, there are. And not every person is always treated as good as he/she/it deserves. But the self blaming that seems to be en vouge in the US is very irritating to me.
    – user9455968
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 9:58
  • 56
    You won't get a MCVE, because it's stock standard radical leftist virtue signalling, thrown in for good measure. The author, like much of Silicon Valley and American tech, suffers from cultural Marxism, a worldview that consists of only the oppressor and the oppressed. The fact that the oppression is imaginary doesn't matter.
    – nmit026
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:00
  • 19
    @nmit026 Let’s try to postpone such conclusions for a while. If there’s nothing but tumbleweeds for a few days here, then would be the right time to conclude that.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:23
  • 47
    Since the blog post, there is only one minority group for which any examples of hostile bias and abuse has been demonstrated by multiple exampes. That is, actual examples, not 'implicit' feelings or stories. That would be the set of SO volunteer user-moderators. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:56
  • 45
    Maybe a different way to phrase this question would be: Everyone talks about there being a fire. Please, show me the fire.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:01
  • 41
    My take is: Stack Overflow is equally rude and unwelcoming to everyone. People with a lot of privilege (like me) have no problem pushing past that. People without don't have the spare mental energy, and give up, or go anonymous. I only know one female dev in real life who posts here with a female sounding name. A few others post with non-gendered handles. Most that I have asked operate strictly in read-only mode. Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:25
  • 15
    Frankly, I find it very hard to be more unwelcoming to dogs, women or anyone else. For all I know I could be arguing with a squirrel. It's called the internet.
    – pijemcolu
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:34
  • 6
    SO can come over as rude. Case in point a guy yesterday as an account "Robert" he posted his homework with 4 lines saying make it.. to which he got flamed down.. So he then made a new account Rob, copied a small bit of code he had written and all his previous question slightly edited again.. Problem was enough people spotted it was the same and closed it down. (Oddly as spam!) i know Ive felt tetchy with people when you ask questions and their responses "Just give me the answer".. when you needed more info, or you ask them things they dont answer.. its not always easy to be calm and kind.
    – BugFinder
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:13
  • 13
    @SteveBennettㄹIm female ! I chose bugfinder so people dont judge by boobs but quality of content
    – BugFinder
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:17
  • 7
    It was a different discussion, but I wrote about my experience on SO 4 years ago. That's just a small glimpse about what I experienced on the site. It's also a bit of what happens to users.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:35
  • 20
    From blog: " It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate." There is nothing sad about it. If they did not find dup themselves then community, which is much more familiar with this site, will do it. There is nothing sad about it. People should grow thicker skin and not overthink other peoples' comments. Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:24

11 Answers 11

66

To me, the blog post seemed to be referring pretty clearly to marginalized groups being statistically more likely to say they didn't feel welcome to the question about what adjectives they associated with Stack Overflow on the 2018 survey. That's how I'm interpreting the "We know because they tell us" in the block you posted.

I have a close female colleague who uses Stack Overflow as minimally as possible and when asked why, one of the major stories she tells is that she once edited a post in response to comments, only to be attacked for using appeasing wording when she did so. This is a basic gender difference in communication:

In all cases, a communication style turns into a weakness when overdone. A female’s collaborative approach can come across submissive and a male’s directness can be taken as callousness. Men come across as too aggressive when their expansive postures infringe on other people’s personal space, when they have a “death grip” handshake, and when they emphasize status cues to the point where look haughty and uncaring. Women are viewed as weak or passive when they are unnecessarily apologetic, when they smile excessively or inappropriately, and when they discount their own ideas and achievements.

The man verbally attacking my colleague clearly interpreted what she intended as warmth and deference to expertise as excessive weakness/submission and was irritated by that. Whereas a lot of the men who come across as callous and aggressive on Stack Overflow see themselves as being direct and to-the-point. And they're not wrong. They're just judging themselves by a different meterstick than people who aren't comfortable on Stack Overflow use to judge how they're being treated.

There are core values/functions at the root of these different communication styles: maintaining and building relationships vs. focusing exclusively on objective/logical/external problems. Because Stack Overflow has historically classified communication whose function is to address relationship concerns between the posters as being "noise" whereas purely technical answers are "signal", it's created a situation where these 2 values are pitted against each other. The blog post announces a change where they're trying to make these 2 values work together instead:

Let’s reject the false dichotomy between quality and kindness. Quality matters because it means posts can help more people. But a larger, more diverse community produces better artifacts, not worse ones. We need to stop justifying condescension with the pursuit of quality, and we need better tools and queues to help power users trying to keep quality high.

I believe the basic values/communication style conflict here can occur on a cross-cultural level, not just a cross-gender level.

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    Wow if that's the case the blog author was not very clear...
    – rogerdpack
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:49
  • 15
    Definitely there are gender differences in communication. But let's remember that physical presence and body language are irrelevant when we're all just a name and thumbnail typing words into little boxes on a screen to another name and thumbnail. I found SO unwelcoming at first, but that was because of the way I was trying to use it (I had the vague idea it was like a chat forum, or something). It takes a while to get used to it. I still can't believe that there is such a huge community of people that will answer your (clear and specific) questions, well, for free. It's a two-way street.
    – nmit026
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 23:34
  • 36
    @Adair: "Because StackOverflow has historically classified communication whose function is to address relationship concerns between the posters as being "noise" whereas purely technical answers are "signal", it's created a situation where these 2 values are pitted against each other." OK, but... that's what SO is for. So exists to create a database of knowledge. "Relationship concerns" don't appear in textbooks and reference manuals, so they should not appear here. There's no way to have both a database of knowledge and "relationship concerns". Commented May 1, 2018 at 23:50
  • 6
    The question asked for concrete examples. This does not seem to provide an MCVE. That looks more like an extended comment on the blog post. Commented May 2, 2018 at 2:59
  • 2
    @AndreyTyukin The second paragraph introduces a concrete example.
    – duplode
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 3:04
  • 14
    @duplode I think this answer would address the question better if it actually showed what the "appeasing wording" looked like, and what exactly is meant by being "attacked". Commented May 2, 2018 at 3:09
  • 1
    @Michael Your question seems somewhat rhetorical and suggestive. I cannot claim that I've ever actively searched for evidence presented by the "we are all so biased"-people, or that I've studied in any detail what they have to say, so I can't give you any meaningful answer. But I have to admit that I'm not impressed by the "evidence" presented in this thread so far. Especially stuff like "words 'exactly' and especially 'clearly' are warning signs" in the other answer -- what? This is "rude"? What does it have to do with women or people of color? Commented May 2, 2018 at 15:15
  • 3
    @AndreyTyukin: yes, it probably is rhetorical. Thing is, I have tried to search for these things but couldn't find it. Sure, sexism is happening, but I cannot understand such things as "implicit bias". But I know a good way to drive people to insanity: make some accusations, but don't provide any concrete examples; don't say anything that would be falsifiable, so people will have a hard time to respond meaningfully to your claims. I'm accusing the "we are all so biased" people of intellectual dishonesty.
    – Michael
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 15:25
  • 1
    @Michael I can kind-of empathize with what you are saying, but still, it doesn't seem really constructive. The "'we are all so biased'-people" seems like a very vague description of a huge inhomogeneous group of people. The "intellectual dishonesty" part is a rather serious accusation, just like "sexism", and your comment also doesn't quite seem to contain enough evidence to back up this claim. This just heats the debate even more. I don't blame anyone, I just think that it's a complex topic that is known to generate heat and debates, and IMHO should be completely off-topic on SO. Commented May 2, 2018 at 15:51
  • 4
    Prior to the recent blog kerfuffle, I recently suggested the idea that deferential language in questions might contribute to their poor reception. One of the answers, with a graph, shows that this might be correct. The state of that question is now: (1) how can we measure this, and (2) is it best to try to modify this in the UI (filter language that gets into questions) or culturally (ask readers to be more tolerant). I favour the former, as I think it's easier to achieve.
    – halfer
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:04
  • 1
    If I read a self help book, "Programmers Guide to Java" or something a long those lines, should I immediately get upset when the book get's to the point without being apologetic about it?
    – user692942
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 0:43
  • 6
    @AlexHall: "And why do you think that SO should necessarily mimic a property of textbooks, which presumably should lack relationship concerns?" If SO's purpose is to create knowledge, "relationship concerns" aren't part of that. Remember: our primary goal is to serve neither the asker or the answerer; we serve the third person, who is looking for a solution to the problem and finds it here. That person does not care about "relationship concerns" between the first two people. They care about getting the solution; why should they have to deal with irrelevant things to get that? Commented May 4, 2018 at 5:29
  • 5
    @AlexHall: So, it's now "inhumane" not to use "hello" and "thank you"? Sorry; not buying it. These words are pleasantries, but not using them is hardly equivalent to punching someone in the face. Commented May 4, 2018 at 13:16
  • 1
    @AlexHall Do encyclopedias have pleasantries? Do dictionaries? All along, that's what SE's goal has been; cut out the noise, to get at the signal. Pleasantries detract from that goal, and that's why things like please and thanks get removed.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 19:55
  • 3
    Active hostility is the substance of the issue. In the example here, the experience of a woman who was censured by SO users for putting appeasing language or pleasantries in an answer. The issue at hand is being a jerk about SO rules. We can enforce rules without being jerks. Or, I hope we can. SO repeatedly disappoints that hope. I think whether the rules enable us to be jerks or even verily lead us to be jerks is also part of the issue.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 13:36
48

I do not know how the statistical data was collected and end up to saying "women and people of color".

When you say people of color do you mean like me? Black!! So far as I can remember I have never experienced any struggle or hardness in using Stack Overflow due to my color or being African. Maybe being jobless for not qualifying for a lot of native Android remote jobs, but I do not have proof that it is related to my color either.

The data may be categorized in a bad fashion, I think the problem is simply English. People of color, as you have named them, always come from a non-English speaking country. And this is evident when you are reviewing the post from new users.

For instance me, English is my third language, and so many other people, mainly African and Asians, have English as a second or third language. So structuring a question in fluent English can be tricky (plus not knowing Stack Overflow rules).

And by the way, many new users do not even upload their pics on their first days; how will you know their color so as to start the discrimination?

The data may be accurate, but the reason may not be people of color!

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  • 18
    "People of color as you have named them, they always come from a Non-English speaking country" This is categorically not true; there are millions of people of color (possibly billions) born and raised in countries where English is taught as a first language.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:43
  • 5
    Yeah, that is some really clunky phrasing. The problem is likely English cultural conventions as they pertain to the tech world, and that's not a community a lot of people have direct exposure to. Working on fixing the culture by pointing out problems and leading by example is the only way to fix this in the long term.
    – tadman
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:48
  • 10
    So you really think people click to View others profile picture, so as to check their colors and then start discriminating them, And new users mainly do not even upload profile pictures. All in all english can be not the only reason but people in SO do not check profile pictures so as to start downvoting @TylerH
    – Xenolion
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:55
  • 1
    @Xenolion I don't see how your comment is at all related to what I said... did you mean to reply to tadman instead?
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:56
  • 2
    Sure @tadman its more of a cultural issues.
    – Xenolion
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:56
  • 4
    The comment was yours. I know there may be black people in USA, Indians in England etc but majority of them are not there. @TylerH
    – Xenolion
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:59
  • 11
    "When you say people of color do you mean like me? Black!!" - We can't really be sure whether this was the intended meaning, since whether the term "people of color" should refer to all non-whites or specifically to blacks is a bitter culture-war question within the American feminist movement (see e.g. dukechronicle.com/article/2017/09/are-asians-people-of-color). For that reason, I've stuck to just referring to "people of color" in scare quotes when discussing Jay's blog post - I don't know who he means, and posting a Meta question to ask isn't worth the time or drama.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:19
  • 1
    @Xenolion I said nothing about judging people by looking at profile pictures, I simply said there are people of color from English-speaking countries.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:42
  • 1
    I have got you now @TylerH I did not get it the first time.
    – Xenolion
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 20:29
  • 1
    The apartheid regime considered the Japanese as white but not the Chinese (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites). The "people of color"/"african american" expressions used on the US feel really weird from the outside. Oh, and if you're African, the political correct term is Afro African :D
    – brasofilo
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 0:21
  • 2
    I have never heard of "Afro African" before, well then I like it. @brasofilo
    – Xenolion
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 17:43
35

A random splattering of examples.

The precise wording may be different, but the meaning is the same.

We shouldn't be like Bangladeshi call centre workers on SO. This doesn't work.

Speaking with these 2 groups is like being in Syria. You're much better off with group 3 where there's less religion.

There are several ways to say "of course not!" It is not clear which way you prefer.

Do yourself and the [tag] community a favor and do find out why X is so bad.

What makes these kinds of comments more disturbing:

  1. They are often written by valued members of the community with 100k+ rep.
  2. They often attract upvotes, whether +10 or +50. Although this is uncontrollable, it matters because this is what gets emphasized when a reader first sees a post.
  3. When not explicitly rude, they resort to sarcasm which is much harder to moderate.

These are cherry picked, but let's be clear: I am as much concerned about the hundreds of upvotes these comments accrue before they are removed. Yes, comments cannot be downvoted, but it's equally true none of the upvoters flagged for moderator attention.

A user enters a chat room, asks for a disturbing conversation to stop and gets into an argument with the regulars.

A user asks a genuine question, gets an aggressive answer, and subsequently leaves SO.

A user asks a genuine question, gets a sarcastic answer (see the edit disagreement on that answer), and hasn't been seen since.

Disclosure: I posted answers to the last two questions myself, reflecting what I believe are useful responses to the questions posed. So I do believe there are alternatives.

I can append to this again and again. The bottom line is these users aren't unhappy just because they are wrong and fail to admit it (which may well be the truth), but because they are made to feel unwelcome.

I'm sure someone will come in and try and justify each of these one by one. Suffice to say, it's a doomed task. There are hundreds of others.

The point is not these are all rude/abusive. The problem is that these messages could more effectively and sensitively be conveyed with a little empathy.

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  • 3
    Thanks for those examples. For the purposes of an easily digestible MCVE, it'd be great if you could add some more context to those first quotes if you have (though they are damning enough in and of themselves) and quote some relevant parts from those links here (they are a good illustration for what you're saying, but require a click-through to another lengthy thread…).
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:26
  • 10
    While I do agree with some points of the blog post, I do agree also a lot with the counter points by the community. That said, this answer is spot on, sometimes I myself sin of behaving like this, and I do agree we need to change the sarcasm and dismissive comments with everyone (regardless if there is or there is not a minority discrimination problem). Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:59
  • 3
    @AnderBiguri. Thank you for your insight. Yes, and we are all at fault. I have to actively resist the urge to upvote a funny comment when I sense it could also be rude. For example, how is a Bangladeshi programmer meant to feel if he read the first comment? He might laugh, but he might also bemoan the stereotype that is propagated. Why can't the point be made more neutrally? Like "We can't handhold everyone through their first steps on SO."
    – jpp
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:12
  • 5
    I have never seen anything remotely resembling these examples in over ten years. Exactly where did you chderry-pick them from?
    – user207421
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:13
  • 3
    @EJP, Cherry-picking suggests some pleasant imagery :). Trust me, I pick here the better ones because I wish to demonstrate an apparently unclear line. My cherry-picking criteria are: ~10-50 upvotes [SO helpfully highlights these] and unhelpful sarcy / potentially offensive. Yes, I court contention.
    – jpp
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:20
  • 6
    @EJP While the minority specific comments are rarer, you must have seen sarcastic and dismissive comments to newbies everywhere. They appear in the vast majority of bad newbie post. Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:29
  • 25
    FWIW, I can't see the aggression or the sarcasm in the two answers you link (they seem neutral in tone to me), and am unsure how you'd reword them to deliver the same message in a non-aggressive, non-sarcy way. I'm also not sure what particular issue you're pointing to with the first two quotes - that they're derogatory to Bangladeshis/religious people? - and can't see a problem with the third (besides being unsure what it means, out of context). Forgive me, but if these are representative examples, all I've learned is that I have no chance of not being offensive under these standards.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:18
  • 6
    @MarkAmery, I'm not sure if your comment is serious, or whether you are being disingenuous. "It's even "rather important" to know how to change the oil in your car", in my opinion, is irrefutably sarcy and unnecessary. I'd love to have some of our StackExchange English colleagues to go through these posts and determine if they detect any overtones [coming from a disinterested perspective helps here]. Otherwise this will go round and round.
    – jpp
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:21
  • 24
    @jpp I'm sorry, but I don't get it. The oil changing example is a deliberately-constructed clearly-off-topic example of something "rather important" for a person to know, and is there to illustrate that being "rather important" cannot possibly be a sufficient reason for keeping a question open. As far as I can see, it serves that purpose pretty straightforwardly. What's the issue? With the use of such clearly off-topic examples in the first place? Or is there some cultural significance to changing car oil that I'm missing? I really have no idea what this is about.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:24
  • 24
    If this Martijn Pieters answer is considered aggressive, then I feel like I'm clubbing baby seals on the regular. Same for Nicol's answer that you linked.
    – Barry
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:00
  • 2
    @Barry, I guess we'll never know what those users felt. Because they've gone, perhaps forever. That's not because they're terrible users, mind you. They were asking good questions, even though I disagreed with them.
    – jpp
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:23
  • 9
    @jpp Frankly, this question strikes me as quite a bit more hostile than the answers you're complaining about. It's also much more of a demand than a question. But YMMV.
    – Barry
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:29
  • 9
    @jpp: "I guess we'll never know what those users felt. Because they've gone, perhaps forever." Why do you discount the very real possibility that the reason they're gone is not the reception they got, but the actual content of the answer. Do you think TensorFlow guy would still be here if I'd been nicer about telling him "we're not going to lower our question quality because TensorFlow wants to use SO as its documentation site"? Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:47
  • 2
    @EJP agreed, that is the major problem with the the blog post. However the blog post talks about the community and highlights problems with being welcoming, in general, too. Let's not ignore that we do have a problem with this as a community, regarthless of the problematic blog post. Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:23
  • 8
    @jpp I have enjoyed your input on the conversation since the blog post was put up. I see examples like yours above where there is nothing overtly aggressive but the writer's frustration and derision is plain. There is an attitude I encounter working in technology more than anywhere else that "Correct, concise, and explicit is best" is also taken to mean "If you feel bad about what I said to you, that's your second error" and before you know the answerer feels unappreciated, the asker feels disrespected, and communication deteriorates immediately.
    – MackM
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:49
30

I'm a straight white male with about as much privilege as can be given, and I felt INCREDIBLY intimidated on SO when I first started. I felt that I was given no direction or guidance how to behave, what made a "good" question, etc, and I was simply supposed to "know" those things, or be ridiculed for not knowing them. I was so afraid of getting a comment like those I had seen over and over and (in my mind) creating something that would significantly lower the quality of SO that I never posted a question, and when I finally did, I spent several hours combing over other questions to make sure I hadn't missed anything. It came off as very elitist, and there was a wide array of understanding I needed before I was capable of posting a "good" question.

Of course, in the years I've spent on here, I now understand that's not true. A "good" question is simply one that lays out the issues clearly, explains what's been tried, and isn't a duplicate of something easily found (I think it's really silly that we all have to say things like "sorry if this is a dupe, I couldn't find anything about it" because of the harsh blowback when a dupe is posted). I like SO, it's been the most helpful place in my career, and I'm on it probably every day. I think if new users were given a walkthrough of the site, how it works, and what's expected, it would be MUCH more welcoming, and the comments (while still sometimes unnecessarily sarcastic) would be more warranted, since the requirements have been clearly laid out.

With that said, I don't experience much of any discrimination on a day-to-day basis, and perhaps if I did, I would be more likely to assume that any harsh reaction would be about my race/gender/etc and I wouldn't even bother to post. That's a social reform discussion, not for here, but I do think that both above situations are reasons for SO to be more welcoming to all new users.

Just 2 cents from a dude with 53 rep, take it for what it's worth.

7
  • My observations (as subjective as they are) is that if a question is accompanied by all sorts of apology boilerplate, it can get a worse reception. It's meta commentary anyway, and it doesn't belong in a post, given that it is only relevant to the small percentage of readers who sign in and vote. The long tail of readers doesn't need to see this, and it's just noise to them.
    – halfer
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:25
  • 3
    Right and I think you're making my point...I think (some) people feel the need to add all of that in case they've made some mistake about some rule that's tucked away in some blog post somewhere and have seen enough snarky comments to know there won't be much grace if they've missed it.
    – brocky34
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:12
  • I've considered this phenomenon in detail here. The paradox is that you're asserting new users add nervous disclaimers in order to placate the audience, in case they might be hostile, but it has the effect of winding them up, because they interpret it as begging and pleading.
    – halfer
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:26
  • So, I agree with you in the sense that we can't magic away people's nervousness when they ask questions, but I also assert that if beginners use obsequious language, that becomes tiring for helpers who don't like being elevated onto a pedestal for every visit. My link examines some ways in which we could combat that. I take the view that "readers just need to be more understanding" is essentially a policy to do nothing (which is fine if it's the best solution, but I suspect it is not).
    – halfer
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:29
  • (Incidentally, I think this particular theme is more about human psychology than unwritten Stack Overflow guidelines and customs - I have a feeling this will happen in any volunteer community).
    – halfer
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:31
  • I am not sure "elitist" is understood outside of a North American context. Commented Jun 4, 2018 at 17:37
  • SO is just a somewhat harsh place for all of us. It's hits those that are more easily intimidated harder though. Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:01
13

Stack Overflow is an international platform.

The tech industry is full of people of different ethnicities.

A lot of the online tutorials are made by "people of color".

It makes no sense in this particular industry to see prejudice against people of color

The user's identity, race and sex can be easily hidden.

I don't think that this is the problem. Even though it might be interpreted as such.

Your real problem is this mentality.

How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users? (Answer by Anthony Pegram)
In its originally posted, non-FAQ form, which sat untouched for 6 years.

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  • 3
    I'm forced to agree...I don't wanna, but I'm forced to...
    – Makoto
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:09
  • 5
    Although I will say that the answer is largely tongue-in-cheek and mostly sarcastic. The advice that is given there - search, debug, trial, experiment, and then when you've exhausted all of your options, ask us - is spot on, since that's kind of what we assume is happening anyway.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:11
  • 2
    If you have to hide your identity, race, or sex to have a good experience, then there is a problem.
    – Andrew
    Commented Jul 9, 2018 at 18:50
  • 6
    @Andrew If you assume every problem you encounter is due to not hiding said information, there also is a problem.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 13, 2021 at 19:37
  • I know this is a somewhat older answer, but I don't get it. What is the problem about the linked answer? Commented Aug 15, 2021 at 4:46
  • @MisterMiyagi Observing the post's full revision history makes it clear that it gained some "special" attention in 2019 and was a source of controversy for a while. But then again, what Makoto said above, although it is not impossible that a non negligible number of people still have issues with the answer even after its revision.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 8:21
  • @E_net4isoutofcommentflags That people felt the need to reformulate the answer still doesn't say what is wrong with it. Is it the spelling? The hyperbole? The demand for research? Something else I'm missing by glancing huge edit history? Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 8:42
  • @MisterMiyagi Heh, YMMV, but some people had issue with the part where asking a question was an act of "horrible shame", in "vast amounts". Add that to the fact that it attracted lots of comments over time until moderators had to stop them completely. Let's just say that some people had no issue with shamelessly calling this out.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 8:52
7

Examples extracted from https://medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c46414a34a52:

  1. If the error says at line 49, it tells you exactly where the problem lies. If you post 7 lines of code here, we clearly can't tell you what the problem is in line 49.

    This was just posted by a guy with 100K+ rep on a beginner StackOverflow question.

    EQ note: Even this kind of subtly condescending comment can be very discouraging. The words "exactly" and especially "clearly" are warning signs in this context.

  2. Another woman shared this message she received on Stack Overflow after asking for help on a FlexBox margins issue:

    “if you don’t get this…you have no business making a portfolio as a web developer”

  3. My first SO qn got so many downvotes so quickly but no one bothered to/seemed to be able to answer it. Also, at least tell me what I did wrong please instead of just giving a passive aggressive response?? I’ve always thought that it was my problem until I saw this today. So angry

    I once tried to help on an so question and posted a link to a blog by the author of the library in question and why I found it really helpful.

    Next time I logged in I noticed I had developed a really negative score and response.

    Deleted my account and haven't looked back. :(

  4. As another sign of its inhumanity, Stack Overflow discourages greetings and thanks.

    just tried to write an answer on stack overflow, it's a horrible experience, but what really surprised me is that they edited my answer and removed the "compassionate parts"..

    A user with a mere 4,000 reputation edited the tags on my first question and took the opportunity to remove me saying ‘thanks’… That may seem like a tiny thing to some people, but I found it immensely offputting that a stranger was bothered enough by two words of common politeness to silently remove them from my post.”

  5. I'm not sure how to spell it out in plainer English. …

  6. Joke involving a nude girl with comments.

    This response was up for nearly 10 years before it was removed after I tweeted about it.

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    In that first example, the word "exactly" is applicable, IMO. The experienced user is teaching the new user how to fish, instead of just giving them a fish. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:05
  • 25
    @S.L.Barth The point, I believe, is that it would have been just as effective to say "The error message says the error is on line 49. Please tell us which line it is in the code you have posted here".
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:09
  • 23
    I would definitely agree with 2 and 5 being problematic. 1 can be read either way and is very subtle at best IMO. But yes, something to look out for. 3 and 4 seem like run-ins with site rules. I can sympathize with 3, but have no idea what to do about it without sacrificing SO. 6 is… mmm, well… we stopped accepting this kind of content anyway a long time ago. I see it as hardly offensive unless you want to be offended. YMMV.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:09
  • 13
    @deceze I have exactly the same perplexities about that blog post but...hmmm...are these examples about minorities?! (or I just misunderstood your question?) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:14
  • 11
    @deceze What it puts off, I believe, is people who have little self-confidence. Which may or may not be caused by belonging to a minority group. But the underlying issue, I think, is one of self-confidence. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:57
  • 6
    @S.L.Barth I would agree with that. One does need something of a thick skin, or at least particular mentality, to participate on SO. It may not be a problem for you and me, but if it turns off a number of people needlessly and we can do something about it (e.g. some of the harsh comments), we certainly should. I have no idea how to address the experienced issues with downvotes and closures though.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:04
  • 26
    I don't understand how any of the examples here are related to minorities? Were they supposed to be?
    – mason
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:25
  • 6
    Examples 2 and 5 are valid concerns; I think 1, 3, and 4 are invalid. 6 looks like it's from that old joke thread which should be entirely nuked from orbit anyway. But, it also is clear from that thoughtfluencing post that the author has a bone to pick and doesn't consider balance at all. She doesn't account for the fact that there are literally millions of posts on this site and only, what, a couple dozen people who look for stuff beyond newly posted content?
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:30
  • 10
    @deceze wording was harsh on purpose. Any reason a minority reading that should feel hmmm discriminated? I honestly think that if SO is sometimes "rude" there isn't absolutely any discrimination in that. We're equally rude to everyone regardless race, sex, gender, age, culture and religion. If someone wants to feel discriminated (someone mentioned a problem with self-esteem) then, well, it's THEIR problem (and a therapist may help). Treat internet strangers as colleagues, right? Will you use kid gloves with a colleague because she belongs to a minority? That's discrimination. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:13
  • 8
    Imo, most of these are a little... “meh”. I’m used to blunt, to the point communication. One can immediately decide they don’t like the way something’s written, or have another look at what is said instead of how it’s said. Only #2 is problematic, but easily handled by flagging it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:50
  • 5
    I dunno how intrinsically problematic even #2 is. If someone on the home improvement site asked "how deep should the teeth of my bandsaw bite into my hand for a good grip", responses along the lines of you have no business using power tools stop that immediately would be entirely warranted. Depending on how bad the question in #2 was (we don't know), it's entirely possible that the person had no business doing web development and was likely to cause data loss or other serious damage. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:12
  • 8
    @NicolBolas: it’s impossible to prevent harassment from happening. All we can do is deal with it quickly and harshly. If a new user doesn’t understand this, frankly, they need to read the manual on “the internet” once again. The best we can hope for, is a new user seeing: ”well that guy was a douche, but at least ge got banned quickly!”
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 5:32
  • 17
    Every single one of those "examples" kind of prove the opposite of unwelcoming, they prove that how you feel about someone else's actions/behavior is completely your own problem, every therapist and psycologist will tell you that you are the master of your own feelings. If you internalize a down vote or an objective comment that tells you it is impossible to tell what line 49 is out of 7 lines of code, as a personal attack on yourself, that is your problem. and it is a problem that no one here is responsible for.
    – user177800
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:52
  • 8
    @Adriano I agree that framing the discussion as "discrimination" of any sort is bad and counter productive. I'm also not sure in how far this was ever spelled out, implied, or merely read-into. The bottom line pretty much seems to be that things we perceive as rude anyway does cause a number of people (how sizeable we don't know) to turn away entirely, which really should be avoidable. Other things may be a mismatch of expectations and reality, which may be solvable. But yes, it'll be impossible to not offend anyone ever either.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:15
  • 9
    @AdrianoRepetti Of course, main goal is to be nicer to everyone. My main point is, that positive discrimination can be as bad as negative discrimination. Women, or members of any minority group don't need special treatment.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:36
7
  • Anything else I'm not thinking of?

They asked potential users (software developers) how they interact with Stack Overflow.

Such questions might look like:

Do they post questions? If so, how was the experience? If not, why not?

You also ask about various demographic information (age, salary, location, language, culture/race, etc.).

When you get interesting data (like "lots of people find Stack Overflow unwelcoming"), you can go and get more data about that piece.

But along the way, you may notice that (A) many people think it is unwelcoming, and (B) some groups find it more unwelcoming than others.

You can then drill down and find out why it is unwelcoming. But you don't have to be spewing racist slurs for something to be felt more unwelcoming to a minority group than to the majority group.

In Stack Overflow's case, there are lots of low hanging fruit that makes the experience less welcoming. Before you narrow-cast at the problem from a specific subgroup experience, find the low hanging fruit and pluck it. Then iterate.

It isn't hard to see that someone might find asking a question on Stack Overflow is unwelcoming. It disproportionately landing on already marginalized groups within the developer community is not surprising. Observing that this is happening isn't evidence of mass racism or sexism (beyond the background racism/sexism). Regardless of that, it is still evidence of a problem.

It appears their first run at it will be to find unwelcoming parts of the experience and shore them up. The structured help in asking a question may reduce the rude awakening when someone types a "poor" question and hits "ask".


NOTHING in the post you are referring to implies or claims any bias on the part of any member of Stack Overflow. It states that people from group X feel less welcome, and that many people feel unwelcome.

This fact does not depend on members of Stack Overflow trying to make them feel less welcome, being biased, or even any difference in treatment whatsoever. It is an observation.

It manifests in the people who feel unwelcome. It does not require specific targetted behavior on the part of Stack Overflow posters for it to manifest. There may also be such targetted behavior (which you are asking for), but nothing in the plan to reduce this problem nor in the blog post requires such targetted behavior to exist nor be provided.

Only after remedy of the unwelcoming behavior is attempted and appears to work but not on the minorities in question would you then go off and try to find what unwelcoming behavior that is specifically unwelcoming to minorities, beyond a general "blatant racism and sexism is a reason to delete something" pass.

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    Two quotes in particular: " we are (unintentionally) biased ourselves." and "If you’re shaking your head thinking, “not me,” I’d encourage you to take these implicit bias tests". That being said, as I commented on another post, the actual remedies match your idea of "low-hanging fruit". The "bias" thing was just bolted on for extra PC.
    – user3458
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:11
  • "NOTHING in the post you are referring to implies or claims any bias on the part of any member of Stack Overflow. It states that people from group X feel less welcome" +1.
    – Andrew
    Commented Jul 9, 2018 at 18:49
0

This is one of the questions that made me ask this question today:

At the time of writing this, I've received five downvotes.

It's cases like this that make me think I shouldn't contribute to this site anymore. At what point does a question become worthy of being on the site?

If I asked multiple questions that get downvoted a lot, instead of telling me how to improve and giving me guidance, I'd be blocked from asking questions. New people have a distinct disadvantage right from the start.

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    Could you please clarify why this feels unfair to you as a member of a minory group? From the outside it looks like you are being downvoted for asking what is perceived as a trivial question.
    – Norrius
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:07
  • Unless you got a warning from the system, I don't think you're at risk of being question-banned on MSO. Overall your contributions here seem to have been received well. And MSO is more forgiving than the main site, because here votes are also used to express disagreement. Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:10
  • 4
    I'm not talking about minority groups here, I'm saying as a general 'new-ish' user to the site. It may seem trivial to some, but in most cases in life, if you don;'t ask, you don't get. So I asked and seem to have been told that was wrong by the way of downvotes.
    – user7236046
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:12
  • 7
    Just pick any minority group you belong to, everyone belongs to a bunch of minority groups. Bearded polo-shirt wearer with lisp and mole doing part time modelling. 😉
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:15
  • 9
    @deceze so... you are my greatest enemy then, as I am part of Bearded polo-shirt wearer with lisp and without mole doing part time modeling
    – Patrice
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:17
  • 4
    @Patrice Oh I hate that mole-less rubble…!
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:18
  • 2
    @deceze Lisp? C'me on, true beards use C, not Lisp! :-D Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:25
  • 3
    @DanielJames if someone has some more time you may get lmgtfy.com/?iie=1&q=MCVE (which, at least for me, gave me stackoverflow.com/help/mcve as the very first entry). Now, it's true that often an arid comment is enough (and you will quickly delete the question by yourself) but after all votes are the foundation of SO then... Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:34
  • 13
    @DanielJames: "At what point does a question become worthy of being on the site?" Well, here's one suggestion. If you type the question title into Google, if the answer is in the top 10 results, it's probably not worthy of the site. Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:44
  • @NicolBolas The top rated question on SO, has 21k votes, and a lot of assorted google answers. is that question not worthy of this site? - you could say the same about the rest of the top rated questions here. Are all of those unworthy? Maybe the professional/ kind/helpful way to answer this question is to mark it as duplicate and point to a properly answered question
    – Michael B
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:06
  • and if it isn't a duplicate, then it absolutely deserves an answer. Else we should just tell @DanielJames that he simply isn't worthy of being here. To go and play on Quora instead.
    – Michael B
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:09
  • 8
    @MichaelB Er, all the first page results on Google for "Why is it faster to process a sorted array than an unsorted array? " are newer than the question itself, and at least half refers to it. So, not a great example.
    – Frax
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:24
  • 2
    @MichaelB There is a canonical answer on the site already and it is a google search away. Say every user that have the same problem with branch prediction asks a question and waits to be redirected. You now have a million more questions to close as dupe. Are you seriously suggesting this is the right way to go?
    – Passer By
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 3:01
  • @PasserBy I've not actually got the numbers behind the number of dupe closes, but I doubt there's a million. If occasionally a new user sees that, doesn't understand what it means and decides to ask. Why do we need to be so rude - why not post a link to the canonical answer (nobody has) - why not dupe that question to the canonical answer? (nobody has tried) - Why is a moderator answering that question if a canonical already exists? - If it is such a bad question, why hasn't it been closed?
    – Michael B
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 3:53
  • 1
    Actually, this makes my point considerably more eloquently than I ever could - or did.
    – Michael B
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 4:11
-15

The problem sometimes, is that SO can also be quite anti-intellectual. I wanted to post a self-answer Q&A because, after struggling for a while, I finally worked out a solution to my problem. So I wrote up my question with an answer that I felt would help others only for it to get downvoted and voted to close because it was a "link based" question. Seeing as how SO didn't want the Q&A, I have decided to keep all self-documentation to, well... myself from now on.

Special status for questions with self-answers

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    We require that code that's important for answering the question be put into the question, not hidden behind a link. Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:21
  • 2
    @NicolBolas Now here's the problem. 1. this pertains to a plugin, if the plugin dies, goes away or whatever, the question because irrelevant anyway. 2. This is a self-answered Q&A. I posted it because I thought that other people who might be struggling may find it helpful. In no way does anyone else need to contribute. I wouldn't mind comments asking me to add clarity, but just downvoting without any comments is the reason why people think this site is nasty. 3. This is a net loss for SO. I will ALWAYS have a copy of this documentation. Now SO does not. But do keep driving people away.
    – A. L
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:35
  • 5
    "This is a self-answered Q&A." Being self-answered does not and should not exempt people from the rules. It's good that you wanted to provide a useful artifact for others, but on SO, that always starts with a good question. "In no way does anyone else need to contribute." Stack Overflow is not a blog service. Self-answered Q&As are not a way for you to use our site to say whatever you want. They're a way for you to provide useful information within our rules. Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:45
  • 1
    @NicolBolas If it was a bad question and people wanted it be clarified, that's fine. Except I had no input. And I even gave a link where Jeff Attwood states this is encouraged stackoverflow.blog/2011/07/01/… But w/e, maybe something else will come along in the future that's more self-documentation friendly.
    – A. L
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:55
  • 3
    Why do you keep repeating that it was a self-answered question as though that absolves you from something? If your question had been asked and not been self-answered, it would have been closed. That's the rule with self-answered questions; they have to be just like regular questions. You had input; you had your question. You could have made it a good question, and the close reason and comments told you exactly what you needed to do. Commented May 3, 2018 at 5:17
  • 2
    The question didn’t provide enough content in itself to even understand what it is about. It has virtually no useful content/keyword/explanation. That makes it hard for future readers to find/understand/apply. It’s great that you want to self-document things, but then you need to do that with enough context so it’s actually useful. That was the entire issue with it.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 5:23
  • 1
    Your question wasn't well structured - it's very broad, contains a link that may expire, and doesn't really explain the problem at all. But the content in your answer is potentially very useful. And you're right, getting downvoted without explanations (that you find meaningful) is crappy. Ideally someone helps you craft a better question. But in general users take the approach that if you don't write a good question then you don't deserve help. Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:10
  • 3
    @KirkBroadhurst and that's kind of the problem. I wasn't asking for help, I was GIVING knowledge. If the question needed to be expanded on, like giving more code from the actual server file or w/e I would probably have expanded on it. Hell, if someone wanted to edit the question, I would have probably accepted it.
    – A. L
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 0:13
  • One way to avoid the downvotes is to prepare comments in advance (explaining why it is a self-answer - shouldn't really be necessary, but it is) and submitting them seconds after posting the question and answer. Commented Jun 4, 2018 at 17:40
-26

I asked a question on Stack Overflow today in which deceze called my code nonsense.

I admit that I have a lack of knowledge on how things work with respect to some of the syntax, as I program mainly using visual programming and only come to Stack Overflow in the rare times when I am directly using Python or C#. The tags I used (grasshopper, rhino and python) should give context that I probably don't know much about text programming.

So why does this place not only feel hostile to people of the "fairer" gender and/or POC, of which I am both, but also feel unwelcoming as a whole to people who don't deal with text-based programming on a daily basis?

I find it baffling because, within my friends and professional colleagues, the ability to use Grasshopper with minimal text-based programming is lauded. Yet because our experience with text-based programming is minimal, our questions are met with derision, and the duplicity of the reactions stumps me and leaves me at a loss of what to do. This is because I don't understand how to reach my goals, and I can't hope to understand what I'm doing wrong when such harsh language is used in response to my questions.

In short, it is entirely unfriendly to those who use Stack Overflow as a landing page for text-based programming when their main approach is visual programming.

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    I'll be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Can you please rewrite it a little clearly?
    – Script47
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 16:04
  • 12
    You must be referring to this question. I'm not sure where you got hostility from in that context; when looking at that code as a Python professional, I can't really make sense of it either. Yes, there are syntax errors there. No, the fact that you use visual programming languages is not a relevant factor in your specific question. No, it's not clear what any of that is meant to actually be. I get that you're not an expert at Python - no one expects that - but you should be prepared to answer questions of the code you wrote.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 16:18
  • 3
    Can you expand on what you mean by "gh visual programming" and "text based programming"?
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 17:45
  • 4
    If your broad point was that someone was rude or unfriendly on the main site, then you can flag for a moderator to draw attention to either of these things. Use the "flag" device against a question, answer, or comment.
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 17:47
  • gh = grasshopper. we do a sort of programming by linking components. tldr its like actual text based programming coding cuz theres the logic in between components and all, but the thing is that was my exact issue with it all: I had a logic going on, I thought my code would work, but it didn't and I felt like calling what I thought was said logic etc nonsense just because I didnt know the nuances of a variable variable nonsense was pure hostility.
    – Althea C
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 1:37
  • 3
    Althea, as you're new to the site, a couple of tips for using it effectively:1) when replying to someone in comments, in order to notify them you need to put a@ in front of their screen name; 2) Stack Overflow is not a "forum", so there are no automatic notifications; 3) Discussions must be on-topic, please consult the guidelines on Stack Overflow MAIN site about how to ask questions in the HELP. 4) You should NOT ask questions in an ANSWER. This is a Q&A venue: One question and one or more answers. If you wnat to ask something, start a new question. Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 4:10
  • @CindyMeister its a rhetorical question...
    – Althea C
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 4:36
  • 2
    @AltheaC I've tried to rephrase your post a little to make it a bit clearer and to focus more on the points I thought you were making. If that's not OK, you can always revert the changes. I'm truly sorry your experience with Stack Overflow has been so negative.
    – Welbog
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 13:50
  • 1
    "Making sense" is a feature of an idea, concept or meaning that can be reasoned upon, logically defended or else soundly talked about. That something does not make sense is neither an attack nor a slight, it is an evaluation of a concept. Every programmer will produce things that do not make sense. If you start thinking that someone pointing it up are being mean, you will make everyone sad everywhere you will work. Being able to tell things as they are, either nonsensical ou full of sense, is essential if you want to get anything done. Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 15:08
  • 1
    A typical reaction is to ditch Stack Overflow. Part of it is the failure of the base software to set the right expectations. Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 20:04
  • Thanks @Welbog. I also realized from answers to my question is that the rhino environment doesn't provide much info to the error or how to correct it etc. They just tell you where the error is, and I wonder if SO can have a page to teach people how to do a bit more advanced programming. Back when I received the first few answers, I had never heard of variable variables even, or known it was a thing. If I had known, I would have made my question a bit more specific than just saying "help, i have syntax error and dont know why"
    – Althea C
    Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 7:46
-66

The question contains a great example: "And remember that the plural of anecdote is not data"

Dismissing people's experiences because they are not "data" is a great way to make them feel unwelcome. You are saying to them that you consider their experience invalid because they have failed to meet your arbitrary standard of proof that it is a real issue.

Another excellent example of this is Dalija Prasnikar's comment: "Problem with people belonging to "minority" groups is that the second something bad happens they will instantly jump to the conclusion it is because they belong to some minority group." This is another case of preemptively invalidating complaints due to the complainer's minority status.

In fact, we can see a pattern of this on meta right now. The amount of push-back against this blog post, mostly on the basis of denying that there is a problem or claiming that acknowledging the problem victimizes some other group creates a very hostile environment for those affected.

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  • 14
    "arbitrary standard" haha
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:01
  • 80
    "This is another case of preemptively invalidating complaints due to the complainer's minority status." You're way off-target there. The point of those statements is that their being part of "minority <x>" is irrelevant. SO isn't "hostile" to new users because of their (lack of) gender, race, species, sexual preference or whatever. SO is perceived as hostile to new users, by users asking bad questions. Whether or not that user belongs to a minority doesn't matter, and shouldn't be used as a means to make us feel bad about downvoting bad content.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:05
  • 5
    I totally read something else in that sentence, as in don't just query a database, give example(s) that are in context but I guess YMMV. All our words seem futile here and all we achieve is more pain. I'm sorry.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:06
  • 6
    @Cerbrus You are dismissing people who tell you it is an issue in their experience of using the site. I can show you examples of it not being relevant, but then those will be written off as anecdotes. I don't think you did that intentionally, but it's an argument designed by less honourable people to silence such concerns, which has unfortunately been rebranded as "rationalism" to make it more mainstream.
    – shogged
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:15
  • 29
    This answer commits an extremely common error in conflating two different things. First, it claims that an insistence on (statistical) data is used to invalidate anecdotal evidence (and therefore that individual outliers are handled improperly), then jumps to the conclusion that this must be handled by broad, systemic, generalized changes. Making systemic changes entirely on the basis of outliers that are not representative of the wider state is exactly the kind of real error statistics was rigorously formalized to prevent. What we can do is fix up individual cases — separately. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:19
  • 20
    No, I'm saying that the "SO is unwelcoming" issue isn't a race / gender / sexuality / whatever issue. It's an issue of how (harshly) we deal with low quality content, and how that is perceived by the user who's being told "no". We can improve that, but that has nothing to do with the user's physical / mental form.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:19
  • 1
    Put another way, suppose I claim that your observations of a "pattern" of "push-back" creating a "hostile environment" mean nothing to me, since my personal experience doesn't fit them. What standard of proof should I be meeting? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:21
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy I take your word for it that it means nothing to you, in your experience. That's fine, I don't need data. But equally, if you had some complaint I'd look at it, not just say "okay but where is your data?"
    – shogged
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:25
  • 17
    My head is spinning from how meta this answer is… The thing is, okay, now we have a single anecdote about how we dismiss experiences. How are we supposed to act on it? If I hadn’t posted this question then there would be no instance of such dismissal? Even referring to the other thread… this is all in response to trying to talk about the issue. But that just goes ‘round and ‘round in circles. Can we please talk about some concrete case(s) that initially spawned this meta discussion? With enough context to be able to judge the situation?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:51
  • 6
    You are misinterpreting my comment. It is not meant to be the proof complaints are being dismissed because someone belongs to some "minority". On the contrary, it shows people belonging to some "minority" or whatever group tend to interpret all criticism towards them as hostile because they think they have been criticized because they belong to some group and not because they have done something wrong. And of course, not all people belonging to any group interpret criticism in that way.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:14
  • 17
    I think it's unfair to paint this post as dismissive. I read this post as 'ok. We have a problem. How big of a problem is it though?'. I agree tone is an issue. I agree quality moderation is seen as harsh and hostile. But a question that seeks the proper data points to be able to frame the issue correctly? I can't see it as dismissive. The blog post makes this look like a systemic issue that is extremely widespread. Even 1example would be a problem. But I think Stack should react differently if it's one example vs if it's 35% of the users of the site. I feel this is what deceze wants clarified
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:16
  • 3
    @Patrice Yup, what you said. ☝️
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:18
  • 14
    I haven't seen single example where people have been mistreated because of their color, gender, race or whatever... on the contrary, in community where I spend most of my time - Delphi developers - you will hear many complains that SO is hostile place and people are afraid to post questions here. But also most (if not all) of those complaints are coming from "privileged" white males.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:18
  • 1
    @duplode You're right, done. Which obsoletes this answer though…
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:47
  • 2
    @barbecue unfortunately a lot of people are triggered by the mere mention of these issues, because they have been primed to assume it means them personally.
    – shogged
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 16:07

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