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A request to add a read line near the closing -> Off-Topic -> Other with a link to flag as spam.

enter image description here

  • this addresses the confusion people have when using a custom close reason for spam
  • does not interfere with UX flow
  • doesn't clutter the main close vote board
  • will only catch users closing as Off-topic so reduces the likelihood of people flagging as spam because the reason is on the landing page of close vote reasons
  • shouldn't be expensive to develop, adding a line with a link

Along the lines of the spirit of this question Show a warning when someone uses a custom close reason containing the word "spam", without the intrusion of a pop up.

And this answer

But this suggestion address concerns such as this:

This feels like killing a fly with a jackhammer. I can't imagine how many more bad spam flags we'd get, for questionable benefit.

enter image description here

Can we trial this as a feature request to make sure that it doesn't unduly increase the incidence of unwarranted spam flags?

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  • 44
    That circle was never drawn freehand.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 8:08
  • 3
    @ArtOfCode well spotted.. what action should we take?
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 8:11
  • 1
    If the goal is to close spam quickly and with the correct reason then I support the idea here, but I prefer the UI proposed by @Madara. Having a trial of the feature also seems worthwhile.
    – AdrianHHH
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 8:12
  • @AdrianHHH well it's to delete spam quickly really, and help people find how to do that as easily as possible, without causing things to be flagged as spam unnecessarily.. takes breath
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 8:17
  • To clarify: I think this question is a good idea. It makes the "report as spam" facility easier to find for people who recognise that the question needs deleting but who are not thinking about the "flag as spam" facility.
    – AdrianHHH
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 8:31
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    This seems like an incredibly huge change to cater only for the misclicks of less than a single user a day. Granted, it irritates me too when I see CVs on spam posts, but it's not worth introducing a UI change to all 3k+ users...
    – Kyll
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:56
  • What I don't understand is the upvotes on this and on this and even this and not on this ???? anyone know why?
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 14:05
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    @Yvette: People legit like the design of your suggestion. I do, too. But most of us didn't run the numbers to see if it's worth the effort. The scale of people closing-instead-of-flagging is very small based on info in here. Don't pay attention to the couple of the more gruff users who are being dismissive; some folks around here, despite being competent, completely lack social graces. Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 19:08
  • @ConspicuousCompiler well put :)
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 22:18
  • @Kyll it's not less than a single user per day, that is the stats on people flagging with a custom reason that contains the word spam.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 22:25

3 Answers 3

51

As a UX developer, if your UI makes people do the wrong thing, the problem is with the UI, not with the users. Adding more notices and warnings and making them bolder, bigger, etc, won't do anything but make the UI more cluttered.

If anything, I'd much better like something like this

Proposed spam close reason

And have it map to the spam flag behind the scenes, and after the user had "closed" as spam, give him a gentle reminder that the correct answer is reachable through the flag menu, for future reference.

Maybe have it appear only when there's already a spam flag, maybe not, haven't given it too much thought.

The basic idea is that your UI should flow with the user's intentions, and not interrupt them.

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    @Yvette Feel free to post a new feature request and linking to this one. Personally, I don't have it well enough thought out to post something of my own, but if you have a good idea of what it should look like and behave, feel free!
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 7:22
  • Maybe later, will need to think on it also. and also see what the community thinks. I agree it's not the fault of the user.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 7:22
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    But then this will inevitably raise the question of why there are two different ways to flag a post as spam. They look like two different actions, since they are accessed two different ways, so users will assume they are actually different. Not a very good UI design. If you want all the options in one dialog, just put all the options in one dialog. (Except that leads to cognitive overload, so don't do that either.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 8:51
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    Although I like this idea, is it not going to confuse? Pretty much the same impression I get from CodyGrays comment. The user clicks on close, they expect to be presented with legitimate close options. In this case, they will be presented with both types of option, close and flag.
    – Knossos
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 11:36
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    We already have the duplicate entry in the flag dialog for duplicates. And there have been questions as to why there are 2 duplicate flags (see Two different duplicate flags?). It doesn't appear to cause too much confusion Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 11:38
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    So simple, and so logical
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 12:30
  • 4
    We'd also have to make it very clear that deletion by spam flags incurs severe penalty for the poster. I'm afraid that if the close-vote workflow naturally leads to spam-flagging as an option, all sorts of off-topic questions will be flagged as spam. And we know how these flags can accumulate... I can even imagine a very ill-posed NullPointerException question (number 233482425323 of its kind) to be flagged first by grumpy veterans, then by clueless newbies. Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:06
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    I think this is a great idea. In my opinion, it's the best approach given the current system. Isn't the problem that people don't know what flagging is or how to properly handle spam and so they close vote? If that's the case, then, the handful of people that could be confused about having this option in multiple places is a small price to pay for a better way to handle dangerous content. Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:20
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    This seems like it would have a huge impact over moderation only to care about less than a single user a day. There may be a lot more erroneous spam flags and more confusion over what the difference between flags and close votes are. Also, I as an experience user really don't want any of this spam business in my close votes menu only so that a handful of clueless users can see it when they misclick.
    – Kyll
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:54
  • 4
    This. Take away the "close vote" vs "flag" distinction. It's pointless. Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 14:39
  • @Kyll Between 15 and 20% of all posts that were flagged as spam also have at least 1 close vote.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 22:31
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit But not all flags lead to closure... Commented Jul 12, 2016 at 11:03
  • 1
    @immibis: Not all close votes lead to closure. And I'm not necessarily saying they should change how it's all handled behind the scenes, but from a GUI perspective the distinction only fosters confusion and for no good reason. Commented Jul 12, 2016 at 11:15
26

I'm going to strongly oppose this, for a few reasons:

  1. I still haven't seen this cause any real harm, just irritation at people not doing things just right. If we were having real, demonstrable issues with people closing spam (Yahoo! Answers style), then I might be persuaded - but as is, I haven't seen spam get more than a close vote or two.

    Strong meh on that being a real problem.

  2. Stack Overflow already gets enough misguided spam flags, more of them from higher rep users than I'd like to admit. Implementing either the suggestion in the question or in Madara's answer would almost certainly increase the number of bad flags we have to decline.

    I'm willing to do more work declining spam flags if (and only if) we get something in return. I haven't seen enough scenarios where this would make a tangible difference.

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    Then we should be educating users how to user the site, or make the UX clearer. How hard can it be, it's a site for programmers?? O>O
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:37
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    Just curious, do you handle a lot of spammy posts? Because I rarely see those on SO
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:37
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    @Yvette We don't necessarily need to do anything - we need to establish a problem before deciding a solution. Also, I'm not saying that implementing it would be hard - I'm saying that declining all the bad spam flags this would generate would be annoying, with no benefit that I can see.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:39
  • 3
    @AlonEitan Decent number, but a drop in the bucket compared to SO's overall volume.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:41
  • 2
    @AlonEitan, SE itself blocks a TON of spam. There are community projects, such as SmokeDetector (note, Undo and I both assist in development) that allows the spam that does get through.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:41
  • 1
    @Undo I agree declining spam flags is not good, but people are voting to close and spam flagging (usually) with good will, if people who have been active in the site for a while cannot understand how to use the site intuitively, then I regard that as a poor UX
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:42
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    @Yvette It might be poor UX (I'd like to see hard numbers on how often this happens before even calling it that), but if it's not causing issues we shouldn't be spending dev time and moderator time on it. There are tons of little glitches in the moderator tools that actually cause mistakes that I'd rather see dev time spent on.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:43
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    OMG, it's amazing what's going on behind the scenes. Thanks
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 13:44
  • A related study by bluefeet a few months ago
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 15:00
  • well we could trial it Undo and that way we'd know for sure if there was any statistical damage re increase in false spam flags. That wouldn't cause harm would it?
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 15:22
  • @Yvette It'd use dev time. I wouldn't have an issue with trying it, except that I haven't been given a reason to believe it'll make a real material difference for the better
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:34
  • @Undo bluefeet's answer is good.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 22:23
  • Between 15 and 20% of all posts that were flagged as spam also have at least 1 close vote.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 22:31
20

As you mentioned, I looked at a similar request a few months ago and declined that request because there was too much work for so few posts.

I quickly pulled some numbers this morning to see how many posts flagged as spam (and that flag was marked helpful) are also getting close votes. Here is what I found.

month    # Spam Flags   # w/ Close Votes  % w/ Close Votes
-------  -------------- ---------------- -----------------
2016-07   290            39              13.4
2016-06  1046           176              16.8
2016-05   980           122              12.4
2016-04  1088           166              15.2
2016-03  1118           180              16.1
2016-02  1103           202              18.3
2016-01  1295           256              19.7

I was curious about what close votes are being added to these posts, so here is a breakdown of the close reasons:

month   # Spam & Close Posts Dups OffTopic Migrate Other SU SF Typo Debug Rec Unclear Broad Opinion
------- -------------------- ---- -------- ------- ----- -- -- ---- ----- --- ------- ----- -------
2016-07  39                  1    12       0       11     1 1  0     4     3   16      7     2
2016-06 176                  1    56       1       57     6 3  1    16    34   62     45    16
2016-05 122                  1    50       0       45    12 1  0     8    24   40     22    10
2016-04 166                  2    53       1       53     6 4  2    14    26   74     37    15
2016-03 180                  0    61       1       52    13 3  0    13    31   70     30    21
2016-02 202                  1    79       4       64    16 2  0    15    25   71     34    18
2016-01 256                  2    91       3       99    19 5  3    31    39  104     55    29

The close reasons are all over the map, but it appears that most users are flagging or voting to close spam posts as unclear what you're asking.

About 15% of all posts with a helpful spam flag also receives a close vote and I honestly don't think this is a huge problem because the posts are still being removed.

While I understand what you are trying to do, I don't think that we'd alter the existing dialog in the way suggested by your post or by Madara's answer. If we're going to tweak the dialog specifically for spam, then I'd think we'd look at doing a complete overhaul on it and that's not a priority at this time. I'm going to this request.

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    The really interesting statistic would be how many people who voted to close didn't flag. That's the real issue, if present. Few close votes in addition to spam flags is entirely harmless. Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 16:05
  • I'm not sure if I'm reading the table correctly but... between 15 and 20% of all posts that were flagged as spam also have at least 1 close vote?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:10
  • @Braiam That is correct - these are for posts with a helpful spam flag and at least one close vote.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:13
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    That is... worrying. I think we may need the stats about users that closevoted but didn't flagged as spam, as @AndrasDeak suggest.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:15
  • 5
    @Braiam, Why? The posts are still getting removed as spam. On SO, those posts rarely last more than a few minutes. In the time it takes to get 6 spam flags, it manages to pick up a few close votes as well. According to the numbers laid out in the current featured question, those flag numbers line up pretty well with the Close vote/Delete vote route.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:31
  • @Andy undesirable behavior proliferates if left unchecked.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:36
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    As I said @Braiam I don't think this is a big enough issue at this time to devote resources to it. That being said, it could be something we address if/when we do an overhaul of the flag/close dialog.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 17:41
  • Thanks for the answer and it dawned on me last night that a custom reason was not always being used and I was wondering what reason was being used. So you answered that. Thanks again for your efforts.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2016 at 22:22
  • Shouldn't the numbers from this month be normalised (that is, multiplied by 2.6)? Or perhaps to per time unit, e.g. spam flags per day. Commented Jul 12, 2016 at 14:06

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